There is also another thing to look at. I was one of the many who bought a Gibson from their custom shops and asked for certain things done to it, and never received them. Gibson took $5,000 (approx) from me and ran with it. When confronting them about 6 months later they were nasty and said “it sent you’re crazy” and I said “it did? What is my address then?” They cursed at me and hung up. They didn’t take my calls after politely asking them to look over my order. It was heart breaking. I gave up the guitar then a few years later I bought a Chibson, I asked for the same things to be done to it. I was told not to expect them to actually do it. 2.5 months later it arrived and everything I asked for it to be done to it was done. And it played amazingly. The only issue I had was a cheap nut on it and it was an easy fix. The reason many get Chibson come to find out was because they had ordered directly from Gibsons custom shop and never received their guitars. So there is a huge community that operates with Chibson makers instead because they actually send the guitars and do what the person asks in terms of modifications. They don’t take the money and run like Gibson has done to so many people. It took me 2 years to save up the $5,000 I lost from Gibson. A rabbi doesn’t get paid much kind you.
@@malcolmhardwick4258 true. Many see it sadly as a black and white issue. And they tend to speak in absolutes and 9 times out of 10 the absolutes are not the case. Mine has been wonderful I have no complaints. And I get the feeling that I got what I wanted when Gibson took my money without giving me the guitar I purchased so it is all good in my eyes
Ive got over 120 guitars in my collection and been playing for thirty years. As a kid i lusted for the big name brands of my guitar gods. Along the way ive bought expensive gibsons that havent played like shit, and ive bought cheap knock offs that with some tlc played better than the real deal. As ive grown older, the name brand and ego stroke means so very little to me, so ill happily play copies and originals - i really dont care - i inly care that i get maximum gratification out of the instrument. The bottom line is, you play and buy what you like.
I love mine too, I got a 62 les paul custom SG copy with Bigsby. All I really had to do is level the high frets which I did myself, did the truss rod, flipped the bridge around, intonation and filed nut slots, now plays great. I play mine most of the time without amplification.
Technically, I believe "Chibson" refers to a fake Gibson guitar, meaning it actually says "Gibson" on the headstock. Fireflys are just budget guitars modelled after particular popular guitars like the LP and Srat. Even EVH's Frankenstrat looks like a Strat.
Here in Japan there is no EBay, and Reverb is not really a thing either. We use Yahoo auctions and I have seen people list Chibsons on their and saying they are fakes. I've complained to yahoo, but they don't seem to give a shiitake mushroom.
Got a Chibson SG deluxe..great platform. Traded a Vox Satchurator pedal and 2 sets of PRS se pickups. Would never try to pass off as real. Within 3 feet you can just tell. Great for the mod/fix experience tho. Full rebuild w no fear of damage 😎
We've created more laws than are possible to enforce. Sure Gibson's lawyers can prowl the NAMM shows looking for infringement, however, beyond a cease and desist letter, there's not much they can do since the courts are so jammed up. And as far as Chibsons, an easy solution is to stop the flow of counterfeit merchandise at the ports of entry. As if there are enough officials to do that.
There is no reason to buy a Chibson. Equally, there is no reason to buy an overpriced, lesser quality instrument from a company that has been around for as long as either Gibson or Fender, just because of their name. Yes, they were pioneers in the design and deployment of their iconic guitars. But the current leadership at both companies and their apparent quality standards do NOT match the prices they expect for their instruments. You can buy legal, name brand instruments from several companies that are equal to or better than the originals at either of those companies. I’ve owned and played SG’s, Stratocaster, Les Pauls, and the wooden lump called the Telecaster. I’ve also owned and hailed the ES-335, Soloist, S-500, and Fender’s original 1985 Master Series Esprit. I’ve played Ibanez and Schecter equivalents to Gibson and Fender that are far superior in workmanship, are proprietary to Ibanez and Schecter, and ARE SIGNIFICANTLY LESS EXPENSIVE THAN GIBSON OR FENDER. Importantly, they are not the only musical instrument companies that can boast those accomplishments. I’m not a professional guitarist but I have played guitar for the last 57 1/2 years; I know my way around a fretboard. My amplifiers predominately are Fenders. They are dependable, durable, quality instruments. I’ve owned inexpensive Frontman and high end Twin Reverbs. I know their limitations and I relish their strengths. Fender and Gibson have the right to protect their intelectual property. We, as the consumers, have the right to not pay F & G prices. We should boycott knockoffs and other fraudulent offerings. I don’t know that we can do much more than attempt to push those companies to the margins of the market but I’m doing my part. I hope everyone watching this video is willing to do the same.
One problem is that Gibson prices their guitars like it's the '60's and they are still one of 2 only guitar companies making instruments. Ain't like that any more! I played a HB "LesPaul" ($400 delivered) that makes a $5K Gibson look like the overpriced lump of wood it is...
About a year and a half ago I started learning how to become a luthier. I performed surgery on Squires, Epiphones, PRS SE's and Chibson's. I learned a ton about fret leveling, soldering and more thanks to a few Chinese Knockoff's I acquired. A few Chibson's I have worked on are scary close to the real deal.. some are absolute trash.. I am glad to have learned on these cheap models because now I am much more confident to do my own work on real Fenders, Gibson' ETC.. Great Video!
An absolutely incredible video on not just the topic of counterfeit instruments but ALL kinds of counterfeit products and, in a greater scale, the concept of intellectual property which is a concept lost to so many these days -- be it deceitful instrument manufacturers or people who think because X company no longer makes Y game that they have all right to create their own version of, it all applies. Seriously, loved this. I'll be sharing it often. It's up to other people to learn, though -- you can lead a horse to water and all that...
Well said Dylan. Anyone who disagrees either bought one and needs to justify it or thinks that steeling and cheating is fine. If you are a manufacturer you should always try to make something original. PRS did so no reason why others should not be able too
I totally agree with everything you said here. It is pretty bad here where I live now with the counterfeit guitars. I had never seen one with my own eyes but here I have seen several, some on stage, some in pawn shops with several $1000 price tag.
The trademark is everything. I own a Harley Benton Tele, a TE90FLT, it was the chambered ash body and Canadian maple neck were what I wanted. The bridge and tuners were junk so they were replaced with quality parts. The Rockwell pickups were fine for my use. A guitar tech then sorted out the neck, the high E was wonky, and the frets were sorted out. This is now not a bad guitar after the work has been done, more than perfect for my practice guitar. But it is not a Fender. Although the original Harley Benton decal was discarded, it was replaced with another: "HB Deluxe".
I feel the same way. For the price of a counterfeit you can buy a guitar that isn’t a lie as long as you don’t get embarrassed about the name/shape on the headstock. And it plays as good if not better then that fakes.
I just ordered a chibson. don't know or care what it says on the headstock yet. (If it says gibson I'll change that) but I ordered it strictly because its its the cheapest way to get a guitar already routed for p90s. I'm not sure if I'm going to like p90s and don't want to buy an expensive guitar. I'll buy expensive pickups and if I don't like it it will rot. If I do ill play it till it needs a fret job and take my electronics out and throw it away. I'm not a headstock snob I love my epiphones I love my squire I love my partscaster.
I used to work at Fender, and at G&L. If you think it is some huge faceless company, you should go a take a tour sometime. They are quite small companies, compared to other large companies, G&L is like three building in a strip business mall. Anyway, the fastest way to get a musician to understand what is really at steak here is to put it this way. You worked all your life at honing your craft and you finally get a hit song and a recording contact. So now you have more fans then you ever dreamed of, and they all love you and your music, so a band in a "non copy-write country" re-records your music and sells ti to your unsuspecting fans.
While I appreciate your sentiment, my personal experience buying a Chibson has been a positive one - I bought it on eBay through one of the sellers like you showed, discussed what logo I wanted on the headstock (and yes, I chose "Gibson"), waited 3 months or so for the build and shipping/customs, and received a one-piece body (mahogany with maple veneer "cap"), one-piece neck Les Paul copy with a mother of pearl logo, ABR-style bridge, fret nibs, and a poly finish that actually looks like a real Les Paul even when you're pretty close to it Granted I bought it knowing it would need a fret level and replacement EVERYTHING... which was the whole point! I wanted a guitar I could use to practice working on guitars and not worry too much in case I messed something up. I leveled, crowned, and polished the frets myself, replaced the fake Grovers with real ones, slotted the cheap plastic nut (I might replace it with a higher quality one later), replaced the pickups with Kent Armstrong Icon 57s, and added 550k push/pulls and orange drop caps with Jimmy Page wiring I don't regret buying it one bit - it was a fun project, plays/sounds killer now, and with 21 tones, it's actually my most versatile guitar. I don't plan to ever get rid of it, but if I do, I will technically just be selling the pickups and the guitar will be a gift that comes with it. I also plan to Dremel "COPY" into the back of the headstock just so nobody ever tries to pass it off as real
@Nim Chimpsky it's unquestionably lower quality than a genuine Gibson. And as with the wood, you are right - they used a maple veneer rather than a cap and I'm sure the mahogany isn't as good as Gibson's
Here's a bit of a counterpoint to your arguments. Particularly your last. I would argue chibsons actually benefit Gibson and hardly affect the income or job security of Gibson employees. Simply put, those who buy a chibson because they can't afford a Gibson would not have the money to buy a Gibson anyway if chibsons did not exist. So in no way would disappearing chibsons in some magical way put more money into the employees hands or ensure a more secure future. Now obviously Gibson has to play the part in pursuing piracy in the same way Microsoft needs to go after those who pirate their software. But broad use of Office ensures its format is the de facto standard for office files, and I'll argue that in a way chibsons do the same for Gibson. When a player goes on stage with a chibson that player is actually doing advertisement for Gibson. I would find it very unlikely that the majority of the audience would notice the difference at a distance, under concert lighting and with a beer or two on them. This is very similar to installing a bootleg version of Office with all its malware, trojans and viruses. Sure, you get all the features of the real thing (90% of which you'll probably won't use anyway), but ultimately you ensure the file format remains a standard. If said player could not get a chibson because they were wished out of existence and can not get the money to buy a real Gibson then that player would be on stage with another brand name guitar. Does kinda explain why Gibson went after Dean first. Doesn't it? So in a way buying chibsons helps perpetuate Gibson as an instrument standard which in turn makes wanting to buy a chibson an option which helps perpetuate Gibson and on and on it goes. PS I have an Epiphone Tribute Plus in black cherry which is great and although not cheap it's way less than a Gibson and probably just as good. Plus Epiphone in a way is the real deal if you go back and learn its history.
