Full cycle and 'trickle' test for 12V AGM battery
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- Опубліковано 26 тра 2021
- As requested by Alison, we're doing a full cycle test on this 12V 9Ah AGM battery. The charge and discharge curve look so different to our LFP cells we have tested before. We have to be careful, not to discharge the battery too much. Even it says Deep-Cycle Battery, you should not deep-cycle it. I explain why this battery chemistry is outdated today and only finds usage in power backups (UPS) and special niche applications.
It is very interesting to work with these batteries and test them.
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What are these "AGM" batteries you speak of hehehe
7.6/9 is actually pretty good. I could never pull the full capacity from any of the banks I used to build. So many losses. And requires such a precise multistage charging algorithm. Great video as always
Damn your everywhere, go a lot of respect for you!
Thank you, Will! Your feedback is much appreciated!
I now did some more cycles with the same settings and can now get 8.5Ah out of it. Seems like they need some cycles to get to full life. Like in the good old days with Ni-Cd cells 😜
Morning Will, I have not seen any more about the solar you setup in the car park mate.
That’s cool your watching the frogger! I’ve referred some of your forum info to him. Maybe he won’t have to learn it all the hard way. You two could have some fun conversations :)
@@chuckziska988 if you replying to me I want Andy to succeed! I am learning alot from him. I also follow Will P. I learned alot from him. I also learned alot from the solar cabin channel Larmar Alexander and Professor hobo and many many others. Each of these guys have something to contribute to my education. I look at it this way, these folk are the pioneers, it wise to listen to what they have to say. If I see something I can help with, I am in.
I like to see all points of view.
Civilization is based on helping, not tearing down.
The 6 videos on my channel was to help Andy solve his solar panel missing power issue. The thought process started from Wills comparison of different charge controllers, he kept saying getting 70 watts out of a 100 watt panel was normal. Then I bought a 100 watt panel and damn I only got 65 watts (feb east coast). The hunt was on, where was the missing power? I needed a simple circuit and an understanding of what the back label really indicate and how to estimate the solar irradiation.
It helps that photo diodes was part of my eduction and work history.
If you are not talking to me, sorry. Night
Thank you for all your Vlogs, you do some great testing, I have learnt a lot from you and Will Power on youTube, I know you give up your own time to do all this so thank you very much
You're awesome, Andy! I love your "Dexter's" garaje. Respect to AGM batteries, it's a lottery. I've use this for many years and the "real" SOC is too far from the specified by the manufacturer. Normally this batteries has about 85% of the capacity displayed in the sticker. I mean the 7Ah, 9Ah, 11Ah and similars. Your tests are correct!, don't dissapoint you! Even in home solar systems, the discharge rate NEVER is continuous, it's depends of the loads you'r running in each time. As I wrote upper, I love your channel and your sense of humor. Cheers for that can of beer!! Hughs from Argentina!
I started solar with an agm batt.for learning experience.i still use the setup,(lights for two sheds and and water filtration.ive graduated to lifepo4 learning more everyday
5:14 C20 is 0.05C
Edit: I see the test was done at 0.05C but maybe termination is a bit early at 0.1A should be at 0.05A at least as this is a small battery and I think there is quite some extra energy that can be pushed based on how the current graph looks like. In any case it is as good as you can expect from a Lead Acid battery.
I have no experience with Lead Acid of any type so the above is just a guess.
Well Andy, your AGM test has confirmed what I suspected. This particular seller used to have quite good batteries but more recent experience has shown me they no longer meet the specifications on the label. I'm not the only person that has experienced this either :(
Well what can I say thanks for doing my test
It shows me why I don't get full ah% out of my
24v 132ah batterys at 11.8v cut off each 12v battery at discharge I was expecting lot more current percentage wise as you say leadacid is a poor womens choice but doing
My bit to use solar to run things in my house
When sun shines it automatic switch on at fully charged then back to grid power at 11.7 on a 12v battery 23.5 across 24v on minor lights and TV and basement workshop lights etc utility lights to do my ironing and workshop
Thanks lot Alison (uk not as sunny)
Thanks, it was very useful.
Nice would to see the same 12V batteries connected into 24V system and do the similar test again with check voltages on every battery.
Great Video as always.
You float charged it to 100mA charge current and then had it stop charging. This would have not been fully charged, and it should be almost 0.0A when fully charged (at float charge voltage). It can be charged / maintained at 13.2 - 13.8V for ever. these batteries can take 24+ hrs to fully charge at the float voltage.
great content sir
Morning Andy, doing old school batteries brilliant. Pickup about 4 or 5kW or solar, but what a nightmare trip back to Central Victoria. Stop will the cold mate, I miss North Queensland.
@Off-Grid Garage I think that the point of the test she wanted is to do a "Standard" charge then discharge and see the results, then do a "trickle or float" charge and compare the results of the two Discharge cycles...And with 2 batteries you could alternately test both of them! ie: Batt. A Test 1, Batt. B Test 2, Batt. A Test 2, Batt. B Test 1.
