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Any chance of getting some contact details of the affected lady with van A mate has a engineering shop and he is quite experienced in fixing stuff like this Certainly think a couple grand should resolve the issue I could pass it onto my mate Trouble with gal chassis is hot shortness in the welds cracking due to the sulphur in the galvanizing
I had this issue as a trailer manufacturer back in the 80's and 90's. I had the engineering department of Belfast university look into the problem. They came back with the information that the problem lay with the towing vehicle. Towing with a truck with stiff rear suspension puts too much strain on the drawbar as it bounces up and down which was why we were having failures with builders towing our trailers with tipper trucks when the trailers weredesighned for towing with pickup, Land Rovers, vans and cars. The problem is solved by putting a sprung tow bar on the tippers instead of the rigid ones, if you look at many larger trucks here in the UK which have towbars fitted you will see large springs or gas struts and maybe rubber buffers.
Quite interesting, I have heard similar stories as the suspension on the trucks were too stiff and the shock loading is transferred to the trailer, it's OK if you have a few ton of weight in the truck.
@@robpinter5431 It can also be a problem with the distance between the rear axle of the truck and the end of the trucks chassis where the tow bar is. Too big an overhang leads to a multiplication of the movement on a vertical plane the trailers drawbar moves every time the truck goes over a bump putting excessive bending forces onto the drawbar, in this case a single axle trailer is better as the trailer moves around the axis of the wheels more readily thus reducing some of the strain, can still be a problem though.
I had the same problem in my van when it was towed back to NSW from SA after a vehicle problem. It was fixed by welding and gussetting the affected chassis.
it can also be a problem with the trailer suspension, not having equalizing suspension. with builders using trucks i'll bet those trailers where overloaded to hell.
Thank for posting that. I had a drawbar crack on a trailer I towed with a 3 axle truck which to make matters worse, also had a long way from the back axle to the towbar. I had always considered the failure was caused by towing with the truck but had never seen anything to confirm this. A 20 tonne truck just doesn't notice a 2 tonne trailer. So thanks for the info, much appreciated. Always good to have a theory confirmed.
I have worked in the aviation industry for over 25 years and have been involved in some truly massive structural repairs. I am with you on on this. Pulling the van apart to repair/replace the chassis rails sounds absurd to me. If that frame is so highly stressed that a traditional welded repair cannot be incorporated then it was under engineered in the first place.
Personally I would drill out the heads of the cracks, vee-groove the bodies of the cracks, clamp them up, full-penno butt-weld it with 415V MIG, preferably dual-shielded, then weld some channel over the repaired section (or at least some side plates).
@@AutoExpertJC those rails are thin enough you can weld them up with a hobby welder. a family member does this for a living (trailers, farm, truck repairs) and they only have single phase welders.
Firstly, Trucks are well known for destroying the chassis of the caravan being towed. That is why you can buy cushioning hitches (eg Airglide) to try and prevent caravan damage. Secondly, why on earth would anyone use a weight distribution hitch when a 2.2T van is being towed by a Hino truck??
I am in America and have repaired RVs ( Caravans ) since way back in the 80's. In the past we repaired , gusseted and welded mostly on single axle lighter weight units. Mostly the failures were on Scamps and similar campers and some trailers. It was never dual axle RVs but always single axle units. The manufacturers used to put a bend in the A frame section in the horizontal in elevation from the main ladder frame level going higher in elevation to the hitch ball level. They always cracked from stresses from being overloaded and bucking or Porpoising while going down the road. A very critical thing was using too high of a capacity rating on the weight distribution hitch. Well if 500 lbs is good than 1,000 lb or 1200 lb rated hitch must be real good. I would see a 3500 lb single axle camper come in with a 1000 lb weight distribution hitch and all of the weight in the camper in the front end ahead of the axle and laying on the tongue. I spent a lot of time installing and setting up hitches correctly for people. Some days I just cringe when I see RVs roll down the interstate at 75 mph and the entire set up is running a foot lower in the middle at the hitch with a messed up weight dist. hitch all out of whack. The worst is too light of a vehicle pulling to large of an RV or trailer.
As a boilermaker who has worked in the transport industry for a number of years I find that your so right with what you have said ! The caravan draw bar is not designed for extra load at that point hence the damage ! Yes a decent boilermaker could easily repair and improve the design of the draw bar ! A lot of manufacturers go to lengths to use the bare minimum to save weight on the road for size of van because of the laws in vehicle towing etc! I could go on about this issue of tare weight etc and you've put on your site about the supposed towing capability of our new on road vehicles!! I wish the lady good luck with her insurance claim !!
You are absolutely correct John about the repairs. I have had 2 chassis failures within a year of each other on a van of the same size as this lady. I didn't have a weight distribution hitch. One was repaired in Alice Springs by qualified welders and was covered by insurance. It was $3200 for the first repair. The second repair the insurer had the vehicle towed over 700kms to my hometown (no cost to me) to a trailer manufacturer local to me and he welded and braced the chassis both sides with extra metal bracing at a cost of $3600. In both cases the van did not have to be disassembled they simply repaired it from underneath and I had cracks very similar to the lady in this video. I think if I were her I'd be seeking quotes for repairs elsewhere.
The wall thickness of that frame is inadequate. Trailer manufacturers want to make these vehicles as light as possible. My parents bought a 18 foot travel trailer in 1969. I used to help with hitching up and campground set up when I was that young. The frame was at least 2 times as thick as the frame in the pictures you are showing us. We had a very similar hitch system and traveled extensively all over the USA (coast to coast) for many years without a problem.
You hit the nail on the head 100 x 50 x 3mm wall minimum is the way to go metal fatigue in light steel will bring you undone every time I am a metal fab guy I have to fix this every week in trailers & Chan's this Preston is getting ripped off beyond the max
A truck is too stiff on the rear end to tow a van. I used to move cars. Often with a car trailer behind a small truck. Broke the A frame a few times before fitti8ng a sprung tow bar. There is no need for a weight distiubution hitch on the vehicle you describe. In most cases the weak link would be the towbar/rear chassis on the car, where the stress can really get out of hand. In the case you describe, the truck wins hands down.
The owner of my local caravan repair shop strongly recommends against weight distribution hitches as well. He observed that these hitches were fitted to all the vans he has seen with bent frames. II foolishly bought one, but stopped using it a number of years ago. I did this after listening to the advice of my caravan repairer and watching one of John ‘s other videos where he previously explained the risks of using one. So I can proudly tow my ordure across this this wide brown land with a lessened risk of chassis failure. John often notes the proximity of the ensuite to the kitchen. A good thing about having the Gary Glitter next to the kitchen, is that it is also close to the bathroom sink. So there is no need to wait until you have finished dropping the kids off at the pool before washing your hands. This allows you to more quickly get back to preparing the evening meal.
Multiple reasons to use one. Without compensation your headlights will be much higher, and your steering will be much lighter if it's a heavy enough load. You're creating a lever a significant distance behind your rear axle and pushing down on it with a fair bit of weight. Just because they don't build shit to be strong enough for use on the road doesn't mean you should have to operate it less safely.
@@Tb0n3You should never exceed the towball weight rating and the tow vehicle will have enough compensation built into it's suspension to handle the specified weight. A weight distribution tow hitch is not designed to counter this issue.
@@mondotv4216 Noice, but no. Many makers soften suspension to get a better ride. You can stiffen the rear suspension all you want. You can still wheel stand many cars and 4x4 vehicles with rated ball weight loaded. 350kg towball is like 4 moderately sized blokes bouncing up 'n down on the towbar. Imagine that at highway speed!
Highly agree with your comments. I've been towing caravans for 30 years now. I never use a WDH. I have always changed the suspension of the tow vehicle with a suitable after market replacement.
we have used WD hitches for towing various camper trailers for decades. But what we tow is well within the payload and towing capacity of our truck(ram 1500). our current trailer is a 26 ft 6000lb gross wt "caravan", actual weight on the road(loaded) is about 5500 lbs, 650 on the ball. yes i weighed it all! a big part of the issue with newer trailers is that they are making them lighter structurally, allowing for more fancy stuff inside for the same overall weight. a totally nonscientific peeking around under new trailers and comparing them to our 12 yr old trailer convinced me to keep ours
@@renners9636 question - what does he mean is a “truck” in the context of his discussion? The Australian market is unclear to me. For example, I notice that he never really mentions any 1-ton pickups. I wonder if the big pickups just aren’t a big thing in the Australian market.
@Rick Filipkowski no they are not. The price you pay is doubled by the time they are imported, converted and all costs incurred. $130,000 USD for say a diesel F250 here
I am a Structural Engineer with some knowledge of the performance of structural steel. I have researched that tow vehicle and it has a GVM of 4.5t and a rear axle max load of 4.4t with dual wheels. IE. It's a strong and rigid truck axle and it will have little compliance under light loads. Firstly, why was the load levelling device even used? It would seem that the tow vehicle has ample capacity to easily carry the towball downforce of that caravan and secondly that excess load capacity of the truck is a contributor to the caravan chassis failing. I'll explain... The lightly loaded truck rear axle is stiff and uncompliant and as the truck bounces over bumps a dynamic load is transmitted through the load bars into the caravan chassis acting to bend the A-frame. This imposed cyclic impact load is not a normal load that the A-frame was designed for and has resulted in fatigue cracks probably propagating from the heat affected zone and proximity of a poorly executed weld. Given the RHS used is likely to be only 3mm thick it simply tears easily from the crack initiation and as one stress point fails it increases the load on the next weak point which also fractures and so on. The owner was fortunate that the accumulating failures were not catastrophic. As to repairs, I would expect a competent welder could weld up the fractures and add some strengthening plates in a day providing it's accessible, the displacement can be realigned, and all cables etc inside the chassis rails can be protected from damage plus some touch up paint and it should be stronger than original. Oh. Get some qualified opinions about reusing the load levellers. Ciao.
You are exactly correct John. Driving down a main highway if the weight distribution system is set right and the van is evenly loaded is not a problem, but the minute you go off road and down undulating tracks and through creek crossings the with severe angle changes between the tow vehicle and the van the stress on the system is extreme. Loved the way you explained all this John.
Structural welder here. Yeah someone is having a lend. They can’t figure out how to fully weld the frame without pulling the caravan off it. The answer is that you have to reconstruct each beam in sections. You are probably not going to be able to just weld another piece of RHS in there. This job would cost a few thousand dollars at least. Not 50k. My other observation is that the existing frame appears to be thin wall RHS, maybe 1.6 mm. That’s not a structural section. The manufacturer has used the lightest material possible to keep the ball weight low, but I think it was never meant to be used with a weight distribution hitch. If the manufacturer or dealer fitted the hitch then they might be liable for repairs. I kind of understand why the insurance company would baulk at this since it is not collision damage, fire, or theft. It’s more a case of someone fitting a distribution hitch to a trailer that was not meant for it, and the liability should rest with them.
My understanding is that many caravan manufacturers will not guarantee the chassis if a weight distribution hitch is used. Also I think the WDH makers recommend removing the WDH before driving over any rough roads. Yeh right. If you draw your force diagrams you will find that without a WDH the forces on the a-frame part near the tow ball are actually quite small and thin section steel is all that is needed. However the WDH will put relatively huge bending forces on those same parts. If the frame is not designed specifically to handle a WDH then we have a problem.
