I had to comment on the manufacturing debate. In manufacturing we call costs associated with development, tooling, setting up factory etc as “non-recurring” costs. These are the costs you pay to setup, develop, and start a product manufacturing process. Your “recurring” costs are your labor to build a product, the materials required to build it, and shipping/packaging etc. ie costs to build 1 unit. Obviously recurring costs are captured by the sale price of the unit but you also have to amortize the non-recurring costs and tack on some margin for profit. The idea you can equate clothing to a vehicle in terms of manufacturing are asinine. There is very little non-recurring costs for an existing clothing production line. So the majority of the cost in clothing is recurring cost and profit. A vehicle is completely different as the development (engineering) and tooling non-recurring costs can match or even outweigh the recurring costs of things like raw materials for a vehicle.
Exactly, thank you. Not that Tony cares, but the R&D for a new vehicle, independent from the cost to build the parts once R&D is done, is completely different for a car vs a shirt. Unless his buddy is developing new breeds of plants for better threads, and new fabrics from those threads, and some new synthetic fibers for other portions, Tony is overconfident because he is ignorant.
@@austinsand8163 r&d? the engine is from the 296, the hybrid powerplant is from the sf90 and 296 the carbon fibre has been developed and mastered by them for many years? what r&d? theyre one of the biggest car companies on earth, designing the body work, safety and perfecting the aerodynamics is not 3.5million worth for each car lmfao everybody knows it costs alot to design a car but to say THIS car is some r&d, engineering marvel worth 3.5 million just give it a break ffs
@@Diontb They gone the absolute cheap way to make the most amount of money. Used a already existing engine (modified), hybrid system from their 400k dollars sportscar and used a chasis which has been existed for a loong time. They did the car to make just revenue, at least it is what it feels like from my perspective by looking at the car
Indeed, Tony has no idea what he is talking about. He is a successful car sales person that also became an entrepreneur in that area, just that. Your explanation is great, and that also explains why VW was losing money on each Veyron it was selling.
Someone said the halo car by rarri has been ruined by billionaires because the car for the "public" can't be better than the billionaire bespoke cars and i fully get it.
I don't just add ridiculous amounts of customization and boom you can have good looking production cars snd specisl project cars. Lets just say what it is, we miss pininfarona, it doesn't mean we don't still love ferrari
I've been saying the same thing. Ferrari is living off reputation. No other manufacturer could release and sell a 6 cylinder car (Le Mans heritage or not) and charge 3 million plus. I guarantee Ferrari will release a V12 mid-engine SP model and charge over 5 million for it. Just like the XX name, the halo Ferrari's are now just a naming gimmick.
@@cookedit I agree with your first input. I don't think Ferrari will do a V12 down the line. It would kill their own argument about the V12 not being able to fit, because all the aero.
For the first time ever I skipped a part of your pod. You arguing about manufacturing costs bored me to f’in tears. Thankfully x2 speed is a thing. As for the rest, brilliant!
3 дні тому
They take an hour to go over 3 minutes of material. All of their shit sucks.
Valkyrie makes the F80 look like an SF90 and W1 looks like a 720. There’s nothing on earth coming close to the Valkyrie. It doesn’t look like it was made by humanity.
Because it's a race car with number plates, it shouldn't have been road legal. It's unbearable, the sound inside is just too loud and only the outsiders get to enjoy the sound and that too at a speed which isn't legal on public roads.
@@steven_taylor_ Ferrari had their chance to make one. They have a Lemans engine but it just looks too much like the other Ferrari’s. Park the Valkyrie next to a DBS superleggera, doesn’t even look like the same manufacturer.
@zn9861 look when it comes to hypercars, maintenance and reliability shouldn't even be a topic. Let's leave that for cars that normal can afford where maintenance and reliability is actually they consider when buying a car.
For the amount of money, in terms of a car being an "event" a Valkyrie or T.50 just seems so much more special. At this point if the sound of the car is not particularly exciting and it becomes about choosing either performance or "emotion", I think you can buy cars that do better on one of those fronts for less money. Unless you want to buy it because of the badge, then of course there is no alternative. And I do think that is a large factor, understandably.
Valkyrie is unbearable to drive, is way too loud from the inside and is only sonorous to the outsiders that too at a very high speed which isn't legal on public roads.
@steven_taylor_ I'm sure you are right about the driving. But I mean, compare the Valkyrie to the rest of the Aston Martin line-up, heck, compare it to another hypercar. It's such a different breed, bespoke engine, Adrian Newey designed, limited to 150 cars. It seems more like a special car to me than the F80 for about the same money. I'll probably get a price on my head for saying this but the F80 seems like a hyper 296GTB. Again I am not talking about the driving experience, I am talking about how the cars come across to me. Also the LaFerrari and Enzo in their time seemed so much more special.
@@vanlos9063 It's definitely different because it's a racecar with number plates and right now owners are experiencing issues with that car. To me, a better v12 hybrid hypercar for the road is Laferrari. The F80 will be more like a road legal 499P with the performance it has rather than a hyper 296, as they all share the same F163 v6.
@@steven_taylor_ I have seen owners driving it just fine, most reviews say that outside of vibrations and noise at low speed, the car is great to drive, which makes sense, it's a homologation hypercar if you buy it to drive around the tight streets of Monaco or Mayfair instead of an open road then that's your own fault. It's still more of an event than the F80 is. Park them side by side and outside of the Ferrari badge, no one will know it's there. The Valkyrie is much closer to the Valkyrie LMH than the F80 will ever be to the 499P too.
@@F1ll1nTh3Blanks You just can't drive it enthusiastically without having a noise cancellation headphone. A LaFerrari would be much more enjoyable. I will say that the F80 will hold its own if it's parked beside the Valkyrie. The Valkyrie is a racecar with number plates and understandably it's closer to the Valkyrie LMH and the F80 was about having racing technology (Le Mans winning) in a road legal car.
I attended the WEC race in Austin Texas this year and I have to say the Porsche GT3 that was competing in the race had almost the most muted exhaust sound of all the race cars that came past me. I listened to it lap after lap and it sounded nothing like previous versions of the GT3 race car. I guess this is the direction that internal combustion performance cars are destined to be reduced to.