I have had a small solar system essentially just for lights in our remote cabin. We are on our second set of Trojan AGM batteries. When we replaced the first set we had a discussion on Lithium Iron Phosphate but at the time there was no BMS that had low temp cutoff. Our cabin is in northern climate and half the year it goes below freezing almost daily.
As the one who designed and set up the system 7 years ago, I am "over" AGM chemistry and ready to move on to Lithium.
Here are my hurdles: 1) cabin is sporadically used so the batteries set without cycling sometimes for months 2) many of those months it gets below freezing 3) we have members of my cabin that do not understand the present system let alone a system powered by Lithium Iron Phosphate.
So, the freezing temperature issue appears to be solved with a quality BMS with low temp cutoff. Having the batteries not cycled for weeks even months at a time is still something I am wrestling with. What effect will this have on the longevity of the batteries? It appears Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries can be stored if they are stored at around 50% DOD. How accurate is this information? I don't know and the financial investment is substantial to "experiment" on this issue.
If I were the only one going to the cabin I think I could manage this situation but we have several other members as mentioned that will not do any monitoring or battery "maintenance". So what is a guy to do?? I guess what I am saying is that I need to setup a system that is essentially idiot proof if there is such a thing. Any suggestions?
Thanks Andy
Lanplus is pretty good! I'm using the Lifepo4 version of those things, the ones that I got (from their eBay store) are in the 7Ah case and are rated for 8Ah. The new version is only rated for 7Ah, they have built in BMS which also has short circuit protection (don't ask me how I know LoL)..
But they are really good! I bet that the Lifepo4 version would outperform the AGM version!
Oh and I didn't mention the weight! They weigh 950g! I kid you not! When I first got them, I thought that they were empty inside LoL...
I'm using 4 in series for 48V but I'm charging all 4 of them independently at 13.8v each which they have their own MPPT charge controller and 36V panel!
No balancing circuit needed!
So basically there are 4 Batteries, 4 charge controllers and 4 panels!
It only sounds complicated but it's not!
I'm currently working on trying the same thing with the 3.2v cells, the only issue that I'm having is that a ready made circuit that can charge 3.2v Lifepo4 Batteries with an isolated output doesn't exist! Which means that I have to design one! Power systems are not my forte and I have a lot to learn in the shortest possible time! I know that it can be done but no one has done it yet!
Anyway! Another great video Andy!
I think "trickle charge" might be the under-1-amp charge some of the wallwarts provide for items with AGM batteries in them. Then you have the "fire hose" chargers in some UPS units which push the limits of the battery's capacity and charge it to death on a couple of years.
Standard practice discharge of AGM batteries for long term use is 50% DOD (with a few exceptions). I ran my previous set of AGMs to the standard end-of-life value of less than 80% capacity just before they turned 9 years old (batteries with a manufacturer specified 5-7 year life). As with other technologies (even lithium) there's a "sweet spot" in AGM battery use - charge to 13.8 volts, float at 13.6 volts, occasionally do a short equalize (1-3 hours) at 14.2-14.4 volts. If the batteries do not see regular use, do a 10% discharge once a month to keep the electrolyte "stirred", preferable with a high charge rate (whatever is recommended) for the recharge to also "stir" the electrolyte. My batteries are in what amounts to UPS service - if the grid is down long enough (usually 30 minutes) I power the 2000 watt pure sine wave inverter from the 420AH battery bank and use the transfer switch to power the fridge, some LED lighting and the central heat, if needed. Better to have 12 hours of easy backup than to be out in a thunderstorm or shoveling 7" (18cm) of snow at 30F (-1C) to get a generator out of a shed out back.
Lithium batteries have a "sweet spot" of charge to 75%, discharge to 25% for maximum number of charge/discharge cycles (the US military uses 80% and 20%). If you keep the batteries cool and stay within the recommended charge/discharge current ratings you can double, triple or possibly quadruple the manufacturer's number of charge/discharge cycles - check out the notes on lithium battery life on batteryuniversity.com
The "20" has nothing to do with charging. It refers to the AH rating for a 20 hour discharge of the battery (the AH rating standard for most batteries). The "9 amp hour" rating of the battery says it will supply 9 / 20 = 0.45 amp for 20 hours to 1.75 volts (as specified on the label) - that's NOT a recommendation, it's a maximum limit. The 100AH and 110AH batteries I use for my older solar backup system can each deliver about 5 amps for 20 hours. Knowing which things are essential, the average hourly load on my 420AH battery bank is 13.6 amps in winter and 10.8 amps in other seasons (no air conditioning when on the backup system) but we manage the usually short (less than 12 hours) outages. Longer outages or more need for heating or cooling would have me using the inverter generator - and charging the batteries whenever the gen is running. If we needed long term solar power, I'd have to take down some trees to have a full day's view of the sun for active solar power.