Don't know of any van makers voiding anything if a WDH setup is used. Also know of many car makers who want them used. WDH makers I know of recommend removal for rough roads, reversing or spoon drain type situations.
@@David-ic8mm regardless, no point using one if you had to drive the Warrego, Gore or Newell highways, they are way too rough to have wdh units fitted. Best option for anti bounce is a suspension hitch and get a better combination, one that does not need a wdh unit to put weight back on the front end of the tug to make it stable.
I am sure that any number of competent chassis people could repair this to a good standard and for a far better price. A lot of fabricators for extreme 4x4 vehicles have a great deal of experience in the repair and proper reinforcement of very similar chassis. As a layman it looks like part of the issue is the awful geometry of the hitch system putting huge forces through a chassis that was never intended to carry them.
Too rigid springs in the tow vehicle....... more bounce to the ounce and more slam to the gram? The truck's springs bounce up violently because it is lighlty laden in comparison to a laden truck... and the drawbar of the van get's slammed up and down.... with the van chassis cracking at the point where the forces meet.. and where it flexes...
The worst things for towball weight are the extremely common fold out campers. They don’t weight much, but the old “10% of the weight on the ball” equation goes right out the window as the axles on them are way to the rear of the camper. This means that you can have something like a 1600kg camper with well above 200kg+ on the towball. I’ve seen one that weighed only 1400kg, but the ball weight was around 250kg. This can’t be good for the chassis.
Pretty well mate use to see cracked A frames on trailers and caravans when being towed by trucks particularly with drovers and farmers that would pull them around the country side.
the hitch is redundant when towing with a truck. i would be concerned with the extra jarring on the A frame due to the stiffness of the trucks rear suspension.
The problem with all pig trailers is the material used and the design. Most trailers have A frame welded to the chassis. First problem is flex and the second is the welding. 25 years ago I had a customer with a A frame that cracked all the time. He was fed up and wanted a cure. I use 5” C section not shitty RHS. Instead of making a A frame I take 2 pieces of C section and bend the ends to form the A frame and then box section the coupling attachment point. Running across the chassis I use C section again. On the bends for the A frame I fish plate . A rigid chassis that resist bending and will not crack. The cracking is due to flexing of the trailer , the suspension should be doing all the work not the chassis . To cap it all off I use shock absorbers on the axle to dampen the effects of corrugating. The trailer to date has never developed a single crack on either parent material or the welds. 3 years ago it was shot blasted , inspected and repaired without a single repair having to be done, The only reason I can think why trailer/ caravan builder don’t use C channel is cost and a slight weight disadvantage.
Stripping the van down to the bare bones sounds very much like a piss take. Many years ago, I had an old car that started to rust through on the cills. The repair was almost exactly the same as you described, cut out the damage, and weld in decent replacement steel. Passed its follow-up inspection no problem and carried on for a good while afterwards.
Hello John, well analysed and described, you are right, every action has an opposite and equal reaction (thank you Mr Newton) but I think a major problem here is that the frame would be Galvanised which, in it self, poses a further problem to the cut, shut and reweld and brace option as you mentioned, we all know that lateral welding a tube at or near a stress point is fraught with danger. Welding Galvanised steel is not that easy and should be done properly, I wonder if regalvanising the whole frame was part of the original quote. regards Jim
I worked for a company that built the frames for RVs in the states, and the designers from our company told me the companies that build the trailers design them to reduce weight, so the material used for the frame, most generally is half the thickness it needs to be, also we fixed a frame that collapsed and didn't have to take it apart to do it. It was also an aluminum frame,
So correct me if I'm wrong, John. The levelling hitch shifts the lower apex of the fulcrum to a structurally inferior position on the chassis of the towed 'thing' resulting in the catastrophic loss etc.. It kinda sounds like the levelling hitch people should (if not already) explain to prospective buyers the inherent risk of transferring their towball weight to an area that may have not been designed to tolerate such forces.
@robmotown1 Hmmm, confusing a satirical comment with political correctness is a long stretch. The next comment I make, I'll post a translation with 2 syllable words or less just for you champ.
Take it to Alko chassis repair centre in Campbellfield Victoria, I have seen them fix the same failure on a chassis, they can easily fix the problem exactly how John described. John’s explanation is 100% correct.
I repair trailers. Sometimes it is very difficult or impossible to weld when the structure on top is in the way. Beyond that obstacle repairing a trailer chassis isn't very difficult.
I'm really curious about the configuration of that Hino, as it must be quite heavily loaded to need a weight distribution hitch at all. The only thing I could imagine making that type of truck unsuited to towing would be combining a very short wheelbase with a long frame, where the hitch swings around far back from the drive axle.
As an American I was not familiar with a Hino. Looked them up and they don’t look like a caravan tow vehicle, more like what we call a Box Truck that would have a tow pindle rather than a tow ball.
I would think that on the balance of probability the weight distribution hitch had no effect on the failure of cracking the A-frame and chassis if used correctly. 100X50 rectangular section seems very small for this size and weight of the caravan. Likely higher carbon steel than you suggest. The rigidity of suspension of a small truck, the quickness to react to a bump, will cause the A-frame to bend in effort to change the caravan pitch. I do not see the need for a small truck to use a weight distribution hitch. I do see the need to have a dampened hitch on a small truck. Bad welding, heat zones, insufficient overlap and weld length, small section, type of steel and being dragged by a truck to be more probable causes for this cracking.
"Likely a higher carbon steel than you suggest" - rubbish. Using high(er)-carbon steel here would be a poor design choice. How can you even comment on the adequacy of the section size without knowing the dimensions and wall thickness, and other mechanical properties, and modelling the loads? (They're called 'facts'.)
That is a simple fix john is right on that and he's also right on the hitch with a hino truck it's a wonder you need that hitch 50k to get that fixed is a joke they r ripping you off
Got a local engineer who has already done this many times - for a hell of a lot less than $50k too... It's a recurring theme of underbuilding these trailers and chassis to keep the manufacturing costs down, but without the normal fish plating etc. to spread point loads over a decent length so many trailers and vans are just built with a hinge and a hard point, factory supplied failure points are not a sales gimmick that impresses me much.
Have done hundreds of these chassis repairs on trailers. Done the cut out or the road side repair and plate which last year's. Should be less than the GST of the quote. Happy to help if "Not happy Jan" needs it.
John, you are right on. I am also an engineer and understood it all. However, for those who are not drawings on your chart pack would have been helpful.
You know it is going to be an interesting trip when you lower the hitch on the ball and you see the hitch flex against the welds on the A-frame. So how many stress cycles can mild steel take before cracks show up?
A good reason to also bolt the hitch to the frame of the tow vehicle. Both my tow vehicles have bolted on hitches. Just check for tightness once a year while on a hoist changing oil or whatever.
@AutoExpertJohnCadogan You're really great at explaining somewhat technical engineering and physics concepts in an understandable, unique and humourous way! Please consider writing a book, regards from Scotland.
Be interested to know if D has a 50mm ball coupling on the trailer. If the tow vehicle has a GVM of 5000kg or over, the rating of the 50mm ball coupling is reduced. Formula is 50mm ball rating = GVM * 10,000,000 / (4903 * GVM - 10,000,000). There's a handy chart available through the NHVR. Similarly the hitch receiver rating is reduced. Formula identical but 10 million becomes 3.25 million. Check out the VSG-16 (Vehicle standards guide)
this is really good and essential information Matthew, - logic would then follow that the drawbar rating of the towed unit be reduced accordingly - vertically compliant hitches would address this (alt least from an engineering / physics perspectve, duno about the legal side of things)
100% on the money, was just about to post exactly that about the de-rate of coupling parts when used behind a truck, from memory it works out that a 3.5t hitch de-rates to just on 2.5t, pretty much because the rear overhang adds a whip over sharp bumps like potholes etc and where the energy can go into the tow vehicles suspension behind a 4wd and soften the thump, truck suspension is a LOT more solid, so the drawbar and coupling cop a lot more load
@@johnallen3555 the tow bar is not affected by this calculation. The ADR regulation applies to the 50mm ball and socket items only. My truck has a tow bar with a 6.8t rating. It is unaffected by the ruling regarding the 50mm balls and couplings.
As an American, I looked up what a Hino truck is… I wouldn’t even bother using a WD hitch behind something like that. I use one behind my F350 because my 33ft TT gets the old wind wag (more for the sway control), but the Hino trucks look big as hell.
There's absolutely no reason why this couldn't be repaired from the underside. It's a bitch of a job, working overhead, but it can be done. I had a whole drawbar refabricated for a 4.5 tonne ATM pig trailer; because the original had started cracking at the junction near the chassis. This cost about $2.5k. This is a common problem for commercial pig trailers because of their high mileage (this one probably has covered north of 500k km). Having said that, you want to be careful designing the repair and avoid welding to the top and bottom of the RHS, to avoid introducing notch discontinuities and HAZ on the parts that see the highest bending stresses. Usually loads are transferred by gussets to the sides of the hollow section, closer to the neutral axis. I wouldn't be surprised if bad design of the drawbar was an originating cause. I'd like to see some more photos showing exactly where the crack propagated from. I bet it was the toe of a weld or a weld dag on the bottom chord of the section.
I'm a boilermaker and I'd love to be paid $50,000 to fix this van.. be the best days work ever. But seriously, if the A frame is like many vans I've seen, welded below the box chassis, be a reasonably simple job to slice off the entire A frame, make a new one and weld it on.
About that $50K quote for repairs, could it be that someone is preying on a widow? I unfortunately know that there are some shops in the US that would take that job, repair the chassis as John suggested, and send it out with the bill SAYING they disassembled the whole thing. Maybe Aussie shops are more above board.
Most caravans have a disclaimer in their warranty book that they are not made to be towed with trucks or commercial vehicles. This appears to be due to the hard ride on stiffer suspension. The next issue is the repairer with that absurd quote is leaving themselves open to a huge problem in the future. If you undertake repairs for insurance, you take on a lifetime warranty. Most customers assume this is for the entire van and all its issues. If have a torn chassis come in, it gets written off. Privately with a disclaimer on the invoice i have repaired several for customers i know with great results. Always with 5mm steel, carried back to the spring mounts so the flex between end of drawbar and suspension that hapens with short finished ones dissapears. The average drawbar is 2.7mm on most( minimum standard) but many are coming through at 2mm max and 1.2mm elsewhere on the chassis, which is way too light. My repaired ones are regularly through my workshop and none have failed when done like this. Finally all weight distribution hitches have instructions to remove when travelling through washouts, rough tracks, also not to do tight u turns, mini roundabouts (right hand turn 3/4 around those pissy little ones) with bar in place for the stress reasons discussed. They help removed for reverse parking into a tight spot also vecause they want to straighten out to equalise the pressures on chains. I set them up for customers and explain what they can and cant do, we look for a slight rear down position, with the front wheel arch back to unladen height to keep the download on tyres close to what it was to prevent steering getting overly light and not gripping the road. In test driving they perform well and brake in a straight line when set up well and used as instructed, not just 5 chains caus Bob said so. Done badly they are a dangerous item as they make everything behave terribly. They are not meant to be a fix for overloading or poor vehicle choice.
Kedron and the like, they specify a suspension hitch must be used with their vans on US Pickups and Isuzu type trucks in particular, they are thge only things can tow their larger vans at all. If only people bought appropriate combinations, we would never need WDHs at all.
