BTD10: The 835kph Sailplane and Dynamic Soaring
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- Опубліковано 24 лип 2024
- Title: The 835kph Sailplane and Dynamic Soaring
Speaker: Spencer Lisenby - prototype developer at DSKinetic
Abstract:
Most people wouldn't imagine that the world's fastest radio controlled airplane has no propeller, jet, or any source of propulsion on board. Dynamic Soaring is a unique method of soaring which has enabled radio controlled gliders to achieve speeds in excess of 835kph. We will explore the fundamentals and progress of dynamic soaring and examine the challenges associated with designing, building, and flying an un-powered model airplane at speeds comparable to modern passenger jets. We will also give some thought to practical applications of dynamic soaring and discuss where it could be applied in the future.
Spencer Lisenby graduated magna cum laude from Vanderbilt University with a B.S. in Mechanical Engineering and currently resides and chases wind in Southern California. He has set the world speed record for radio controlled gliders 14 different times and holds the current record of 519mph (835kph) with his 130" Kinetic DP (www.DSKinetic.com).
Recorded at the Big Techday 10 of TNG Technology Consulting GmbH / www.tngtech.com on June 2nd, 2017 in Munich / Germany - Наука та технологія
Wow, the algorithm brought me gold this time. I love finding something unexpected like this that just sucks me in. Fantastic presentation!
If one assesses the quality of videos and subscribes only to quality content and removes trash from one’s UA-cam history, it improves one’s experience. One gets less crashes and more quality. Hard work though.
Good stuff. I was present for a similar lecture by Joe Wurts himself around 2000 when he was visiting Christchurch, NZ for a gliding competition. I remember then trying to DS with my foam flying wing in the Port Hills. Did 1 and a half turns before the wingtips clapped hands. But I was super impressed by the incredible whooshing airspeed sound of soft foam and flappy packing tape from my beatup slope glider made just before it snapped.
This man is god level not only in aerodynamics but in transmitting it. Wow!
so this is a pretty special version of albatross flight...the performance and ruggedness of these aircraft is, well, "freakin' amazing" !
That’s very exciting. As you were describing it i was thinking of the website “how flies the Albatross” and then you moved right into it.
Spencer just went 548 mph yesterday with his Transonic.
any video?!
Is he using the new swept wing he said he would be working on? Does it have the Prandtl Bell Shaped Wing Loading?
@@captarmour Here you go: ua-cam.com/video/4eFD_Wj6dhk/v-deo.html&feature=share&fbclid=IwAR1N9zSOfgNkSFDCq83_T93cvrVMCK1fBvweMmgPpTydLXTA4wVSeEGr3go
@@rmosley111 man o man how is this possible!? beautiful bird!
@@rmosley111 any canard gliders out there?
WOW! I just love this presentation being an engineer and an RC model flyer since I was 12 years old.
So this is interesting, it means you can maintain sailplane practically indefinitely as long as you can find reliable air speed gradient. You could theoretically recover whatever amount of electricity you need from a small RAM-like device and basically keep it there forever until you loose the gradient or the device parts wear down.
As a flying and sailing freak for decades I must say what an excellent lecture. Thanks. Well worth watching.
Very impressive looking at this as an Aeronautical Engineer
He tells the story of doing the best engineering I may have ever seen. I’m impressed
Fascinating! About 40 years ago, I watched a couple of RC gliders flying back and forth across a windy section of a place north of Wollongong, NSW (possibly, the Bulli Pass). It surprised me, how fast they were and although it was quite gusty, maybe they were picking up extra energy by flying in and out of the moving air.
The plane speed can be easily measured with 2.4GHz or 5GHz flying beacon and ground based Doppler shift measuring receiver
Finally, a scientific and serious video about DS. Great too see. I can't believe I am posting the first comment to this. I learned a lot, great job!
A superb presentation. This is the best explanation I've yet heard of DS, and the technical details Spencer presented are fascinating.
@@awuma I love the snap lap concept
Five years just went by.
G’day mate!
Australia
great talk, loving the format
Just discovered this and I find this absolutely fascinating!!
Not only did I fly RC planes back in the day, but I'm seeing some relevance to harnessing wind energy too - probably around tall buildings and cityscapes, as size doesn't really matter in this....
