My very first thought when I was thinking of "what makes an economical ship" was the power source, and sure enough, easily a third of this presentation is about making clear the critical role the engine and boiler systems played in making the class the brilliant success they were. I love it when that happens. That said, I find it very ironic Flower Class Corvettes don't survive in any great numbers despite their extremely low cost and high durability. Seems a classic example of the catch-22 that is an economical ship: being cheap to run and maintain also means it is tempting to expend them in ways one wouldn't do so much with more expensive ships. Seems most everyone with Flowers were happy to just use them up and scrap them after many years of hard service.
As Sir Atkinson said: the Flowers and the Rivers were the Backbone in the Atlantic. They had the ability to serve in any war theatre they were thrown in and did a yeoman job, find another class which achieved that goal. They had the immunity of the Cork forever bobbing on the surface, No matter, what the nature threw on them. Mr. Reed did a marvellous Job, five day duration! AND they are extremly interesting for modelers because of the variety of fittings!
I've always loved the Flower class. It's probably their fishing-vessel roots, but there's just something about their designs, their lines, their superstructure that just screams "north atlantic" to me. They're the sort of vessel that just seems most at home anchored in the small port towns and cities of eastern Canada, Ireland, Scotland, Scandinavia, Greenland, and Iceland. There's a certain... ambience... about them.
The people who complain about the Flowers not being good enough show a lack of understanding of the basic math of the convoy war, every submarine that's kept down and can't charge it's batteries and thus loses contact with a convoy, every time a uboat is forced to take a marginal shot or better yet not take a shot at all because there's a Flower class there being awkward is a win. That flower class can be there because it's not the best, it's the minimal viable product which allows it to be ubiquitous and thus foil more attacks than a "better" ship with a higher probability of kill that cannot possibly match the production or reliability/in service rate of the Flowers. Because of the "rules of the game" and what actually constitutes a win, the Flowers are the perfect solution precisely because they're just good enough.
@DrAlexClarke thank you for the deep dive into this ship class that I love. It has to be my absolute favourite class of any ship i have read about. Since meeting you and Drachinifel in Halifax, I have patiently waited for this. I kind of wish you would have told the story about the ferry and the pompom lol. Thank you for this episode.
That was some excellent footage you got with your trip. I like how you had the drone and AA mount interaction. This is the first time I've seen that kind of thing.
“The Cruel Sea” both the book and movie depict the Flower and River class during the Battle of the Atlantic. Always interesting to learn more about these ships.
I decided to re-watch this video, I had first see it as soon as it had come out, I see that your previous visiting of the HMCS Hiada inspired you to emulate her train busting credits while visiting on the HMCS Sackville. Thank you or the video, I think you did the class proud as well as the Sackville itself. Showing the context of her development and place in the British, as well as the many others that used this class of vessels, navy is important. I agree that the class was in very much of a sweet spot of enough to do the many things asked of them and yet cheap enough to allow a great may to be built and manned,
The flower class corvettes are one of my favourites ever. However, I’d still rather are you a Atlantic Crossing in a larger ship turn off an hour. I’ve heard they can be quite interesting a ride😀😀
Scotch boiler is very similar to most locomotive boilers, so as you said Alex many places that could make and repair Loco boilers could make/repair one of the Boilers for these great ships
Agreed, and why I'm so thankful for the preservation of HMCS Sackville... I will also add, Halifax was a lovely place to visit - but probably a little far for a weekend city break and it's honestly not that big, but the forts, Sackville and the Museums would definitely provide enough to keep even the most actively inclined interested.
The Coasties manned Alacrity, Action, Brisk, Haste, Intensity, Might, Hurt, and Prudent. (Scheina - US Coast Guard Cutters and Craft of World War II. Naval Institute Press)
They were also on a bunch of other ships that ostensibly belonged to the Navy. I never quite understood how that worked. I've heard it said that the absolute first Allied ship into Tokyo Bay had a Coast Guard crew, getting there before the minesweepers. The Coasties were there to do surveying. But I've been unable to verify that.
