I must disagree about this not being for long campaigns. If a character dies their actions in the world continue to have impact and influence what the party does. Just because they’re a little more mortal doesn’t have to make them thin, and the ones who survive have earned their backstory. I’d say ShadowDark is more character driven, rather than less. And a lot of what folks do in 5e seems more plot driven, rather than character driven.
For the mapping, It's more work, But if you cut each room/area onto its own sheet and place the sheets together as they go, you avoid both problems: - You don't make mistakes drawing it ad-hoc - Players can't see (too much) more than their characters can - All of the individual cutouts are irregularly sized anyway, so you can't infer where the secret rooms are.
It reminds me (and I think you mentioned this) of Dungeon Crawl Classics, where Zero Level characters die like wheat before the scythe. I never learn their names, either. In fact, the last time I ran it, I didn't even ask the player to name the characters. We just referred to them by their jobs. So, Gongfarmer, Dwarven Blacksmith, Rutabaga Farmer, etc. Once they got to 1st Level, then the player named them, and we did a bit of retro-backstory. Not much backstory, but in the case of a farmer who became a wizard, we said something like "he worked a plot of land for a wizard, and was secretly learning the craft. He absconded with a book of magic, which he's been reading." That way, there was a reason a farmer suddenly became a wizard upon 1st level. We found the characters started to emerge more at level 1 and beyond. While the game always remains deadly and swingy, as the characters build and develop, there's more of a sense of self and continuity to them, so I think a longer, more character driven, campaign with them becomes more open. Maybe not as much as other games, but still... I wonder if that's how Shadowdark plays; with more character driven elements coming out as characters survive. But then, maybe not. As you say, we have different games for different styles of play, and that's awesome. As much as I'm saying some level of character driven play can emerge in DCC, I'm also not confusing it for a character-centered game like Thirsty Sword Lesbians, or a more plot focused game like Call of Cthulhu. All games that are meant for very different types of game.
For the map, simpler still... print it out (I do it on A4), pin to a corkboard. Buy a bigger sheet of dark card to use as an overlay and cut a hole the size diameter of one torch. Hey presto! No mapping mistakes on the DM's part, no dropped time while you the DM draw or describe the map, all the paranoia for the characters of getting the map done right because they can't see behind them any better than they can see the parts they haven't been to yet.
I played an 11 session Shadowdark game. They reached 5th level. It started with Morgansfort from Basic Fantasy RPG and then led into the Chaotic Caves from BFRPG as well. It ended with them stopping a necromancer who was a regional-level threat. I only had 2 characters die (we did not start with a funnel), and it was against a manticore who was using some nasty fly by, grab them and drop them from high up, tactics. I found that if you have a cleric who takes cure wounds as their spell they get advantage on, the characters are just as durable as 5e characters. Combat is fast and fun and I enjoyed focusing on the story, not the mechanics and turns didn't last 10 years.
That's good to hear because neither I nor anyone I play with have any interest in playing a different version of old school DnD with fragile porcelain characters that die from stubbing their toe. LOL
Regarding big dungeon maps, one time I cut out rooms and corridors in gimp to separate pieces, arranged it space-efficiently on multiple pages. Printed it out, cut rooms and corridors into separate puzzle pieces. Written room number on reverse to not mix up. During game I glued these pieces on large sheet as party was exploring. Very cool effect, gets you fog of war almost as in VTT, but so much work. The cutting out in GIMP and rearanging was done so that room doesn't get split into multiple paper sheets during poster printing. If I would do it again I wouldn't bother, it was the most work of all steps. I would just poster print all, cut into puzzle pieces. Not big deal if some room would have multiple pieces.
Mike, you totally get Shadowdark! I see a lot of folks coming from 5e really struggling to adapt to a different style and end up running a 5e style game with ShadowDark. If you continue to run it, I'd love to hear your "Prep Step" suggestions for ShadowDark and other Old School style games!
Shadowdark does have a Light spell and Bags of Holding. However, both of them are tailored to Shadowdark. There are no Cantrips in Shadowdark. All spells require a spellcasting check. All spellcasting checks can fail and on a natural '1' a mishap occurs. In my own game the PCs were running low on torches so the Wizard decided to try out his new Light spell. He rolled a natural '1' and the mishap was Darkness, so their torch went out too! Bags of Holding in Shadowdark are slot based and very different from D&D. A Bag will have 10 extra slots (or less if it's a non-standard Bag). From my experience this isn't much. The PCs might get a pair of silver daggers, fine chainmail, and an ornate longsword as their treasure. That's 6 equipment slots! On running Shadowdark campaigns, as a DM you must consciously change the monster encounter rules for more of a D&D style heroism to lend itself to campaign style games. I've been running a D&D style campaign for Shadowdark and here's what I've done: 1) Weaker Monster Encounters - build encounters based on the total characters level AND maximum character level. In Shadowdark the standard is about 1.5 monster levels per character level. Lower that to a 1:1 level ratio at most. For every character level have no more than the same number of monster levels. Furthermore, don't have high level monsters that are twice the highest character level. Keeping the monster levels lower increases the heroics of the PCs and lends itself to longer campaigns. 2) Common Low Level Monsters - make low level monsters more common. It encourages PCs to engage in fights they can win. Fighting lots of skeletons and zombies is heroic even at high levels. Because of the danger of Shadowdark, a high level party can be overrun by a Zombie Horde. From my experience running an undead campaign, the PCs have been overrun by Zombie Hordes several times at lower levels, and once at both 4th level and a 6th level. A 6th level fighter with 40 hp can only hold off the Horde for so long before magic fails, monsters score nat 20's and they have to fall back to a safer location. 3) Boss Encounters - The few times you should break the rules of lower monster levels is a Boss Fight. Where did those zombies come from? Maybe they were created from the breath of a Dracolich. Who is controlling them? Necromancers who serve the undying dragon. Those special encounters are more memorable because they can boast a higher level monster. By keeping the level and danger disparity between monsters great it accentuates the danger when the Boss finally arrives. When the PCs are used to fighting 1st and 2nd level monsters, a 10th level monster is much more memorable. It also makes the deaths of PCs more memorable should they happen. 4) Overland Travel and Dungeon Terrains - put a little extra effort into travel and dungeon terrain, making the environment hostile. Because resources are very limited in Shadowdark, dangerous travel, traps, and deadly terrain poses a greater risk than in D&D. Spells are far more fickle in Shadowdark. A Wizard might be able to fly over a ravine once, but how will he get back? Put the dungeon several hours deep in the bogs were the PCs risk vermin, leeches, and disease before they can start adventuring. Even if the monsters are a little weaker the PCs will be too, and they'll have to think about their arduous trek home. Smart PCs will search for a campsite in the terrain just in case they can't make it back home. The Cursed Scrollzines set great examples for dungeon terrains and overland travel. My undead campaign has been running for a week shy of 5 months and it feels more like AD&D than you'd think, although the actual game play is a lot faster and smoother. The PCs are on the verge of finishing up the campaign as local heroes, which is kinda the scope of Shadowdark campaigns. They've been defeating warbands, necromancers, hordes of undead, and clearing out cursed and haunted places. They've had many close calls with TPKs but because the encounters are a little weaker they managed to get out alive.
Old school... let them map it. You describe and they draw... awesome when they get lost. Makes spells like Augury, Commune and Divination more important.
yes! came to say this. There's some real beauty in having the players messing it up, getting lost and then developing a system to work through. I really encourage people to try this some time.
I've come to that same conclusion. Gonna run my first SHadowdark Gauntlet this weekend, and I'm jsut gonna hand a graph pper to the players. I'm not even going to tell them to map!
Thanks for this deep delve in to the game. Maybe do a Shadowdark campaign that focuses on something larger than the adventurers; so, like, the PCs are employed by a guild, college, or temple. The organization is the core of the campaign, with the players working to advance its power in the setting. That way, the adventurers successes could have a lasting effect, while their failures would be transitory.
