Could he go into more detail on what makes gryphons forward light/bash mixup good? It feels that for a while the devs 'fixed' a character by giving them unblockables and then once the community got tired of it... The devs 'fixed' a character by hiving orange/blue mixups One thing that I have always wanted to see, are bash mixups that don't rely on the undogeable property Maybe highlight why the forward dodge change was instrumental would help the community push for more changes like that so we get more variety then legion kick variant?
When you talked about your success with Gryphons and his neutral offence you mentioned the improvement due to the enhanced dodgeforward light creating a mixup with the bash. If I remember correctly you didnt talk about the dodge forward heavy of gryphon in particular. Im wondering if/when/how you use it from neutral in combination with the other moved accessable from forward dodge. Tldr; Please explain gryphons neutral offence. I found it very interesting.
@crook9698 probably because it's semi fast and even if they block it you could easily get into the unblockable and undodagable mix up. Especially on out of Stam opponents.
The key thing that For Honor and its community can't seem to conceptualize (naturally, given that the game barely functioned on release) is mental stack. At the bottom line, a ton of things in even other fighting games that are much faster than For Honor, they are reactable. Tons of things are reactable. It's just that there is always one or more options that threaten any given situation, and a human can't account for everything at the same time. That's the concept of mental stack. You're forced to make mistakes because there's too much to consider. BP's dodge forward options get mentioned this video as a good example. Chain offense/pressure is For Honor's version of blockstrings, which are also a form of creating mental stack by utilizing both a multitude of options and varying frame advantage. For Honor has gotten to a point where they just refuse to add new moves for some reason, that instead they just make it outright impossible to react to things. There's not really anything wrong with it as long as the risk/reward skew is properly considered, but the issue is that it isn't being properly considered most of the time. Too many characters rely entirely on a single best move specifically BECAUSE the risk/reward is improperly skewed. Seriously the main problem with For Honor is that neither the devs or the playerbase knows what basic character "tools" should be and what something "character-defining" is. It's like looking at Ken and Ryu and saying they're basically the same, they're not, despite having almost all the same stuff. It comes down to the details, which For Honor can't have because movesets are so shallow that basic character tools/weaknesses become character defining traits. It's MOBA hero design put into a fighting game, which doesn't belong. Fighting game character identities are defined by the details, not the basic tools they have access to (excluding a few gimmicks like not having a fireball in exchange for better rushdown). The reason why more "shallow" character design works in MOBA games is because the rest of the game is so complex, which allows them to emphasize positioning/teamwork over mechanical skill, where MOBAs tend to place a majority of meaningful decision-making. Fighting game decision making is entirely about how you use your slightly different set of tools against someone else's slightly different tools, but you're always at even footing as a baseline regarding your toolkit's functionality. The reason being that in a fighting game, every 1 on 1 encounter and interaction should feel significant. Not a case of who can do what, only with some edge-case exceptions (invincible DP, midscreen poke, or delayed/slow projectile, to name a few).
This explains my issues with For Honor perfectly. Hell, that’s why Highlander is my favourite hero, despite being absolute dogshit. His move set is actually minimally interesting compared to others.
Until read-based offense is the de facto viable offense in FH, players with better reactions will consistently dominate the game and severely limit the pool of competitive players.
@@borisshnitkov7600sually fast reactions help to a large degree but it doesn't often make up a majority of the top player bases in other games. Usually there's quite a few older players who aren't necessarily the best at reacting.
Thats a fake excuse, first of all, reactions are trainable, my average in 190, yet I worked to react on some stuff that have 160ms reaction window, and even without that, toetmined fkn went into the final in a duel tournament, against 7 reaction players, if he can do it, that means everyone can
Why For Honor need to be read base entirely? Every fighting game is so there is nothing wrong on being different. They are just focusing on competitive and leaving behind all what made this game unique a fun to play.
It's funny to think the entire player base at one point stumbled around when learning the game since the beginning since we've never had a good tutorial.
Considering how important frame advantage is AND how the developers speak about frame advantage in the Warrior's Den streams it is frustrating there is no training mode tool to highlight move start-up and recovery. Other fighting games that rely upon or simply acknowledge how frame advantage affects their game includes training tools that display the frame data graphically so players can learn what they can and can't do depending on what they or their opponent has done. Mortal Kombat 11 had a really impressive (to me) frame advantage display changing the color of both you and the opponent to red and green showing when you can and cannot act in addition to displaying the frame/damage in plain text. The Tekken series has an option just like this. For Honor needs this as well, a training mode overlay, not just some limited training stage designed to just give you an idea and let you try to figure it out on your own.
I’ve always felt like if players thought of For Honor as a Fighting game (the genre), the community would be so much better. Labbing characters and interactions is unheard of for the casual playerbase despite being essentials in your average fighting game. Of course to encourage this I’d say Ubisoft really needs some updates to their training arena. The ability to mimic latency, more custom move pool options, the ability for the training bot to FEINT, etc
I’m glad for the bash change. Most of us couldn’t react anyway so it doesn’t really effect us but it give us something to leverage against the reaction players
Couldn't agree more about the definition of reactability across the board, often times you'll find people reacting to animation or movement counting as reacting, which it really isn't because they aren't reacting the attack, they're still making a read on movement, and there are those who say something is near unreactable jsut because they can't react to it and blame those who can. It's absurd. I'm happy with changes levelling the playing field a bit, but this isn't how it should be. The comp scene has no valid arguments currently, they judt dont like having to make a read. I also don't like them punishing people who can react Huge extra downside of this, is that characters without a bash, are only going to get worse. I don't want every character to have a bash, they're already blending together by this point especially with the lb testing ground
i agree with that not everyone should have a bash but unfortunately they need it, since we are getting to the point of not just a bad matchup but basically if you pick "x" character against "y" you lose for example Centurion vs Any character with a dodge cancel, at least in 4v4 you just simply can't close the gap if the dodge cancel character wants to keep distance it's ridiculous they have complete control of the flow of the fight and can move so freely it's really frustrating.
@@carlosescamilla5260 with these tg changes, hero's are going to need bashes if they don't have one to compete. At the moment, hero's without bashes from neutral are perfectly fine and strong picks, zerk is a fine example. Even those with a sub par bash like cent still have the option of bashing, if you give him a buff, or if these changes go through, he outclasses every other bash and those without a bash or dodge changes, whichever way you look at it this has to be done very carefully, like what didn't happen with the dodge attack changes. Give one thing to one side, the other gets beaten, give it to both, everything gets stale, and I do not want dodge recovs on every character as much as I don't want a bash on every character. So cent and others like him can be left where he is rn save causing more problems.
When reads do become the de facto thing that all competitive play is based around, movesets NEED to become more complex for that read based gameplay to become more interesting.
I do agree with the feed back part, alot of people beat a character and think they can react to it eveytime, not realizing maybe the player they went up against was very predictable and they knew the bash was coming subconsciously, because they picked up on their opponents habits and attack patterns. Or sometimes its dumb luck. On top of this most players dont practice their reactions, dont practice dealing with certain offense, and just play mindlessly, there only practice is when they just play online. the comp players practice, and skrim with eachother, so its no surprise they are better then you. They get punished for being good and learning the game, meanwhile the average player gets rewarded for not doing anything but complaning? When i encounter a player better then me, i learn, i try to adapt, learn their habits to counter their playstle, but sometimes you can still lose and thats fine, you cant win all of them.
I’m pretty sure 400ms is the fastest dodge forward in the game currently 300ms might be a bit much Edit: oops just realized you meant the delay ability of dodge forward bashes not the actual speed that f the bash itself
I found the video very informative, learning a lot from normie and loving the ideas presented. The education issue of frame advantage and the mysterious budget of developers stood out to me. We should pay attention to other small details mentioned, such as feats. I strongly believe that heroes, both new and old, can benefit from more imaginative feats. This has the potential to address the issue of repetitive and boring gameplay. By introducing animated feats instead of chains, heroes can have unique identities. Fun feats can justify standardized chains. Moreover, implementing this early could be a cost-effective alternative to full mocap production.
This is a very good video, so many interesting points broken down on the state of the game. Fantastic choice of guest freeze, like always your making the best content, I just hope ubi tuned in for this.
This is the 1st video in years, from any content creator, that has actually talked about the real issue of the state of For Honor. This is the 1st video that has people discussing what actually matters.
As an honestly “high level” “casual” player I’m just gonna throw this out there. Imo the game is the funnest it’s ever been. Coming from a player who’s been playing since launch the game is in the best place it’s ever been.
I don’t understand the obsession with making offense unreactable (especially in neutral). To start, mix ups do not need to be unreactable to be effective. Let’s use a very common example: a “react Andy” is turtling and only trying to parry lights from neutral, but instead of throwing a light, the other guy throws a heavy and hits the guy. Even though both options were reactable, Andy still had to make a read if he wanted a punish instead of just taking chip damage. I’ve been in this scenario many times with me being the Andy before the CCU and being the other guy after on old gen console. Making attacks faster only widens the skill gap between players because only the ones with cracked reactions will be able to fight against it without making reads that are not in their favor. If we focused more on having each individual option be reactable, but add more commitment to defense like increasing feint timings so characters like glad can’t feint before getting hit in a situation similar to the first scenario, the skill level wouldn’t be just tied to your reaction time. TL;DR: focusing on reactable mix ups is better than trying to make offense unreactable
Regarding the minute 15:00. I genuinely don't understand why would it be a bad thing (Button mashing as it was called) if every unblockable, feint and bashes became unreactable. 99.9% of the playerbase already play an unreactable game and the characters don't feel like they blend together because of unreactability, so that wouldn't be an issue. Also character identity shouldn't be tied to reactability. If some moves should be reactable, then they should be not just for tournament players, but for most people then. Should some offense moves be reactable then? Who will this partial reactability benefit? So making reads are being called "button mashing" now? So technnical play is staring and reacting? Considering you wont have instant bashes with 100ms dodge startup, you will have some time to see the dodge and do the read accordingly. It's not like it's buffing WL's bash to be 100ms into dodge and 400ms of animation... Speeding up bashes can be done by hiding indicators and animation by a frame or two and we will still have the same total timing with the same frame advantage rules but with actual unreactable attacks against anyone. Then we have no problem with ganks being harder to interrupt or being interrupted more frequently in teamfights. If neutral offense becomes riskier, then lower all the damages and keep the chain offense doing more damage than neutral offense. Then you'll have low risk, low rewards moves and so on. There are solutions to everything.
ur misunderstanding the explanation. You seeing an unblockable heavy and making a read on countering it is NOT buttonmashing, however if they choose to speed up everything in order to make it "truly unreactable" you will not have time to see a heavy and make a read on it, you will be making a read on the attack being a heavy or coming at you in the first place (this is buttonmashing). Now imagine everything is like that, you are basically just gambling. You would not enjoy having to throw a dice for a 1 out of 6 chance to counter something for every single move in the game.