@@PaulfromChicago If you mean the ships the US Navy operated from early 1942 to the war's end, it seems very simple. US Navy had a shortage of ASW vessels in early 1942, with most all the ships ordered by the US Navy before the attack on Pearl Harbor not yet ready for service, so the British sent some of their own completed Flowers over to the US Navy to keep the US sailors working while the US ships were completed. Britain always had a shortage of sailors of all skill levels throughout the war, while the US Navy had a relatively large pool of new sailors with basic skills, skilled enough to manage a simple ship like a Flower, so it was a great way to make use of the American manpower at a critical time.
1:13:31 - what's that illustration on the side of the gun housing? Pirate with a tricorne hat, a sword and pistol? He seems to be riding a shark which has a funnel with smoke coming out of it. And what is the thing with legs at the bottom left?
Were the Flower Class of WWII descendants of the flower class sloops in World War I, or the trawlers that were developed by Admiralty? I've thought the World War I Flower class more closely resembled later minesweepers and what ended up being true sloops. Basically someone took the trawlers from World War I and upsized them to the needs of World War II.
hopefully the whole thing explains, in conception, role & duty, they were descendents of the sloops... in industrial basis, them and the Trawlers the Royal Navy called up/built for WWII deffinitely followed the trawlers... but the Flower Class sloops were not exactly early in WWI and comprise nearly 120 vessels, so it does fit the pattern.
@@DrAlexClarke Not what you said at 1.06.5 -1.07.06 referring to the triple expansion engines. They are a very quiet propulsion system compaered to a diesel engine.
Sorry in the earlier response I thought you were talking about submarines - because that's where I discuss things in reference to diesel engines... I went to the point you gave me, and again I don't mention diesels there, I say a Triple Expansion engine was noisy, I make no reference to a diesel... or anything else... A triple expansion engine is not quiet(you can make the case in reference to something else, but that doesn't make it quiet, just less noisy than that other thing), and if you were in the engine room with that engine going there is no way you wouldn't know it was going. A good example of this is this ua-cam.com/video/x5cvRE4l0c0/v-deo.html which is a beautiful example of the noises those engines made - yes I'd agree it's not as loud as some of the diesels at the time, but it's not quiet. Thanks for the comment and hope I managed to answer your question.
@@DrAlexClarke The paddle ship Waverly was not especially noisy in the engine room compared to the paddles thrashing. The big pistons were very smooth and steady.
Adm. King launches into rant about water-based armour on RN capital ships. RN staff officer responds by presenting bill for unpaid royalties on depth charges…
Well done! Nice to see attention paid to the Flower Class . Not glamorous but an extremely important group of ships.
My very first thought when I was thinking of "what makes an economical ship" was the power source, and sure enough, easily a third of this presentation is about making clear the critical role the engine and boiler systems played in making the class the brilliant success they were. I love it when that happens.
That said, I find it very ironic Flower Class Corvettes don't survive in any great numbers despite their extremely low cost and high durability. Seems a classic example of the catch-22 that is an economical ship: being cheap to run and maintain also means it is tempting to expend them in ways one wouldn't do so much with more expensive ships. Seems most everyone with Flowers were happy to just use them up and scrap them after many years of hard service.
As Sir Atkinson said: the Flowers and the Rivers were the Backbone in the Atlantic.
They had the ability to serve in any war theatre they were thrown in and did a yeoman job, find another class which achieved that goal.
They had the immunity of the Cork forever bobbing on the surface, No matter, what the nature threw on them.
Mr. Reed did a marvellous Job, five day duration!
AND they are extremly interesting for modelers because of the variety of fittings!
The Cruel Sea is a grim but excellent book, the film one of the better era war films..... I do like a Flower Class Corvette .
I found the canadian part to "the cruel sea" called "Lifeline to victory" with Sackville playing a key role
I've always loved the Flower class. It's probably their fishing-vessel roots, but there's just something about their designs, their lines, their superstructure that just screams "north atlantic" to me. They're the sort of vessel that just seems most at home anchored in the small port towns and cities of eastern Canada, Ireland, Scotland, Scandinavia, Greenland, and Iceland. There's a certain... ambience... about them.