Hy Dylan Michel from The Netherlands , first thing first ,the selling of “fake” instruments is not gone after because the most parts for Gibson ,fender or other instruments come from country’s like Indonesia ,Korea,China and India , and those factory’s can sometimes make the instrument even better than the original these days , by learning to put the parts together , and Gibson and other company’s have made most of someone else’s trademark or copyright headstock’s or shapes , and they know that too , so they say come after us because these big names have infringed such things too , for instance the Gibson headstock , or the Les Paul shape wasn’t their’s to begin whit , so is their V-shape or Their explorer-shape ,and Yes the chinese cheaper guitars have cheaper electronics and stuff , but mostly that stuff was made in the Epiphone-factory , whom is a Gibson brand , and yes you are right that we don’t want these kind of things going on , but the Big brands should be more fair too ,and they shouldn’t just have the prices so high because of the brand-name , by the way Give me an Epiphone any day above Gibson , period…… Good luck whit this conversation , and I like watching the channel , thanks for hours of education and such ,greetings Michel
I only buy epiphones as they are great guitars, specially the masterbilt line. As for quality, a good set up with good strings and grover machine heads go a long ways. 2 of my acoustics I took 320 & 600 grit sand paper to the back of the neck to eliminate that shiny layer for a smooth feel. Go on Craigslist and tell some college kid you'll give them $40 for the epiphone then go spend $150-200 on hot rodding it..... You won't be disappointed!
Counterfeits make everything too suspect, and that's bad for everyone (especially someone who *doesn't* know they have a counterfeit and tries to sell it). Copies are fine (like Edwards's Gibson copies for the Japanese market) as long as the manufacturer slaps their own name on it.
Great video Dylan I’m one of the guys who did decide to buy a Chibson. Wow was I surprised when I received it. It’s a really nice guitar. I’m a luthier and of course gave it a complete setup. It has really nice low action, the intonation is spot on and it plays like butter and sounds great. I guess I just got lucky. But I understand everything you mentioned. Love your videos.
I was at a guitar shop pre-COVID and they were actively showing a Chibson Les Paul Standard. The owner told anyone looked at it that it was fake, but it was still totally sketchy. He needed to pull a 60 Cycle Hum Super Rich Steve and burn it. It kind of goes back to Napster and Limewire and pirating music and videos. People stake their lives on these products and we need to do our due diligence.
@@sassycat Don't get me wrong. I love his videos. But he always makes me smile when he pretends that "C" on a pedal stands for "church" rather than "chamber" or "cathedral". Can't help but like the dude. Except it's his fault I now "need" a Surfybear reverb.
Well if you can't sell it, and probably can't or wouldn't want to play it, why buy it or own it? Just to look at it? How could you ever fool yourself into believing it's real if you're the one who bought it? And if it's just to fool your friends, that makes no sense either.
3:07 you mentioned licensed instruments, I'm scanning through your videos seeing if I can spot a video on licensing since this one, did you make an episode on it or discuss it in a live Q&A? I'd be interested to hear about your personal experience with licensing agreeements, or what you generally know about. Like with Fender shapes. My understanding was that Fender failed to enforce their guitar shapes (at least some, like the Strat and Tele) as design trademarks, but successfully enforced their design trademarks on the headstocks and so if you're building guitars with those headstock shapes, you need to come to a licensing agreement, correct? What do licensing agreements like this entail? I know there are bigger companies who were manufacturing guitars with Fender designs prior to the 90s who managed to secure licensing agreements following the lawsuits, eg Warmoth, but what if you're an individual luthier working out of your home workshop, who's putting out a very low volume of guitars each year? I don't know what a licensing agreement between Fender and such a luthier would entail, but I had assumed it would be so prohibitively expensive and/or demanding, as to make it not worth pursuing simply for the headstock design.
The buying counterfeit hurts people part. I don't think anyone bought the $230 chibson was going to buy the $3000 gibson If chibson didn't exist. So it would actually hurt lower end companies more then gibson. Also times are not tough at all in the industry. Record breaking year. Most everything is out of stock everywhere even if youre willing to buy sight unseen you have to pre order.. My last epiphone I bought just came the other day I ordered it almost 5 months ago to the day.
I just started this whole discussion on facebook a few days ago. A lot of the guys building their own guitars are putting somebody else's logo on the headstock. I said I don't get it. I don't care who's name is on my headstock. I care about the quality of the instrument I'm playing.
I think almost anyone would agree if someone started selling 1964 ford mustang's that ford should be able to stop them and collect damages for trademark infringement. I see no difference
Well said. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. You nailed it. The last guitar I bought was a genuine guitar build a genuine company. I obviously paid more but every time I look at my beautiful guitar, l see people’s behind it and that’s important for me.
OK a philosophical, for the sake of argument question. I buy a Fender Strat. The real deal. Maybe $1000. When does it become NON-authentic? Does changing out the pickups to Dylan's after-market make it non-authentic. OK let's take this to the extreme. We replace/upgrade everything on the Strat except for the wood. Even change out the frets. We even make the body cuts to our liking and refinish the body. The neck is as purchased except we replaced the frets. Is it still authentic? The Neck still has the original as purchased Headstock with decal, serial #, etc. The body markings match the serial number. What makes the sale of this guitar legal or not? Most of us wouldn't do this but Eddie Van Halen did. I also find when I build a copy, they cost more than if I go out and just buy one. But learning the trade, I do not want to ruin a tradable guitar. Maybe my son will have to part out the guitar to get some value back. But I normally use high end Pickups and parts on my builds. I usually do my own thing on head stocks but I do like to some what copy the body shapes. Sometimes I use something similiar to a brand head stock. Where do I cross the line of being illegal to sell. I don't plan to sell anything I built, but my son might wish to after I depart this world. Sometimes I find a cheap China kit and only use the wood. I practice my setup skills and do things I wouldn't wish to do to a brand name. So I ask where do I cross that line? Again this is a question for legal and philosophical debate. :-)
Imagine a band were playing knocked-off, high-end gear onstage and someone in the audience was thinking "thank god they have decent gear or I wouldn't like them"! Greetings from UK Dylan - believe me there's tons of knocked-off gear available over here...
I think most people who care about the logo would be guitarists anyway. Normal people don't look at that kind of stuff. Most of them couldn't tell a Telecaster from a Les Paul really. And if you ARE a guitarist, it shouldn't matter to you if it says Epiphone on the headstock, because you know they sound just as good as the Gibson once you tweak the setup and throw new pickups on it.
I wish I could poast photos of my Greco GE450 I got for less than $400! Someone had already swapped out the bridge for an ABS and then I swapped the pups for Gibson 57's - WOW. I took it to a guitar show in Nashville and everyone was drooling - offered double my cost, etc... There are deals to be had WITHOUT going over to the darkside. My buddy a guitar tech has three Chibsons in his repairshop as examples of why no one should be buying these. They are sub-par at best and are like steaming off a Squire logo decal and putting on a Fender one instead, just bad taste in my opinion.
I agree with you completely. To play devil’s advocate, at this point we all know Slash played a Les Paul copy. What’s the difference between Slash playing a fake or some kid who just wants to look cool.
My brother bought them Chibson and yes, they are just as low quality as it gets. Lots and lots of defects and totally doesn't live up to what the originals should be. But to be fair, this was when Gibson was building bad guitars. So either have this cheap guitar that sucks for $150 or this expensive guitar that sucks for $1k.
Reason #6 - customs will seize it, and Gibsons lawyers will send you a really “nice” letter. Then you won’t have a guitar or the money you spent on it! Just happened to me, and mine was not supposed to have Gibson or Les Paul on it anywhere, and it still got seized!
@@josephpinkle2636 that sucks me being a Gibson player I was curious about these guitars I did order one for a mod project from a reputable Facebook group with exceptional reviews.
This may be a different question for a different time, BUT I buy any thing out of the pawn shops. Beat up, broken, twisted necks, what ever. If it's a legit guitar, just beat up, or abused, (and there's a lot of em), I leave the name on em and rebuild, repaint, what ever to make them playable again. Now the obvious fakes, I sand the name off, and relable them with our company name. If there is a head stock problem, I reinvent the shape so we don't run into a problem. This way my little band ecording studio has affordable instruments, and we have a few extra to sell that are affordable, yet playable. Is this crossing a line in your opinion? Love yur vids. me and all my guitar tech buddies concider your content to be about the best.
