This should be required viewing for all GMs migrating from 5e. You nailed the core ethos and differences between SD and 5e so well. The anecdotes of your players adjusting to the game are really useful to me, especially when I start up a SD campaign with my players who have exclusively played 5e and have very little conception of any different ttrpg (let alone flavors of DND). Your experience will guide my own. Huzzah!
This is the most comprehensive, articulate review of shadowdark in regards to the actual game theory and game mechanics that sets shadow dark apart from all the other OSR style clones and retro games out there. Thanks for how in depth you went with this review!
I love Shadowdark, it's a great system over all. One niggle I had with it was how they treated the king of battlefield protection, plate armor. There is absolutely no reason to wear it, it's all penalties and isn't the superior armor on the field of battle that it should be. As a simple fix as a GM I simply allowed the plate armor to allow for the dex bonus if you have one. After all, most of the time you will suffer penalties for wearing plate armor, due to heat, water, terrain etc. So there is a built in balance if your the GM that you can hand out to the player character that wears the wrong gear for the wrong situation. Kelsey has done a great job and overall I love the system that she's presented as well as the layout of the books etc. Great review btw, really done well on getting into the nuts and bolts. I think that those coming from D&D 5re would really benefit from this video. Love your variations on the mechanics as well as an additional aside.
It's effectively a mix of Dungeon Crawl Classics and Old School Essentials, with some 5e mechanics thrown in and a couple of new things. And I'm not at all mad at that. I already have DCC and OSE, so I didn't have a need for Shadowdark, but I'm glad that people really enjoy it!
Man this was the most valuable video i have seen about Shadowdark period! I really like your style and calm throughout way of explaining things. The only video that did not overhype every single detail and explaining how much of a genius Kelsey is a hundred times lol. Bonus points for the JRPG background music wich I am also very fond of! You have a new subscriber!
On your talk about flattening the math. I recently took a dive into older dnd, and it's wargame roots. Hit dice, were how many hits it took to kill a unit. We then divided that hit into granular hit points so we could better explain smaller combat. I have recently with my group embraced this concept back into the game. If you make your attack roll, you deal the full damage of the weapon, aka a 4,6,8 etc. If you miss the attack roll, you deal the lowest die roll, so most of the time 1 damage. With this is giving every character their full "hit dice" of hp when they start their adventure make sense. Level 3 means you have 3 hit dice, so a fighter can take 3 full hits from a d8 weapon, while a thief can take 3 full hits from a D4 weapon. Or a dozen grazing strikes that add up. This moves the game back towards its wargaming roots, but keeps hand to hand combat somewhat granular. We recently did a big battle with 100 goblins with the players in the mix, and not only was it epic and fun, but the math was exactly the same as with 10 goblins-the beauty of old dnd. Just some rambling. Lol
That was a very comprehensive over view. I am a backer and have browsed the files but have not ran a campaign using it. It looks to be a good 5e alternative that 5e players can just right into, mechanics wise. I like the casting rules and advancement. This feels like a good lite game. I am a fan of a lot of OSR type stuff OSE/ACK and this hits a familiar tone. Thank you for the deepdive
Thank you for the full detailed flip-through and analysis. I got Shadowdark via the Kickstarter. My books arrived a few weeks back. I enjoyed reading and running it now for a bunch of one shots. Next thing will be running one of the hex crawls from the Cursed Scroll zines (which look amazing!). This will be my go-to game for the time being. Looking forward to running my first longer campaign in it.
my ex 5e group (/one-fingeredwave Chris Cocks!) seem to be enjoying it a few sessions in. I love the difficulty level and prevention of players just being able to google a completely OP game breaking ‘build’. I’ve seen the party break and run for their lives a few times already and we had couple of player deaths when they made the dumb decision to try and fight the minotaur in lost citadel at level one. Surprisingly they killed it but very nearly completely TPK’d. It is a breath of fresh air compared to 5e, where they never run and are never really in that much danger. The biggest thing I’m still not 100% convinced on is the ‘always on initiative’. Obviously crawling rounds are meant to be a bit loosey goosey, and i do like the tight time keeping it gives in a dungeon. But i find it a bit weird when the party encounter something that would rather talk, like i either completely ignore it or the conversation has a staggered feeling. Love the channel and content, happy holidays to you.
That's another of the features that I mostly don't use. I can see Always-On-Initiative being really useful for some tables, but it doesn't really fit what my players and I do. Thanks, man! Same to you!
Players and I set initiative order with dry erase cards that sit on the rim of my screen. They have hexcrawling order and dungeoneering order so they can lead with ranger outside but thief inside. Whomever starts shit goes first unless they are surprised by the monsters or monsters win initiative. So if the fighter in the back ranks is a "2 Tuff Tony" he'll start a problem, usually win initiative and then monsters go, then top of the round with the thief or whatever. This adds a lot of hijinks and because I run open table its often someone's first time getting drug into something because of a boisterous fighting man lol
Definitely - that and equipment, I would say. But Backgrounds are the big deciding factor. I try to highlight the backgrounds when we play, to emphasize the character differences.
@@RedMageGM the equipment one for my players was very intuitive. A rope is clutch in situations you wouldn't immediately think of and so sometimes I'll give the last player standing a minute to look at their gear to try to come up with a creative solution
I love this game for its simplicity. It's deadly, but it's also very fast and fun. And same as 5e it's easy to homebrew things. Wanna run story base campaign where players won't die in first dungeon? Just give them max hp on first lvl and award goal accomplishments. Wanna make progression faster? Award for goals AND for treasure! I think this game can be used in many ways, not only dungeon crawl.
Shadowdark has become my system of choice. If I want a true 1980's feel, I play/run OSE but do not need to. I tend to only run games (Forever GM!) and coming from running my first long campaign of 5e that started in the pandemic and lasted 3 years with at 7-8th level I felt something was off and that the feeling that I always knew what the players would do and knew what was going to happen, I started really not enjoying running modern style RPGs. Playing the old school style with Shadowdark has allowed me to do some amazing world building that I was unable to get the inspiration from when running modern style games because I had to spend SO MUCH TIME prepping fights. I have players in one of my Shadowdark games that rarely want to fight. They look for more creative options. Along those lines, when they do end up having to fight they never do what I expect. One of the players has a magic sword, and chose to just throw bodies around during a fight (he plays a bard that is inspired by Macho Man Randy Savage) because making rulings over following all these steps modern games has was so much more fun. I fell in love with table-top RPGs when I was 8 and am about to turn 32 and feel like I am finally getting to play what I fell in love with.
