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The Economy of EVE Online
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- Опубліковано 15 сер 2024
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EVE Online is a massively multiplayer online game that is probably best known for articles about massive space battles with tens of thousands of players, or stories about in-game con men screwing over their allies after years of friendship. BUT! EVE online is interesting for a bigger reason though that is often overlooked, and that is its amazingly realistic economy. In this video, we explore one of the player nation-states and see how crazy realistic the economy of a video game about spaceships can be.
This is not sponsored by the Imperium, EVE online, or its developer, CCP games (but they are more than welcome to send me a cheque!).
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I like the idea of EVE online more than I actually like playing the game
Samee. Who the hell has time for all this?
exactly, its just too boring for me to play but i love thinking about it
same LOL
It was a very fun chatroom that was a second job... especially when I was in control of my corporation, after a while after I was in control of my alliance it turned into a full-time job and not so fun when newer members with conflicting desires replaced the old friends that drifted out of the game due to burnout and other IRL reasons. It was a great game to chill and chat over VoIP and in-game text on what friends were doing in their lives while in a space-themed background. Half the time we were dual boxing or on another MMO while mining or some other operation with everybody. I am still friends over a decade later with the majority of the players that were in my corporation and alliance... There are also a few people that I would punch in the face as soon as I see them IRL as well, all because of the game lol.
Same, good game but I just don't have time for it
When you want to become a space pirate but end up dealing with logistics and getting shouted at for messing up
To be honest that’s actually the story of my life. 5 year old me would not be proud of current me.
@@Arcticia_Frost I had top make my own small org because every time I was invited to a corp more senior people in the corp would get anxious and accuse me of being a spy.
Think I only did 3 big engagements ever, and one of them I was kicked from the fleet twice because the leader was a hysterical paranoiac XD
Sounds like being a real pirate TBH
lmfao relatable
Just like CGP Greys video about Pirate Logicians.
Those Peglegs are not free scallywag.
I have always thought of Eve Online not as much a Video Game, but as more of an Economy Simulation.
This is why EVE is so amazing. Two players can play same video game but in reality they play two totally different games. One player can be forever poor with nothing more than ships he needs for PVP because PVP is all he cares about. Another player cares only about how to make more wealth and all he does is trading.
@@zpetar except it is dead.
@@mezmerya5130 I know. Luckily I stopped playing back in 2012.
@@zpetar about samish. i felt like game stopped being fair with supercaps drops everywhere and tier3 bc. Most of all infinite income for everyone in dominion was a road to hell for the game. but the fact of 17 -19 avg daily online players makes me sad.
Spreadsheet simulator
I tried to play EVE, but I already have a second job ...
This is not just a job, it's life.
@@robbay8610 If you can barely support yourself in one life, why would you take another life that takes most of the time from your real life and doesn't bring any monetary help at all?
A game should be fun. And games are easy compared to real life. If you have a game difficult as life, then wouldn't be better to just use your time and energy to make something in reality? Instead of farming xp or whatever on your virtual character, you could "farm xp" on yourself by taking a class or starting a side business. It seems odd to try to beat a virtual economy if it's as brutal as the one we live in. For all intends and purposes it should be easier and ultimately more rewarding to win in the real world. That's the theory, but sadly addiction doesn't understand logic...
@@somnorila9913 some people just have no interest in reality and find the virtual world much more interesting. that's why MMORPG's are a thing
@@somnorila9913 ah man... You've just put so much... Into a 5 sec joke. I don't support putting whole lives into video games. And don't worry, I do sustain my own well.
@@somnorila9913 and ye, it's sad that for some people it's real life. Some call it natural selection...
I love when you said the most surprising thing is that these alliances have Social Security xD
But frankly, the most surprising thing is that they have CIA (central intelligence agencies) within each alliance... Literally players that spend all their time doing BACKGROUND CHECKS on members and ensuring no scams or ingame theft / spy sabotague is going on. Isnt THAT insane xD
While that's technicaly counter-intelligence - spies being the intelligence assets ("corporate security" is probably the closest analog in real life), yeah you are correct, it IS amazing. =D
I used to run a 300 person corp, and the biggest thing i involved myself in was intelligence and spyops. I had 3 known infiltrators within my ranks, two of whom "defected" and became double agents feeding me intel from their much larger alliances. I had a guy whose specific job was to be a loud troll as a red herring to the enemy. We had dossiers on all our enemies, their likely ship fits, their tactics, enemies, and location. Both of them, their jump clones, and sometimes even alt accounts. If someone rolled up on us, I'd have 40 pages of intel about them in an hour. This game is literally as deep as tens of thousands of high iq Machiavellian nerds can make it. Warfare is as much about psychology as it is about brawn. As the mittani has said, the goal is to make the enemy lose the will to fight.
@@hosmerhomeboy Good lord, wish I had that kinda time
@@fulccrum2324
Only the handful of guys running it need that time. You have the main guy here and his half a dozen close officers. What about the other 290 people in his corp? They don't have to be super involved like that. When I play Eve I just focus on the pvp, couldn't care less about the economy or the spreadsheets or the intel or the spying or any of that. Just grab a shit, fit it good and fly out looking for a fight. People see all of the 'opportunities' Eve offers and think that they have to do it all to get anything out of it but that is just not true, there are plenty of low effort things you can do that are a hell of a lot of fun.
@@Subjagator True, true
When I was in high school, I played this game. I bought ships with ISK first and disassembled them into minerals. Then sold the minerals to ISK. My first ever successful business model, Hahaha.
I'm pretty sure you lost money.
@@maxphangss the free corvets used to reprocess into more minerals. also there was the isnurance mechanics where some ships were being sold under cost.. all sorts of shit can go on.
Reminds me of scrap banking in tf2
Surprised that nobody has done a Phd thesis about this, and other games.
Probably very hard to get a scholarship for that but it would be extremely interesting none the less :P
Im pretty sure there are studies about this and they tend to use it as a sort of simulation for certain constraints that have not existed in the real world.
there are some thesises about virtual economics that include EVE
I am not sure about Eve but there have been a few studies done on MMO style games and how the player base deals with the inflation that naturally occurs from these types of games, if you are interested in inflation economics I highly suggested seeking them, they are suprisingly interesting.
There are studies done on how economists can use this online virtual economy to test out real life economic policies without crashing the real world economy.
