4WD snatch straps really suck: Here's why. | Auto Expert John Cadogan
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As you go through life you gather a list of amusing stories. This is one of them. Around mid '70s myself, brother, sister and a couple of friends were walking around a national park. We were on a pretty rough access track, clearly only suitable for high clearance vehicles. About 20 minutes in we came across a 4WD and a sedan. The sedan had bottomed out and wedged on some rocks and couldn't be moved. 4WDer had arrived and offered to help them out. They had tied onto a tow point on the front of the car, done the run-up style attempt and ripped the tow point straight out of the car, and were now in the process of packing up and heading off tail between legs in failure. My brother and friend, around 15 years old both I think, cast an eye over the situation and looked under the car. The muffler had caught on a rock, half torn out and wedged between two rocks. Key thing was, all the passengers were still in the car and seatbelts done up. The car driver's wife was a *big* woman, the sort of person that you wonder how did they get into that car in the first place. All passengers were asked to get out of the car. The suspension clearly gave a sigh of relief when the wife got out. That raised the car up enough that brother & co could get under the car, wire the muffler up so that it cleared the rocks and the man was able to simply drive clear. He was advised to stay up out of the ruts and passengers told to walk back. Wife didn't want to or couldn't do that so she got back into the car but they did make it back to the start of the track as they were there when we walked back out a couple of hours later. 4WDer and car driver bested by a pack of kids. Life's like that.
Some smart kids out there,and helpful.Brains beats brutes.Good story and good on you!
well, it's not that hard to outhink the average 4wdriving boofhead..
That was Russell coight doing the snatch.
@@garynew9637 Good one mate. 😊👍👍
Blokes: "We've tried brute force & optimism and now we're all out of ideas"
Kids: "What if we try to actually fix the problem?"
Spot on, and totally accurate. A snatch strap in the wrong hands is like a loaded gun. A few years ago, and after having purchased a new luxury SUV, we were 'gifted' a free module of a multi chapter training course with our new baby. Always willing to learn something new, we went to the mountainous terrain module which turned out to be very muddy that weekend. A young instructor gave us theoretical lecture and we then hit to the road. 10 minutes later we had a Defender lying at 45 degrees in a bog with water above window level on the low side. It was solid with four wheels spinning like mixers in the water. 'Ideal opportunity to demonstrate recovery' said the instructor and he gave us another theory lecture about how to calculate exactly how much slack one should include in the kinetic snatch. Anyway, he attached the shackle to some part of the Defenders front end under the water and the other end to the formal rear tow recovery point under a Discovery 4 out front. AS an engineer, I did the energy calculation in my head and grabbed my wife and took her 30 meters off and at right angles to the Defender! The Disco took off in a cloud of black smoke and there was a loud 'BANG', followed be a second one a second later. You guessed it. John's 'Projectile From Hell' together with a sort of nudge bar previously attached to the front of the Defender had flown forward at blistering speed (no-one reported even seeing it!) to smash into the top rail of the rear door of the Disco, breaking right through the metal, breaking both back window and glass sunroof. Thankfully, no-one was hurt. We got out a spade, dropped the water level a bit, moved a bit of ground from under the front diff and eased it out gently with a pull from an old Series II. We went home and did not sign up for any more courses.
Wasn't a Mountain Top Experience course was it?? Sounds like something they'd do.
@@simoncook8772 no. Land Rover Experience. Guy was clueless and dangerous.
The British Army banned the use of kinetic recovery ropes on soft skinned vehicles years ago. The KER ropes were originally developed to recover heavy military vehicles where a straight pull would be insufficient. Then the public got hold of them. There was a picture of a Range Rover on Salisbury Plain with a smashed windscreen where a shackle had completely come through the vehicle from the stuck one. It was recommended never to use metal shackles with a snatch strap and always a bridle on the stuck vehicle. If you had to use shackles then use a dead arrestor rope fastened to the strap as well. We didn't have soft shackles then, just used a bit of sacrificial rope. The bit about straps losing strength when wet was something that had never occurred to me.
I would have been 17 when I did my driving and recovery course in the army. They didn't teach me how to drive. They showed me how little I knew, and started from there. The lessons I learnt in those 3 or 4 weeks have kept me and mine safe on and off the hard top for the last 50 years.
Thanks for the enlightenment.
Regards Tony
Same here. As an AFV crewman I used to be in awe of how the recovery mechs got my bogged tank out (with a series of pulleys and snatch blocks). Then I see idiots whose sole qualification for off roading is a fat wallet, straddling live cables and I just winch. Whilst tempted to see who wins the Darwin award, I intervene only to get quizzical looks when I ask them if they have any idea where that cable, strap or whatever is going to go when it fails.
Me too. Did the full RACT drivers T109 course back in the 1981, then spent 20 years driving in remote Australia. Back when the GRR was actually a challenge. The good ole daze 😊
Wide Bay Training Area 1977.
A pissing wet afternoon in a hole hilariously watching an entire Tpt Sqn of Land rovers and Acco's sequentially bogging and attempting to recover themselves until they were all immobile in a 500M sea of churned mud, exhaustion and defeat.
Then the SHAME of having Tankies in tracks quickly pulling them out.
The simple life of a Grunt.
@@MicMc539 I'm sure my fellow black hats didn't charge you too many beers. :)
Such an important video - brilliant …
On the old man’s cattle station, we always gently towed vehicles and equipment out of situations due to the inherent risks involved.
It’s interesting because it’s something that has stayed with me for life from an 8 year old, so much so that we left someone stuck once because they became very aggressive that we should use their “Snatch-Strap” …
Chains ,cable just as dangerous. Should always put bag, blanket over top.
@@neilreid5not a fan of "winch sails" as they have to be repositioned to be effective, a winch wire should never get to the failure point as that is what a snatch block is for, the problem comes in the winch challenge events where everything is being done at speed, hence the big selling point of winch drum speed, rigging, operating, and putting away a snatch block takes longer, so it's the least favoured option, resulting in people overloading their systems, often having also allowed the wire to bunch and damage itself, thus dramatically reducing it's strength, once again being in too much of a hurry to do the job properly. Done a lot of off road winching/recovery , never had a KERR rope and never felt the need for one.