I'm so glad you found a game that works so well for you and your table!! I'm in total agreement about how much more fun I'm having running for Shadowdark than I had running for 5e!
I watched quite a few reviews before I found your deep dive. Your video is the one that clarified why I needed to buy this game. Thank you for really breaking down what this game does well and why that might be a great fit for your gaming group. Fantastic job. Subbed.
Great analysis, and this is why I've been running my campaign using Shadowdark for the last couple of years, instead of the original system I was using (OSE). Less player facing crunch is great for more casual games. I run a sandbox-story-light game and pretty much all of the mechanics you've cited are the reasons I prefer this over 5E, OSE and DCC. One point on initiative: I suggest running a couple of games with the initiative RAW. I came from the same OSE approach and was going to use group initiative, but the first couple of games I decided to run it RAW. We ran Trial of the Slime Lord for our starting adventure two years ago. It was an eye-opener when the players leapt to using it, as two were 3.5/5E people, and two were relative noobs to RPGs. They leapfrogged activities off of each other's actions and the camaraderie and feeling of "in a group" are highly fostered by the system. It is a genius system, when it's properly used, to create cohesiveness.
Its a very good system. My group was a little sceptic at first but liked it so much in the end. Inspired from you I will gm a shadowdark CoS campaign tomorrow.
It was a blast. I used your stuff for the campaign. One character is a witch and connected to the Wachter family, so they have a small goal on the horizon but first they discovered how bad it was in barovia village xD The (very depressive an nihilist) Seer player wanted to go down the zombie infested well but the moment she saw the things down there she regreted it with the words "there is a party going on here...I dont like partys guys". I included the death house but never pushed them in one direction but.. yeah they really wanted to help the rich kids and get stocked for Vallaki (little they know). I added the starving and famine theme to the Durst manor and made one pupped wolf encounter as an "underderclock" (the tension and fear was hilarous). I can only thank you for your great work and I am happy to introduce Dr Maxton to my group. @@RedMageGM
Fantastic overview!! You made a few points that I hadn't thought of, but totally agree with. Thanks for helping me articulate why I love this system so much!
Thanks so much for the overview and long video here, this is what I'd been looking for in regards to Shadowdark. I'm not 100% sold, but I'm liking the approach they have with the system here, is enough to deter me away from OSE or Greg Gillispie's new RPG....not sure yet, but I'd like to play test it.
Great Review! Having played both as a player and a GM, I'd never realized the potential of backgrounds! Fighter/Thieves were always favourite characters in past versions of D&D, with backgrounds I can easily recreate them. Thanks!!
I love this system. Instead of XP for monsters or gold, I give XP for the session played, I'm playing a campaign style, Exploration, Combat, & RP. The three pillars. So the can get 1-6 xp per session.
Can't wait to have a Wizard with a good INT modifier who fails his Magic Missile cast on his first attempt. However, as the GM for this game, I'm going to bring my favorite SD character I've made on their site yet: He's a Human Fighter who got really good STR and DEX rolls. And has 1 HP. He's shaping up to be the greatest NPC of all time. He's going to be brash and bold, and he's probably going to be killed by the first trap my party will come across.
Most Characters have a set of skills/talents that give them Advantage in addition their stat bonus. It's not as random as you might think... a character at higher levels is going to have the primary stat maxed out or close to it so with Talents in which they are trained they are going to have an effective +5 for advantage plus +4 for a maxed out state for a total of +9 on d20.
We just got done using SD for our Keep on the Boardlands game. As someone who has played since the Red box sets in was looking for that sweet spot between old school and 5e mechanics. I think SD does that. Deadly enough for the Grognards without the back in my day speeches. I really like the how it has the feel of B/X simple armor and weapons lists. Maybe Basic 5E should be the nickname. One thing people haven’t talked to much is the levers you can use to make SD easy, normal or hard modes. Which is what I thought all TTRpgs needed. Wishes: Clerics had the same Miscast tables as Wizards, but this an easy change we made with cleric flavored Miscasts. This also what makes SD is you can add and subtract things you like ex: we added Deathbringer dice rules instead of the luck dice from the book, and a 1xp per game session only and have a scale up system. 3games = 2nd lvl, 4 new session = 3rd and lastly no 1d4 +con death saves. Your con bonus is the amount of death saves gets.
Thanks for the video. You gave a very detailed review of the system. I just think it is unfortunate you were not able to comment on the effects of time and darkness since those are the first two mechanics listed in the core ethos.
I just wanted to make a comment I have played a few sessions and ran a few questions of Shadow dark and I didn't feel that the extra die of damaged by the thief was that powerful. The ability to see in the dark it was very hard for my players to get behind a creature to deliver a backstab without going unnoticed. What we ended up doing was house ruling that if they could get into position without being noticed or simply behind an opponent while they were based up with another that would give him the backstab.
Another thing that I kind of tailored to the game was XP over time with kills,If the creature was level one they would have to slay 10 of them in order to gain One XP as a party. I scaled it from there so that if there is a 10 10th level monster they would get 10xp for slaying it. Was not worth the reward but they just instead tally their combats based on the level of creature and we're happy to get extra XP sporadically throughout the adventure
I know I keep adding on but just thoughts as I watched your video the addition of some of the weapons I actually used the dungeon crawl classics and basic role-playing player's handbook to add in some weapon and armor variety since my players like a little historical reality sprinkled into their fantasy. I did the gambeson at 11 ac and leather at 12ac then I then I bumped up the chainmail and put the chainshirt in. I also added the rapier as another finesse weapon but I rated it at 1d6 damage
Very excited about this game. I got the pdf and I am waiting for the physical book as my current game wraps up. Looking forward to running something with it in the near future.