Technical play is decidening when to react, when to use which offense, when to read, be calculated, not pressing bottons just with the hope that it lands
I really appreciate the reasonable approach here and especially the explanation of reactions. So many people don't really understand how reactions work in the game. That being said I'm confused by normies analysis. He says that the bash changes would be very good for 1v1 but he also says that it would de-emphasize chain offense and ruin frame advantage and interrupts. If they went with 466ms legion kick style bash for everyone what would be the issue? I don't think 33 ms changes much about frame advantage or interrupts. The bashes would have 300ms startup minimum, you can't really interrupt with that. Yes, unreactable neutral bash would make empty dodges + gb threatening at all levels. But I don't think it's OP because you can easily stuff it with a light or neutral gb. It's slower, more vulnerable, less damaging than afeera neutral bash so I don't think that's a great comparison. Same thing with ganks. It would still initiated with a mixup with faster bashes it's just a bit more effective because neutral dodge + gb is threatening. So then why not increase revenge gain as a band aid fix?
It’s one of the most frustrating parts of the community. If you didn’t play the game and only talked to the community you’d assume everyone is a reaction god that parries every attack and dodges every bash
They can nerf ganks by making revenge scary again. Make it to where when you activate revenge, all enemies around get a "fear" debuff. Making them not able to run or roll away. Like nuxias feat. Up the damage value of revenge x1.5. Then people would be a little more cautious when ganking.
This makes me remember launch day revenge, which I believe gave a higher damage boost to begin with, on pre CCU damage numbers with some attacks being far too strong even above that level, like Warden's double light after a shoulder bash doing 30 damage. Then you also had gear stats at the time that gave you a percentage boost to things like revenge gain and revenge damage, and revenge was constantly filled up simply by being hit or blocking, slightly so but it was possible to gain revenge in a simple 1v1 anyway. Once got hit by an Orochi zone for like 60 damage, it was nuts lmao Also some Raiders would heavy you for more than 100 damage, it was a silly time. Maybe you played back then too and you remember it as well. Players like Setback (I believe that was his name) were called incredibly anti-ganking pros but essentially he just had good gear and would spam his PK zone attack during ganks and 3 hit kill any player standing in his general vicinity.
Im more of Tech (not a reaction gamer more of read based and i prefer offense over defense)player with a 2.61 Kd and a faced some guys that has good reaction and its boring to fight these kind of guys because even Lights are hard to land(its funny to get them with a raw Heavy opener😂) i truly liked this change i iust wish all bashes were in 100Ms into the forward dodge.
Just make all the forward static bash 300-500ms delayability with 400 or 433ms speed. All players will have to make a read if it's a bash or an empty dodge. Than make all heroes have a fast forward enhanced light/heavy attack, or like the TG's LB forward dodge with no recovery so you can do a neutral light or heavy to catch empty dodges, and be able to parry interrupt lights when you empty dodge. Now for offense, you can "bash/dodge forward attacks/empty dodge/empty dodge than parry" to catch "no reaction/empty dodge/dodge attacks/light interrupt". That's now a read-based offense and defense. Also make all of the forward bash don't chain into anything and be dodge-cancel-able (Tiandi and Yanhu) and be punish with a GB if missed or make all of them only chain into top light (like Shaolin) and neutral heavy.
I can't entirely agree with the first part when Normie talk about who is comp and who isn't. It would be best if you distinguished top-level from comp players. Because top-level players are comp, not every comp player is at the "top" because the nature of the top is that someone needs to be on the bottom in any comp scene.
I think it's great to get this insight into a somewhat representative viewpoint, so thank you for that. But I'm walking away from this video with a big question. Even if we all agree the TG changes are bad, Normie blatently shows the issue of reactability is something that needs fixing. How does he propose to fix it? Some reaction players don't want the tg changes because they then can't react anymore. That's not an argument against the TG changes, fully agree. Normie showed how the TG changes would bring different problems with them. Fully agree. But the changes would fix (at least maybe in part) the reaction differences present in the community. 15:20 illustrates the problem and Freeze tried to make the point there. For many players chain offense is irrelevant, because they already can't react to neutral. And the point Normie makes after that doesn't really help. Good onboarding is important, game knowledge of - for example - frame advantage is invaluable, no doubt. But we're not talking extremes here. For Honor is STILL trying to walk the line of reactablilty, which is impossible when reaction times differ even by a small margin. We can compare potato brains failing to interrupt a Warlord against someone who reacts to storming tap in training, but that's not helpful. Even just using the example of neutral lights: There exists a portion of players who can't parry a neutral light when anticipating one. There exists a portion of players who can. There exists a portion of players who sometimes can. Same with bashes. Same with some unblockable feints. This is a problem that needs fixing. Just like onboarding. Just like ganking. Just like so many other problems this game still has. [Small tangent - TL;DR afterwards] Having the basic fight interaction be this divisive is a big problem. Disregarding any moveset, any chain, any special moves, any bashes what we're left with are GBs, light and heavy attacks (maybe even bashes). The basic framework on which a hero's moveset builds upon. Some core mechanic that is invariable across the entire cast. This is what new players interact with at first. This is what's at the core of the combat system. This core system should not be something that some portion of players can counter way easier than another. At it seems that the comp community - or at least normie - agrees. Neutral offense being completely unreactable is bad because it leads to people disregarding 80% of a moveset. To end the tangent: So how can we fix this reactibility issue - the one the TG aims to fix - without worsening the experience for everyone? Going 180° and fully commiting to reactable neutral offense can't be the answer, as heaps of discussions around the turtle meta have shown. TL;DR: The TG was meant to even out reactability across the playerbase. The TG somewhat achieves that. Normie makes a good case that the TG changes have problematic consequences. So let's not push TG changes to live. Okay, so how CAN we fix the reactability issue while minimizing issues regarding ganking, frame advantage etc.? Advocating for the satus quo has a sour taste if you benefit from the status quo, no matter how good of an argument you make.
reddit is the place to give feedback, the issue is that 90% of the feedback there is trash tier or morons wanting what benefits them instead of what benefits the game.
First, I just want to say that the button mashing argument is like, the exact same thing people were saying about the CCU hidden indicator changes, and it's just as dumb now as it was then. Your opponent being able to throw something that you can't punish on reaction is good, actually. If you don't believe me, look at the majority of the player base not being able to react to most 300/500 bashes on live, right now, with no signs of mindless button mashing or whatever winning out against people who actually know how to play. Second, I think there's a pretty obvious solution to the only real argument against these changes, the interrupt/FA/pacing concerns. Just increase the time from dodge -> bash by the amount you decrease the bash animation length. So for example a 500ms 300/500 bash like we have now would instead be a 400ms 400/600 bash, or a 433ms 366/566 bash, etc. That way the amount of time it takes to hit someone with a bash from neutral is the exact same (between 800 and 1000ms), but the part you can react to is still shortened to the extend it can't be reaction dodged. Plus, this would reinforce the idea of seeing a forward dodge and making a read, as the window to make a read is lengthened and the actual bash animation is so fast that you must dodge on read.
common misunderstanding due to me not having time to explain without the video being 1hr, ill copy paste what ive said to the others who said this: "You seeing an unblockable heavy and making a read on countering it is NOT buttonmashing, however if they choose to speed up everything in order to make it "truly unreactable" you will not have time to see a heavy and make a read on it, you will be making a read on the attack being a heavy or coming at you in the first place (this is buttonmashing). Now imagine everything is like that, you are basically just gambling. You would not enjoy having to throw a dice for a 1 out of 6 chance to counter something for every single move in the game."
@@normieee_ But that isn't at all what these changes do. Even with the strictest of the new timings, a 300/500 bash would give you 700ms from the opponent's forward dodge to make a read. Heck, if it takes you an entire 400ms to realize they're dodging that's still 300ms to decide whether you want to dodge or not. As the intended function of this mixup is to force a read on a forward dodge, this works completely fine. And that's not even considering the possibility I mentioned of making bashes start later into the dodge to keep the exact same timing we have right now as far as making a read is concerned.
@@GreekGeek-dh2kh my issue is moreso that its way too strong for what it is, not what its doing, if it was between u eating the bash light and a other 15 dmg attack it would be alright. 14/24 is however not fine at all.
@@normieee_ The argument that these bashes will be too strong after being sped up ignores the fact that they already work like this for most people. All this would do is even the playing field and make everyone face these mixups as intended, preventing people with insane reaction times from circumventing the whole interaction currently do
@@GreekGeek-dh2kh and becayse they already work like that for u theyre not too strong??? problem is that they didnt address this earlier and only now when ppl are making a big fuss about it is it brought up, it shouldnt be that strong against reaction players or read players
The bash changes are good. If a neutral GB doesn’t have any pressure in mixup with neutral bash, your bash is too slow. They all need the 100ms startups. Honestly the dodge attack changes are what completely killed any defense in the game. And offense is way to fucking safe. Dodge recoveries and being able to chain after a whiffed bash on offense etc is the reason offense is so safe and you have like a 1/5 chance of maybe making the right read and punishing offense. Honestly we just need to admit Orochi is probably one of the best characters in the game because he’s high damage, low risk offense and defense. He really does have an “unpunishable” bash despite Freeze being defending he didn’t back in the day. You’re not punishing the bash if he can safely chain into a 32+ damage heavy that makes it safe from GB. You need a dedicated dodge attack, and you can’t go for a GB or follow up light parry without risking too much damage. It’s just too many reads to make in a small time window to practically punish the bash. Tiandi and Zanhu also have safe risk rewards on their bashes. Having good hitboxes on your dodges attacks you can external people with and chains and recovery cancels on those dodge attacks is essentially what makes up good defense now. And good offense consists of almost constant frame advantages, almost unpunished offensive or isn’t reliably and consistently punished with a favorable risk reward. Examples are level charged bashes you can just front into a GB, you don’t actually have to commit and only risk maybe eating a light, with potentially high damage and seeing how the opponent will react while conditioning them. As opposed to Shinobi, who has terrible hitboxes and damage and is consistently punished by GB all offensive bashes, openers, and dodge attacks. Shinobi still manages to have the worst damage per second and risk reward ratio in the game having to make the most offensive reads to kill, and is still overrated by his ganking ability. 20 damage heavy finishers, and risking consistent GB punishes for 14 damage offense. They need to make offense consistently punishable and have a good risk reward. Risk reward also needs to be balanced for defense, and that’s why the dodge attack changes were probably the worst change we’ve seen in the last few years because the whole point is to reduce risk against offense and ganking, and now it’s one of the most punishing things you can do. I mean just plain external dodging is now the best defense if you don’t have good hitboxes and recovery on your dodge attacks etc.
For honor has a fundamental problem. The limited moveset and attack option Design was usually meant for reactibility. Unreactible offense paired with simple attack patterns feels bad for the player, since it just feels like buttonmashing instead of a contest of concentration and wits, while the concept of parrypunishes and dodge-attacks for dmg makes reactible offense as a concept impossible. Instead, they could just make it about mental overload though. This could be achieved by making every attack reactible again for everybody, while at the same time giving the attacker continuing frame advantage and infinite attack chains with free choice between bashes, unblockables lights and heavies until the character goes out of stamina. At the same time, change the parry and dodge mechanics, so that all you get from a parry or successful dodge, is the initiative to start your own offense. That way the only way to deal dmg is to attack until the opponent makes a mistake - which he will, because at some point the brain will get overwhelmed by the continuing and ever changing attack patterns. Now increase dmg output across the board, so that wrong reactions get punished severely, and you have a balanced fighting game, where players can literally exchange blows that do not feel like button mashing, and still have an offensive back and forth.
So if i dodge forward as BP, you have no way to react to wether im gonna empty dodge or dodge forward heavy or do a bash, this usually nets some kind of response even if the opponent can react to stuff, since 1 they have to make a read. based only on forward movement which you cant
Although i understand the point of the changes, i would not like a 100% read-based For Honor. I like the read/reaction ratio as it is now and i am fully OK if there are high-skilled re-action monsters out there.