The Australian Army, which has a bunch of big heavy stuff that often needs to be recovered from very difficult situations, once upon a time had dedicated recovery mechanics. They spent a lot of time in training to understand the physics of recoveries and once they completed their training all they did was recoveries. It was a highly specialised discipline. The 4WD industry now promotes the idea that any idiot can safely recover a vehicle as long as they have the right equipment - a pretty dangerous idea.
Yeah, next they'll let people drive those truck things on the road, with no barriers between them or anything! Madness! You know, in some countries they still eat meat?
@@bigglyguy8429 Yeah, and you know, those big truck things require additional licence qualifications in this country before you can drive them out on the road with no barriers. Thank-you for further illustrating my point for me - it always warms the cockles of my heart when someone does that.
@@contributor7219 The Army has high standards though; reminds of my time as a motorcycle cop with the Military Police; Vic Pol traffic cops did their car driver training at the Pucka driver training ground and a few of their instructors tried out the Army motorcycle training circuit; none of them were able to successfully complete the circuit after several tries, with the senior instructor admitting that few of their motorcycle cops would qualify if they had to do the Army course..
@@contributor7219 By big trucks I meant the 4x4 itself, but thanks for making MY point - whoosh, over your head like a flying shackle!
@@petesmitt The Rigging code, in Australia comes straight from the Army engineer manual.
As a lad 70 years ago, in a timber area, we were warned about steel cables/ropes snapping, with shackles whipping around, scything everything in its path.
We carefully calculated the possible radius of the cable, doubled it and more, and kept our distance.
We were taught how to behave around chaffcutters, circular saws, rifles and snakes, as well as arsenic sheep dips. Staying well clear was the basic advice, as well as being alert and recognising the potential danger.
At school we were taught the basics of safety, walking as a pedestrian, etc. Safely riding in the back of a ute was another lesson, usually ignored.
Enjoyed the Chullora war stories, more please.
Thanks for another interesting video.
70 years ago common sense was common … not so much nowadays
Agree
Now days it's always someone else's fault when you fall over
Ambulance chasing lawyer scum
Bungee cords are a modern miracle when used correctly
Bit like fire !
Biggest issue with 4W driving is finding a nice spot to stay with the family that is free of pissed rock apes.
Thank you! I have always been an advocate of the gentle approach to 4WD recovery, even when using a snatch strap. It was good to note the tow ball reference as I have been using the tow ball and a rope or static strap for years. I have also used a snatch but only with minimal speed to the towing vehicle. I was unamused by another significant UA-camr who tested the tow ball failure issue… They had to chain the towed vehicle to a tree then back up the full length of the snatch strap with a powerful vehicle and when that didn’t snap the tow ball after a good number of tries, they cut half way through it to get it to fail!! Then they went on to say how dangerous it was to use a tow ball. Really! I'd much rather use the soft end of a snatch strap on a tow ball than a heavy shackle on a dodgy recovery point any day.
Rohny Dahl?
You have used a snatch strap with a tow ball? Even at minimum speed this is potential deadly. I would rethink that practice.
@@cjjoe2385 well, that was awkward…. You’ve (presumably) just watched an engineer who knows more about physics than you have brain cells explain to us, in 30 minutes that tow balls are the least likely thing break in a snatch recovery and YOU WANT US TO RETHINK THE PRACTICE! Which actual planet were you on during this video?
@@Renegade040 when John says they’re less likely to break than the strap then I’ll follow his advice not that of a youtube expert. He did predict that thousands of dickheads would comment on this. All I can say is bingo, he was right.
@Tee Anahera before you engage your mouth and try to prove people wrong, try engaging a couple of your limited brain cells.
I stated snatching off a tow ball even at low speed is potentially deadly. Please advise where this is incorrect. John also stated this in his video as do nearly every industry expert. As John said, which I already knew as I have done formal advance recovery training. This will put load on the receiver in ways it was never designed to experience. The ball may not snap however the receiver may do. Hence, my comments to never even do a light snatch recovery off a tow ball is accurate and very good advise.
Very sound advice Johnno !
Last time I got stuck and couldn’t be pulled out using traction, I used the force multiplier of the tangential pull.
This is where you tie your stuck vehicle to an immovable object, in my case a tree, and pull on the chain from about half way along at an angle of around 45 degrees.
Think of an archer pulling on a bow.
Works a treat, without the threat of a ‘slingshot-from-hell’.
Cheers.
I think this is a great idea and a visual or video would help explain this. @l2sfbc
Hard to do on the beach
4WD course I did years ago here in West Aussie suggested on a Beach, can bury the spare wheel at a 45 degree angle in the sand, and use that as an anchor point.....
@@bluddyrowdy8757 I have 8 max trax so that I never have to somehow get the spare from under the truck when it is centimetres off the sand (we are bogged remember) then dig a massive hole. I have watched this tested on a few youtube vids and it wasn’t always successful anyway.
@@teeanahera8949
yeah fair enough. Most have 2 spare wheels bolted to back of Cab or canopy - but You do You Mate....
I was surprised that there was no mention of the recommended “Dead Weight” bag placed over the centre of the stretched strap to reduce speed of flying objects in the event of strap failure. I was waiting for him to get to that. I would have liked an engineers point of view in the effectiveness of such concepts.
Me too. I would think you need one blanket thing at 1/4 and 3/4 of the way of the rope for a projectile to be slowed down until it reaches either side - if the rope ehm projectile from hell doesn't just rocket straight through anyways.
John, suggest having a chat to the team at Getabout Training Services about their Hierarchy of Recovery concept. A risk based approached to vehicle recovery and ranks kinetic recovery as the highest risk. Highly recommend people undertake accredited training, through either a commercial organisation or a 4WD club. A small investment compared to the risk to vehicle and people.
I've used a kinetic recovery rope a couple of times with great success. Both times we tied the recovery rope to the vehicles with multiple turns of paracord. We also threaded the rope through the spare wheel to catch the rope if it got loose. Nothing went wrong either time but we probably would have survived if it did.