Bought every damn thing off the menu when the KS hit 👊 Now I wait impatiently refreshing my email every three minutes searching for that "Items Shipped" email 😂
My group is really trusting and open. The core is myself, my wife, and our best friend, all of which GM. We dove into Vampire the Requiem back in 06 with my wife (our big break away from WotC, lol) and loved finding new systems. We've done Hero System, AGE, RuneQuest, Vaesen, Alien, Traveller, Shadowrun, and a bunch more over the years, so usually when one of us comes in with a new game we just go with it. Just got done doing a several month Animon game, lol. Sometimes I forget how good I have it
I've found that if you are coming from 5e starting your group with a few of the Optional Rules... particularly 'Pulp Mode'. It's been very attractive to my group when coming over from 5e. I also use 'Hunter Mode' as well to reward them when they vanquish tough foes and it speeds up advancement.
Talking about advancement - This is why I enjoy games with Attribute Statements for advancement. FOR EXAMPLE Drive (3): To be the greatest warrior in the realm Passion (3): Loyalty to his friends Oath (2): To uphold the honor of his family Justice (1): To bring balance and justice to the world Or Drive (2): To establish his dominance Passion (1): Hatred for all civilized people Oath (1): To maintain control of his warband Power (1): To gain more territory Truth (0): To reveal the secrets of his enemies This incentivizes players to run their characters in-line with that characters' personality, principles, and ideology.
@@RedMageGM yeah, some good examples are Riddle of Steel, Mouse Guard, and Dune. The specifics can vary from game to game, but they all involve statements core to the character
I recently heard of Riddle of Steel for the first time - I was honestly shocked that no one had used that phrase for an RPG and then I ran across it and was like...of course it's used. :)
@@RedMageGMYeah, great phrase. I was able to play four sessions of Riddle of Steel a few months ago. It was fun. The feel and tension are on a level all their own with that game. It really encourages clever and thoughtful play by the players. Combat is quick, satisfying, immersive, but brutally lethal. Melee feels great. Ranged is just okay. Magic is interesting, disgusting powerful, and fear inducing to use. I do wish the spellcasting was a little more like shadow dark. The spiritual attributes are impactful and really push you to play your character based on them. Makes the character spring to life. The game is crunchy tho. My brother & I both played extremely optimized melee characters, but we both still avoided combat when possible (we planned and executed a lot of ambushes and traps to gain the advantage). So the planning out combat came natural and it really opened up opportunities for exploration & social encounters.
Funny that a new rule-set was required for you to have the revelation required to run a campaign like the ones we have been running with OD&D for ages. More random, more lethal, you can do anything, less character sheet solutions, flattened math and so on. 😅 Welcome back to "the flock". 😀 Joking aside, any release that brings people back to the basic essence of classic D&D is a good thing.
I'm thinking of using this system with OSE to run Halls of the Blood King. It would be cool to hear you go over that module. The art is amazing and the themes are very evocative.
It's interesting for a fantasy module given it has elements of gothic horror and scifi. I plan on running it solo once before running it for a group but I've certainly have had my eye on it for some time.
The problem with 3/3.5 isn't that goblins can't hit a character past like the middle tier of "low-level" it's that you had to take up a pet study of accounting in order to advance the goblin to be consistently 1/4 of the ECL for whatever level the PCs are. The problem with 5e is that they thought they could do 3.5 with training wheels attached to it, and that makes the math way more wonky than it was in 3.5 and results in things like CR for monsters which simply do not add up if you do the math. What I love about Shadowdark is that I see the DNA of BECMI and B/X written all over it. I run BECMI and homebrewed 3.5, and all my games have the OSR "vibe" cos it's really just a style of play. Shadowdark distils that vibe into a rules set so well that one has to turn to actual old games in order to get any more vibey in that OSR style. I think it's fantastic for converting 5e players to the dark side, which is the side with cookies, as all should know. I haven't had the chance to run it yet, but I suspect it's gonna be one of my favorite dnd-like systems once I do get the chance to really try it out.
While I really like the artwork (and I would say that it has been the biggest pull this game has) it is too flat for my taste. Yes, I want to feel my character get more powerful (eventually) and I want to see it reflected in the game stats/rules. That is one of the essentials when playing old-school games. Plus, the rather arbitrary torch-rule is not to my taste either. Therefore I will very likely turn to other games when I need my old-school fix. But I would try Shadowdark out if I get the opportunity. Thank you for your really insightful video and discussion!
I’ve only ever been a part of games and run games with milestone XP. It seems to be a great way to do it. My players always do cool stuff and don’t need too many “hooks” to have a great game session. Do you think it’s “fun” to track XP/gold?This would be my only reason to do it since my method is working well.
I find it fun to track it, but do what works! No reason to mess with perfection - if you're having fun with Milestones, and your players like it, stick with it! :)
The physical hardcover was supposed to be available this past January, but it doesn't look like it's for sale quite yet. Maybe you can still get it when it comes out!
Love your review and I pretty much agree. I guess I need some reality to make a game fun. Kings and presidents cant take hundred more strikes, arrows, or bullets in the real world than a normal person, and often take less, so this massive leveling in 5e makes no sense to me. They are powerful because of the layered defenses they have and hordes around them. I get that we are throwing in magic and different races/ species, but still character ever getting so powerful that a 3rd level warrior cant even hurt them is a game mechanic I am happy to lose. The power nap that fully heals all damage is a 5e holdover I don't like. I agree that using the grimdark optional rules makes more sense for the feel of the game. Swimming in lava until you have 1 hit point, then power napping, and waking with zero damage makes no sense. I also don't find the torch mechanic that interesting, unless they happen to drop the torch in water or something. To each his own, I suspect. Shadowdark are one of the games that even if you weren't going to play the game, the DM charts alone are worth the price of the book. ICRPG is in this category also.
I feel the same way. It's a bit easier to abstract if you think of HP as "plot armor" rather than physical health, but still I much prefer low HP games. It makes it much easier for me to get into the fiction, to buy in.
@@RedMageGM right. Kill many many Sardaukar, and then Baron Harkonnen is an easy kill, ditto with the emperor. The hard part is getting to him. It should really be this way in most RPGs, IMO.
@@RedMageGM Agreed. Kill many Sardaukar and Harkonnens, and Baron Harkonnen is an easy kill. Ditto the Emporer. This is the way most RPGs should function at least in my opinion.