New lead-acid batteries may increase in capacity by some amount over the first XX charge/discharge cycles. Try a fresh battery and charge it to 13.8 volts and only discharge it 4.5AH (10 hours at 0.45 amp). Then charge to 13.8 volts and do it several more times - just program this in and check a week later ;-)
There's a paper from a battery company which states that sealed lead-acid (AGM, gel) batteries should be recharged with 107% to 115% of the amount discharged. I have an up/down AH meter on the battery bank to verify that at least 110% of the used power is restored - I can do the 10% math in my head ;-)
www.cdtechno.com/pdf/ref/41_2128_0212.pdf
Page 3, "Overcharging"
Page 6, "Lead Acid Batteries and Undercharging"
You can only compare charge/discharge capacity if you do multiple tests on the same battery using identical parameters. There WILL be some differences when the maximum charge voltages differ by almost one volt. Try another battery and charge it to 13.8 volts and only discharge it 4.5AH (10 hours at 0.45 amp). Then charge to 13.8 volts and do it several more times - just program this in and check a week later (I think I just said this ;-) You can try all the other batteries you bought and come up with an average for that lot of batteries - the batteries from the next day of production might be slightly different ;-)
I'll be using AGM batteries until the local supply of lightly used batteries dries up. The 420AH of 15 month old batteries I purchased a little over a year ago cost me $305 (USD) and I expect 6 or so years of service from them. I can't (yet) buy 420AH of long term usable lithium battery power for that. The 75% to 25% range is 50% of rated AH capacity so I would still need 420AH of battery capacity to get 210AH of reliable, long term usable, power. With the 75% to 25% range giving perhaps 5000 cycles, my occasional use would have battery life into the next century ;-) If solar power became our primary power, 5000 cycles is over 13 years of daily charge/discharge. Lithium batteries as replacements for the current battery bank are probably in my future.
Awesome math 👍 just bought 98AH AGM now and testing it with 2.7A 12v fridge running constantly in eco mode and set to -20C to see how much capacity from battery will drain after about running 5hrs non stop and then I'll know whether the numbers will match the 98AH advertised capacity or not 🤗 as usually so far every normal lead acid battery that I bought had about 1/2 capacity of what was advertised. Was always buying 55AH batteries and they could only provide 3A continuous draw for 3hrs before hitting 12V or 50% SOC 😌
It would be interesting to see the default sla/agm options on the renorgy scc on the tester to see the pattern
I'd like to see a follow-up video on your battery storage black box as you've made a few changes over time. Perhaps with a schematic to go with it. What worked well, what would you do differently?
now would be a good time to do the test with a fla batt ( car/ lawnmower/ golf cart ) just what you have to answer the question that fla only has 50% usable cap. at different loads to see the cap falloff is as to load. good vid as usual. thanks
Greetings from Germany!
Voltage drops under load (much more than lithium cells). So if you discharge at C/20 down to 10.5 V an let the battery rest a while, voltage will rise to around 11.8 V (depends on chemistry and/or health status), which shows that the battery is really empty
So you think it does not hurt the battery discharging to 10.5V as per the specs? I know Voc will go up after removing the load but it takes a while, so we're still having the battery in a very low voltage window for that time.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Discharging at 0.05C? 10.5V is lower limit I'd have thought. Not great for longevity.
Seeing a lower voltage *while under load* is OK if the discharge rate is high, e.g. in some cases even as low as 1.4V/cell (8.4V) if loads are heavy (>>0.2C) and/or temps are cold. Each battery manufacturer should have a spec sheet on minimum voltage under load for various loads and test conditions.
But totally agree it's not recommended to discharge that low for maintaining battery longevity.
The specifications of SLA batteries I have suggest lower discharge voltage limits *while under load* are:
1.80Vpc @ 10 hr rate
1.75Vpc @ 8 hr rate
1.75Vpc @ 5 hr rate
1.70Vpc @ 3 hr rate
1.60Vpc @ 1 hr rate
1.60Vpc @ 15 min rate
Else bad things happen.
In early load testing while discharging at ~0.25C I took them down to 1.76V/cell (10.55V) and after only a few minutes rest they recovered to 1.98V/cell (11.9V) and indicative of ~70% DOD.
That was just for testing and it told me I had good batteries. I won't take mine that far in actual use unless I really really have to. I won't as I also have a backup generator if needed.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia You have made a complete cycle. I wouldn't say it "hurts" the battery if you do it once.
But at least lifetime decreases if to you full cycles too often.
Wish I had that tester when I did tank banks. Long tests.