In the army, here in Finland, we have sort of snatch straps to recover heavy equipment from swamp. It is like a thick tow cable but made of rubber and stuff. Once a huge field gun was sunk almost to the barrell, and with that rubber cable it slowly came out, as there is no way to "hurry swamp", it must be extracted slowly. Yes, the tow points in the military are big enough. I have a T-55 tank at my summer place(just for fun, everyone should have one...), and the tow points are huge. My Hummer H3 has cast, big burly tow hoops, they look really strong, but the area they are connected to is just Isuzu-looking truck frame end with smallish bolts. So you never know untill you take a closer look. Getting that through your rear window would be final. Luckily the pull trough those bolts is straight, so even a small-looking bolt can handle it if the frame end is strong enough. Here in Europe we have the working load as rating for lifting straps, and they have that 1/7 safety ratio (when new), just as lifting chains, but the danger with those is the ratio, as I have overheard many times "it is a 2 ton strap so it can easily take this 10 tons...". Same with chains. I have seen a chain with (originally of same lenght...) two chains from the big O having the other chain 5 cm longer than the other... I usually use the snatch strap when cutting difficult trees when it is windy by pulling the tree to the desired direction with a portable winch, so when the tree is cut to fall, the strap keeps pulling long enoug to ensure that the tree has no bad ideas. I think that the worst idea is to combine a truck winch with a snatch strap. But, always use the line damper , the one used with winch cable, also with the snatch strap. Those killed people would be still alive if they did.
A bow shackle has come for me in a kinetic recovery before. Very wary of them since. Recovery point (tie-down point?) ripped out of the stuck vehicle, 4.7T shackle penetrated the toolbox on the back of my vehicle, completely crushed a small steel toolbox inside the alloy one and almost pushed it through the other side of the big one. The 50m/s sounds about right!
Holy hell dude!! 😱
“You can check my maths if you went to high school and paid attention”. 😂. That one cracked me up.
Completely agree with most of what you said. Only thing is a tractive recovery is almost never going to work on a beach. If the recovery vehicle has to start from a stop with the slack taken up in a non elastic strap it will simply bog down immediately. On the type of soft sand someone is likely to be stuck in it can be hard enough to take off from a complete stop with nothing holding you back at all. If fact that is likely how the stuck vehicle got stuck in the first place.
The difference between soft sand and hard sand on a beach can be 2m away. Your argument is moot anyway, if the sand is too soft for a tow strap then it is too soft for a snatch recovery. You also didn’t listen to the whole 30min video, John clearly stated that you should first attempt to jack the car up and use maxx trax or whatever before towing/snatching.
@@teeanahera8949 your absolutely correct. Indeed I have never even owned a 4x4
Same as mud, normally happens if someone stops. Once you are moving again no problem. Nowhere to winch and not a solution to move any distance and get momentum up. Jacking and maxtrax a good first option but starting from stopped is liable to bog tow vehicle as well.
Seen 3 4x4 and light 4x4 truck all bogged as stopped and couldn't move again in mud. A lighter vehicle with a snatch pulled all out with l4 idle+ run up. Weight is enemy of 4x4 and only ran a hand winch as pointless to get further in and no good anchor points.
They snatch have their place IF used correctly.
I do agree with chassis anchor points, pulled a towbar off just towing a heavy trailer and broke recovery points after using chain trying to tow though mud and the sudden jerk after slackening off. (Only a little too, wet, sliding, limited visibility, ever see a tow under ideal conditions, we did leave vehicles behind too).
Chains can and will break as well especially if untrained or any jerk.
We weren't just playing either it was house access road, mud to top of bullbar blocking radiator, lumps of mud falling out locking up a front wheel, 200mm lumps of mud on the roof, a six inch lift and big tyres , fixed most problems.
Abs and traction control is a. catch too, especially on gravel or mud, after ex wife cleaned up fences or sideways a few times I suggested slowing down and particularly not using foot brakes at all, it scared the crap out of me first time I used brakes on slippery road and sent off in a random direction. Turn it off best option but too late when unknown slippery conditions.
If I may add a couple of points. Shackles were made in Australia by West Footscray Engineering and DID have a breaking strain of some 8:1 the stated WLL. DON'T expect imported Chinese product to have the same strength. On a certified test bed, they start to move at 2:1. The AS std states they should have a safety margin of 5:1. Lifting slings have 8:1, rated lifting chain 4:1 and wire robe 5:1. All lifting slings will commence to break at the stitching and all wire machine pressed at the ferrule. Back hooking or chocking effectively reduces the capacity by 20%. A wire cable tested on a test bed will break at 2:1 if it bares against an edge so don't allow any towing item to rub against the chassis or bull bar. A commercial shackle has NO guranteed W.L.L and rated shackles are easily distinguished as the pin is larger that the body dia.
Couple of points JC. Firstly the Australian snatch strap was conceived about the time of Jackaroo and Rodeo 4x4 4 cylinder adventure vehicles that weighed 60% of todays ranger or prado. So big upgrade required to round rope style of twice the capacity and length. That way, reducing the bottoming out for want of a better term.
Second point, use a bridle to lower stress, use dedicated straight pull receiver if not a bridle.
Weight is you biggest enemy! Reduce the stress as much as possible - get rid of the on looker idiots too close for safety!!
Good content JC👍
soft shackles are are better option as less mass going through the air if something goes wrong. Also, a gentle tug usually will do the job if you've cleared around the wheels.
Respectfully, I think you’ve missed the point. It’s not the shackle that’s likely to break, it’s the bit that the shackle is attached to that snaps off the rest of the vehicle.
If, using John’s example, the bow-shackle weighs 1kg, and the attached bit of vehicle weighs another 1kg, it becomes a 2kg, 180km/hr projectile. However, if you use a soft shackle of let’s say negligible mass, attached to a 1kg piece of vehicle, then you now have a 1kg projectile travelling at 255km/hr.
Both projectiles have the same energy - one is faster, the other heavier.
@@davidberry2542 good point, I agree. I watch an excellent American UA-cam show where they have a professional towing and recovery business, including recovering bogged vehicles (Matt’s Off Road Towing) and they used a snatch strap (rope). However they attach a bridle system to the bogged vehicle, where the bridle is attached to two points on the vehicle, and the snatch strap is attached so that it can move freely on the bridle. Given that setup, I would guess that the chances of the bridle tearing off the bogged vehicle would be significantly reduced, compared to having only one point of attachment?
