Very helpful! Reformed Forum and Carl Trueman never disappoint me. As a layperson who dreams of going to seminary to study the history of theology, I am very grateful for Reformed Forum!
A straightforward reading of the OT confirms God is alone. The same reading of the Book of Enoch (mentioned in the NT) confirms God is alone. Psalm 110:1 confirms the status of the LORD and Lord. A straightforward reading of the NT confirms Jesus is God's son, not God, and, that Jesus has a God. God cannot die. Christ did. A straightforward reading of Matthew, Mark, and Dr. Luke (eg. Luke 4:43) document the clear mission statement of the Messiah, and announcement of the future physical kingdom. A straightforward reading of Paul confirms and explains this gospel (of the kingdom). Acts 28:31 sums up Paul's work, the "Gospel of the Kingdom." Yes, I'm thankful to be born now, to be able to read the church father's, to understand the mixing of, and the screwing up of the Apostles simple faith theology, to be able to research, and to be able to access a non-trinitised bible version. In humility, I'm grateful to be a part of the 'radical reformation.' I will avoid calling fellow believers heretics and dangerous, for how I judge will surely be turned back on me. Yes, it is imperative we throw up every bit of orthodox history into the air, and prayerfully catch hold of what makes sense, what is logical and not mystical (3 yet 1, dual natures, burning forever, disembodied spirits etc), because first the natural understanding, then the spiritual. Jesus taught mainly fishermen, farmers, women and children. I plead, do not believe that just because tradition is so old, it is therefore all true, and must be believed, in order to be saved. Finally, I'm thankful that God's will, will be done on earth as it is already completed in heaven.
The verses used by Biblical Unitarians are very clear and straightforward instead of the verses used by Trinitarians which are very vague and seem to say something different.
I watched the video once, all the way through, then 2/3 of the way a second time, transcribing many direct quotes from the three esteemed seminary-trained experts in the law. I mean orthodoxy. I am not a socinian, up front. But Sozzini is only a fig-leaf for the derogation of biblical unitarianism, and yes Mr. Bucey there most certainly is such a thing. Honestly i was appalled at the spirit exhibited in this discussion. Appalled at the identical arguments being employed against the "heretic" unitarians as were used against the "magisterial reformers" by the church in Rome. The elevation of traditional orthodoxy to being the defining requirement to "correctly" understand scripture, regarding doctrines admitted by Mr. Bucey to having been "hammered out over ages," which today we have "received" from the "higher-ups" is quite odious. To have "received" the vocabulary as the over-arching framework by which the uninformed, ignorant, atomistic Bible reader must "properly" understand the scriptures is positively Roman Catholic in its character. The Jews erred in elevating their oral Torah, the Talmud, to equal status as scripture, a practice for which Jesus condemned them as sons of Satan. The Roman church erred in identical fashion, adding to scriptures in their magisterium, their councils, their ex-cathedra proclamations, all conferred with the same authority as scripture. Mormons with their book of mormon, pearl of great price, etc., without which one cannot properly understand scripture. Jehovah's Witnesses with their governing-body and Watchtower association publications, read as faithfully as scriptures, revered as holy by their devotees. Seventh-day adventists with their infallible prophetess Ellen White, whose writings and revelations (many of which were blatantly plagiarized) guide their doctrines and principles as though holding the same authority as scripture. And here you fellows are, stating that, of course the scripture is the only final authority, BUT sola scriptura in insuffient in itself, without proper study of "church fathers," of their fourth-century works, and scholarship of those who further examine the patristic authors! Otherwise, "HOW DARE YOU criticize that which you have not done the grunt-work" to research! Oh, i dare, sirs. Dr. Trueman, the one voice of reason, even he admits that, if he had read the scriptures at 