17:45 yeah. So why not make the new 300/400 bashes 400/400, then they have the same implications for interrupts as when they were 300/500, but aren't reactible anymore. Maybe even 500/300, then ppl will have plenty time to mentally prepare their read based response.
I know this isn't the topic of the Video. But I really really struggle to fight Warmongerer (Jorm player). Does anyone have tips or advice on how to help read her attacks or what I can do for the best chance?
With my rep 32jorm I really only get results by playing as belligerent as I can, say the enemy has less than a bar left I just stay still for just over a second then zone, almost always interrupts something. I also ALWAYS feint the slam bash to zone or right heavy everytime I go for it until late round 2, from then on i throw 2 through then feint one repeat, again strangley works more than one would expect. Some scumbag tech is to use the chest besting emote with the red plasma effect then gb or zone out of it whenever you sense very high tension (say 2 wins each and they have a little less health), last little jorm tech I do is to just sorta learn good staggr pressure (neutral light, neutral light, neutral heavy, all same side) it ruins some people quite often, I'm not he worlds greatest and I'm don't really get competitive when I play anymore but these work in ps4 mid diamond
As much as I like these changes, I feel like Conq got nerfed hard with his changes. Worse yet they didn’t quite remove the 100ms bash start up as they gave it to Warden.
@@normieee_How exactly is a 34ms buff in exchange for a 200ms input nerf good? My experience in the testing grounds was terrible. Half the time my bashes were getting interrupted and they were getting doeged more often than in live.
@@FrappyLee at your level nothing changes positively ofcourse since the bash is already unreactable. You are suffering from what i said in the video, the change of pacing that will affect everyone at every level of play. However at high level where ur bash is reactable that 33ms is what makes the difference between ur bash being useless and an amazing tool.
@@normieee_ I think my problem is I’m so used to his bash being quick at the 100ms input so it just feels awful atm. I’d need to play a few more games but personally his forward dodge bash feels worse.
6:45 But a console player complaining they can't react to lights anymore is not the same as a reaction demon complaining he cant react to the bashes anymore. Lights are meant to be blockable on reaction without requiring a read. The bashes that were buffed were not meant to be dodgeable on reaction without requiring a read. I don't think this is a fair comparison.
PC playerbase: Wahhh this is hard and unreactable now!! Console playerbase: First time? Seriously, unless you (and your opponents) live under a radio tower or in a major city, even lights are unreactable for console
Feedback issues for comp players - then speak up to ubi, make yourself heard via any means you deem necessary (like this vid with freeze for one). It's not our (casuals) problem that you aint heard. Reactability misunderstood - in a way, hard to come up with some blanket decision to smooth it out for both slowpokes (me) who barely block 500ms lights (and parry them only on read) and reaction monsters who can grab a shuteye mid your chain and dodge or parry 433ms moves. But what was said above aplies here - it's not their (reactors) problems that slowpokes was born slow, world aint fair, we'll have to suck it up, just give and polish some tools (working tools mind you) for slowpokes to compensate for where they lack (hell if i know what form it can take aside from allguards or sifu/HS). Cant ship it live as is and need some additional stuff for defence or ganking changes - well yeah that's one way of looking at it, but on the other hand - if ppl will suffer through this for a season it will generate enough whining and complains to be more precise and generalised on what should they implement alongside with this change, tg time would not generate enough of feedback for it.
19:03 this alone is probably the main problem i have with all this TG fuss. If the very in-game tutorial fails to explain the basics of the game, what kind of feedback are you expecting? How do you even elaborate the feedback? Are we just taking for granted that some things are common knowledge after 7 years? Cause that's not how it works, not in this game at least...
As much as i actually agree with most points (as someone who liked the tg and has played at an amateur comp level atleast) the point he's trying to make about nobody liking a completely unreactable game is just not true. Look at mortal kombat, street fighter, tekken and so on. 99% of offense is unreatable and you have to win making reads on defense more than offense, and these are some of the most competitive fighters in the world. YES: Im aware for honor is not a traditional fighter. But lets face the facts, it borrows more from this genre than say a shooter BR. Im a strong beliver you can make bashes faster as long as things like stam drain and gb vaunrability is looked over in the same feel swoop. Normie is 100% right that the in chain is where things should get spicy. But how are you gonna do something like this for a hero like warlord or shuggo?? With their current movesets all they have in 1sie is frame advantage. Warlord on top of that got his bash that he can work with IF ppl dont react, and shugo have (very) reactable unblockables My question to normie would be how to make these heroes work without putting alot of effort and time into reworking said heroes, if we dont speed up bashes from neutral for them?
I don't think anyone would have the biggest problem with these particular changes if every hero had a neutral bash in the first place. But that is also something we try to avoid. Pretty much everyone can agree that we don't want a copy and paste for every character. As a comp and veteran Nuxia player that can react to bashes, even I know for fact that if this change was implemented, it will only encourage repetitive fights that will feel no difference from the last.
I was thinking about something like the point he made for bp but for nobushi. Would not it be better if instead of giving her an unblockableas many suggest , they where to give her the ability to softfaint the kick into a tracking side winder? Meany even with a bit of hyper armour , just to trade if the faint is so slow the enemy could simply dodge attack it on reaction of the kick. Same thing could be done for most of character fairly easy. They alredy have the animation they need in most case.
first of all they should make the kick not be 566 thou, but as Nutella has put in his essay about a nobu rework, top UB side undodgeables would be pretty nice
@@nuclearnuc2516 we all know it slow, i was thinking of a way to make it valid in a different way. You can fix most character by " uub + faster bash". It's just boring
I still think heavys should be between 30 to 40 instead of 20 to 30 but just increase health seriously why does nobody talk about just increasing health for everybody instead of an average of 130 go to 190, a tank would have 200 or above, right now its 130/30 = 4.3 for heavy and 130/12 = 10.8 for lights but at 190 it would be 190/40 = 4.75 and 190/12 = 15.8 and then neutral would be okay, if we reduce damage again we have to change the value of multiple attack of 40+ heroes with health is just one value. healing feats have to change a bit.
i just came back after years off and it feels like 90% of the game is just bashes and dodges...i miss the old slower play style with more parries and actually being able to tell where an attack is coming from
I want them to bring back revenge builds or buff revenge gain. Also PK needs a serious buff with her perks, feats, external pressure, and overall damage 💔
i mean the only problem pk has is her external pressure, dmg is pretty good, perks are not heavy perks, which is fine, feats arent fury+fire flask or some other bs like caltrops, but they arent really weak either
@@cykablyat6348 naa they're definitely weak, you have to get to t3 and 4 to get anything useful and you can only use them once each cause of the cooldowns. And not one of her perks/feats lets her heal/shield midfight like most of the other hero's. She's the only hero that can be beaten without the opponent dodging or parrying. Her 18 dmg dodge attack that ends her chain gets punished for 45+ if she dares to fight by a wall. And if she's fighting 2 people her 18 dmg dodge attack becomes 7 dmg cause if you take the time to add bleed to it, you get hit with a heavy. But you have add bleed cause she has zero unblockables without it.
@@shaolinclips she has bounty hunter as a tier1, which is one of the best tier 1's, her tier 2 feats are pretty mid i guess and tier 3 crossbow is ok and fear is good, so her feats are on the average if not above, dodge attack has really good recovery which you arent taking into account and most of the cast dont even have the option to not get punished by a heavy. also "ends her chain" is not wrong, but could be misunderstood, she has frame advantage on almost everything except l maybe the second attack of zone? so she can keep offence going after "ending" her chains, this is really good and even better considering enhanced lights if enemy is bleeding. Also you dont get much hp at all if you have the feat that lets you get 1hp from a minion, so i dont really understand that one, also would rather have bounty hunter than that feat, i guess shinobi can get a lot of hp from minions via the tier4,, but its a tier 4... and shinobi in minionlane is very buggy (deflecting minions instead of enemy etc). also which characters are actually punishing pks dodge attack with a 45dmg punish if they are near a wall? cent with haymaker? afeera(lol)? glad? also in 1v2 you are meant to stall, so you dont really need to get access to her unblockables, considering they cant even external block your offence now
@@cykablyat6348 Being a pk trying to stall when both enemy's know you're completely harmless is not as viable as literally every other hero though. Her i frames are as good as warlords, and if by some miracle she gets revenge she's just as harmless cause she still has to earn the privilegeto be able to throw unblockables. And If a teammate comes to help after your amazing stall, you become twice as useless, cause now all they have to do is look at your teammate to block all of your attacks, and just counter gb. You turn into an annoying revenge feeding pile of trash as soon as the enemy has somthing else to lock on to. Bounty hunter is for when the fight is already over. Stealth is better for her t1 cause it helps hide her fragile existence from the 3rd party looking for a free kill. And her best chance at getting an execution is a dodge attack, but unlike every other hero, she has to make sure the enemy has 7 HP or less. The hero's without dodge attacks can just apply pressure with bashes to force a mistake for an execution. If you can finish the fight before anyone else knows you exist, then bounty hunter would be better to help uplift her difficulties of getting an execution cause you can still get health. She needs a mechanic where the enemy falls to their knees for 500ms to give pk a chance at an execution I think i over exaggerated the 45+ damage, but i still get infinite combo'd by afeera. And her zone cost half her stamina. If she cancels it twice, she's out. On top of all that garbage, she has reflex guard to make sure she's not too over powered
@@shaolinclips you are going on a tangent, pk has the same amount of s, so what? most characters dont have very good recovery or warlords fast hyperarmor followup to worry about, i would only use something other than bounty if i was bad, i really really dont understand "bounty hunter is for when the fight is over" this might actually be the most ignorant statement you have made, also her offence isnt nonexistant wth r u on about? they cant dodge attack your bleed cancel or peel for teammates because recovery, executions are not a make or break factor. also most characters become "useless revenge feeders" in 2v2s. also in 2v2s her strong points are extremely good peel and safe offence. also i agreed that pks external pressure is bad and needs fixing, but you for some reason ignored this and made some useless arguments. so, pk isnt useless in a 1v2, idk why you are fixated on the unblockables when they make your offence marginally better in a 1v2, you arent landing it anyway and you are going for the dagger cancel anyway, sure it might make the mixup scarier, in a 2v2 sure, but if you are going against character like medjay in a 2v2, you arent going to land those unblockables. nobushi has 0 external pressure against anyone worth their salt, probably the only character that has nothing but defence in 1v1 and shes still one of the best 4v4 characters and 2v2
I'd like to say that the non-competitive players deserve a voice more than competitor. We're the ones spending money on the game to play it still. Like he said the competitive community is small. Why should they get to make changes???
@@fkkfreeze I can I'm just saying if the game goes either way to far comp or casual it would alienate a player Basie either way. I can say that the game is moving I'm a better direction fs tho
I mean casuals will be fine with the changes. They already dont react to anything and only do reads and dont gank well. I understand why its bad for comp though with increased ganking.
too predictable that point. It's like a real fighter who constantly tries to throw out a knock out punch with 0 set ups. Fighting games in general are all about conditioning your opponents to think your doing something then "mix" it up.