I ran this for my family game a few weeks ago - we all loved it! The way I handled the map was to draw it as they went as a point crawl on my dry erase board. That worked pretty well although I'm not sure I always effectively portrayed the feeling of the caves and the size of various things,
A useful tool for Shadowdark RPG Rounds book keeping, is surprisingly another Time Tool. It works great with 5e and Shadowdark. It's called "The Under World Clock". We use it all the time. whenever the party begins exploring outside a settlement, which is (in general) when its important to count rounds for Shadowdark. The Underworld Clock starts at 20, and through various activities, discovering new rooms, long alls, going through 3 old rooms, and so on, the players roll the Underworld Dice and the results lower the cock from 20 to eventually zero. which is when you can time for an encounter or whatever you need, including just tracking an hour of in game time. in Shadowdark, the underworld clock's 20 - 0 represents 10 rounds in game time, but not 1 hour real time. While 1 hour real time is 10 rounds in game time. A very specific wording. Which helps overlap the time management. Either the clock will strike 0 and thats 10 rounds or an hour real time goes by at the table. It works great! The Underworld Clock has been my favorite DM tool and every player loves it and loves that they hate it. Hope this is helpful for your next game :)
@@ShannonFerguson i found the underworld clock by goblin punch blog. Ive only tweaked it a little to incorporate using torches in both 5e and Shadowdark.
@@ShannonFerguson i dont if links are allowed here… but i made a video about with links to OG post and my own one page copy for easy printing in “My Players Love This DM Secret Weapon”
My map solution is post-it notes. I print out a whole map (24x36 black and white architectual print ~$4 at FedEx) then I carefully place post it notes to cover up the sections of the maps. You have to be a little tricky and cover up the outside of rooms too so that players can't tell where a secret door might be, but over all it works pretty well. Just be sure to use darker color notes. The real pale yellow can be see through.
Hey Mike, thank you! Great Video! I have now 7x4 hour Sessions of Shadowdark as a GM under my belt with different groups and you have to think a little bit differently than 5e, thats for sure. Regarding your statement about checks and there should have been a deception check. @TheArcaneLibrary wrote a wonderful statement about that: In OSR, exploration and roleplay are the main pillars. Roleplay is especially important because monsters or creatures you meet are much less likely to attack on sight thanks to Reaction rolls. It is possible -- even typical -- to complete an entire adventure site without combat. You do not roll for Charisma checks to influence NPCs; your character must actually say something useful. Regarding, there are only dungeons in Shadowdark, she wrote: Dungeons are common, but players and PCs are engaged primarily by the appeal to discovery -- finding out what's out there, and what will happen next. Regarding Character development and character focused play she wrote: Character development is a very strong part of the OSR. Consider the famous, storied wizards you may have heard of: Tasha, Mordenkainen, Rary, Melf... they are all famous, real characters played in early D&D. That helped me clear some things, so thank you Kelsey for a great game - a perfect balance between modern TTRPGs and old school play!
This review isn't on your podcast feed yet, thus, I was delighted to find it here - and even more delighted that you had such a good time playing Shadowdark. Can't wait to try it out myself.
This game feels more like Theseus and the Argonauts, or a Viking Saga, where there is rotating cast of characters with a few high level ones that survive, but most of them leaves us at least with a few memorable moments, and a few die or sacrifice themselves heroically. If a player decides to sacrifice a character for the group to scape, I'm all about it!
I was really curious to see how your first Shadowdark session was going to go, and I'm thrilled that it was so positive. I got a really good feeling about the game from the kickstarter, and I can't wait to get my hands on the physical books. Thanks for giving us a breakdown, and a roadmap of what to expect should we play/run the game.
Not sure if anyone else mentioned it, but there is a bag of holding magical item somewhere in ShadowDark (Core rules, page 299). It has 10 gear slots. Thanks for the videos! I backed the Kickstarter and am looking forward to running it. I'm thinking of using ShadowDark for a West Marches style game as it accommodates multiple characters per player, multiple players, absent players, multiple parties, etc... In that setting I think the character light style would work well over a protracted campaign.
I ran a one-shot shadowdark adventure and the characters found a bag of holding when rolling the random treasure table for the cult leader's room. They were absolutely ecstatic, but after that they just got two more rooms before finishing the adventure so I could comment on the effect it has. But up to that point they were really struggling with the slot space (their only fighter had 10 strength so he depended on constitution to carry things)
My solution for the map problem is to only draw the room they can currently see, and unless it's a puzzle that requires the map or a shape that's really hard to describe i only do so during combat. So i never run into the issue of running out of space, each section of the map is erased when they leave. We put one player on cartography duty(she's very eager to do so, don't worry we're not forcing her lol) and it's her job to make sure the party can navigate the dungeon, if they make a mistake on their own map then they'll have to deal with that problem later. Obviously this means i have to be giving them pretty specific descriptions of every room but that's a small price to pay honestly. At the end it's pretty fun looking at the differences between their map and mine lol
Thanks for sharing your experience with us, Mike! I was really looking forward to hearing how your style of DMing would adapt to this and I’m really happy to hear you enjoyed it! I can’t wait to run a game in it, myself. I just have to find the right mix of players to buy into the style.
I think the gauntlet is a mini-game within SD. You really need to run the 1-10 levels, as it is more heroic than the gauntlet. Still deadly, yes, but the players aren’t usually going through multiple characters per session. My SD game is at level 4 and we’ve only lost 2 PCs so far.
Yeah the gauntlet seems like a comedy game like DCC where characters are bumbling and die off in piles so much that it becomes a silly laugh fest. That's are okay for a light one shot without any expectations of role playing but it wouldn't be good for much else.
Great thoughts. Gauntlet (or funnel) play is always flimsier in the player side of things. I look forward to your thoughts on leveled play in Shadowdark.
I run an Old School game with sometimes up to 12 players in a session. We use a folded piece of paper as a "name tag" that the player sets in front of them and can change when they die.
I’m pretty sure that max hp at first level is written in the book under the “different ways to play,” (or whatever its called) section of the book. There are a ton of fun extra tack on modes in that section.
I play with max HP at level 1 and it works really well, characters can still be one-shotted, but it gives some padding to bad luck. I also allow players to swap 2 stats at character creation so they can have more freedom to choose their class.
I have backed this and was keen to see how this would play out. Your great review of your session has been very .... illuminating. Sorry for the pun. Keep up the great work. I would love to see something similar for the Dragonbane game.
A trick I do for in game maps.. terrain or analog play is use black cardstock construction paper to cover the map. So if you are drawing the map..or printed..have the full map done. Then when players enter a room remove the black construction paper. I usually will set the paper to where the players can see doors so they know where they can go. It's worked out pretty well and its not that hard to remove paper as they explore. With 3D terrian....yeah they will get the layout some. Just gotta roll with that. Another method I've done is to have the whole map shown but not whats in the rooms. Or what's in the hallways. So when players entered the room... quickly set up with the terrain and go. If you play HeroQuest this is that method. It can work but I like the Construction paper method better. I feel this will work for ShadowDarkRpg as the black construction paper can represent the darkness. So when that torch goes out...map is covered again. Just some ideas to try.
I run Old School Essentials for 1,5 years (heavily homebrewed). Greatest gaming I ever had. On your point about long campaigns: a) Players eventually get a lot better after dying a few times. b) Retainers/Mercenaries make the early game easier. c) Because the characters can die a lot, the story starts revolving about the party as a whole, the world setting and the lucky survivors. d) It became very episodic. I did not plan a story. I said "What do you wanna do?" and made an adventure of whatever interested the players at the time.
Happy you all had a positive experience with one of my favorite new games! I think playing with 1st level characters you can potentially get more into character focused adventures. I look forward to hearing more about how that goes as you run a campaign. Also, one mapping technique I haven't heard much about but that I think is very "lazy" - just put the whole blank map out there and don't worry so much about secret rooms. Sure the players can see the whole layout, but they still won't know what is in each room until they explore there, so even if they can see where the two paths at the T intersection lead to, the most info they get are general room layouts (especially if you're using a black and white dyson logo map).
Thanks for sharing your experiences! Sidenote: there is actually a bag of holding in the game - I only remember because there is a fun rule for what happens when you put a bag of holding inside another bag of holding 🤓
What we've started doing in my game is old school group initiative. Adds a degree of flexibility and I think it adds to their survival. We also do Max HP's at first lvl, then roll after. I think if I ever go with a bag of holding, it will only be 5-6 extra slots. They will be exceedingly rare.