I think the 10.5v on the battery was just telling you the voltage it was discharged to at C20 to get 9Ah. It wasn’t a recommendation of the minimum voltage. That size battery is usually quoted at 7Ah when used as alarm batteries however I’m sure that can be increased. Lead acid batteries are a bit odd from new in that the first few charges actually increase the battery capacity upto its maximum. This is especially the case if a battery has a slightly low state of charge when you get it as one of yours did. The float charging can actually be a part of the charge cycle and, with such a small battery, a charge of 0.1A could still be actually charging the battery, especially if a bit sulphated from storage. I think to get a true capacity it needs a bit of exercise but also needs a long time on float charge to help attain full capacity. As it is a float charge it won’t do any harm to leave it on that continuously which is what alarm systems do. We used to float and charge them at 13.7v. Any more than that used to shorten their life. At 13.7v 4 to 5 years standby was ok, at 13.8v they might struggle after a year or two. We were using gel rather than AGM but their charging specs were the same.
Very interesting, I like this test Agms have a lower Intial cost, lithium has broken the lifecycle cost and performance of AGMs.
I personally am debating between the 2 technologies.
Thanks for the info, good job!
Rules of thumb I have collected for lead acid batteries whether agm, gel or flooded cells.
1. The 20 hr discharge spec is just a way to compare different manufactures batteries.
2. Some batteries have a 1 and 10 hr spec.
2.5 Theoretically a 10 amp hour battery can be discharged with 10 amps for 1 hour. Or 1 amp for 10 hours. As long as the max rate is not exceeded.
3. If a battery is rated @ 100 Amp hr you should only use 50 Amp hr. (50%)
4. Batteries have a max charge and discharge rate of x C_rate per cell.
5. There is some chemistry delay called a Fulcart (sp?) effect. Which causes voltage dips when large loads are applied.
6. Somewhere between 12 and 12.2 open circuit voltage is the 50% capacity of the battery.
7. Until recently the price of lithium batteries was beyond most people's pocketbooks. AGM was the best tech. Before that flooded golf cart batteries was the best tech.
8. A single discharge to 10.5 volts can do damage to the batteries.
9. Lead acid batteries must be recharged to full after any discharge.
10. Starter batteries have unacceptable performance in solar storage.
11. Temperature compensation using a sensor on the battery, is highly recommended during charging.
12. Over charge voltages can cause the acid to boil. Very dangerous. You can hear it.
This list is things I collected from other DIY solar youtubers. No guarantee of accuracy.
The best lead acid data sheets I found at mighty max batteries. They make all sorts of batteries for mobile applications. Not an endorsement, not a knock of their brand. Specifications can be inferred by similarity to other brands of batteries by equivalent size and amp hr rating.
Without a BMS lithium batteries would be very difficult to use.
AGM batteries belong in a car and nowhere else.
You could use AGM batteries for jobs like lights and as he mentioned in the Video Gates. You can have two systems running or more. I would run TV's Refrigerator, computers and Cars off Lithium cells. Then run things that don't use large amounts of Watts for AGM.
@@davidkettell6236 not sure about that. I have seen one guy get 8 years use out of them. AGMs are a well understood technology.
I have 3 difficult points with lithium to understand before I am fully behind lithium.
1. Lithium can't be charged below ~ 0 deg C without damaging the battery. AGMs can be charged at a colder temperature than lithium.
2. I don't see a consensus of the usable depth of discharge. The number seems to be about 70% discharge. I have seen some systems reserve 10% charge.
3. The BMS is able to disconnect itself from the charge controller. Talk about a sneak circuit failure mode. Every DYIer says the charge controller must be connected first before the panels are connected or the charge controller will be damaged.
I really like lithium, not sure the other components of a solar system are ready for it.
The AGMs have internal charge loss during discharge. The ratio of "internal current":"external current" increases with increasing discharge rate. The "9 AH" is perhaps only seen at ~ 0.01 C discharge.
I use 12v 8ah agm battery's with a 20w panel a ledstrip and a darkness sensor for garden light.
Just thinking about some past information I was reading on the internet, some sites were suggesting testing the discharge at battery's temperature of 25 degree c (77F). Higher temps can result in slightly higher capacity delivered (4% max), while cold slows down reactions inside a battery causing slightly higher internal impedance and slightly reduced useable capacity.
Love the test - Andy you say Trigger charge but it’s likely Trickle charge (I think you know this from your post title - I’m sure you are aware but a trickle charge is simple a very small current charge vs a much larger fast charge. Marketing terms! One way to confirm a trickle charge would be to do a full charge with 0.2A max constant current. It would be the same as putting a very small portable solar panel straight on a battery. Also, can you repeat the same test but using the 50% AGM recommended spec? I’d love to know how many Ah you get from a real charging profile of float voltage down to 50% capacity. Probably no where near 4.5Ah
Perhaps a calendar calibrated in Light-Years would help to make precise measurements.
HelloAndy.
There are strong agm batteries, yellow top, blue top, red top, witch can cope with 100s of amps. Optima, car battery shaped.
Lead Acid, AGM, they’re all outdated with Lifepo4 now & other chemistries available. I saw a YT vid recently (forget who, sorry) that showed how all the batteries in USA did not meet the sellers advertised capacity’s at the given discharge rates and specs, I believe this test was done using a prominent Battery manufacturer;’s testing lab gear (Battle Born) by an outside UA-cam electrical engineer, it was an interesting test and results. LifePo4 is the go!
