MOBILE-FIDELITY SCANDAL!! *oops, sorry caps lock was on* John jumps on the bandwagon with a B-side.
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- Опубліковано 27 лип 2022
- John DeVore's ongoing series of music recommendations, record reviews, and musings for the DeVore Fidelity UA-cam channel and the Vinyl Community. Thoughts on speculators, business practices, market pressure, Digital vs. analog, and the nature of formats.
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I worked at Music Direct for a decade. 10 years too long. Music Direct is where all the MOFI titles ship out of. It is located in Chicago. Jim Davis is the owner. He is know for temper tantrums, kicking doors, punching holes in drywall and throwing computer monitors. No human resource department. Head manager is a shady jerk who thinks he is living in Goodfellas films. Audiophiles should stop supporting the company based on merit, honesty and decency. Who wants to support a owner who refers to warehouse staff as "idiots, lowlifes, and "retar$ed people" Ever wonder why you never see low numbers of SACDs and LPS? The owner hoards numbers #001 to #099 of each title so he can sell later on secondary market at higher rates. Over 22 people have quit in the past 4 years
@@adamlinder4939 Its true...I worked there with you for a brief period. Some of the most god awful management ever!!! I don't want people to lose their jobs, but at this point, so many staff stood by and let "whistleblowers" face abuse and constant stress that the place should be shut down. Anyone that remains there must have a form of Stockholm Syndrome to continue to support JIM who has rage issues
@@adamlinder4939
... wow!
@@FOH3663 I heard recently it is not getting any better at Music Direct. Sounds like morale is still at all time low. Owner still hasn't learned any lessons. Trying to find ways to capitalize on his dishonesty. MOFI cleaning solution is made in his "friend" garage. I think it is mostly alcohol and water based. NO special chemicals
$125 for these records and apparently at least 75% of that is in the packaging. Maybe they meant the "One Step" was the digital step?🤔 Seriously, this was a blatant scam. If the flippers get hurt, who cares. But the folks who stretched to drop that kind of coin on a product that was way overpriced and made to seem like it was something it wasn't---even if they sound great--- are the folks I feel for. MoFi should severely cut their prices on these and drop the goofy boxes and get down the road. If there are licensing agreements that limit their production of these titles, that needs to be part of their "100% transparency" going forward. And their 'apology' is pretty lame.
It’s not “overpriced” if it sells at that price in the marketplace. What you are referring to is what *you* would or would not pay. Acceptable pricing is not defined by one individual, whether that’s you or me.
@@PanAmStyle It was 'overpriced' if they lied about what it actually was; which they admitted they did. Now that they have (kind of) come clean, they can adjust prices or not. If they still continue to sell out at the higher prices, power to them--and you would be correct. We'll see.
@@DismasM Whatever
I worked at Music Direct for a decade. 10 years too long. Music Direct is where all the MOFI titles ship out of. It is located in Chicago. Jim Davis is the owner. He is know for temper tantrums, kicking doors, punching holes in drywall and throwing computer monitors. No human resource department. Head manager is a shady jerk who thinks he is living in Goodfellas films. Audiophiles should stop supporting the company based on merit, honesty and decency. Who wants to support a owner who refers to warehouse staff as "idiots, lowlifes, and "retar$ed people" Ever wonder why you never see low numbers of SACDs and LPS? The owner hoards numbers #001 to #099 of each title so he can sell later on secondary market at higher rates. Over 22 people have quit in the past 4 years
@@PanAmStyle Cogent analysis. I appreciate your contribution.
Great take John. I personally don’t care if they continue mastering from DSD. For me, it has little to do with the sound quality (which has been great.) What I care about is their manufactured FOMO(limited run numbers) and misleading advertising which allowed them to command a higher price tag. If I purchase Thriller, VH, etc., I feel like I will be enabling their poor business practices.
I worked at Music Direct for a decade. 10 years too long. Music Direct is where all the MOFI titles ship out of. It is located in Chicago. Jim Davis is the owner. He is know for temper tantrums, kicking doors, punching holes in drywall and throwing computer monitors. No human resource department. Head manager is a shady jerk who thinks he is living in Goodfellas films. Audiophiles should stop supporting the company based on merit, honesty and decency. Who wants to support a owner who refers to warehouse staff as "idiots, lowlifes, and "retar$ed people" Ever wonder why you never see low numbers of SACDs and LPS? The owner hoards numbers #001 to #099 of each title so he can sell later on secondary market at higher rates. Over 22 people have quit in the past 4 years
@@adamlinder4939 Wow. Eye opening to say the least.
Agreed
My issue is that I feel like Mofi was not honest in their representation of the product.
I worked at Music Direct for a decade. 10 years too long. Music Direct is where all the MOFI titles ship out of. It is located in Chicago. Jim Davis is the owner. He is know for temper tantrums, kicking doors, punching holes in drywall and throwing computer monitors. No human resource department. Head manager is a shady jerk who thinks he is living in Goodfellas films. Audiophiles should stop supporting the company based on merit, honesty and decency. Who wants to support a owner who refers to warehouse staff as "idiots, lowlifes, and "retar$ed people" Ever wonder why you never see low numbers of SACDs and LPS? The owner hoards numbers #001 to #099 of each title so he can sell later on secondary market at higher rates. Over 22 people have quit in the past 4 years
@@adamlinder4939In other words, a successful businessman?