@@BakersTaste😂, we clutching at straws here. I heard an SF90 pulls way at the lights and it sounded like a straight piped bmw 330 diesel. If the 458 was released today at the same price as the sf90, I'm taking the 458. For that money I want theatre's, not just crazy speed
@@biafo4541 I will tell you one thing, the 458, currently, costs much less than the launch price of the SF90, why don't you buy it and prove your point?
My son bought a car last year on finance and because he didn’t use the dealerships finance and found his own, the dealership charged a fee of £300 because he didn’t use theirs. I understand they need to make money but thought that was ridiculous.
I know it's all subjective and down to personal taste etc, but contrast the way these two shat on the GMA T.50 in a pretty mean spirited way , with Tony moaning about the price of them saying he has no interest in cars like these as he can't afford them, but put a Ferrari (or Porsche) badge on the thing then they can't get down on their knees fast enough and give those two brands a masive gobble till it drips out their mouths A lot of the praise they give to the F80 were the same things they were bitching about on the T.50. I think both these guys are more wind up merchants than balanced or fair car crictics tbh
So true. To my eyes the Ferrari looks terrible. It looks like a concept car that found its way into a 90/00s sci-fi film… Minority Report. Sam basically loves Ferrari, nothing wrong with that, he’d love it no matter what they produced. If the F80 had a McLaren batch on the nose with a V6 I think he’d find any number of areas to criticise it.
@@skramer6483 if a car is not to their taste then fair enough, but it's the way they bash the brands who make those cars that's not to their liking which is uncalled for imo. they've obviously not driven either a F80 or T.50. yet they know they're gonna love the F80, just cause it's a Ferrari yet Tony called the T.50 (and the Mclaren F1) a pile of poo, it's a good job GMA and Ferrari aint competing for the same customers
@@pl-jn1fn totally agree… if it’s not a Porsche or Ferrari it’s never going to be as good as those brands, not so much in there eyes… they spout a lot of info as facts… when the Artura was launched Sam said some things, presumptuous, which were totally incorrect. In a later video he had to front up and acknowledge he was completely wrong. He does admit to being a total Ferrari and Porsche nut but I don’t think either of them realise how they sometimes come across when talking about other brands. By all means have an opinion but don’t give it on aspects they don’t have detail off or just say… beyond Ferrari & Porsche were really not interested in what other manufacturers bring to the party.
It does not make sense to compare the development cost of the AMG One engine and the engine in the F80, the engine of the F80 might be derived from the 499P but it was never a race engine in the first place, it was the engine of the 296. If the V6 is sufficient in the 499P it is also because the Hypercar series is highly regulated in terms of ultimate horsepower than a car can produce and because BOP is there to ensure that every cars are more or less in the same ballpark. Even if the idea to put an F1 engine in the AMG One was a stupid one in the first place, the cost of bringing F1 technology to the road car is incommensurably higher than bringing the road derived V6 of the 296 to the F80. And we should not forgot that more or less 15 years ago the Peugeot 908 FAP made a time that was more than 10 seconds faster than the 499P around Le Mans with a diesel V12 and that the previous generation of hybrid proto was more than 15 seconds faster around the track than the 499P. The 499P might be the Le Mans winning car but from an engine technology perspective it is a far cry from what we can achieve today, hence why it is possible to modify and use a the road engine of the 296 in the 499P. Whereas F1 current engine are still more or less the best engineers can achieve from a racing V6 nowadays, even if no one likes the sound of those engines. That’s why it was quite a stupid idea from the top execs at Mercedes to agree on trying to use the same engine in the road car than in the AMG One, current F1 engine are not made to be use daily, that it is in the end, non withstanding all the modifications that were made on the engines, it is still more or less a disposable engine that needs to be change every 50000 kms…
I think the real problem with the F80 is the engine. Although there is undoubtedly more tech in this car than the LaF, the downsized engine feels like a step backwards and lacks the emotion of a true Ferrari halo car. And with Ferrari putting the v12 in their SUV, we know they could have put it in this car as well
Step backwards? It's 499P hypercar basically have the same V6 engine. F1 is V6. The AMG ONE just broke the record with a V6. How is that a step back. V12 engines are heavier l, less efficient and basically for GT type cars and not these new hyper cars. Emission regulations and noise regulations are a thing for big manufacturers. Blame them.
@@Mufc_Kenny try rereading my comment slowly and without your favorite Ferrari undies on. I acknowledged the tech was better and said it FEELS like a step down because of the boring V6 engine. And you're right, V12 engines are heavier and less efficient which is why hyper cars such as the Valkyrie, SP3, and T50 dont use them right? And the Bugatti Tourbillon must be a six cylinder as well? Must be emissions. Im sure there are no exceptions to limited production models. Except that Ferrari put the V12 in their production SUV...This is a cash grab. It's a 296 GTB with a body kit.
Nobody expected Sam to say anything bad about Ferrari right? It could be the ugliest thing ever made with a vacuum cleaner sounding motor and he’d say it’s the best thing ever made. I’m so sick of him and Shmee being Ferrari’s free PR department.
the reason why the F80 needed a V12 is so people can replace the exhaust and hear the V12. The Novitec Ferrari 296 with a Race Exhaust-System, sounds great for a V6 so I know the F80 will sound better yet go check out any Novitec V12 Ferrari and listen to the V12 music.
I really struggle with the cost of R&D arguments in today's world. It isn't as expensive as most think, the core of R&D is now digital simulation and culmination of data. Most electronic components are bought off a menu and then calibrated accordingly again mostly from simulation. Aero is almost soley derived from digital simulation and to be honest looking at that new Ferrari it absolutely screams of a car born from software. Tyre R&D is actually still relatively complex but is still 99% data driven. Modern cars are now being developed in such away that actual human touch and feel is all but removed and it absolutely shows in the reduction of driver engagement and fulfilment. Design a car digitally expect it to drive digitally. That's where we're at nowadays.
I though the issue with the FCA wasnt just about commission, it was about the fact car dealers set whatever apr they felt like. So, ask you youre monthly budget, then milk the apr upwards for some customers and reap the additional profit. Ive made a full time living from affiliate marketing and have no issue with commission, what i do have an issue with is dishonesty and lack of transparency. If a car dealer makes £1000 from a commission and tells me that, i have no issue. Asjusting the apr to suit their needs and hiding the commission from the customer is the issue.