LiFePO4 is the best and safest battery we currently have. It's great!
What happened here last night.....Hmmmmmm.....NO MORE BEER FOR YOU😂🤣😄😊😳👍😁
I can't remember... 😂
Did you order the 9amp +/- 15% capacity version? LOL. Flooded lead acid batteries are still much less cost for solar when you look at just 3-5 years. And actually are a good starter system to make mistakes on before you upgrade to LFP, which is exactly what I did.
Hi all, I have been using a set of 800 amp hr AGM for the last 15 years, using a midnight solar charge controller with 3 kw of solar panels off grid mostly, got them from china they have performed as good as possible, no problems, they still work but are now in need of replacement as probably now only have about 60% of capacity, so i am reluctantly about to retire them,Lithium is so complicated by comparison, If i was younger I would by the AGMs again so easy to use, if i bought another set they would out last me(sobering thought), they have been the best quality product I have bought from china, most other stuff 15 years ago was very poor.
if you use them in parallel with lifepo4, they will act as a floor once the lifepo4 battery is down to its last ~15%, since they operate on a slightly lower voltage than lifepo4. (4S lifepo4 to 6S SLA).
Trickle charge would be more float ? I think the AGM are for older systems.
AGM are usually built with non-alloyed plates. They have pure lead plates with no internal grid support, relying on glass mat compression to hold their guts together. AGM's are sealed with minimal electrolyte volume soaked in the glass mat. Vunerable to overcharge. Moderate amount of hydrogen and oxygen gas generated during peak charge will internally recombine but if too much overcharging water fracturing builds up, the pressure relief valve will release excess gassing pressure to prevent fracturing case. Since this results in unrecoverable loss of water it needs to be avoided.
This gives AGM low internal series resistance and lower self discharge rate then normal lead acid design. Good for UPS and starting applications but not generally good for deep discharge solar application.
Flooded Calcium alloy support grid plates (auto & marine) have next lowest self discharge leakage rate.
Flooded Antimony alloy lead-acid bateries have toughest physical plates used for true deep discharge lead acid batteries but have highest self discharge leakage rate and consume water at highest rate during charging that requires constant replenishment. True deep discharge lead-acid batteries usually have thicker plates for longer service life for taking more abuse resulting in heavier batteries for their AH capacity. Fork lift lead-acid batteries are heavy beasts with plates thicker then quarter of inch each. This compares to auto lead-acid with plate thicknesses in order of 1/16th inch thick.
There is actually internal grid support but its very thin and also pure lead.
Trickle charge is the current required to keep a battery fully charged indefinitely. For me trickle charge is something you do once you have charged your battery with another algorithm, usually 0.1C.
What is your average battery temperature during the discharge test? At 10 deg C (for example), battery has only 90% of rated capacity for 0.05CA discharge.
I have a lead acid battery that is sitting on 10.5 v can i try to recover it ore am i better off trowing it out
Trickel means low ampage long charge
I think a lot of people already have significant investments in FLA and AGM battery banks and they do not want to just throw them out to start using LiFePO4 batteries. I think a great series of videos could be done to help such people start incorporating Lithium batteries into their system. Of course, combining on the DC would be nearly a nightmare - but combining FLA and LiFePO4 on the AC side wouldn;t be so difficult.
I ditched mine. Even they were old and knackered, at a fraction of their original Ah, they were still about 80% round trip efficiency. PylonTech's are about 93% efficient by my observations of data. I dont have to worry about partial charge screwing service life.
Using a 48v 200ah Powersafe battery for my home from 2013! On battery is printed recharge before 15. 05 .10, so probably have 12 years! 5kw Quattro Victron. Tristar MPPT 45 and 2kw solar. Never had a issue! Only when I forgot the watter running outside !(well pump on from 18:00 till the morning (1kwH). It was a bad raining morning!. Could you do a test with batteries in series! And do charge them in 8 hours and discharge with a c10 rate to 12.00. There is no sun for c20 charge!
I'd appreciate it if you would very awkwardly and creepily stare into the camera. :D
Great video as always! Thanks!
Is'nt it normal for lead batteries to need some cycles to get full capacity?
Hi Andy, as I mentioned to you in an earlier comment the sovereign risk of investing in electric vehicles and PHEVs has now been realised in Victoria. The legislation for an CPI indexed 2.5cents/km and 2.0cents /km EV/PHEV tax has passed both houses of the Victorian parliament! This new tax will be levied on EV/PHEV owners asap! With the surging mains electricity prices caused by the lack of spare baseload power, This makes the high upfront cost investing in EVs/PHEVs in Victoria marginal at best :( I am now virtually certain it will not be long before every state in Australia introduces a similar tax on EVs. As I also said before the way you are upgrading your garage solar capacity has now become the only sensible way to power an EV, PHEV! Everyone in your situation will be doing the same thing soon -well done Andy :)
wrong channel ;)
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Andy you missed my point it seems. This is the right channel but perhaps the wrong thread! My point is what you are doing with your "off grid garage" is particularly clever given the Sovereign risk with all things renewable energy! You will have so many low cost options that that whatever they do with Taxes and electricity prices you will be holding all the aces and miles ahead of those that must pay full prices for their energy:) Well done!