This is the kind of thing you do when you win the lottery and don’t need to work anymore
If your nerdy enough yeh, I like a bit Minecraft but when the lottery ticket hits the fan I'm more of a coke and hookers kinda guy!
@@nihilisticsoup2919 LOL. SO TRUE to your Name! Epic.
This is probably what Bill Gates plays in his free time
Or you have rich parents with enough money that you don't need to work.
I wonder how many millionaires actually play this game.
I was speaking to someone at my work who played this game religiously and he was saying a lot of the people who he is in command over. Are Ex military personal and they left the Military and found this Eve to continue the lifestyle of sorts. Like routine and following orders.
I never played EVE but I met a lot of veterans on Runescape of all places
yea we have a bunch of army folk in our corporation. Very common for eve. A lot of army techies play eve.
@@DJ_Kie Looking for more players?
Eve is complexed it took us around 2 to 3 years to get the people and skills to make titans, we spent many months developing spreadsheets and finding a home, after 16 years the core group is still active in eve and outside.
is that why its population is absolute dogshit now and riddled with f2p cancer toons?
@@gamerx112 nah thats mostly because CCP has a group called The CSM (literally elected players for those who dont know). The CSM is paid to go to Iceland a few times a year and tell CCP how to make the game better. CCP then takes all their suggestions, and tells the developers "anything but that!"
@@Chaun1998 CSM is the problem... EVE has been dying a slow death due to constant raging over balancing which has resulted in more re-balances and less bug fixes than I have ever seen in a MMO.
Hmm, ya need another builder ?
@Tom Nye My toon is right at 10yr old (on and off of course) I can build easily 90% of the game, have nearly 100sp, with experience doing reactions, as I use to build T3 subs in a WH.
I might be able to remember how to build spread sheets.
I am not joking, am looking for a cool group to hang with in order to start playing again.
I was hoping to find it with the persons group who made the post.
Tbh tho. I've spent 200 hours on this game but it's seem like i barely finished the tutorial.
Haha yeah it honestly do be like that I do not even want to know how long I have spent playing EVE back in the day.
During my first 1000 hours in Dota I barely knew wtf was going on, lol. But it's the challenge that makes games like this fun.
It's like real life. Work your ass off to get nowhere.
You have barely finished the tutorial :p
I know the feeling. My best tip is that you actually stay away from the tutorial stuff. Don't do missions in the beginning. Even though the game tries to push you to for some reason.
I learned a heck of a lot more doing solo wormhole exploration. Also earned a lot more money doing it.
Then for fighting, faction warfare was pretty great since you could do it in small, expendable ships against other players, figuring out how the combat mechanics really work.
Interviewer: so do you have any experiences before we hire you?
Me: I played Eve Online
Interviewer: Sir we got the man!
For an economist Job, showing how you made profits manipulating the buy low and sell high methods might not be a bad proof of experience.
if you interview for a managing position and can say that you lead hundreds of people in a game, that is actually an incredible advantage. when they ask you what the game is about and it takes half an hour to explain it, they might be putt off a bit, though xD
I played that game for roughly 600 hours and still had no idea what i was doing.
Just like Adult Life!
@@ProtoMarcus mom im scared
when i first started back in '08, there were no tutorials. you started in space getting shot at. not even a tutorial to tell you how not to die from what was shooting you
@@matthowe2703 hah, I started the same year
I heard this about Eve a while back:
"Eve is like being a small child walking through a park at night filled with child molesters."
After having played it for a while, I find this description highly accurate.
Dam
What is that stock footage you used for "hardcore space accounting?"
That shit had me dying.
Ethan Alfonso what’s the time stamp?
@@slep1654 1:24
This game is more interesting to be heard about than actually playing it
yep XD
I remember when it came out. I was so hyped. it did not play for long...
Yeah and listening about the American dream is a lot more interesting than trying to live it. It's just a matter of scale.
because you not doing it right ! 😏
Nah, it's much more interesting to play it, but some aren't cut out for it.
It’s likely that the EVE economy is larger than several countries.
BubbleBreak multiple solar systems
North cyprus for example
@Caesar when a bunch of autistic teens manage to outperform a communist government in management
There’s no chance EVE’s economy is larger than Venezuela’s.
@@bubblebreak4160
If selling oil is your only income....
I've played Eve for five years and this is an excellent explanation of the in-game economy. Thanks for making it! CCP used to employ an in-house economist to keep things from spiraling out of control (inflation etc) but he's been gone for a while. CCP have just raised in-game taxes to try and pull more money out of the economy, because too much isk was being created by mission runners and NPC hunters.
Inflation is always a problem when you basically allow anybody to print money in the form of bounties or mission rewards. I thought that the economist was still working with eve its a shame to see that he is gone, on a side note if CCP is hiring an economist I don't mind the cold of Iceland hint hint.
In all seriousness I am glad you enjoyed the video I do my very best to make sure the subject of economics is engaging as well as the focus of the video.
@@EconomicsExplained check out the fanfest videos and older posts by their economist (actual rector of one of Iceland´s universities). He has VERY indepth knowledge on the topic as its his field of research as well.
@@totalnizmetek I have watched this actually. Great stuff, it is a shame they don't still have him around today at CCP. I am doing a follow up video soon and i will talk about some of the same issues that he was talking about here.
@@EconomicsExplained great then ;)
mission running is one of the worst ways to make isk unless you are doing level 5's
Algorithms dont run this economy,
Player demand and supply do.
I am actually doing a follow up vid that might contest the idea that algorithms don't run the eve economy. You guys do have a real bot problem haha.
Reading an algorithm can help guess / predicts changing trends .
CCP has huge knobs to control the rate of drops, spawns, escalations and most of the rest of raw resources. Player involvement is important but by no means the primary factor. Also player attrition is a huge sink--especially the past couple months--though one I don't expect we'll see CCP advertise.
@@EconomicsExplained Not if you find one of the badly programmed ones you can manipulate. Then the market bots at least are no problem
@@EconomicsExplained I am so glad you recognize it. BRING DOWN THE LIE!
I was once intrested in EVE. Then I saw the spread sheet of diffrent professions. I already have a job. I wasn't intrested in EVE anymore.