17, he would not have developed the Nicene description of the nature of God, because he would be an "idiot." Even he admits to the inherent difficulty of debating against biblical unitarians, because simply quoting scripture always gives them the upper hand in such a debate. Why? Because "the trinity, classical theism, these are TOUGH, complex doctrines," which make even him say "Why does this have to be so complicated, and confusing??" The scriptures were written to be UNDERSTOOD, sirs. NOT to be filtered through Platonic philosophy, or the orthodoxy of ante-nicene intellectuals, or creeds developed over centuries by the numerous councils, or the orthodoxy of learned ex-catholics declaring what is the acceptable, correct, or proper inderstanding of the scriptures, which are abundantly available to nearly everyone who doesn't live in a muslim theocracy. Are we not supposed to read the Word, without the guidance of the orthodoxy, and the hierarchy, and the traditions of man? Is this really your position? To suggest that we do not have the understanding necessary to adequately question centuries of tradition is exactly what the Roman church said to the reformers, who availed themselves of the exact same practice of questioning church traditions and "orthodoxy." Because all we ignorant masses have as our guide is the "insufficient" understanding of God's revealed word to man, read without "proper" education into its "correct" understanding. Jesus said that unless you become as a child, you will in no wise enter the kingdom. A child is simple, without years of seminary classes (systematics, for instance), without artifice, sophistication, or indoctrination. But having simple trust and faith. These human devices for interpreting scripture within acceptable parameters are as far removed from "simple" as one can travel. How many among Jesus's ekklesia in the first two or three centuries after Christ were educated in systematic theology, or the "right" hermaneutic, or preset denominational exegesis? Answer: NONE. Did they worship a trinity? Answer: NO. Did they understand the human soul to have inherent immortality? NO. Did they understand the wages of sin to be eternal torment? NO. Where were their creeds, "1,500 year documents to establish orthodoxy?" NOWHERE BUT SCRIPTURE. You display the same arrogance as the Second-temple era religious hierarchy in Judea, and the same as the Roman church for a thousand years of doing "great things." Relegating all who disagree with synagogue teachings or Roman church teachings to "heretic," to be anathematized, excommunicated, banished, tortured, or murdered. Such is your arrogance and PRESUMPTION to stand between scripture and the understanding of it, without the programming and indoctrination of ORTHODOXY. I waited overnight, praying for wisdom to know how to respond to this offensive and hubristic video, or if i even should respond. NOBODY who just read the scriptures (and i have, Genesis to Revelation, straight through) would EVER conceive of the trinitarian doctrine, as invented by the patristic writers, filtering scripture through platonism. A childlike trust in scripture, taking the words at face-value, led by the Spirit into understanding, without being led by the vain and arrogant instruction of man, this is purity. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by THE WORD OF GOD. Not hammered-out human orthodoxy, based on doctrine established hundreds of years after Jesus ascended to sit at the right hand of the Most High, one and only Living God. Such mockery of simple believers. Such scorn for the under-educated, unordained ROYAL PRIESTHOOD. I am disgusted beyond my ability to properly communicate.
I have read your whole post and I think from about 9:15-14:00 clearly answers your replies about scripture. Sola scriptura but not solo scriptura, like old mate says at 11:35... tradition serves to safeguard scripture. Besides, it is only a relatively recent phenomena that the 'unordained' even have access to written scripture. Now, what were those poor fellows supposed to do without personal access to interpret scripture the way they want to? They relied on the CHURCH to safely interpret and relay Scripture to them. I agree with you that it is when tradition departs from the corpus of Scripture taken together that there needs to be serious scrutiny ie. Reformation.