The cost of developing a halo car isn't just for that car but for the next 5-10 years of the other cars within the brand. The 12 Cylindri Speciale or TDF will be fitted with F80 brakes, suspension components etc etc.
It's awful and Tony is right. My guess is Sam is too close to the manufacturers these days and doesn't want to offend or worse still get blacklisted from events etc.
I actually agree with Tony for once on the manufacturing stuff. The F80 won't cost much more than their regular supercars. 99% of companys reuse and repackage to reduce new development and testing. It's one of the easiest places to make savings.
You’re right the jump isn’t as big because of how good every other car in the lineups have gotten. But these cars aren’t for driving anyways. It’s for hype and Ferrari investors to look at in their garages.
Just a comment on my experience with owning an EV for the last year. Mine's a Tesla Model 3, which I have as a company car, I live in a modern apartment block in London and we have electric car chargers in the car park. As a company car there are of course tax benefits, but most importantly I don't need to worry about insurance & depreciation. 90% of the time I charge the car at home (for free) & on the rare occasion I have to do more than 340 miles, the Tesla network is first class. I would however never own one personally and wouldn't own one if I couldn't charge at home. Great for long distances and well for short ones...I take the GT4 :)
Yet again Tony shoots himself in the foot and cannot see how clueless he is! You 2 guys speak with so much authority about an area of the industry you have no insight into, but talk as though you are serial hypercar customers. The bloke down the pub probably has better insight into the whole subject!
FCA. Point was that the commission or fees where never disclosed and add costs to the buyer. Any other financial product has any fees disclosed. Every time I have used a mortgage and etc, they have to disclose the money they will make. And this usually is from the mortgage lender etc, not the customer. So dealers made money under hand at the cost of the buyer.
Just on the FCA ruling there is one key bit of detail that customers will need to understand and educated on. It isn't a cost free exercise for dealer to be able to sell car finance, it isn't just pure profit. Dealers/brokers have to register with the FCA and they have to remain compliant to do so. This involves training fees, legal obligations and usually, unless directly authorised by the FCA, paying a substantial amount of money to be an Appointed Representative of a firm that it is. If a dealer does decide to be directly authorised this usually means employing people or an amount of people to ensure they remain compliant in the absence of being an AR of an appropriate firm. I fear that of this isn't gotten across to customers in the right way dealers will have a tough time retaining the finance income they have earned and some cases as Tony says absolutely rely upon.
Have to agree with Tony on some extent with the manufacturing costing. Ferrari have done most of the R&D with other models as this F80 isn't groundbreaking; they have the autoclaves, technicians etc in place for carbon tubs and what not. Most difficult thing to make were likely the carbon wheels.
Price = dictated by demand, demand = dictated by looks and other factors. So yeah, they will care about the looks. Not intrinsically no, but instrumentally. I can guarantee you that in 10 years, because of the way the F80 looks and it's engine, it'll be worth a third of what the LaFerarri is.
Ha ha - this all has to end some time and somewhere. The road cars without regulations are become faster than racing cars. All these hyper cars are wonderful things, but if we’re honest we’d all have much more fun punting a Lotus Elise down our favourite B road.
Regarding the Finance side. The Docs will be E Sign rather than Wet sign and sent to the customer prior to handover so the customer can read them in their own time. The only time Wet sign would be an option would be if the E Docs didn't work and the customer would still have to sign them prior to handover day..
34:20, agree with your comment Sam about the UK being anti-business/ profit however! There is a line and I think sometimes businesses cross and make too much money, that commission for car finance is directly passed onto the customer, if we’re talking thousands per car then I think people will get sick of it
Jep totally agree that the step in between te cars is to small for these cars to really impress. En dont forget they dont just have the sf90 below this. They also made the icona series daytona SP3, I think of they had not done that and now came out with the sp3 people would have loved it Same with the McLaren I mean McLaren come out with another hypercar every month it feels like, Senna sabre, solus GT, speedtail Now for Porsche the step is actually nice because they havent made a hypercar since the 918 spyder
It has definitely traded in the charisma and cohesiveness that the LaF had in exchange for raw performance and technological superiority. The V6 is beyond advanced in comparison to the V12s, but it does not yet have the cache that they do
I think Ferrari could have made a monumental/stupendous car, even with a V6. But they made poor choices this time. The V6 could have been turbo, revving up to 9k. It could have been super lightweight. It could have had Pininfarina's hand in it, and it could have been made in very small numbers.
I think it looks mega, almost a GroupC type design. Would be amazing to see it in person! As with the W1. Some of these cars (think 720S) cannot be properly appreciated by photos.
They need to stop chasing numbers and chase emotion!!! If the F80 had a 11k RPM redline the best sounding six cylinder we would not hate as much or at all IMO!!
@@Gangreen167 Yes, ask yourself again and also ask are you really going to explore 11k rpm all the time or most of the time you drive on public roads with a speed limit?
@@steven_taylor_ I glad you said it, Ferrari instead of chasing number that almost no one is going reach they should of gone for the emotion every car guy loves THE SOUND of a high revving engine!! Perfect example Porsche GT3!!!
@@Gangreen167 Wdym? Just look at the W1, same formula as a decade old car. And the F80's v6 has a higher red line than that of the GT3 and Porsche also chased numbers with the GT3.
I dont understand why these hypercars have to adhere to the strict emissions laws as the number of them being produced is so low it doesn't make one iota to climate change, if thats a thing 😊
Yeah, that's the problem. You can have as much power as you want from a turbo V6/V8. But you need a V12 for passion and emotion. Revuelto has the drive train that the F80 should have had.
It’s just ugly and not pretty enough. The halo cars don’t need to be the best track weapons, they need to be the best looking and best sounding. Pretty over function imo
Ferrari charge as much for the F80 as they can. Customers for Ferrari halo cars will pay whatever they need to to get it and have extremely deep pockets to do so. I suspect they are making a staggering profit on the F80 compared to say an SF90 or even a Laferrari. I appreciate development cost etc are spread over a smaller number of units than the standard cars. But there is no way the cost of developing the F80 was double the price a Laferrari cost a customer to buy (and if it did it wasn’t worth it). I think Ferrari are just gouging more of the day 1 profit folks who bought these cars used to get. After all why give this bonus to customers when you can take it for yourself.