@@hioxd nope, not only was it start to finish, form the beginning of the match to the end,so I should at the very least be able to get a few combos in the beginning due to me and him fighting for the first time but nope. I also did every mix up my character had, nothing worked, I faked bash, I feinted raw heavy, I let a few heavy go, i heavy faint into a random light in a completely random direction, I tried to delay some attacks to throw off timings but nope, i tried literally everything.
@@hioxd me and my friend thought he was scripting but after some testing I don’t think he was, nothing ever worked, bashes are simply far to slow for them to be useful, more specifically opener bashes.
I personally think that 400ms is the go to, as I didn't have much issue reacting to 466's and thanks to an optimal setup (PS5 + Good quality monitor), 433's wasn't an issue either. The problem (for me) is that the 300ms dodge timing gives me too much time to prepare for what comes out. In the next TG, should they bring these changes out again, they should experiment with varying levels of lower dodge entry windows, _and_ the varied bash timings as well. For example, conq having a 466ms bash, 100/200ms into the dodge. With this, reactable openers may get the desired level of buff we were looking for. (For the casual playerbase. I can't say the same for comp)
you clearly dont understand what the numbers you are talking about are since 466ms bashes are borderline unreactable on PC with a good setup, you are not reacting. Probably just dodging when you see the forward dodge.
@@normieee_that is the case with the 100 into 500s and the 300 into 400s. However, I personally (with training and live games) found that the 466s were not that difficult, although that may be due to my genetics. The heroes with 433s were hit or miss, as cent and kyoshin players couldn't get me with their 433s but LB were semi-consistently forcing me to read. 400s were a hard read, no debates. All this makes me believe that it's not the bash that's the issue, it's the dodge entry. They should test the entry changes in the next TG and see the feedback there. Whether they keep the bash timing as well, is up to them.
@@normieee_ is it? I'm going off of personal experience, as I'm sure the comp scene is as well. The difference between you and I is that I'm a textbook-definition casual who works on weekdays and plays on weekends, and so my time with the game is more limited than yours. So, thank you for your input with this video, but that didn't change what I saw with the TG. I seriously don't get why comp players of any game are nearly all the same: down-talking less experienced players who aren't on their level. We get it, you guys dedicated more time and money into this game than anyone else will, of course you're going to try and fact-check everything. But there are, and always will be, exceptions to the norm. (Not counting cheating) Maybe I am one, maybe I'm not. I know what is possible and what isn't, and this TG is sitting on the fence between those two thresholds. I found that the fence is rather small, whilst a majority of people would have found it much bigger or even smaller than I did.
@@Blurgamer17 my intention is not to downtalk you, you just dont understand what you are saying yourself. A bashes reactability is not based on its input window, that is a fact. People dont react to the input window (that is a read) they react to the orange bash itself.
I really liked when pre ccu offense was also read based. I would know someone wants to go for a light parry and I would throw a heavy and it would work. I miss having to pick and choose which moves I throw. I don't want the defense meta to be back. But I don't find what we have now to be that enjoyable to play. we have characters that will just repeat the same 2 or 3 moves over and over and over again. I'm not saying im struggling to win or I don't understand frame advantage. I just would like certain moves that are usually strong bashes to overshadow the entire moveset of a hero. I would really like if there was a way to encourage players to utilize the full moveset of a character to get the most benefit and it actually worked across all levels of play. Now one of my issues with the game, ganks, I play casually and I really do not enjoy doing ganks and I do not enjoy playing against people who gank effectively. I do not find it to be enjoyable that I parried an attack and then got punished by 4 different people. I personally would like to nerf ganks. I think it would be really nice if you were able to do multiple different actions within one defensive action. Let me give an example. Enemy A throws a heavy, Enemy 2 guardbreaks you, You eat a heavy regardless of if you counter guard break or not. i think it would be nice to be able to counter guard break and also parry at the same time. or maybe the ability to counter guard break, dodge, parry at the same time. This idea would need a lot of refinement to make sure it doesn't break something which it most likely will. But we haven't taken a core gamemechanic changing approach to making ganks less busted and annoying to play against.
From a casual on/off player since season 1, as far as I'm concerned the game should either be 100% reactable or 100% nonreactable (with a large preference towards unreactable. Save for obvious stuff like Hito's T4, large damage heavies, etc, etc. Stuff that wouldn't be normally used as openers anyway) When you fence sit, it only puts a portion of the community who can reliably react into a pretty big advantage over those that can reliably react.
it is a sort of true argument that is made fun of because its very often portrayed as the end of the world by the really bad players when in fact its just a thing that u kinda wanna avoid u know, its not game defining but it wouldnt be cool if every hero was the same.
You should not be able to react to something in order to counter it, for honor should be a read based game. That is what makes the game a high skill gap as you need knowledge of attack patterns. If everything was reactable like it used to be then you would have these unstoppable fucking parry dodge machines and it would go nowhere.
Tbh I want this bash change another change I would like to see in the TG would be lowering the dmg on CC lights CC’s kinda feel like a lazy way to shift offense and defense just make the light 13 or 14 and we can call it a day lol 😂😂
Normie if you see this, or anyone at the same skill as normie or close anyway, so 300-500 bash mixups with forward dodge attacks, that is unreactable? Really? For all of you reaction powerhouses, that seriously works against you? What's the success rate if you can think of one?
difficulty varies. Like, shinobi's probably the easiest one to differentiate from the FD heavy cause of the animation, while something like shao is harder but still possible to do consistently by top reactionists
yes they do, it involves a lot of conditioning and mental games. But there is not a single top player (top 10 players in the world that is) that will not be baited by stuff like bp neutral or gryphon neutral. Success rate varies but against reaction powerhouses the minimum rate was around 50% in dom scrims, even higher in tourneys where the pressure is on.
the important thing is that you dont get the wrong impression because you see a comp player go around in matchmaking and react to everything, or that you see a comp player in a vacuum environment like training react to everything...in the real game and a real match where both players are taking it seriously and paying attention they work just fine.
@@normieee_ gotcha, thank you for responding. I do understand many of the issues that these changes bring and such, however I still would love to see something that evens the field a little bit more, not to shallow it down, I am not saying make the average joe be able to fight nem, but even amongst the competitive players there are some that do not react as good as the top reactionists (like toet). I am not really sure what this mechanic would look like tbh, nor do I really have the experience to say something that'd make a lot of sense if not funded on knowledge I've gained from all of you top comps. I leave that to the experienced lol
@ewop1721 yeah, what I am mainly more so against is just how someone like me for example, who enjoys the competitive scene, would love to escalate on it, but can't cause I can't make that differ, I can't react to most bashes, I need to hyper focus to even block lights. I don't really stand that much of a chance just from a 1v1 aspect lol, so while yes this blanket change is not really the perfect approach, I would still like to see ubisoft trying other approaches to dealing with reactability vs unreactability. Normie's points make sense ofc, I am not going against his logic, I just want a game where I have a chance outside of my genetic build, something I can genuinely improve at and that could make a difference in my gameplay by improving it. Edit: So if these mixups with forward dodge have a reliable success rate, it's cool (I forgor to add this prior to the edit 💀)
He does? Forward heavy leads to undogeable heavy or regular light, It also leads to flip on deflect or dodge attack And on top of that it also fast flows into unblockable bulwark slash. People really want to be debating game balance and not even know what they are talking about.
@@digo3049 All of which are null and void if your opponent empty dodges which is what he will do to avoid the bash too which is why I dont understand how that is a mixup. And I am asking questions to learn, not to be told that I don't know enough about the game to ask questions.
@@hannesbornman1045 did you not watch the video or read my comment? How is any of that null and void? Flip punishes dodge attacks if they do them He can keep offense goibg by chaining into light then bulwark slash or just straight up go into bulwark slash or undogable heavy. All of these options give him frame advanatge when they hit and allow him to Keep his turn all after one dodge forward in a neutral interaction. He said players cannot react to wether or not a bash or dodge forward heavy were to come out so of course most would want to dodge and make everything “null and void” this leads to the bp controlling the fight and allows for empty dodge into gb to catch the most beneficial option being empty dodge. All of this from a single dodge forward and it being unreactable to determine if a forward heavg will hit or a bash, ( he can delay his bash too)
A comp player crying about he won't be able to win in 1v1s just by reacting on neutral offense in 100/100 cases😢 And he's doing it almost for 30 mins...
Where do I learn these deeper mechanics? I used to be able to keep up in this game but now I just can’t anymore it’s like I need to completely relearn this game I used to enjoy playing.
The bash changes are bad. We need damage reduction across the board and a complete perk/feats rework first. Also how about some new fookin maps? I'll trade all universal and weekly content for 4 months to get some new maps.
You can ask further questions below this comment and Normie will respond.
Or check the reddit thread for further details: shorturl.at/fCPZ3
Hey freeze do u know if orochis bash got any changes.
@@kyrukunorochi bash was untouched in tg according to the devstream.
Could he go into more detail on what makes gryphons forward light/bash mixup good?
It feels that for a while the devs 'fixed' a character by giving them unblockables and then once the community got tired of it...
The devs 'fixed' a character by hiving orange/blue mixups
One thing that I have always wanted to see, are bash mixups that don't rely on the undogeable property
Maybe highlight why the forward dodge change was instrumental would help the community push for more changes like that so we get more variety then legion kick variant?
When you talked about your success with Gryphons and his neutral offence you mentioned the improvement due to the enhanced dodgeforward light creating a mixup with the bash.
If I remember correctly you didnt talk about the dodge forward heavy of gryphon in particular. Im wondering if/when/how you use it from neutral in combination with the other moved accessable from forward dodge.
Tldr; Please explain gryphons neutral offence. I found it very interesting.
@crook9698 probably because it's semi fast and even if they block it you could easily get into the unblockable and undodagable mix up. Especially on out of Stam opponents.
The key thing that For Honor and its community can't seem to conceptualize (naturally, given that the game barely functioned on release) is mental stack.
At the bottom line, a ton of things in even other fighting games that are much faster than For Honor, they are reactable. Tons of things are reactable. It's just that there is always one or more options that threaten any given situation, and a human can't account for everything at the same time. That's the concept of mental stack. You're forced to make mistakes because there's too much to consider. BP's dodge forward options get mentioned this video as a good example. Chain offense/pressure is For Honor's version of blockstrings, which are also a form of creating mental stack by utilizing both a multitude of options and varying frame advantage.
For Honor has gotten to a point where they just refuse to add new moves for some reason, that instead they just make it outright impossible to react to things. There's not really anything wrong with it as long as the risk/reward skew is properly considered, but the issue is that it isn't being properly considered most of the time. Too many characters rely entirely on a single best move specifically BECAUSE the risk/reward is improperly skewed.
Seriously the main problem with For Honor is that neither the devs or the playerbase knows what basic character "tools" should be and what something "character-defining" is. It's like looking at Ken and Ryu and saying they're basically the same, they're not, despite having almost all the same stuff. It comes down to the details, which For Honor can't have because movesets are so shallow that basic character tools/weaknesses become character defining traits. It's MOBA hero design put into a fighting game, which doesn't belong. Fighting game character identities are defined by the details, not the basic tools they have access to (excluding a few gimmicks like not having a fireball in exchange for better rushdown).
The reason why more "shallow" character design works in MOBA games is because the rest of the game is so complex, which allows them to emphasize positioning/teamwork over mechanical skill, where MOBAs tend to place a majority of meaningful decision-making. Fighting game decision making is entirely about how you use your slightly different set of tools against someone else's slightly different tools, but you're always at even footing as a baseline regarding your toolkit's functionality. The reason being that in a fighting game, every 1 on 1 encounter and interaction should feel significant. Not a case of who can do what, only with some edge-case exceptions (invincible DP, midscreen poke, or delayed/slow projectile, to name a few).