Wow. That analogy about the abused / abandoned dogs barking their heads off as you walk by the house… That was on point! Thank you for your insight, one of the few commentaries I’ve watched that seem to have a good grasp on this whole shit show.
Agree! I literally got a rush when he said that.
I worked at Music Direct for a decade. 10 years too long. Music Direct is where all the MOFI titles ship out of. It is located in Chicago. Jim Davis is the owner. He is know for temper tantrums, kicking doors, punching holes in drywall and throwing computer monitors. No human resource department. Head manager is a shady jerk who thinks he is living in Goodfellas films. Audiophiles should stop supporting the company based on merit, honesty and decency. Who wants to support a owner who refers to warehouse staff as "idiots, lowlifes, and "retar$ed people" Ever wonder why you never see low numbers of SACDs and LPS? The owner hoards numbers #001 to #099 of each title so he can sell later on secondary market at higher rates. Over 22 people have quit in the past 4 years
One of the more insightful & articulate videos on this topic. Thank you...
I like your way but I have to politely disagree. I would still buy their one steps if were sold for 50-60 dollars. The problem is that they priced non organic food as organic. It might taste better but you pay premium for the process. I think, especially in the US, MOFI is or will be in legal trouble.
I would love to see John do a blind listening setup with all of the obvious controls, to prove that he can hear the difference between a vinyl transfer of a digital master versus a digital file. He uses a lot of words hear to sound believable, but I'd like to see actual back up to all the language he uses around vinyl "in his opinion" being better, more _______, "temporal paste", etc. If I were him, I'd have already proven that to myself to justify such a strong in opinion. John, have you taken such a test?
I am not into vinyl, my son is. I use streaming. The conclusion I have come to about all playback is,”If it sounds good, or is the best sound you have found for a given song, what does it matter how you got the the point of enjoyment”
With streaming, we can never own the music.
This is a slap in the face of the so called "audiophiles" people that say they can hear differences and nuances nobody can.
This is definitely the first video on this topic that I can agree to 100%. 🖤
I love hearing your take on this. Thank you.
I agree with everything you said about speculators driving up prices on the secondary market. We have to lay some of the blame for that on the record company though. The speculators only profit because of limited editions. If the record companies stopped making limited editions there would be no speculators.
But here is the real con. If they are OK with lying about souse material.... you trust them to release only a limited number of pressings? What happens when they announce a limited run to drive up the price then, later down the line, decide to print a few hundred thousand more. Money for old rope. And i'm sure the artist is not getting a slice of this pie.
Great Vid thanks. I have found your comments to be true in my case after 50 years buying music on record and CD
I agree with you that the MoFi one-steps are awesome sounding vinyl but why lie to the consumer just to jack up the price!. I won’t be buying any more one-steps unless they bring the prices down or I really want and need that specific title…
I think you answered your question. You lie to the consumer precisely so you can inflate the price.
I applaud your willingness to get out of an abusive relationship with MoFi. I keep saying that one of the reasons that capitalism is starting to fail is that consumers are failing to participate in their half of the system. If consumers buyers won't discriminate between good products and bad ones, good deals and bad ones, or refuse to buy things from sellers that they know they cannot trust, the whole mechanism of an open market ceases to work. If we as consumers will let companies abuse us and continue to give them money, then we're going to need to stop kidding ourselves that we're engaging in capitalism.
@@AndyBHome This is capitalism at it's best because they have been caught out... and now it's true "price discovery". Prices need to fall if they want to stay in business. But another issue here is.... we have no way of verifying how many they are pressing... far more than they are telling us i bet.
It reminds me of when in the late 70s when Roger Waters hired a helicopter to do a head count at some of Floyd's gigs. The record company were telling the band that they were selling 70,000 tickets per show while Roger was getting reports back of 100,000 people at these gigs.... The music industry is more corrupt than banking and finance.
@@janedoe6350 excellent points, especially about how capitalism might actually work in this case. It's also true that one of the problems record companies, book publishers, concert promoters, magazine publishers, TV stations, etc. have to contend with is verifying the number of issues or viewers. It's a part of any publishing contract and there are usually some measures taken to ensure the person/people getting the royalty payments aren't getting cheated.
What turntable do you use and what device do you use for digital playback? I think this has a lot to do with which sounds better, analog or digital.
hey john awsome channel , what do you shave your head with ?
If a company is going to be dishonest and charge me $125 plus for a digital file recording that I can get for 25 bucks to 50 bucks, disguising it as a analog. You can keep that shit! It has nothing to do with the quality of music it’s about dishonesty. Another thing why do they keep saying on the website out of print? When we clearly know now it is a digital file, that stored on a hard drive. They can press as many copies as they want, at any time. Once again dishonest. That’s some bullshit!
The reason they can't make more is not because they are technically incapable of doing it, but because their agreement with the publisher limits how many they can make. But your totally right that they were trying to make it seem as if they just couldn't even make more because of technical limitations, which we now know was just a complete scam.
Mr. Devore says he'd rather listen to a DSD file that's been converted to an analog signal on a vinyl record. I admire him at least for being willing to admit that it doesn't make any sense.
@@AndyBHome What if the publisher is getting a kick back? They can print as many as they want and the customer can't do jack without evidence like video confession (as in the case of MoFi). Wake up! This the music industry man. Agreements mean nothing unless you have proof of breach of contract and pockets deep enough to go through the courts. The music industry is full of snakes.... always has been.