I detailed the changes I made for my Curse of Strahd game in the session 0 video (it's the first one on my channel). Briefly though: 1) Changed character creation - let my players roll up two sets of stats and then choose the one they wanted. They could reroll either if they didn't get a 14 in that set. 2) Changed the HP and Dying rules by incorporating a modified Into the Odd system where HP goes to 0 and then damage goes to CON. Some types of damage (falling, Life Drain, poison, etc.) can go straight to CON. HP heals up to full after a rest, but CON comes back 1 point per rest. 3) Changed initiative into a group initiative based on a d6 each round. On their turn, the players all declare what they're going to do (after deliberating) and then it all happens simultaneously. On an initiative tie, everything slows down: in reverse Wis (lowest to highest) everyone (players and monsters) declare their actions then they all resolve simultaneously. Surprise grants Adv. to the d6 and the Surprised side loses ties. 4) Removed the Torch Timer mechanic entirely, and just set torches to burn for 1 hr in game. 5) I added a Stress system, but that's Strahd specific (although based on how successful it's been, I might add it in to my games going forward.)
If you check out the first video on my channel, there's a document linked that details the rules I used for the CoS campaign and the stress rules are on there.
The players will always optimize the fun out of the game, if you let them. Shadowdark tends to keep the power creep under control specifically because it starts with a really simple, "relatively mathless" engine that's easy to mod and comes with only the set of fundamental base classes on purpose so that your games can have a lot of flexibility. Wait WHAAAAT? The game is utterly lacking power creep and doesn't have thousands of combinations in the base game and millions by the time you expand to include all of the first party content, to say nothing of 3rd party… Exactly! That Provides Flexibility more complex systems just don't have. Go back to those gameplay modes and consider how pulp and hunter modes change the base Shadowdark game. Either separately or together. And those are just suggestions! Anyone who followed Project Black Flag knows that the end result, Tales of the Valiant, has a very cool luck system. You could totally just slot that in place of Pulp. You could pull in Scotty's luck dice. You can create a new race in minutes with a player-gimme a description and a "the one cool thing they do" and … if it's a bit much, we'll discuss it. What do you want to roll for vs. choose? Want to add new backgrounds? New classes? But that's not all… Do you want to make the game pulpy eldritch horror? That's a pretty minor mod. You want to go for Sci-Fi salvage worker sort of thing? Another very lightweight mod. Do you just want to go play that power fantasy game? It isn't hard to do it because the bones of Shadowdark are pretty simple but surprisingly complete. It's designed to feel familiar to players of Coasty Wizard games, but it's got the soul of Index Card RPG, being just complex enough to give you a lot of tools and no more than that. Which means you can use it in conjunction with ICRPG to import almost any settings/worlds you want and just start running a game in them. That's kind of on purpose. Is it still Shadowdark if you do it that way? I mean, not really Kelsey's old school survival horror game, no, but … it's still the same core rules with different worldbuilding and some bits you borrow from elsewhere. And that's fine if it's what you as the GM and your players as players want at your table. That's all that matters in the end, isn't it?
On the subject of weapons, I think the crossbow got shafted hard and is probably the biggest “how did you miss that?” in the game. Why would you ever choose crossbow over longbow? -They cost the same -They have the same weight -Both require two hands -Crossbow has Loading, Longbow does not -Crossbow does a d6, Longbow does a d8 Personally I think a crossbow should do a d10. The loading property being the trade for that high damage die
I think the reason for that is the proficiencies. Priests and Thieves can use the crossbow but not the longbow - the Fighter is the only core class that can use the longbow. I think the designer wanted the fighter to be the highest consistent damage dealer.
Agreed. I keep seeing people who love Shadowdark because it is light and fast, then they want to add all the crap back into it and essentially just make it D&D 5e again.
In the first 10 mins of this video you worked through something I've been trying to articulate for my entire UA-cam "career" 🥲 It's what i love about games like ShadowDark and why I've mostly given up on "power gaming"
I'm a librarian who hosts rpg games for youth patrons, and I'm currently gearing up to run a Shadowdark-campaign. So excited!
That's awesome to hear! It's been a great success with my nephews, so I think the simplicity and challenge are great for young players!
Shhhhhsh 🤫
@@JamesTheKoopaTroopa Weed everyday
God's work. Feeding those baby adventurers.
Thinking of doing the same thing. Would love to hear how it went!
Shadowdark is what happens when 5e and Dungeon Crawl Classics have a baby and raise it as a minimalist.
hahaha wow... that's amazing! :D
This should be required viewing for all GMs migrating from 5e.
You nailed the core ethos and differences between SD and 5e so well. The anecdotes of your players adjusting to the game are really useful to me, especially when I start up a SD campaign with my players who have exclusively played 5e and have very little conception of any different ttrpg (let alone flavors of DND). Your experience will guide my own.
Huzzah!
Thank you so much! I'm really glad it helped!!
This is the most comprehensive, articulate review of shadowdark in regards to the actual game theory and game mechanics that sets shadow dark apart from all the other OSR style clones and retro games out there. Thanks for how in depth you went with this review!
Wow, thanks! I'm so glad it was helpful!
I love Shadowdark, it's a great system over all. One niggle I had with it was how they treated the king of battlefield protection, plate armor. There is absolutely no reason to wear it, it's all penalties and isn't the superior armor on the field of battle that it should be. As a simple fix as a GM I simply allowed the plate armor to allow for the dex bonus if you have one. After all, most of the time you will suffer penalties for wearing plate armor, due to heat, water, terrain etc. So there is a built in balance if your the GM that you can hand out to the player character that wears the wrong gear for the wrong situation.
Kelsey has done a great job and overall I love the system that she's presented as well as the layout of the books etc. Great review btw, really done well on getting into the nuts and bolts. I think that those coming from D&D 5re would really benefit from this video. Love your variations on the mechanics as well as an additional aside.
It's effectively a mix of Dungeon Crawl Classics and Old School Essentials, with some 5e mechanics thrown in and a couple of new things. And I'm not at all mad at that. I already have DCC and OSE, so I didn't have a need for Shadowdark, but I'm glad that people really enjoy it!
Yeah, it definitely draws from lots of places!
Man this was the most valuable video i have seen about Shadowdark period! I really like your style and calm throughout way of explaining things.