The people who complain about the Flowers not being good enough show a lack of understanding of the basic math of the convoy war, every submarine that's kept down and can't charge it's batteries and thus loses contact with a convoy, every time a uboat is forced to take a marginal shot or better yet not take a shot at all because there's a Flower class there being awkward is a win. That flower class can be there because it's not the best, it's the minimal viable product which allows it to be ubiquitous and thus foil more attacks than a "better" ship with a higher probability of kill that cannot possibly match the production or reliability/in service rate of the Flowers. Because of the "rules of the game" and what actually constitutes a win, the Flowers are the perfect solution precisely because they're just good enough.
Great presentation. I definitely have become a fan of the Flower Class and great respect for the crews that served on them.
@DrAlexClarke thank you for the deep dive into this ship class that I love. It has to be my absolute favourite class of any ship i have read about.
Since meeting you and Drachinifel in Halifax, I have patiently waited for this.
I kind of wish you would have told the story about the ferry and the pompom lol.
Thank you for this episode.
Things that got cut to get it to two hrs... I'm glad you enjoyed it, and I'm fairly sure the ferry story will make an appearance at some point... 🙂
@@DrAlexClarke i surehope so. Because that story gives me a laugh everytime I think it.
You have done the ship well in this video. Thank you
That was some excellent footage you got with your trip. I like how you had the drone and AA mount interaction. This is the first time I've seen that kind of thing.
“The Cruel Sea” both the book and movie depict the Flower and River class during the Battle of the Atlantic. Always interesting to learn more about these ships.
One of my favorite war time movies is "The Cruel Sea" with Jack Hawkins.. The Story of a Corvette, The Compass Rose
I decided to re-watch this video, I had first see it as soon as it had come out,
I see that your previous visiting of the HMCS Hiada inspired you to emulate her train busting credits while visiting on the HMCS Sackville.
Thank you or the video, I think you did the class proud as well as the Sackville itself. Showing the context of her development and place in the British, as well as the many others that used this class of vessels, navy is important. I agree that the class was in very much of a sweet spot of enough to do the many things asked of them and yet cheap enough to allow a great may to be built and manned,
The flower class corvettes are one of my favourites ever. However, I’d still rather are you a Atlantic Crossing in a larger ship turn off an hour. I’ve heard they can be quite interesting a ride😀😀
Scotch boiler is very similar to most locomotive boilers, so as you said Alex many places that could make and repair Loco boilers could make/repair one of the Boilers for these great ships
definitely, but if I went into all of that I'd have got sidetracked and the video would have been 4hrs long... ;-) I know my weaknesses
@@DrAlexClarke only a 4hr video ;-)
@@steveclarke6257 Honestly, given the fact that Alex isn't making a 5 video 12 hour set on the Flower shows considerable self restraint.
In addition to all the hills built, I also think about the young men sailing on them.
Thank you.
On the Sackville the asdic compartment is actually up on the flying bridge level in closed -in spaces ahead of the compass platform .
There is a repeater up there, but having stood up there and in the wheelhouse below, the actual compartment exists at the back.
When you loaded them down with 200 dept charges you could keep the roll down .
It was the smallest ship that would not till so bad .
Loved it! Bravo 👏
I have always thought that the Flower Class did as much to save the UK as the Spitfire yet not one has been preserved in the UK.
Agreed, and why I'm so thankful for the preservation of HMCS Sackville... I will also add, Halifax was a lovely place to visit - but probably a little far for a weekend city break and it's honestly not that big, but the forts, Sackville and the Museums would definitely provide enough to keep even the most actively inclined interested.
Oh, a link to that triple expansion underway for a minute would have been cool.
I have a short video of the engine on the Sackville running if you want it . Not under steam though . I volunteer as a tour guide aboard her .
@@audiorepaudiorep Ah. thank you!