Modern big corporations lay people off on the tail of record profits. Yeah, don't buy counterfeit products, but it's not about the front line employees. Reward smaller companies making good stuff. There are plenty of sub 300 dollar guitars out there that are plenty good and can be made extremely good with a bit of work that don't say fender or gibson. Made in america means zero and hasn't for a long while.
Tbh, I'd play an Epiphone on stage before I'd play an actual Gibson. Especially the 2020 line, woo, those things are beautiful! But I think I'll stick with my Fenders and my Variax.
I couldn't care less about Gibson or Fender or their profit margins. I don't believe they're actually being hurt by cheap counterfeits. I'd say they're being much more impacted by fully legal and legit guitars that copy their style, in terms of competition for sales $. I just can't imagine why, with SO many affordable non-Gibson Les Paul-style guitars (or non-Fender Strat/Tele-style guitars) out there that are so good and so available, anyone would choose to buy a counterfeit piece of garbage.
Firstly, read my comment in the Patreon post. Second, you're infinitely better off buying lower end Fender/Squier or Gibson/Epiphone. Thirdly, I'd now rather make my own.
@@DylanTalksTone I disagree that you're "infinitely better off buying a lower end Fender / Squier or Ephipone." From my perspective, I see it like this: The real deal will hold it's value if taken care of, and even though Epiphone puts out much better gear than they used to, wouldn't you rather have a Gibson LP etc. or a Fender Strat / Tele? I would! I don't feel Squier makes quality but then again you can upgrade pups and machines but I personally would rather buy quality. It's an investment thing for me.
Man, I've seen some great guitarists playing Epiphones. No reason to be ashamed of them. I looked at a fake Rickenbacker 620, but decided against it. I'd love to have one of the cresting-wave designs. But I decided that I wouldn't be part of ripping off Rickenbacker.
To drive the build quality point home: there is a video where a guy shows how a chibson can be unplayable by using the neck of a gibson marauder. He unbolted the marauder neck from the body and held it against the chibson neck to compare fret placement. Much to nobody's surprise, the chibson's frets were so misplaced they were visible to the naked eye. So not only was the original owner stuck with a counterfeit, it was literally unplayable by virtue of the fact that the notes would never be in tune. Wish I could link to it, but I can't remember this video's title and haven't been able to find it again. But if someone knows which one I'm talking about can you post the link? Video was a good watch and I'd like to have the link handy in case someone legit asks why.
Fakes are a good way to keep companies on their toes, regarding quality of their instruments. By the way, who is paying Torres for the IP on acoustic shape guitars? IP's on simple shapes is just absurd.. I agree with brand protection, but with guitar shapes, pleasee
Counterfeiters main goal is to charge more for the cheap stuff they produce based on a brand/design they've put nothing into it. So the biggest victim are the end customers. Pretty sure 99% of $200 Epi LPs will sound better than a Chibb LP.
I made a t style electric guitar but the headstock is blank and I used for my own music is this alright??? I can't able to buy a t style electric guitar what's your thoughts about it???
People are ordering fake Gibsons because Gibson guitars are way too expensive. And all it takes to spend few hundred dollars on Chipson to have a decent guitar without costing thousands. That is quite obvious, so why ask that question ? Those that sell them as Gibsons should be punished . Agreed ?! End of the story. ! I make guitars out of pleasure making them. I've made a Telecaster and have put on it a Fender logo. Why? Because it is copy of the real thing , it looks like a Tely, it plays like a Tely, and the logo BELONGS THERE and it is the part of a designe !!! I do not sell them because they are for my own use. If i ever sell it (which I will NOT) I should be punished. Agreed? Yes ! End of story.
Well, if the brand or it’s affordable counterpart I wanted to buy from, made a guitar of the shape I want, with the amount of frets I want, in the price range I wanted, or allowed other brands to use the proper body shape instead of a slightly offset version in the price I want to pay, I wouldn’t feel the need to buy a knockoff and modify it so it doesn’t have the branding. I don’t think I should have to pay collector prices to get an instrument to play everyday, or settle for an offset that to me, looks ugly.
A custom built counterfeit or hand-made replica is my choice. You can keep the status for the aficionado's. I need a LP recipe body and neck only 25.5" scale. I have a large scale hand with long fingers. You can't generalize about all Asian LP's. Most hand made stuff out of Fujigen has been killing Gibson for decades. I remember the 74 NAMM Show. Everybody was drooling and lawsuits started flying.
Fender had no problem moving their labor to foreign countries to save money, id argue that if epiphones werent made overseas the counterfeits wouldnt be here as big as they are. I agree you shouldnt deal with those guitars tho.
Ah, now that explains my confusion when I was looking at a cheap Strat-like neck on Ebay recently and in every single shot, there was a kind of a flower sticker added to the photo in postprocess at the headstock. I was wondering what's up with that, but somehow didn't make the connection with fake branding (also because you see tons of unobscured but clearly fake stuff on Ebay anyway). Also, I don't really get this. I can't afford any of the big brands, so I play a more or less nameless Strat copy. So what? Who cares? It would never cross my mind to pretend like I'm actually playing a Fender. What does that have to do with anything? People can be so weird about these things... (But I did think about making a custom and I guess kinda Fender-ish headstock decal, something to make the guitar "my own" a bit more, as I did customize it a fair bit anyway.)
I recently saw the Chibson equivalent of a EVH Wolfgang in a shop. The guy was very up front it was a fake. It was awful. The construction was just simply bad. To me they really just proves "if it seems to good to be true it is"
I agree with a lot of what you said but you seem to skirt around the fact that these guitars often sound good and with a few mods can sound really good. The bottom line for me is how they play and sound. I have owned a number of Gibson Les Paul guitars over the years and currently own two very nice LP Standards (real keepers). They are top of the heap in my opinion but I have had a dog Gibson or two over the years that looked great and played or sounded less than I expect for such a high priced guitar. I appreciate your banning the political remarks in the comments. They serve no purpose in a discussion on guitar quality. If you want to see workers getting taken advantage of at low wages and poor working conditions you should come to New York City and visit the garment district just blocks from Time Square where "sweat shops" still openly exist. I'm pretty sure it happens in all major US cities but it has nothing to do with guitars. Thanks again. Good discussion.
Also, mine came with the narrow tunematic and to look at one might be fooled. Also the maple veneers these days look so good I'm not sure about the cap. cheers all
Funny how no one ever complains about the Max les pauls being sold and traded amongst the rich and elite who can afford 30k no problem to get a Gibson branded copy of a 59' burst. They say its as good as a real 59'. Isn't that just as illegal? Just as wrong? Or is it because the quality is there its ok? Gibson even knows about them and says nothing....but when people who for whatever reason want to get a "chibson" this is the response of many. Don't do it. Its wrong. Trademark enfringement! Oh but a max, ya thats fine....no problem. Seems hypocritical to say the least. Live and let live I say. Just my two cents.
Whenever I see one for sale on FB marketplace I always report the ad. Just because this seller is honest enough to declare it as a fake you know for a fact that at some point down the line some dipstick is going to try to pass it off as the real thing. Call me cynical...
If I was to sell a fake guitar as a fake it would not be allowed on Ebay, but for some reason if it is a fake coming out of China ebay allows it and they are selling them by the shit loads on ebay. The really bad shit is if somebody buys a bunch of fakes and then sell them as a real guitar at $2500.00 a pop that's so crooked. 20 years ago I would not even be able to tell a fake set neck Gibbo from the real deal.
I didn't get too far into this video,but why would someone drop $5000 on a name brand guitar when they could spend the same and get 15 guitar s that are 90 percent the quality?( knowing you have to learn how to set up your own guitar,and do a lot little filing here and there)Guitars usually don't hold up for decades these old guitars are overrated,I have them all,the pick ups go sonic,the necks succumb to the stress or lack of stress...these are just wood,glue,metal rods and electric components that age and need constant maintenance,neck adjustments,or like mine collect dust in guitar cases while the guitar in my hands for the last 15 years for the most part are pretty much disposable, easily replaceable instruments..that sound the part in this day and age of technical enhancement a fingertip away...
Because people that think those guitars are 90 percent the quality are either uninformed or lying to themselves. If they can’t admit either of those two things…. Betterhelp.com
I really want to know how legal copy of guitar works. Such as ESP Eclipse Yamaha Pacifica which mostly has the exact look of Les Paul and Strat. But ESP Star and Arrrow which looks a little bit different with Explorer and Flying V. How those license "protect" Fender/Gibson style guitar? I am looking forward to see the video about guitar license,
@Cyrus Freeman I know what you means, for me seems it looks like a gray area. Yes, there has some Japan company like Greco selling LP copy guitar. But currently there has many Guitar company selling LP like or Strat like guitar. Such as PRS got lawsuit by Gibson by saying PRS copy their guitar design. So what I want to know is how gibson/fender's patent works. P.S. I am big fan of Pacifica
It is okay to make copy with same body but not headstock for strat and tele and for Les Paul and sg you cannot copy the body 100% they usually change the horn.