Yeah, that’s how Gygax originally designed the game, and you can see it in many of the maps he draws and hallway descriptions he writes - transitions so gradual that the characters don’t notice that they’ve descended to the next (more dangerous) level down, etc. Gygax was running games for a pretty particular type of player, the type that enjoys that kind of minutiae. That practice fell by the wayside before too long. I’ve done it with my players, and it really has the potential to slow the game down to a standstill. Eventually I think even Gygax stopped including it in the game (though I could be wrong).
There is Bag of Holding in Shadowdark :-) It gives extra 10 slots. Damage issue - what you are saying is true for gauntlets and non-fighters, in regular game Fighter adds 1+ half their level (round down) to damage so a 4th level Fighter would do d6+3 damage with a spear. It makes Fighter more reliable and less random in combat.
I have found that using a map at the table is more just for me as a DM. My players tend to fall into two camps: Those that are theatre of the mind to the degree that they don't really care about seeing a representation of the space unless for tactical combat and those that get so into it that they are drawing their own map. Particularly in old school style games I think the players sketching out their own version of the map is the preferred method. Or as Bob the World Builder suggested maybe take a fractured or slightly inaccurate map and print it out to give to the players as an in world item the characters find so they have something to use (and something for you to befuddle them with by having things be *ever* so slightly different
I haven't run that dungeon but I ran the Maze of the Minotaur dungeon as a gauntlet and it was an excellent experience. I love Shadowdark for all the reasons you enumerate and it scratches that old school dungeon crawl itch better (IMO) than something like OSE or even Five Torches Deep for me. I can't wait to get all the physical rewards and run the game in person for my students. :)
Appreciateyou sharing your thoughts. If/ when I get around to playing/ running a game, I'll have to remember these notes. It's a different style game and must be run differently. 👌
I believe Kelsey printed the entire dungeon map when she ran Shadowdark at Gary Con 2022. The adventure from Cursed Scroll #1 if I'm not mistaken. I saw a photo on the kickstarter page. I don't know if she covered secret rooms. I've been feeling inclined to do the same. If it's a dungeon of my own design, I might add rooms that are not really there, and print some rooms to add later (hidden or otherwise) just to give players a sense of surprise and for them not to rely too much on the map.
Sorry to necro, but I'd love to hear how this has/continues to work for you -- I thought it was a great idea! Biggest problem is groups that I play in want to be in - person, but 1. mapping on graph paper in real time is too onerous, 2. cutting out everything beforehand asks too much of our DM, 3. dry-erase on large mat with nodes-and-edges is vastly less satisfying (and still work). This seems like a great way to allow a DM to create cool dungeons, without adding extra admin/craft work, easing the load on players mapping in realtime, while also eliminating the 'metagame problem' of a (empty) map you can see from the get go. If at anytime, a room on the map might actually not exist, or might be added, or might be taped-over and chnaged, it seems like it could teach players that no, you can't really metagame this, you have to take this one step at a time as if you couldn't see the whole dungeon already.
I've been struggling with how to do the mapping at the table and not found a good solution. I want to print out a poster version of the map because it has a great impact at the table and is easy to work with. I don't mind the players seeing the dungeon layout because they still don't know anything about the contents of the rooms and the decision to turn left or right at the junction is just as interesting as if they didn't see anything... But, having the secret rooms spoils that Suprise. One solution would be to have a version of the map without secrets and then print those separately and place them on top of the poster once discovered, giving you the visual impact of a printed map with the exploration of hidden secrets.
i haven't run Shadowdark, but my main game Basic D&D has turn tracking as well. it was an adjustment at first coming from 5E, but now it's something i can't live without in any D&D style game, because of how the resulting time records make it so easy to keep notes of what happened. turn-tracking has essentially become the way i take notes during a game. now when i try to run 5E without it i get lost.
What kinds of campaigns would run best in Shadowdark? I want to run an adventure in a city built on top of ancient city - there’s so many dungeons underground yet to be discovered. Maybe a Demi-human city on top of a old goblin city on top of an ancient mind flayed/other eldritch horror city
I think the obvious dungeon-delver style game plays really well with Shadowdark but honestly reading battle reports from people online and my own limited knowledge of the game it seems like Shadowdark can do above ground hex crawl style large format gaming really well too. There are so many random tables in the book that I really think you could make your city come alive quickly and effectively in this system without having to do a massive amount of prep work. There was a really great article I read on substack of a guy who ran a 5+ hour game all just using the random tables to create a game on the fly and build a world and populate it. In my mind Shadowdark is the go-to dnd style game *unless* epic super heroic combat is essential to your table. I think it smokes 5e in all other categories.
i know you don't like NPC that follow characters, but one way to make characters "last longer" in OSR style games (to enable story arcs), is to make sure they use hirelings and henchmen, Torchbearers and the likes. This way the "main character" is less likley to die but all the deadlyness is still there. Another way is to think of the player as the "fullfiller of the storyarch" rather than the character. For example he plays the Bastard "Prince" that wants to have the throne. But gets killed by the Theif, His next character could be a princess from another noble house who is visiting to court the current prince to claim their hands on the power. Basically the show must go on! even if its with completly different characters. the player is the one driving, and the story can be very fun and unpredictable
Just so you know, Shadowdark does have a Bag of Holding on pg 299. Great walkthrough your experience, the Gauntlet is probably the part I'm least familiar with and hearing your take was helpful
Yes, thanks for the deep dive on this! I just picked up the late Kickstarter Pledge the other day. I'll use Roll20 with dynamic lighting on a digital board (the light source will be the character on the map) physical figures on the board.
Regarding analog mapping: I know you have a bunch of Dwarven Forge tiles. Just don't use the walled pieces. Let negative space be the walls. This allows you to set out the tiles as the players explore. Without walls, it doesn't take any longer than drawing.
Initiative idea: Start with whoever rolls highest and use the second highest to determine who goes next. So if you have (in order, clockwise): GM, PC1, PC2, PC3, PC4, then back to GM, and the highest roll is PC2, and the second highest is the GM then play would start with PC2 and proceed counter-clockwise (because that's the shortest path to the GM. If there are an even number of initiatives and the top two are on opposite sides of the table, then you could go to the third as a tiebreaker.
Solution for in person napping... If you use arkenforge instead of owlbear rodeo it's designed for a tabletop display replacing graph paper /battlemat/etc (potentially touch even)
We are 8 sessions in now, I think 5 or 6 character deaths between 5 players, only two have survived since session one. I can definitely see this going a year. The game gets character focused but in a different way then 5e. It kinda emerges as you play and survive, and you can look back on it. Rather then you as a DM have to have these story beats planned out and backgroundhooks in place.
My plan to get my players to try new rpgs whilst progressing a singular narrative is to use "kids on bikes" (or a similar modern setting, Tales from the Loop perhaps?) to establish an abandoned facility/magic school as a framing device. Whilst unpacking the mystery of the institution they would discover the means to transmigrate to other worlds from which their goal is to bring things back to restore the place, like rediscovering magic.
Simular to what you did in negotiations, I think Shadowdark encourages a reaction roll modified by a characters charisma. I have considered adding Deathbringer dice to my Shadowdark games.
How do you find the lethality compared to a B/X OSR game like Old School Essentials? OSE is very much set up for long campaign play but I think it's as leathal as SD. What SD does currently lack is rules for things like stronghold building and something to do beyond hex and dungeon crawling, you could adapt from other systems.
Hey just a thought on the secret rooms. You could edit the map before you print with a white block and print 2 versions. ( could fiddle with it a bit so it doesnt look out of place with a cut and paste). So One version has the secret room visible and the other doesnt. When they find the room you replace that entire section with the secret room visible. Could be cool if the adventures come with a player map and GM map to print for in-person play. Even if you have a page to cut out the secret rooms and stick them on when your players find it.