I get what Sam is saying on the manufacturing point of view, I think what Tony is trying to get across is that Ferrari already have the RD so shouldn't cost as much to make. Also, the customer is not going to give 2 sh*** about RD, explain RD to the average Joe who will be doing no more than the legal speed limit. Both V6 hybrid £200k price tag looks better than £3.2m on paper.
This morning or yesterday I saw a headline pass by about Porsche saying that Porsche is thinking about putting ICEs in their EV models. Don't ask me who claimed that, I only read the headline as I was scrolling.
I feel like this is in a somewhat similar vain to the Senna being based on performance before looks. Ferrari as a brand has not really stepped into this realm often. The XX cars has the more extreme look but the regular cars of the big 5 are all still beautiful.
I just dont see, why the F80 is 3 million more than the SF90. Both boxy design, both 4 digit horsepower, both all wheel drive, both twinturbo, both hybrid but the SF90 has two more cylinders.
@@technom3598 There are cars for under 100K with electric turbos... The SF90 is just to competent for Ferraris own sake, no idea why they thought they needed that in their lineup
I think the F80 design is friggin awsome. A bit bummed about the engine choice but im not a customer anyway so whatever, atleast a v6 fits the 80:s retro look.
I hate the blocky styiling of the F80. Laferrari and even the SP3 were both curvy and voluptuous but the F80 is just an awkward slab. And that black bar thing from the dodici cilindri looks stupid. I like the dodici cilindri but the only thing I really wanted carried over from that is the V12. You were right to say that these sorts of cars can't be so groundbreaking anymore because "regular" supercars are so fast now, so what they should do is make their halo cars exciting. Give us a V12 and a manual... Give us another F50 is what I'm basically saying. We've only got a few years of petrol cars left, we may as well make them as special as possible, and then focus on speed once everything goes electric.
Tony is completely right on the who much they spent on already existing R&D vs for how much they sell the F80. McLaren W1 is in the same boat also. I fell this will be the last Holy Trinity of "conventional" supercar brands. 24:25 muted SP3 with a N/A V12 still sounds better then a TT V6. Add Novitec exhaust on any 2022+ Ferrari OPF and it will sound glorious. We all heard how 499P sounds ("same" engine as F80). It's nothing special in sound department. On idle it sounds like wet fart A lot of EV producing European car manufacturers doubling down on EVs. What a shocker
51:46 value of property wouldn’t make any difference, cost of repair would make the difference. Also central London has lots of high value cars you could hit (Ferrari, rolls Royce, Bentley all on one street).
GMA T.50 & T.33 has entered that chat at 24:38 Also Porsche just released their N/A 2025 GT3's that will still make noise...no? What part of a V6 is exotic...take Godzilla/Nissan GTR for example, it was destroying exotic cars punching up...but no one would dare call it exotic for fear Ferrari fan boys would attack them in the comments and a sub Reddit...no? Do I need to mention Jaguar XJ220 too? Porsche 918 came out with some of the same hate too....until it started breaking records and embarrassing the La Ferrari and the P1? Hands down this is one of the most disappointing things Ferrari has ever done with the V6 F80 IMO.
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Taking a SP3 over that Lego Senna Ferrari
No way, F80 all day
I prefer the better looking + NA V12 over the boxy modified hybrid V6🔥
@@XxApo70xX Agree, the SP3 with its NA V12 is awesome.
The F80 is special when you see it for real it will look great will never afford one though
I had to comment on the manufacturing debate.
In manufacturing we call costs associated with development, tooling, setting up factory etc as “non-recurring” costs. These are the costs you pay to setup, develop, and start a product manufacturing process.
Your “recurring” costs are your labor to build a product, the materials required to build it, and shipping/packaging etc. ie costs to build 1 unit.
Obviously recurring costs are captured by the sale price of the unit but you also have to amortize the non-recurring costs and tack on some margin for profit.
The idea you can equate clothing to a vehicle in terms of manufacturing are asinine. There is very little non-recurring costs for an existing clothing production line. So the majority of the cost in clothing is recurring cost and profit. A vehicle is completely different as the development (engineering) and tooling non-recurring costs can match or even outweigh the recurring costs of things like raw materials for a vehicle.
Exactly, thank you. Not that Tony cares, but the R&D for a new vehicle, independent from the cost to build the parts once R&D is done, is completely different for a car vs a shirt. Unless his buddy is developing new breeds of plants for better threads, and new fabrics from those threads, and some new synthetic fibers for other portions, Tony is overconfident because he is ignorant.
@@austinsand8163 r&d? the engine is from the 296, the hybrid powerplant is from the sf90 and 296 the carbon fibre has been developed and mastered by them for many years? what r&d? theyre one of the biggest car companies on earth, designing the body work, safety and perfecting the aerodynamics is not 3.5million worth for each car lmfao
everybody knows it costs alot to design a car but to say THIS car is some r&d, engineering marvel worth 3.5 million just give it a break ffs
@@Diontb They gone the absolute cheap way to make the most amount of money. Used a already existing engine (modified), hybrid system from their 400k dollars sportscar and used a chasis which has been existed for a loong time. They did the car to make just revenue, at least it is what it feels like from my perspective by looking at the car
The principles are the same, the scale, however, is different.
Indeed, Tony has no idea what he is talking about. He is a successful car sales person that also became an entrepreneur in that area, just that. Your explanation is great, and that also explains why VW was losing money on each Veyron it was selling.
That manufacturing debate was rather painful.. and long
That's because Sam doesn't want to upset ferrari.. Tony was right 😂
And totally irrational
Sam just keep saying Ferrari is good better best. Some motoring journalists just don’t want to say bad things about Ferrari…
Someone said the halo car by rarri has been ruined by billionaires because the car for the "public" can't be better than the billionaire bespoke cars and i fully get it.
Stop calling it a rarri. You sound like an imbecile
I don't just add ridiculous amounts of customization and boom you can have good looking production cars snd specisl project cars. Lets just say what it is, we miss pininfarona, it doesn't mean we don't still love ferrari
Wut
I've been saying the same thing. Ferrari is living off reputation. No other manufacturer could release and sell a 6 cylinder car (Le Mans heritage or not) and charge 3 million plus. I guarantee Ferrari will release a V12 mid-engine SP model and charge over 5 million for it. Just like the XX name, the halo Ferrari's are now just a naming gimmick.