@@davidberry2542 I use a fuse shackle which is designed to be the weakest link. It’s a soft shackle so no chunky bits of steel flying around if it fails. I still think the point on the danger of snatch straps is well made though.
@@horseman9582 I think you are right provided the angle of the triangular bridle is not too narrow, overstressing the strap. The chances are then that if the bridle is stronger than the attachment points and if the mounting on one side of the bridle lets go, the remaining mounting will likely arrest whatever snaps off. I think now if using a single connection that a strong safety line would be a wise move to restrain whatever might snap off. This all raises doubts also on the benefits of a mat at the midpoint of the recovery line to act as a parachute.
I absolutely agree about the schetchy snach straps. There is plenty of power, but very little control. Other methods are slower, but you have more opportunities to stop and readjust if the conditions change.
John: tractive effort = low effort... That's the point. If you're stuck it's probably because tractive effort wasn't enough. Tractive effort is limited by traction, and traction in places you get stuck is often low.
I have commissioned a few variable speed drives on the motor driving the flywheel of the eccentric presses that are used to forge tow balls.
Standing next to the steel bin of glowing ductile iron ingots, fresh from the furnace is a memorable event.
The place is dark, everything is covered in black soot and scale, it's like something out a creepy movie.
Anyhow, as you say, long before it breaks you are going to notice that you bent it.
And to bend it you have to be doing something very wrong.
And, never try to repair a forged item by welding on it.
That's step 1 of arranging your own death.
Congratulations John. I did a 4WD safety course with Nissan instructors when I worked for Nissan seven years ago. Your views are consistent with those of the very experienced instructors from Nissan. I hope you revisit this topic from time to time to help people new to 4WD recovery.
I learnt from the expert how to use a snatch strap - Russell Coight - Great Aussi Adventures. What could go wrong dude!
Interesting titbit along with that 7.7kj figure. 308 Winchester, eg. a powerful and very common hunting cartridge, with a typical 165gr hunting projectile is delivering about 2kj at 500m.
That's a pretty sobering thought in comparison.
Sage advice as always. I have always thought that dragging or winching a vehicle should be your last resort after getting the shovel and traction boards out.
Using a snatch strap appropriately is one of the greatest tools at your disposal. Soft shackles prevent the missiles coming back at you. Trick is slowly take up the strain, not have 3/4 length of strap run up.
Agree. My thoughts are have 100% synthetic, and strong points on the vehicle. That way it’s almost impossible to break anything dangerous.
Having said that. My preference is 1) use something like a bogout, and simply drive out using the power of the engine. Or 2) use a winch for a simple controlled recovery (on either the bogged vehicle or the recovery vehicle)
For those saying a winch is too expensive due to having to purchase a mounting point (usually a bull bar), plus a suspension upgrade. I say: how much is your life worth?
I think you are missing some key points of the video. The metal you have connected to could break and come off, still attached to the soft shackle. You would still have a metal projectile hurling towards the lead car. John’s example of 10km/hr is not a big 3/4 length run up. Even if you took up all slack, then slowly began to drive, the spring kinetic energy is being built up in a similar way.
I was taught to put a towel half way along the strap to prevent the strap projecting the full distance, the theory being the towel causes the strap to wrap around the towel and not extend the full distance?
@@alanwetton4950 yes, 100% to dampen any recoil including on winch ropes as well. Most recovery kits come with a bag which is also perfect for this
@@Leighau no I get the point. That is also the point of rated recovery points as well as a damper on the rope, normally the carry bag for that recovery kit you bought
When I was a kid, we called it a shangeye. Very fast, very accurate.
Love this vid mate…..also don’t forget to mention the old time favourite….the block and tackle. One of the most under rated pieces of equipment on my farm. I can pull anything out of anywhere with one.
Slow and steady. The opposite to this.
My tool of choice is the Tirfor, pull from any direction, and unlike a conventional winch leave it behind when you do not need it.
John: soft shackle plus good recovery point = no problem
I believe you missed an opportunity to discuss recovery blankets, are they an effective safety measure?
Also, on using chains - I have seen some shocking content online of chains failing violently during recoveries, causing serious injury. I don't think it's safe to assume that chains are a foolproof alternative.
I was an overhead crane operator in a steel furniture factory in Brisbane when I was 15. No ticket. The foreman showed me how to lift 6-metre packs of 10-50mm square tube off the back of semi-trailers and swing them into the shed. My other job was to cut all that steel to size on a big-arse wet saw. Great fun for a kid.
Good video. It's terrifying how complacent people are especially with snatch straps, just milling around within striking distance.
I think it is also important to add that when recovering it is heavily advised to use a winch/snatch blanket or any form or a recovery dampener. When recovering from towball, if it fails it becomes an unrestrained projectile that is not attached to anything and there is no way of attempting to alter the pojectiles directional motion towards the ground unlike using a bow or soft shackel with a recovery dampener over the rope.
Edit: changed to be more clear in mention that dampening blankets do not slow down an object, but aim to alter its trajectory towards the ground instead of straight at the other anchor points direction. Not all dampeners are made equal, and most do not do anywhere near an adequate job in trajectory alteration of the object/strap.
The main point about tow balls is that there is almost no way to reduce/convert is kinetic energy once it has sheared from the receiver resulting in a deadly projectile, unlike how you can attempt to with bow and soft shackels with the use of dampening blankets. While both are not the best option, one is better and potentially more idiot proof than the other (though I might be wrong about that).
I still agree with your points though, as no one (in a 4x4 capacity) really knows the true amount of force needed to recover any vehicle that is stuck and that you should exercise the most controlled and safest form of recovery first (dig, traction boards, winch, etc) with sntaching (kinetic) being the absolute last option and if possible never used due to its relatively unpredictable nature.
Anyway, great informative video as always.
Cheers.
One of the 4wd channels does a test on “blankets” over the strap and just in case you wondered how that can slow a missile at 180kph then wonder no more BECAUSE THEY DON’T. These blankets do next to zero to slow that missile down.