The Coasties manned Alacrity, Action, Brisk, Haste, Intensity, Might, Hurt, and Prudent. (Scheina - US Coast Guard Cutters and Craft of World War II. Naval Institute Press)
They were also on a bunch of other ships that ostensibly belonged to the Navy. I never quite understood how that worked.
I've heard it said that the absolute first Allied ship into Tokyo Bay had a Coast Guard crew, getting there before the minesweepers. The Coasties were there to do surveying. But I've been unable to verify that.
@@PaulfromChicago If you mean the ships the US Navy operated from early 1942 to the war's end, it seems very simple. US Navy had a shortage of ASW vessels in early 1942, with most all the ships ordered by the US Navy before the attack on Pearl Harbor not yet ready for service, so the British sent some of their own completed Flowers over to the US Navy to keep the US sailors working while the US ships were completed. Britain always had a shortage of sailors of all skill levels throughout the war, while the US Navy had a relatively large pool of new sailors with basic skills, skilled enough to manage a simple ship like a Flower, so it was a great way to make use of the American manpower at a critical time.
1:56:28 - Ah... Ventilation turbine. Was that original equipment or was it added later? Interesting that they were around in the 1940s...
Triple expansion engines are terrifyingly dangerous.
Thankfully there was no insulation in the engine room/ boiler or machinery space. Which there would have been when origialy built.
well, it would have certainly made it interesting had their been more... I'd probably have had to wear more protective gear though
1:13:31 - what's that illustration on the side of the gun housing? Pirate with a tricorne hat, a sword and pistol? He seems to be riding a shark which has a funnel with smoke coming out of it. And what is the thing with legs at the bottom left?
Yes & I think it's a chicken or road runner, I'm not a 100% sure from photos...
The sailor is going to jump on the Nazi fowl. Like boarding an enemy ship, and submarines are foul.
He was riding a hunter-killer of the seas.
Were the Flower Class of WWII descendants of the flower class sloops in World War I, or the trawlers that were developed by Admiralty? I've thought the World War I Flower class more closely resembled later minesweepers and what ended up being true sloops. Basically someone took the trawlers from World War I and upsized them to the needs of World War II.
hopefully the whole thing explains, in conception, role & duty, they were descendents of the sloops... in industrial basis, them and the Trawlers the Royal Navy called up/built for WWII deffinitely followed the trawlers... but the Flower Class sloops were not exactly early in WWI and comprise nearly 120 vessels, so it does fit the pattern.
No, it is not noisy compared to a diesel. The FD fan is likely is likely to be the most noise being generated.
as (hopefully I said) on batteries, they were annoyingly quiet if they weren't moving that much...
@@DrAlexClarke Not what you said at 1.06.5 -1.07.06 referring to the triple expansion engines. They are a very quiet propulsion system compaered to a diesel engine.
Sorry in the earlier response I thought you were talking about submarines - because that's where I discuss things in reference to diesel engines...
I went to the point you gave me, and again I don't mention diesels there, I say a Triple Expansion engine was noisy, I make no reference to a diesel... or anything else... A triple expansion engine is not quiet(you can make the case in reference to something else, but that doesn't make it quiet, just less noisy than that other thing), and if you were in the engine room with that engine going there is no way you wouldn't know it was going. A good example of this is this ua-cam.com/video/x5cvRE4l0c0/v-deo.html which is a beautiful example of the noises those engines made - yes I'd agree it's not as loud as some of the diesels at the time, but it's not quiet.
Thanks for the comment and hope I managed to answer your question.
@@DrAlexClarke The paddle ship Waverly was not especially noisy in the engine room compared to the paddles thrashing.
The big pistons were very smooth and steady.
Was the Flower class 4 inch gun dual purpose?
not really, it doesn't have the range of movement to engage aircraft
@@DrAlexClarke thanks :) Can you make a video about the WW1 Flower class as well? There is almost no information about them on the Internet.
ua-cam.com/video/wtiQLBSPaaQ/v-deo.html may be of interest
Adm. King launches into rant about water-based armour on RN capital ships. RN staff officer responds by presenting bill for unpaid royalties on depth charges…