Also, 40k to repair cracks 600mm back on an a frame!? Trailer frames aren't that extravagant! You are covering this but I've had "A" frames repaired, they literally replace the steel. Better to go to another repairer. My parents have timeshare at an ex caravan park that leaned into units, was big in the 80s, and all the vans were rotton by the mid 2000s and fell apart when attempting to tow away. I see this happening again.
Yeah. Just pull any wire routing from the section, jack it up to level, weld the crack to start then insert either a smaller dimension channel or some plate with welds. It's only difficult around bolts and cross members.
The difference between the truck suspension and the van behavior on the road is dramatic the truck has short travel stiff suspension designed to Handel heavy load and not very conducent or compliment to taking shock out of road irregularities delivered to van a frame chassis it hasent got much to do with the load distribution hitch being the culprit most trucks use a pintle hook and tow a van or trailer that has heavy duty chassis and a frame to avoid stress cracking I have found that the load distribution system regains the supple part of the rear suspension very much needed for better ride and control and stress reduction and have used the system for a very long time with great results
Absolutely, many truck manufacturers refuse to warrant their chassis if you use a WDH and do not use a Suspension/shock hitch, Isuzu is one such case. In fact Kedron Vans will not warrant their vans when towed by trucks if you do not use an Airsafe hitch. A Hino truck should not need a WDH for a 2.8t van in any case, sounds like her hubby was conned by a salesman or listened to too much campfire BS. I will not use a WDH on my 3.2t van behind my 2500HD Chev, I do however have a GenY 4.5t Boss hitch and the difference in ride for the van especially is phenomenal. I would suggest that her breakage is as a direct result of using the WDH on a truck with stiff suspension, exactly what some manufacturers have warned about. I would suggest anyone towing a van with a truck look at using a suspension hitch such as a GenY or Airsafe.
The "boiler maker" described repair on the draw bar would be all that is needed to create a full repair. With very easily upgraded strength outcome. The disassembly of the whole caravan is very doubtfully needed to fix a draw bar issue. Possibly the only issue is if the chassis draw bar was galvanized, the internal surfaces may be subject to accelerated corrosion due to the burning off of the gal coating on the inside of the tube, especially if the tube is open at the ends. Having built a number of car and plant trailers, I suspect that such a repair should be done for under $3k with welding with reinforcement plates designed to minimise stress concentrations in the tensile load areas and three good coats of paint to the exterior and two flood coats to the interior. If the fish plates are to be designed in to be on the inside of the tube (yes it can be structurally done) with all the welding plug welded and ground flush to minimise the visual impact of the repair, then add about another $1k. All guesstimates without seeing the damage. There is a warranty aspect to the repair of the draw bar with taking apart the caravan, if there is any warranty left on the 2017 van. Just fixing the draw bar removes all the issues with the gremlins that get into the caravan interior when it is pulled apart. In regard to the insurance policy, they generally only cover Accident, Fire and Theft. They do not cover structural damage or breakdowns of any sort that did not originate from an accident or theft. The insurance companies do not cover catastrophic collapse. Poor design or abuse is not covered. As you stated the trailer was not designed to take the weight distribution hitches. The R&D, that you speak of, has failed to account for this problematic loading. The argument would be whether the manufacturer should have allowed for weight distribution Hitch loading. This is a very similar problem of the crew cabs breaking their back, something that you have highlighted. These can be successfully welded with the cab on. The only disadvantage is that with the welded fish plates on the draw bar, it will be obvious that a repair was carried out and this may affect the resale value of the trailer. but at $50k cheaper in value there is no question that financially she (Dee) would be better off having the draw bar repaired.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge about impact of weight distribution hitches in how they transfer loading. Very well explained and easy to comprehend.
That failure would of still happened without the wdh as the trucks stiff suspension destroys A frames. Mate lost his 3T boat into scrub this way. Why the wdh in the first place too?
Based on what one might find underneath the rear of a particularly worldly Territory, D is very fortunate that she applied this particular van and weight distribution kit to a truck.
Similar to a chassis extension with plates all round, especially on the taller surfaces, would be the way to go. I'm a retired metal fabricator (boilermaker) and I could fix that and it would be stronger than original, for a fraction of the $50k.
John. I sent this to a mate that fixes Noddy owner boat trailers.. ie. Big boat, cheap trailer.. He said it can be fixed by just grabbing some Decent u channel steel. Approximately 3 feet long.. and welding it on. Thus creating a stronger subframe.. Dismantling the van is bs.. And he also said owner should contact manufacturer..
I think a lot of people think they are anti- sway devices. I had no idea how they work until watching a previous video of yours. I have a small gooseneck van so have no experience with them.
When using a weight distribution hitch, it is important to not use bars with a weight rating far exceeding the tongue weight of the caravan. As you point out, if you traverse a dip, the junction between the caravan and the tow vehicle is going to make a V. If the bars are for a much higher tongue weight, they will exert much greater forces on the tongue of the caravan. Unfortunately, many people think that a little overkill is better and buy bars with too high of a tongue weight rating.
Hayman Reese instructs that the WDH must be disconnected before crossing spoon drains etc. How many do this? I maintain that if needed then the tow vehicle is too small or the caravan too big. Don’t forget it also adds 30kg to combination that is probably overweight already
Spot on John, best thing I ever did was to remove the weight distribution hitch from my Jeep Grand Cherokee and our 20’ Caravan, ride was improved as well as doing tight turns, I felt that with the hitch on the Caravan was controlling the car, not the other way around. I now have a perfectly level set up by simply adding air bags to the inside of the rear coils, works a treat..the ride is now smooth and fuss free, we hardly notice the Caravan on the back, over 18,000 km and no issues. Weight Distribution Hitch’s are rubbish and should be banned in my option..
That wasn't what he was saying. There are use-cases for a WDH if you are willing to put in the work/expense to get it there. ie. you need an engineer to assess the vehicle and the van as a entire combination. . "We hardly notice the caravan.." is a bit concerning too...
@@craigenglish7046 the GC uses coil springs in the rear. Adding airbags to coil springs does not change the point at which the load is applied to the chassis or any other suspension components. This is perfectly safe and reliable. You have confused this with adding airbags to a leaf spring setup - which is very different and will load the chassis at points that were never intended to be loaded..... Hence the many reported chassis failures on utes with airbags added.
I've only just come across this, so I'm presuming its been long resolved. Many many things to consider here. 1). Why on earth was a weight distribution hitch being utilised on a truck, as its not able to achieve what its designed to do, share distribution over axles, it's unable to compress the front spring rate and lift a truck tray load. 2). The caravan chassis is always the weak point in relation to a truck chassis, always. They break irrespective of a weight distribution hitch being utilised, and as I said, shouldn't have been utilised. Required suspended tow bar instead. 3). The repairer is correct in his presumption the caravan requires total assessment. Yes John, the drawbar is the issue but as you said there has now been chassis flex, that flex has translated throughout the construction integrity of the entire van chassis & body frame. A simple "A" frame & chassis repair does not address structure integrity of the vans body frame. Also John, how do you do a comprehensive "But" weld when the top chassis tube is inaccessible by the van flooring and furniture. 4). The repairer has to warrant his work for the vans Lifetime under insurance repair, doing a "A" frame repair would get the van back on the road, but the cupboards falling out as the bodies frame is flexing would fall back on the repairer, hence his covering his but in the assesment. Correct in his thougher assessment. 5). Weight distribution set up correctly is an absolute necessity in my opinion. There is simply no other alternative to lifting a sagging arse, getting headlight beam back in range and having weight over steering axle, the primary braking axle, as the front axle does 60+% of a vehicles braking. Weight distribution does exactly as it aludes to, distrbutes ball weight ovef all axles evenly, front, rear & van axle/s. 6). Not addressed by John, but always aluded to as an answer to sagging bum. No, air bags in the rear aren't the answer, they just lift the rear, they don't distribute weight to front steer or braking axle nor do they re-align headlight beam.
I would have thought a WD hitch would not be required on a tow vehicle with heavy duty suspension such as a Hino Trade ace. The heavy duty suspension in comparison to an SUV or ute should be able to carry the tow ball load sufficiently on its own. WD hitches put additional load on the A frame, the harsher suspension ride of the truck would exagerate those loads through the A frame. So I would suggest the combination of a WD hitch and HD suspension pack are no good for each other in this case.
My experience says it's because of the truck. I have seen caravans not much heavier then that snap solid steel tongues and 70mm balls because of the jarring ride and can only imagine the fatigue caused to the A frame. Also used a hint with an air glide towbar pulling the same trailers with zero failures using a standard ball and tongue.
I just purchased a new aluminium trailer 16' x 7' x 7' cargo trailer, towed it home empty in 30 mph winds. Not a good trip. The primary problem was sway. Short term solution was to buy 200# of concrete mix and through it in the front, of the axles, 80% solution. Purchased and Anderson Hitch primarily because I get anti sway and load distribution. Super happy with the outcome but, because stress into the a frame is real will be checking with the manufacturer. I will has a matter of good form load the trailer wisely and observe the good protocols for load on the tongue of truck, 2023 F150 with the big tow package. I do routinely tow loads greater than the weight of the truck, 7,000# load and trailer behind the F150, while done right sag is minimal the Andersen brings the truck back up about an inch, the anti sway appears to be highly effective, I do have to turn of the antisway built into the truck dynamic vehicle control. Life with the device is far superior to with out, even when it appears I could get away without it. Your point is well taken and thank you again for being the educator you are.
Thanks for the video. I was considering a weight distributor but you’ve adjusted my thinking. I’ve naively been assuming that the trailer manufacturer would have designed for this.
It must be nice to live in a country that has a full range of Japanese light commercial trucks. We have Hino here in USA, but we have about 2 choices, 155 and 195, with a choice of Aisin 6 speed auto, or an Isuzu NPR with the same transmission.
We have them in abundance. Many people buy them for touring/overlanding and some use them as a daily driver for work over a landcruiser because of the cost.
Putting adjustable Koni rear shocks with a higher extension rate on a light truck reduces the bucking force/acceleration of the tow bar. It also improves the ride considerably.
The repairer must be of the same type of breed as one who did a insurance quote on my old shed when the next door neighbours tree decided to fall on the corner of it and denting a few sheets. 3 pieces of colourbond trimdeck sheeting 4meters long, 2 meters of guttering and flashing..... $11500 the whole shed kit was 10K 2 years earlier
The simplest way to fix said caravan would be to unbolt the body from the chassis, roll the old chassis out from underneath, and roll a new one in. That quote is her being absolutely taken to the cleaners. All they've done is looked up the replacement cost of the van, quoted somewhere around half that, and know that they can likely buy a new chassis from the manufacturer for under $10k and spend a maximum two days (so another couple of thousand in hourly rates) swapping it out.
Reminds me of certain BMW vehicles in the early seventies which were basically sedans designed for av1200cc motor but fitted with much more powerful BMW 1800 and 2000 engines. The front subframes all cracked up under stress. This could be fixed by expert welders repairing cracks and reiforcing as explained by JC. Engone had to pulled out and subframe removed to tje specilist workshop . Couple of hundred bucks - not cheap in seventies but definitely a lot less than 50 grand.
OMG, we may be twins separated at birth. I have hated distribution hitches since I was a curious kid and have hated the mobile mould boxes at least as long.