@@teeanahera8949 Yes, they do not slow down the object, and my wording was wrong as they aim to alter its trajectory, pointing it towards the ground instead of straight at the other anchor point.
Though, as seen in the testing, not all are made equal or do anywhere close to an adequate job apart from just acting as a bright visual warning. I think the ones that can impact this would be Ronny's, or Snatch's, off the top of my head, as they have a better way of securing them to the rope, keeping them attached, and the capability to weigh down the object.
I was unclear in my initial wording and will go back and add an edit note. Almost nothing apart from the equal opposite force will stop an object's motion. However, any small impact on its trajectory (towards the ground) can greatly affect projectile motion and potentially save someone from getting hit in the vital organs.
There are factory tow points on stock modern 4WDs. The term "tie down point" is a hangover/myth from a long time ago. No vehicles imported on ships or transported on flatbeds if broken down, are secured by these points as it can cause wheel bearing damage. The 4WD industry has preyed on the tie down point myth to sell coloured steel brackets for years. Excellent video.
How else do you secure it? And if they arnt used for that what else are they made for?
My LC 76 came fitted with shipping brackets and tow points. The shipping points are welded to the chassis, the tow points are bolted with all bolts in shear.
@@Tom-lf8hx Have a look at the next flatbed truck you see with a car on it. They are secured by straps over the tyres. This ensures that the wheel bearings don't get damaged which is what happens when the vehicle body is tied down instead
@@robwilson7654 That is odd. Maybe because the 76 is sold in many markets? I know that your rig will have been secured on the ship with wheel straps as this has been universal practice for a good while now
@@stolzhammer3239 yeah thats why i asked this guy what they were for? If they arnt tie down, recovery points, gotta be for something
Back in the 1980's I had a flat on a trailer with about a ton and a half of carrots in it, I pulled over onto the verge to change the wheel as the road was a bit narrow. When I came to drive off the trailer had sunk into the soft ground and despite being in low four wheel drive in a landrover it would not budge, the only thing I had with me was some 20mm dia polypropylene rope so I drove onto the hard with out the trailer and tied two strands of the rope to the trailer with the other end around the tow ball and slowly increased tension on the rope which just kept stretching. Then there was a bang and in the rear view mirror I saw something flying across the field, when I got out to look I found that the tow ball and half the hitch was missing, the two 16 mm pins that held the adjustable height tow hitch in place had sheard and the rope had acted like a ballista and launched the tow ball and the rear sliding half of the hitch into space< never found the hitch piece and had to drive back to the yard and collect a tractor to get the trailor off the verge. I have never used an adjustable height hitch since if needed I use a dropper plate.
I agree with your science and fact based information. I remove tree stumps and roots with a hand winch and apply your ideas. 4t slings from anchor tree, 1t hand winch, then 1t sling around target root. Use rolled paper 'sticks' inside reef knots to avoid heavy shackles. Weakest point is where you are looking towards, and 4t slings stretch much less than 1t slings, so keeps everything safe.
Tight snatch, hitching point, stretchy snatch, soft shackles, hard shackles, recovery, death. This four wheel driving caper sounds just like marriage.
Absolutely agree, been saying snatch recovery is the most dangerous style of recovery for awhile. But here in the states we have so many strap hero’s out here doing full send snatch recovery’s
Didn’t you hear the part when John urged us to stop using the apostrophe because words end in S? It was you he was talking about. *heroes, *recoveries see, easy.
@@teeanahera8949 your issue is with apple and their auto correct not me
@@matt.mckinzie if you spot an error provided by auto-correct the best course of action is to correct it before pressing send rather than blaming Apple.
It’s like relying on spell-checker rather than learning to spell in the first place.
@@jerrymyahzcat I just have more important things to do. Then to make sure every single word is spelled correctly for the internet cry babies is all.
I though a snatch strap was a G string.
😂
Even those can be dangerous!
No, that's a 'fan' belt. 😂😂😂
@@ozymandias7940 do t you mean fanny belt 🧐
@@tba3900I think he’s talking about an OnlyFans fan
I get the risk, and that’s why we do our best to spread the snatch load over multiple recovery points/bolts on each vehicle and dig out best you can to reduce the load. This isn’t new info to many… but we all have successful experience with snatch straps - particularly in sand. The recent-ish change is that we can now get out of bogged in sand on our own in so many instances using maxxtracks or similar without requiring a recovery vehicle. Before that, “give us a snatch” was the go to for sand because it works. And we were all warned about “be careful because there was this one time” stories of recoveries going wrong. It was the recovery tracks that changed my approach because they can be easier and safer and are a solo option on the beach.
John, snatch straps are not rated for load limits, they're rated for load. Reason is, you don't want a snatch strap rated too high or it doesn't stretch enough when you are yanking it, and acts too much like a fixed strap than a snatch strap. Most people shouldn't get the heaviest rated snatch strap unless they have a really heavy rig.
I think that’s his point man.
@@Thatguy-cb4qs he didn't say it
@@xpusostomos something something something olight.
My tree protector (used for protecting the trunk of trees when winching) has never been used for that in the 20 years I have owned it..and carried it in my 4wd.
It has done sterling work pulling out trees and bushes in gardens.
Friends/relatives ask me to carry out some "Nissan gardening"...
Beats digging and screwing up a good chain and bar on any chainsaw...
People can do anything "by mistake".
Most often by mistaking they have a clue.
Never considered the physics of it. I am now convinced not only never to use a snatch strap, but also to never even be in the vicinity of one being used.
I recently went to Fraser Island and watched a few recoveries at the famous Negala Rocks. A great lesson in what not to do with snatch straps in aweful condition. A snatch strap has a finite life even if properly looked after (kept out of the sun, sand washed out). It's life can be as low as 10 pulls. I use a kinetic rope which has a longer life and more play in it that allows much slower pulls. The monetary costis 4 times that of a snatch strap but a small price to pay for better safety.
Seem to remember a recent ad for a Mitsubishi Pajero Sport doing a heroic charge on a snatch strap to pull something out of a bog
Cheers all around
Snatch straps are fine - just not idiot proof. If in any doubt of the recovery point on either vehicle, just say NO. And offer a shovel or max trax.
Amen.