"No politics". Didn't know politics could be a thing here (I mean the topic). I'm from Russia, so US politics is kind of not relevant to me anyway, but personally I would have like to hear something just out of curiosity, to try to understand US a little better, from a common folk perspective. But definitely there are plenty of channels and other sources where one can seek that. Moreover, probably people watch your videos not for politics, but for guitar suff and don't want to hear anything about politics on every channel.
Reason not to buy a chibson.. hmm.. because I'm all about authenticity and money is not an obstacle and I'm a loyal Gibson consuming product... But it's not me.. I have a les Paul copy called knight.. and it's made in Korea for $200 complete set with amp
Are you aware that there are people in the US and in England that make exact copies of Gibson Les Pauls and other brands and models. Don't just blame China.
@@BrianBrazilHarmonica are you aware of statistics? Just look at the overwhelming majority of such theft it all comes from the same place. Sure there may be a few bad apples in the US and England who do this too, every country has bad apples. BUT you are blind if you don't see where the overwhelming majority of counterfeits come from, whether regarding music or any other industry. Counterfeit theft is a deep seated part of the culture in china which is not the case in many other countries. Do not support chinese theft
Which raises an interesting question I've often wondered about. How is it there are cease+desist lawsuits flying around between guitar makers over shape trademark infringements, but Thomann have almost straight up cloned just about every brand known to guitarmankind seemingly without any comeback from the much bigger brands? (Gibson, Fender, PRS, Gretsch, Ovation, Suhr, Charvel, Solar etc). They're not even attempting to hide the origin. They're even a distributor/dealer for many of those same brands. It's intriguing how the majors seem to be turning a blind eye. (Not intended as a comment on HB quality/performance. More from the aspect of legality/licensing/ethics of blatantly cloning)
I feel like there are 2 markets : affordable and premium. People that are into nice feeling guitars will buy the original (fender, Gibson, prs, ...). So those bend won't be hurt by value oriented brands. Unless they start shitting on their customers like Gibson... The thing we can argue about is those big brand not making a decent option for people who can't afford the real deal, it's their own fault (PRS SE are more affordable but still 800€, they don't have anything for the beginners). Then we have Epiphone, we can argue that they're doing the right thing and that Harley Benton is ripping of Epiphone. But imo a market needs to be a competition else you get some crazy stuff like Intel did for years in the computer world (holding back performance and innovation while keeping the price as high as possible)... So to me it's a good thing to have competition on the low end of the market, it makes a good entry to the world of guitar for beginners. And shapes are to this day so printed in our mind of what a guitar is, that it's almost no longer the design of a brand but a type of guitar (single cut, double cut, strat, tele,...). All "original design" are highly influenced by Fender and Gibson. Today making a guitar that looks like a guitar without making it similar to a Fender or a Gibson is impossible. I think that the original design with the exact proportion belongs to those brands but that's about it.
@@valentinroux7448 I absolutely agree that competition is a good thing for the consumer, though with the caveat that competition has to be fair and legal. Counterfeiting a brand is clearly illegal. Cloning an original design and throwing a different brand on the headstock is a much greyer area legally and ethically. I'd disagree that it's impossible to design something new. A scan through the build videos for the ggbo competition has dozens of original designs (not just headstock revamps). New designs and significant deviation on single/double/explorer themes are all possible with the arc of a pencil line. Thomann made a conscious decision to make their clones look as close to the original as possible, no attempt to improve on the original (body contours on a Tele please!) or deviate from it's recognisable lines. No creativity or innovation - they are deliberate lookalikes. Their recent Ovation'esque acoustic is undeniably trying to look like an Ovation. If it was one or two models in a wider range of somewhat original designs I could smirk and say cheeky. But a very deliberate strategy to clone an entire lookalike range from every successful and recognisable shape created and established by others, and on an industrial scale! To be clear, they are not counterfeiting like chibson, that's clearly illegal, but the scale and multi-brand scope of very deliberate cloning does put me in an ethical/moral quandary even if the trademark and intellectual property position is borderline legal. And I hold my hand up - the closer their clones are to the original the more tempted I am to buy one. But that is surely why they do it. It's harder to establish your own brand/shape than it is to feed off someone else's success. But is that fair competition.
@@PaulCooksStuff Thomann owns the brand Harley Benton, their logo is on the headstock. They aren't attempting to sell an exact copy and use another companies logo brand. The head stocks, pickups, switches and pots are different so are the materials they use on the necks and bodies. They may resemble the originals but they aren't trying to sell them as the real thing.
@@PaulCooksStuff I think you have a good point on harley benton, they don't spend any money on inovation, only in mass producing. It's not really fair on other brand that spend / spent time and money on inovation. Especially with the point you underline, the closer the clone the more likely you are to buy it. I think we can agree that doing shape inspired guitar is ok like luthiers usualy do, you get a basic ST shape but then personalize it like in the GGBO and it looks nothing like a Fender Stratocaster. But for sure what thomann is doing isn't fair to other brand. The only point remaining is to what point should we allow clonish desings ? Should it be legal for other brands to have clonish design if the master brand doens't offer any affordable guitar or even if they have an affordable alternative ?
I love the headstock snobbefy nonsense because there are cheap and legal good guitars that are a bargain because it doesn't say Gibson or Fender on the headstock. If you play this right, sonetimes you can get cheap guitars that increase in value. Heritage are a perfect example. You used to be able get those very cheap second hand. They are excellent guitars but people have woken up to that now.
I have a Chinese gold top that came branded king. Is it a chibson if it doesn't say Gibson? I love the guitar it's a single p90. I saw the same guitar that Gibson put out for eight thousand. Mine was 200 dollars US. Now I've owned Gibson guitars and they are great!! But 7800 dollars better I'll never know.
@@raytorvalds3699 ok cool!! Well I wanted a chibson so on your word I wrote Gibson on the headstock with a silver paint pen!!! It's legit now!!! My man!! Good looking out!!
@@DylanTalksTone I sort of got the impresion that it was not the proucts you did not like but you had a problem with the business practices that are used to sell them. Am I correct
Out of a hundred Chibsons, 1 might come close, but they are never an exact "copy". With the introduction of guitars like the FireFly, (which is a damn great guitar) Chibsons are going the way of the dinosaurs. Also, the "prestige" of playing a way overpriced, poorly built Gibson is also fading, so the counterfeits will also fade. 🤣🎸
@@DylanTalksTone I'm not trying to be a wise guy, but I am truly seeking one. Those epiphone that are 300 to 400 are standards. That's not what I'm looking for. There are some basic black customs in the 400, but with tax and shipping you are looking at an extra 60 to 100 extra. I want a burst which they go into the upper 500 with out adding shipping /taxes. In az people sell used epiphone standards in 400 range on criglist. We all know that these Korean and chinese guitars will need an additional fret level. Is it really worth the extra 300 dollars?
There is also another thing to look at. I was one of the many who bought a Gibson from their custom shops and asked for certain things done to it, and never received them. Gibson took $5,000 (approx) from me and ran with it. When confronting them about 6 months later they were nasty and said “it sent you’re crazy” and I said “it did? What is my address then?” They cursed at me and hung up. They didn’t take my calls after politely asking them to look over my order. It was heart breaking. I gave up the guitar then a few years later I bought a Chibson, I asked for the same things to be done to it. I was told not to expect them to actually do it. 2.5 months later it arrived and everything I asked for it to be done to it was done. And it played amazingly. The only issue I had was a cheap nut on it and it was an easy fix. The reason many get Chibson come to find out was because they had ordered directly from Gibsons custom shop and never received their guitars. So there is a huge community that operates with Chibson makers instead because they actually send the guitars and do what the person asks in terms of modifications. They don’t take the money and run like Gibson has done to so many people. It took me 2 years to save up the $5,000 I lost from Gibson. A rabbi doesn’t get paid much kind you.
4 years ago I got 2 Chibsons customed to my spec and they are still going strong !
@@malcolmhardwick4258 true. Many see it sadly as a black and white issue. And they tend to speak in absolutes and 9 times out of 10 the absolutes are not the case. Mine has been wonderful I have no complaints. And I get the feeling that I got what I wanted when Gibson took my money without giving me the guitar I purchased so it is all good in my eyes
Thanx Rabbi... you inspired me to comment... Shalom
@@jonnybeck6723 shalom v’brocha achi
Ive got over 120 guitars in my collection and been playing for thirty years.
As a kid i lusted for the big name brands of my guitar gods.
Along the way ive bought expensive gibsons that havent played like shit, and ive bought cheap knock offs that with some tlc played better than the real deal.
As ive grown older, the name brand and ego stroke means so very little to me, so ill happily play copies and originals - i really dont care - i inly care that i get maximum gratification out of the instrument.
The bottom line is, you play and buy what you like.
I love my Chibson. I replaced the pots and Hardware and put in vintage 59 pickups. I'll put it up against any Les Paul
I love mine too, I got a 62 les paul custom SG copy with Bigsby. All I really had to do is level the high frets which I did myself, did the truss rod, flipped the bridge around, intonation and filed nut slots, now plays great. I play mine most of the time without amplification.
I own a Firefly guitar, which is basically a chibson, and it's phenomenal. No regrets whatsoever and the price was a steal (200 USD)
Technically, I believe "Chibson" refers to a fake Gibson guitar, meaning it actually says "Gibson" on the headstock. Fireflys are just budget guitars modelled after particular popular guitars like the LP and Srat. Even EVH's Frankenstrat looks like a Strat.
show me 1 single person in the entire world thats ever been charged with having a chibson.