@@janedoe6350 in this case the records are numbered. There could indeed be some collusion to cheat the copyright holders, but the more people are in on it, the less likely they can keep it secret. A third party can be employed to ensure extra copies are not made and sold. I think bookkeeping audits are the standard means of checking this sort of thing though. The producers aren't usually greedy enough to try to cheat each other because they're all wary of this sort of thing and know they're being carefully scrutinized by their partners. If anyone found two of these issues with the same number, the lawyers would be sending the letter of demands for breach of contract immediately. I know it could happen, but I'm this case I find it hard to believe it would. On something lower profile, sure.
@@AndyBHome I suggest that MoFi fans put some sort of on-line data base together to register their serial numbers against their names as you have no way of knowing if other people have duplicates.
It's fine serialising records but if you have no way of checking it is rather toothless.
Very interesting and informed perspective, thank you.
Thank you so much John. Spot on words.
I'm not surprised that a vinyl copy played on your system sounds different than a DSD copy of the same master, even if the same DSD source was used to make the vinyl. The process of cutting a lacquer, making a stamp and pressing the vinyl and then playing it with your turntable, cartridge and phono pre-amp will all color the sound in some way. This coloring doesn't have to sound 'bad' and can in fact make the sound more pleasing. Human ears don't measure S/N ratio, harmonic distortion, wow and flutter, etc. We just subjectively judge the sound to what pleases us. The DSD original might 'technically' be better, but it might not please your ears the same way. Your ears might just be 'tuned' to enjoy the specific coloring your system produces.
it's called pink noise, the "Vinyl of Oz'. Vinyl '''ssccchhhhhuuuushhhh" baked in to everything. Like baby soothing white noise CDs. It's an additive to the original magnetic tape source. People get used to it, or trade on it, or spend lives trying to reduced the added noise floor....very, very, expensively. Also RIAA bass ....that's like adding thickener back into a freeze dried soup....and that's where you get to 50k vinyl rig sellers pitching their tents for their special sauce sound.....
I worked at Music Direct for a decade. 10 years too long. Music Direct is where all the MOFI titles ship out of. It is located in Chicago. Jim Davis is the owner. He is know for temper tantrums, kicking doors, punching holes in drywall and throwing computer monitors. No human resource department. Head manager is a shady jerk who thinks he is living in Goodfellas films. Audiophiles should stop supporting the company based on merit, honesty and decency. Who wants to support a owner who refers to warehouse staff as "idiots, lowlifes, and "retar$ed people" Ever wonder why you never see low numbers of SACDs and LPS? The owner hoards numbers #001 to #099 of each title so he can sell later on secondary market at higher rates. Over 22 people have quit in the past 4 years
@@adamlinder4939 Sounds like a pretty toxic environment.
@@MacXpert74 Indeed indeeed
Just the turntable itself rotating makes it a very special kind of "DAC" with realistic properties. On the plate there is no longer bits, but it is a continuous medium. If it is all on a chip something similar needs to be constructed out of software.
In the Dacs you have sharp dacs with attack, or soothed out ones. There are no 2 dacs that agree on the sound. This shows that all of them are reconstructing the sound artificially.
A simple question, in your opinion for similar cost audio systems, one based on Vinyl and another based on CD (let's say a $1000 system) which one has the most chances to deliver a better sound?
Cd
Sorry, but what they did is fraud, sound quality is irrelevant. They printed limited copies on the assumption that one-steps were cut from master tapes. This meant a run of the tape for about every 1000 pressings. The limited number is what made them expensive and rare. But since the source is actually DSD they essentially could have pressed millions if they wanted. They will be lucky if not get hit by lawsuit or trade commission investigation. They made the descriptions vague enough to maybe get away with it. Though their customer service was telling buyers explicitly that there is no digital processing. Disgraceful behaviour, I have cancelled everything and not buying from them until they become completely transparent. There is no justification for 120 dollars price for DSD pressings.
All true, it's a very bad situation for MoFi, I agree completely.
This is nonsense. One step production has absolutely nothing do with the question whether the source is analog or digital.
@@markusberzborn6346 you can technically run infinite numbers of lacquers from digital transfers as you are not limited to availability of master tapes. In case of MoFi the scarcity of their pressings was implied by the use of original master tapes but now we know that shouldn't have been the case.
You can also make an analogue copy and run infinite numbers of lacquers. This is not the point. The point is firstly your license, i.e. how many LPs you are allowed to press by the licensor and secondly the stamper production. Mostly limited editions are a marketing instrument, and MFSL is by far not the only company using it. Other companies make much more limited editions, often even far less than 1000 per title and this has nothing to do with the master tape. Fonè from Italy for example make their own analogue recordings, they do not even have to return the tapes to someone. Still they strictly limit their editions.
Sorry, but you lost me at "sound quality is irrelevant". THAT IS WHAT WE SPEND BIG MONEY ON EQUIPMENT AND RECORDINGS TO GET!
Did you watch The 'In' Groove's video where he visited MoFi? I think they made a compelling case for WHY they have done this, but the problem is with the marketing team that didn't EXPLAIN it.