Back in the 80's we used to fit spring hitches to trucks and firmly sprung 4x4's to protect caravan and small trailer chassis front the shock loads imparted by the tow vehicle. It wasn't uncommon to see broken trailer chassis if they weren't used. Adding a WDH just aggravates the already bad situation. I'm no lover of insurance companies trying to get out of claims, but should they be liable for someone's decision to install exactly the wrong equipment for purpose to both tow vehicle and towed equipment? This failure is exactly the same as we were seeing 40 years ago when vans were built better, but 40 years ago we had a solution. I don't understand why people haven't learnt anything.... sorry, I forgot about the $50k
It sounds more like a problem of modern shit vehicles. My father towed a 25 foot airstream trailer with his 1979 Dodge Maxi van for over 20 years with a Reese hitch ,never had a cracked frame put over 250,000 miles on it ( that's like 200 billion km).
I'm not an expert in this matter and never intend on becoming one. That said though, a lot of caravaners fail to remove the hitches when traversing rough terrain. When I say, "rough terrain", I mean going over speed humps or transitioning from a steep driveway or boat ramp to a level surface or traversing culverts etc. These are all pretty normal circumstances to encounter when towing, but it is at these times when the highest loads are placed upon the trailer chassis, more so than under braking and may make demands of the trailer chassis that are beyond its specification. It's my understanding that this is fairly widely known in the boating community. From my observations of watching people come and go from our local caravan park, on a daily basis, it appears to not be that well understood in the caravan community. I hope this helps someone understand the limitations a little better.
Any idea why that tow vehicle would have any use for a WDH? I 100% agree that a much more simple and cost effective repair could be done. Maybe then the insurance will come to the party.
Great video, I often tow my little trailer behind my Rav 4 overloaded with rubbish to the landfall, yes a disaster about to happen. I always load the trailer so that the downward load on the tow ball is not heavy and drive slowly. If we load a caravan to get the correct down ward load on the tow ball, we should not need any tow bar springs. Most caravan towers have no idea what there tow ball downward weight is. I do own a 4ton motorhome so l am not anti caravans, but most caravans on the road are a disaster about to happen.
Absolutely agree with the first comment. Towing a caravan with a heavy commercial vehicle of any make with ridged heavy suspension would distroy most trailers and caravans in a flash. Commercial trailers for towing say a small excavator or roller are built much heavier especially in the draw bar to handle the constant sheer forces of the pounding from the heavy springing. Unless it was a well build off road caravan and even with a sprung towbar it's destined for failure w.d. hitch or not.
Yet every circus in the country (the real circus) are dragging around a fleet of god knows how old vans with ridgid trucks dating from the 1970's, '80's and if they are lucky the '90's.. you telling me every town they roll into, they are replacing the A frames on their vans! 🤣🤣🤣🤣 NO! The mild steel we are getting here today is crap to start with, low quality, manufacturing using the absolute minimum grade materials, cheaply done and that is even if they are still made in this country to begin with! Alot are not, just gal dipped here when unloaded from the boat. maximum profits extracted is whats causing this to occur more often. And caravan companies hiding behind disclaimers in fine print of any crappy issues. Had a caravan from the 1980s it was just half a box frame with and axel, some 50x50 angle in a square with ply board on top, held together with a few screws then a bolsar wood frame with aluminium stapled around it! Take the windows and door out, remove the chipboard cupboards and leaning on it would fold in half.. amazed at the prices people pay for these things!
Removing the body sounds extreme and conservative, but the a frame looks parallel to the chassis rails. I’ve replaced a frames without hoisting, but if it’s cracked the rails, welding the top of the tube is nigh on impossible. Never judge the required repairs until you see it.
Why not just apply a 50% correction. So your rear axle will dip a little, but the load is drastically reduced on the A frame. Also a significant improvement in driving performance.
Weight distribution hitch asside, from those photos there's perhaps an argument to be made for a manufacturing defect as well. Welding across a drawbar is a clear rookie mistake. Anyone with any kind of trade involving the occasional use of a welder should know that. As you said, weld something and you get a heat affected zone. You weaken the material at the point right next to the weld and increase the stress at that same point as it will often be thinnier in cross section (compared to the weld bead) etc. Putting that HAZ amd stress riser right across the part of the RHS experiencing the highest loads is just plain dumb. Another minor contributing factor may also be the tow vehicle itself. If the back of that little truck has virtually no load in it, the stiffness of the suspension in the rear will also work to increase the loads imposed on the drawbar. Either way, the repair cost given was clearly a "we don't want this job" price. Very limited photos, but from the description it should just be a matter of pulling it straight and welding the chassis, welding a couple of nice diamond plates to the side and building a new drawbar. A few hundred dollars in materials, maybe a days labour. Tops a couple of grand.
Personaly once fixed I would be lookign at getting something other than a tow ball to affix or attach the trailer to the truck for better load distribution without using the usless load distribution add on.
In Uk and Europe all tow bars have type approval from the car manufacturer. Weight distribution hitches are not technically legal except for cars made before 1998 when the type approval laws came in to force.
To achieve max towing ability specified by Ford an approved load levelling kit must be fitted on my model . This applies when towing anything over 1800kgs for my vehicle . Warning stickers were on the genuine towbar . I found this at one point when I was considering a used ute . I ended up with an ex-demo .
Brilliant explanation on WD hitches, finally learning how they apply torque makes so much sense. doing this is a fine idea, just poorly executed. torque is force x distance, so longer spring arms would reduce the force applied to the trailer(caravan) frame. only issue is packaging such a device. then onto the repair, completely absurd quote. simple fab/welding, maybe some doubler plates.. shouldn't cost anywhere near that much.
Sounds like profit maximisation to me. Its not as if that frame is made of heat treated steel. A competent fabrication shop could replace the affected area better than new. The only question is the legality - Australia seems to be completely over the top with regulation. Actually and very unusually, I side with the insurance company. Neither the vehicle nor the van were designed to withstand the loads imposed. Also fatigue cracking is indeed wear & tear, just on a molecular level.
Towed a medium sized van for over 12 months around Australia. Set the suspension up correctly before the trip making a weight distribution hitch unnecessary Always hated the things anyway,.
@@Low760 The springs are shocks were 10 years old before I started the trip. Replacements were needed. They were of a heavier duty than the under spring stock leaves. John's information is not suited to every vehicle.
I can think of one actual use for a WDH. FWD vehicle with limited traction. The WDH will transfer weight to the drive axle. Which basically indicates that you're trying to tow more than the vehicle wants to have hitched to it. The real problem with WDHs causing frame damage is that the springs are waaaay too stiff. I've never used a WDH. There's a reason why we have 5th wheel and gooseneck hitches---.
Yes, some weight is also put back onto the wheels, often this will overload the axles of the van. Hence forth making the rig illegal and non compliant.
Just a quick question. Could the fact that the suspension on the truck is to hard and all the bumps are being transferred and doubled through the weaker chassis and draw bar on the caravan. I know people using the Ram and Silverado USA truck style ute are having this problem and are putting (Not sure of the correct name) but they are tow hitches with springs or air bag system in them. Could this harshness between truck and van course this problem
You need to educate the RV dealers because they have no idea of the dynamics of this style of hitch. I told them I didn't want one because I couldn't rational why you would put a vertical bending force of the RV frame to midgait sway. It would seem more rational to replace the side bars with long pull hydraulic shocks. The dealers comment to me was, well, this is the way we have always done it.
I used a weight dist hitch on an 84 Suburban with a 20 ft Wilderness trailer. Your problem is the trailer and tow vehicle are not well built and heavy duty. My father in law owned a welding shop and when the chassis broke he rewelded the chassis and welded on strengthening panels. No problem
My vehicle tow placard specifies to use a load leveling device if towing more than 1600kg. I’m extremely careful to only use it on the straight and level so to speak, no turning sharp, no driveways, spoon drains etc.
Truck manufacturers recommend you don't. Many van makers will not warrant a van when used on a truck unless you use an air shocker or GenY hitch, or similar. WDHs are all but forbidden.
@@rossatkinson3160 as I said- my vehicle manufacturer mandates them ! Air shockers - or airbag suspension, pumped up to level the vehicle removes weight the steer axle (bad!) and adds it to the rear axle, in some cases overlies rating ! (Also bad!) Don’t believe me? Do the studies for yourself- put scales under all wheels, pump the tow vehicle up level and look at the results. You cannot deny the laws of physics. Moment arm…
In my opinion Weight Distribution Hitches should be banned. Whenever I see them used they are being employed in a situation where the tow vehicle is towing something it really shouldnt be towing. For example a Ford Territory with a 22ft van on it, or a dual cab ute towing some 26ft monstrosity to Dingo Piss Ck. I have seen the hitch ripped out of the back of a vehicle on the road to Camerons Corner, and they were using a WDH.
Could not agree more. Hence why I upgraded the tow tug for my 3.15t Transparent Aluminium Shitoirre (hope I spelt that right, JC) to a Chev 2500HD pickup. Only issue is like the Isuzu trucks, they need a suspension hitch.
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Any chance of getting some contact details of the affected lady with van
A mate has a engineering shop and he is quite experienced in fixing stuff like this
Certainly think a couple grand should resolve the issue
I could pass it onto my mate
Trouble with gal chassis is hot shortness in the welds cracking due to the sulphur in the galvanizing
I had this issue as a trailer manufacturer back in the 80's and 90's. I had the engineering department of Belfast university look into the problem. They came back with the information that the problem lay with the towing vehicle. Towing with a truck with stiff rear suspension puts too much strain on the drawbar as it bounces up and down which was why we were having failures with builders towing our trailers with tipper trucks when the trailers weredesighned for towing with pickup, Land Rovers, vans and cars. The problem is solved by putting a sprung tow bar on the tippers instead of the rigid ones, if you look at many larger trucks here in the UK which have towbars fitted you will see large springs or gas struts and maybe rubber buffers.
Quite interesting, I have heard similar stories as the suspension on the trucks were too stiff and the shock loading is transferred to the trailer, it's OK if you have a few ton of weight in the truck.
@@robpinter5431 It can also be a problem with the distance between the rear axle of the truck and the end of the trucks chassis where the tow bar is. Too big an overhang leads to a multiplication of the movement on a vertical plane the trailers drawbar moves every time the truck goes over a bump putting excessive bending forces onto the drawbar, in this case a single axle trailer is better as the trailer moves around the axis of the wheels more readily thus reducing some of the strain, can still be a problem though.
I had the same problem in my van when it was towed back to NSW from SA after a vehicle problem. It was fixed by welding and gussetting the affected chassis.
it can also be a problem with the trailer suspension, not having equalizing suspension. with builders using trucks i'll bet those trailers where overloaded to hell.
Thank for posting that. I had a drawbar crack on a trailer I towed with a 3 axle truck which to make matters worse, also had a long way from the back axle to the towbar. I had always considered the failure was caused by towing with the truck but had never seen anything to confirm this. A 20 tonne truck just doesn't notice a 2 tonne trailer. So thanks for the info, much appreciated. Always good to have a theory confirmed.
I have worked in the aviation industry for over 25 years and have been involved in some truly massive structural repairs. I am with you on on this. Pulling the van apart to repair/replace the chassis rails sounds absurd to me. If that frame is so highly stressed that a traditional welded repair cannot be incorporated then it was under engineered in the first place.