The only video that did not overhype every single detail and explaining how much of a genius Kelsey is a hundred times lol.
Bonus points for the JRPG background music wich I am also very fond of!
You have a new subscriber!
Wow man, thank you! I'm glad it was helpful to you! Welcome aboard! :)
On your talk about flattening the math. I recently took a dive into older dnd, and it's wargame roots. Hit dice, were how many hits it took to kill a unit. We then divided that hit into granular hit points so we could better explain smaller combat. I have recently with my group embraced this concept back into the game. If you make your attack roll, you deal the full damage of the weapon, aka a 4,6,8 etc. If you miss the attack roll, you deal the lowest die roll, so most of the time 1 damage. With this is giving every character their full "hit dice" of hp when they start their adventure make sense. Level 3 means you have 3 hit dice, so a fighter can take 3 full hits from a d8 weapon, while a thief can take 3 full hits from a D4 weapon. Or a dozen grazing strikes that add up. This moves the game back towards its wargaming roots, but keeps hand to hand combat somewhat granular. We recently did a big battle with 100 goblins with the players in the mix, and not only was it epic and fun, but the math was exactly the same as with 10 goblins-the beauty of old dnd. Just some rambling. Lol
Really interesting! That sounds like it could be super fun!!
That was a very comprehensive over view. I am a backer and have browsed the files but have not ran a campaign using it.
It looks to be a good 5e alternative that 5e players can just right into, mechanics wise. I like the casting rules and advancement. This feels like a good lite game.
I am a fan of a lot of OSR type stuff OSE/ACK and this hits a familiar tone.
Thank you for the deepdive
Thank you! I've been really happy with the game. :)
Thank you for the full detailed flip-through and analysis. I got Shadowdark via the Kickstarter. My books arrived a few weeks back. I enjoyed reading and running it now for a bunch of one shots. Next thing will be running one of the hex crawls from the Cursed Scroll zines (which look amazing!). This will be my go-to game for the time being. Looking forward to running my first longer campaign in it.
my ex 5e group (/one-fingeredwave Chris Cocks!) seem to be enjoying it a few sessions in. I love the difficulty level and prevention of players just being able to google a completely OP game breaking ‘build’. I’ve seen the party break and run for their lives a few times already and we had couple of player deaths when they made the dumb decision to try and fight the minotaur in lost citadel at level one. Surprisingly they killed it but very nearly completely TPK’d. It is a breath of fresh air compared to 5e, where they never run and are never really in that much danger.
The biggest thing I’m still not 100% convinced on is the ‘always on initiative’. Obviously crawling rounds are meant to be a bit loosey goosey, and i do like the tight time keeping it gives in a dungeon. But i find it a bit weird when the party encounter something that would rather talk, like i either completely ignore it or the conversation has a staggered feeling.
Love the channel and content, happy holidays to you.
That's another of the features that I mostly don't use. I can see Always-On-Initiative being really useful for some tables, but it doesn't really fit what my players and I do.
Thanks, man! Same to you!
Players and I set initiative order with dry erase cards that sit on the rim of my screen. They have hexcrawling order and dungeoneering order so they can lead with ranger outside but thief inside. Whomever starts shit goes first unless they are surprised by the monsters or monsters win initiative. So if the fighter in the back ranks is a "2 Tuff Tony" he'll start a problem, usually win initiative and then monsters go, then top of the round with the thief or whatever. This adds a lot of hijinks and because I run open table its often someone's first time getting drug into something because of a boisterous fighting man lol
hahaha those boisterous fighting men have been the death of many a thief. :D
This is an excellent review. Thanks for taking the time to go into this kind of detail.
It's my pleasure! Thank you for the kind word!
Your video made me realize how important backgrounds are for making classes not feel samey for players who aren't used to role play over builds.
Definitely - that and equipment, I would say. But Backgrounds are the big deciding factor. I try to highlight the backgrounds when we play, to emphasize the character differences.
@@RedMageGM the equipment one for my players was very intuitive. A rope is clutch in situations you wouldn't immediately think of and so sometimes I'll give the last player standing a minute to look at their gear to try to come up with a creative solution
Rope is like *the* piece of adventuring equipment. Or, maybe it's tied with the torch. :)
I love this game for its simplicity. It's deadly, but it's also very fast and fun. And same as 5e it's easy to homebrew things. Wanna run story base campaign where players won't die in first dungeon? Just give them max hp on first lvl and award goal accomplishments. Wanna make progression faster? Award for goals AND for treasure! I think this game can be used in many ways, not only dungeon crawl.
Absolutely - it's really easy to modify!
all my games of 5E now roll on ShadowDark rules its great! 💜💜
Most excellent! :)
Shadowdark has become my system of choice. If I want a true 1980's feel, I play/run OSE but do not need to. I tend to only run games (Forever GM!) and coming from running my first long campaign of 5e that started in the pandemic and lasted 3 years with at 7-8th level I felt something was off and that the feeling that I always knew what the players would do and knew what was going to happen, I started really not enjoying running modern style RPGs. Playing the old school style with Shadowdark has allowed me to do some amazing world building that I was unable to get the inspiration from when running modern style games because I had to spend SO MUCH TIME prepping fights. I have players in one of my Shadowdark games that rarely want to fight. They look for more creative options. Along those lines, when they do end up having to fight they never do what I expect. One of the players has a magic sword, and chose to just throw bodies around during a fight (he plays a bard that is inspired by Macho Man Randy Savage) because making rulings over following all these steps modern games has was so much more fun. I fell in love with table-top RPGs when I was 8 and am about to turn 32 and feel like I am finally getting to play what I fell in love with.
I'm so glad you found a game that works so well for you and your table!! I'm in total agreement about how much more fun I'm having running for Shadowdark than I had running for 5e!
I watched quite a few reviews before I found your deep dive. Your video is the one that clarified why I needed to buy this game. Thank you for really breaking down what this game does well and why that might be a great fit for your gaming group. Fantastic job. Subbed.
Thank you! I'm so glad that it was helpful!!
Great analysis, and this is why I've been running my campaign using Shadowdark for the last couple of years, instead of the original system I was using (OSE). Less player facing crunch is great for more casual games. I run a sandbox-story-light game and pretty much all of the mechanics you've cited are the reasons I prefer this over 5E, OSE and DCC.