For the most part record companies no longer allow their master tapes from leaving their locations. MoFi wants to use the mastering chain they have perfected, but without tapes what are they to do? Shut the doors? They claim that they compared a 15 IPS copy to the 4XDSD and found the 4XDSD more transparent to the original source. They wanted the best way to bring the master to their location for cutting.
And to DSD, have you heard 4XDSD? I have a friend who has a 4XDSD copy of Cannonball Adderley's Somethin' Else in 4XDSD that I would easily put up against my 45 RPM Analogue Productions version. If well done, it can be the most transparent reproduction possible. It has a high enough sampling rate that any Nyquist Frequency issues are moot.
Would you prefer a worse sounding record that is from an analog tape?
May I ask, if You were to pick Your top five vinyl albums for absolute highest level of recreated realism and fidelity, which albums would be your choices? Thank You Kindly
Sent over by "The Jazz Bums" to check this upload out. 😎 This was a more positive take on things. What I have heard most is the desire for more transparency with these companies. (great shirt btw) 😊
But will your vendor choice switch or shift?
Thanks to Mofi, now we know. Now that it has shown us the mirror,the main question remains is if a DSD mastered LP sounds better than the DSD itself and even in many cases better than all other available formats-older LP issues and others,we audiophiles should embrace this technique. The life of such LPs is now essentially unlimited.
Also the limited playbacks of the master tapes used for these digital LPs production will surely increase the life of the master tapes used for production and lead to its less degradation. So more for the future generations. Enjoy audiophiles,while the sun shines and the rhythm is on. 👍
2:15 those are beautiful words, they bring a tear to my eye
Vinyl probably sounds better because it rolls off the high frequencies, so you get a "warmer" sound
Thank you, John.
Great insight re. this issue!!
When Mofi started their One Step bit it reminded me of when the Transcendental Meditation folks started claiming they could teach people to levitate/fly. My BS meter jumped right into the red. Obviously, Mofi defrauded customers by even implying that their LP process was all analog when it wasn't. That aside, perhaps the best thing to happen would be triple-blind tests comparing Mofi LPs with the Mofi SACD Hybrid edition of the same recording. My guess is that not even the most HUTA vinylphiles will be able to reliably tell the difference.
Yes, it is only a Placebo effect. No one can tell a difference, not even the "Transcendental meditation" Gurus. ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
Got to love that vynal distortion brow.
Love the (abused dog) analogy, wish I had thought of that one.
Can I ask, why all the coloured stickers on your records???
Did a video on that! ua-cam.com/video/S5nDEp_WDZg/v-deo.html
A high end audio company fudging details to the end customer... Unbelievable.
🤣👍
Touché
Welcome to the music industry!
I worked at Music Direct for a decade. 10 years too long. Music Direct is where all the MOFI titles ship out of. It is located in Chicago. Jim Davis is the owner. He is know for temper tantrums, kicking doors, punching holes in drywall and throwing computer monitors. No human resource department. Head manager is a shady jerk who thinks he is living in Goodfellas films. Audiophiles should stop supporting the company based on merit, honesty and decency. Who wants to support a owner who refers to warehouse staff as "idiots, lowlifes, and "retar$ed people" Ever wonder why you never see low numbers of SACDs and LPS? The owner hoards numbers #001 to #099 of each title so he can sell later on secondary market at higher rates. Over 22 people have quit in the past 4 years
@@adamlinder4939 Thank you for posting your experience.
Great commentary. Just regarding the DSD comparison. Isn't the digital master taken from the tape a DXD file (4 times regular DSD). Is the commercially available DSD files DXD? I know SACDs are just regular DSD. I would assume this would make a difference in the digital file playback comparison.
yes. DXD beats out everything in fidelity capturing of a magnetic tape. It's downsampled for a SACD.s They do this because I would think file format limits, and the fact that if you had a DXD of a maganetic master tape - you have the master. And the artists, and the coroporates are never going to want you to have that. The vinyl is a previous previous previous generations lossy attempt to copy a magnetic tape. I prefer SACD because vinyl is just adding soothing pink noise to the whole sound - I work in radio - which people get to like, or treasure, or sell..... yep, the artwork....... IMHO in all cases though, physical media is the way to go if you love music (for artists royalties and for you losing access to all of ? all of ? in a streaming dispute)
John is always on point! No Daytona in my future either, have to live with a Speedmaster for my next purchase!
Excellent take on this situation. The most balanced and reasonable I’ve heard yet.
I love the sound of most of the MoFis too but I won't do the One Steps because of the wasteful boxes. Horrible environmental kill buzz just like UHQRs (FYI the recent Kevin Grey cut Marvin Gay 50th anniversary trumps the MoFi One Step) . MoFi's too late tepid response is so bull$hit too.
I agree they just look pig ugly. That's even after trying to forgive them systematically ruining cover design by putting those banners across the top.
You are correct that the Kevin Gray cut Marvin Gaye does sound better than the MoFi. I think MoFi is going to get burned on the Michael Jackson and might be forced to drop prices.
Thank you. This is the most intelligent response yet.
Great review
Egos were hurt. So good to hear it's effecting the profit for flippers.
Hi John
Loved the rant and agree with everything you stated. You and Michael Fremer are two of my favourite people in our crazy audiophile world. I especially liked your comments on the speculators!!
For me, I'm not buying vinyl for a future profit, I'm buying to listen to bands I enjoy. Like this video. Good job. I think MoFi just needs to label the albums appropriately.