Personally I would drill out the heads of the cracks, vee-groove the bodies of the cracks, clamp them up, full-penno butt-weld it with 415V MIG, preferably dual-shielded, then weld some channel over the repaired section (or at least some side plates).
Pfft. Nothin a bit of fencing wire won’t fix.
@@AutoExpertJC That's pretty standard procedure as far as I'm aware. Well tried and tested. I think this is a "woman driver...jackpot!" scenario here.
@@AutoExpertJC those rails are thin enough you can weld them up with a hobby welder. a family member does this for a living (trailers, farm, truck repairs) and they only have single phase welders.
@@Pat.Mustard Duct tape.
Firstly, Trucks are well known for destroying the chassis of the caravan being towed. That is why you can buy cushioning hitches (eg Airglide) to try and prevent caravan damage.
Secondly, why on earth would anyone use a weight distribution hitch when a 2.2T van is being towed by a Hino truck??
That was exactly my train of thought. Other comments are right on saying you need to use a sprung tow hitch
That is also part of the reason a 50mm ball and coupling is derated when used on a tow vehicle over 4500KG
Exactly…. User error
@@94Gidgeactually, the deration applies from 5000kgs gvm. Not 4500kgs gvm.
I am in America and have repaired RVs ( Caravans ) since way back in the 80's. In the past we repaired , gusseted and welded mostly on single axle lighter weight units. Mostly the failures were on Scamps and similar campers and some trailers. It was never dual axle RVs but always single axle units. The manufacturers used to put a bend in the A frame section in the horizontal in elevation from the main ladder frame level going higher in elevation to the hitch ball level.
They always cracked from stresses from being overloaded and bucking or Porpoising while going down the road. A very critical thing was using too high of a capacity rating on the weight distribution hitch.
Well if 500 lbs is good than 1,000 lb or 1200 lb rated hitch must be real good.
I would see a 3500 lb single axle camper come in with a 1000 lb weight distribution hitch and all of the weight in the camper in the front end ahead of the axle and laying on the tongue.
I spent a lot of time installing and setting up hitches correctly for people.
Some days I just cringe when I see RVs roll down the interstate at 75 mph and the entire set up is running a foot lower in the middle at the hitch with a messed up weight dist. hitch all out of whack.
The worst is too light of a vehicle pulling to large of an RV or trailer.
I love weight distribution, I tell my wife she needs to sit in the 3rd row for safety reasons when we hitch up the van.
There’s no safety in that conversation
@@JimBob-vb8oz he means ex wife
You need a hefty wife for that 😂
You're a thrillseeker mate. Very thin ice.
That's funny I don't care who you are!!
As a boilermaker who has worked in the transport industry for a number of years I find that your so right with what you have said ! The caravan draw bar is not designed for extra load at that point hence the damage ! Yes a decent boilermaker could easily repair and improve the design of the draw bar ! A lot of manufacturers go to lengths to use the bare minimum to save weight on the road for size of van because of the laws in vehicle towing etc! I could go on about this issue of tare weight etc and you've put on your site about the supposed towing capability of our new on road vehicles!! I wish the lady good luck with her insurance claim !!
You are absolutely correct John about the repairs. I have had 2 chassis failures within a year of each other on a van of the same size as this lady. I didn't have a weight distribution hitch. One was repaired in Alice Springs by qualified welders and was covered by insurance. It was $3200 for the first repair. The second repair the insurer had the vehicle towed over 700kms to my hometown (no cost to me) to a trailer manufacturer local to me and he welded and braced the chassis both sides with extra metal bracing at a cost of $3600. In both cases the van did not have to be disassembled they simply repaired it from underneath and I had cracks very similar to the lady in this video. I think if I were her I'd be seeking quotes for repairs elsewhere.
The wall thickness of that frame is inadequate. Trailer manufacturers want to make these vehicles as light as possible. My parents bought a 18 foot travel trailer in 1969. I used to help with hitching up and campground set up when I was that young. The frame was at least 2 times as thick as the frame in the pictures you are showing us. We had a very similar hitch system and traveled extensively all over the USA (coast to coast) for many years without a problem.
You hit the nail on the head 100 x 50 x 3mm wall minimum is the way to go metal fatigue in light steel will bring you undone every time
I am a metal fab guy I have to fix this every week in trailers & Chan's this Preston is getting ripped off beyond the max
A truck is too stiff on the rear end to tow a van. I used to move cars. Often with a car trailer behind a small truck. Broke the A frame a few times before fitti8ng a sprung tow bar.
There is no need for a weight distiubution hitch on the vehicle you describe. In most cases the weak link would be the towbar/rear chassis on the car, where the stress can really get out of hand. In the case you describe, the truck wins hands down.
The owner of my local caravan repair shop strongly recommends against weight distribution hitches as well. He observed that these hitches were fitted to all the vans he has seen with bent frames. II foolishly bought one, but stopped using it a number of years ago. I did this after listening to the advice of my caravan repairer and watching one of John ‘s other videos where he previously explained the risks of using one. So I can proudly tow my ordure across this this wide brown land with a lessened risk of chassis failure.
John often notes the proximity of the ensuite to the kitchen. A good thing about having the Gary Glitter next to the kitchen, is that it is also close to the bathroom sink. So there is no need to wait until you have finished dropping the kids off at the pool before washing your hands. This allows you to more quickly get back to preparing the evening meal.
Gary Glitter !😂😂😂😂
Multiple reasons to use one. Without compensation your headlights will be much higher, and your steering will be much lighter if it's a heavy enough load. You're creating a lever a significant distance behind your rear axle and pushing down on it with a fair bit of weight. Just because they don't build shit to be strong enough for use on the road doesn't mean you should have to operate it less safely.
@@Tb0n3You should never exceed the towball weight rating and the tow vehicle will have enough compensation built into it's suspension to handle the specified weight. A weight distribution tow hitch is not designed to counter this issue.
@@mondotv4216 lol no. I own an F150 and the hitch literally says the limit is 5000# without a weight distribution hitch and 11,000# with it.
@@mondotv4216 Noice, but no. Many makers soften suspension to get a better ride. You can stiffen the rear suspension all you want. You can still wheel stand many cars and 4x4 vehicles with rated ball weight loaded.
350kg towball is like 4 moderately sized blokes bouncing up 'n down on the towbar. Imagine that at highway speed!
Highly agree with your comments.
I've been towing caravans for 30 years now. I never use a WDH. I have always changed the suspension of the tow vehicle with a suitable after market replacement.
we have used WD hitches for towing various camper trailers for decades. But what we tow is well within the payload and towing capacity of our truck(ram 1500). our current trailer is a 26 ft 6000lb gross wt "caravan", actual weight on the road(loaded) is about 5500 lbs, 650 on the ball. yes i weighed it all!
a big part of the issue with newer trailers is that they are making them lighter structurally, allowing for more fancy stuff inside for the same overall weight.
a totally nonscientific peeking around under new trailers and comparing them to our 12 yr old trailer convinced me to keep ours
In the context of this video a Ram 1500 is not a truck.
Also a ram 1500 is not a truck.
@@renners9636 question - what does he mean is a “truck” in the context of his discussion? The Australian market is unclear to me. For example, I notice that he never really mentions any 1-ton pickups. I wonder if the big pickups just aren’t a big thing in the Australian market.
@Rick Filipkowski no they are not. The price you pay is doubled by the time they are imported, converted and all costs incurred. $130,000 USD for say a diesel F250 here
@@FiliSuperDuty 'Murican call utes ....truck
Meanwhile, back in the uk, a truck is a vehicle to deliver goods and is at least 7.5 ton going up to 44 ton normal or more with a movement order.
I'd suggest to you that a quote of $50k+ is a quote that says I DON'T want anything to do with this !
We tow our van with a light truck ,we fitted a OZ Glide air hitch (Aus designed and manufactured) to the van.👌.Is an absolute perfect combination.
I fully agree with you Shane, we tow with a 4x4 Mercedes Atego truck also with the Ausglide Air Hitch. Works a treat !
Trucks have fairly stiff springs. It may need a air bag on the drawbar to take the shake out of it. You can buy them.
I am a Structural Engineer with some knowledge of the performance of structural steel.
I have researched that tow vehicle and it has a GVM of 4.5t and a rear axle max load of 4.4t with dual wheels. IE. It's a strong and rigid truck axle and it will have little compliance under light loads.
Firstly, why was the load levelling device even used?
It would seem that the tow vehicle has ample capacity to easily carry the towball downforce of that caravan and secondly that excess load capacity of the truck is a contributor to the caravan chassis failing.
I'll explain...
The lightly loaded truck rear axle is stiff and uncompliant and as the truck bounces over bumps a dynamic load is transmitted through the load bars into the caravan chassis acting to bend the A-frame. This imposed cyclic impact load is not a normal load that the A-frame was designed for and has resulted in fatigue cracks probably propagating from the heat affected zone and proximity of a poorly executed weld.
Given the RHS used is likely to be only 3mm thick it simply tears easily from the crack initiation and as one stress point fails it increases the load on the next weak point which also fractures and so on.
The owner was fortunate that the accumulating failures were not catastrophic.
As to repairs, I would expect a competent welder could weld up the fractures and add some strengthening plates in a day providing it's accessible, the displacement can be realigned, and all cables etc inside the chassis rails can be protected from damage plus some touch up paint and it should be stronger than original.
Oh. Get some qualified opinions about reusing the load levellers.
Ciao.
You are exactly correct John. Driving down a main highway if the weight distribution system is set right and the van is evenly loaded is not a problem, but the minute you go off road and down undulating tracks and through creek crossings the with severe angle changes between the tow vehicle and the van the stress on the system is extreme. Loved the way you explained all this John.
Structural welder here. Yeah someone is having a lend. They can’t figure out how to fully weld the frame without pulling the caravan off it. The answer is that you have to reconstruct each beam in sections. You are probably not going to be able to just weld another piece of RHS in there. This job would cost a few thousand dollars at least. Not 50k.
My other observation is that the existing frame appears to be thin wall RHS, maybe 1.6 mm. That’s not a structural section. The manufacturer has used the lightest material possible to keep the ball weight low, but I think it was never meant to be used with a weight distribution hitch. If the manufacturer or dealer fitted the hitch then they might be liable for repairs.
I kind of understand why the insurance company would baulk at this since it is not collision damage, fire, or theft. It’s more a case of someone fitting a distribution hitch to a trailer that was not meant for it, and the liability should rest with them.
My understanding is that many caravan manufacturers will not guarantee the chassis if a weight distribution hitch is used.
Also I think the WDH makers recommend removing the WDH before driving over any rough roads. Yeh right.
If you draw your force diagrams you will find that without a WDH the forces on the a-frame part near the tow ball are actually quite small and thin section steel is all that is needed. However the WDH will put relatively huge bending forces on those same parts. If the frame is not designed specifically to handle a WDH then we have a problem.
cue a free-body diagram.
Don't know of any van makers voiding anything if a WDH setup is used.
Also know of many car makers who want them used.
WDH makers I know of recommend removal for rough roads, reversing or spoon drain type situations.
@@David-ic8mm regardless, no point using one if you had to drive the Warrego, Gore or Newell highways, they are way too rough to have wdh units fitted. Best option for anti bounce is a suspension hitch and get a better combination, one that does not need a wdh unit to put weight back on the front end of the tug to make it stable.