Here in Japan there is no EBay, and Reverb is not really a thing either. We use Yahoo auctions and I have seen people list Chibsons on their and saying they are fakes. I've complained to yahoo, but they don't seem to give a shiitake mushroom.
Same with eBay. They care only about the number of people they can get to buy anything on their platform.
Reverb is much better.
they are telling the truth so its fine..what are you complaining about?
Got a Chibson SG deluxe..great platform. Traded a Vox Satchurator pedal and 2 sets of PRS se pickups. Would never try to pass off as real. Within 3 feet you can just tell. Great for the mod/fix experience tho. Full rebuild w no fear of damage 😎
We've created more laws than are possible to enforce. Sure Gibson's lawyers can prowl the NAMM shows looking for infringement, however, beyond a cease and desist letter, there's not much they can do since the courts are so jammed up. And as far as Chibsons, an easy solution is to stop the flow of counterfeit merchandise at the ports of entry. As if there are enough officials to do that.
International shipping is so slow these days, I doubt if they could do it.
I don't know...a guitar you can't legally buy, sell, or talk about? Almost makes it sound kinda cool.
There is no reason to buy a Chibson. Equally, there is no reason to buy an overpriced, lesser quality instrument from a company that has been around for as long as either Gibson or Fender, just because of their name. Yes, they were pioneers in the design and deployment of their iconic guitars. But the current leadership at both companies and their apparent quality standards do NOT match the prices they expect for their instruments. You can buy legal, name brand instruments from several companies that are equal to or better than the originals at either of those companies. I’ve owned and played SG’s, Stratocaster, Les Pauls, and the wooden lump called the Telecaster. I’ve also owned and hailed the ES-335, Soloist, S-500, and Fender’s original 1985 Master Series Esprit. I’ve played Ibanez and Schecter equivalents to Gibson and Fender that are far superior in workmanship, are proprietary to Ibanez and Schecter, and ARE SIGNIFICANTLY LESS EXPENSIVE THAN GIBSON OR FENDER. Importantly, they are not the only musical instrument companies that can boast those accomplishments. I’m not a professional guitarist but I have played guitar for the last 57 1/2 years; I know my way around a fretboard. My amplifiers predominately are Fenders. They are dependable, durable, quality instruments. I’ve owned inexpensive Frontman and high end Twin Reverbs. I know their limitations and I relish their strengths. Fender and Gibson have the right to protect their intelectual property. We, as the consumers, have the right to not pay F & G prices. We should boycott knockoffs and other fraudulent offerings. I don’t know that we can do much more than attempt to push those companies to the margins of the market but I’m doing my part. I hope everyone watching this video is willing to do the same.
One problem is that Gibson prices their guitars like it's the '60's and they are still one of 2 only guitar companies making instruments. Ain't like that any more! I played a HB "LesPaul" ($400 delivered) that makes a $5K Gibson look like the overpriced lump of wood it is...
I’ve seen several positive reviews of Harley Benton guitars. I’ve never played one, though.
About a year and a half ago I started learning how to become a luthier. I performed surgery on Squires, Epiphones, PRS SE's and Chibson's. I learned a ton about fret leveling, soldering and more thanks to a few Chinese Knockoff's I acquired. A few Chibson's I have worked on are scary close to the real deal.. some are absolute trash.. I am glad to have learned on these cheap models because now I am much more confident to do my own work on real Fenders, Gibson' ETC.. Great Video!
An absolutely incredible video on not just the topic of counterfeit instruments but ALL kinds of counterfeit products and, in a greater scale, the concept of intellectual property which is a concept lost to so many these days -- be it deceitful instrument manufacturers or people who think because X company no longer makes Y game that they have all right to create their own version of, it all applies.
Seriously, loved this. I'll be sharing it often. It's up to other people to learn, though -- you can lead a horse to water and all that...
Well said Dylan. Anyone who disagrees either bought one and needs to justify it or thinks that steeling and cheating is fine. If you are a manufacturer you should always try to make something original. PRS did so no reason why others should not be able too
So what are your thoughts on buying 1960 & 1970 Japanese copies that used their own brand but used other manufacturers specs
I totally agree with everything you said here. It is pretty bad here where I live now with the counterfeit guitars. I had never seen one with my own eyes but here I have seen several, some on stage, some in pawn shops with several $1000 price tag.
Dang it - now I have to spend all weekend sanding those Dylan logos off all my guitars! ;-) Good video Dylan.
Dylan, 5 reasons i baugth a Chibson
1 I can't aford a real one
2 my Chibson looks and plays great
3 it is not ilegal in México to buy or sell Chibsons
4 i can modify whitout worring about originality
5 intend to keep my Chibson
The trademark is everything.
I own a Harley Benton Tele, a TE90FLT, it was the chambered ash body and Canadian maple neck were what I wanted.
The bridge and tuners were junk so they were replaced with quality parts. The Rockwell pickups were fine for my use.
A guitar tech then sorted out the neck, the high E was wonky, and the frets were sorted out.
This is now not a bad guitar after the work has been done, more than perfect for my practice guitar.
But it is not a Fender.
Although the original Harley Benton decal was discarded, it was replaced with another: "HB Deluxe".
I got a Glenn Burton and as beautiful as it is it don't quite get it.
I feel the same way. For the price of a counterfeit you can buy a guitar that isn’t a lie as long as you don’t get embarrassed about the name/shape on the headstock. And it plays as good if not better then that fakes.
Good talk. I totally agreed with you. If you want a Fender or a Gibson and you don't have the money, buy a Squier or an Epiphone.
I just ordered a chibson. don't know or care what it says on the headstock yet. (If it says gibson I'll change that) but I ordered it strictly because its its the cheapest way to get a guitar already routed for p90s. I'm not sure if I'm going to like p90s and don't want to buy an expensive guitar. I'll buy expensive pickups and if I don't like it it will rot. If I do ill play it till it needs a fret job and take my electronics out and throw it away. I'm not a headstock snob I love my epiphones I love my squire I love my partscaster.
I'm w/ you mang
I agree with everything except the last point. Do the people making counterfeits (usually in developing countries) not have families to feed?
I used to work at Fender, and at G&L. If you think it is some huge faceless company, you should go a take a tour sometime. They are quite small companies, compared to other large companies, G&L is like three building in a strip business mall. Anyway, the fastest way to get a musician to understand what is really at steak here is to put it this way. You worked all your life at honing your craft and you finally get a hit song and a recording contact. So now you have more fans then you ever dreamed of, and they all love you and your music, so a band in a "non copy-write country" re-records your music and sells ti to your unsuspecting fans.
totally agree with you, yes buying, possessing or selling such stuff is wrong and harms the genuine brand seller.
While I appreciate your sentiment, my personal experience buying a Chibson has been a positive one - I bought it on eBay through one of the sellers like you showed, discussed what logo I wanted on the headstock (and yes, I chose "Gibson"), waited 3 months or so for the build and shipping/customs, and received a one-piece body (mahogany with maple veneer "cap"), one-piece neck Les Paul copy with a mother of pearl logo, ABR-style bridge, fret nibs, and a poly finish that actually looks like a real Les Paul even when you're pretty close to it
Granted I bought it knowing it would need a fret level and replacement EVERYTHING... which was the whole point! I wanted a guitar I could use to practice working on guitars and not worry too much in case I messed something up. I leveled, crowned, and polished the frets myself, replaced the fake Grovers with real ones, slotted the cheap plastic nut (I might replace it with a higher quality one later), replaced the pickups with Kent Armstrong Icon 57s, and added 550k push/pulls and orange drop caps with Jimmy Page wiring
I don't regret buying it one bit - it was a fun project, plays/sounds killer now, and with 21 tones, it's actually my most versatile guitar. I don't plan to ever get rid of it, but if I do, I will technically just be selling the pickups and the guitar will be a gift that comes with it. I also plan to Dremel "COPY" into the back of the headstock just so nobody ever tries to pass it off as real
@Nim Chimpsky it's unquestionably lower quality than a genuine Gibson. And as with the wood, you are right - they used a maple veneer rather than a cap and I'm sure the mahogany isn't as good as Gibson's
Here's a bit of a counterpoint to your arguments. Particularly your last. I would argue chibsons actually benefit Gibson and hardly affect the income or job security of Gibson employees. Simply put, those who buy a chibson because they can't afford a Gibson would not have the money to buy a Gibson anyway if chibsons did not exist. So in no way would disappearing chibsons in some magical way put more money into the employees hands or ensure a more secure future.
Now obviously Gibson has to play the part in pursuing piracy in the same way Microsoft needs to go after those who pirate their software. But broad use of Office ensures its format is the de facto standard for office files, and I'll argue that in a way chibsons do the same for Gibson.
When a player goes on stage with a chibson that player is actually doing advertisement for Gibson. I would find it very unlikely that the majority of the audience would notice the difference at a distance, under concert lighting and with a beer or two on them. This is very similar to installing a bootleg version of Office with all its malware, trojans and viruses. Sure, you get all the features of the real thing (90% of which you'll probably won't use anyway), but ultimately you ensure the file format remains a standard. If said player could not get a chibson because they were wished out of existence and can not get the money to buy a real Gibson then that player would be on stage with another brand name guitar. Does kinda explain why Gibson went after Dean first. Doesn't it?