While there are no lithium batteries that, except possibly LiFeYPO4 that allegedly might, survive charging at freezing temperatures, these old and boring batteries are the only option. Actual winters with cold panels can produce lots of power for short periods when the sun starts coming out again. Heating the batteries is not always possible either...
Boring was a wrong choice of word there... Dull, yeah, dull is a better choice.
How much capacity we can take from a 12v12 ah lifepo4 battery ( bms overcharge cuttof 14.2 ; low voltage cutoff 11.5v )
Hello, i have a question. I dont understand why you say (i have heard and from other people as well) that in bulk charging we have a constant current and voltage. When using an mppt solar charger at absorption mode of course we have constant/stable voltage and a decreasing current because usually at that time the sun is already high enough. But the bulk stage starts with the first light of sun which means voltage and current are not anywhere near to constant/stable until it goes around 13:00 oclock. Same also happens with battery chargers too. I have 3-4 chargers including Victron and none of them starts charging immediately at 14.40 or 14.80. They all increasing gradually up. So what am i missing here? Thank you.
Not sure where you heard me saying that. Do you have a time in the video? Maybe it was in a different context.
But you're absolutely right, in Bulk we will charge as much as possible. Usually Voltage increase until we hit Absorption (CV) and current is whatever the MPPT can deliver. (well, this is not quite true for AGM or Lead Acid in general because they can not be charged at a fast rate like lithium can)
@@OffGridGarageAustralia 6:51.....a constant current charge at the begining to charge the bulk amount of energy....etc. There is also the posibility i didnt translate you correctly because English isnt my native language so it could be my bad english. Keep up the good work !
In a solar setup we are talking about 100Ah batteries. So take all your test numbers x10 to approach real world applications. Still not quite correct because 100 AH architecture is different than gel cell package.
It takes a few cycles for the battery to "form" ie get up to its rated capacity. There's 3 stages of a batteries life - wear in, peak and then decline towards end of life. I think that this test should have been carried out after the battery has been in normal use for a month at its peak rated capacity, you would probably get about 8.96 amp hours at 17°C
Thank you for the explanation. I'm not too familiar with this 'old' tech.
do lifepo4's play out this way too?
Just wanted to mention that the AGM batteries i use for my solar system , all the manufactures say that the readings in datasheets can be obtained only after at least three discharge and charge cycles to be as accurate as possible. Thats why you probably got only 7 Ah.
Trickle charge means simply low current
limited charging only, no float just let battery dissipate the energy as heat once full. I have been boo hooing pB batteries but someone pointed out a good application for them ...ups standby where they pretty much never get used. Lithium doesn't like to sit fully charged but Pb does.
I did still used small AGM paralel connected to my lithium battery just in case if lithium BMS fail or protect my SCC still save...
This is the problem with AGM batteries, its very easy to hurt the battery and you only find this out once time has passed. This means you may not even achieve the 400 cycles if DOD has been to low numbers. Before installing my Lithium solution I had a bank of ex telco AGM batteries 48 volt at 450 amp hours (21kwh capacity) I discharge them to 80% over night and this battery solution lasted only 12 months. In my view AGM is the wrong battery solution for solar.
For Longlivity, lead-Acid batteries are not to be discharged Below 50% i.e. when they reach 2V Per cell, you stop! For that reason, size your system to double capacity of what you need in Ah. This is Common knowledge with lead-acid batteries. Also when they are new, IT takes 5 to 8 cycles to condition the plates before They reach their capacity.
@@Tore_Lund Precisely why nobody likes lead acid.
Oh oh ! Do the dbcam! Substitute d for s ;)
Have big leadacid bank solar system , Works fine Andreas , No Bms ,. Thanks
My leadacid 48v backup system turned 11 years old. The voltage drop was so fast, I modernized with abt 120ah from bigbattery. No more maintenance.
lead acid is fine for one purpose, backup power in a UPS in case grid power gets interrupted for short periods of time.
After learning the chemistry behind lead batteries you are absolutely correct. Any the other use is abuse.
I'd still rather put LiFePO4 in a UPS.
IMO lead acid is only good for a starting battery.
At 3:15 your referring to a surface charge to dissipate
This is a great introduction for AGM. How does the cost of usable kWh over its life compare to Lfpo?