Love the recap! I ran a level 1 game recently and taking Starsong Tower from Ruins of the Grendleroot and tweaking it a bit. It sounds like you maybe forgot the death tracking mechanic where you roll a 1d4, add your constitution modifier, and that is the number of rounds until you are dead unless another PC stabilizes you with a INT roll of 15. And each round the player rolls a d20 and on a 20 they come back with one HP. We had player go down early due and die because no one was able to stabilize them. Maybe you chose to omit that, or maybe those aren't available to 0 level characters. One part that was double-edged was magic volatility. Early on the wizard lost all their spells due to low spell checks and only had their staff to whack stuff. When the players repaired the altar in the basement the wizard regained one spell of their choice, but low rolls can mean your casters won't be able to do their main thing. I think the equipment slots based on your Strength score (min of 10) is genius and plan to use that in future 5E games with bags of holding only working for items no bigger than your fist. I also love the lack of PC darkvision. It really makes for some interesting situations. Overall, the players liked the game, the streamlined nature of it, the risk of death, etc. I don't know if I'd run a long term campaign with it, but I could see running one shots or a mini-campaign of under 10 sessions with it.
You seem to equate random encounter with combat encounter (and in fact I blame video games for that), but it doesn't need to be that - the encounter might actually be just some sort of a clue that the creature is present in the vicinity (for example: a refuse, a footprint, discarded equipement, or a sound), or the characters may see the torchlight moving in their direction, while still having some time to decide what to do with the coming encounter... The encountered creature might not be aggressive (that's what the reaction rolls are for, after all), just curious. It might be in the middle of something, just wanting to be left alone (e.g. eating the prey it caught earlier, and not likely to pursue the interruptors if not directly threatened). Did the players always want to fight mano-a-mano with everything their characters saw? Did the players never thought of having their characters run away from direct combat (random encounter) and make an abmush to make combat easier?
Would like to see you run the same module using Shadowdark vs B/X or Becmi and talk how they compare. Too me they feel very comparable to style and feel.
Awesome!! I could not participate in the kickstarter because I was screwed (Brazilian Reais against US dollar was even worse). But I will try to buy the pdf at least
I know, I have it! Though I feel eager to buy stuff from TTRPG publishers. I had participated in patreon and crowdfunding for a long time. But now it became harder for me to do…
I think Shadowdark does have a bag of holding. It’s just another pool of slots. Definitely a powerful magic item, but totally workable for higher (5+ level) characters.
I haven't even cracked the PDF open yet but I'm already really vibing with the design of this system. I've been wanting to run a Northern Marches game with a faster paced and dangerous system, but I didn't want to go all the way over to DCC which feels particularly brutal while also straying from the 5e system pretty far. I'm a really big fan of RP over grind, mainly because grind is boring to play and to DM to me and my players tend to enjoy personifying their characters. This seems like the grind at low levels will be fast, for one reason or another. Also for continuing the game on, I'm eager to see how much I can add 5e heroism into the characters modularly while still having the streamlined feel.
I also really like the idea of clearing parts or entire dungeon areas and going in later with crews to clean it out of loot. Again, I haven't read the rules and am hoping something like that's in there.
Been playing SD for a few months now as part of a campaign. Your points are on point System is board game like and for our group lacks staying power. I love some core rules but system needs more meat for long term play. I am now adding rules to fill the gaps. Players want more character development. Spells weren't full thought out. As the DM I find things like Magic Circle shuts down the game.
In the old days all we had is graph paper and had to draw the dungeon ourselves. If we got it wrong, that was part of the fun (but all those swirly parts would be hard)
Old school can absolutely run longterm BUT the mindset is different. Players have to look for advantages everywhere and not be afraid to turn around and call that dungeon a wrap.
I think you mentioned that if you run a SD campaign with this group, they probably won't use the characters from this gauntlet. I'd be interested to hear why, as I'd expect some attachment to the characters they brought out alive. (I'd also guess they have better than average stats.)
A bit late seeing this but for analog maps I'm doing dungeon card decks. Mythical Inks deck of dungeons and rollikunz dungenerator series 1 and 2 decks. Randomly dealt maps means players only see what has already been revealed.
Thanks for the summary. Definitely want to run Shadowdark. Having said that, my current favorite d20 based RPG system is still Shadow of the Demon Lord.
I can't wait to add the book of Shadowdark to my D100 Dungeon Mapping Game. The only rules to Shadowdark I would change is 1 xp for crit successes and 2 for fumbles instead of treasure based. And D100 Dungeon dmg and area hit roll with the added equipment lists.😊
Oh and also I'm going to try running the original Dragon Lance module Dragons of Despair next week using Shadowdark rules. I'm going to start the players at level 3 and I think I will let them have max hit points at level 1. I love the shadow dark rules but I really want to play more story-based adventures.
I feel like the darkness mechanic from Mazes would mesh really well with shadow dark, maybe in place of the turn order to still add pressure for random encounters and stuff
I'm still looking for a low fantasy character driven NON Wizards of the Coast or Mathfinder TTRPG to play. I may tweak Shadowdark a bit to be a bit more character and story driven.
When I ran it I had a marker that I moved in OBS - it hovered over the person whose turn it was. If I ran it for me, I’d use my streamdeck to change the color for all my players when I activated it, this would be the active turn.
i wish there was a game that was in the middle between high fantasy super powered characters like 5e or PF that have a higher chance of being character driven where backstory matters with character arcs etc, and this sort of low fantasy system that's more of a mental board game where the characters are easily replaced monopoly pieces and is driven by player knowledge. I know people would say something like 5 Torches Deep or something like that, but no.
You say that the length of the campaign would be thin because the characters re thin. Do you think Shadowdark would lend well to a West Marches style of campaign then, where the world exploration is more the story than the character stories?
I sketch out a small rough representation of the map on a single 8x10. Having a player draw the map is a nightmare. It really detracts from the game as a time sink and is a source of frustration. I map because the disconnect between the player and the character knowledge is great. Working off of a DM description alone isn't enough, it's better not to map, and just tell the DM we go back to X room.
I find 5e more like a board game than Shadowdark with all the combat rules. I did start in 1987 with AD&D and we were roleplay heavy so maybe that's why I find Shadowdark far more freeing to focus more on Roleplaying than all the rules in 5e that just slow down combat to a crawl especially at higher levels. The Priest can have a light spell just need to roll DC11 to cast. You need to run a level 1 and higher levels to get a better feel for the game. Shadowdark is far more than just dungeons, there were plenty of adventures for AD&D that were not pure dungeons.
I must disagree about this not being for long campaigns. If a character dies their actions in the world continue to have impact and influence what the party does. Just because they’re a little more mortal doesn’t have to make them thin, and the ones who survive have earned their backstory.
I’d say ShadowDark is more character driven, rather than less. And a lot of what folks do in 5e seems more plot driven, rather than character driven.
This is possibly the least helpful response I have ever read to a review.
@@pwykersotz I mean, 26 persons thinks this is a nice point (26 likes) but nobody really considers your comment helpful (0 likes)...
For the mapping,
It's more work,
But if you cut each room/area onto its own sheet and place the sheets together as they go, you avoid both problems:
- You don't make mistakes drawing it ad-hoc
- Players can't see (too much) more than their characters can
- All of the individual cutouts are irregularly sized anyway, so you can't infer where the secret rooms are.
Photocopiers for the win! Great suggestion!
It reminds me (and I think you mentioned this) of Dungeon Crawl Classics, where Zero Level characters die like wheat before the scythe. I never learn their names, either. In fact, the last time I ran it, I didn't even ask the player to name the characters. We just referred to them by their jobs. So, Gongfarmer, Dwarven Blacksmith, Rutabaga Farmer, etc. Once they got to 1st Level, then the player named them, and we did a bit of retro-backstory. Not much backstory, but in the case of a farmer who became a wizard, we said something like "he worked a plot of land for a wizard, and was secretly learning the craft. He absconded with a book of magic, which he's been reading." That way, there was a reason a farmer suddenly became a wizard upon 1st level.
We found the characters started to emerge more at level 1 and beyond. While the game always remains deadly and swingy, as the characters build and develop, there's more of a sense of self and continuity to them, so I think a longer, more character driven, campaign with them becomes more open. Maybe not as much as other games, but still...