Same. EVE is great if you want to read about all the stories of war, espionage, rivalry, betrayal, diplomacy, economics, and memes. But actually playing the game requires way too much work and effort for any normal individual lol
You don't have to deal in arbitrage, transport or mining. You can also deal in piracy, imperialism and conquest. Personally, I love skulking in the shadows of a wormhole, and prey on innocent and cute newbies entering my web of wormholes. My biggest solo delivery yet netted around 2 billion ISK in damages (and income around 1 bill), but I'm in on bigger kills in my previous null alliance. But yeah, it's a really slow game, with really quick deaths. ;)
@@kebman Space Trucking in Elite Dangerous sounds way more relaxing after a day of hard work to me x)
@@geniemiki You can do space truckin' in EVE too. Just take it easy through Niarja or Uedama. ^^ Or try taking it through Rancer, just for kicks.
The thing you are ignoring here is that most people playing EVE are Mission Runners doing PVE. You hear a lot about EVE being Everyone vs. Everyone (note the people who spell it EvE) but that isn't what most people are doing. These guys aren't using spread sheets - they're just buying battleships to run level 4 missions. If you open a map of New Eden and set it to show "pilots in space" - you'll see where [almost]** everyone is - and they are in Hi Sec - not Low Sec, not Null Sec - Hi Sec.
So - all this bull shit that you have to run spread sheets - is just that - bull shit.
PVP - is there. Industry and Commerce - are there. You can do all of that you want - or none of it.
The thing is - you can take EvE and turn it from Play - into Work. That's one of the reasons people quit playing. They learn enough about the game - where if they do all the things they know how to do ... it becomes Work. It is completely open ended and - the more you play - the more you can make and the more you can make - the bigger and better the ships you can get - which - lets you do more. It becomes
You work so you can make money so you can buy bigger ships so you can make more money so you can buy even bigger ships so you can make even more money so you can buy still bigger ships so you can make still more money so you can buy yet even bigger ships ...
You can pretty much play EvE 23 hours a day - and given people who do some things AFK - there probably are people who do.
But - you don't HAVE to do that.
**edit - no they're not ALL in Hi Sec - just most of them.
.
How tf do you live in real life if you have a game like this?
you don't
This game is your second job, should you start playing it. Not recommended.
You really really really don't. I lost 3 years in this game, trust me.
@@fragtore6457 but isnt it worth it?
@@BudiTabootie what in life is worth anything, might as well play a game or fool around with girls or study, it doesn't change anything, and why is that? Because we are all unimportant little blmips
Regarding the investment amount, you could probably add in there the cost of structures anchored, structure modules fitted and structure fuel used. The problem is that, like real nations, these things don't happen per month. Alliances set their structures in waves, depending on when they relocate to an area, win or lose territory, start or end a war. But if you really want some info, try contacting some of the Imperium diplomats (yes, we have diplomats in the game!) I'm pretty sure they could get you numbers you can use from their industry people.
Besides that, great vid!
You can solo with multiple structures moon bases and manufacture in high-sec I prefer .6 at worse a war deck and hand em over and still make a killing. re-investing my focus was just ammo and charges Fully researched BPOs and copies. Some invention helped a lot though.but I couldn't keep up just wasn't enough supply.
This game still exists? I played it on release for about a year. I could've been a galactic meme lord emperor by now.
Hi Guys, very interesting video this week that I really enjoyed putting together. A bit left of field but the economy of EVE has always been something I have been dying to look at in some kind of academic capacity and the video of making a video gave me an excuse to do so.
Maybe i missed it, but did you include in the calculation the monthly expenses for the renewal of all imperium accounts?
@@Mark_o_Helm No, I would probably consider this closer to a reserve bank taking currency out of circulation rather than government spending because the that isk goes into a black hole pretty much plus alliance fee's are an almost negligible ammount in the calculation anyway.
If you meant what it costs to pay for the subscriptions of all of the players in the imperium than no, part of that would be included in player spending but most players get PLEX in game from outside of their region in places like Jita.
In this case it would be more akin to a real person flying overseas to get a surgery. Sure they are still spending money but it does not contribute to their home economy and so does not get counted in GDP.
you managed to scratch the surface...
Keep a close eye on things. Since the blackout, industrial players have started to go do other things. It'll be interesting to see the effect of a dried up primary industry on the whole game and weather CCP will have to shift more to normal game type economies to make life livable to the PvPers.
Why do you assert its absurd to see this as very, very similar to the real world?
Very cool stuff man!
Thankyou, if I am correct and I may not be you are a member of the CSM which is kinda a semi space government to the game developers. I was going to include information on that in this video but I did not want to get it confused with the point I was trying to make about eve alliances being their own little governments. Glad to see you enjoyed the video.
@@EconomicsExplained I am an ex-member now, but yes! I think it'd be closer to an elected advisory board than a government, as we do not have actual hard power, but it's one of the few that're determined democratically.
BTW, do you have an email or some other method in which I could contact you? I'm now a writer for MMORPG.com and I'd love to try and get your view on some of the other aspects of the EVE economy.
@@molochz settle down cobba
Anyone here remember OTEC, the Organization of Technetium Exporting Counties?
Three. Million. Dollars? I was expecting it to be in the ten thousands. And this is just one nation? That’s amazing.
That's like 300.000 real life work hours. It's the product of about 100 people working 8 hours per day, 365 days per year.
Hi, I am a PhD student at University of Pennsylvania and I've been floating the idea of doing a term paper on the economics of EVE for a while. However, I haven't played the game and only have limited understanding of its structure. Is it possible for us to talk over email about some additional details?
Best,
William
Ive been market trading in eve for years on and off. What do you want to know ? have you played the game ?
@@DJ_Kie
HI, thank you for your reply.
Unfortunately, I have never played the game. It is on the list of game that I would like to play but am a bit too intimidated to start. I guess for starters, I'd like to learn a bit more about the production structure of the game, namely, how is resources generated? How are the ships crafted? How much coordination goes into these projects. Also, I've heard of mega-corporations churning out dozens of titans every months, I'm curious as to how these corporations operate and what they do with the ships they crank out. Do they sell them for real money? Or to other guilds/private players for in-game currency? etc.
@@williamduan2322 Don't be! Its just a game like any other, but unlike any other game at the same time.. people make it out to bemuch worse than it is. But its still just a computer game. You seem like a smart guy so it will have no problems with it.