I am sure that any number of competent chassis people could repair this to a good standard and for a far better price. A lot of fabricators for extreme 4x4 vehicles have a great deal of experience in the repair and proper reinforcement of very similar chassis. As a layman it looks like part of the issue is the awful geometry of the hitch system putting huge forces through a chassis that was never intended to carry them.
Too rigid springs in the tow vehicle.......
more bounce to the ounce and more slam to the gram?
The truck's springs bounce up violently because it is lighlty laden in comparison to a laden truck...
and the drawbar of the van get's slammed up and down....
with the van chassis cracking at the point where the forces meet..
and where it flexes...
The worst things for towball weight are the extremely common fold out campers. They don’t weight much, but the old “10% of the weight on the ball” equation goes right out the window as the axles on them are way to the rear of the camper. This means that you can have something like a 1600kg camper with well above 200kg+ on the towball. I’ve seen one that weighed only 1400kg, but the ball weight was around 250kg. This can’t be good for the chassis.
So technically the insurance company is correct. It is wear and tear, from a tow hitch being incorrectly used. So that would be operater error.
Pretty well mate use to see cracked A frames on trailers and caravans when being towed by trucks particularly with drovers and farmers that would pull them around the country side.
the hitch is redundant when towing with a truck. i would be concerned with the extra jarring on the A frame due to the stiffness of the trucks rear suspension.
The problem with all pig trailers is the material used and the design. Most trailers have A frame welded to the chassis. First problem is flex and the second is the welding. 25 years ago I had a customer with a A frame that cracked all the time. He was fed up and wanted a cure. I use 5” C section not shitty RHS. Instead of making a A frame I take 2 pieces of C section and bend the ends to form the A frame and then box section the coupling attachment point. Running across the chassis I use C section again. On the bends for the A frame I fish plate . A rigid chassis that resist bending and will not crack. The cracking is due to flexing of the trailer , the suspension should be doing all the work not the chassis . To cap it all off I use shock absorbers on the axle to dampen the effects of corrugating. The trailer to date has never developed a single crack on either parent material or the welds. 3 years ago it was shot blasted , inspected and repaired without a single repair having to be done, The only reason I can think why trailer/ caravan builder don’t use C channel is cost and a slight weight disadvantage.
Stripping the van down to the bare bones sounds very much like a piss take.
Many years ago, I had an old car that started to rust through on the cills. The repair was almost exactly the same as you described, cut out the damage, and weld in decent replacement steel. Passed its follow-up inspection no problem and carried on for a good while afterwards.
Hello John, well analysed and described, you are right, every action has an opposite and equal reaction (thank you Mr Newton) but I think a major problem here is that the frame would be Galvanised which, in it self, poses a further problem to the cut, shut and reweld and brace option as you mentioned, we all know that lateral welding a tube at or near a stress point is fraught with danger. Welding Galvanised steel is not that easy and should be done properly, I wonder if regalvanising the whole frame was part of the original quote. regards Jim
I worked for a company that built the frames for RVs in the states, and the designers from our company told me the companies that build the trailers design them to reduce weight, so the material used for the frame, most generally is half the thickness it needs to be, also we fixed a frame that collapsed and didn't have to take it apart to do it. It was also an aluminum frame,
Chinese steel?
So correct me if I'm wrong, John. The levelling hitch shifts the lower apex of the fulcrum to a structurally inferior position on the chassis of the towed 'thing' resulting in the catastrophic loss etc..
It kinda sounds like the levelling hitch people should (if not already) explain to prospective buyers the inherent risk of transferring their towball weight to an area that may have not been designed to tolerate such forces.
Goodness me… too many “politically correct words” . You should of asked…John, looks like the the levellers fucked the chassis, am I right?
@robmotown1 Hmmm, confusing a satirical comment with political correctness is a long stretch. The next comment I make, I'll post a translation with 2 syllable words or less just for you champ.
@@k-strom8752 That would be great….Boss. Thank you for correcting my confusion with more of dem big words!
Take it to Alko chassis repair centre in Campbellfield Victoria, I have seen them fix the same failure on a chassis, they can easily fix the problem exactly how John described.
John’s explanation is 100% correct.
'and I get new cars, cheap'...i liked the gentle tap tap of the hammer yesterday....Love the show and learning so much. Thank you 👍👍
I repair trailers. Sometimes it is very difficult or impossible to weld when the structure on top is in the way. Beyond that obstacle repairing a trailer chassis isn't very difficult.
hard to weld a steel chassis that has a timber or polycarbonate floor attached to it.
Curtis, from cutting edge engineering, could knock up an excellent repair in 2 days I think.
You misspelled 'hours'.
I'm really curious about the configuration of that Hino, as it must be quite heavily loaded to need a weight distribution hitch at all. The only thing I could imagine making that type of truck unsuited to towing would be combining a very short wheelbase with a long frame, where the hitch swings around far back from the drive axle.
i was thinking the same
As an American I was not familiar with a Hino. Looked them up and they don’t look like a caravan tow vehicle, more like what we call a Box Truck that would have a tow pindle rather than a tow ball.
I would think that on the balance of probability the weight distribution hitch had no effect on the failure of cracking the A-frame and chassis if used correctly.
100X50 rectangular section seems very small for this size and weight of the caravan. Likely higher carbon steel than you suggest.
The rigidity of suspension of a small truck, the quickness to react to a bump, will cause the A-frame to bend in effort to change the caravan pitch.
I do not see the need for a small truck to use a weight distribution hitch. I do see the need to have a dampened hitch on a small truck.
Bad welding, heat zones, insufficient overlap and weld length, small section, type of steel and being dragged by a truck to be more probable causes for this cracking.
"Likely a higher carbon steel than you suggest" - rubbish. Using high(er)-carbon steel here would be a poor design choice.
How can you even comment on the adequacy of the section size without knowing the dimensions and wall thickness, and other mechanical properties, and modelling the loads? (They're called 'facts'.)
@@AutoExpertJC Higher carbon steel is often used for weight reduction, strength and rigidity. Could be a poor design choice.
@@johnstevens8601 tensile steel is not a good choice for this. On the other hand heavy trucks have high tense steel chassis.
There's no way they would spend money on anything more than bum grade steel.
Same reason it's so dang small. The steel, I mean.
That is a simple fix john is right on that and he's also right on the hitch with a hino truck it's a wonder you need that hitch
50k to get that fixed is a joke they r ripping you off
Got a local engineer who has already done this many times - for a hell of a lot less than $50k too... It's a recurring theme of underbuilding these trailers and chassis to keep the manufacturing costs down, but without the normal fish plating etc. to spread point loads over a decent length so many trailers and vans are just built with a hinge and a hard point, factory supplied failure points are not a sales gimmick that impresses me much.
Have done hundreds of these chassis repairs on trailers.
Done the cut out or the road side repair and plate which last year's.
Should be less than the GST of the quote.
Happy to help if "Not happy Jan" needs it.
John, you are right on. I am also an engineer and understood it all. However, for those who are not drawings on your chart pack would have been helpful.
You know it is going to be an interesting trip when you lower the hitch on the ball and you see the hitch flex against the welds on the A-frame. So how many stress cycles can mild steel take before cracks show up?
A good reason to also bolt the hitch to the frame of the tow vehicle. Both my tow vehicles have bolted on hitches. Just check for tightness once a year while on a hoist changing oil or whatever.
@AutoExpertJohnCadogan You're really great at explaining somewhat technical engineering and physics concepts in an understandable, unique and humourous way! Please consider writing a book, regards from Scotland.
Be interested to know if D has a 50mm ball coupling on the trailer. If the tow vehicle has a GVM of 5000kg or over, the rating of the 50mm ball coupling is reduced.
Formula is 50mm ball rating = GVM * 10,000,000 / (4903 * GVM - 10,000,000).
There's a handy chart available through the NHVR.
Similarly the hitch receiver rating is reduced. Formula identical but 10 million becomes 3.25 million.
Check out the VSG-16
(Vehicle standards guide)
this is really good and essential information Matthew,
- logic would then follow that the drawbar rating of the towed unit be reduced accordingly
- vertically compliant hitches would address this (alt least from an engineering / physics perspectve, duno about the legal side of things)
100% on the money, was just about to post exactly that about the de-rate of coupling parts when used behind a truck, from memory it works out that a 3.5t hitch de-rates to just on 2.5t, pretty much because the rear overhang adds a whip over sharp bumps like potholes etc and where the energy can go into the tow vehicles suspension behind a 4wd and soften the thump, truck suspension is a LOT more solid, so the drawbar and coupling cop a lot more load
@@johnallen3555 the tow bar is not affected by this calculation. The ADR regulation applies to the 50mm ball and socket items only. My truck has a tow bar with a 6.8t rating. It is unaffected by the ruling regarding the 50mm balls and couplings.
As an American, I looked up what a Hino truck is… I wouldn’t even bother using a WD hitch behind something like that. I use one behind my F350 because my 33ft TT gets the old wind wag (more for the sway control), but the Hino trucks look big as hell.
There's absolutely no reason why this couldn't be repaired from the underside. It's a bitch of a job, working overhead, but it can be done. I had a whole drawbar refabricated for a 4.5 tonne ATM pig trailer; because the original had started cracking at the junction near the chassis. This cost about $2.5k. This is a common problem for commercial pig trailers because of their high mileage (this one probably has covered north of 500k km). Having said that, you want to be careful designing the repair and avoid welding to the top and bottom of the RHS, to avoid introducing notch discontinuities and HAZ on the parts that see the highest bending stresses. Usually loads are transferred by gussets to the sides of the hollow section, closer to the neutral axis. I wouldn't be surprised if bad design of the drawbar was an originating cause. I'd like to see some more photos showing exactly where the crack propagated from. I bet it was the toe of a weld or a weld dag on the bottom chord of the section.
I agee . To many A frame {Drawbar} to chassis conections are done the wrong way from the begining . cross welding should be avoided .
I'm a boilermaker and I'd love to be paid $50,000 to fix this van.. be the best days work ever.
But seriously, if the A frame is like many vans I've seen, welded below the box chassis, be a reasonably simple job to slice off the entire A frame, make a new one and weld it on.
About that $50K quote for repairs, could it be that someone is preying on a widow? I unfortunately know that there are some shops in the US that would take that job, repair the chassis as John suggested, and send it out with the bill SAYING they disassembled the whole thing. Maybe Aussie shops are more above board.
Most caravans have a disclaimer in their warranty book that they are not made to be towed with trucks or commercial vehicles. This appears to be due to the hard ride on stiffer suspension.
The next issue is the repairer with that absurd quote is leaving themselves open to a huge problem in the future. If you undertake repairs for insurance, you take on a lifetime warranty. Most customers assume this is for the entire van and all its issues. If have a torn chassis come in, it gets written off.
Privately with a disclaimer on the invoice i have repaired several for customers i know with great results.
Always with 5mm steel, carried back to the spring mounts so the flex between end of drawbar and suspension that hapens with short finished ones dissapears. The average drawbar is 2.7mm on most( minimum standard) but many are coming through at 2mm max and 1.2mm elsewhere on the chassis, which is way too light.
My repaired ones are regularly through my workshop and none have failed when done like this.