I worked at Music Direct for a decade. 10 years too long. Music Direct is where all the MOFI titles ship out of. It is located in Chicago. Jim Davis is the owner. He is know for temper tantrums, kicking doors, punching holes in drywall and throwing computer monitors. No human resource department. Head manager is a shady jerk who thinks he is living in Goodfellas films. Audiophiles should stop supporting the company based on merit, honesty and decency. Who wants to support a owner who refers to warehouse staff as "idiots, lowlifes, and "retar$ed people" Ever wonder why you never see low numbers of SACDs and LPS? The owner hoards numbers #001 to #099 of each title so he can sell later on secondary market at higher rates. Over 22 people have quit in the past 4 years
@@adamlinder4939 Dude how many times are you going to "copy-n-paste" your whining underneath other people's comments? Good god, get a grip at least you left the company. Count your blessings and move-on, no one cares.
Hi John, I appreciate your sincere take on audio and vinyl, and that you don't feel the urge to rationalize your preference. I disagree with the implication that resellers are (solely) responsible for the insane price of second-hand audiophile reissues. Surely it takes two to tango, the other party being audiophiles themselves. If audiophiles did not only have a reputation for paying high prices for equipment and records in the first place, and, more importantly, if they didn't actually pay them, the second-hand prices would surely come down. I believe this is true for all the other hobbies you mentioned as well. The resellers are simply exploiting a consumer base with a proven track record for falling prey to various hype machines. It doesn't happen in every market. (Edit: I just realized I left my comment on the wrong video before so I copied and pasted it here!)
I think you nail what I have have been trying to say (not nearly as eloquently) that an extremely well mastered album from DSD - the vinyl playback of that can be sublime.
Transparency will happen. Consumers will have changed producer. Great video.
.
Perfectly stated, John!
It was fraudulent. They sold us gold cable, but within the cable… it was copper. Even if copper sounds good, this is not the point.
oh well ;-) great video!!
Hi John,
Just saw your intro of the celebratory O / 20’s on Michael’s channel…..they look absolutely spectacular in the chosen veneer and finish. Talk about aesthetically pleasing. Wow!! What a way to complement a beautiful room. I bet it took some real finesse to decide who was awarded the privilege of buying only 1 of 20 pairs, betting the demand was stronger than the supply.
I have never seen or heard your product in the flesh, since there are no dealers here in Western New York. Nonetheless, next time I’m in the Boston area, I will be sure to stop in at Goodwins High End (love the place) to most likely marvel at what I see and hear your great work.
Unfortunately my audio buying days are over (I’m happy with my kit and now focus on music discovery) and your speakers are well beyond my budget. However, I definitely recognize great taste in audio when I see and hear it.
I think you and Michael, along with Herb, are the coolest guys on the audio scene. The combo of a love of music, audio and a classical art education are the perfect traits of a sophisticated audiophile IMO. And obviously aesthetics matter a great deal.
Keep going man! I especially love your new series of Devore owner pics. I could watch them for hours. Seeing audio / music immersed into someone’s personal lifestyle is so cool and intriguing to me.
Cheers!
michael
Thank you, what a great comment!
Thanks John!
would you actually sit and listen to thriller for your enjoyment,or do you just buy thriller just to have?
very good, very good...love the cat!
I wonder how this will affect Andrew Jones and his upcoming speaker line. If the speakers were going to be branded MoFi, that could be pretty tough. Probably need a different brand name (maybe even Andrew Jones’s name) if that wasn’t already planned. Hopefully it doesn’t completely kibosh the entire plan.
I wonder about that too. I think ppl realize he has nothing to do with the vinyl dept. He should renegotiate though since his name is valuable. In the end no press is bad press
@@PlaybackMansion I heard that Andrew Jones is actually a CGI.
@@korbindallas6727 I met him at AXPONA this year and that is completely false. He's actually a robot from MIT
@@PlaybackMansion False. It was Rowan Atkinson as Andrew Jones as a bot from MIT. Do your research! lol And John, sorry for the tangent on your video.
I was unaware of this issue until I watched this video, John. I have a few older MoFi offerings from their “Original Master Recording” line. Hope the affordability of their current line improves so that I can grab a few. Currents prices are a little too dear for me.
No way! This was misleading and criminal! False advertising is illegal in this country! Think about companies on the S & P lying about financials.
I suspect the biggest difference between the direct DSD file and vinyl playback is the ability to finally master the source material when cutting the lacquer. It’s not being mastered when MoFi makes the DSD copy. The only way to master the DSD file and keep it digital is to convert to PCM, master, then convert back to DSD… not ideal.
Well put, without acting arrogant or condescending towards other opinions!
Great summary... In full agreement with you.. You're now the second manufacturer that has come out on youtube talking about how DSD cut Vinyl sounds better than DSD playback via a DAC.. Paul M. from PS Audio mentioned the same about their Octave Vinyl records cut from DSD sounding "Better". In the case of PS Audio, I imagine they are comparing their vinyl playback which is likely the VPI TT, PSAudio Phono compared to their own top DAC playing back DSD... I remember your phono in past videos, but what is your DSD DAC?
I took my previous comment down as I read in the comments about the DSD part, I did not understand that the records originated from DSD rather than analog tapes. It does make me wonder if the coloration of vinyl is what the real difference is between a pure direct DSD download and that same DSD played via a digital source though more pure sounds not as good?