I was given 4 PowerSafe 190f batteries(low cycle life, long shelf life UPS) by another farmer that got them when a mobile tower on his farm had the UPS replaced. One of them is slightly pregnant and needs to be replaced. The local scrap yard have them for $100 with a months warranty. It's a cheap way to experiment and learn about my charger and inverter. Next step will be building my first 48v bank of Nissan Leaf cells when I decide on a Victron compatible BMS, maybe Batrium.
I have 3 of 19 330W panels that cost $18 each up on tilt frames so far. If only I could match Andy's panel gymnastics!
10.5 wow, call the manufacturer and ask what the warranty is on the batteries and also cycle life
I think trickle charge means where the 13.7 v standby charge is always applied no cut off
Yeah, That was the second test then anyway. Not much difference to the first one, it just takes longer to charge.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia yeah the stand by is just ment for emergency lightning ups and things I think with solar the higher voltage charge and spec would be used why one would use batterysvso small I have no idea other then lighting now I can understand the telecom batterys as they alot laeger
yep, trickle does mean float. and here is my theory. they say 10.5V for maximum capacity, because if you would have done the discharge test to the 11.65V as recommended, can you imagine how bad that would look on there spec sheet?? do a discharge test to the rated 11.65V and see? thanks for all you patience.
C20 is actually 1C/20 or 0.05C.
my AGM charger goes to 15.2 volts when charging, could explain your shortage on AH
That should not make a big difference, I would assume. It depends on the AGM batteries and how high they can go...
You do not understand what those batteries are built for. The primary use is alarm system backup power and emergency exit lighting and computer UPSes. This is a disposable use, if you need the full emergency power, you use it all and replace the battery after a small number of uses. They typically charge at 1/10th C, bulk, float, and absorption, no change. For cheap construction.
Additionally, in this type of use they degrade 25% per year, to be replaced every two years when they are half degraded. And they loose some 25% power for every 10C over the nominal 20C room temperature.
Yes, there are much better usage situations, but that is how these small AGM's have always been intended for use. They were a major improvement over what they replaced. And quality control? All over the place, by maker.
In addition, these systems
Hi. I had in my RV, AGM batterys. But, they were too heavy. I changed for lithium batterys. The only problem is, they can not be charge with alternator. So, I put a 2000W inverter from the alternator and I can charge them at 220v. So, and please, do you know if I put a mppt Regulator between the alternator and the lithium batterys, does it work? Because, I know there's something ac/dc, but it is very expensive. What do you think about my idea? Thank you. Cheers.
Victron has the Orion DC-DC converters. Basically while driving you charge the starter battery as normal. When it's full (and still driving) the converter starts to take power from the starter battery and charge the leisure battery with it, meanwhile the alternator keeps topping up the starter battery. There are several models available and most likely there are other brands than Victron as well, so speak with a reliable dealer or have a look on the Victron website to see if they can help you to determine what you want.
The problem as I said is they are very expensive. You are talking about 200 plus euros. Do not forget that the minimum salary is only 635 euros.
An MPPT-charger has a voltage drop of 1-2Vdc, as most DC-DC -converters. A PWM-one will have lower drop over itself. However, I would recommend a better suitable setup like a DC-DC converter that is more suited for creating a suitable voltage from the vehicles battery and alternator.
And with DC-DC converters with a voltage drop I meant buck-converters.
Use a dc to dc charger via alternator www.amazon.com/Victron-Energy-Orion-Tr-Non-Isolated-Bluetooth/dp/B086Q8YNJZ
Lead acid batteries are the technology of choice for guys who like to brag about the brand of oil or gasoline they like to put in their vehicles.
I have 16 VR solar vrs12-175f AGM by C&d technologies.. hooked up in 48vdc. They rock for my house ✌️
i actually use an agm 12 volt battery for my solar tracker, that is about all they are good for.
I'm too poor for lithium technology, I was quoted over £7k for Li and £2,600 for lead carbon (8×160ah 12V ea (48v system) ). The Victron shunt has only recorded 56 life cycles in over 2 years, we're totally off grid, with 2x3kva multiplus in parallel and a 10kva generator backup, our usage for a year on comparison sites is approximately= to a £35 a month bill , I used less than £50 of red diesel for Nov to Feb.
Get a battery PACK from an EV from a scrap yard! I got a 32kWh PACK for £2500 in Norway + import taxes and shipping. I looked Up the the VIN number of the vehicle, so I knew the production year, 2017 and the mileage 1500mi, beforehand.
@@Tore_Lund I like the idea of using an EV pack, Victron rate there Lead carbon batteries for 500+ full DOD to 10.8 Volts, so with our current use only 10/15% per day it "should" be many more. I'm hopeful they will last 5 to 7 years, anything more is a bonus, for us the price of £7k for lithium and then my first 3kva inverter etc, would have cost £10k we could have got grid power for £11k. We didn't go off grid through choice my original quote to get grid power was £1800 but due to policy changes we now have to upgrade the supply to cater for future expansion, somebody has to pay for the supply to power EV's and heat pumps.