In the late 1970s and early 1980s I used to use reclaimed seat belts from the junkyard as tow straps. I remember reading that the nylon straps, including the buckles, had a rated strength of 5,000 pounds. That is enough to lift most cars and light trucks let alone just pull them. With a handful of nuts and bolts, I could make up whatever length I needed. But the think I found most useful was that the nylon straps would stretch under load.
I watched numerous people trying to pull a car out of a ditch with a chain or cable. If they didn't have enough traction to make the pull, they would inevitably get a running start. And, they would break or bend something. When I would get a running start, the nylon seat belt would stretch, I would stop moving, and the stored energy in the strap would gradually pull the car out.
Now, I would go up under the car and find a sturdy point on the frame and wrap the strap around that. So, I never had one break. But, if it did break, it is going to be flying directly toward the attachment point on the other car. So long as everyone stays well away from the path, they will be OK. The shackle is not going to make a sudden turn and strike a bystander. At worst it might do some minor property damage to one of the cars.
There's another channel (MadMatt 4WD I think) that breaks down a tragedy that occurred in the US recently. It was a snatch strap (correction: chain) hooked to a drop hitch on the tow vehicle. It snapped at the right angle and ended up through the driver side of the front windscreen of the vehicle being recovered. Yes, the driver died. The image of the damage caused by the hitch and the strap (correction: chain) to the windscreen is a graphic example of what can go wrong.
Good channel to follow
Dude! Links, we like links around here!
@@bigglyguy8429 ua-cam.com/users/MadMatt4WD
@@bigglyguy8429 utube deletes links..
@@petesmitt They used to but not so much now
I’ve done work for a lot of different companies, and a lot of different types of work. Had a hard time holding a job due to my disability to be honest. But one of those jobs was working for a company that built trailer hitches, or couplers which ever you want to call it. And no these was not hitches you bolt go a car, as these was meant to be welded or bolted to the trailer so you could hitch it to your tow vehicle. Every one of those things had to meet, or exceed the weight stamped on the coupler. We even had a ball that was connected to a hydraulic piston to test each coupler with. Thing often sounded like a shotgun going off, if and when the coupler would fail. And yes we broke a lot of shit doing that, and often had to break down faulty equipment to be sent back to the foundry to be recast. And the most dangerous thing in any kind of vehicle recovery isn’t a snap strap! It’s the idiot that has no fucking clue what they are doing. Most professions I’ve seen use wenches, with J hooks and sometimes straps or chains when the wench cable isn’t long enough.
One of your most interesting and informative topics yet. Thanks for creating this John.
Tractive recovery is very difficult on the beach in soft sand which is why snatch straps are so popular. Nobody wants to get down on their hands and knees in the hot sand and dig for half an hour first. On the positive side on the beach it is only sand holding you in place which offers little resistance, when you are stuck in sucking mud or your axle is hooked over a rock its a different game.
I don't own a snatch strap and never will, but if you do want to use it a good start is always to get rid of the ten kids running around and the mother holding her baby watching first.
Many, many years ago I did one of the first recoveries I ever did. The vehicle I was recovering was using their own strap. I didn't know enough to really inspect the strap. I engaged low range and slowly let the clutch out and their was an almighty "slap" on the back of my vehicle and it jumped forward. The strap had snapped, luckily hitting my bumper and not any of the ten people milling around watching. Lesson learned.
I spent the first few years of my engineering career using earthworks machinery to get other machines unbogged. Would always use a chain and do it slow. 20y later I now carry a tow strap never used a snatch.
A most enlightening and informative video John, on these overrated snatch straps. I’ve personally witnessed numerous failures of these straps, (with some horrific injuries incurred, to some hapless souls.) since 1978, when l first got into four wheel driving.
After witnessing a breakage of these snatch straps and the horrific injuries that a person can sustain, l swore l’d never use one for a recovery or accept the use of one, to extract my vehicle.
Well said.
Compulsory viewing for anyone who may need to use the gear discussed.
Hi John. Love these videos. This one has been a huge eye opener (as someone who has just financially committed to the purchase of a vehicle often pre-disposed for activities that end up participating in activities like this).
One thing I’ve been thinking a bit about over the last few months though, is when is something “special”, no longer “special”?
Like… all your videos are “Special Reports”. All of them. I don’t remember the last time you did one that wasn’t launched with the “Special Report” sting!
Maybe you need a sting for “don your safety helmet because it’s time to use those noggins for some beer garden physics” or something catchier?
Keep up the great work!
@@Renegade040 just because I’m curious (never done a recovery before), but how would you plan, orientate, prepare, protect, guard, or otherwise, a situation such that said 2kg projectile couldn’t harm someone?
i would say that the biggest mistake that is ever made in a recovery is not using the dampener that comes with every kit. it is often disguised as the carry bag.
Being a T109, I know a SHOVEL is the first aide to recovery. These slingey things and so called recovery kits are sold to soft cocks in their soft roaders so the driver thinks he doesn’t need to get dirty. As my old transport supervisor used to say….’You got it bogged, you get it out.’*( excessive profanity deleted)
And I’m talking about Acco F1 6x6 and Unimog trucks…it still beggers belief that my mates find recreation in cross country driving. Nothing but hard yakka in the Green Machine. Been there. Not fun.
The F1 had the best winch though.
@@njwithers 157 grease nipples, and half of them in the fairleads.
I see a number of comments suggesting the use of soft shackles, but nobody mentions what happens when the entire steel bumper is ripped off and comes flying back, (with the soft shackle still attached).
Unfortunately, most of the 4WD adventure channels available online show the ''snatch strap'' recovery method as there go to method if winching is not available.
What they don't tell you is that most are newer vehicles (no rust or corrosion) very well maintained (no loose bolts, etc) that have been heavily modified including upgraded recovery points on front and back of their vehicles.
Rocovery dangers can be minimised and the number one safety tip is to STOP using limps of meral to attach straps. Soft shackles are the way to go.
Thank heavens - John you present a solution for a very serious problem. Good on you and thank you.
Thanks John.