@@cookedit I agree with your first input. I don't think Ferrari will do a V12 down the line. It would kill their own argument about the V12 not being able to fit, because all the aero.
For the first time ever I skipped a part of your pod. You arguing about manufacturing costs bored me to f’in tears. Thankfully x2 speed is a thing. As for the rest, brilliant!
They take an hour to go over 3 minutes of material. All of their shit sucks.
Valkyrie makes the F80 look like an SF90 and W1 looks like a 720. There’s nothing on earth coming close to the Valkyrie. It doesn’t look like it was made by humanity.
Because it's a race car with number plates, it shouldn't have been road legal. It's unbearable, the sound inside is just too loud and only the outsiders get to enjoy the sound and that too at a speed which isn't legal on public roads.
Valkyrie doesn‘t work and maintanance is way too high. Many are trying to get rid of them already.
@@steven_taylor_ Ferrari had their chance to make one. They have a Lemans engine but it just looks too much like the other Ferrari’s. Park the Valkyrie next to a DBS superleggera, doesn’t even look like the same manufacturer.
@@zn9861 Ive seen way more Valkyrie online driving the streets of Monaco, England, Dubai, now Florida than I have AMG ONE, Jesko,P72 etc.
@zn9861 look when it comes to hypercars, maintenance and reliability shouldn't even be a topic. Let's leave that for cars that normal can afford where maintenance and reliability is actually they consider when buying a car.
For the amount of money, in terms of a car being an "event" a Valkyrie or T.50 just seems so much more special.
At this point if the sound of the car is not particularly exciting and it becomes about choosing either performance or "emotion", I think you can buy cars that do better on one of those fronts for less money. Unless you want to buy it because of the badge, then of course there is no alternative. And I do think that is a large factor, understandably.
Valkyrie is unbearable to drive, is way too loud from the inside and is only sonorous to the outsiders that too at a very high speed which isn't legal on public roads.
@steven_taylor_ I'm sure you are right about the driving. But I mean, compare the Valkyrie to the rest of the Aston Martin line-up, heck, compare it to another hypercar.
It's such a different breed, bespoke engine, Adrian Newey designed, limited to 150 cars.
It seems more like a special car to me than the F80 for about the same money.
I'll probably get a price on my head for saying this but the F80 seems like a hyper 296GTB.
Again I am not talking about the driving experience, I am talking about how the cars come across to me.
Also the LaFerrari and Enzo in their time seemed so much more special.
@@vanlos9063 It's definitely different because it's a racecar with number plates and right now owners are experiencing issues with that car. To me, a better v12 hybrid hypercar for the road is Laferrari. The F80 will be more like a road legal 499P with the performance it has rather than a hyper 296, as they all share the same F163 v6.
@@steven_taylor_ I have seen owners driving it just fine, most reviews say that outside of vibrations and noise at low speed, the car is great to drive, which makes sense, it's a homologation hypercar if you buy it to drive around the tight streets of Monaco or Mayfair instead of an open road then that's your own fault.
It's still more of an event than the F80 is. Park them side by side and outside of the Ferrari badge, no one will know it's there. The Valkyrie is much closer to the Valkyrie LMH than the F80 will ever be to the 499P too.
@@F1ll1nTh3Blanks You just can't drive it enthusiastically without having a noise cancellation headphone. A LaFerrari would be much more enjoyable.
I will say that the F80 will hold its own if it's parked beside the Valkyrie. The Valkyrie is a racecar with number plates and understandably it's closer to the Valkyrie LMH and the F80 was about having racing technology (Le Mans winning) in a road legal car.
I went and listened to the Daytona SP3 vs. F80 soundtrack. It’s a WORLD of difference, Sam
I mean the F80 doesnt even basically make a sound from what i heard from a few videos
@@rml4474I think it’s safe to assume some videos have been maliciously edited to make it sound even quieter than it actually is for clicks.
I attended the WEC race in Austin Texas this year and I have to say the Porsche GT3 that was competing in the race had almost the most muted exhaust sound of all the race cars that came past me. I listened to it lap after lap and it sounded nothing like previous versions of the GT3 race car. I guess this is the direction that internal combustion performance cars are destined to be reduced to.
@@BakersTaste😂, we clutching at straws here.
I heard an SF90 pulls way at the lights and it sounded like a straight piped bmw 330 diesel.
If the 458 was released today at the same price as the sf90, I'm taking the 458. For that money I want theatre's, not just crazy speed
@@biafo4541 I will tell you one thing, the 458, currently, costs much less than the launch price of the SF90, why don't you buy it and prove your point?
You and Tony debating about manufacturing reminds me of Clarkson and May having an argument ahaha
😂
They aren't in the same ballpark
I couldn't agree more with Sams take on the car finance issue. Great take that i share with you and I find is rare amongst the public.
Well worth listening to Chris Harris and friends car podcast. They have a good section on the F90.
My son bought a car last year on finance and because he didn’t use the dealerships finance and found his own, the dealership charged a fee of £300 because he didn’t use theirs. I understand they need to make money but thought that was ridiculous.
Vote with your feet. I wouldn't have bought the car.
I know it's all subjective and down to personal taste etc, but contrast the way these two shat on the GMA T.50 in a pretty mean spirited way , with Tony moaning about the price of them saying he has no interest in cars like these as he can't afford them, but put a Ferrari (or Porsche) badge on the thing then they can't get down on their knees fast enough and give those two brands a masive gobble till it drips out their mouths
A lot of the praise they give to the F80 were the same things they were bitching about on the T.50.
I think both these guys are more wind up merchants than balanced or fair car crictics tbh
So true. To my eyes the Ferrari looks terrible. It looks like a concept car that found its way into a 90/00s sci-fi film… Minority Report.
Sam basically loves Ferrari, nothing wrong with that, he’d love it no matter what they produced.
If the F80 had a McLaren batch on the nose with a V6 I think he’d find any number of areas to criticise it.
@@skramer6483 if a car is not to their taste then fair enough, but it's the way they bash the brands who make those cars that's not to their liking which is uncalled for imo.
they've obviously not driven either a F80 or T.50. yet they know they're gonna love the F80, just cause it's a Ferrari yet Tony called the T.50 (and the Mclaren F1) a pile of poo, it's a good job GMA and Ferrari aint competing for the same customers
T50 is boring as …… with way too much noise.