A very good take on FH
This explains my issues with For Honor perfectly. Hell, that’s why Highlander is my favourite hero, despite being absolute dogshit. His move set is actually minimally interesting compared to others.
Im not reading that
@@garethbroad7713 good for you mate
This is a perfect explanation of about half my issue with this game
normalna the golem himself beaming himself directly into my ears
Until read-based offense is the de facto viable offense in FH, players with better reactions will consistently dominate the game and severely limit the pool of competitive players.
True, but besides Maybe league, I can't think of a single game where that isn't the case.
@@borisshnitkov7600sually fast reactions help to a large degree but it doesn't often make up a majority of the top player bases in other games. Usually there's quite a few older players who aren't necessarily the best at reacting.
Thats a fake excuse, first of all, reactions are trainable, my average in 190, yet I worked to react on some stuff that have 160ms reaction window, and even without that, toetmined fkn went into the final in a duel tournament, against 7 reaction players, if he can do it, that means everyone can
@@yannstehly1087 Reactions are trainable but the limit to them so-to-speak is biological.
Why For Honor need to be read base entirely? Every fighting game is so there is nothing wrong on being different. They are just focusing on competitive and leaving behind all what made this game unique a fun to play.
It's funny to think the entire player base at one point stumbled around when learning the game since the beginning since we've never had a good tutorial.
Considering how important frame advantage is AND how the developers speak about frame advantage in the Warrior's Den streams it is frustrating there is no training mode tool to highlight move start-up and recovery. Other fighting games that rely upon or simply acknowledge how frame advantage affects their game includes training tools that display the frame data graphically so players can learn what they can and can't do depending on what they or their opponent has done. Mortal Kombat 11 had a really impressive (to me) frame advantage display changing the color of both you and the opponent to red and green showing when you can and cannot act in addition to displaying the frame/damage in plain text. The Tekken series has an option just like this. For Honor needs this as well, a training mode overlay, not just some limited training stage designed to just give you an idea and let you try to figure it out on your own.
One of the best and interesting discussions of balance I have heard. Thanks to both of you!
I’ve always felt like if players thought of For Honor as a Fighting game (the genre), the community would be so much better. Labbing characters and interactions is unheard of for the casual playerbase despite being essentials in your average fighting game.
Of course to encourage this I’d say Ubisoft really needs some updates to their training arena. The ability to mimic latency, more custom move pool options, the ability for the training bot to FEINT, etc
Honestly bro all my friends literally have no idea bout any of this.
Everything Normie said makes sense and I agree with.
Big yes on this game needing to be morphed around 4v4 also.
I’m glad for the bash change. Most of us couldn’t react anyway so it doesn’t really effect us but it give us something to leverage against the reaction players
Couldn't agree more about the definition of reactability across the board, often times you'll find people reacting to animation or movement counting as reacting, which it really isn't because they aren't reacting the attack, they're still making a read on movement, and there are those who say something is near unreactable jsut because they can't react to it and blame those who can. It's absurd. I'm happy with changes levelling the playing field a bit, but this isn't how it should be. The comp scene has no valid arguments currently, they judt dont like having to make a read. I also don't like them punishing people who can react
Huge extra downside of this, is that characters without a bash, are only going to get worse. I don't want every character to have a bash, they're already blending together by this point especially with the lb testing ground
i agree with that not everyone should have a bash but unfortunately they need it, since we are getting to the point of not just a bad matchup but basically if you pick "x" character against "y" you lose for example Centurion vs Any character with a dodge cancel, at least in 4v4 you just simply can't close the gap if the dodge cancel character wants to keep distance it's ridiculous they have complete control of the flow of the fight and can move so freely it's really frustrating.
@@carlosescamilla5260 cent is currently one of the better heroes and can punish external dodge cancels pretty well if you know what youre doing 😃👍
@@normieee_ really? i need to improve then
@@carlosescamilla5260its not easy and comfortable like other chars, but its very doable.
@@carlosescamilla5260 with these tg changes, hero's are going to need bashes if they don't have one to compete. At the moment, hero's without bashes from neutral are perfectly fine and strong picks, zerk is a fine example. Even those with a sub par bash like cent still have the option of bashing, if you give him a buff, or if these changes go through, he outclasses every other bash and those without a bash or dodge changes, whichever way you look at it this has to be done very carefully, like what didn't happen with the dodge attack changes. Give one thing to one side, the other gets beaten, give it to both, everything gets stale, and I do not want dodge recovs on every character as much as I don't want a bash on every character. So cent and others like him can be left where he is rn save causing more problems.
When reads do become the de facto thing that all competitive play is based around, movesets NEED to become more complex for that read based gameplay to become more interesting.
I’d just like to welcome all the reaction monsters to for honor, this is how the game has been for most of us forever, enjoy
I do agree with the feed back part, alot of people beat a character and think they can react to it eveytime, not realizing maybe the player they went up against was very predictable and they knew the bash was coming subconsciously, because they picked up on their opponents habits and attack patterns. Or sometimes its dumb luck.
On top of this most players dont practice their reactions, dont practice dealing with certain offense, and just play mindlessly, there only practice is when they just play online. the comp players practice, and skrim with eachother, so its no surprise they are better then you. They get punished for being good and learning the game, meanwhile the average player gets rewarded for not doing anything but complaning? When i encounter a player better then me, i learn, i try to adapt, learn their habits to counter their playstle, but sometimes you can still lose and thats fine, you cant win all of them.
my mouth watered at the 30 min freeze video
As someone who can't react who knows mostly people who also can't react little to nothing changed for us, barely even noticed that much of a change.
The bash changes are still the way to go. It will be healthier for the game to have 300-500 unreactable bashes across the board.
I’m pretty sure 400ms is the fastest dodge forward in the game currently 300ms might be a bit much
Edit: oops just realized you meant the delay ability of dodge forward bashes not the actual speed that f the bash itself
Freeze I love your introduction because honestly it's like, welcome to the club reactards. Good vid thumbs up.
I mean a blanket change reducing the damage of neutral offence sounds fine. Especially being only a numbers change.
I’d love to have my own opinion on it, but unfortunately ‘low activity’ is a problem
I found the video very informative, learning a lot from normie and loving the ideas presented.
The education issue of frame advantage and the mysterious budget of developers stood out to me.
We should pay attention to other small details mentioned, such as feats.
I strongly believe that heroes, both new and old, can benefit from more imaginative feats.
This has the potential to address the issue of repetitive and boring gameplay.
By introducing animated feats instead of chains, heroes can have unique identities.
Fun feats can justify standardized chains.
Moreover, implementing this early could be a cost-effective alternative to full mocap production.
This is a very good video, so many interesting points broken down on the state of the game. Fantastic choice of guest freeze, like always your making the best content, I just hope ubi tuned in for this.
This is the 1st video in years, from any content creator, that has actually talked about the real issue of the state of For Honor. This is the 1st video that has people discussing what actually matters.
As an honestly “high level” “casual” player I’m just gonna throw this out there. Imo the game is the funnest it’s ever been. Coming from a player who’s been playing since launch the game is in the best place it’s ever been.
''waah waah i cannot react anymore, i'm forced to play like everyone else, bad change!!!''
Enhanced Light on all heroes would be nice. Or atleast every Offense based hero.
Okay but that's a different discussion.
I don’t understand the obsession with making offense unreactable (especially in neutral). To start, mix ups do not need to be unreactable to be effective. Let’s use a very common example: a “react Andy” is turtling and only trying to parry lights from neutral, but instead of throwing a light, the other guy throws a heavy and hits the guy. Even though both options were reactable, Andy still had to make a read if he wanted a punish instead of just taking chip damage. I’ve been in this scenario many times with me being the Andy before the CCU and being the other guy after on old gen console.
Making attacks faster only widens the skill gap between players because only the ones with cracked reactions will be able to fight against it without making reads that are not in their favor.
If we focused more on having each individual option be reactable, but add more commitment to defense like increasing feint timings so characters like glad can’t feint before getting hit in a situation similar to the first scenario, the skill level wouldn’t be just tied to your reaction time.
TL;DR: focusing on reactable mix ups is better than trying to make offense unreactable
Regarding the minute 15:00. I genuinely don't understand why would it be a bad thing (Button mashing as it was called) if every unblockable, feint and bashes became unreactable. 99.9% of the playerbase already play an unreactable game and the characters don't feel like they blend together because of unreactability, so that wouldn't be an issue. Also character identity shouldn't be tied to reactability. If some moves should be reactable, then they should be not just for tournament players, but for most people then.
Should some offense moves be reactable then? Who will this partial reactability benefit? So making reads are being called "button mashing" now? So technnical play is staring and reacting?
Considering you wont have instant bashes with 100ms dodge startup, you will have some time to see the dodge and do the read accordingly. It's not like it's buffing WL's bash to be 100ms into dodge and 400ms of animation...
Speeding up bashes can be done by hiding indicators and animation by a frame or two and we will still have the same total timing with the same frame advantage rules but with actual unreactable attacks against anyone. Then we have no problem with ganks being harder to interrupt or being interrupted more frequently in teamfights.
If neutral offense becomes riskier, then lower all the damages and keep the chain offense doing more damage than neutral offense. Then you'll have low risk, low rewards moves and so on. There are solutions to everything.
ur misunderstanding the explanation. You seeing an unblockable heavy and making a read on countering it is NOT buttonmashing, however if they choose to speed up everything in order to make it "truly unreactable" you will not have time to see a heavy and make a read on it, you will be making a read on the attack being a heavy or coming at you in the first place (this is buttonmashing). Now imagine everything is like that, you are basically just gambling. You would not enjoy having to throw a dice for a 1 out of 6 chance to counter something for every single move in the game.
Technical play is decidening when to react, when to use which offense, when to read, be calculated, not pressing bottons just with the hope that it lands
@@yannstehly1087 precisely, this is what we want. Not just playing slots with cool looks.
inb4 they make everyones bashes 433, but leave nobu kick at 566
I really appreciate the reasonable approach here and especially the explanation of reactions. So many people don't really understand how reactions work in the game.
That being said I'm confused by normies analysis. He says that the bash changes would be very good for 1v1 but he also says that it would de-emphasize chain offense and ruin frame advantage and interrupts. If they went with 466ms legion kick style bash for everyone what would be the issue? I don't think 33 ms changes much about frame advantage or interrupts. The bashes would have 300ms startup minimum, you can't really interrupt with that.
Yes, unreactable neutral bash would make empty dodges + gb threatening at all levels. But I don't think it's OP because you can easily stuff it with a light or neutral gb. It's slower, more vulnerable, less damaging than afeera neutral bash so I don't think that's a great comparison. Same thing with ganks. It would still initiated with a mixup with faster bashes it's just a bit more effective because neutral dodge + gb is threatening. So then why not increase revenge gain as a band aid fix?
4:30 someone needed to say this. most people in that subreddit think they are actual pros, its actually hilarious
It’s one of the most frustrating parts of the community. If you didn’t play the game and only talked to the community you’d assume everyone is a reaction god that parries every attack and dodges every bash
They can nerf ganks by making revenge scary again. Make it to where when you activate revenge, all enemies around get a "fear" debuff. Making them not able to run or roll away. Like nuxias feat. Up the damage value of revenge x1.5. Then people would be a little more cautious when ganking.