Real money trading is against the game developers rules technically but it goes on in shady areas of the web im sure... Resources as with anything in games. are gathered much like in the real world and are subject to supply and demand. So these are mined and or salvaged by players. The very base level component is gas and ore which gets turned into specific components you want top build or straight up ship hulls. Its like other MMos but with a much much broader crafting/interacting system. Things are either sold via contracts between players, or are sold on the market at stations by way of market orders (buy and sell). The easiest way for you to grasp it would be just to install the game and give it a go. Its free to try.. You can use this buddy invite to get free skill points so you can try all sorts of different things. And if you have any questions perhaps I can give you a hand in game :)
www.eveonline.com/signup?invc=266251a3-597b-40b1-8a5c-a3707f3074f6
@@DJ_Kie Thank you for the information. The game looks really good, I'll definitely give it a shot in a month or three after I finish my exams. Regarding resource acquirement, may I ask if anything is sold by NPC? Like, is it possible to get an infinite amount of any good from just an NPC store at a fixed price?
@@williamduan2322 Yes there are certain commodities that are supplied by NPC. Mostly blue prints. On occasion you will find people willing to pay more isk for them if it means they don't have to go somewhere. Bit like IRL economy where people pay more for product if it means they don' have to pick it up. :)
Hi Guys exciting news, as widely requested I have created a Discord server for this channel. This is my first time making this type of server so I hope I have done everything correctly. Feel free to come hang out and chat, or even just come and get help with your economics homework :P
discord.gg/TjWDPAA
EVE always scared the heck outta me. Always seemed like an overload, however after delving into the economics of UBI+VAT and how they effect the economy... It absolutely intrigues me now
should try it out man!
Actual investments would be pretty impossible to measure unless you're in the Alliance leadership and involved in making those decisions. Player-made investments would be pretty impossible to measure, as they'd be done on an individual basis 99% of the time and would be done most likely in high-sec. Most people either do short term commodity investment or long-term investment in the form of things like blueprints which will be used, usually as a collective, to make some item for profit.
That being said, I think it is still possible to determine at least _some_ numbers regarding investments into corporation/alliance, both in in-game currency (I'm fairly certain that some form of banking system does exist in EVE, que loans from banking player corporations) and in hard irl cash (corporations, alliances, and their key personalities do create and host their own websites in order to represent themselves in the Internet, which means that they have to rent servers from hosting providers; while arguably it can be considered a "government spending" funded by irl donations and/or personal funds of players who maintain the network infrastructure and that no income is expected out of it, it may also be argued that they are, in fact, a complete project funded by the "state obligations" which are expected to be payed off at some point, one way or another)
This is why iv been playing now for 10 years, EVE ONLINE is so unique
It is indeed amazing, putting this video together actually made me resub for the first time in a couple of years haha.
Been playing since 2011, stull active. CCP’s decisions are going to kill the game though. Chaos era isnt fun when you have lived in null since 2012
Played it for 3 intense years 2006-2009 (mostly 0.0 and piracy from Murethand) and I still get an addict's deep longing 10 years later whenever I come across a video like this... I loved/hated it and will never get those years back. I can genuinely say I learned some great stuff there, but man did I miss opportunities in real life. funny enough it's the small stuff I miss most. Covering an important stargate for a few hours while bullshitting with the peeps on vent. That and the insane adrenalin on chewing on a too large target but coming winning out of the fight with a huge bounty to share and sell. Eve is the game where I most felt losses and wins.
I don't know how this video was recommended to me. I've never played Eve and never really wanted to. That said, I do love learning about in-game economies.
UA-cam is scary.
Haha hmm they are on to you :O either way I hope you enjoy my videos we welcome all algorithm travellers here :)
I advice you to stay away from this game.
Very nice video and such a clear explanation on how eve works economically, especially to non eve players. Keep it up!
Thanks mate, to be honest I was not expecting so many experienced EVE players to see this so I wanted to make it engageable for the average viewer of my channel (all two of them) who are probably very good with economics but not so much with EVE online.
As a former EVE Player from roughly 2003 to 2013, I can tell you there was a large player owned bank and several competing smaller player owned banks operated in game. It was all managed 3rd party outside of the game and deposits would have been made from a player, corp, or alliance directly to the player owned bank corp in the game. The player owned banks had various investment options ranging from safe (like bonds) to more risky investments with higher returns (like funding a start up corp with plans for operations in 0.0 space). These banks would lend isk as capital to all kinds of corps and alliances in the game and collect payments with interest back. I was not part of any of these player owned banks nor did I invest money but I do know some of the investment funds reached 10's of trillions of ISK in value.
WHEN A FEW MOMA'S BOYS KNOW HOW TO RUN AN ECONOMY BETTER THAN YOUR GOVERNMENT :V YEP IM ARGENTINIAN
Ulises acuña bianchi jajajajaj
Por que todos tus comentarios estan en mayusculas?
@@ivang3678 por que llaman mas la atencion o s me rompio el bloq mayus
@@elprimerplayer277 Y para que queres llamar mas la atencion?
Good luck in the Rugby world cup
Large-Volume orders are normally investment. If someone buys say 10k units of something that is used in the multiple thousands by a single ship (jump-fuel for example) then that's regular spending. Buying 100Million units of the stuff is gonna be a long-term investment or fueling an entire coalition worth of supers.
Amazing video, earned a sub without a doubt. Lots of work and very well appreciated!
Although, there is one overwhelming problem, market trade value as well as the value of contracts can’t be measured the same way as real world transactions. Many contracts and market transactions are bought and resold for profit, meaning they were counted twice (or more). In real world transactions, very few people buy a couch from ikea and sell it for a profit. Which means the majority of the 100 trillion monthly isk is unreliable.
Hi Mate two things here.
1. Thanks for the kind words I really appreciate it :)
2. This actually doesn't matter soo much for Delve because it is mainly a consumption based market eg people buy ship to use ship in delve rather than flip them for profit. Also say their were investors buying up products to resell as something else this would have otherwise been counted as investment expenditure but as noted this is very hard to distinguish from normal consumption. If I was trying to calculate an area like Jita (EVE online primary exchange market hub) you would be absolutely right because a vast majority of that is just item flipping taking place.
Few Comments:
MER had bugs in the way CCP calculated contracts which was only fixed later on.
Investments will not become visible because much of the really deep pockets keep their items in non-conquerable stations in various regions. And much of that has been placed into forward manipulations even as far back as 5+ years ago.
Zkillboard only includes ship, structure and certain drone destruction events where one or the other party gave them an ESI key to read the feed. There is an issue with these keys when the system switched over from API to ESI.
Imports/Exports figures also include fleet movements between regions. It can include forward long term deployments of SIGs and Squads. So won't ever be 100% local events.