Finally all weight distribution hitches have instructions to remove when travelling through washouts, rough tracks, also not to do tight u turns, mini roundabouts (right hand turn 3/4 around those pissy little ones) with bar in place for the stress reasons discussed. They help removed for reverse parking into a tight spot also vecause they want to straighten out to equalise the pressures on chains. I set them up for customers and explain what they can and cant do, we look for a slight rear down position, with the front wheel arch back to unladen height to keep the download on tyres close to what it was to prevent steering getting overly light and not gripping the road. In test driving they perform well and brake in a straight line when set up well and used as instructed, not just 5 chains caus Bob said so.
Done badly they are a dangerous item as they make everything behave terribly.
They are not meant to be a fix for overloading or poor vehicle choice.
Hi John, if you tried to contact me, could you send link again. I was away, and it has now dissapered from my notifications.
Kedron and the like, they specify a suspension hitch must be used with their vans on US Pickups and Isuzu type trucks in particular, they are thge only things can tow their larger vans at all. If only people bought appropriate combinations, we would never need WDHs at all.
Hino. Very good idea.
But you also need to know that they are super rough on the caravan compared to a car.
Also, 40k to repair cracks 600mm back on an a frame!? Trailer frames aren't that extravagant! You are covering this but I've had "A" frames repaired, they literally replace the steel. Better to go to another repairer.
My parents have timeshare at an ex caravan park that leaned into units, was big in the 80s, and all the vans were rotton by the mid 2000s and fell apart when attempting to tow away. I see this happening again.
Yeah. Just pull any wire routing from the section, jack it up to level, weld the crack to start then insert either a smaller dimension channel or some plate with welds. It's only difficult around bolts and cross members.
The difference between the truck suspension and the van behavior on the road is dramatic the truck has short travel stiff suspension designed to Handel heavy load and not very conducent or compliment to taking shock out of road irregularities delivered to van a frame chassis it hasent got much to do with the load distribution hitch being the culprit most trucks use a pintle hook and tow a van or trailer that has heavy duty chassis and a frame to avoid stress cracking I have found that the load distribution system regains the supple part of the rear suspension very much needed for better ride and control and stress reduction and have used the system for a very long time with great results
Absolutely, many truck manufacturers refuse to warrant their chassis if you use a WDH and do not use a Suspension/shock hitch, Isuzu is one such case. In fact Kedron Vans will not warrant their vans when towed by trucks if you do not use an Airsafe hitch. A Hino truck should not need a WDH for a 2.8t van in any case, sounds like her hubby was conned by a salesman or listened to too much campfire BS. I will not use a WDH on my 3.2t van behind my 2500HD Chev, I do however have a GenY 4.5t Boss hitch and the difference in ride for the van especially is phenomenal. I would suggest that her breakage is as a direct result of using the WDH on a truck with stiff suspension, exactly what some manufacturers have warned about.
I would suggest anyone towing a van with a truck look at using a suspension hitch such as a GenY or Airsafe.
The "boiler maker" described repair on the draw bar would be all that is needed to create a full repair. With very easily upgraded strength outcome.
The disassembly of the whole caravan is very doubtfully needed to fix a draw bar issue.
Possibly the only issue is if the chassis draw bar was galvanized, the internal surfaces may be subject to accelerated corrosion due to the burning off of the gal coating on the inside of the tube, especially if the tube is open at the ends.
Having built a number of car and plant trailers, I suspect that such a repair should be done for under $3k with welding with reinforcement plates designed to minimise stress concentrations in the tensile load areas and three good coats of paint to the exterior and two flood coats to the interior. If the fish plates are to be designed in to be on the inside of the tube (yes it can be structurally done) with all the welding plug welded and ground flush to minimise the visual impact of the repair, then add about another $1k. All guesstimates without seeing the damage.
There is a warranty aspect to the repair of the draw bar with taking apart the caravan, if there is any warranty left on the 2017 van. Just fixing the draw bar removes all the issues with the gremlins that get into the caravan interior when it is pulled apart.
In regard to the insurance policy, they generally only cover Accident, Fire and Theft. They do not cover structural damage or breakdowns of any sort that did not originate from an accident or theft. The insurance companies do not cover catastrophic collapse. Poor design or abuse is not covered. As you stated the trailer was not designed to take the weight distribution hitches.
The R&D, that you speak of, has failed to account for this problematic loading. The argument would be whether the manufacturer should have allowed for weight distribution Hitch loading. This is a very similar problem of the crew cabs breaking their back, something that you have highlighted. These can be successfully welded with the cab on.
The only disadvantage is that with the welded fish plates on the draw bar, it will be obvious that a repair was carried out and this may affect the resale value of the trailer. but at $50k cheaper in value there is no question that financially she (Dee) would be better off having the draw bar repaired.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge about impact of weight distribution hitches in how they transfer loading.
Very well explained and easy to comprehend.
You're welcome, Darryl.
That failure would of still happened without the wdh as the trucks stiff suspension destroys A frames. Mate lost his 3T boat into scrub this way. Why the wdh in the first place too?
I like listening to your funny, witty and sometimes helpful commentary. Thanks
Based on what one might find underneath the rear of a particularly worldly Territory, D is very fortunate that she applied this particular van and weight distribution kit to a truck.
why
Similar to a chassis extension with plates all round, especially on the taller surfaces, would be the way to go. I'm a retired metal fabricator (boilermaker) and I could fix that and it would be stronger than original, for a fraction of the $50k.
John. I sent this to a mate that fixes Noddy owner boat trailers.. ie. Big boat, cheap trailer..
He said it can be fixed by just grabbing some Decent u channel steel. Approximately 3 feet long.. and welding it on. Thus creating a stronger subframe.. Dismantling the van is bs..
And he also said owner should contact manufacturer..
I think a lot of people think they are anti- sway devices. I had no idea how they work until watching a previous video of yours. I have a small gooseneck van so have no experience with them.
When using a weight distribution hitch, it is important to not use bars with a weight rating far exceeding the tongue weight of the caravan. As you point out, if you traverse a dip, the junction between the caravan and the tow vehicle is going to make a V. If the bars are for a much higher tongue weight, they will exert much greater forces on the tongue of the caravan. Unfortunately, many people think that a little overkill is better and buy bars with too high of a tongue weight rating.
Hayman Reese instructs that the WDH must be disconnected before crossing spoon drains etc. How many do this? I maintain that if needed then the tow vehicle is too small or the caravan too big. Don’t forget it also adds 30kg to combination that is probably overweight already
Spot on John, best thing I ever did was to remove the weight distribution hitch from my Jeep Grand Cherokee and our 20’ Caravan, ride was improved as well as doing tight turns, I felt that with the hitch on the Caravan was controlling the car, not the other way around. I now have a perfectly level set up by simply adding air bags to the inside of the rear coils, works a treat..the ride is now smooth and fuss free, we hardly notice the Caravan on the back, over 18,000 km and no issues. Weight Distribution Hitch’s are rubbish and should be banned in my option..
That wasn't what he was saying. There are use-cases for a WDH if you are willing to put in the work/expense to get it there. ie. you need an engineer to assess the vehicle and the van as a entire combination. .
"We hardly notice the caravan.." is a bit concerning too...
And with your airbags, you now risk buckling the car’s chassis. Plenty of examples online with a simple Google search
@@craigenglish7046 the GC uses coil springs in the rear. Adding airbags to coil springs does not change the point at which the load is applied to the chassis or any other suspension components. This is perfectly safe and reliable.
You have confused this with adding airbags to a leaf spring setup - which is very different and will load the chassis at points that were never intended to be loaded..... Hence the many reported chassis failures on utes with airbags added.
The classic Jonhn saying...the dog wagging the tail😂
I've only just come across this, so I'm presuming its been long resolved.
Many many things to consider here.
1). Why on earth was a weight distribution hitch being utilised on a truck, as its not able to achieve what its designed to do, share distribution over axles, it's unable to compress the front spring rate and lift a truck tray load.
2). The caravan chassis is always the weak point in relation to a truck chassis, always. They break irrespective of a weight distribution hitch being utilised, and as I said, shouldn't have been utilised.
Required suspended tow bar instead.
3). The repairer is correct in his presumption the caravan requires total assessment.
Yes John, the drawbar is the issue but as you said there has now been chassis flex, that flex has translated throughout the construction integrity of the entire van chassis & body frame.
A simple "A" frame & chassis repair does not address structure integrity of the vans body frame.
Also John, how do you do a comprehensive "But" weld when the top chassis tube is inaccessible by the van flooring and furniture.
4). The repairer has to warrant his work for the vans Lifetime under insurance repair, doing a "A" frame repair would get the van back on the road, but the cupboards falling out as the bodies frame is flexing would fall back on the repairer, hence his covering his but in the assesment. Correct in his thougher assessment.
5). Weight distribution set up correctly is an absolute necessity in my opinion.
There is simply no other alternative to lifting a sagging arse, getting headlight beam back in range and having weight over steering axle, the primary braking axle, as the front axle does 60+% of a vehicles braking.
Weight distribution does exactly as it aludes to, distrbutes ball weight ovef all axles evenly, front, rear & van axle/s.
6). Not addressed by John, but always aluded to as an answer to sagging bum. No, air bags in the rear aren't the answer, they just lift the rear, they don't distribute weight to front steer or braking axle nor do they re-align headlight beam.
I would have thought a WD hitch would not be required on a tow vehicle with heavy duty suspension such as a Hino Trade ace. The heavy duty suspension in comparison to an SUV or ute should be able to carry the tow ball load sufficiently on its own. WD hitches put additional load on the A frame, the harsher suspension ride of the truck would exagerate those loads through the A frame. So I would suggest the combination of a WD hitch and HD suspension pack are no good for each other in this case.
My experience says it's because of the truck. I have seen caravans not much heavier then that snap solid steel tongues and 70mm balls because of the jarring ride and can only imagine the fatigue caused to the A frame.
Also used a hint with an air glide towbar pulling the same trailers with zero failures using a standard ball and tongue.
I just purchased a new aluminium trailer 16' x 7' x 7' cargo trailer, towed it home empty in 30 mph winds. Not a good trip. The primary problem was sway. Short term solution was to buy 200# of concrete mix and through it in the front, of the axles, 80% solution. Purchased and Anderson Hitch primarily because I get anti sway and load distribution. Super happy with the outcome but, because stress into the a frame is real will be checking with the manufacturer. I will has a matter of good form load the trailer wisely and observe the good protocols for load on the tongue of truck, 2023 F150 with the big tow package. I do routinely tow loads greater than the weight of the truck, 7,000# load and trailer behind the F150, while done right sag is minimal the Andersen brings the truck back up about an inch, the anti sway appears to be highly effective, I do have to turn of the antisway built into the truck dynamic vehicle control. Life with the device is far superior to with out, even when it appears I could get away without it. Your point is well taken and thank you again for being the educator you are.
Thanks for the video. I was considering a weight distributor but you’ve adjusted my thinking. I’ve naively been assuming that the trailer manufacturer would have designed for this.
It must be nice to live in a country that has a full range of Japanese light commercial trucks. We have Hino here in USA, but we have about 2 choices, 155 and 195, with a choice of Aisin 6 speed auto, or an Isuzu NPR with the same transmission.
We have them in abundance. Many people buy them for touring/overlanding and some use them as a daily driver for work over a landcruiser because of the cost.
Putting adjustable Koni rear shocks with a higher extension rate on a light truck reduces the bucking force/acceleration of the tow bar. It also improves the ride considerably.
They welded across the rail? I thought that was a no no?
along top sides ok , across top will fail
There used to be a warning, don’t know about now, in Nissan user handbooks, against using weight distribution systems.