This makes me remember launch day revenge, which I believe gave a higher damage boost to begin with, on pre CCU damage numbers with some attacks being far too strong even above that level, like Warden's double light after a shoulder bash doing 30 damage. Then you also had gear stats at the time that gave you a percentage boost to things like revenge gain and revenge damage, and revenge was constantly filled up simply by being hit or blocking, slightly so but it was possible to gain revenge in a simple 1v1 anyway. Once got hit by an Orochi zone for like 60 damage, it was nuts lmao
Also some Raiders would heavy you for more than 100 damage, it was a silly time. Maybe you played back then too and you remember it as well. Players like Setback (I believe that was his name) were called incredibly anti-ganking pros but essentially he just had good gear and would spam his PK zone attack during ganks and 3 hit kill any player standing in his general vicinity.
dis hoyt volker normal prophet guy speaking straight facts take my hugest biggest upvote men ✞ CHRIST IS KING ✞
Im more of Tech (not a reaction gamer more of read based and i prefer offense over defense)player with a 2.61 Kd and a faced some guys that has good reaction and its boring to fight these kind of guys because even Lights are hard to land(its funny to get them with a raw Heavy opener😂) i truly liked this change i iust wish all bashes were in 100Ms into the forward dodge.
Normie makes a lot of sense to this casual.
Just make all the forward static bash 300-500ms delayability with 400 or 433ms speed. All players will have to make a read if it's a bash or an empty dodge. Than make all heroes have a fast forward enhanced light/heavy attack, or like the TG's LB forward dodge with no recovery so you can do a neutral light or heavy to catch empty dodges, and be able to parry interrupt lights when you empty dodge.
Now for offense, you can "bash/dodge forward attacks/empty dodge/empty dodge than parry" to catch "no reaction/empty dodge/dodge attacks/light interrupt". That's now a read-based offense and defense. Also make all of the forward bash don't chain into anything and be dodge-cancel-able (Tiandi and Yanhu) and be punish with a GB if missed or make all of them only chain into top light (like Shaolin) and neutral heavy.
Haven't watched it yet, but Imma just say I love the idea of these changes. I hope to see people push for these changes.
I can't entirely agree with the first part when Normie talk about who is comp and who isn't. It would be best if you distinguished top-level from comp players. Because top-level players are comp, not every comp player is at the "top" because the nature of the top is that someone needs to be on the bottom in any comp scene.
Amazing video as usual!
I think it's great to get this insight into a somewhat representative viewpoint, so thank you for that. But I'm walking away from this video with a big question. Even if we all agree the TG changes are bad, Normie blatently shows the issue of reactability is something that needs fixing. How does he propose to fix it?
Some reaction players don't want the tg changes because they then can't react anymore. That's not an argument against the TG changes, fully agree. Normie showed how the TG changes would bring different problems with them. Fully agree. But the changes would fix (at least maybe in part) the reaction differences present in the community.
15:20 illustrates the problem and Freeze tried to make the point there. For many players chain offense is irrelevant, because they already can't react to neutral. And the point Normie makes after that doesn't really help. Good onboarding is important, game knowledge of - for example - frame advantage is invaluable, no doubt. But we're not talking extremes here. For Honor is STILL trying to walk the line of reactablilty, which is impossible when reaction times differ even by a small margin. We can compare potato brains failing to interrupt a Warlord against someone who reacts to storming tap in training, but that's not helpful.
Even just using the example of neutral lights: There exists a portion of players who can't parry a neutral light when anticipating one. There exists a portion of players who can. There exists a portion of players who sometimes can. Same with bashes. Same with some unblockable feints. This is a problem that needs fixing. Just like onboarding. Just like ganking. Just like so many other problems this game still has.
[Small tangent - TL;DR afterwards] Having the basic fight interaction be this divisive is a big problem. Disregarding any moveset, any chain, any special moves, any bashes what we're left with are GBs, light and heavy attacks (maybe even bashes). The basic framework on which a hero's moveset builds upon. Some core mechanic that is invariable across the entire cast. This is what new players interact with at first. This is what's at the core of the combat system. This core system should not be something that some portion of players can counter way easier than another. At it seems that the comp community - or at least normie - agrees. Neutral offense being completely unreactable is bad because it leads to people disregarding 80% of a moveset. To end the tangent: So how can we fix this reactibility issue - the one the TG aims to fix - without worsening the experience for everyone? Going 180° and fully commiting to reactable neutral offense can't be the answer, as heaps of discussions around the turtle meta have shown.
TL;DR: The TG was meant to even out reactability across the playerbase. The TG somewhat achieves that. Normie makes a good case that the TG changes have problematic consequences. So let's not push TG changes to live. Okay, so how CAN we fix the reactability issue while minimizing issues regarding ganking, frame advantage etc.?
Advocating for the satus quo has a sour taste if you benefit from the status quo, no matter how good of an argument you make.
Hi mr.Freeze... its ok you dont need to say hi back. FeelsBadMan
Good morning
6:11-7:45 Actual Gold
Word !
Bring this man to the table
Im already excited!
also lot of people dont know where they can give feedback
reddit is the place to give feedback, the issue is that 90% of the feedback there is trash tier or morons wanting what benefits them instead of what benefits the game.
First, I just want to say that the button mashing argument is like, the exact same thing people were saying about the CCU hidden indicator changes, and it's just as dumb now as it was then. Your opponent being able to throw something that you can't punish on reaction is good, actually. If you don't believe me, look at the majority of the player base not being able to react to most 300/500 bashes on live, right now, with no signs of mindless button mashing or whatever winning out against people who actually know how to play.
Second, I think there's a pretty obvious solution to the only real argument against these changes, the interrupt/FA/pacing concerns. Just increase the time from dodge -> bash by the amount you decrease the bash animation length. So for example a 500ms 300/500 bash like we have now would instead be a 400ms 400/600 bash, or a 433ms 366/566 bash, etc. That way the amount of time it takes to hit someone with a bash from neutral is the exact same (between 800 and 1000ms), but the part you can react to is still shortened to the extend it can't be reaction dodged. Plus, this would reinforce the idea of seeing a forward dodge and making a read, as the window to make a read is lengthened and the actual bash animation is so fast that you must dodge on read.
common misunderstanding due to me not having time to explain without the video being 1hr, ill copy paste what ive said to the others who said this: "You seeing an unblockable heavy and making a read on countering it is NOT buttonmashing, however if they choose to speed up everything in order to make it "truly unreactable" you will not have time to see a heavy and make a read on it, you will be making a read on the attack being a heavy or coming at you in the first place (this is buttonmashing). Now imagine everything is like that, you are basically just gambling. You would not enjoy having to throw a dice for a 1 out of 6 chance to counter something for every single move in the game."
@@normieee_ But that isn't at all what these changes do. Even with the strictest of the new timings, a 300/500 bash would give you 700ms from the opponent's forward dodge to make a read. Heck, if it takes you an entire 400ms to realize they're dodging that's still 300ms to decide whether you want to dodge or not. As the intended function of this mixup is to force a read on a forward dodge, this works completely fine. And that's not even considering the possibility I mentioned of making bashes start later into the dodge to keep the exact same timing we have right now as far as making a read is concerned.
@@GreekGeek-dh2kh my issue is moreso that its way too strong for what it is, not what its doing, if it was between u eating the bash light and a other 15 dmg attack it would be alright. 14/24 is however not fine at all.
@@normieee_ The argument that these bashes will be too strong after being sped up ignores the fact that they already work like this for most people. All this would do is even the playing field and make everyone face these mixups as intended, preventing people with insane reaction times from circumventing the whole interaction currently do
@@GreekGeek-dh2kh and becayse they already work like that for u theyre not too strong??? problem is that they didnt address this earlier and only now when ppl are making a big fuss about it is it brought up, it shouldnt be that strong against reaction players or read players
The bash changes are good. If a neutral GB doesn’t have any pressure in mixup with neutral bash, your bash is too slow.
They all need the 100ms startups.
Honestly the dodge attack changes are what completely killed any defense in the game.
And offense is way to fucking safe.
Dodge recoveries and being able to chain after a whiffed bash on offense etc is the reason offense is so safe and you have like a 1/5 chance of maybe making the right read and punishing offense.
Honestly we just need to admit Orochi is probably one of the best characters in the game because he’s high damage, low risk offense and defense.
He really does have an “unpunishable” bash despite Freeze being defending he didn’t back in the day.
You’re not punishing the bash if he can safely chain into a 32+ damage heavy that makes it safe from GB.
You need a dedicated dodge attack, and you can’t go for a GB or follow up light parry without risking too much damage.
It’s just too many reads to make in a small time window to practically punish the bash.
Tiandi and Zanhu also have safe risk rewards on their bashes.
Having good hitboxes on your dodges attacks you can external people with and chains and recovery cancels on those dodge attacks is essentially what makes up good defense now.
And good offense consists of almost constant frame advantages, almost unpunished offensive or isn’t reliably and consistently punished with a favorable risk reward.
Examples are level charged bashes you can just front into a GB, you don’t actually have to commit and only risk maybe eating a light, with potentially high damage and seeing how the opponent will react while conditioning them.
As opposed to Shinobi, who has terrible hitboxes and damage and is consistently punished by GB all offensive bashes, openers, and dodge attacks.
Shinobi still manages to have the worst damage per second and risk reward ratio in the game having to make the most offensive reads to kill, and is still overrated by his ganking ability.
20 damage heavy finishers, and risking consistent GB punishes for 14 damage offense.
They need to make offense consistently punishable and have a good risk reward.
Risk reward also needs to be balanced for defense, and that’s why the dodge attack changes were probably the worst change we’ve seen in the last few years because the whole point is to reduce risk against offense and ganking, and now it’s one of the most punishing things you can do.
I mean just plain external dodging is now the best defense if you don’t have good hitboxes and recovery on your dodge attacks etc.
For honor has a fundamental problem. The limited moveset and attack option Design was usually meant for reactibility. Unreactible offense paired with simple attack patterns feels bad for the player, since it just feels like buttonmashing instead of a contest of concentration and wits, while the concept of parrypunishes and dodge-attacks for dmg makes reactible offense as a concept impossible. Instead, they could just make it about mental overload though. This could be achieved by making every attack reactible again for everybody, while at the same time giving the attacker continuing frame advantage and infinite attack chains with free choice between bashes, unblockables lights and heavies until the character goes out of stamina. At the same time, change the parry and dodge mechanics, so that all you get from a parry or successful dodge, is the initiative to start your own offense. That way the only way to deal dmg is to attack until the opponent makes a mistake - which he will, because at some point the brain will get overwhelmed by the continuing and ever changing attack patterns. Now increase dmg output across the board, so that wrong reactions get punished severely, and you have a balanced fighting game, where players can literally exchange blows that do not feel like button mashing, and still have an offensive back and forth.
Yoo, the fact that new players do not know what frame advantage is so true!
Can someone explain how BP's neutral bash and dodge forward heavy work as a mixup?
So if i dodge forward as BP, you have no way to react to wether im gonna empty dodge or dodge forward heavy or do a bash, this usually nets some kind of response even if the opponent can react to stuff, since 1 they have to make a read. based only on forward movement which you cant
Do we even need 3 guard directions at this point? 😅
@normieee_ You forgot to say Nobushi's offense is completely reactable, not just Conquerors.