If you really want to understand the highest level stuff I would suggest listening to podcasts and articles where a player called "Aryth" made any appearances.
Amazing stuff thank you so much for this comment, the depth of stuff like this continues to blow my mind. I am going to checkout those podcasts now it sounds like I have something to listen to while I go for my evening jog.
As I have said before to other commenters I did not expect to attract nearly as many EVE player viewers as I did. You guys definitely know the ins and outs of the game far better than I do and are able to call me out on these figures. In terms of the economy though the larger point I was trying to make about these player nations been full on model economies in a bottle still stands though.
@@EconomicsExplained Aryth was one (if not the chief architect) of the current Imeprium development track. The Delve Miracle some people call it. This was something he developed more than 5 years before we were forced to enact it after we were evicted from the Deklein area up north (ref Money Badger Coalition, Casino War, World War Bee). If you actually work inside the model and a few of our out-of-game Jabber channels where the groups discuss specific manipulations you get to realize just how in depth this model is. And it has very little actually to do with any balance changes to specific ship hulls and what they do.
It may be worth watching it over the coming weeks, as there appears to be something about to happen with regards to a "nullsec first" movement.
@@Rammelkas I am tempted to resub and join goons to be amongst such fascinating developments such as this. Truly amazing stuff.
I find tales and stories about this game so fascinating. Maybe because so much of Eve is driven by the actions and desires of people, a mystifying group!
I love this game, have played for ten years, and I'm still at the noob -level, doing safe mining and manufacturing. Just subbed to this channel because of this vid btw :-)
If you want a way more fun experience, but don't want to join one of the big nullsec alliance blocs, find an awesome wormhole corp. :) You won't regret it!
My character and I have had a personal economic impact of at minimum 5+ Trillion ISK to the New Eden economy affecting all 4 major quadrants of empire space as well Wormhole occupied space. I think it was fuzzy how I started playing the game. I just heard people keep talking about it, so I was intrigued and started playing out of curiosity and for something more interesting than the normal run of mill MMO’s. I worked full time as a Process Engineer at a Pharmaceutical company and at night after work I’d play EVE in my free time. Worked my way up from completing started playing solo for a long time as a Industrialist and logistics Capitalist making, supplying and running my influenced control aspect of the economy for years. I made everything from all kind of ship parts and in between up to Capital sized ships to Space Stations.
A massed over 4K+ Researched Blueprints for making all that stuff. Not as much spreadsheets personally though I tracked everything I made, sold, traded. But because I knew the market in the very thing I sold or cornered. I had logistics running all over empire space and other people moving my stuff everyday to other stations to supply my trade stations of business. Became a wealthy in game Billionaire that could buy whatever I wanted short of a Titan Ship which could care less for. Was welcomed into a Corporation and ran my own R&D Division Of Corporation. Eventually becoming the director of all R&D and Industry. Eventually I realized life was passing by outside and hadn’t really notices things going on in real world as much. Job changes happened and eventually one day just decided to walk away from the game, resigned from my in game Corporation. So in walking away I gave away my entire wealth to 5 people who were friends and vast majority to a blogger friend as a benefactor who’d do well with giving it all to him. No regrets. I had a good life in New Eden. When it comes to the economic game, there is absolutely no game like EVEOnline, no other game is close.
I would say in EVE econometrics that all consumer spending is investment in inventories or capital until the product is destroyed (read consumed). So you can consider them to be the same. Goods are either consumable inventory - commodities, ammo, and any other good depending how it is used - or a capital asset - ships, components. For example you could deploy 1m ISK of capital to buy, fit an insure a Venture + 1 hour of time = 500k ISK. Or you could deploy 1m ISK capital to buy, fit and insure a frigate + 100k consumable ammo + 1 hour time = 500k ratting earnings.
On top of that you have player to player services such as haulage, insurance, loans, and piracy/scams.
Eve isn't nearly as difficult to get into as some people are saying, you can jump into the game, open recruitment chat and talk to a corp recruiter and get into mining fleets or pvp roams in your first week playing the game. There are tons of tutorial videos on youtube when you want to get into something more specialized like exploration sites.
I still have my old independent trade business in EVE where with a few days of flying and trading I can make a years premium account, it's much easier than in real life 😏
This was a fun video. I played Eve Online from March 2005 till August 2019 (a few weeks ago), and got to experience the full gambit of this game. There were times where I did use a spreadsheet, but to be honest you don't have to do that to be successful or have fun.
Now I’d be really interested to see what 1 isk would really be worth if eve was real life. Not just based on how much isk you can buy with usd, but based on how much the ships and other stuff would actually cost in real life.
This has me convinced we could be living in a simulation
Love EVE Online! I might make a video on it
I just came to this video after seeing yours :)
Surely Bitcoin or Ethereum would make the perfect in-game currency.
Well that's a good idea but I m afraid that they are not scalable enough for such amounts of transaction and moreover the developers could not control the monetary economy and that could be a problem
Very impressive. Also check out two of the largest online battles ever so far, “The Bloodbath of B-R5RB” and “X47L-Q Keepstar Citadel”. The citadel involved more supers and titans than any other, yet overall a substantially smaller amount of in game credits and overall losses. That, and the battle was well planned out and staged, where as the Bloodbath was more of an accident of mismanagement (or was it...🤔). Yes it’s just a game, but the epic scale is worth of any space opera novel.
The economy is not completely without NPC interaction. There are some things this and other reviews of Eve's Economics that are left out. First off as a game the resources are unlimited in the game, thus you will never run out of resources as long as you control the region where those resources spawn into existence. Second is the currency in game is printed on mass by the game as it assigns value to various NPC targets.
See the game has two main resource types, materials and cash. The materials are mined from asteroids that spawn into the world and these are used to build ships. However a barter system would be quite hard to manage so there is also cash, aka ISK, which is generated by several means. You can hunt random NPC bad guys like typical MMOs which have a bounty and thus get paid, you can run missions for NPCs, and there maybe some other ways since I last played but those are the primary way of earning ISK that is "new" to the economy. Trades between players only move cash and minerals around in the system.
The sinks in the system are somewhat obvious for minerals as every time a ship is blown up the mineral cost of those is lost. The cash sinks though are not as obvious to those who don't play the game. See it's fine to talk about how players "make" everything but that's only partially true as the means of production is mostly owned by the NPCs. As the players simple "RENT" factory locations on stations and those stations have a limited number so companies will often horde them to prevent their enemies from getting them.