So in a way buying chibsons helps perpetuate Gibson as an instrument standard which in turn makes wanting to buy a chibson an option which helps perpetuate Gibson and on and on it goes.
PS I have an Epiphone Tribute Plus in black cherry which is great and although not cheap it's way less than a Gibson and probably just as good. Plus Epiphone in a way is the real deal if you go back and learn its history.
Hy Dylan Michel from The Netherlands , first thing first ,the selling of “fake” instruments is not gone after because the most parts for Gibson ,fender or other instruments come from country’s like Indonesia ,Korea,China and India , and those factory’s can sometimes make the instrument even better than the original these days , by learning to put the parts together , and Gibson and other company’s have made most of someone else’s trademark or copyright headstock’s or shapes , and they know that too , so they say come after us because these big names have infringed such things too , for instance the Gibson headstock , or the Les Paul shape wasn’t their’s to begin whit , so is their V-shape or Their explorer-shape ,and Yes the chinese cheaper guitars have cheaper electronics and stuff , but mostly that stuff was made in the Epiphone-factory , whom is a Gibson brand , and yes you are right that we don’t want these kind of things going on , but the Big brands should be more fair too ,and they shouldn’t just have the prices so high because of the brand-name , by the way Give me an Epiphone any day above Gibson , period……
Good luck whit this conversation , and I like watching the channel , thanks for hours of education and such ,greetings Michel
I only buy epiphones as they are great guitars, specially the masterbilt line. As for quality, a good set up with good strings and grover machine heads go a long ways. 2 of my acoustics I took 320 & 600 grit sand paper to the back of the neck to eliminate that shiny layer for a smooth feel. Go on Craigslist and tell some college kid you'll give them $40 for the epiphone then go spend $150-200 on hot rodding it.....
You won't be disappointed!
Counterfeits make everything too suspect, and that's bad for everyone (especially someone who *doesn't* know they have a counterfeit and tries to sell it). Copies are fine (like Edwards's Gibson copies for the Japanese market) as long as the manufacturer slaps their own name on it.
The same rules apply in Sweden, the rest of Scandinavia and Finland.
Great video Dylan
I’m one of the guys who did decide to buy a Chibson. Wow was I surprised when I received it.
It’s a really nice guitar. I’m a luthier and of course gave it a complete setup. It has really nice low action, the intonation is spot on and it plays like butter and sounds great. I guess I just got lucky. But I understand everything you mentioned. Love your videos.
I was at a guitar shop pre-COVID and they were actively showing a Chibson Les Paul Standard. The owner told anyone looked at it that it was fake, but it was still totally sketchy. He needed to pull a 60 Cycle Hum Super Rich Steve and burn it. It kind of goes back to Napster and Limewire and pirating music and videos. People stake their lives on these products and we need to do our due diligence.
Liked for the 60CH SRSteve comment. 🤣
@@sassycat Don't get me wrong. I love his videos. But he always makes me smile when he pretends that "C" on a pedal stands for "church" rather than "chamber" or "cathedral". Can't help but like the dude. Except it's his fault I now "need" a Surfybear reverb.
@@whssy - buy the SurfyBear with the money you saved buying your other affordaboard pedals. You really can't skimp on a quality reverb.
Thank you for this great vid, Dylan.
It feels like you speak from my heart.
Love from 🇨🇭
Well if you can't sell it, and probably can't or wouldn't want to play it, why buy it or own it? Just to look at it? How could you ever fool yourself into believing it's real if you're the one who bought it? And if it's just to fool your friends, that makes no sense either.
3:07 you mentioned licensed instruments, I'm scanning through your videos seeing if I can spot a video on licensing since this one, did you make an episode on it or discuss it in a live Q&A? I'd be interested to hear about your personal experience with licensing agreeements, or what you generally know about. Like with Fender shapes. My understanding was that Fender failed to enforce their guitar shapes (at least some, like the Strat and Tele) as design trademarks, but successfully enforced their design trademarks on the headstocks and so if you're building guitars with those headstock shapes, you need to come to a licensing agreement, correct? What do licensing agreements like this entail? I know there are bigger companies who were manufacturing guitars with Fender designs prior to the 90s who managed to secure licensing agreements following the lawsuits, eg Warmoth, but what if you're an individual luthier working out of your home workshop, who's putting out a very low volume of guitars each year? I don't know what a licensing agreement between Fender and such a luthier would entail, but I had assumed it would be so prohibitively expensive and/or demanding, as to make it not worth pursuing simply for the headstock design.
The buying counterfeit hurts people part. I don't think anyone bought the $230 chibson was going to buy the $3000 gibson If chibson didn't exist. So it would actually hurt lower end companies more then gibson. Also times are not tough at all in the industry. Record breaking year. Most everything is out of stock everywhere even if youre willing to buy sight unseen you have to pre order.. My last epiphone I bought just came the other day I ordered it almost 5 months ago to the day.
I just started this whole discussion on facebook a few days ago. A lot of the guys building their own guitars are putting somebody else's logo on the headstock. I said I don't get it. I don't care who's name is on my headstock. I care about the quality of the instrument I'm playing.
I think almost anyone would agree if someone started selling 1964 ford mustang's that ford should be able to stop them and collect damages for trademark infringement. I see no difference
Well said. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. You nailed it. The last guitar I bought was a genuine guitar build a genuine company. I obviously paid more but every time I look at my beautiful guitar, l see people’s behind it and that’s important for me.
Yeah. I see Chinese girls (got no problem with that, though)
Lol I constantly see people brag about their Chibsons in my country. What’s more tragic is that some of them even slam Epiphone owners…
OK a philosophical, for the sake of argument question.
I buy a Fender Strat. The real deal. Maybe $1000.
When does it become NON-authentic?
Does changing out the pickups to Dylan's after-market make it non-authentic.
OK let's take this to the extreme.
We replace/upgrade everything on the Strat except for the wood. Even change out the frets.
We even make the body cuts to our liking and refinish the body. The neck is as purchased except we replaced the frets.
Is it still authentic? The Neck still has the original as purchased Headstock with decal, serial #, etc. The body markings match the serial number.
What makes the sale of this guitar legal or not?
Most of us wouldn't do this but Eddie Van Halen did.
I also find when I build a copy, they cost more than if I go out and just buy one.
But learning the trade, I do not want to ruin a tradable guitar.
Maybe my son will have to part out the guitar to get some value back.
But I normally use high end Pickups and parts on my builds.
I usually do my own thing on head stocks but I do like to some what copy the body shapes.
Sometimes I use something similiar to a brand head stock.
Where do I cross the line of being illegal to sell. I don't plan to sell anything I built, but my son might wish to after I depart this world.
Sometimes I find a cheap China kit and only use the wood. I practice my setup skills and do things I wouldn't wish to do to a brand name.
So I ask where do I cross that line?
Again this is a question for legal and philosophical debate. :-)
I don’t like them because they get into the wild and some poor kid ends up getting screwed over buying “a Gibson”
Imagine a band were playing knocked-off, high-end gear onstage and someone in the audience was thinking "thank god they have decent gear or I wouldn't like them"!
Greetings from UK Dylan - believe me there's tons of knocked-off gear available over here...
I think most people who care about the logo would be guitarists anyway. Normal people don't look at that kind of stuff. Most of them couldn't tell a Telecaster from a Les Paul really.
And if you ARE a guitarist, it shouldn't matter to you if it says Epiphone on the headstock, because you know they sound just as good as the Gibson once you tweak the setup and throw new pickups on it.
Maybe we should ask Slash why he played a fake.
I wish I could poast photos of my Greco GE450 I got for less than $400! Someone had already swapped out the bridge for an ABS and then I swapped the pups for Gibson 57's - WOW. I took it to a guitar show in Nashville and everyone was drooling - offered double my cost, etc... There are deals to be had WITHOUT going over to the darkside. My buddy a guitar tech has three Chibsons in his repairshop as examples of why no one should be buying these. They are sub-par at best and are like steaming off a Squire logo decal and putting on a Fender one instead, just bad taste in my opinion.
Poast?
@Nim Chimpsky No, I think he meant, 'post' but didn't know how to spell it! I mean, WHY would you ROAST a photo?
@Nim Chimpsky I know! Cheers!
My '78 Greco Custom makes ANY Gibson look bad...
@@cool555breeze They made GOOD'UNS back then!
I agree with you completely. To play devil’s advocate, at this point we all know Slash played a Les Paul copy. What’s the difference between Slash playing a fake or some kid who just wants to look cool.
My brother bought them Chibson and yes, they are just as low quality as it gets. Lots and lots of defects and totally doesn't live up to what the originals should be. But to be fair, this was when Gibson was building bad guitars. So either have this cheap guitar that sucks for $150 or this expensive guitar that sucks for $1k.
Great video. Your character shows man. Bravo
It's a pretty stick with some steel strings on it. It don't matter to me much whose name is on the headstock it's what you can do with it that counts.
Reason #6 - customs will seize it, and Gibsons lawyers will send you a really “nice” letter. Then you won’t have a guitar or the money you spent on it! Just happened to me, and mine was not supposed to have Gibson or Les Paul on it anywhere, and it still got seized!
What website did you order from if you don't mind sharing.
@@Ken-yg4um I got it from eBay, thinking it would be ok to order because it would be purchase protected. I was wrong.