One point on initiative: I suggest running a couple of games with the initiative RAW. I came from the same OSE approach and was going to use group initiative, but the first couple of games I decided to run it RAW. We ran Trial of the Slime Lord for our starting adventure two years ago. It was an eye-opener when the players leapt to using it, as two were 3.5/5E people, and two were relative noobs to RPGs. They leapfrogged activities off of each other's actions and the camaraderie and feeling of "in a group" are highly fostered by the system. It is a genius system, when it's properly used, to create cohesiveness.
Thanks man!
Oh interesting! I'll have to try it out sometime!
You could also, with the Curse of Strahd game, instead of keep track of torches, keep track of daylight left (time until sunset etc.).
That's a great idea!
Liked for ChronoTrigger sound track.
Its a very good system. My group was a little sceptic at first but liked it so much in the end.
Inspired from you I will gm a shadowdark CoS campaign tomorrow.
Dude, that's awesome!! You'll have to let me know how it goes!
It was a blast. I used your stuff for the campaign. One character is a witch and connected to the Wachter family, so they have a small goal on the horizon but first they discovered how bad it was in barovia village xD
The (very depressive an nihilist) Seer player wanted to go down the zombie infested well but the moment she saw the things down there she regreted it with the words "there is a party going on here...I dont like partys guys".
I included the death house but never pushed them in one direction but.. yeah they really wanted to help the rich kids and get stocked for Vallaki (little they know). I added the starving and famine theme to the Durst manor and made one pupped wolf encounter as an "underderclock" (the tension and fear was hilarous).
I can only thank you for your great work and I am happy to introduce Dr Maxton to my group.
@@RedMageGM
Duuude, it sounds like your group is incredible!! That's so awesome to hear!! Keep me updated!
Fantastic overview!! You made a few points that I hadn't thought of, but totally agree with. Thanks for helping me articulate why I love this system so much!
Great to hear that it helped!!
Thanks so much for the overview and long video here, this is what I'd been looking for in regards to Shadowdark. I'm not 100% sold, but I'm liking the approach they have with the system here, is enough to deter me away from OSE or Greg Gillispie's new RPG....not sure yet, but I'd like to play test it.
You should definitely give it a try! The quickstart set is free - preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/413713/Shadowdark-RPG-Quickstart-Set
Such a great overview! Hit the nail on the head for tone and game ethos and what it excels at, great job!!
Hey, thank you!! I appreciate it!
Great Review! Having played both as a player and a GM, I'd never realized the potential of backgrounds! Fighter/Thieves were always favourite characters in past versions of D&D, with backgrounds I can easily recreate them. Thanks!!
Glad it was helpful!
I love this system. Instead of XP for monsters or gold, I give XP for the session played, I'm playing a campaign style, Exploration, Combat, & RP. The three pillars. So the can get 1-6 xp per session.
I've been binging a lot of tour videos and the background Music IS so charming. Btw Keep up the good work! Thank you very much!
Thank you, man! You're quite welcome!
Can't wait to have a Wizard with a good INT modifier who fails his Magic Missile cast on his first attempt. However, as the GM for this game, I'm going to bring my favorite SD character I've made on their site yet: He's a Human Fighter who got really good STR and DEX rolls. And has 1 HP. He's shaping up to be the greatest NPC of all time. He's going to be brash and bold, and he's probably going to be killed by the first trap my party will come across.
Really wish I had this system back when I used to run 5e
Yeah, it's a real step-up (imo)!
Most Characters have a set of skills/talents that give them Advantage in addition their stat bonus. It's not as random as you might think... a character at higher levels is going to have the primary stat maxed out or close to it so with Talents in which they are trained they are going to have an effective +5 for advantage plus +4 for a maxed out state for a total of +9 on d20.
We just got done using SD for our Keep on the Boardlands game. As someone who has played since the Red box sets in was looking for that sweet spot between old school and 5e mechanics. I think SD does that. Deadly enough for the Grognards without the back in my day speeches. I really like the how it has the feel of B/X simple armor and weapons lists. Maybe Basic 5E should be the nickname. One thing people haven’t talked to much is the levers you can use to make SD easy, normal or hard modes. Which is what I thought all TTRpgs needed.
Wishes: Clerics had the same Miscast tables as Wizards, but this an easy change we made with cleric flavored Miscasts.
This also what makes SD is you can add and subtract things you like ex: we added Deathbringer dice rules instead of the luck dice from the book, and a 1xp per game session only and have a scale up system. 3games = 2nd lvl, 4 new session = 3rd and lastly no 1d4 +con death saves. Your con bonus is the amount of death saves gets.
5E Basic...I like it! I might just start calling it that!
Thanks for the video. You gave a very detailed review of the system. I just think it is unfortunate you were not able to comment on the effects of time and darkness since those are the first two mechanics listed in the core ethos.
I just wanted to make a comment I have played a few sessions and ran a few questions of Shadow dark and I didn't feel that the extra die of damaged by the thief was that powerful. The ability to see in the dark it was very hard for my players to get behind a creature to deliver a backstab without going unnoticed. What we ended up doing was house ruling that if they could get into position without being noticed or simply behind an opponent while they were based up with another that would give him the backstab.
Another thing that I kind of tailored to the game was XP over time with kills,If the creature was level one they would have to slay 10 of them in order to gain One XP as a party. I scaled it from there so that if there is a 10 10th level monster they would get 10xp for slaying it. Was not worth the reward but they just instead tally their combats based on the level of creature and we're happy to get extra XP sporadically throughout the adventure
I know I keep adding on but just thoughts as I watched your video the addition of some of the weapons I actually used the dungeon crawl classics and basic role-playing player's handbook to add in some weapon and armor variety since my players like a little historical reality sprinkled into their fantasy.
I did the gambeson at 11 ac and leather at 12ac then I then I bumped up the chainmail and put the chainshirt in. I also added the rapier as another finesse weapon but I rated it at 1d6 damage
really great vid, nice work, ty for posting
Thank you, mate!
Very excited about this game. I got the pdf and I am waiting for the physical book as my current game wraps up. Looking forward to running something with it in the near future.