Food for thought! Thanks for sharing this 👍🙏🙏🙏🙏
need to get the Slow-mo Guys in contact with Spencer!!!
What a fantastic talk.. very well presented. I love this kind of stuff.
Great presentation - Spencer knows his stuff!
Right man at the right time and place.
Very nice presentation indeed and congrats for the record.
Marco Maceri,
Head of Flight Physics at Pilatus Aircraft and addicted glider pilot.
548 mph now... this little wing is flying faster than your jet now ?
This IS awesome. Finally analogue basic dynamics that always have existed for longer than us is translated into a physiscs performance that sets world records. Highly educational. Congrats mister! This is exceptional! :)
easiest way to explain DS is a merry go round... you know, those death traps we no longer have on our playgrounds. Imagine someone standing still while you're on it, and every time you come around, that person pushes. Same basic concept, every time the glider shoots above the peak, it picks up more kinetic energy and then dives down in the the calm air for the return trip.
That's a relatable analogy.
Thanks for making this public!
I won’t bet on the DS staying below Mach 1!
Good to see some real science and aerodynamics at work at the hands of some very bright guys.
Until I saw this I thought my favourite subject (helicopter aerodynamics) was top of the tree!
Thanks.
Stunning presentation, and amazing timing. I spend time most days watching absolutely superb natural dynamic soarers between my house and the beach, over the Kahuku public golf course. Mating flights of 6 ft. wing span Albatross, and the not explained few minutes of DS by Wedgetail Sheerwaters before landing at their nests just after sundown are entrancing. The Albatross are majestic flyers, the just over half their size (Meter wing span) Sheerwaters move at far faster air speeds and maneuver tempo, smaller 'circles' (more figure 8s) and stay lower. At sea, this is harder to understand as the scale of the wind gradient is tighter and more turbulent. Over the golf course, the beach front slope and vegetation creates a low level relatively stagnant ground layer of air, and a velocity gradient as altitude increases. Where the birds choose to DS seems far enough back from the edge of the beach incline, and associated bushes, to have no turbulent separation layer. Maybe a beach fire soon will offer enough smoke for visualization of the flows in real time, as opposed to educated guesses. The tradewind is usually 24/7.
I'd grasped the principles, but not the high speed potential now being explored with RC planes. It may be helpful to close a bit of the control gap of remote piloting using what all this DS family of seabirds have, very sensitive tubes on their upper beaks for Nature's Own pitot tubes. Forward facing beak tubes give both wind speed and direction, in relation to the momentary orientation of the beak. The birds don't seem to do much hunting of head angle. A radio link back to an earpiece of the pilot might give both some sense of air speed, and turbulence. Dual channels of sensors and earpieces offer more choices. Musicians offer clear evidence the brain can use several sound channels simultaneously and process information from each independently. Thermal soaring at full scale (and some RC?) uses this for real time non-visually communicated information on both the plane's altitude changes (Altimeter), and the relative vertical movement (total energy probe variometer?) of the air mass the plane is flying in. Maybe more, since I've been out of touch with full scale soaring for over a generation.
dskinetic.com has no info I can find on cost of any of the models, but I probably don't really want to know.
I think AI is going to solve the control problem, there is no way a human pilot is going to process all the inputs necessary in real time for DS .
If you want to visualize flow at a soaring site, what about mylar streamers on a pole?
@@myotherusername9224 AI is a current popular meme, but is completely unnecessary for 'drone piloting', self-piloting Unmanned Air Vehicles. Several UA-cam videos discuss programmable flight control systems with affordable hobby computer cores, I'll post the name when the memory returns. May be mentioned in earlier comments on this video? AI offers learning 'self-programming', which may be advantageous. I suspect AI is more valuable where the basic physics or other principles are less understood, or situations are too complex for most human mental modeling. Flight in most regimes is not one of these areas. Not saying AI doesn't offer optimization potential.
@bill taylor. I like this idea of wind sensors, and it would be easy/cheap to implement, akin to negative feedback, into servo sensors/control. Almost like ABS on a road vehicle is a 'fit and forget' as it does its thing only when needed and is way faster than mortal ability. Brilliant. The idea of feedback to pilot is also a genius suggestion, not just 'ears' but also force transducers that would give instant physical feedback of wing dynamic loads.