@@josephpinkle2636 that sucks me being a Gibson player I was curious about these guitars I did order one for a mod project from a reputable Facebook group with exceptional reviews.
This may be a different question for a different time, BUT I buy any thing out of the pawn shops. Beat up, broken, twisted necks, what ever. If it's a legit guitar, just beat up, or abused, (and there's a lot of em), I leave the name on em and rebuild, repaint, what ever to make them playable again. Now the obvious fakes, I sand the name off, and relable them with our company name. If there is a head stock problem, I reinvent the shape so we don't run into a problem. This way my little band
ecording studio has affordable instruments, and we have a few extra to sell that are affordable, yet playable. Is this crossing a line in your opinion? Love yur vids. me and all my guitar tech buddies concider your content to be about the best.
Modern big corporations lay people off on the tail of record profits.
Yeah, don't buy counterfeit products, but it's not about the front line employees. Reward smaller companies making good stuff. There are plenty of sub 300 dollar guitars out there that are plenty good and can be made extremely good with a bit of work that don't say fender or gibson. Made in america means zero and hasn't for a long while.
Well done, and very informative, and even learned a few thing I have not even thought about before.
Tbh, I'd play an Epiphone on stage before I'd play an actual Gibson. Especially the 2020 line, woo, those things are beautiful! But I think I'll stick with my Fenders and my Variax.
I couldn't care less about Gibson or Fender or their profit margins. I don't believe they're actually being hurt by cheap counterfeits. I'd say they're being much more impacted by fully legal and legit guitars that copy their style, in terms of competition for sales $.
I just can't imagine why, with SO many affordable non-Gibson Les Paul-style guitars (or non-Fender Strat/Tele-style guitars) out there that are so good and so available, anyone would choose to buy a counterfeit piece of garbage.
Firstly, read my comment in the Patreon post. Second, you're infinitely better off buying lower end Fender/Squier or Gibson/Epiphone. Thirdly, I'd now rather make my own.
I could not disagree more!
Making your own guitar is great!
Disagree with buying and epiphone or making your own?
@@DylanTalksTone I disagree that you're "infinitely better off buying a lower end Fender / Squier or Ephipone." From my perspective, I see it like this: The real deal will hold it's value if taken care of, and even though Epiphone puts out much better gear than they used to, wouldn't you rather have a Gibson LP etc. or a Fender Strat / Tele? I would! I don't feel Squier makes quality but then again you can upgrade pups and machines but I personally would rather buy quality. It's an investment thing for me.
@@topdog6742 uh... we are talking about Chinese counterfeit guitars
People posting counterfeits on kijiji (Canadian craigslists) is a big pet peeve on mine, they are the only thing I ever bother to report.
A video of the licensed instruments would be awesome.
Man, I've seen some great guitarists playing Epiphones. No reason to be ashamed of them.
I looked at a fake Rickenbacker 620, but decided against it. I'd love to have one of the cresting-wave designs. But I decided that I wouldn't be part of ripping off Rickenbacker.
I’ve never had any desire for a counterfeit anything, but I’d be open to get an affordable les paul Jr style with a jazz master shaped body made.
To drive the build quality point home: there is a video where a guy shows how a chibson can be unplayable by using the neck of a gibson marauder. He unbolted the marauder neck from the body and held it against the chibson neck to compare fret placement. Much to nobody's surprise, the chibson's frets were so misplaced they were visible to the naked eye. So not only was the original owner stuck with a counterfeit, it was literally unplayable by virtue of the fact that the notes would never be in tune.
Wish I could link to it, but I can't remember this video's title and haven't been able to find it again. But if someone knows which one I'm talking about can you post the link? Video was a good watch and I'd like to have the link handy in case someone legit asks why.
Fakes are a good way to keep companies on their toes, regarding quality of their instruments. By the way, who is paying Torres for the IP on acoustic shape guitars? IP's on simple shapes is just absurd.. I agree with brand protection, but with guitar shapes, pleasee
Counterfeiters main goal is to charge more for the cheap stuff they produce based on a brand/design they've put nothing into it. So the biggest victim are the end customers. Pretty sure 99% of $200 Epi LPs will sound better than a Chibb LP.
Damn.sounds like somebody bought a counterfeit and thought it was real 🤣😂
I made a t style electric guitar but the headstock is blank and I used for my own music is this alright??? I can't able to buy a t style electric guitar what's your thoughts about it???
It's only counterfit if you copy the brand name and headstock, just don't put fender on the head
@@Quirktart thanks much appreciated
Tele shapes are the ones luthiers learn with so no blame (IMHO)
People are ordering fake Gibsons because Gibson guitars are way too expensive. And all it takes to spend few hundred
dollars on Chipson to have a decent guitar without costing thousands. That is quite obvious, so why ask that question ? Those that sell them as Gibsons should be punished . Agreed ?! End of the story. !
I make guitars out of pleasure making them. I've made a Telecaster and have put on it a Fender logo. Why? Because it is copy of the real thing , it looks like a Tely, it plays like a Tely, and the logo BELONGS THERE and it is the part of a designe !!! I do not sell them because they are for my own use. If i ever sell it (which I will NOT) I should be punished. Agreed? Yes ! End of story.
Well, if the brand or it’s affordable counterpart I wanted to buy from, made a guitar of the shape I want, with the amount of frets I want, in the price range I wanted, or allowed other brands to use the proper body shape instead of a slightly offset version in the price I want to pay, I wouldn’t feel the need to buy a knockoff and modify it so it doesn’t have the branding. I don’t think I should have to pay collector prices to get an instrument to play everyday, or settle for an offset that to me, looks ugly.
A custom built counterfeit or hand-made replica is my choice. You can keep the status for the aficionado's. I need a LP recipe body and neck only 25.5" scale. I have a large scale hand with long fingers. You can't generalize about all Asian LP's. Most hand made stuff out of Fujigen has been killing Gibson for decades. I remember the 74 NAMM Show. Everybody was drooling and lawsuits started flying.
Fender had no problem moving their labor to foreign countries to save money, id argue that if epiphones werent made overseas the counterfeits wouldnt be here as big as they are. I agree you shouldnt deal with those guitars tho.
Ah, now that explains my confusion when I was looking at a cheap Strat-like neck on Ebay recently and in every single shot, there was a kind of a flower sticker added to the photo in postprocess at the headstock. I was wondering what's up with that, but somehow didn't make the connection with fake branding (also because you see tons of unobscured but clearly fake stuff on Ebay anyway).
Also, I don't really get this. I can't afford any of the big brands, so I play a more or less nameless Strat copy. So what? Who cares? It would never cross my mind to pretend like I'm actually playing a Fender. What does that have to do with anything? People can be so weird about these things... (But I did think about making a custom and I guess kinda Fender-ish headstock decal, something to make the guitar "my own" a bit more, as I did customize it a fair bit anyway.)
Love what you do , keep rockin....
Chibson or Chender, tough choice! LOL!
I don't think gibson doesn't care about chibson because they really don't compare
I recently saw the Chibson equivalent of a EVH Wolfgang in a shop. The guy was very up front it was a fake. It was awful. The construction was just simply bad.
To me they really just proves "if it seems to good to be true it is"
I agree with a lot of what you said but you seem to skirt around the fact that these guitars often sound good and with a few mods can sound really good. The bottom line for me is how they play and sound. I have owned a number of Gibson Les Paul guitars over the years and currently own two very nice LP Standards (real keepers). They are top of the heap in my opinion but I have had a dog Gibson or two over the years that looked great and played or sounded less than I expect for such a high priced guitar. I appreciate your banning the political remarks in the comments. They serve no purpose in a discussion on guitar quality. If you want to see workers getting taken advantage of at low wages and poor working conditions you should come to New York City and visit the garment district just blocks from Time Square where "sweat shops" still openly exist. I'm pretty sure it happens in all major US cities but it has nothing to do with guitars. Thanks again. Good discussion.
totalllly agree.
Thank you for inspiring me to buy a Chibson 😉
Also, mine came with the narrow tunematic and to look at one might be fooled.
Also the maple veneers these days look so good I'm not sure about the cap.
cheers all
Dylan please explain the process
Well stated.
Funny how no one ever complains about the Max les pauls being sold and traded amongst the rich and elite who can afford 30k no problem to get a Gibson branded copy of a 59' burst. They say its as good as a real 59'. Isn't that just as illegal? Just as wrong? Or is it because the quality is there its ok? Gibson even knows about them and says nothing....but when people who for whatever reason want to get a "chibson" this is the response of many. Don't do it. Its wrong. Trademark enfringement! Oh but a max, ya thats fine....no problem. Seems hypocritical to say the least. Live and let live I say. Just my two cents.
Whenever I see one for sale on FB marketplace I always report the ad. Just because this seller is honest enough to declare it as a fake you know for a fact that at some point down the line some dipstick is going to try to pass it off as the real thing. Call me cynical...
If I was to sell a fake guitar as a fake it would not be allowed on Ebay, but for some reason if it is a fake coming out of China ebay allows it and they are selling them by the shit loads on ebay. The really bad shit is if somebody buys a bunch of fakes and then sell them as a real guitar at $2500.00 a pop that's so crooked. 20 years ago I would not even be able to tell a fake set neck Gibbo from the real deal.