The repairer must be of the same type of breed as one who did a insurance quote on my old shed when the next door neighbours tree decided to fall on the corner of it and denting a few sheets.
3 pieces of colourbond trimdeck sheeting 4meters long, 2 meters of guttering and flashing..... $11500
the whole shed kit was 10K 2 years earlier
The simplest way to fix said caravan would be to unbolt the body from the chassis, roll the old chassis out from underneath, and roll a new one in. That quote is her being absolutely taken to the cleaners. All they've done is looked up the replacement cost of the van, quoted somewhere around half that, and know that they can likely buy a new chassis from the manufacturer for under $10k and spend a maximum two days (so another couple of thousand in hourly rates) swapping it out.
Floor and wall of my caravan is screwed, glued and nailed to chassis. Fun cutting out floor around a weld.
You might want to learn a little about caravan construction before commenting again. You obviously have no idea.
I'd be surprised if an insurance assessor didn't become involved if this goes to an ombudsman. Then watch what happens to the repair costs! :-D
Reminds me of certain BMW vehicles in the early seventies which were basically sedans designed for av1200cc motor but fitted with much more powerful BMW 1800 and 2000 engines. The front subframes all cracked up under stress. This could be fixed by expert welders repairing cracks and reiforcing as explained by JC. Engone had to pulled out and subframe removed to tje specilist workshop . Couple of hundred bucks - not cheap in seventies but definitely a lot less than 50 grand.
OMG, we may be twins separated at birth. I have hated distribution hitches since I was a curious kid and have hated the mobile mould boxes at least as long.
Back in the 80's we used to fit spring hitches to trucks and firmly sprung 4x4's to protect caravan and small trailer chassis front the shock loads imparted by the tow vehicle. It wasn't uncommon to see broken trailer chassis if they weren't used. Adding a WDH just aggravates the already bad situation. I'm no lover of insurance companies trying to get out of claims, but should they be liable for someone's decision to install exactly the wrong equipment for purpose to both tow vehicle and towed equipment? This failure is exactly the same as we were seeing 40 years ago when vans were built better, but 40 years ago we had a solution. I don't understand why people haven't learnt anything.... sorry, I forgot about the $50k
It sounds more like a problem of modern shit vehicles. My father towed a 25 foot airstream trailer with his 1979 Dodge Maxi van for over 20 years with a Reese hitch ,never had a cracked frame put over 250,000 miles on it ( that's like 200 billion km).
I'm not an expert in this matter and never intend on becoming one. That said though, a lot of caravaners fail to remove the hitches when traversing rough terrain. When I say, "rough terrain", I mean going over speed humps or transitioning from a steep driveway or boat ramp to a level surface or traversing culverts etc.
These are all pretty normal circumstances to encounter when towing, but it is at these times when the highest loads are placed upon the trailer chassis, more so than under braking and may make demands of the trailer chassis that are beyond its specification.
It's my understanding that this is fairly widely known in the boating community. From my observations of watching people come and go from our local caravan park, on a daily basis, it appears to not be that well understood in the caravan community.
I hope this helps someone understand the limitations a little better.
Problem is easy to fix. Buy a smaller trailer or buy a bigger tow tug. Not that hard for people to do.
@@rossatkinson3160 Definitely, the most sensible option, by far.
Any idea why that tow vehicle would have any use for a WDH?
I 100% agree that a much more simple and cost effective repair could be done. Maybe then the insurance will come to the party.
Great video, I often tow my little trailer behind my Rav 4 overloaded with rubbish to the landfall, yes a disaster about to happen. I always load the trailer so that the downward load on the tow ball is not heavy and drive slowly. If we load a caravan to get the correct down ward load on the tow ball, we should not need any tow bar springs. Most caravan towers have no idea what there tow ball downward weight is. I do own a 4ton motorhome so l am not anti caravans, but most caravans on the road are a disaster about to happen.
Absolutely agree with the first comment. Towing a caravan with a heavy commercial vehicle of any make with ridged heavy suspension would distroy most trailers and caravans in a flash. Commercial trailers for towing say a small excavator or roller are built much heavier especially in the draw bar to handle the constant sheer forces of the pounding from the heavy springing. Unless it was a well build off road caravan and even with a sprung towbar it's destined for failure w.d. hitch or not.
Yet every circus in the country (the real circus) are dragging around a fleet of god knows how old vans with ridgid trucks dating from the 1970's, '80's and if they are lucky the '90's.. you telling me every town they roll into, they are replacing the A frames on their vans! 🤣🤣🤣🤣
NO! The mild steel we are getting here today is crap to start with, low quality, manufacturing using the absolute minimum grade materials, cheaply done and that is even if they are still made in this country to begin with! Alot are not, just gal dipped here when unloaded from the boat. maximum profits extracted is whats causing this to occur more often. And caravan companies hiding behind disclaimers in fine print of any crappy issues.
Had a caravan from the 1980s it was just half a box frame with and axel, some 50x50 angle in a square with ply board on top, held together with a few screws then a bolsar wood frame with aluminium stapled around it! Take the windows and door out, remove the chipboard cupboards and leaning on it would fold in half.. amazed at the prices people pay for these things!
Removing the body sounds extreme and conservative, but the a frame looks parallel to the chassis rails. I’ve replaced a frames without hoisting, but if it’s cracked the rails, welding the top of the tube is nigh on impossible. Never judge the required repairs until you see it.
Well done mate! I own a hitch shop and hate them things so bad!
Why not just apply a 50% correction. So your rear axle will dip a little, but the load is drastically reduced on the A frame. Also a significant improvement in driving performance.
Weight distribution hitch asside, from those photos there's perhaps an argument to be made for a manufacturing defect as well.
Welding across a drawbar is a clear rookie mistake. Anyone with any kind of trade involving the occasional use of a welder should know that.
As you said, weld something and you get a heat affected zone. You weaken the material at the point right next to the weld and increase the stress at that same point as it will often be thinnier in cross section (compared to the weld bead) etc.
Putting that HAZ amd stress riser right across the part of the RHS experiencing the highest loads is just plain dumb.
Another minor contributing factor may also be the tow vehicle itself.
If the back of that little truck has virtually no load in it, the stiffness of the suspension in the rear will also work to increase the loads imposed on the drawbar.
Either way, the repair cost given was clearly a "we don't want this job" price.
Very limited photos, but from the description it should just be a matter of pulling it straight and welding the chassis, welding a couple of nice diamond plates to the side and building a new drawbar. A few hundred dollars in materials, maybe a days labour. Tops a couple of grand.
Personaly once fixed I would be lookign at getting something other than a tow ball to affix or attach the trailer to the truck for better load distribution without using the usless load distribution add on.
In Uk and Europe all tow bars have type approval from the car manufacturer. Weight distribution hitches are not technically legal except for cars made before 1998 when the type approval laws came in to force.
To achieve max towing ability specified by Ford an approved load levelling kit must be fitted on my model . This applies when towing anything over 1800kgs for my vehicle . Warning stickers were on the genuine towbar . I found this at one point when I was considering a used ute . I ended up with an ex-demo .
Brilliant explanation on WD hitches, finally learning how they apply torque makes so much sense.
doing this is a fine idea, just poorly executed. torque is force x distance, so longer spring arms would reduce the force applied to the trailer(caravan) frame. only issue is packaging such a device.
then onto the repair, completely absurd quote. simple fab/welding, maybe some doubler plates.. shouldn't cost anywhere near that much.
Sounds like profit maximisation to me.
Its not as if that frame is made of heat treated steel. A competent fabrication shop could replace the affected area better than new.
The only question is the legality - Australia seems to be completely over the top with regulation.
Actually and very unusually, I side with the insurance company. Neither the vehicle nor the van were designed to withstand the loads imposed. Also fatigue cracking is indeed wear & tear, just on a molecular level.
Towed a medium sized van for over 12 months around Australia. Set the suspension up correctly before the trip making a weight distribution hitch unnecessary Always hated the things anyway,.
You've watched Johns previous videos? If you're "setting up" the suspension with heavier springs then it's heavier than designed for.
@@Low760 The springs are shocks were 10 years old before I started the trip. Replacements were needed. They were of a heavier duty than the under spring stock leaves. John's information is not suited to every vehicle.
Weight distribution hitches are the best way to bust your chariot on an undulating Shitsville back road 😅
Just takes the wrong spoon drain - job done!
@@AutoExpertJC didn't you do a video all about how they work and why you should use them?
@@AutoExpertJC Plenty of them - all the way to Shitsville and back!
I can think of one actual use for a WDH. FWD vehicle with limited traction. The WDH will transfer weight to the drive axle. Which basically indicates that you're trying to tow more than the vehicle wants to have hitched to it. The real problem with WDHs causing frame damage is that the springs are waaaay too stiff.
I've never used a WDH.
There's a reason why we have 5th wheel and gooseneck hitches---.
John do weight distribution hitches put weight back onto van axles from the rear axle of the tow vehicle?
Yes, some weight is also put back onto the wheels, often this will overload the axles of the van. Hence forth making the rig illegal and non compliant.
Just a quick question. Could the fact that the suspension on the truck is to hard and all the bumps are being transferred and doubled through the weaker chassis and draw bar on the caravan. I know people using the Ram and Silverado USA truck style ute are having this problem and are putting (Not sure of the correct name) but they are tow hitches with springs or air bag system in them. Could this harshness between truck and van course this problem
You need to educate the RV dealers because they have no idea of the dynamics of this style of hitch. I told them I didn't want one because I couldn't rational why you would put a vertical bending force of the RV frame to midgait sway. It would seem more rational to replace the side bars with long pull hydraulic shocks. The dealers comment to me was, well, this is the way we have always done it.
I used a weight dist hitch on an 84 Suburban with a 20 ft Wilderness trailer. Your problem is the trailer and tow vehicle are not well built and heavy duty. My father in law owned a welding shop and when the chassis broke he rewelded the chassis and welded on strengthening panels. No problem
My vehicle tow placard specifies to use a load leveling device if towing more than 1600kg. I’m extremely careful to only use it on the straight and level so to speak, no turning sharp, no driveways, spoon drains etc.
Truck manufacturers recommend you don't. Many van makers will not warrant a van when used on a truck unless you use an air shocker or GenY hitch, or similar. WDHs are all but forbidden.
@@rossatkinson3160 as I said- my vehicle manufacturer mandates them ! Air shockers - or airbag suspension, pumped up to level the vehicle removes weight the steer axle (bad!) and adds it to the rear axle, in some cases overlies rating ! (Also bad!) Don’t believe me? Do the studies for yourself- put scales under all wheels, pump the tow vehicle up level and look at the results. You cannot deny the laws of physics. Moment arm…
In my opinion Weight Distribution Hitches should be banned. Whenever I see them used they are being employed in a situation where the tow vehicle is towing something it really shouldnt be towing. For example a Ford Territory with a 22ft van on it, or a dual cab ute towing some 26ft monstrosity to Dingo Piss Ck. I have seen the hitch ripped out of the back of a vehicle on the road to Camerons Corner, and they were using a WDH.
Could not agree more. Hence why I upgraded the tow tug for my 3.15t Transparent Aluminium Shitoirre (hope I spelt that right, JC) to a Chev 2500HD pickup. Only issue is like the Isuzu trucks, they need a suspension hitch.