@@EightyFour-s3z and? I think it sounds fantastic. each to their own I guess, but just don't bash it to make a point
@@pl-jn1fn totally agree… if it’s not a Porsche or Ferrari it’s never going to be as good as those brands, not so much in there eyes… they spout a lot of info as facts… when the Artura was launched Sam said some things, presumptuous, which were totally incorrect. In a later video he had to front up and acknowledge he was completely wrong. He does admit to being a total Ferrari and Porsche nut but I don’t think either of them realise how they sometimes come across when talking about other brands. By all means have an opinion but don’t give it on aspects they don’t have detail off or just say… beyond Ferrari & Porsche were really not interested in what other manufacturers bring to the party.
It does not make sense to compare the development cost of the AMG One engine and the engine in the F80, the engine of the F80 might be derived from the 499P but it was never a race engine in the first place, it was the engine of the 296. If the V6 is sufficient in the 499P it is also because the Hypercar series is highly regulated in terms of ultimate horsepower than a car can produce and because BOP is there to ensure that every cars are more or less in the same ballpark. Even if the idea to put an F1 engine in the AMG One was a stupid one in the first place, the cost of bringing F1 technology to the road car is incommensurably higher than bringing the road derived V6 of the 296 to the F80. And we should not forgot that more or less 15 years ago the Peugeot 908 FAP made a time that was more than 10 seconds faster than the 499P around Le Mans with a diesel V12 and that the previous generation of hybrid proto was more than 15 seconds faster around the track than the 499P. The 499P might be the Le Mans winning car but from an engine technology perspective it is a far cry from what we can achieve today, hence why it is possible to modify and use a the road engine of the 296 in the 499P. Whereas F1 current engine are still more or less the best engineers can achieve from a racing V6 nowadays, even if no one likes the sound of those engines. That’s why it was quite a stupid idea from the top execs at Mercedes to agree on trying to use the same engine in the road car than in the AMG One, current F1 engine are not made to be use daily, that it is in the end, non withstanding all the modifications that were made on the engines, it is still more or less a disposable engine that needs to be change every 50000 kms…
I think the real problem with the F80 is the engine. Although there is undoubtedly more tech in this car than the LaF, the downsized engine feels like a step backwards and lacks the emotion of a true Ferrari halo car. And with Ferrari putting the v12 in their SUV, we know they could have put it in this car as well
Step backwards? It's 499P hypercar basically have the same V6 engine. F1 is V6. The AMG ONE just broke the record with a V6. How is that a step back. V12 engines are heavier l, less efficient and basically for GT type cars and not these new hyper cars. Emission regulations and noise regulations are a thing for big manufacturers. Blame them.
It’s Ferraris best engine, fuck the v12 shits slow and heavy
@@Mufc_Kenny try rereading my comment slowly and without your favorite Ferrari undies on. I acknowledged the tech was better and said it FEELS like a step down because of the boring V6 engine. And you're right, V12 engines are heavier and less efficient which is why hyper cars such as the Valkyrie, SP3, and T50 dont use them right? And the Bugatti Tourbillon must be a six cylinder as well? Must be emissions. Im sure there are no exceptions to limited production models. Except that Ferrari put the V12 in their production SUV...This is a cash grab. It's a 296 GTB with a body kit.
@@dddd-uk4vn this is such a wild take lmao enjoy your Teslas buddy
@@killerseals “an engine derived from actual racing prestige is worse because noise 👶”
It seems fitting you're talking about the F80 on Halloween 😅
Your videos are not just content, they are real intellectual food. Thank you for your creativity and efforts!🤗😸🐘
Nobody expected Sam to say anything bad about Ferrari right? It could be the ugliest thing ever made with a vacuum cleaner sounding motor and he’d say it’s the best thing ever made. I’m so sick of him and Shmee being Ferrari’s free PR department.
Can’t wait to get Tony’s opinion on SF80!😂
Bring back the ICE Cayman/Boxster. Also, the SF90 is such a badass ride. As is the 296.
the reason why the F80 needed a V12 is so people can replace the exhaust and hear the V12. The Novitec Ferrari 296 with a Race Exhaust-System, sounds great for a V6 so I know the F80 will sound better yet go check out any Novitec V12 Ferrari and listen to the V12 music.
loved the manufacturing debate
I really struggle with the cost of R&D arguments in today's world. It isn't as expensive as most think, the core of R&D is now digital simulation and culmination of data. Most electronic components are bought off a menu and then calibrated accordingly again mostly from simulation. Aero is almost soley derived from digital simulation and to be honest looking at that new Ferrari it absolutely screams of a car born from software. Tyre R&D is actually still relatively complex but is still 99% data driven. Modern cars are now being developed in such away that actual human touch and feel is all but removed and it absolutely shows in the reduction of driver engagement and fulfilment. Design a car digitally expect it to drive digitally. That's where we're at nowadays.
bingo
I don’t hate it and I don’t love it. For that money and being a halo car it should have a V12. 🤷♂️
I though the issue with the FCA wasnt just about commission, it was about the fact car dealers set whatever apr they felt like. So, ask you youre monthly budget, then milk the apr upwards for some customers and reap the additional profit. Ive made a full time living from affiliate marketing and have no issue with commission, what i do have an issue with is dishonesty and lack of transparency. If a car dealer makes £1000 from a commission and tells me that, i have no issue. Asjusting the apr to suit their needs and hiding the commission from the customer is the issue.
Tony is right - the production vs 2.4 billion they charge for 799 pieces is peanuts
The cost of developing a halo car isn't just for that car but for the next 5-10 years of the other cars within the brand. The 12 Cylindri Speciale or TDF will be fitted with F80 brakes, suspension components etc etc.
It's awful and Tony is right. My guess is Sam is too close to the manufacturers these days and doesn't want to offend or worse still get blacklisted from events etc.
I agree with Tony
I actually agree with Tony for once on the manufacturing stuff. The F80 won't cost much more than their regular supercars. 99% of companys reuse and repackage to reduce new development and testing. It's one of the easiest places to make savings.
You’re right the jump isn’t as big because of how good every other car in the lineups have gotten. But these cars aren’t for driving anyways. It’s for hype and Ferrari investors to look at in their garages.
Yeh but it's sad because F40/F50 etc were not built for that reason. They were drivers cars
Waited a lonnng week for this episode
Just a comment on my experience with owning an EV for the last year. Mine's a Tesla Model 3, which I have as a company car, I live in a modern apartment block in London and we have electric car chargers in the car park.