I wonder if that's how Shadowdark plays; with more character driven elements coming out as characters survive. But then, maybe not. As you say, we have different games for different styles of play, and that's awesome. As much as I'm saying some level of character driven play can emerge in DCC, I'm also not confusing it for a character-centered game like Thirsty Sword Lesbians, or a more plot focused game like Call of Cthulhu. All games that are meant for very different types of game.
For the map, simpler still... print it out (I do it on A4), pin to a corkboard. Buy a bigger sheet of dark card to use as an overlay and cut a hole the size diameter of one torch. Hey presto! No mapping mistakes on the DM's part, no dropped time while you the DM draw or describe the map, all the paranoia for the characters of getting the map done right because they can't see behind them any better than they can see the parts they haven't been to yet.
I played an 11 session Shadowdark game. They reached 5th level. It started with Morgansfort from Basic Fantasy RPG and then led into the Chaotic Caves from BFRPG as well. It ended with them stopping a necromancer who was a regional-level threat. I only had 2 characters die (we did not start with a funnel), and it was against a manticore who was using some nasty fly by, grab them and drop them from high up, tactics. I found that if you have a cleric who takes cure wounds as their spell they get advantage on, the characters are just as durable as 5e characters. Combat is fast and fun and I enjoyed focusing on the story, not the mechanics and turns didn't last 10 years.
That's good to hear because neither I nor anyone I play with have any interest in playing a different version of old school DnD with fragile porcelain characters that die from stubbing their toe. LOL
Regarding big dungeon maps, one time I cut out rooms and corridors in gimp to separate pieces, arranged it space-efficiently on multiple pages. Printed it out, cut rooms and corridors into separate puzzle pieces. Written room number on reverse to not mix up. During game I glued these pieces on large sheet as party was exploring. Very cool effect, gets you fog of war almost as in VTT, but so much work.
The cutting out in GIMP and rearanging was done so that room doesn't get split into multiple paper sheets during poster printing.
If I would do it again I wouldn't bother, it was the most work of all steps. I would just poster print all, cut into puzzle pieces. Not big deal if some room would have multiple pieces.
Mike, you totally get Shadowdark! I see a lot of folks coming from 5e really struggling to adapt to a different style and end up running a 5e style game with ShadowDark. If you continue to run it, I'd love to hear your "Prep Step" suggestions for ShadowDark and other Old School style games!
Shadowdark does have a Light spell and Bags of Holding. However, both of them are tailored to Shadowdark. There are no Cantrips in Shadowdark. All spells require a spellcasting check. All spellcasting checks can fail and on a natural '1' a mishap occurs. In my own game the PCs were running low on torches so the Wizard decided to try out his new Light spell. He rolled a natural '1' and the mishap was Darkness, so their torch went out too! Bags of Holding in Shadowdark are slot based and very different from D&D. A Bag will have 10 extra slots (or less if it's a non-standard Bag). From my experience this isn't much. The PCs might get a pair of silver daggers, fine chainmail, and an ornate longsword as their treasure. That's 6 equipment slots!
On running Shadowdark campaigns, as a DM you must consciously change the monster encounter rules for more of a D&D style heroism to lend itself to campaign style games. I've been running a D&D style campaign for Shadowdark and here's what I've done:
1) Weaker Monster Encounters - build encounters based on the total characters level AND maximum character level. In Shadowdark the standard is about 1.5 monster levels per character level. Lower that to a 1:1 level ratio at most. For every character level have no more than the same number of monster levels. Furthermore, don't have high level monsters that are twice the highest character level. Keeping the monster levels lower increases the heroics of the PCs and lends itself to longer campaigns.
2) Common Low Level Monsters - make low level monsters more common. It encourages PCs to engage in fights they can win. Fighting lots of skeletons and zombies is heroic even at high levels. Because of the danger of Shadowdark, a high level party can be overrun by a Zombie Horde. From my experience running an undead campaign, the PCs have been overrun by Zombie Hordes several times at lower levels, and once at both 4th level and a 6th level. A 6th level fighter with 40 hp can only hold off the Horde for so long before magic fails, monsters score nat 20's and they have to fall back to a safer location.
3) Boss Encounters - The few times you should break the rules of lower monster levels is a Boss Fight. Where did those zombies come from? Maybe they were created from the breath of a Dracolich. Who is controlling them? Necromancers who serve the undying dragon. Those special encounters are more memorable because they can boast a higher level monster. By keeping the level and danger disparity between monsters great it accentuates the danger when the Boss finally arrives. When the PCs are used to fighting 1st and 2nd level monsters, a 10th level monster is much more memorable. It also makes the deaths of PCs more memorable should they happen.
4) Overland Travel and Dungeon Terrains - put a little extra effort into travel and dungeon terrain, making the environment hostile. Because resources are very limited in Shadowdark, dangerous travel, traps, and deadly terrain poses a greater risk than in D&D. Spells are far more fickle in Shadowdark. A Wizard might be able to fly over a ravine once, but how will he get back? Put the dungeon several hours deep in the bogs were the PCs risk vermin, leeches, and disease before they can start adventuring. Even if the monsters are a little weaker the PCs will be too, and they'll have to think about their arduous trek home. Smart PCs will search for a campsite in the terrain just in case they can't make it back home. The Cursed Scrollzines set great examples for dungeon terrains and overland travel.
My undead campaign has been running for a week shy of 5 months and it feels more like AD&D than you'd think, although the actual game play is a lot faster and smoother. The PCs are on the verge of finishing up the campaign as local heroes, which is kinda the scope of Shadowdark campaigns. They've been defeating warbands, necromancers, hordes of undead, and clearing out cursed and haunted places. They've had many close calls with TPKs but because the encounters are a little weaker they managed to get out alive.
The game is new, so these reviews are valuable.
I am looking forward to hearing your analysis on high level play in shadowdark
Old school... let them map it. You describe and they draw... awesome when they get lost. Makes spells like Augury, Commune and Divination more important.
yes! came to say this. There's some real beauty in having the players messing it up, getting lost and then developing a system to work through. I really encourage people to try this some time.
I've come to that same conclusion. Gonna run my first SHadowdark Gauntlet this weekend, and I'm jsut gonna hand a graph pper to the players. I'm not even going to tell them to map!
It's definitely a lost art to gameplay and I'm surprised they didn't have an option for that here.
Mike's problems with Shadowdark: Physical maps at the table.
Mike's problems with all other ttrpgs: Physical maps at the table.
Thanks for this deep delve in to the game.
Maybe do a Shadowdark campaign that focuses on something larger than the adventurers; so, like, the PCs are employed by a guild, college, or temple. The organization is the core of the campaign, with the players working to advance its power in the setting. That way, the adventurers successes could have a lasting effect, while their failures would be transitory.
Thanks for the replies, folks!
I keep finding you in the wild
@@ScratchBashing 😄 The Spackle must flow!
I ran this for my family game a few weeks ago - we all loved it! The way I handled the map was to draw it as they went as a point crawl on my dry erase board. That worked pretty well although I'm not sure I always effectively portrayed the feeling of the caves and the size of various things,
Would be interesting to see how well some of the old D&D BECMI/BX and AD&D 1e/2e modules played when converted to Shadowdark.
thank you for this! I'm a 5e DM looking to try to shift to SD with my table soon -- this was a fun review, appreciate the detailed thoughts.
A useful tool for Shadowdark RPG Rounds book keeping, is surprisingly another Time Tool. It works great with 5e and Shadowdark. It's called "The Under World Clock". We use it all the time.
whenever the party begins exploring outside a settlement, which is (in general) when its important to count rounds for Shadowdark.
The Underworld Clock starts at 20, and through various activities, discovering new rooms, long alls, going through 3 old rooms, and so on, the players roll the Underworld Dice and the results lower the cock from 20 to eventually zero. which is when you can time for an encounter or whatever you need, including just tracking an hour of in game time.
in Shadowdark, the underworld clock's 20 - 0 represents 10 rounds in game time, but not 1 hour real time. While 1 hour real time is 10 rounds in game time.
A very specific wording. Which helps overlap the time management. Either the clock will strike 0 and thats 10 rounds or an hour real time goes by at the table.
It works great!
The Underworld Clock has been my favorite DM tool and every player loves it and loves that they hate it. Hope this is helpful for your next game :)
This sounds interesting. Is this something you created or did you find it somewhere?