I was using lots of flooded lead acid leisure batteries...It's still interesting for us luddites
Maybe un tour country it's easier to use litium but in our third World it's too expensive so we are stuck with lead acid, for example ln mi country a 100 ah LiPo Will cost on average 500 American dólar while a AGM cost 200 so most of the solar sistems here use AGM, by the way I'm in Colombia
Prices are wildly different. But keep in mind that a 100Ah lithium battery actually has 100Ah usable capacity while you can only use 50% from a lead acid battery. So the difference is actually not that big any more.
Test wasn't done at 25 degrees this is why the capacity is lower.
Good engineering practice is to operate on the flat or "low" slope of the curve. Once you pass the knee of the curve, where the slope gets large, things get difficult to control. Going past the knee of the curve is like jumping off a cliff.
In the case of a battery discharge curve, going past the knee of the curve risks damaging the battery at the expense of a little extra energy extraction.
Once you hit the knee the battery is essentially discharged.
Yeah, that makes sense for most batteries or cells I would say.
What's up bro?
In a solar charging setup, getting a 20hr charge time is impossible
Unless you have massive capacities, right?
@@OffGridGarageAustralia I think Ross means you won't get 20 hours of contiguous sunshine in order to do a 20 hour charge (unless it's summer and you are north of the arctic circle or south of the antarctic circle). It's possible if charging from another storage source but that would be silly :)
20h was the discharge time to meet the specified capacity but you can charge with 01.C. Still very slow charging.
I had $3000 of AGM batteries in series with another $3,000 worth. One shorted out and Drew all the ones paralleled with it down and ruined them one afternoon. The charge controller pushed the series set over voltage and ruined all those. There's no BMS system designed for 12 volt batteries. If there was one monitoring every battery it would have shut it all down saving my battery Bank from complete destruction. If you're using lead batteries please get single cell batteries and use a BMS otherwise designed for lithium to monitor and balance them. People say lead acid don't need a balancer and they're dead wrong.
Actually you can get a BMS for lead acid batteries I use a Victron but there are others
@@awesomusmaximus3766 please show me. I've looked high and low.
Travis, here is a video about how to avoid damaging parallel batteries by one faulty one. Fuse size depends on your battery setup obviously. ua-cam.com/video/Oi_VWymYSWY/v-deo.html
@@SiriusSolar Actually there's a lot of models out there just two of many
@@awesomusmaximus3766 link please.
It takes a few cycles to break in a lead acid battery with my trojan t105's it was 50 cycles I think
trigger charge . I think maybe pulse charging
Do not use AGM's for energy storage ... Poor cycle life, poor DOD.... They are designed for UPS on the rare occasion of a power outage... NOT daily cycling.
Some people do apparently...
@@OffGridGarageAustralia The people who do never produce data.
Perhaps the individual cells are not balanced that's why you're getting less capacity.
Is the difference not thst the 9Ah is to zero volts and the zero percent in the use table is on fact the lowest "safe voltage" of 9.5V hense it's less than quoted ,? LA manufacturers allways over quote Ah by listing them to a permanently damaged state 🤔
Re
feeem
Once you go lithium you can never go back to AGM
You could ask for a refund...😁
who still uses that ancient tech. might as well use a bicycle driving a generator lol
Lots of people. LiPO4 is great but it is still very expensive here in Australia and just isn't necessary in many situations.
I have just set up a 48V SLA battery bank with an off-grid all in one inverter system. It's primary purpose is household backup for grid outages, so this is a perfect application for such tech. With some solar PV I'll also use it to take a pump off grid, while the battery can act as ballast. It would be a waste to use LiPO4 for such an application.
To achieve the same outage power capacity and duration of outage coverage would have cost me 3-4 times as much using LiPO4 batteries.
My electrician has a fully off grid home and he uses a large bank of 2V FLA cells as his solar storage. Works very well.
Getting that much LiPO4 storage here is still very expensive per usable kWh. You can cut some costs by importing directly from China but it's somewhat risky. Far better to have a local supplier you can deal with for service, backup and support if something isn't right. Have a bad/damaged battery in a batch from China? Then you wait another 4 months to get a replacement.
Lead acid is a waste of time ... use lithium ... Thanks
So basically you're going to need ~20 of these batteries in order to be able to quick charge modern phones to stay at their recommended C-rate 🙄🙄
❤LiFePO4
They make a good door stop I got 20 or 30 of them but all look like they have the mumps.
Swollen? They are sulfated, full of White lead oxide = Take Them to the scrapper but check Prices first so you don't get Ripped off! Lead is valuable, so Some pay what they're Worth.
@@Tore_Lund Oh yes last load was $.29 a lb
@@offgridwanabe I sold 18, 12V 60AH batteries last year, and I got $300! Pure Lead Price is $2.25 lb. You need to call Them Up on the phone and get a quote before you show Up. Also ask about the length of scale bed, so they Think you show Up in a semi! When you pull Up with your trailer, you have a price and the name og the guy who told you.