To me as I get older what I have come to realise for me is that coloration, distortion or warmth over absolute clarity is how I am engrossed in the music more so I go for my tube headphone amp which I use to make my digital music sound more enjoyable to my ears!
I have to say though, if I paid a huge amount for a record that I was made to believe came from the original tape masters and thus a lower run justified the considerable extra cost due to the finite amount of times the tape could be used and then found out it came from a digital copy and the limited run was simply marketing schtick to make extra money I would be royally pissed off! I most certainly would not now want to pay such a high premium for fancy packaging. Shlep them out for fifty bucks a pop in a regular cover in a non limited run as we now know the “limited” is pure marketing rather than based upon a fragile original source!
I am a forgiving sort of person usually. If a company makes a design mistake or you get a dud item and the company puts it right then you have a future customer in me, tell an outright lie as in this case and it’s goodbye for good as this is a business not a personal relationship and they have done the ultimate business non forgivable thing, lie!
You can always play back DSD files using a DAW (Digital Audio Workstation) and use a VST Plugin to emulate tape or vinyl if you have that taste. Vinyl mainly sounds different because it's mastered differently than CD and tape.
For starters, you have to take off some or all of the compression because the cutting heads just can't be driven that hard constantly. It will trigger it's thermal trips even when cooled with argon. (CD on the other hand can be brick wall compressed without issue).
Secondly, you'er gonna have to limit the acceleration of sudden high frequency sound with vinyl. You may be able to cut it.... but only the very best tone arms and cartridges will be able to track it without distortion. (Not an issue with CD, you can create hi-end acceleration that's faster and more harsh than what would ever exist in nature).
And finally, any out of phase bass / low end sound will have to be summed into mono to prevent tracking errors. (Again, with CD, just not an issue. The recording engineer could have had a rack tom drum mic out of phase with the left overhead mic and that error will play back fine on CD without any tracking problems - won't sound very good though).
Mastering for vinyl requires a higher level of skill than any other format.... and you can hear it! Because if forces the engineer to lay down the sound to the same laws you find in nature. Because cutting it is physical and the process of playback is kinetic. So you have to follow the law of physics.
When mastering for reel-to-reel release you only need roll off the frequencies above 60KHz and below 35Hz
When mastering for compact cassette you only need roll off the frequencies above 15KHz and below 80Hz, add a little compression and your noise reduction.
When mastering for CD you roll off the frequencies above 20KHz and below 20Hz and compress the hell out of it.
And that my friend... is a crash course in mastering!
"Not an issue with CD, you can create hi-end acceleration that's faster and more harsh than what would ever exist in nature" Please explain how "acceleration" applies to CDs as it does in the reference for vinyl and stylus "acceleration". If what you actually mean is transients, CDs suck at it! Human hearing can detect transients as fast as 10μs, equivalent to 100KHz. 5 times the transient response capabilities of Red Book/ CD.
@@glenncurry3041 OK, imagine a vinyl cutting head with the stylus ploughing a groove into lacquer but, the signal being recorded is that of complete silence. The grove is shallow and straight. All of a sudden there is a symbol crash. The stylus digs deeper into the lacquer and swings wildly from left to right at high speed (frequency), then decays over time until cutting a silent signal again.
If you were to look at the grove under a microscope it would look like a readout from a seismograph (an instrument for recording earthquakes on paper).
You would see the straight line then a large wild squiggle.
The point at which the "straight line" becomes a "wild squiggle" (the start of the symbol crash) is almost a perfect right angle.
If a playback stylus tried to play this recording,.. at the point the groove changes direction 90 degrees... the playback stylus would just jump out the grove because it can't turn 90 degrees when travelling at 33.3 rpm.
The idea of the "acceleration limiter " is to put a slight radius on the start of that "symbol crash, allowing the stylus to make that sharp 90 degree turn without jumping out the groove .
In driving terms.... you have reshaped the sharp corner into a gradual bend... and as we all know.... it's easier to steer a car around a bend at 33mph than take a 90 degree corner at 33mph, without coming off the road.
The better the quality of tonearms and cartridge on the playback turntable... the smaller that radius needs to be (audiophile recordings).
A low cost suitcase record player on the other hand, would need a larger "radius" (more acceleration limiting) to playback the recording without the stylus "jumping" out.... in other words... a tracking error.
In tonearms... we call this "compliance".
CD and Tape doesn't have to do any of this because it's not kinetic. i.e. nothing in relation to sound is actually moving.
How does it relate to the real world? Well our inner ear is fluid filled. The fluid acts as a damper. So the human body applies it's own acceleration limiting..... so when it comes to high frequency symbol crashes.... the human ear knows no difference.... CD, Tape, or Vinyl!
Hope that answers your question
@@janedoe6350 Nope you failed completely to even try to address it.
"The point at which the "straight line" becomes a "wild squiggle" (the start of the symbol crash) is almost a perfect right angle." WRONG! Not a cutting head system in the world can move instantly, simple laws of physics. Just as no music source would ever generate an instantaneous transition. The concept is absurd for audio.
And you contradict yourself from your original: "...CD, you can create hi-end acceleration"
To: "CD and Tape doesn't have to do any of this because it's not kinetic. i.e. nothing in relation to sound is actually moving." So first for a CD you create acceleration, but then CD's don't have any of this? Which is it?