@@ShannonFerguson i found the underworld clock by goblin punch blog. Ive only tweaked it a little to incorporate using torches in both 5e and Shadowdark.
@@ShannonFerguson i dont if links are allowed here… but i made a video about with links to OG post and my own one page copy for easy printing in “My Players Love This DM Secret Weapon”
My map solution is post-it notes. I print out a whole map (24x36 black and white architectual print ~$4 at FedEx) then I carefully place post it notes to cover up the sections of the maps. You have to be a little tricky and cover up the outside of rooms too so that players can't tell where a secret door might be, but over all it works pretty well. Just be sure to use darker color notes. The real pale yellow can be see through.
Yes. You can also get postit sheets. Then just place over and “score” to size
Hey Mike, thank you! Great Video! I have now 7x4 hour Sessions of Shadowdark as a GM under my belt with different groups and you have to think a little bit differently than 5e, thats for sure.
Regarding your statement about checks and there should have been a deception check.
@TheArcaneLibrary wrote a wonderful statement about that:
In OSR, exploration and roleplay are the main pillars. Roleplay is especially important because monsters or creatures you meet are much less likely to attack on sight thanks to Reaction rolls. It is possible -- even typical -- to complete an entire adventure site without combat. You do not roll for Charisma checks to influence NPCs; your character must actually say something useful.
Regarding, there are only dungeons in Shadowdark, she wrote:
Dungeons are common, but players and PCs are engaged primarily by the appeal to discovery -- finding out what's out there, and what will happen next.
Regarding Character development and character focused play she wrote:
Character development is a very strong part of the OSR. Consider the famous, storied wizards you may have heard of: Tasha, Mordenkainen, Rary, Melf... they are all famous, real characters played in early D&D.
That helped me clear some things, so thank you Kelsey for a great game - a perfect balance between modern TTRPGs and old school play!
This review isn't on your podcast feed yet, thus, I was delighted to find it here - and even more delighted that you had such a good time playing Shadowdark. Can't wait to try it out myself.
This game feels more like Theseus and the Argonauts, or a Viking Saga, where there is rotating cast of characters with a few high level ones that survive, but most of them leaves us at least with a few memorable moments, and a few die or sacrifice themselves heroically. If a player decides to sacrifice a character for the group to scape, I'm all about it!
I was really curious to see how your first Shadowdark session was going to go, and I'm thrilled that it was so positive. I got a really good feeling about the game from the kickstarter, and I can't wait to get my hands on the physical books. Thanks for giving us a breakdown, and a roadmap of what to expect should we play/run the game.
For mapping.
I draw the rooms separately as floor plans. When they leave each area I remove it. They can do their own map if they like.
"Like a Heath bar...." awesome visual!
Not sure if anyone else mentioned it, but there is a bag of holding magical item somewhere in ShadowDark (Core rules, page 299). It has 10 gear slots. Thanks for the videos! I backed the Kickstarter and am looking forward to running it. I'm thinking of using ShadowDark for a West Marches style game as it accommodates multiple characters per player, multiple players, absent players, multiple parties, etc... In that setting I think the character light style would work well over a protracted campaign.
I ran a one-shot shadowdark adventure and the characters found a bag of holding when rolling the random treasure table for the cult leader's room.
They were absolutely ecstatic, but after that they just got two more rooms before finishing the adventure so I could comment on the effect it has.
But up to that point they were really struggling with the slot space (their only fighter had 10 strength so he depended on constitution to carry things)
My solution for the map problem is to only draw the room they can currently see, and unless it's a puzzle that requires the map or a shape that's really hard to describe i only do so during combat. So i never run into the issue of running out of space, each section of the map is erased when they leave. We put one player on cartography duty(she's very eager to do so, don't worry we're not forcing her lol) and it's her job to make sure the party can navigate the dungeon, if they make a mistake on their own map then they'll have to deal with that problem later. Obviously this means i have to be giving them pretty specific descriptions of every room but that's a small price to pay honestly. At the end it's pretty fun looking at the differences between their map and mine lol
Thanks for sharing your experience with us, Mike! I was really looking forward to hearing how your style of DMing would adapt to this and I’m really happy to hear you enjoyed it! I can’t wait to run a game in it, myself. I just have to find the right mix of players to buy into the style.
I think the gauntlet is a mini-game within SD. You really need to run the 1-10 levels, as it is more heroic than the gauntlet. Still deadly, yes, but the players aren’t usually going through multiple characters per session. My SD game is at level 4 and we’ve only lost 2 PCs so far.
Yeah the gauntlet seems like a comedy game like DCC where characters are bumbling and die off in piles so much that it becomes a silly laugh fest. That's are okay for a light one shot without any expectations of role playing but it wouldn't be good for much else.
Would be great to hear from you after you run a few standard games of SD.
Great thoughts. Gauntlet (or funnel) play is always flimsier in the player side of things. I look forward to your thoughts on leveled play in Shadowdark.
I run an Old School game with sometimes up to 12 players in a session. We use a folded piece of paper as a "name tag" that the player sets in front of them and can change when they die.
Great video. I’m really interested in trying Shadow dark so please more videos like this one.
I’m pretty sure that max hp at first level is written in the book under the “different ways to play,” (or whatever its called) section of the book. There are a ton of fun extra tack on modes in that section.
I play with max HP at level 1 and it works really well, characters can still be one-shotted, but it gives some padding to bad luck. I also allow players to swap 2 stats at character creation so they can have more freedom to choose their class.
I have backed this and was keen to see how this would play out. Your great review of your session has been very .... illuminating. Sorry for the pun.
Keep up the great work. I would love to see something similar for the Dragonbane game.
A trick I do for in game maps.. terrain or analog play is use black cardstock construction paper to cover the map. So if you are drawing the map..or printed..have the full map done. Then when players enter a room remove the black construction paper. I usually will set the paper to where the players can see doors so they know where they can go. It's worked out pretty well and its not that hard to remove paper as they explore. With 3D terrian....yeah they will get the layout some. Just gotta roll with that.
Another method I've done is to have the whole map shown but not whats in the rooms. Or what's in the hallways. So when players entered the room... quickly set up with the terrain and go. If you play HeroQuest this is that method. It can work but I like the Construction paper method better.
I feel this will work for ShadowDarkRpg as the black construction paper can represent the darkness. So when that torch goes out...map is covered again. Just some ideas to try.
I run Old School Essentials for 1,5 years (heavily homebrewed). Greatest gaming I ever had. On your point about long campaigns:
a) Players eventually get a lot better after dying a few times.
b) Retainers/Mercenaries make the early game easier.
c) Because the characters can die a lot, the story starts revolving about the party as a whole, the world setting and the lucky survivors.
d) It became very episodic. I did not plan a story. I said "What do you wanna do?" and made an adventure of whatever interested the players at the time.
Happy you all had a positive experience with one of my favorite new games! I think playing with 1st level characters you can potentially get more into character focused adventures. I look forward to hearing more about how that goes as you run a campaign.
Also, one mapping technique I haven't heard much about but that I think is very "lazy" - just put the whole blank map out there and don't worry so much about secret rooms. Sure the players can see the whole layout, but they still won't know what is in each room until they explore there, so even if they can see where the two paths at the T intersection lead to, the most info they get are general room layouts (especially if you're using a black and white dyson logo map).
Thanks for sharing your experiences! Sidenote: there is actually a bag of holding in the game - I only remember because there is a fun rule for what happens when you put a bag of holding inside another bag of holding 🤓
I may steal the Shadowdark torch rule for my ACKS game. It sounds like it worked really well for your game!
What we've started doing in my game is old school group initiative. Adds a degree of flexibility and I think it adds to their survival. We also do Max HP's at first lvl, then roll after. I think if I ever go with a bag of holding, it will only be 5-6 extra slots. They will be exceedingly rare.
I have always wondered about printing on paper laminating then putting easy to remove tape over it scoring the rooms out.
Classically, only the DM sees the map, and a player (or more) can draw their own. I think that's how Moldvay works.