For me the first option is lower the tyre pressure. Then it’s some sort of recovery board like maxtrax with a bit of shovel work. I’ve gone away from the steel shackles to soft shackles to combat some of that projectile problem. If you think the recovery point is dodgy, I wonder if a secondary sling could be added?
Hmmmm. If the recovery point looks dodgy, then I think it’s back to the shovel!
Landrover has a book called "Winching In Safety" which go's into the loads involved of different types of recovery's.
Wow! A real eye opener. Just getting into 4wd and this has really been educational. Thank you!
Glad you brought this to light.
Those snatch straps are scary, but they do work and work quite well in their primary objective.
I have been shit canning these things for years because of exactly what you have brilliantly explained.
But I do not agree totally with what you have said about chains.
Years ago, I was fortunate enough to see a cattle truck road train being pulled from a creek using a Volvo loader using nothing but chain and shackles.
The chain or shackle snapped and can't remember which, but the end result was the chain shot back into the loaders radiator and went straight through the perforated steel grill and continued
through the hydraulic oil and charge air and radiator cores and into the fan.
Yes, the chain is a far safer option but the elasticity of chains must also be taken into account.
In the ideal world they may have used a shorter length of chain and better choice of shackles but when in the bush you have got to make do with what is at hand.
Whilst driving a dumpy I pulled a stump out with a snatch strap, good job the bucket was up. The stump ricocheted off it and chipped my right ear
Two things that bring out the experts,keys locked in a car and a bogged 4wd
Agree about the risk. Sometimes though the towing vehicle can't get traction if using a non-stretching strap or cable. In this instance, snatch strap is the way to go if no other equipment is available. Best to carry a range of options and try low risk methods first but be fully prepared to get out of trouble.
Many years ago probably in the 70s when I had a landcruser I went to out of Adelaide a 4wd club meeting.
They had set up a demo of the dangers of snachstraps.
They had a heavy post in the ground as an anchor.
A couple of sheets of corregated roofing in front.
A 4wd had the other end attached via a much thinner cord.
When the 4wd took off and got to the point the cord broke the shackle rocketed back and straight through the roofing iron
A VERY GRAFFIC. DEMO OF THE INHERENT DANGERS.
Have to agree with you that the 4WD accessory companies have a lot to answer for. The only benefit of a lot of the stuff they sell is to them, in the form of profits.
Nonsense
@@xpusostomos ARB shareholder then?
@@gazzafloss Someone who believes an unmodified Prado can make it safely anywhere through through the High Country are we?
@@nobody6056 well I guess some can drive and others need assistance then?
@@gazzafloss Srsly? 40+ years driving seriously hard core terrain including as a surveyor into the most remote parts of the continent when I was in the army. This is one area where I know my shit. Take a modern 4WD straight out the showroom to say, Cape Voltaire (NW WA) and see how you (don’t) go…indeed, just tag along in High Country awhile and you’ll soon see the limitations of a modern, stock 4WD.
Thank you John. I have never used a kinetic strap to recover a vehicle. My wagon was once pulled out of a minor washed out crossing with a strap which was kinetic but I reckon that a standard strap would have done just as well. I have never seen a kinetic strap used at a construction site, landfill or quarry. Chains, inelastic straps, and ropes (and occasionally a push from an excavator bucket) are used to get vehicles out of slippery spots. Why take a silly chance?
You can tie ropes to each end of the snatch strap and secure them to the vehicles at each end so if the strap breaks, the rope will stop one end flying off into the missus's head - if that's the concern.
That's pretty smart. A short rope attached to the vehicle and to each end of the snatch strap. It would stop the flying projectile problem. Too bad most of the people using these things would never remember that
If it's too short, it also breaks and makes the situation worse. Too long and it hits you anyway. That's a pretty difficult thing to navigate.
@@xpusostomos good grief, you know nothing.
@@Rampart.X oh, and your hair brained idea is so great, that exactly zero experts recommend it. You're a fool.
That’s generally how quasi government agencies (universities etc) do it. Most commonwealth agencies simply ban snatch straps, shovel and/or winch or call the NMRA, or something.
I've tried those snatch straps with the claimed "safety fuse", I can personally say that fuse fails instantly when the main snatch strap breaks. I like the idea, but the manufacturer massively underestimates the energy going through the strap if you have a land cruiser accelerating as fast as it can on the other side
I agree with many of the points John mentioned. Snatch straps are bloody dangerous and I personally think before anyone gets out there to dingo piss creek some formalise recovery training is absolutely necessary. Whether through a 4WD Club or other private training institution . I just completed some initial recovery training myself and there is a recovery order starting for the least dangerous, back filling with rocks, digging out or maxx tracks, to kinetic pulls to snatch pulls and then the winch. Winch and Snatch pulls being the most dangerous so they are the last resort. Probably the only disagreement is that there is a place for snatch straps in a situation where the winch is not available or not practical and a static pull won’t work due to just how stuck the car is. It needs that stored built up energy in the snatch strap to release it from its situation. Even then you start slow and build up pull speeds until you get the right amount of energy to get the stuck car out. You try and minimise the risk as much as possible. Also disagree with using tow balls even with a static strap if the strap goes limp or slips off on the pull it just sounds like a recipe for disaster. A purpose built recovery point off the tow hitch is the way to go. They don’t even cost much.
Great advice. Always been an advocate of try other avenues. I’ve been in heavy industry and completed many crane/lifting courses. None of the courses use elastic straps. Even in mining 4WD courses it’s last resort. Even then the straps are weighted with 2 blanket bags (dampeners) filled with sand over them.
If you want to see what can go wrong with Recovery from towball look at Ronney Dahl he has a video about recovery snatch straps and snapping tow balls, took 15 goes to break it in snatch type scenario.
Is it because people actually use them to violently "snatch" out a vehicle.
Agree but did you just hear the power at 10 km = 180 km 😱
Yes; makes for entertaining YT vids...see Inskip.....
@@kennyknackers6084 nah, I'm a mechanic in the southern USA, and in my experience not many people who are stuck enough to want the equipment, are bothered enough to learn how to properly implement it. I also wouldn't consider them to be remotely cautious.
@@Nipplator99999999999 Those who are cautious may save a life.