Now I haven't played EVE in years, but my understanding is to combat this as these stations were in NPC controlled space so players had no recourse to get factories they introduced the player stations and player controlled space. Because before this the NPC stations allowed companies to lock in monopolies on the production front as long as they kept up with their payments. Now with the ability to have capturable stations that have their own production the players can secure a means of production by force if need be. Even with this there are huge Cash upkeep cost on these stations and the facilities. Thus the players are constantly having to pay an NPC workforce/taxman just to keep what they own.
The developers of EVE are often trying to balance things out so that the amount of expenses the players have to pay in upkeep is on par with the amount of money being produced so that runaway inflation doesn't happen the way it does in other MMO games. For example when a curtain game first came out the idea of saving up 500 gold to get a mount seemed like a monumental task but now it's chump change compared to the thousands of gold you have. Though with EvE it tends to be more the minerals that get run away inflation due to bot miners and them dumping the materials on the market which drops the price.
Besides the endless supply of resources EvE is also a War economy as everything in the game revolves around getting more and defending yourself against those who want to take it. Even if you are not on the front line you are still a worker in the system to supply resources for the war effort. Which is why the social security program as he calls it works in EvE. It's not a living expense to unproductive retired people but more like if a soldier's tank, jeep, etc breaks down they can't fight so it is better to get them a new one as it supports the war effort rather than having them out of the fight. There is also no threat of death as you simply respawn and pickup from where you left off so people happily throw themselves into the fray as they know they can just buy a new ship or if push come to shove have the corp get them one.
Overall though it is nice to look at EvE and see how people approach the supply and demand in this unique environment it is ultimately not a good representation of the real world.
I remember installing EYE a couple of years ago. I played for a couple of hours and I just didn't get it.... This game truly is something different.
Net spending is not 90.6 trillion isk. 48.6 trillion isk + 32 trillion isk is 80.6 trillion isk.....
Shut up, nerd
@@zhin13 Lunch break's over, get back in the kitchen to flip those burgers or your McDonalds supervisor will be mad, you anti-intellectual moron.
@@zhin13 This person seems to have more support than your biased comment.
@@HighAdmiral why would working in mcdonalds be bad?
@@lubu2960 Low wages, that's why. Also the go-to example of where academic failures end up working.
You just know there’s someone who escapes their everyday normal life working for an international shipping company by playing eve online and living a virtual life working for an interplanetary shipping company.
Biggest surprise I learned watching this: the Imperium holds Delve. Last I played was during the Fountain war, so quite some time ago, and at that time TEST held Delve.
It's definitely true that Eve Online isn't for everyone, but it's also not true that you wouldn't have fun if you didn't want to look at contracts and trade-related spreadsheets all the time. As far as I know, a comparatively small percentage of the population actually dedicates themselves to trade in a hardcore way. Most players have a simple means of making money (sometimes as part of someone else's larger operation), and use that means to acquire ships and go fight for fun. No real knowledge of trade required, beyond "how not to get scammed".
Oh of course this was very tongue in cheek on my end, EVE is a great game and once you get into it can give you an adrenaline rush like no other video game can.
The primary form of investment in EVE, is also the primary transitory currency: The PLEX.
The fact that it is a transitory (on a monthly basis not yearly) resource/currency increases demand due to
being consumed at a rate I'm guessing is in the hundreds of thousands of units daily range.
They are transitory for the Imperium specifically because we have to pay our subs too yes, but so does everyone else.
I saw a 6 minute UA-cam ad. It was so interesting I looked it up. Lol I'm not surprised you made a video on it
Is based on TEARS...
HAHAHAHAHA the real currency of any competitive online game TBH
@@EconomicsExplained the game cant be competitive if you pick your fights. and eve isnt.
SALT, the biggest commodity in Eve
5:56 When a game keeps the spending of a in-game government private... you know things are getting real...
There are some other operating costs associated with running an alliance like fueling structures, cyno fuel cost, jump fuel cost (which is also reimbursed to Goon capital pilots), lost fighters (again for capital pilots). Sometimes ships can be replaced at a rate that makes losing ships profitable! This is often done to encourage people to fly specific fleet roles like logistics or Interdictors. We also give away newbie friendly ships that players can insure and make a profit from losing. In essence, we make PvP completely free to the player- which alleviates us from having to 'grind' at the game to afford lost ships. Combined with Eve's real-time training mechanic a player no longer has to sit and grind away at a game to progress. If you put Eve down for a bit you can come back better than you left. Perhaps able to do something entirely new.
Bloody insane. I've heard of Eve online so many times but I never paid much attention to it. Finding out all of this is fascinating.
I lost it at "Hardcore Space Accounting" rotflol!!!
Ugh man. I can't watch more if its going to nearly have me die laughing lint this. The first part of the whole ecomony thing to the "So an end game player can do this *click* *fart noise* -Glasses-"
Glad someone got something out of that :)
You missed one government expenditure. If you want the data, contact someone in Goon Swarm Isk, they'll be able to give you exact numbers. The expenditure is the fuel and sovereignty costs for each and every structure we have from the smallest Raitarus up to the massive amount of keepstars we have littered about the various regions.
Additional government spending would also be things like sov and ihub fees, structure construction and maintenance costs, and structure fuel costs. All of these things are typically payed for through taxes on individual player income or from fees to use structure functions.
"Hardcore Space Accounting"
LOL
I am thankful you put an "*" next to the value i bring up to people i play(ed) eve online many people ask me how much money i spent to get items ships etc. I attempt to explain that its not a pay to win game (we know you can pay real money to get game money). It got bothersome each time.
It is pay to win, but only for rich people. And those rich people would rather buy accounts with trained character and get a battleship, then do the grid.
Eve is tehnicaly Pay to not suffer.
As a long time eve player, this is one of the most well written explanations of the eve economy I have seen in a long time
this game is made by icelandic people and ISK is icelandic kroner btw. we icelandic people are really proud of this game hahaha
awesome video man keep it up
Kroner? Krónur actually
Halldór Þormar Hermannsson afsakið mig gleymdi þvi alveg hahaha
this guy just insulted the mittani bold move
*hides from the wrath of the approaching imperium fleet.
TBF Space Donald Trump is pretty much accurate
I've got a player in my online D&D campaign that plays EVE and he constantly questions the arbitrary prices and economy models of local regions, states and nations in my world. I can now understand why he does that.