Yeah, I can't wait for the physical copy to get here!
Bought every damn thing off the menu when the KS hit 👊
Now I wait impatiently refreshing my email every three minutes searching for that "Items Shipped" email 😂
Right there with you!
This was an excellent dive into the system.
Thank you!
Shadowdark and Black Hack 2e are in the running for my 2nd favorite OSR game... my first favorite is Dragonbane!
I'm super into Dragonbane! I just wish more of my players were. :/
My group is really trusting and open. The core is myself, my wife, and our best friend, all of which GM. We dove into Vampire the Requiem back in 06 with my wife (our big break away from WotC, lol) and loved finding new systems. We've done Hero System, AGE, RuneQuest, Vaesen, Alien, Traveller, Shadowrun, and a bunch more over the years, so usually when one of us comes in with a new game we just go with it. Just got done doing a several month Animon game, lol. Sometimes I forget how good I have it
Excellent high level review of Shadowdark. Well done. Subscribing…
Thank you! Great to have you!
I've found that if you are coming from 5e starting your group with a few of the Optional Rules... particularly 'Pulp Mode'. It's been very attractive to my group when coming over from 5e. I also use 'Hunter Mode' as well to reward them when they vanquish tough foes and it speeds up advancement.
Yeah, pulp mode is a great one to use for 5e players!
@@RedMageGM It also helps with some of the swingy-ness of SD.
Talking about advancement - This is why I enjoy games with Attribute Statements for advancement.
FOR EXAMPLE
Drive (3): To be the greatest warrior in the realm
Passion (3): Loyalty to his friends
Oath (2): To uphold the honor of his family
Justice (1): To bring balance and justice to the world
Or
Drive (2): To establish his dominance
Passion (1): Hatred for all civilized people
Oath (1): To maintain control of his warband
Power (1): To gain more territory
Truth (0): To reveal the secrets of his enemies
This incentivizes players to run their characters in-line with that characters' personality, principles, and ideology.
Interesting! I don't think I've ever seen that sort of system!
@@RedMageGM yeah, some good examples are Riddle of Steel, Mouse Guard, and Dune.
The specifics can vary from game to game, but they all involve statements core to the character
I recently heard of Riddle of Steel for the first time - I was honestly shocked that no one had used that phrase for an RPG and then I ran across it and was like...of course it's used. :)
@@RedMageGMYeah, great phrase. I was able to play four sessions of Riddle of Steel a few months ago. It was fun. The feel and tension are on a level all their own with that game. It really encourages clever and thoughtful play by the players. Combat is quick, satisfying, immersive, but brutally lethal. Melee feels great. Ranged is just okay. Magic is interesting, disgusting powerful, and fear inducing to use. I do wish the spellcasting was a little more like shadow dark. The spiritual attributes are impactful and really push you to play your character based on them. Makes the character spring to life. The game is crunchy tho.
My brother & I both played extremely optimized melee characters, but we both still avoided combat when possible (we planned and executed a lot of ambushes and traps to gain the advantage). So the planning out combat came natural and it really opened up opportunities for exploration & social encounters.
Great explanation. Great video.
Funny that a new rule-set was required for you to have the revelation required to run a campaign like the ones we have been running with OD&D for ages. More random, more lethal, you can do anything, less character sheet solutions, flattened math and so on. 😅
Welcome back to "the flock". 😀
Joking aside, any release that brings people back to the basic essence of classic D&D is a good thing.
haha yeah that is funny
Great review thank you!
Glad it was helpful!
I'm thinking of using this system with OSE to run Halls of the Blood King. It would be cool to hear you go over that module. The art is amazing and the themes are very evocative.
I actually haven't really gone over that module. I think I will one of these days though!
It's interesting for a fantasy module given it has elements of gothic horror and scifi. I plan on running it solo once before running it for a group but I've certainly have had my eye on it for some time.
The problem with 3/3.5 isn't that goblins can't hit a character past like the middle tier of "low-level" it's that you had to take up a pet study of accounting in order to advance the goblin to be consistently 1/4 of the ECL for whatever level the PCs are. The problem with 5e is that they thought they could do 3.5 with training wheels attached to it, and that makes the math way more wonky than it was in 3.5 and results in things like CR for monsters which simply do not add up if you do the math. What I love about Shadowdark is that I see the DNA of BECMI and B/X written all over it. I run BECMI and homebrewed 3.5, and all my games have the OSR "vibe" cos it's really just a style of play. Shadowdark distils that vibe into a rules set so well that one has to turn to actual old games in order to get any more vibey in that OSR style. I think it's fantastic for converting 5e players to the dark side, which is the side with cookies, as all should know. I haven't had the chance to run it yet, but I suspect it's gonna be one of my favorite dnd-like systems once I do get the chance to really try it out.
hahaha yes - watch out for those Shadowdark cookies though! They've got spikes hidden in them. ;)
@@RedMageGM take 1d4 damage.
Roll Wis check at disadvantage to resist trying a second one, cos damn if it didn't taste good.
Nicely done.
Good video. It's a shame I can't recommend it to my friends because they won't want to watch a 73min review.
haha well, I can't help you there. :)
@@RedMageGM shucks
While I really like the artwork (and I would say that it has been the biggest pull this game has) it is too flat for my taste. Yes, I want to feel my character get more powerful (eventually) and I want to see it reflected in the game stats/rules. That is one of the essentials when playing old-school games. Plus, the rather arbitrary torch-rule is not to my taste either. Therefore I will very likely turn to other games when I need my old-school fix. But I would try Shadowdark out if I get the opportunity.
Thank you for your really insightful video and discussion!
Glad to help the decision! :)
I’ve only ever been a part of games and run games with milestone XP. It seems to be a great way to do it. My players always do cool stuff and don’t need too many “hooks” to have a great game session.
Do you think it’s “fun” to track XP/gold?This would be my only reason to do it since my method is working well.
I find it fun to track it, but do what works! No reason to mess with perfection - if you're having fun with Milestones, and your players like it, stick with it! :)
Just found you. So wish I'd backed this now
The physical hardcover was supposed to be available this past January, but it doesn't look like it's for sale quite yet. Maybe you can still get it when it comes out!