As a company car there are of course tax benefits, but most importantly I don't need to worry about insurance & depreciation. 90% of the time I charge the car at home (for free) & on the rare occasion I have to do more than 340 miles, the Tesla network is first class.
I would however never own one personally and wouldn't own one if I couldn't charge at home. Great for long distances and well for short ones...I take the GT4 :)
Yet again Tony shoots himself in the foot and cannot see how clueless he is! You 2 guys speak with so much authority about an area of the industry you have no insight into, but talk as though you are serial hypercar customers. The bloke down the pub probably has better insight into the whole subject!
Agreed like most UA-camrs are they ill informed amateurs
FCA. Point was that the commission or fees where never disclosed and add costs to the buyer. Any other financial product has any fees disclosed. Every time I have used a mortgage and etc, they have to disclose the money they will make. And this usually is from the mortgage lender etc, not the customer. So dealers made money under hand at the cost of the buyer.
Just on the FCA ruling there is one key bit of detail that customers will need to understand and educated on. It isn't a cost free exercise for dealer to be able to sell car finance, it isn't just pure profit. Dealers/brokers have to register with the FCA and they have to remain compliant to do so. This involves training fees, legal obligations and usually, unless directly authorised by the FCA, paying a substantial amount of money to be an Appointed Representative of a firm that it is. If a dealer does decide to be directly authorised this usually means employing people or an amount of people to ensure they remain compliant in the absence of being an AR of an appropriate firm. I fear that of this isn't gotten across to customers in the right way dealers will have a tough time retaining the finance income they have earned and some cases as Tony says absolutely rely upon.
Have to agree with Tony on some extent with the manufacturing costing. Ferrari have done most of the R&D with other models as this F80 isn't groundbreaking; they have the autoclaves, technicians etc in place for carbon tubs and what not. Most difficult thing to make were likely the carbon wheels.
The people buying F80s do not care what it looks like,they just want the investment
Price = dictated by demand, demand = dictated by looks and other factors. So yeah, they will care about the looks. Not intrinsically no, but instrumentally. I can guarantee you that in 10 years, because of the way the F80 looks and it's engine, it'll be worth a third of what the LaFerarri is.
Ha ha - this all has to end some time and somewhere. The road cars without regulations are become faster than racing cars. All these hyper cars are wonderful things, but if we’re honest we’d all have much more fun punting a Lotus Elise down our favourite B road.
I hated it first time i saw it but somehow every time i look at it its getting better. Im sure it must be impressive irl
Been waiting for this!!!
Regarding the Finance side. The Docs will be E Sign rather than Wet sign and sent to the customer prior to handover so the customer can read them in their own time. The only time Wet sign would be an option would be if the E Docs didn't work and the customer would still have to sign them prior to handover day..
Best thing I've heard about the F80... it looks like the lego version 😂
34:20, agree with your comment Sam about the UK being anti-business/ profit however! There is a line and I think sometimes businesses cross and make too much money, that commission for car finance is directly passed onto the customer, if we’re talking thousands per car then I think people will get sick of it
I’d honestly rather have a F80 M3 🫣
It’s the principles Sam. The principles!
F80 looks awesome and should be celebrated.
The Daytona SP3 is more of a La Ferrari replacement than the F80
Not really, it certainly doesn't have the performance to eclipse that of LaFerrari.
I'm very happy to have found your channel. Your videos are always so high quality and interesting. Keep it up!🚙😝🎮
Ferrari needs to come out with a throwback V12 or V8 manual. Give the people what they want!
Who are all these people? Can they all buy a Ferrari?
They already do
@ Please enlighten me which new Ferrari offers a manual
Jep totally agree that the step in between te cars is to small for these cars to really impress. En dont forget they dont just have the sf90 below this.
They also made the icona series daytona SP3, I think of they had not done that and now came out with the sp3 people would have loved it
Same with the McLaren
I mean McLaren come out with another hypercar every month it feels like, Senna sabre, solus GT, speedtail
Now for Porsche the step is actually nice because they havent made a hypercar since the 918 spyder
Got me looking at Alpine A110's know!
The latest XX and the W1 look better every time I see the 12 cilindri and the F80.
It has definitely traded in the charisma and cohesiveness that the LaF had in exchange for raw performance and technological superiority. The V6 is beyond advanced in comparison to the V12s, but it does not yet have the cache that they do
I loved the design of f80
I like the Rari design but I hate the sound it makes. I Like the McLaren design and I love the theater it makes in movement.
I bet Laf prices are going to go even higher.
What are your thoughts about the new Corvette ZR1?
There’s very few used 5Ns on the second hand market. Outside delivery miles
Will you be maintaining your show in Valencia next week?
I have a ticket, but Valencia has had a tough few days.
The F80 is a dog. I've been a Ferrari enthusiast for over 40 years. This is a total failure. Even though they will profit from it, it's utter garbage.
I think Ferrari could have made a monumental/stupendous car, even with a V6. But they made poor choices this time.
The V6 could have been turbo, revving up to 9k. It could have been super lightweight. It could have had Pininfarina's hand in it, and it could have been made in very small numbers.
there was a study done a while back that had Ferrari made 75000 profit per car, hyper cars are probably a lot more.
Motormouth UA-cam channel in Canada reported on a very similar story to Tony's neighbour a few months back involving a hyundai.
I think it looks mega, almost a GroupC type design. Would be amazing to see it in person! As with the W1.
Some of these cars (think 720S) cannot be properly appreciated by photos.
Sam you cannot be serious. This is possibly the worst looking and sounding Ferrari ever.
40:18 I have seen one Hyundai Ionic 5N on the road. (Manila, Philippines)
There are a couple of Ioniq 5Ns round my town
"... I request you to be more eloquent in your statement..." lol
Guys I’m looking for Defender 20/21 reg. what’s the best engine to get - is the 250D ok?
They need to stop chasing numbers and chase emotion!!! If the F80 had a 11k RPM redline the best sounding six cylinder we would not hate as much or at all IMO!!
@@Gangreen167 9.2k rpm red line is close enough and for a v6 and road legal car, that's more than enough.