Awesome. Very well explained !
It's a shame this only has 500 views. This shit is awesome.
Looks like the algorithmic overlords finally realized how cool this is, up to 47k views when writing this, that's more in line with what this video deserves! :)
50k now! This looks like something straight out of KSP
Feb 18 2021 and its 85,655 views but only 1.4K Likes.
I guess too many people were confused by the brilliance of this.
Wow! A tour de force! Thank you for a great video!
friggin amazing! watched the whole thing! he killed it.
You killed it in this video! Ton of great info
What a great explanation on a very interesting topic.
About Jet Stream energy recovery: There is often a dramatic difference (20 knots or more) in head/tailwinds by climbing or descending a few thousand feet, which I've discovered through many flights in the 15,000 to 28,000 foot altitude range in my turbocharged piston powered airplane. Regional airliner, turboprop pilots, and "Center" ATC personnel are familiar with this too.
It can be hundreds even???
Yes developing an algorithymn to use this free energy then ATC operations that can accomadate these fluid changes is yet another interesting area ...
Now, if only we can get FL18-FL23 into Class E/G so Turbo piston GA can actually utilize their full potential without being stuck IFR at the mercy of ATC.
I hear a boom in the future.. A couple boat tie line whips and a light cargo net to catch that baby on the landing. Thank you for sharing
Absolutely fascinating talk. I had no clue about these awesome rc aircraft before this, they are incredible! I wonder if the speed difference in layers can be exploited for power generation? Brilliant talk thanks
Wow fantastic! What this technology leads to is an open question, especially on other planets.
cool!!! back in 2001 i lived out in Los Angeles. i would say i was a fairly competent slope soaring pilot. i flew foam delta wings of different densities. one day the guy that built the foam cores that i used to fly said im going to take you to a place that is legendary for slope soaring. so we went to parker mountain. parker mountain is a ridge that you get to through fire roads in acton ca. we get up there and i see this guy walking around barefoot. i make a simple mental note and carry on. since there is really no setup for a delta wing we throw out have two short flying runs to get a feel for the place. so i look the barefoot guy almost has his glider setup hes taping up the seams in the wing. composite plane much heavier hitter than i or my buddy that showed me the place. at that point my buddy had heard of ds but i hadnt. so the guy throws out his glider takes a couple turns in the front and shoots down the backside im thinking what did the idiot just do? so i watch thinking this guy is about to lose his fancy plane. i watch him make a hard bottom turn and the plane is heading back up the hill it hits the rotor and heads back down tightening up each pass. with two or three passes the glider is doing well over 100 mph. i was so blown away to what i was witnessing. of course i aint see this type of flying but this huge glider is moving and where you park is along the fire road i get behind my truck for safety. at the time i didnt know it but he kept going back and forth on the backside looking for energy and in that he made a few passes over my truck. it truly sounded like a boeing 737 just passed over my head. so after barefoot guy lands and had settled down near hit pit i went over to him and said" bro you gotta break down for me what i just witnessed" he explains to me about ds and at the end of the conversation he introduces himself as Joe Wurtz. i got to see and learn first hand from the guy who started the craze with rc aircraft
About the same time I was once more living in the LA area, trying to get back to the level I had achieved there over 20 years earlier... After one thermal contest, there was this guy practising landing after landing: it was Joe Wurtz IIRC. I realised that I'd never catch up with these guys who flew almost every day in the soaring paradise that is Southern California.
Eddie Acoba ... I never heard of this until one hour ago when I came across this youtube video. At first I thought it must be fake (speeded up video with normal speed sound track). I am really impressed ... And his engineering skills are the best I’ve seen
I'll never understand glider pilots. Let alone toy glider pilots. Woo, you get to go fast in tiny little circles. Exciting. How many times can you fly in circles before you say "Well, I've done all I can in this field." and move onto something better?
Faster than any RC jet, but NO engine.
@@dr.lexwinter8604 drag racing has entered the chat ..... Bonneville has entered the chat ....Nascar has entered the chat
this explained it so clearly thank you
Outstanding presentation
Wow, talk about interesting stuff. This is crazy. Harnessing this phenomenon in the jet stream would be amazing too.
Wow, fascinating. Didn't expect that you can harvest so much speed in the lee side. I only knew that you can pitch down in upwinds to store energy as speed insteadof height.