But back to the actual discussion, not your attempted red herring.
Assuming "acceleration" if existing in either or both relates to transients, as I stated "CDs suck at it! Human hearing can detect transients as fast as 10μs, equivalent to 100KHz. 5 times the transient response capabilities of Red Book/ CD." and that overheated cutting head has been proven to cut and a playback system play, up to a 125KHz transient. over SIX TIMES greater than Red Book!
@@glenncurry3041 Then explain "acceleration limiting"!
@@glenncurry3041 ua-cam.com/video/JYQi5uG94Ec/v-deo.html
By far the best rational explanation of the situation. I own @70 MoFi releases dating back to the 80's, had quite a lengthy pause in the early 2000's. My personal position is not Digital vs Analog, I'm an Analog guy first, but I always sought out the best sounding copy I could AFFORD. Well now knowing the chain there's a speculation in my mind that I might be able to get a similar sounding version for less allowing me to use the saved funds for other releases, the exclusivity factor they always touted. My biggest peeve is they did this without changing their publications and for quite some time and secondly their response was as vague as what caused the problem. I'm going to be very objective in future buys not always defaulting to believing their release will be best but seeking alternatives that may be close but allow me fit more in my meager budget of a semi-retired person.
Some people say the sacd is better but sacd can only hold dsd 64 but the file they create from the tape is dsd 256
Well Said, Sir !
You say, that DSD sourced MFSL vinyl sounds better than the file. MFSL does DSD256 copies. Could You here them - or "only" for instance the DSD64 SACDs. Maybe that's part of the difference as well?
Not just speculators. Lots of hobbyists feel strongly about their gear and material being produced following a specific doctrine.
What if I told you your favorite NOS 300B tube was just a lightbulb with a microchip in the base?
After you paid out the ass for it?
thanks
Why would you want to buy reissued instead of trying to get the original pressing of the records?
Extremely well expressed, John. I still very much enjoy my MoFi records, but the company has seemed to gone a bit astray since being bought by Music Direct as I believe we’ve seen, and I’ll still buy the occasional LP from them. My experience has been that vinyl playback is the most pleasant to my ears as well, and besides reputable peoples opinion, there’s information out there that supports that in music therapy. Thanks, John.
Thumbs up, I agree 100%, I think you got it right.
John, something to mull over on a daily walk…
Perhaps the most overlooked aspect of analog and digital debate is egalitarianism. [Importantly, what follows is *not* intended as vailed support for stealing music.]
Setting aside variables that *can* be controlled like technique, the resultant quality of a recording is an unavoidable stacking of duplications from recording, to mixing, to mastering, to producing media. Since the act of duplicating analog is inherently imperfect and, worse, damages the source each time it is duplicated, the highest quality analog representations are those duplicates made early and with shallower duplication stacks. Shallow stacks can only support the production of limit quantities and their economics are driven by this scarcity.
Cost aside, the fact that analog duplication is inherently lossy means it simply is not possible for everyone to enjoy the same high quality analog recording. In this zero-sum game, my ability to listen to a high quality analog recording means that I’m depriving someone else of that same privilege; analog does not scale gracefully. Digital’s inherently perfect duplication makes it a non-zero-sum game. Egalitarianism is an important advantage to digital.
Enjoyed this video and your insight John. Thanks!
I agree with you, completely. Thanks!
The real question is: if you knew there was a digital step, would you have quickly dismissed MoFi or given them a chance?
Hi John,
I found your monologue very well reasoned. There are a few aspects of the inherent distortion of vinyl that, to my ear, make it so appealing:
1. Smooth increase in crosstalk with frequency. Gives a wonderful whole, blending sound. Makes images seem richer.
2. Bass rolloff is strong but very smooth, giving a roundness to the bass that is like a divine kind of reverb.
3. Overshoot in many cases. I think this delivers the huge dynamics we hear.
4. Treble rolloff and increased crosstalk combine to spotlight images.
The last two add a sense of greater dynamics using distortion, a neat trick.
The great blessing of this scandal is the transcription quality of some digital AD/DA conversion chains.
I do like tape better most of the time, but I don’t own any.
Cheers!
Agree with everything, their prices should drop big time. 🙏
One simple reason why the vinyl sounds better than the SACD is that the vinyl uses 4xDSD while the SACD only uses 1xDSD, 4 times the resolution. The mainly analog channels somehow miss that small but critical detail.
The mystery of analogue vinyl
great video
I feel the same way
I’m sure there are some Exceptions
Nobody can hear a DSD step. That is why they are pissed.
I love DSD!
SPOT ON, JD!
Well said
MoFi captures and I assume cuts at 4xDSD. SACD is 1xDSD. Kevin Gray, in who's ears I trust, doesn't like 1xDSD/SACD but thinks 4xDSD is the best digital format.
Owning a "good sounding" record is not as important as standing up for a staff of employees who are constantly shat upon by the owner who is a corrupt jerk
CD’s on vinyl! I scored a VG+ first press “What’s Going On” the other day for $5
DSD256 is not CD...
I like your take on it
Why digital master can sound better on vinyl? I'm not sure about that. For one, the sound reading via cartridge may play a role, but also it's possible to merge multiple low-res digital tracks from a multi-track to a high-res digital or analog format. keyword: analog summing mixers
This is like someone you love lying to you, pretty sad!