Yeah, that’s how Gygax originally designed the game, and you can see it in many of the maps he draws and hallway descriptions he writes - transitions so gradual that the characters don’t notice that they’ve descended to the next (more dangerous) level down, etc. Gygax was running games for a pretty particular type of player, the type that enjoys that kind of minutiae. That practice fell by the wayside before too long. I’ve done it with my players, and it really has the potential to slow the game down to a standstill. Eventually I think even Gygax stopped including it in the game (though I could be wrong).
It’s slower play, but I’ve done it once or twice, as the mapper, and had a blast.
Yah. And switch to a section of the published map if you want tactical combat.
Thats how we did it as wee lads decades+ ago..
And you can give 1 XP to the mapper as a reward as well so other players will volunteer an take turn mapping each game night.
There is Bag of Holding in Shadowdark :-) It gives extra 10 slots.
Damage issue - what you are saying is true for gauntlets and non-fighters, in regular game Fighter adds 1+ half their level (round down) to damage so a 4th level Fighter would do d6+3 damage with a spear. It makes Fighter more reliable and less random in combat.
Sounds like a good time. Can’t wait to get my players into this.
I have found that using a map at the table is more just for me as a DM. My players tend to fall into two camps: Those that are theatre of the mind to the degree that they don't really care about seeing a representation of the space unless for tactical combat and those that get so into it that they are drawing their own map. Particularly in old school style games I think the players sketching out their own version of the map is the preferred method. Or as Bob the World Builder suggested maybe take a fractured or slightly inaccurate map and print it out to give to the players as an in world item the characters find so they have something to use (and something for you to befuddle them with by having things be *ever* so slightly different
I haven't run that dungeon but I ran the Maze of the Minotaur dungeon as a gauntlet and it was an excellent experience. I love Shadowdark for all the reasons you enumerate and it scratches that old school dungeon crawl itch better (IMO) than something like OSE or even Five Torches Deep for me. I can't wait to get all the physical rewards and run the game in person for my students. :)
Complex maps I print it out, cut it into sections/rooms and add them as players explore. Double stick tape works great.
Appreciateyou sharing your thoughts. If/ when I get around to playing/ running a game, I'll have to remember these notes. It's a different style game and must be run differently. 👌
I believe Kelsey printed the entire dungeon map when she ran Shadowdark at Gary Con 2022. The adventure from Cursed Scroll #1 if I'm not mistaken. I saw a photo on the kickstarter page. I don't know if she covered secret rooms.
I've been feeling inclined to do the same. If it's a dungeon of my own design, I might add rooms that are not really there, and print some rooms to add later (hidden or otherwise) just to give players a sense of surprise and for them not to rely too much on the map.
Sorry to necro, but I'd love to hear how this has/continues to work for you -- I thought it was a great idea! Biggest problem is groups that I play in want to be in - person, but 1. mapping on graph paper in real time is too onerous, 2. cutting out everything beforehand asks too much of our DM, 3. dry-erase on large mat with nodes-and-edges is vastly less satisfying (and still work).
This seems like a great way to allow a DM to create cool dungeons, without adding extra admin/craft work, easing the load on players mapping in realtime, while also eliminating the 'metagame problem' of a (empty) map you can see from the get go. If at anytime, a room on the map might actually not exist, or might be added, or might be taped-over and chnaged, it seems like it could teach players that no, you can't really metagame this, you have to take this one step at a time as if you couldn't see the whole dungeon already.
Oh, I like changing direction with each initiative role!
I've been struggling with how to do the mapping at the table and not found a good solution. I want to print out a poster version of the map because it has a great impact at the table and is easy to work with. I don't mind the players seeing the dungeon layout because they still don't know anything about the contents of the rooms and the decision to turn left or right at the junction is just as interesting as if they didn't see anything... But, having the secret rooms spoils that Suprise.
One solution would be to have a version of the map without secrets and then print those separately and place them on top of the poster once discovered, giving you the visual impact of a printed map with the exploration of hidden secrets.
This was great! Thank you!
What about printing on scratch to reveal paper. Like what scratch cards are printed on?
Thanks
Thank you!
i haven't run Shadowdark, but my main game Basic D&D has turn tracking as well. it was an adjustment at first coming from 5E, but now it's something i can't live without in any D&D style game, because of how the resulting time records make it so easy to keep notes of what happened. turn-tracking has essentially become the way i take notes during a game. now when i try to run 5E without it i get lost.
Great video and run down as always brother ! Planning on running ShadowDark soon and very good info ! Cheers mate 🍻
Great video. The story is what happens at the table.
What kinds of campaigns would run best in Shadowdark? I want to run an adventure in a city built on top of ancient city - there’s so many dungeons underground yet to be discovered. Maybe a Demi-human city on top of a old goblin city on top of an ancient mind flayed/other eldritch horror city
I think the obvious dungeon-delver style game plays really well with Shadowdark but honestly reading battle reports from people online and my own limited knowledge of the game it seems like Shadowdark can do above ground hex crawl style large format gaming really well too. There are so many random tables in the book that I really think you could make your city come alive quickly and effectively in this system without having to do a massive amount of prep work. There was a really great article I read on substack of a guy who ran a 5+ hour game all just using the random tables to create a game on the fly and build a world and populate it. In my mind Shadowdark is the go-to dnd style game *unless* epic super heroic combat is essential to your table. I think it smokes 5e in all other categories.
check module B4 'The Lost City' for B/X D&D for inspiration maybe.
The game has a ton of random tables to support hex crawl play. You definitely aren't restricted to dungeons.
i know you don't like NPC that follow characters, but one way to make characters "last longer" in OSR style games (to enable story arcs), is to make sure they use hirelings and henchmen, Torchbearers and the likes. This way the "main character" is less likley to die but all the deadlyness is still there.
Another way is to think of the player as the "fullfiller of the storyarch" rather than the character. For example he plays the Bastard "Prince" that wants to have the throne. But gets killed by the Theif, His next character could be a princess from another noble house who is visiting to court the current prince to claim their hands on the power. Basically the show must go on! even if its with completly different characters. the player is the one driving, and the story can be very fun and unpredictable
Just so you know, Shadowdark does have a Bag of Holding on pg 299. Great walkthrough your experience, the Gauntlet is probably the part I'm least familiar with and hearing your take was helpful
Yes, thanks for the deep dive on this! I just picked up the late Kickstarter Pledge the other day. I'll use Roll20 with dynamic lighting on a digital board (the light source will be the character on the map) physical figures on the board.
Regarding analog mapping:
I know you have a bunch of Dwarven Forge tiles. Just don't use the walled pieces. Let negative space be the walls. This allows you to set out the tiles as the players explore. Without walls, it doesn't take any longer than drawing.
Initiative idea: Start with whoever rolls highest and use the second highest to determine who goes next. So if you have (in order, clockwise): GM, PC1, PC2, PC3, PC4, then back to GM, and the highest roll is PC2, and the second highest is the GM then play would start with PC2 and proceed counter-clockwise (because that's the shortest path to the GM.
If there are an even number of initiatives and the top two are on opposite sides of the table, then you could go to the third as a tiebreaker.
Solution for in person napping... If you use arkenforge instead of owlbear rodeo it's designed for a tabletop display replacing graph paper /battlemat/etc (potentially touch even)
This just makes me even more excited to run it. My plan is to do a one-shot, probably a gauntlet. Currently considering Cry of the Stingbat.
We are 8 sessions in now, I think 5 or 6 character deaths between 5 players, only two have survived since session one. I can definitely see this going a year. The game gets character focused but in a different way then 5e. It kinda emerges as you play and survive, and you can look back on it. Rather then you as a DM have to have these story beats planned out and backgroundhooks in place.
My plan to get my players to try new rpgs whilst progressing a singular narrative is to use "kids on bikes" (or a similar modern setting, Tales from the Loop perhaps?) to establish an abandoned facility/magic school as a framing device. Whilst unpacking the mystery of the institution they would discover the means to transmigrate to other worlds from which their goal is to bring things back to restore the place, like rediscovering magic.
Simular to what you did in negotiations, I think Shadowdark encourages a reaction roll modified by a characters charisma.
I have considered adding Deathbringer dice to my Shadowdark games.