Everybody has run this game into the ground.
Are you aware of the problem with orders not showing progress correctly?
Although i understand the point of the changes, i would not like a 100% read-based For Honor. I like the read/reaction ratio as it is now and i am fully OK if there are high-skilled re-action monsters out there.
21:30 what in the noob moments 🤣💀
I agree with needing to get hit with multiple options!
There are characters in the game that dont even have bashes! Let alone neutral bashes
Honestly bashes feel good around 466ms. You can still react just it's slightly harder to, I do agree that 300ms to 500ms dodge input is the way to go.
17:45 yeah. So why not make the new 300/400 bashes 400/400, then they have the same implications for interrupts as when they were 300/500, but aren't reactible anymore. Maybe even 500/300, then ppl will have plenty time to mentally prepare their read based response.
I know this isn't the topic of the Video.
But I really really struggle to fight Warmongerer (Jorm player). Does anyone have tips or advice on how to help read her attacks or what I can do for the best chance?
With my rep 32jorm I really only get results by playing as belligerent as I can, say the enemy has less than a bar left I just stay still for just over a second then zone, almost always interrupts something. I also ALWAYS feint the slam bash to zone or right heavy everytime I go for it until late round 2, from then on i throw 2 through then feint one repeat, again strangley works more than one would expect. Some scumbag tech is to use the chest besting emote with the red plasma effect then gb or zone out of it whenever you sense very high tension (say 2 wins each and they have a little less health), last little jorm tech I do is to just sorta learn good staggr pressure (neutral light, neutral light, neutral heavy, all same side) it ruins some people quite often, I'm not he worlds greatest and I'm don't really get competitive when I play anymore but these work in ps4 mid diamond
Tl;Dr play like a bully, never let up, and play wack as hell
Also hammer slam into a buffered forward dodge heavy is comedically effective
As much as I like these changes, I feel like Conq got nerfed hard with his changes. Worse yet they didn’t quite remove the 100ms bash start up as they gave it to Warden.
conq is only getting buffed by this TG, and not by a small amount, i can easily see him move up to low A tier in dom.
@@normieee_How exactly is a 34ms buff in exchange for a 200ms input nerf good? My experience in the testing grounds was terrible. Half the time my bashes were getting interrupted and they were getting doeged more often than in live.
@@FrappyLee at your level nothing changes positively ofcourse since the bash is already unreactable. You are suffering from what i said in the video, the change of pacing that will affect everyone at every level of play. However at high level where ur bash is reactable that 33ms is what makes the difference between ur bash being useless and an amazing tool.
@@normieee_ I think my problem is I’m so used to his bash being quick at the 100ms input so it just feels awful atm. I’d need to play a few more games but personally his forward dodge bash feels worse.
@@volulra2008 most likely yes
While I agree with his premise and the peripherals, it just comes off as whining. If you are a "COMP" player you should be adjust.
Where did you find that enemy team in the beginning? That pk and zhanhu ate so many neutral heavies lol
6:45 But a console player complaining they can't react to lights anymore is not the same as a reaction demon complaining he cant react to the bashes anymore. Lights are meant to be blockable on reaction without requiring a read. The bashes that were buffed were not meant to be dodgeable on reaction without requiring a read. I don't think this is a fair comparison.
PC playerbase: Wahhh this is hard and unreactable now!!
Console playerbase: First time?
Seriously, unless you (and your opponents) live under a radio tower or in a major city, even lights are unreactable for console
What if they raise the fps for console, reduce the damage from neutral options and raise the amount of revenge gained from bashes?
Making 1v1’s better but at what cost?
Meh. I can react some bashes,
My problem only with cent.
His bash feels very slow.
Gladiators is the only hero left that has a neutral bash and you can't GB punish It's so annoying🤣😭
I like the no guard on Dodge. Reflex hero exist never understood whats the big deal.
Feedback issues for comp players - then speak up to ubi, make yourself heard via any means you deem necessary (like this vid with freeze for one). It's not our (casuals) problem that you aint heard.
Reactability misunderstood - in a way, hard to come up with some blanket decision to smooth it out for both slowpokes (me) who barely block 500ms lights (and parry them only on read) and reaction monsters who can grab a shuteye mid your chain and dodge or parry 433ms moves. But what was said above aplies here - it's not their (reactors) problems that slowpokes was born slow, world aint fair, we'll have to suck it up, just give and polish some tools (working tools mind you) for slowpokes to compensate for where they lack (hell if i know what form it can take aside from allguards or sifu/HS).
Cant ship it live as is and need some additional stuff for defence or ganking changes - well yeah that's one way of looking at it, but on the other hand - if ppl will suffer through this for a season it will generate enough whining and complains to be more precise and generalised on what should they implement alongside with this change, tg time would not generate enough of feedback for it.
19:03 this alone is probably the main problem i have with all this TG fuss. If the very in-game tutorial fails to explain the basics of the game, what kind of feedback are you expecting? How do you even elaborate the feedback? Are we just taking for granted that some things are common knowledge after 7 years? Cause that's not how it works, not in this game at least...
As much as i actually agree with most points (as someone who liked the tg and has played at an amateur comp level atleast) the point he's trying to make about nobody liking a completely unreactable game is just not true.
Look at mortal kombat, street fighter, tekken and so on. 99% of offense is unreatable and you have to win making reads on defense more than offense, and these are some of the most competitive fighters in the world. YES: Im aware for honor is not a traditional fighter. But lets face the facts, it borrows more from this genre than say a shooter BR.
Im a strong beliver you can make bashes faster as long as things like stam drain and gb vaunrability is looked over in the same feel swoop. Normie is 100% right that the in chain is where things should get spicy. But how are you gonna do something like this for a hero like warlord or shuggo?? With their current movesets all they have in 1sie is frame advantage. Warlord on top of that got his bash that he can work with IF ppl dont react, and shugo have (very) reactable unblockables
My question to normie would be how to make these heroes work without putting alot of effort and time into reworking said heroes, if we dont speed up bashes from neutral for them?
I don't think anyone would have the biggest problem with these particular changes if every hero had a neutral bash in the first place. But that is also something we try to avoid. Pretty much everyone can agree that we don't want a copy and paste for every character. As a comp and veteran Nuxia player that can react to bashes, even I know for fact that if this change was implemented, it will only encourage repetitive fights that will feel no difference from the last.
I was thinking about something like the point he made for bp but for nobushi.
Would not it be better if instead of giving her an unblockableas many suggest , they where to give her the ability to softfaint the kick into a tracking side winder? Meany even with a bit of hyper armour , just to trade if the faint is so slow the enemy could simply dodge attack it on reaction of the kick.
Same thing could be done for most of character fairly easy. They alredy have the animation they need in most case.
first of all they should make the kick not be 566 thou, but as Nutella has put in his essay about a nobu rework, top UB side undodgeables would be pretty nice
@@nuclearnuc2516 we all know it slow, i was thinking of a way to make it valid in a different way.
You can fix most character by " uub + faster bash". It's just boring
@@nuclearnuc2516 can you link me the essay you talk to? I can't find it and I'm curious. You know, talking about nobu is my guilty plasure
I still think heavys should be between 30 to 40 instead of 20 to 30 but just increase health seriously why does nobody talk about just increasing health for everybody instead of an average of 130 go to 190, a tank would have 200 or above, right now its 130/30 = 4.3 for heavy and 130/12 = 10.8 for lights but at 190 it would be 190/40 = 4.75 and 190/12 = 15.8 and then neutral would be okay, if we reduce damage again we have to change the value of multiple attack of 40+ heroes with health is just one value. healing feats have to change a bit.
i just came back after years off and it feels like 90% of the game is just bashes and dodges...i miss the old slower play style with more parries and actually being able to tell where an attack is coming from
I want them to bring back revenge builds or buff revenge gain. Also PK needs a serious buff with her perks, feats, external pressure, and overall damage 💔
i mean the only problem pk has is her external pressure, dmg is pretty good, perks are not heavy perks, which is fine, feats arent fury+fire flask or some other bs like caltrops, but they arent really weak either
@@cykablyat6348 naa they're definitely weak, you have to get to t3 and 4 to get anything useful and you can only use them once each cause of the cooldowns. And not one of her perks/feats lets her heal/shield midfight like most of the other hero's. She's the only hero that can be beaten without the opponent dodging or parrying. Her 18 dmg dodge attack that ends her chain gets punished for 45+ if she dares to fight by a wall. And if she's fighting 2 people her 18 dmg dodge attack becomes 7 dmg cause if you take the time to add bleed to it, you get hit with a heavy. But you have add bleed cause she has zero unblockables without it.
@@shaolinclips she has bounty hunter as a tier1, which is one of the best tier 1's, her tier 2 feats are pretty mid i guess and tier 3 crossbow is ok and fear is good, so her feats are on the average if not above, dodge attack has really good recovery which you arent taking into account and most of the cast dont even have the option to not get punished by a heavy. also "ends her chain" is not wrong, but could be misunderstood, she has frame advantage on almost everything except l maybe the second attack of zone? so she can keep offence going after "ending" her chains, this is really good and even better considering enhanced lights if enemy is bleeding. Also you dont get much hp at all if you have the feat that lets you get 1hp from a minion, so i dont really understand that one, also would rather have bounty hunter than that feat, i guess shinobi can get a lot of hp from minions via the tier4,, but its a tier 4... and shinobi in minionlane is very buggy (deflecting minions instead of enemy etc). also which characters are actually punishing pks dodge attack with a 45dmg punish if they are near a wall? cent with haymaker? afeera(lol)? glad? also in 1v2 you are meant to stall, so you dont really need to get access to her unblockables, considering they cant even external block your offence now
@@cykablyat6348 Being a pk trying to stall when both enemy's know you're completely harmless is not as viable as literally every other hero though. Her i frames are as good as warlords, and if by some miracle she gets revenge she's just as harmless cause she still has to earn the privilegeto be able to throw unblockables.
And If a teammate comes to help after your amazing stall, you become twice as useless, cause now all they have to do is look at your teammate to block all of your attacks, and just counter gb. You turn into an annoying revenge feeding pile of trash as soon as the enemy has somthing else to lock on to.
Bounty hunter is for when the fight is already over. Stealth is better for her t1 cause it helps hide her fragile existence from the 3rd party looking for a free kill.
And her best chance at getting an execution is a dodge attack, but unlike every other hero, she has to make sure the enemy has 7 HP or less. The hero's without dodge attacks can just apply pressure with bashes to force a mistake for an execution. If you can finish the fight before anyone else knows you exist, then bounty hunter would be better to help uplift her difficulties of getting an execution cause you can still get health. She needs a mechanic where the enemy falls to their knees for 500ms to give pk a chance at an execution
I think i over exaggerated the 45+ damage, but i still get infinite combo'd by afeera.