Great Video!! thanks!
I found this very interesting. My world is about speed but my goal is 500 mph in a piston engine wheel driven vehicle. In order for these guys to go supersonic they are obviously going to have to move away from a straight wing but as Spencer pointed out, a delta wing was unsuccessful at low speed. I would expect the way to get around this would be a swing wing / delta combo design. The SU-24 & the Tornado are the best examples of this that come to my mind.
Hollly... S...t :D THAT'S AWESOME. I have been watching videos about DS, but this video covers a lot more. Thank you!
Spencer is....
...The man!
This is an amazing bit of research .... the possibilities are endless we are only scratching the surface in a wide range of areas only limited by ones own imagination ... also materials science to step beyond the next level ... we only just have the realization that migration of Birds and Insects over fantastic distances , that theres a tremendous amount of knowledge still to be learnt and understood by open minded application of ideas ...
This was an amazing Presentation thankyou the application of this back of slope Soaring opens up a whole range of possibilities and application is almost endless ...
Thankyou
Wow.. I'm blown away!
Some additional references to full scale gliders would have been appropriate. We had molded wings and laminar flow airfoils as well as flaperons and tanks for wing-ballast (water) for the last 40+ years. Overall a great presentation, congrats for all your achievements in DS.
I think it's also appropriate to mention that full size gliders never had to overcome the reduced Reynolds numbers, 120+ G's and then trans-sonic issues all encountered within a twenty year period. All this was handled by a small group of people, who already had all the full scale glide accumulated knowledge at their disposal.
Just found DS yesterday. WOW, just WOW.
My first thought was: At that speed and that tight of a turn, the G’s pulled have to be incredibly high (speaking as a former fighter pilot, that’s why I thought of that)...glad you finally said you measured them about ⅔ of the way through the video - interesting that you topped out the meter at 120 Gs! You get above 9 sustained Gs and a human starts having significant difficulty staying alive! I spent a lot of time at 9 Gs - it hurts. Have lots of medical issues because of it.
My other thought (which you then addressed) was that it looks like you are pushing past “normal” human ability for reaction time. Amazing flying skill there.
I wonder if you have experienced mach tuck?
My last thought, which you did not address, is it seems rather dangerous! At those speeds, an out-of-control model hitting a person would cut them in half!
It looks like the if you do screw up, you will most likely rip the wings off, slowing it down to much safer speeds.
@@mossm717 Nah, it just make a hole instead of cutting you in two.
@@mossm717this is one of those times where being on the edge of self-destructing actually makes it safer
Sorry to hear about the health after-effects. Do you mind sharing what some of those were, or could be, at worst? I know neck and eye injuries in pilots are common or possible.
I'm wondering if a hyperbaric--or reverse hyperbaric--a hypobaric chamber treatment would have helped. The therapeutic mechanism would be different or corollary, and it's just a wild thought. But I'm sorry for your travails.
Awesome !
why cant you film it in slow motion..i dont see anything
Good video
Because the more general definition of "soaring" is "gaining energy in the form of speed OR altitude" (kinetic OR potential) by exploiting the momentum differences between two fluid regions, it includes sailing (as mentioned)...but also even simpler paradigms: e.g., two simple kites: one kite is flown until it enters an air mass moving relative to the anchored end of the kite string (as evidenced by a distinct "bend" in the string)...and then a second kite is attached to the string and BOTH kites are lofted when the second kite is released. They will remain aloft as long as they reside in the two moving masses, again, as evidenced by a bend in the string between them. Notice that THIS example does not emphasis increasing speed, but rather altitude.
Excellent. Now I have another piece of the puzzle...
its a shame that this style of flying is not better known, i told my friends about it and they could not believe that the fastest rc plane has no motor...
Not a hell of a lot of people have access to a suitable site. I know I don't have anywhere.
@@weatheranddarkness true, i am still searching for one close to my home. not that hard, but i keep my eyes open.
I fly rc planes for fun, not to die...
This "style" is useless
As far as the human side of things go, I wonder if something like forced feedback in the sticks would help in some way...you could tell how much load was on the control surfaces by the tension in the sticks as the plane made its laps.
Brilliant
Fascinating
I might take my 1979 UP Condor hang glider to the ridge and give that a try.