I think one of the optional rules is to replace luck tokens with basically deathbringer dice.
Thanks
How do you find the lethality compared to a B/X OSR game like Old School Essentials? OSE is very much set up for long campaign play but I think it's as leathal as SD. What SD does currently lack is rules for things like stronghold building and something to do beyond hex and dungeon crawling, you could adapt from other systems.
Hey just a thought on the secret rooms. You could edit the map before you print with a white block and print 2 versions. ( could fiddle with it a bit so it doesnt look out of place with a cut and paste). So One version has the secret room visible and the other doesnt. When they find the room you replace that entire section with the secret room visible. Could be cool if the adventures come with a player map and GM map to print for in-person play. Even if you have a page to cut out the secret rooms and stick them on when your players find it.
Love the recap! I ran a level 1 game recently and taking Starsong Tower from Ruins of the Grendleroot and tweaking it a bit.
It sounds like you maybe forgot the death tracking mechanic where you roll a 1d4, add your constitution modifier, and that is the number of rounds until you are dead unless another PC stabilizes you with a INT roll of 15. And each round the player rolls a d20 and on a 20 they come back with one HP. We had player go down early due and die because no one was able to stabilize them. Maybe you chose to omit that, or maybe those aren't available to 0 level characters.
One part that was double-edged was magic volatility. Early on the wizard lost all their spells due to low spell checks and only had their staff to whack stuff. When the players repaired the altar in the basement the wizard regained one spell of their choice, but low rolls can mean your casters won't be able to do their main thing.
I think the equipment slots based on your Strength score (min of 10) is genius and plan to use that in future 5E games with bags of holding only working for items no bigger than your fist. I also love the lack of PC darkvision. It really makes for some interesting situations.
Overall, the players liked the game, the streamlined nature of it, the risk of death, etc. I don't know if I'd run a long term campaign with it, but I could see running one shots or a mini-campaign of under 10 sessions with it.
You seem to equate random encounter with combat encounter (and in fact I blame video games for that), but it doesn't need to be that - the encounter might actually be just some sort of a clue that the creature is present in the vicinity (for example: a refuse, a footprint, discarded equipement, or a sound), or the characters may see the torchlight moving in their direction, while still having some time to decide what to do with the coming encounter... The encountered creature might not be aggressive (that's what the reaction rolls are for, after all), just curious. It might be in the middle of something, just wanting to be left alone (e.g. eating the prey it caught earlier, and not likely to pursue the interruptors if not directly threatened). Did the players always want to fight mano-a-mano with everything their characters saw? Did the players never thought of having their characters run away from direct combat (random encounter) and make an abmush to make combat easier?
Would like to see you run the same module using Shadowdark vs B/X or Becmi and talk how they compare.
Too me they feel very comparable to style and feel.
Awesome!! I could not participate in the kickstarter because I was screwed (Brazilian Reais against US dollar was even worse). But I will try to buy the pdf at least
The free quickstart is completely playable! It's missing a lot of great content, but it's complete in its own right
I know, I have it!
Though I feel eager to buy stuff from TTRPG publishers. I had participated in patreon and crowdfunding for a long time. But now it became harder for me to do…
I think Shadowdark does have a bag of holding. It’s just another pool of slots. Definitely a powerful magic item, but totally workable for higher (5+ level) characters.
Yeah, it adds another 10 equipment slots. So it's nice, but not a paradigm-changer.
Really curious what you think when you run a higher level adventure. It’s still deadly but there’s more tension on saving characters.
I haven't even cracked the PDF open yet but I'm already really vibing with the design of this system. I've been wanting to run a Northern Marches game with a faster paced and dangerous system, but I didn't want to go all the way over to DCC which feels particularly brutal while also straying from the 5e system pretty far. I'm a really big fan of RP over grind, mainly because grind is boring to play and to DM to me and my players tend to enjoy personifying their characters. This seems like the grind at low levels will be fast, for one reason or another. Also for continuing the game on, I'm eager to see how much I can add 5e heroism into the characters modularly while still having the streamlined feel.
I also really like the idea of clearing parts or entire dungeon areas and going in later with crews to clean it out of loot. Again, I haven't read the rules and am hoping something like that's in there.
Been playing SD for a few months now as part of a campaign. Your points are on point
System is board game like and for our group lacks staying power.
I love some core rules but system needs more meat for long term play. I am now adding rules to fill the gaps. Players want more character development.
Spells weren't full thought out. As the DM I find things like Magic Circle shuts down the game.
In the old days all we had is graph paper and had to draw the dungeon ourselves. If we got it wrong, that was part of the fun (but all those swirly parts would be hard)
The only thing I changed was adding the SUP mechanic from
5 torches deep and letting characters have INT mod SUP in their free carry section.
Always helps a lot to have GMs as players, in my experience.
Old school can absolutely run longterm BUT the mindset is different. Players have to look for advantages everywhere and not be afraid to turn around and call that dungeon a wrap.
I think you mentioned that if you run a SD campaign with this group, they probably won't use the characters from this gauntlet. I'd be interested to hear why, as I'd expect some attachment to the characters they brought out alive. (I'd also guess they have better than average stats.)
A bit late seeing this but for analog maps I'm doing dungeon card decks. Mythical Inks deck of dungeons and rollikunz dungenerator series 1 and 2 decks. Randomly dealt maps means players only see what has already been revealed.
Thanks for the summary. Definitely want to run Shadowdark. Having said that, my current favorite d20 based RPG system is still Shadow of the Demon Lord.
Mapping. It was work but I have cut up a map and handed corridors and rooms to the players to assemble as they go.
I can't wait to add the book of Shadowdark to my D100 Dungeon Mapping Game. The only rules to Shadowdark I would change is 1 xp for crit successes and 2 for fumbles instead of treasure based. And D100 Dungeon dmg and area hit roll with the added equipment lists.😊
Oh and also I'm going to try running the original Dragon Lance module Dragons of Despair next week using Shadowdark rules. I'm going to start the players at level 3 and I think I will let them have max hit points at level 1. I love the shadow dark rules but I really want to play more story-based adventures.
I feel like the darkness mechanic from Mazes would mesh really well with shadow dark, maybe in place of the turn order to still add pressure for random encounters and stuff
I'm still looking for a low fantasy character driven NON Wizards of the Coast or Mathfinder TTRPG to play. I may tweak Shadowdark a bit to be a bit more character and story driven.
I also found mapping tricky, anyone found a solution to in person Shadowdark mapping issues?
How does one access a clean map like the one Mike shows?
When I ran it I had a marker that I moved in OBS - it hovered over the person whose turn it was. If I ran it for me, I’d use my streamdeck to change the color for all my players when I activated it, this would be the active turn.
about paper maps: I print it, then use playing cards or pieces of cardboard of various sizes to do fog of war. Done.
Does describing the dungeon and having a player map it work?
i wish there was a game that was in the middle between high fantasy super powered characters like 5e or PF that have a higher chance of being character driven where backstory matters with character arcs etc, and this sort of low fantasy system that's more of a mental board game where the characters are easily replaced monopoly pieces and is driven by player knowledge. I know people would say something like 5 Torches Deep or something like that, but no.
You say that the length of the campaign would be thin because the characters re thin. Do you think Shadowdark would lend well to a West Marches style of campaign then, where the world exploration is more the story than the character stories?
I know this is an old video, but for your map - go get a roll of wrapping paper from your local dollar tree with the grid on the back
I sketch out a small rough representation of the map on a single 8x10. Having a player draw the map is a nightmare. It really detracts from the game as a time sink and is a source of frustration. I map because the disconnect between the player and the character knowledge is great. Working off of a DM description alone isn't enough, it's better not to map, and just tell the DM we go back to X room.
I find 5e more like a board game than Shadowdark with all the combat rules. I did start in 1987 with AD&D and we were roleplay heavy so maybe that's why I find Shadowdark far more freeing to focus more on Roleplaying than all the rules in 5e that just slow down combat to a crawl especially at higher levels. The Priest can have a light spell just need to roll DC11 to cast. You need to run a level 1 and higher levels to get a better feel for the game. Shadowdark is far more than just dungeons, there were plenty of adventures for AD&D that were not pure dungeons.