And her zone cost half her stamina. If she cancels it twice, she's out. On top of all that garbage, she has reflex guard to make sure she's not too over powered
@@shaolinclips you are going on a tangent, pk has the same amount of s, so what? most characters dont have very good recovery or warlords fast hyperarmor followup to worry about, i would only use something other than bounty if i was bad, i really really dont understand "bounty hunter is for when the fight is over" this might actually be the most ignorant statement you have made,
also her offence isnt nonexistant wth r u on about? they cant dodge attack your bleed cancel or peel for teammates because recovery, executions are not a make or break factor. also most characters become "useless revenge feeders" in 2v2s. also in 2v2s her strong points are extremely good peel and safe offence. also i agreed that pks external pressure is bad and needs fixing, but you for some reason ignored this and made some useless arguments.
so, pk isnt useless in a 1v2, idk why you are fixated on the unblockables when they make your offence marginally better in a 1v2, you arent landing it anyway and you are going for the dagger cancel anyway, sure it might make the mixup scarier, in a 2v2 sure, but if you are going against character like medjay in a 2v2, you arent going to land those unblockables. nobushi has 0 external pressure against anyone worth their salt, probably the only character that has nothing but defence in 1v1 and shes still one of the best 4v4 characters and 2v2
as an outside observer if bashes are unreactable doesnt that make bash classes better?
There's no bash class but characters with the legion kick variety of opener bashes will op especially in ganking situations.
I'd like to say that the non-competitive players deserve a voice more than competitor. We're the ones spending money on the game to play it still. Like he said the competitive community is small. Why should they get to make changes???
You cant think of a single reason?
@@fkkfreeze I can I'm just saying if the game goes either way to far comp or casual it would alienate a player Basie either way. I can say that the game is moving I'm a better direction fs tho
This didn't feel very coherent, he kept making 1 point then going on tangents. I think this could all be cut down to 5-10 minutes.
I mean casuals will be fine with the changes. They already dont react to anything and only do reads and dont gank well.
I understand why its bad for comp though with increased ganking.
So if it doesn't matter at casual level and comp hates it then should it never get released.
The last game I played, literally all of my bashes were dodged and most of lights were parryed I tried all of my options nothing worked
too predictable that point. It's like a real fighter who constantly tries to throw out a knock out punch with 0 set ups. Fighting games in general are all about conditioning your opponents to think your doing something then "mix" it up.
@@hioxd nope, not only was it start to finish, form the beginning of the match to the end,so I should at the very least be able to get a few combos in the beginning due to me and him fighting for the first time but nope. I also did every mix up my character had, nothing worked, I faked bash, I feinted raw heavy, I let a few heavy go, i heavy faint into a random light in a completely random direction, I tried to delay some attacks to throw off timings but nope, i tried literally everything.
@@hioxd me and my friend thought he was scripting but after some testing I don’t think he was, nothing ever worked, bashes are simply far to slow for them to be useful, more specifically opener bashes.
@@hioxd the guy I was fighting was also playing pretty passive so if I waited for him to attack me, the game would just go on for hours.
I personally think that 400ms is the go to, as I didn't have much issue reacting to 466's and thanks to an optimal setup (PS5 + Good quality monitor), 433's wasn't an issue either.
The problem (for me) is that the 300ms dodge timing gives me too much time to prepare for what comes out. In the next TG, should they bring these changes out again, they should experiment with varying levels of lower dodge entry windows, _and_ the varied bash timings as well. For example, conq having a 466ms bash, 100/200ms into the dodge. With this, reactable openers may get the desired level of buff we were looking for. (For the casual playerbase. I can't say the same for comp)
you clearly dont understand what the numbers you are talking about are since 466ms bashes are borderline unreactable on PC with a good setup, you are not reacting. Probably just dodging when you see the forward dodge.
@@normieee_that is the case with the 100 into 500s and the 300 into 400s. However, I personally (with training and live games) found that the 466s were not that difficult, although that may be due to my genetics.
The heroes with 433s were hit or miss, as cent and kyoshin players couldn't get me with their 433s but LB were semi-consistently forcing me to read. 400s were a hard read, no debates. All this makes me believe that it's not the bash that's the issue, it's the dodge entry.
They should test the entry changes in the next TG and see the feedback there. Whether they keep the bash timing as well, is up to them.
@@Blurgamer17 clueless chatting.
@@normieee_ is it? I'm going off of personal experience, as I'm sure the comp scene is as well. The difference between you and I is that I'm a textbook-definition casual who works on weekdays and plays on weekends, and so my time with the game is more limited than yours. So, thank you for your input with this video, but that didn't change what I saw with the TG.
I seriously don't get why comp players of any game are nearly all the same: down-talking less experienced players who aren't on their level. We get it, you guys dedicated more time and money into this game than anyone else will, of course you're going to try and fact-check everything. But there are, and always will be, exceptions to the norm. (Not counting cheating)
Maybe I am one, maybe I'm not. I know what is possible and what isn't, and this TG is sitting on the fence between those two thresholds. I found that the fence is rather small, whilst a majority of people would have found it much bigger or even smaller than I did.
@@Blurgamer17 my intention is not to downtalk you, you just dont understand what you are saying yourself. A bashes reactability is not based on its input window, that is a fact. People dont react to the input window (that is a read) they react to the orange bash itself.
bruh what is this gameplay tho, this some 1% winrate lobby or some shit haha
Pff I could probably beat this Normie guy with a guitar hero controller wired to a toaster, good video
I really liked when pre ccu offense was also read based. I would know someone wants to go for a light parry and I would throw a heavy and it would work. I miss having to pick and choose which moves I throw. I don't want the defense meta to be back. But I don't find what we have now to be that enjoyable to play. we have characters that will just repeat the same 2 or 3 moves over and over and over again. I'm not saying im struggling to win or I don't understand frame advantage. I just would like certain moves that are usually strong bashes to overshadow the entire moveset of a hero. I would really like if there was a way to encourage players to utilize the full moveset of a character to get the most benefit and it actually worked across all levels of play. Now one of my issues with the game, ganks, I play casually and I really do not enjoy doing ganks and I do not enjoy playing against people who gank effectively. I do not find it to be enjoyable that I parried an attack and then got punished by 4 different people. I personally would like to nerf ganks. I think it would be really nice if you were able to do multiple different actions within one defensive action. Let me give an example. Enemy A throws a heavy, Enemy 2 guardbreaks you, You eat a heavy regardless of if you counter guard break or not. i think it would be nice to be able to counter guard break and also parry at the same time. or maybe the ability to counter guard break, dodge, parry at the same time. This idea would need a lot of refinement to make sure it doesn't break something which it most likely will. But we haven't taken a core gamemechanic changing approach to making ganks less busted and annoying to play against.
From a casual on/off player since season 1, as far as I'm concerned the game should either be 100% reactable or 100% nonreactable (with a large preference towards unreactable. Save for obvious stuff like Hito's T4, large damage heavies, etc, etc. Stuff that wouldn't be normally used as openers anyway) When you fence sit, it only puts a portion of the community who can reliably react into a pretty big advantage over those that can reliably react.
15:10
I don't understand why you guys shit all over the character identity argument yet simultaneously agree with it. Pick one.
it is a sort of true argument that is made fun of because its very often portrayed as the end of the world by the really bad players when in fact its just a thing that u kinda wanna avoid u know, its not game defining but it wouldnt be cool if every hero was the same.
instead of buffing chain offense and going back to pre ccu dmg, just nerf opener damage
Heby heby heby heby heby win
You should not be able to react to something in order to counter it, for honor should be a read based game. That is what makes the game a high skill gap as you need knowledge of attack patterns. If everything was reactable like it used to be then you would have these unstoppable fucking parry dodge machines and it would go nowhere.
Tbh I want this bash change another change I would like to see in the TG would be lowering the dmg on CC lights CC’s kinda feel like a lazy way to shift offense and defense just make the light 13 or 14 and we can call it a day lol 😂😂
Normie if you see this, or anyone at the same skill as normie or close anyway, so 300-500 bash mixups with forward dodge attacks, that is unreactable? Really? For all of you reaction powerhouses, that seriously works against you? What's the success rate if you can think of one?
difficulty varies. Like, shinobi's probably the easiest one to differentiate from the FD heavy cause of the animation, while something like shao is harder but still possible to do consistently by top reactionists
yes they do, it involves a lot of conditioning and mental games. But there is not a single top player (top 10 players in the world that is) that will not be baited by stuff like bp neutral or gryphon neutral. Success rate varies but against reaction powerhouses the minimum rate was around 50% in dom scrims, even higher in tourneys where the pressure is on.
the important thing is that you dont get the wrong impression because you see a comp player go around in matchmaking and react to everything, or that you see a comp player in a vacuum environment like training react to everything...in the real game and a real match where both players are taking it seriously and paying attention they work just fine.
@@normieee_ gotcha, thank you for responding. I do understand many of the issues that these changes bring and such, however I still would love to see something that evens the field a little bit more, not to shallow it down, I am not saying make the average joe be able to fight nem, but even amongst the competitive players there are some that do not react as good as the top reactionists (like toet). I am not really sure what this mechanic would look like tbh, nor do I really have the experience to say something that'd make a lot of sense if not funded on knowledge I've gained from all of you top comps. I leave that to the experienced lol
@ewop1721 yeah, what I am mainly more so against is just how someone like me for example, who enjoys the competitive scene, would love to escalate on it, but can't cause I can't make that differ, I can't react to most bashes, I need to hyper focus to even block lights. I don't really stand that much of a chance just from a 1v1 aspect lol, so while yes this blanket change is not really the perfect approach, I would still like to see ubisoft trying other approaches to dealing with reactability vs unreactability.
Normie's points make sense ofc, I am not going against his logic, I just want a game where I have a chance outside of my genetic build, something I can genuinely improve at and that could make a difference in my gameplay by improving it.
Edit: So if these mixups with forward dodge have a reliable success rate, it's cool (I forgor to add this prior to the edit 💀)
If you dodge BP's bash you'll dodge the forward heavy too. He has no chain from a wif bash or forward heavy. How is that mix up?
flip
He does?
Forward heavy leads to undogeable heavy or regular light,
It also leads to flip on deflect or dodge attack
And on top of that it also fast flows into unblockable bulwark slash.
People really want to be debating game balance and not even know what they are talking about.
@@digo3049 All of which are null and void if your opponent empty dodges which is what he will do to avoid the bash too which is why I dont understand how that is a mixup. And I am asking questions to learn, not to be told that I don't know enough about the game to ask questions.
@@hannesbornman1045 did you not watch the video or read my comment?
How is any of that null and void?
Flip punishes dodge attacks if they do them
He can keep offense goibg by chaining into light then bulwark slash or just straight up go into bulwark slash or undogable heavy.
All of these options give him frame advanatge when they hit and allow him to
Keep his turn all after one dodge forward in a neutral interaction.
He said players cannot react to wether or not a bash or dodge forward heavy were to come out so of course most would want to dodge and make everything “null and void” this leads to the bp controlling the fight and allows for empty dodge into gb to catch the most beneficial option being empty dodge.
All of this from a single dodge forward and it being unreactable to determine if a forward heavg will hit or a bash, ( he can delay his bash too)
@@digo3049 Thank you for the thorough explanation. I guess I haven't thought of it that way. Most casual players wont I suspect.
bros saying they're not a hivemind as if we'd believe him XD
A comp player crying about he won't be able to win in 1v1s just by reacting on neutral offense in 100/100 cases😢
And he's doing it almost for 30 mins...
Where do I learn these deeper mechanics? I used to be able to keep up in this game but now I just can’t anymore it’s like I need to completely relearn this game I used to enjoy playing.
The bash changes are bad. We need damage reduction across the board and a complete perk/feats rework first. Also how about some new fookin maps? I'll trade all universal and weekly content for 4 months to get some new maps.