2:10 I learned this the hard way by getting suicide ganked in my shiny new blackbird while sitting in 0.9 highsec :(
You could potentially gather a very rough estimate for investment by looking at the structures (Engineering Complexes, Citadels, Jump Gates and the like) placed in a region by a given alliance. These bits of infrastructure are vital to the functions of the coalition day-to-day, as they enable the industry and logistics to a significant degree.
The "easiest" way to do this would be to use the in-game structure browser and look through each alliance in a given coalition. Although this would require physically going to the regions you wish to look at, then opening the tool, as it only filters by region.
Although it's possible that one of your other figures captured this expenditure anyway, assuming one accounts for the mining, PI and advanced manufacturing that goes into building and maintaining these structures. This is because many major coalitions have built these items in advance and have them stockpiled to some degree.
How have I never heard of this. I’ve wasted my life :c
It’s a good game but be warned if you get into it EVE online will be a bigger waste of your life than almost anything else! Back in the day when I played I sunk atleast 30 hours a week into the game.
@@EconomicsExplained thats rookie numbers
Illidan Stormrage nah mate you don't waste your time on games. Acquire some skills and when you get old play some games.
@@EconomicsExplained Is this game really old? I just started seeing ads for the game and it feels like it is brand new.
@@FakeAssHandsomeMcGee_ I mean, this year it will become 18, so it is already an adult!
As an EVE online player, I can tell you 100% that it is not social security at all. What it is instead is
1) Charity from much older player to the newbs in order to help them start off, charity comes from much richer players and corporations.
2) Payment to the players who are actually involved in very important activities such as defense or offence, therefore lose ships in process
Not a single corporation is going to provide you with in-game money when you are "retired" or no longer contributing, nor will anyone provide you with in-game money when you are off doing your own irrelevant activities. So once again a giant distinction.
I remember the Eve Waifu Wars, that was hilarious. Nice video. Keep up the good work.
imagine logging into your favorite online game after a 12 hours shift at the office and the first thing you see is "pls fix thx"
Eve has everything a real economy has, to some extent, including corruption... Almost all of the mods are current players, involved in the largest alliances, and they have no oversight so they use their positions to benefit their alliances... I've even seen them ban people during events for 'botting' so that their friends can be first to complete the events...
That math at 5:39 ... I think you're about 10 trillion isk off on that figure...
😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂
Lol true
You should do a video on how you think the fact that player run governments can't really engage in monetary policy or issue their own currencies, affects the functioning of the economy.
10:12 "it does genuinely have some incredible similarities and intricacies that give us a glimpse into what an economy would look like if the rules were removed and the place was run by Internet spaceship meme-lords"
I'm voting for whichever party stands on that platform.
Ive been looking at this game for a long time, I think ill pick it up, because you made it seem interesting.
eh... i found it rather "hollow" myself after i gave it a try. didnt live up to my expectations after hearing all the stories etc
Nobody plays that game anymore, so don't bother
Youre only a decade late.
@@Aiveq Just played it for a few days, I got pretty far, started to get into the more grindy stuff, and started doing stuff more high risk... Ill just say I die alot and its not fun. I also got scammed for alot of my stuff by some guy that was "helping" me.
@@barodrinksbeer7484 if you see anyone(!) approaching, better drop everything you do and start warping. that is rule off thumb in open pvp games. i dont know how you got scammed so... early, but i tried getting into hauling contracts and those are like 90% scam. trade goods are worthless as well if you fancy freight... so much for doing what you want
Very cool video. The numbers are a bit off, but in general great job. If you feel like talking about these things further feel free to contact me. Its such a deep rabbit hole, and there is academic stuff out there, one fun fact is that Yanis Varoufakis actually did some work on EVE economy.
Ahh yes but unlike Greece EVE's economy still looks rock solid! I am kidding of course (sorta), I might take you up on that, there was so much more I wanted to talk about in this video but I am trying to make this content approachable to non eve players as well. If I ever do a part two it would be great to talk directly to people more on the ground floor.
@@EconomicsExplained The people that play the EVE markets might be interested in your stuff, and vice versa. Some of them hang around here : discord.gg/0umquajn3nWYLY8q , so do I as the channel owner.
@@CalebAyrania thanks mate, I have introed myself in there and will be sure to hang out.
this man Caleb is the right man to talk if you need further info about EVE economy. Also, nice work you've done here. Cheers
@@ulogeni I have actually been chatting with him all week to prepare a follow up video that I have just posted. You are very correct he is a wealth of knowledge and an in game titan of industry.
1:06 "Stimulating da economy" killed me.
Note that eve does not have a galactic bank to do loans, but corporations do have stocks and dividends. (Not that I’ve seen said feature used much, but it is worth noting.)
Secondly, to say that the imperium only has a government spending of 2 trillion Isk is a huge understatement - massive alliances pay for education and federation projects, namely buying expensive capital ship skillbooks, building said capital ships, as well as the various stations operated and employed along with the fueling and maintenance costs of operating them.
These costs cannot be overstated, as the largest battle in the history of online gaming came from not paying rent.
All they have to do is create a crpto currency for the game list it on an exchange and now you can make an income from Eve.
But the developers likely wouldn't allow that. They could easily make PLEX a cryptocurrency if they wanted - people are already trading illegaly - but they don't want to encourage that.
@@nathangamble125 why not? wouldnt more ppl play the game meaning more player base actually has some kind of reason to waste their life on it?
@@fishshit Because the developers want a monopoly on the currency (and rightly so), so anyone who wants it has to pay them, instead of paying someone else.
@@fishshit Because players selling their currency must of course sell it for less than the game company does (otherwise players just buy it from the game company). But if it's legal, then as many people as possible will buy currency from other players instead of from the company, since it's cheaper that way. Personally, if I were the developers, I would allow such transactions but set up an official marketplace through which such transactions must be done, and charge a small commission (e.g. 2% of the real cash) on every such transaction.
Because if they did that they would have to conform to Iceland's banking laws.
Would love to see a new ip do something just like this, I feel like I’m about a decade late if I wanted to play this
Yes, but without the bots
I was a mining boss driving a Rorqual in null, with a fleet of Hulks under me. We dumped our ore and ice in a manufacturing hub. There is was refined and used to make ships, modules, etc. We imported almost nothing. You could buy a fully fitted (to corp standard fit) combat ship for next to nothing on contract (open to any alliance member). If we lost a ship in a combat operation it was replaced.