Sound better = subjective opinion.
love it ... as I buy these albums to listen ... goodbye speculators 👍😭❤️
I think we are all on an audio journey, recently I tried a digital streamer / DAC / amp combo device. It's very inexpensive but does a great job. It's a very small device that obviously doesn't use any cables to go from streamer to dac to amp. Listening to this very small device with only 35 wpc at 8 ohms driving my B&W802D speakers, brings out information and adds clarity that I haven't heard before with digital. For a while now I have suspected that digital can lose phase and clarity when having to travel between devices. I don't know enough about pro gear but perhaps the gear used in editing or saving the digital before it goes onto the vinyl doesn't suffer the same issues, and so when playing back the vinyl you're not hearing some of the things the creep in when using home digital gear. Just a thought, but it's about the only way I have of explaining why this very inexpensive box sounds better in many ways than gear that would retail for as much as $12,000 for the electronics.
BTW if they lied about the analog masters, how do you know they don't lie about it being a one step? Maybe it's just a regular record?
I agree with you, John. In the end it’s about enjoying the music, in whatever format one prefers. I buy a lot of used records at thrift shops and give them deep cleaning. Some of the pressings, especially older jazz and classical, which gives me access to excellent music and audio for great prices. Some, of course, are not that great sounding and digital remastered files are much better. Those who cry “fraud” may be technically correct (I’m not so sure) but I question whether they’re actually music lovers.
You don't have to be ordinary listener to refuse buying MoFi vinyl, at least for now. Sellers must show respect for their customers, because customers want to know what is included in the price. And they have every right for that, especially then the price is high. By hiding this digital "step", by implying everything is analog and by limiting amount of copies of that vinyl, they are simply creating reasons to sell their products expensive, thus basically stealing from customers. Especially from regular ones.
Great post! Agree 100%. Just wish they had been a little more pro active on how they produce the best sound possible to their customers. I’m still a buyer.
MoFi was on borrowed time?
Brilliant overview - every master tape has to have a high quality digital transfer to preserve the recordings for the future. But releasing in limited numbers at high cost claiming one step analog recordings is where it is wrong, because there is no need for them to be limited and command such high prices. No doubt mofi release great sounding records though.
I think when they were recording they had a real good quality professional DSD reproduction in difference to what is available on the consumer market.
11:20 - very fascinating point made here. I was waiting to hear an opinion on this. It could very well be that there is some additional mastering happening before the lacquer is cut that changes the sonics between the SACD and the Vinyl.
I think the reason why there's such a divide between the digital vs vinyl camps is that owning a good vinyl rig is so expensive and that it takes so much more money to get a great sounding vinyl rig than a digital one. So when most people cannot afford it (myself included), there will be an inordinate number of "trolls" dismissing the vinyl, especially since it was cut from DSD.
What you are describing is saturation. Vinyl is fun, and i love it, but it’s a compromised format. Even a well mastered redbook cd is far superior sonically-channel separation, S/N ratio, distortion, etc.
I agree with your point that people that are very annoyed with this situation are mostly concerned about the resell value of their MoFi collection. This is not bad, they have the right to express their frustration. But, I also think there's a lot of ignorance regarding vinyl production and the way that we all (MoFi and costummers) are handelling the situation can have severe consequences for the whole vinyl community. First, THERE SHOULD NOT BE SOUND DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE MASTER TAPE AND A QUAD_DSD TRASFERENCE FROM THE SAME MASTER TAPE. The sampling rate of quad-DSD is insanely high and even Fremer, who is noticeably recognized for his battle against digital sound, recognizes that he was talking about other digital formats and has even expressed that he doesn't consider DSD as "digital". Second, COMPARING THESE TWO THINGS IS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE, even if you have access to a master tape and a quad-DSD transference from the same master tape. There are differential components that you need in order to listen to both formats (e.g., a DACs, pre-amps) that would have a huge effect on the sound, so, the comparison would not be apples to apples. An scenario in which you can be close to do an apples to apples comparison is that two vinyl records are produced with these two formats but using the same exact engineer and methods to mastering for vinyl. But no company would ever be interested on doing something like that for the public, so the scenario is almost impossible. At the end, you only have two options: having faith that the master tape sounds better than a quad-quad DSD or believe in science and understand that you would never distinguish differences, independently of the cost/quality of your equipment or your hearing capabilities. So, when people say that MoFi records should not be at the same price than AP, impex (among others), they are ignoring the most important factors that make this process expensive. People should consider that they are paying for MoFi's licencing of those mayor commercial hits and the wonderful job of Wunderlich (matering for vinyl). I would love that those great sounding reissues were cheaper, but that doesn't have anything to do with MoFi's using an intermediary digital step. I believe MoFi should apologize and change their commercial ways, but I also think that UA-camrs collectors should stop campaigning against mofi and saying that SACD is the same than their vinyl records. That's such a silly claim and total disregard of the mastring for vinyl. They should stop spreading ignorance.
Great comments John and I 100% agree with your conclusions! I predict that in the end MoFi will still get $125+ for their One Steps and collectors will still pay more if in fact they are still limited runs...Why, because they sound the best. That's it.
Best video on the topic! Very insightful, transparent, personal and realistic. It buried some HiFi dogmas or tabu. Each one will make its choice about MoFi and market will tell ultimately