@@rais1953 yep, but this area is a whole new level of special needs stupid. They will run two snatch straps from the biggest mobile truck to the stuck truck. Then take as much of a full throttle run as slack allows to usually just get most of the truck unstuck. Whilst the transfer case of the big boy is everywhere except where it should be.
I've recovered thousands of vehicles over the years with snatch straps and have seen people who dont know what they're doing use them improperly. A framed out 8k lb truck only takes about 10mph to recover. Ive seen some people hit 4k lb cars at 15 to 20mph on questionable points and break them. Ive been through dozens of straps over the years but nobody is probably recovering people as much as I do.
The only problem with ditching the snatch strap is that the kinetic energy in the strap is what gets you out of very boggy conditions where a straight pull with a chain often won't do it and sometimes you can't dig it out either.
The other problem with snatch recoveries is, you never know how the person pulling you out is going to behave, often only a very small amount of acceleration is needed to get a successful recovery but most idiots are obsessed with flooring it indescribably every time. Snatch straps are just not worth the risk.
I once read that the best way of doing a snatch recovery (assuming a snatch is the only feasible method of recovery), was to have the moving vehicle have one car length of slack in the rope maximum at the outset and drive off sensibly in 4L, thereby reducing the chance of catastrophic failure & similarly, only doing it when the towed vehicle had rated recovery points!
In the seventies, while working with some Forestry boys, they used chains but connected it to a tyre in the middle for towing.
Having owned a modified Jimny this was interesting to watch to see what other people have to be concerned about with their 4x4s. I had to google the term "stuck" and "recovery" just so I knew what everyone was talking about.
;)
As having received and provided training in the use of recovery equipment I too observed how much reliance was placed on the snatch strap as the "get out of jail free" card. In any recovery operation I advise that the first step is always to slow things down, have a look, do a bit of a risk assessment. I was involved with a winch recovery once, vehicle absolutely bogged and not moving, doing a triple line pull. Before we even set that one up we had some lunch and a chat over how we were going to approach it as the forces were really getting up there.
When using a strap I always make the first attempt at low speed, the bogged vehicle may just need an assist, rather than ripping the front out of it with a 200 series in low range an in drive so it will upshift during the recovery, increasing the energy further.
The last part is that the equipment used does have to be load rated. There is far too much stuff out there which is not load rated, and that is a real recipe for disaster.
I have done a lot of trail riding and the snatch strap always worked great now there's a way to use them we only bumped the strap a little never just drove as fast as we could and never tried something that we can just look at and know it's to heavy the large trucks either winch or use pulleys because if your In the mud digging doesn't work well , I say chains are way worse but even using them the right way they can get the job done .
The best way of explaining this to someone who doesn't even understand simple arithmetic is to place an unfolded paper clip on an elastic band, ask the person being explained to to hold the paperclip and elastic band under tension and let go the paperclip. THEN explain the magnitude of difference in joules between a snatch strap and elastic band:)
Hey there. I live in Ontario Canada and fuel here right now is gasoline is around 1.55/L and diesel is around 2.30/L
Nice analysis on this one, John. Wherever energy can be stored, danger lurks-could be springs, air pressure, height (mgh), charged capacitors, rotational momentum, etc. One of the things I tried to pass on to my students in physics class.
i think AVE sums it up pretty well- “everythings a spring and springs want to kill you”
@@soberholic Yeah, AVE is a vast storehouse of all things mechanical (and most things electronic). I hadn't read this quote though-it kind of reflects his dark side. And good luck on your journey. My son is an alcoholic/addict who has been working to stay clean. Every day is a struggle, and a success.
I still remember watching in amusement watching a bloke in his 4X4 ( after ignoring advice from others and myself) to pull his mate in a Liberty wagon out of ditch by putting a snatch strap by putting a snatch strap around the rear axle, well it didn't go well for the Subi rear axle and suspension!
Sorry johno, you forgot to mention " elfresco bongs"
Love the explanation. Not the first program on the subject but it is the best. I love the combination of common sense and physics. 🧸
Funniest thing. A Land Rover got stuck in a creek when the tide was out. An old Lady in her nighty came out of her bach, hopped in the Land Rover and found the vehicle was only in 2 WD. She put it into 4WD, INTO LOW and drove it free. A middle aged male driver who owned the LR stood by and watched. There was about 25 4WD Club vehicles watching. Kept us amused until sleep time.
So glad to see this. About time, thanks
Blue singlets are correctly known in Straya as "wife beaters".
Wife beater and Blunnie o'clock is the correct terminology in Straya.
Detail is important.
“Rated” recovery points is the dumbest term ever. Everything has a rating. Your tow hook has a rating. But it’s not high enough a rating to snatch using it.
The term “Rated” without a rating supplied is pointless. The rating might be 500kg or might be 5000kg. Either way it has a rating and is therefore rated.
The rating must be published and printed on the recovery point for it to be any use to anyone.
Well said . 👍👍
No mention of the sandbag things or a big blanket over the strap? They can muffle all the velocity
Was looking at an interesting video reviewing a fatal accident attempting to recover a truck from mud. The towball attachment failed and was fired through the windscreen straight at the driver. A terrible tragedy which was totally avoidable with a little knowledge.
It's not the towball that fails, it's what holds it to the vehicle.
I've found a multiple size insert tow ball, it's a large bolt, inserts for all sizes, and cup stand. A client of mine asked me to come help detach his boat. Turns out the stand underneath the insert collapsed and I just had to kick the trailer rear corner and it fell off. Not sure what kept it hitched until then.
I can honestly say, I know saying that makes me seem like I'm not...or does that? Either way. I've never gotten my car stuck in the mud, snow, or bodies of water. Between 2 trees a meter off the ground, halfway through a safety wall at the dragstrip, high centered many speed bumps, and on top of a Honda (technically it got stuck under me), but nothing wet unless it was raining.
Views of Matt's Offroad Recovery UA-cam channel where he uses his kinetic recovery rope are likely to skyrocket now. Everybody will be waiting for the projectile episode!
I watch that channel often. Pretty much every time Matt will attach a bridle between two attachment points on the bogged vehicle and then attach the snatch rope to the bridle so it can move freely. I would guess that would significantly reduce the risk, as the load is spread between two points, rather than just on one.