Eve: the game played by sociopathic accountants
Great video man. its always good to se more eve videos.
Thanks mate seems to be very popular. I have been making economics video's for a while and for the most part they only get about a hundred views or so but people look really interested in this one so I will probably have to make a part 2 at some point.
@@EconomicsExplained I found the video on our reddit for eve. but no matter what its a really good video about our economy. love to watch videos about stuff like that. might take a look on your other videos at somepoint.
@@BlueTera ahh great stuff well hopefully you enjoy mate!
Now, I was never good at calculating GDP; it was the one major thing I couldn't really figure out as solidly as the rest of the material in my economics classes, mainly because it's somewhat contrived and not exactly a concept heavy on logic but one of pure definition. I recall there are lots of different ways to calculate GDP, and the one you gave is usually the simplest to use because it avoids having to muck around with all the individual steps that go in to a functioning economy. It doesn't entirely work though for Eve, especially if you try to limit your discussion to one alliance. An alliance is a collection of corps, which are collections of pilots. Most corps aren't particularly big, and some of them change alliances. Some pilots decide to change corps as well. This is far easier than changing what country you're a citizen of. As part of their change of alliance or corp, they'll probably be moving and/or liquidating their assets, which will make it look like there's economic activity when there really isn't any production of goods or services that didn't exist before. Additionally, its debatable whether the PLEX market should be considered economic activity.
Because of this, I wouldn't really try to calculate GDP on the basis of one particular alliance, but for the game as a whole, consider it its own country, and say that the PLEX market is simply the foreign currency market which doesn't really involve economic activity in the "country". To get the GDP of this entity according to the method used, for "household" spending, I would consider the same things you would, which is total value traded on the official markets and contract systems. For "government spending", I would consider the amount of money taken out of the system by sales tax and sovereignty upkeep costs - these presumably go to fund CONCORD and all the NPC stuff that is the real "government" in the game. For "investment", which should really be, like exports, "net investment", I would consider the net change in the value of all goods owned by players. And as for exports and imports, there are none; its goods are not transferable to other entities in the economy. Now, these are presumably not so easy to determine as they may not be reported in the economic survey, particularly the net change in the the value of goods in players' hands. I don't know what all is in those economics reports, but there might be the data to calculate GDP in the other way: summing up all the net economic activity of each individual player. Obviously not one-by-one, but adding together the total value of all pirate bounties paid, minerals/moon goo/PI products extracted, and items manufactured, which is the entire goods economy, plus the value of courier contracts completed and the total rent paid by those living in sov space they don't own. I don't know whether sov alliances would give up the information on the rent they collect, but you could at least go system-by-system and see who lives in space they don't own and check the rates that the alliance would charge in rent for that system. Public courier contracts and rent are the only services I think there are that are done on generally arm's-length basis and not part of one's duty as a member of a corp/alliance.
Ok, reading the other comments made me realize part of my issue with calculating GDP, and it's one that's going to be a problem here. You have to only add to GDP the net amount of value of the economic activity, not just add the value each time any component is traded. But that's pretty easy to get around, as there are very very few items that are usable that are components in other items. The biggest is that the T1 ships are needed to make T2 ships, which is easy to back out by simply backing out one T1 sale for each of the corresponding T2 ship sold. The same could be done for any other product usable in intermediate form, if any exist. Just counting the usable items at the end and not any components (which would mean my entire idea of counting minerals extracted is not good) would be the solution. Of course, I'm probably still missing something since I wasn't particularly good at it.
Yeah, that doesn't work either, because the T2 manufacturers might be making their own T1 ships. So, well, you can guess, maybe? Perhaps the way originally presented is a better way to calculate it - but it suffers from the same sort of problem as there's no real good way to tell when something is a "household" expense.
@@stevenglowacki8576 Holy wall of text batman. Thankyou so much for taking the time an effort to read this response, I appreciate almost everything you have added here. One defence I will make though is that when you discredited eve alliances as possessing a GDP I would point out that a nation is just a collection of states which is just a collection of household ETC. Of course an eve alliance is not a big as a national economy but it can still have a GDP. I mean in the real word a small town has a GDP even a household could be said to have a GDP of course nobody bothers to calculate these but it does not mean that a calculation would be invalid.
Anyway great discussion, I really hope you still enjoyed the video!
There are additional features of a real economy, as one would expect due to the cost of interstellar travel:
- The game will sell you insurance to cover the loss of your ship in battle. Better ships (more attractive targets) have a higher deductible. You don't get a payout if you are shot down by law enforcement due to criminal behaviour.
- Arbitrage leads to transport of goods between trading hubs when the cost of fuel to transport the cargo is less than the cost of the cargo itself.
- You can hire player-run corporations to transport goods for you. They charge you based on the volume of cargo, and they charge an insurance premium based on the security of the zones they will be crossing (lawless zones are more at risk than zones patrolled by law enforcement).
- To cover potential loss of your cargo in transit, the contract has the shipping company pay collateral, which you return in exchange for your goods when they arrive safely.
- Some shipments might be more valuable than the cost of your ship, in which case it makes sense to shoot down the shipping vessel and accept the loss of your ship to law enforcement (since you get your collateral back)
- Shipping companies therefore refuse contracts for the transport of grossly overvalued/hidden cargo to make sure the collateral matches the value of the goods, as a disincentive to you overinsuring your shipment with the intent of shoot them down or having an accomplice do so.
You left out the running costs of all the structures off the government spending bill
I assumed that would be a relitively minor expense and so I was very generous with the rounding of their welfare. Although that may have been an oversight could you give me an idea of how much of an expense this would really be?
@@EconomicsExplained The 'goverment spending bill' should also include
ammunition for structures, fuel for structures, all big space deployables such as citadels, Customs offices, jump bridges.
Investments should also (i guess) be citadels for research and planatary mining. All the structures can be found on zkillboard (i believe).
Where would export tax from planatary interaction fit in? If at all.
If interested in more let me know, this is all i can think at the top of my head right here and now.
It could be cool to have a site that shows all the different regions (groups) GDP output compared to eachother.
NOW! analyze the rest of the clans and calculate the total GRP, pretty please
Thank you for uploading this. You're a great youtuber, i appreciate you.
Everytime I see anything about EVE I'm like "Yeah! This time im gonna do it!" and then i quit after an hour. And come back a year later....
I'd like to see you provide GDP in terms of percentage of new eden.