David Uebergang Hi David. I salute you sir! For having waded through that entire post...i do tend to run on. Absolutely your observation, about the layman having no access to scriptures in their own languages, until relatively-recently, is inarguable. The problem came in (and still does) when the trusted custodians of the scriptures take it upon themselves to lead the hearers down a particular path of understanding, based on a sectarian interpretation, and an insistence on conformity to this interpretation. The masses have very little choice but to adopt these traditions, whether they be true to the spirit of the word or not. Worse yet, as with the cases of the Jews and the catholics, to elevate human tradition to carrying the same force as the scriptures. I do not say all tradition is harmful. Having a tradition of seeking the ways of the Most High, of talking about his great works and mercy, in our lying down and rising up and walking down the road, and a habit of prayer to the one true God---these are traditions that are given in scripture as traditions to be observed. We are of course well past the time of needing another to read and interpret scriptures for us, and so today we are without excuse if we are letting ourselves be led astray by traditions of men, be they 100 years old (Oneness theology), 150 years old (secret rapture), eternal torment (1500+ years old), or trinity (1600+ years old). Today we have an overabundance of available study tools, bursting forth like a flood, all over the internet. Today we have web tools to study every word of every verse in scripture in its original language, as well as information on idioms and customs common to the period in which these words were written. People of old will not be held to the same standard as we will, because trust and ignorance could scarcely have been avoided by well-intended and sincere devotees down through the ages. To them, they were following the truth as they received it from their trusted shepherds. Today we see hundreds of denominations, and catholicism, and eastern orthodoxy, and mormons, jehovah witnesses, swedenborgianism, universalistas, etc, ad infinitum. Today we have an arsenal of weapons with which to guard ourselves, under the teaching guidance of the Holy Spirit and the wisdom of God. Today, i would recommend that those who desire to know truth should try forgetting everything they think they know, and read the scriptures as though it were the first time, without sectarian bias. Unlikely and difficult, yes, but we must see scripture with fresh and untainted vision, else we are open to the diverse interpretations of man, which confuse and divide. There is but one truth, and we no longer have someone else to blame, if we do not find it. We can't find what we never bothered to search for.
Mikha'El ? Nice to know that someone else in the world can see how wrong eternal torment is! Rare to find a monotheist who also rejects hell, i believe that makes two of us now! 😃 May the Almighty bless you on your path, friend.
Very helpful! Reformed Forum and Carl Trueman never disappoint me. As a layperson who dreams of going to seminary to study the history of theology, I am very grateful for Reformed Forum!
A straightforward reading of the OT confirms God is alone. The same reading of the Book of Enoch (mentioned in the NT) confirms God is alone.
Psalm 110:1 confirms the status of the LORD and Lord.
A straightforward reading of the NT confirms Jesus is God's son, not God, and, that Jesus has a God.
God cannot die. Christ did.
A straightforward reading of Matthew, Mark, and Dr. Luke (eg. Luke 4:43) document the clear mission statement of the Messiah, and announcement of the future physical kingdom.
A straightforward reading of Paul confirms and explains this gospel (of the kingdom). Acts 28:31 sums up Paul's work, the "Gospel of the Kingdom."
Yes, I'm thankful to be born now, to be able to read the church father's, to understand the mixing of, and the screwing up of the Apostles simple faith theology, to be able to research, and to be able to access a non-trinitised bible version.
In humility, I'm grateful to be a part of the 'radical reformation.'
I will avoid calling fellow believers heretics and dangerous, for how I judge will surely be turned back on me.
Yes, it is imperative we throw up every bit of orthodox history into the air, and prayerfully catch hold of what makes sense, what is logical and not mystical (3 yet 1, dual natures, burning forever, disembodied spirits etc), because first the natural understanding, then the spiritual. Jesus taught mainly fishermen, farmers, women and children.
I plead, do not believe that just because tradition is so old, it is therefore all true, and must be believed, in order to be saved.
Finally, I'm thankful that God's will, will be done on earth as it is already completed in heaven.
Thanks am the only Socinianist in Netherlands left
Heresy, repent and trust in Christ or be damned.
@@devothebot3008Heresy is believing in man made three person gods.
Saw "Socinianism" instantly clicked.
Saw "Carl Trueman" instantly knew my choice was correct
The verses used by Biblical Unitarians are very clear and straightforward instead of the verses used by Trinitarians which are very vague and seem to say something different.
I prey that Yahweh helps get rid of the false pagan trinity from this world as fast as possible and Christendom will flourish
@@theguyver4934 the Trinity is biblical bud
@@ajproductions2289 - No it isn't read the holy Bible
@Dom the best - I pray that Allah swt bless Christianity with thousands of people like sir isaac newton
@Dom the best - Are you muslim
I watched the video once, all the way through, then 2/3 of the way a second time, transcribing many direct quotes from the three esteemed seminary-trained experts in the law. I mean orthodoxy.
I am not a socinian, up front. But Sozzini is only a fig-leaf for the derogation of biblical unitarianism, and yes Mr. Bucey there most certainly is such a thing.