I have one of his plane called kinetic and it’s awesome
Very interesting, not sure of an application for manned flight but it is a technique that will benefit autonomous aircraft.
@ep5 I am very familiar with both the Dyna-Soar and Dynamic Soaring, why do you feel they are related?
he is such a great presenter
THANKS, Spencervery impressive you have done, ... super sonic the next step, isn't it. Go for it!!! niece greetings from berlin germany.
Thank you :)
Could this technique be used by pilots of full-sized gliders to recover when they get "behind the hill"? I don't think for a minute we could get full scale gliders flying at these speeds (the G loading would kill the pilot even if the glider survived) but the technique could be used as a life saver on a smaller scale if it were taught properly?
Could use the drag to your advantage to omit fluttering, back pressure inflation bladders, to strengthen rigidity. Could use the laminar shockwave, convert it to piezoelectric discharge, have predefined cavitations, think longitudinal and equilateral, channel the static discharge, give spark to upgrade the fuselage to a ramjet. Just a thought.
I used to live in Glendora and flew gas powered RC planes, but there was a school in Covina not far from me where the glider guys , including Joe Wurts, would meet on the weekends and I would stop by every now and then to check it out. I never did get a glider, but now I think I will.
I think he still has a little store in Covina that he sells gliders from, though I believe it is mainly a online business.
Great class!!! Question has a video or webpage show how to start on Dynamic soaring like setup the glider and tz setups. I fly many types of planes now planing entry on DS but I don't find how to properly setup the glider and tx. And the gliders is expensive for this and lack of people flying in my region I don't start yet.
Do/Can you embed a passive radio antenna onto the leading edge to improve the radar cross section so that the radar gun can see the aircraft more easily (i.e. match the radio dipoles to the gun's RF frequency)?
Incredibly cool! I have access to a 3D high-fidelity aerodynamic shape optimizer with laminar-turbulent transition prediction. I wonder what airfoils we could generate in order to delay the drag divergence Mach number.
I remember my dad doing slope soaring with custom designed foam flying wings in NZ in the 90s, I wonder, have you guys considered flying wings for DSing? Would have the sweep but also favourable weight distribution & much lower drag.
Very interesting :)
Question, how would dynamic soaring compare to gyroplane rotor? Is there similarlities in some of concept of using wind to accelerate speed?
Great presentation!
Very interesting to learn how far dynamic soaring has developed.Amazing that it possible to get into the high trans sonic range with this size and type of airframe. A speculative question is if it would be possible to maintain more than mach 1 in dynamic soaring with some kind of airframe? Perhaps diving with ballast to pass well past mach 1 and then releasing ballast adjusting wing loading appropriately? I am thinking in similar terms as cheap supersonic and hypersonics tests being performed. Cd drops after mach 1 but it is unclear to me if energy still can be gained in a strong wind gradient. Also vaguely remember reading about some Japanese pilots trying to fly a modified Blanik by DS the jet streams decades ago.
At those speeds, you're creating an inert missile!
Really cool and super nerdy 👍🙂
They need to go the ”south korea route” and train teenagers to fly the planes 😁
He broke the world record on my 43rd birthday. :)
42:00 about the affect of the sweep on mach number, does it works the same for forward sweep wings, in this case making the tip of the wing 'fly faster'? Can it be the reason why on slope aerobats and scale gliders the forward swept models tend to have a very friendly stall and nice handling at low speeds?
Yes forward sweep would have the same effect of delaying the mach drag rise plus an added benefit of avoiding the tip stall problems that come with normal sweep but the aeroelastic nature of forward sweep is unstable since the tips increase AOA as the wing flexes.
Great video! Nice to ee all the work and theorising that goes into reaching these speeds!
When getting close to mach 1 would a delta shape be a good idea?
I had the same thought, delta wing instead of swept wing. Wonder what DP thinks about this.
He talked a lot about the need for high aspect ratio wings for efficiency. A normal delta wing has a horrible aspect ratio. It makes a terrible glider wing.
Well, the energy involved is so much greater than with a normal slope soarer, maybe once you get into those high speed regimes, a delta makes sense (think of Concorde)... if you can get there at all in the first place by starting out in the slope soaring regime.
Nice!
Never hear about it before. Absolutely exciting about fastest rc is a sailors.