Thanks, I'll be trying my best :)@@RedMageGM
thanks you, for this
My pleasure!
Nice vid
Love your review and I pretty much agree. I guess I need some reality to make a game fun. Kings and presidents cant take hundred more strikes, arrows, or bullets in the real world than a normal person, and often take less, so this massive leveling in 5e makes no sense to me. They are powerful because of the layered defenses they have and hordes around them. I get that we are throwing in magic and different races/ species, but still character ever getting so powerful that a 3rd level warrior cant even hurt them is a game mechanic I am happy to lose.
The power nap that fully heals all damage is a 5e holdover I don't like. I agree that using the grimdark optional rules makes more sense for the feel of the game. Swimming in lava until you have 1 hit point, then power napping, and waking with zero damage makes no sense.
I also don't find the torch mechanic that interesting, unless they happen to drop the torch in water or something. To each his own, I suspect.
Shadowdark are one of the games that even if you weren't going to play the game, the DM charts alone are worth the price of the book. ICRPG is in this category also.
I feel the same way. It's a bit easier to abstract if you think of HP as "plot armor" rather than physical health, but still I much prefer low HP games. It makes it much easier for me to get into the fiction, to buy in.
@@RedMageGM right. Kill many many Sardaukar, and then Baron Harkonnen is an easy kill, ditto with the emperor. The hard part is getting to him. It should really be this way in most RPGs, IMO.
@@RedMageGM Agreed. Kill many Sardaukar and Harkonnens, and Baron Harkonnen is an easy kill. Ditto the Emporer. This is the way most RPGs should function at least in my opinion.
Can you go into more detail about the changes you made to the ruleset?
I detailed the changes I made for my Curse of Strahd game in the session 0 video (it's the first one on my channel). Briefly though:
1) Changed character creation - let my players roll up two sets of stats and then choose the one they wanted. They could reroll either if they didn't get a 14 in that set.
2) Changed the HP and Dying rules by incorporating a modified Into the Odd system where HP goes to 0 and then damage goes to CON. Some types of damage (falling, Life Drain, poison, etc.) can go straight to CON. HP heals up to full after a rest, but CON comes back 1 point per rest.
3) Changed initiative into a group initiative based on a d6 each round. On their turn, the players all declare what they're going to do (after deliberating) and then it all happens simultaneously. On an initiative tie, everything slows down: in reverse Wis (lowest to highest) everyone (players and monsters) declare their actions then they all resolve simultaneously. Surprise grants Adv. to the d6 and the Surprised side loses ties.
4) Removed the Torch Timer mechanic entirely, and just set torches to burn for 1 hr in game.
5) I added a Stress system, but that's Strahd specific (although based on how successful it's been, I might add it in to my games going forward.)
@@RedMageGM thanks for the breakdown!
@@RedMageGMhow does your stress system work? That’s giving Darkest Dungeon vibes and I love it
If you check out the first video on my channel, there's a document linked that details the rules I used for the CoS campaign and the stress rules are on there.
Sounds exactly like Bandits keep.
I'll take that as a compliment!
The players will always optimize the fun out of the game, if you let them. Shadowdark tends to keep the power creep under control specifically because it starts with a really simple, "relatively mathless" engine that's easy to mod and comes with only the set of fundamental base classes on purpose so that your games can have a lot of flexibility.
Wait WHAAAAT? The game is utterly lacking power creep and doesn't have thousands of combinations in the base game and millions by the time you expand to include all of the first party content, to say nothing of 3rd party… Exactly! That Provides Flexibility more complex systems just don't have.
Go back to those gameplay modes and consider how pulp and hunter modes change the base Shadowdark game. Either separately or together. And those are just suggestions! Anyone who followed Project Black Flag knows that the end result, Tales of the Valiant, has a very cool luck system. You could totally just slot that in place of Pulp. You could pull in Scotty's luck dice. You can create a new race in minutes with a player-gimme a description and a "the one cool thing they do" and … if it's a bit much, we'll discuss it. What do you want to roll for vs. choose? Want to add new backgrounds? New classes?
But that's not all… Do you want to make the game pulpy eldritch horror? That's a pretty minor mod. You want to go for Sci-Fi salvage worker sort of thing? Another very lightweight mod. Do you just want to go play that power fantasy game? It isn't hard to do it because the bones of Shadowdark are pretty simple but surprisingly complete. It's designed to feel familiar to players of Coasty Wizard games, but it's got the soul of Index Card RPG, being just complex enough to give you a lot of tools and no more than that. Which means you can use it in conjunction with ICRPG to import almost any settings/worlds you want and just start running a game in them. That's kind of on purpose.
Is it still Shadowdark if you do it that way? I mean, not really Kelsey's old school survival horror game, no, but … it's still the same core rules with different worldbuilding and some bits you borrow from elsewhere. And that's fine if it's what you as the GM and your players as players want at your table. That's all that matters in the end, isn't it?
On the subject of weapons, I think the crossbow got shafted hard and is probably the biggest “how did you miss that?” in the game. Why would you ever choose crossbow over longbow?
-They cost the same
-They have the same weight
-Both require two hands
-Crossbow has Loading, Longbow does not
-Crossbow does a d6, Longbow does a d8
Personally I think a crossbow should do a d10. The loading property being the trade for that high damage die
I think the reason for that is the proficiencies. Priests and Thieves can use the crossbow but not the longbow - the Fighter is the only core class that can use the longbow. I think the designer wanted the fighter to be the highest consistent damage dealer.
@@RedMageGM yeah that makes sense actually. Still, loading is brutal in this game
Definitely - being stuck in one place is rough!
Agreed. I keep seeing people who love Shadowdark because it is light and fast, then they want to add all the crap back into it and essentially just make it D&D 5e again.
It's a definite risk, for sure!
Weird it is only offered in 360p resolution
It's been super weird all day! It wouldn't let me upload, and then it let me know that it was having trouble uploading. I dunno man. :D
I see more resolution options now. UA-cam just being slow on encoding.
Glad to hear it!
In the first 10 mins of this video you worked through something I've been trying to articulate for my entire UA-cam "career" 🥲
It's what i love about games like ShadowDark and why I've mostly given up on "power gaming"
I'm glad I could help!!