Honestly i was appalled at the spirit exhibited in this discussion. Appalled at the identical arguments being employed against the "heretic" unitarians as were used against the "magisterial reformers" by the church in Rome.
The elevation of traditional orthodoxy to being the defining requirement to "correctly" understand scripture, regarding doctrines admitted by Mr. Bucey to having been "hammered out over ages," which today we have "received" from the "higher-ups" is quite odious. To have "received" the vocabulary as the over-arching framework by which the uninformed, ignorant, atomistic Bible reader must "properly" understand the scriptures is positively Roman Catholic in its character.
The Jews erred in elevating their oral Torah, the Talmud, to equal status as scripture, a practice for which Jesus condemned them as sons of Satan.
The Roman church erred in identical fashion, adding to scriptures in their magisterium, their councils, their ex-cathedra proclamations, all conferred with the same authority as scripture.
Mormons with their book of mormon, pearl of great price, etc., without which one cannot properly understand scripture.
Jehovah's Witnesses with their governing-body and Watchtower association publications, read as faithfully as scriptures, revered as holy by their devotees.
Seventh-day adventists with their infallible prophetess Ellen White, whose writings and revelations (many of which were blatantly plagiarized) guide their doctrines and principles as though holding the same authority as scripture.
And here you fellows are, stating that, of course the scripture is the only final authority, BUT sola scriptura in insuffient in itself, without proper study of "church fathers," of their fourth-century works, and scholarship of those who further examine the patristic authors! Otherwise, "HOW DARE YOU criticize that which you have not done the grunt-work" to research!
Oh, i dare, sirs. Dr. Trueman, the one voice of reason, even he admits that, if he had read the scriptures at 17, he would not have developed the Nicene description of the nature of God, because he would be an "idiot." Even he admits to the inherent difficulty of debating against biblical unitarians, because simply quoting scripture always gives them the upper hand in such a debate. Why? Because "the trinity, classical theism, these are TOUGH, complex doctrines," which make even him say "Why does this have to be so complicated, and confusing??"
The scriptures were written to be UNDERSTOOD, sirs. NOT to be filtered through Platonic philosophy, or the orthodoxy of ante-nicene intellectuals, or creeds developed over centuries by the numerous councils, or the orthodoxy of learned ex-catholics declaring what is the acceptable, correct, or proper inderstanding of the scriptures, which are abundantly available to nearly everyone who doesn't live in a muslim theocracy. Are we not supposed to read the Word, without the guidance of the orthodoxy, and the hierarchy, and the traditions of man? Is this really your position?
To suggest that we do not have the understanding necessary to adequately question centuries of tradition is exactly what the Roman church said to the reformers, who availed themselves of the exact same practice of questioning church traditions and "orthodoxy." Because all we ignorant masses have as our guide is the "insufficient" understanding of God's revealed word to man, read without "proper" education into its "correct" understanding.
Jesus said that unless you become as a child, you will in no wise enter the kingdom. A child is simple, without years of seminary classes (systematics, for instance), without artifice, sophistication, or indoctrination. But having simple trust and faith. These human devices for interpreting scripture within acceptable parameters are as far removed from "simple" as one can travel.
How many among Jesus's ekklesia in the first two or three centuries after Christ were educated in systematic theology, or the "right" hermaneutic, or preset denominational exegesis? Answer: NONE. Did they worship a trinity? Answer: NO. Did they understand the human soul to have inherent immortality? NO. Did they understand the wages of sin to be eternal torment? NO. Where were their creeds, "1,500 year documents to establish orthodoxy?" NOWHERE BUT SCRIPTURE.
You display the same arrogance as the Second-temple era religious hierarchy in Judea, and the same as the Roman church for a thousand years of doing "great things." Relegating all who disagree with synagogue teachings or Roman church teachings to "heretic," to be anathematized, excommunicated, banished, tortured, or murdered. Such is your arrogance and PRESUMPTION to stand between scripture and the understanding of it, without the programming and indoctrination of ORTHODOXY.
I waited overnight, praying for wisdom to know how to respond to this offensive and hubristic video, or if i even should respond.