@@steven_taylor_ Enough? Have listen to the GMA T50? Then ask again 9k is enough!!!... We know is a v12
@@Gangreen167 Yes, ask yourself again and also ask are you really going to explore 11k rpm all the time or most of the time you drive on public roads with a speed limit?
@@steven_taylor_ I glad you said it, Ferrari instead of chasing number that almost no one is going reach they should of gone for the emotion every car guy loves THE SOUND of a high revving engine!! Perfect example Porsche GT3!!!
@@Gangreen167 Wdym? Just look at the W1, same formula as a decade old car. And the F80's v6 has a higher red line than that of the GT3 and Porsche also chased numbers with the GT3.
I dont understand why these hypercars have to adhere to the strict emissions laws as the number of them being produced is so low it doesn't make one iota to climate change, if thats a thing 😊
As the F80 is more track focus, maybe it opens a gap for a more pretty luxury Halo (Bugatti rival/new Sp3) to sit alongside the F80?
The amount of money to have a tail light that conforms to every law in the world is INSANE. Its INSANE.
F80 is probably the last new ferrari I would buy
I feel like the F80 looks like a car from GTA or a meccano car honestly
The Laferrari market just sky rocketed even more 😅
Yeah, that's the problem. You can have as much power as you want from a turbo V6/V8. But you need a V12 for passion and emotion. Revuelto has the drive train that the F80 should have had.
That wasn't the point behind the F80. Just see the revuelto's performance, it will get demolished by the W1.
It’s just ugly and not pretty enough. The halo cars don’t need to be the best track weapons, they need to be the best looking and best sounding. Pretty over function imo
To tired to argue, Tony triggered you after 18 minutes. Had to laugh 😃
Ferrari charge as much for the F80 as they can. Customers for Ferrari halo cars will pay whatever they need to to get it and have extremely deep pockets to do so.
I suspect they are making a staggering profit on the F80 compared to say an SF90 or even a Laferrari.
I appreciate development cost etc are spread over a smaller number of units than the standard cars. But there is no way the cost of developing the F80 was double the price a Laferrari cost a customer to buy (and if it did it wasn’t worth it).
I think Ferrari are just gouging more of the day 1 profit folks who bought these cars used to get. After all why give this bonus to customers when you can take it for yourself.
I get what Sam is saying on the manufacturing point of view, I think what Tony is trying to get across is that Ferrari already have the RD so shouldn't cost as much to make. Also, the customer is not going to give 2 sh*** about RD, explain RD to the average Joe who will be doing no more than the legal speed limit. Both V6 hybrid £200k price tag looks better than £3.2m on paper.
This morning or yesterday I saw a headline pass by about Porsche saying that Porsche is thinking about putting ICEs in their EV models.
Don't ask me who claimed that, I only read the headline as I was scrolling.
Nowdays f80 looks ugly for most people, but the f80 will age better than anything else
Drive the new Lexus LC500, similar to the 5N everyone loves them and seems like your type of car.
I feel like this is in a somewhat similar vain to the Senna being based on performance before looks. Ferrari as a brand has not really stepped into this realm often. The XX cars has the more extreme look but the regular cars of the big 5 are all still beautiful.
I just dont see, why the F80 is 3 million more than the SF90. Both boxy design, both 4 digit horsepower, both all wheel drive, both twinturbo, both hybrid but the SF90 has two more cylinders.
4+ millions you meant I guess. And the fact that it can go up to 6.3 millions is just...
Look at the technical specs if the suspension.. electric turbos etc
@@technom3598 Definetly not a technical thing that should make cost 10 times more😂😂😂 The new carreras also have e turbos
@@technom3598 There are cars for under 100K with electric turbos... The SF90 is just to competent for Ferraris own sake, no idea why they thought they needed that in their lineup
@@FastTeam11these aren't just electric turbos
F80 = Hybrid V6 🥱
I think the F80 design is friggin awsome. A bit bummed about the engine choice but im not a customer anyway so whatever, atleast a v6 fits the 80:s retro look.
The problem is also that the F80 looks like a 90s supercar that has been restomodded with modern headlights etc. It looks like its from the 90s to me.
I hate the blocky styiling of the F80. Laferrari and even the SP3 were both curvy and voluptuous but the F80 is just an awkward slab. And that black bar thing from the dodici cilindri looks stupid. I like the dodici cilindri but the only thing I really wanted carried over from that is the V12.
You were right to say that these sorts of cars can't be so groundbreaking anymore because "regular" supercars are so fast now, so what they should do is make their halo cars exciting. Give us a V12 and a manual... Give us another F50 is what I'm basically saying. We've only got a few years of petrol cars left, we may as well make them as special as possible, and then focus on speed once everything goes electric.
The F80 looks like a Ferrari version of McLaren Senna
Sam it's the Kiss of death saying you've been lucky with the little un sleeping through..😂😂
Tony is completely right on the who much they spent on already existing R&D vs for how much they sell the F80. McLaren W1 is in the same boat also. I fell this will be the last Holy Trinity of "conventional" supercar brands.
24:25 muted SP3 with a N/A V12 still sounds better then a TT V6. Add Novitec exhaust on any 2022+ Ferrari OPF and it will sound glorious. We all heard how 499P sounds ("same" engine as F80). It's nothing special in sound department. On idle it sounds like wet fart
A lot of EV producing European car manufacturers doubling down on EVs. What a shocker
Should've had a twin turbo v12
51:46 value of property wouldn’t make any difference, cost of repair would make the difference. Also central London has lots of high value cars you could hit (Ferrari, rolls Royce, Bentley all on one street).
F80 is a proper wallposter of a sports car! Looks great and if EU wasn't so shit it would sound greater and have a V10 or V12
GMA T.50 & T.33 has entered that chat at 24:38 Also Porsche just released their N/A 2025 GT3's that will still make noise...no?
What part of a V6 is exotic...take Godzilla/Nissan GTR for example, it was destroying exotic cars punching up...but no one would dare call it exotic for fear Ferrari fan boys would attack them in the comments and a sub Reddit...no? Do I need to mention Jaguar XJ220 too?
Porsche 918 came out with some of the same hate too....until it started breaking records and embarrassing the La Ferrari and the P1?
Hands down this is one of the most disappointing things Ferrari has ever done with the V6 F80 IMO.
Watched the F80 flyby on Shmee. Sounded like a very small mouse farting!!
Euro sound regulations
FORZA Charlie