I agree about automation of flying parameters. An Nvidia Jetson, at a few hungred grams, should be able to do it using off the shelf MEMS as gyroscopes, tune flight characteristics by recording the control and movement values, with training happening on vetted best commands (best loops, fastest, safest, smoothest). Sort of Tesla style, log hundreds of loops, train, have run simulations of control to verify quality, retrain, then put as passive into glider and record its virtual movements. Ultimately then press an autopilot mode while in circular flight.
Might also need pitots for speed measurement, which would solve other questions.
ive seen the original vid of that glider going 500mph, id love to see it break supersonic one day
...and I still have problems flying my FPV 5" iFlight Nazgul5 6s quad with my new DJI Goggles....
This is professional Hand-eye Coordination TO THE EXTREME!!!!!!! HOLY SHIT!! RESPECT!!!
gotta be straight here...this is done only with wind aid. Most impressive thing is someone watching the glider and being able to control it. Mother nature provides the power.
Slide at 25:45 This stiff servo arm arrangement means that aileron deflection per wing side is only possible in ONE direction, right ?
This is pretty cool. Do wing fences reduce the ability of a glider? I would think they would help with reducing drag, stability of the wing structure if done correctly, and should help with turbulence. But then again I have never, ever done anything with D.S.
I understand not wanting to turn over piloting to automation, but what about automated video tracking? That way you could get a high-speed camera zoomed in nice and close and get a good view of what's happening to the plane.
I wonder what sort of altitude you would get if you hit maximum velocity and pointed it straight up?
How many horsepower does a glider like this extract from the air in order to fly so fast? Must be over 50hp on a tiny light machine.
Is anyone looking into using Dynamic Soaring idea in design and placement of wind turbines to generate electricity?
so when an airplane wing stalls, it does the same thing as the wind does over the hill. You get separation (what he is calling shear). I wonder if you could take advantage of this, to get energy out of the stall. If you could direct this energy toward lift (pull up on the hill), you could get incredible angle of attack...
Energy producing kite that, instead of free wind stream, dynamic soaring. You could generate tremendous electrical power with just a "kite" and an anchorpoint on the peak of the hill.
... The anchor point replaces the dead air zone.
What about giving your glider with head tracker so you can see what the airframe is doing at speed
Does RTK GPS have the 4g limitation of normal civilian GPS? It would be awesome to just leave the plane flying circles autonomously during a wicked storm with fast winds. Has anyone tried to fly at Mount Washington observatory?
Is it possible to have a pitot head and onboard sensor to more accurately measure the speed? Or an onboard camera.
Seems measuring the speed from the ground, in a stable position would be the most accurate.
Best death by power point i seen
My god. If only I had half of this guys processing power.
I don't think what they modelled and run is anything Uber intensive in terms of processing power required.
It's a lot of knowledge on their part to set those simulation and analyse them, that's for shure, and that's what I envy them.
But I think the graph shown are all "only" 2d airfoil cfd and simple rigid body models of the aircraft with thin airfoil, nothing that would take much benefits form detail that can be solved by a night (at most) of number crunching by a typical dextop pc, I'm guessing.
... I can't say anything about that bit done at Strutgard university, that could have indeed took some cpu Time , i just don't have a clue
Would love to hear him talk about how to (or what prevents) scaling this to fit a human inside. A way to reduce the g forces to a reasonable level of sustainable.
For the wings, could you make the skin like a bladder so to speak, and pressurize the wing to maintain a “smooth” contour and hold on to the attached boundary layer further back?
Why not just make the wing out of whatever material it already is, and have the shape you have in mind?
There is an extremely low area of pressure surrounding much of the airfoils upper surface. This equates to pressure differential, so the wings internals are already pressurized compared to the external atmosphere.
I'm not sure how this helps, unless you are oil-canning the wing skin under load? These aren't aluminum, It's pointless if the wing has a solid core.
At 36:27 please tell me you're not talking about "the equal transit time theory" or does this change at trans sonic speeds? and could you ( or anyone)explain what laws support the statement? Much respect and love for your contribution and achievements with DS. I thank you.
He said the airspeed has to match aft of the wing, not that that a pair of air parcels have to match up after splitting, which is what ETT says.
I'm here after watching the world record video from yesterday 😊