NOBODY who just read the scriptures (and i have, Genesis to Revelation, straight through) would EVER conceive of the trinitarian doctrine, as invented by the patristic writers, filtering scripture through platonism. A childlike trust in scripture, taking the words at face-value, led by the Spirit into understanding, without being led by the vain and arrogant instruction of man, this is purity. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by THE WORD OF GOD. Not hammered-out human orthodoxy, based on doctrine established hundreds of years after Jesus ascended to sit at the right hand of the Most High, one and only Living God.
Such mockery of simple believers. Such scorn for the under-educated, unordained ROYAL PRIESTHOOD. I am disgusted beyond my ability to properly communicate.
didn't read, but hey, you deserve a like for all the effort you had in writing this.
So, not a fan then?
Samuel Tunnicliffe 😄😄
I have read your whole post and I think from about 9:15-14:00 clearly answers your replies about scripture. Sola scriptura but not solo scriptura, like old mate says at 11:35... tradition serves to safeguard scripture. Besides, it is only a relatively recent phenomena that the 'unordained' even have access to written scripture. Now, what were those poor fellows supposed to do without personal access to interpret scripture the way they want to? They relied on the CHURCH to safely interpret and relay Scripture to them. I agree with you that it is when tradition departs from the corpus of Scripture taken together that there needs to be serious scrutiny ie. Reformation.
David Uebergang Hi David. I salute you sir! For having waded through that entire post...i do tend to run on.
Absolutely your observation, about the layman having no access to scriptures in their own languages, until relatively-recently, is inarguable. The problem came in (and still does) when the trusted custodians of the scriptures take it upon themselves to lead the hearers down a particular path of understanding, based on a sectarian interpretation, and an insistence on conformity to this interpretation. The masses have very little choice but to adopt these traditions, whether they be true to the spirit of the word or not.
Worse yet, as with the cases of the Jews and the catholics, to elevate human tradition to carrying the same force as the scriptures.
I do not say all tradition is harmful. Having a tradition of seeking the ways of the Most High, of talking about his great works and mercy, in our lying down and rising up and walking down the road, and a habit of prayer to the one true God---these are traditions that are given in scripture as traditions to be observed.
We are of course well past the time of needing another to read and interpret scriptures for us, and so today we are without excuse if we are letting ourselves be led astray by traditions of men, be they 100 years old (Oneness theology), 150 years old (secret rapture), eternal torment (1500+ years old), or trinity (1600+ years old).
Today we have an overabundance of available study tools, bursting forth like a flood, all over the internet. Today we have web tools to study every word of every verse in scripture in its original language, as well as information on idioms and customs common to the period in which these words were written.
People of old will not be held to the same standard as we will, because trust and ignorance could scarcely have been avoided by well-intended and sincere devotees down through the ages. To them, they were following the truth as they received it from their trusted shepherds.
Today we see hundreds of denominations, and catholicism, and eastern orthodoxy, and mormons, jehovah witnesses, swedenborgianism, universalistas, etc, ad infinitum. Today we have an arsenal of weapons with which to guard ourselves, under the teaching guidance of the Holy Spirit and the wisdom of God.
Today, i would recommend that those who desire to know truth should try forgetting everything they think they know, and read the scriptures as though it were the first time, without sectarian bias. Unlikely and difficult, yes, but we must see scripture with fresh and untainted vision, else we are open to the diverse interpretations of man, which confuse and divide.
There is but one truth, and we no longer have someone else to blame, if we do not find it. We can't find what we never bothered to search for.
The socinians were right!
They weren't "anti reformationists" they were for complete reformation.
Mikha'El ? I'm with you, brother. A dead tree cannot produce a live branch.
Hell Is A Lie
It's nice to know that someone else in the world understands that Messiah was a real human being!
YHWH Bless you!
Hell Is A Lie
And I agree, hell is a lie!
Mikha'El ? Nice to know that someone else in the world can see how wrong eternal torment is!
Rare to find a monotheist who also rejects hell, i believe that makes two of us now! 😃
May the Almighty bless you on your path, friend.
@@hellisalie1138
Jesus is God Almighty.
tota scriptura