I didn't get too far into this video,but why would someone drop $5000 on a name brand guitar when they could spend the same and get 15 guitar s that are 90 percent the quality?( knowing you have to learn how to set up your own guitar,and do a lot little filing here and there)Guitars usually don't hold up for decades these old guitars are overrated,I have them all,the pick ups go sonic,the necks succumb to the stress or lack of stress...these are just wood,glue,metal rods and electric components that age and need constant maintenance,neck adjustments,or like mine collect dust in guitar cases while the guitar in my hands for the last 15 years for the most part are pretty much disposable, easily replaceable instruments..that sound the part in this day and age of technical enhancement a fingertip away...
Because people that think those guitars are 90 percent the quality are either uninformed or lying to themselves. If they can’t admit either of those two things…. Betterhelp.com
I really want to know how legal copy of guitar works. Such as ESP Eclipse Yamaha Pacifica which mostly has the exact look of Les Paul and Strat. But ESP Star and Arrrow which looks a little bit different with Explorer and Flying V. How those license "protect" Fender/Gibson style guitar?
I am looking forward to see the video about guitar license,
@Cyrus Freeman I know what you means, for me seems it looks like a gray area. Yes, there has some Japan company like Greco selling LP copy guitar. But currently there has many Guitar company selling LP like or Strat like guitar. Such as PRS got lawsuit by Gibson by saying PRS copy their guitar design. So what I want to know is how gibson/fender's patent works.
P.S. I am big fan of Pacifica
It is okay to make copy with same body but not headstock for strat and tele and for Les Paul and sg you cannot copy the body 100% they usually change the horn.
What about "clone" pedals? Klon for example.
"No politics". Didn't know politics could be a thing here (I mean the topic). I'm from Russia, so US politics is kind of not relevant to me anyway, but personally I would have like to hear something just out of curiosity, to try to understand US a little better, from a common folk perspective. But definitely there are plenty of channels and other sources where one can seek that. Moreover, probably people watch your videos not for politics, but for guitar suff and don't want to hear anything about politics on every channel.
Reason not to buy a chibson.. hmm.. because I'm all about authenticity and money is not an obstacle and I'm a loyal Gibson consuming product... But it's not me.. I have a les Paul copy called knight.. and it's made in Korea for $200 complete set with amp
We only need one reason: STEALING IS WRONG. do NOT support chinese theft.
Awesome Video, thankyou for standing up for morals.
Are you aware that there are people in the US and in England that make exact copies of Gibson Les Pauls and other brands and models. Don't just blame China.
@@BrianBrazilHarmonica are you aware of statistics? Just look at the overwhelming majority of such theft it all comes from the same place. Sure there may be a few bad apples in the US and England who do this too, every country has bad apples. BUT you are blind if you don't see where the overwhelming majority of counterfeits come from, whether regarding music or any other industry. Counterfeit theft is a deep seated part of the culture in china which is not the case in many other countries. Do not support chinese theft
Also for the same price you can buy an Harley Benton that plays like a dream and looks beautiful
Which raises an interesting question I've often wondered about.
How is it there are cease+desist lawsuits flying around between guitar makers over shape trademark infringements, but Thomann have almost straight up cloned just about every brand known to guitarmankind seemingly without any comeback from the much bigger brands? (Gibson, Fender, PRS, Gretsch, Ovation, Suhr, Charvel, Solar etc). They're not even attempting to hide the origin. They're even a distributor/dealer for many of those same brands. It's intriguing how the majors seem to be turning a blind eye.
(Not intended as a comment on HB quality/performance. More from the aspect of legality/licensing/ethics of blatantly cloning)
I feel like there are 2 markets : affordable and premium.
People that are into nice feeling guitars will buy the original (fender, Gibson, prs, ...). So those bend won't be hurt by value oriented brands. Unless they start shitting on their customers like Gibson...
The thing we can argue about is those big brand not making a decent option for people who can't afford the real deal, it's their own fault (PRS SE are more affordable but still 800€, they don't have anything for the beginners). Then we have Epiphone, we can argue that they're doing the right thing and that Harley Benton is ripping of Epiphone. But imo a market needs to be a competition else you get some crazy stuff like Intel did for years in the computer world (holding back performance and innovation while keeping the price as high as possible)... So to me it's a good thing to have competition on the low end of the market, it makes a good entry to the world of guitar for beginners.
And shapes are to this day so printed in our mind of what a guitar is, that it's almost no longer the design of a brand but a type of guitar (single cut, double cut, strat, tele,...). All "original design" are highly influenced by Fender and Gibson. Today making a guitar that looks like a guitar without making it similar to a Fender or a Gibson is impossible. I think that the original design with the exact proportion belongs to those brands but that's about it.
@@valentinroux7448 I absolutely agree that competition is a good thing for the consumer, though with the caveat that competition has to be fair and legal. Counterfeiting a brand is clearly illegal. Cloning an original design and throwing a different brand on the headstock is a much greyer area legally and ethically.
I'd disagree that it's impossible to design something new. A scan through the build videos for the ggbo competition has dozens of original designs (not just headstock revamps). New designs and significant deviation on single/double/explorer themes are all possible with the arc of a pencil line. Thomann made a conscious decision to make their clones look as close to the original as possible, no attempt to improve on the original (body contours on a Tele please!) or deviate from it's recognisable lines. No creativity or innovation - they are deliberate lookalikes. Their recent Ovation'esque acoustic is undeniably trying to look like an Ovation. If it was one or two models in a wider range of somewhat original designs I could smirk and say cheeky. But a very deliberate strategy to clone an entire lookalike range from every successful and recognisable shape created and established by others, and on an industrial scale!
To be clear, they are not counterfeiting like chibson, that's clearly illegal, but the scale and multi-brand scope of very deliberate cloning does put me in an ethical/moral quandary even if the trademark and intellectual property position is borderline legal.
And I hold my hand up - the closer their clones are to the original the more tempted I am to buy one. But that is surely why they do it. It's harder to establish your own brand/shape than it is to feed off someone else's success. But is that fair competition.
@@PaulCooksStuff Thomann owns the brand Harley Benton, their logo is on the headstock. They aren't attempting to sell an exact copy and use another companies logo brand. The head stocks, pickups, switches and pots are different so are the materials they use on the necks and bodies. They may resemble the originals but they aren't trying to sell them as the real thing.
@@PaulCooksStuff I think you have a good point on harley benton, they don't spend any money on inovation, only in mass producing. It's not really fair on other brand that spend / spent time and money on inovation. Especially with the point you underline, the closer the clone the more likely you are to buy it.
I think we can agree that doing shape inspired guitar is ok like luthiers usualy do, you get a basic ST shape but then personalize it like in the GGBO and it looks nothing like a Fender Stratocaster. But for sure what thomann is doing isn't fair to other brand.
The only point remaining is to what point should we allow clonish desings ? Should it be legal for other brands to have clonish design if the master brand doens't offer any affordable guitar or even if they have an affordable alternative ?
I love the headstock snobbefy nonsense because there are cheap and legal good guitars that are a bargain because it doesn't say Gibson or Fender on the headstock. If you play this right, sonetimes you can get cheap guitars that increase in value. Heritage are a perfect example. You used to be able get those very cheap second hand. They are excellent guitars but people have woken up to that now.
I have a Chinese gold top that came branded king. Is it a chibson if it doesn't say Gibson? I love the guitar it's a single p90. I saw the same guitar that Gibson put out for eight thousand. Mine was 200 dollars US. Now I've owned Gibson guitars and they are great!! But 7800 dollars better I'll never know.
If it's branded King it's not a Chibson.
@@raytorvalds3699 ok cool!! Well I wanted a chibson so on your word I wrote Gibson on the headstock with a silver paint pen!!! It's legit now!!! My man!! Good looking out!!
@@robertsapin5074 I bet it looks great...
I never knew about this.
Type in $4,500 chibson part one and two
Gibson should sue Chibson just like what they did to Ibanez, PRS,etc...or did they? Hmm...
Dylan could you explain to me why I should not buy a Harley Benton?
Why would I do that… you are free to buy what you want obviously
@@DylanTalksTone maybe i wrong but on one video you alluded to it being not a good idea to buy HB guitars but you stopped short of giving any reasons
I’m not a fan, but other people think they are amazing
@@DylanTalksTone I sort of got the impresion that it was not the proucts you did not like but you had a problem with the business practices that are used to sell them. Am I correct
Buy a used Tokai if you can't afford a Gibson, it's a legit brand and plays like the real thing
Greco's and Burny's are some fantastic instruments.
There are some beautiful Tokai 335's out there
Out of a hundred Chibsons, 1 might come close, but they are never an exact "copy". With the introduction of guitars like the FireFly, (which is a damn great guitar) Chibsons are going the way of the dinosaurs. Also, the "prestige" of playing a way overpriced, poorly built Gibson is also fading, so the counterfeits will also fade. 🤣🎸
A Gibson Les Paul guitar Slash originaly became famous for, was a fake Gibson, and noone bat an eyelid !
Fake people buy Fake guitars, watches, etc, etc.
Pretty much
What about the poor people that work at walmart that could never afford a custom?
That’s what epiphone is for.
@@DylanTalksTone epiphone customs are almost $700!!! That's too much for most of us.
Used ones can be had for 3-400 dollars all day long.
@@DylanTalksTone I'm not trying to be a wise guy, but I am truly seeking one. Those epiphone that are 300 to 400 are standards. That's not what I'm looking for. There are some basic black customs in the 400, but with tax and shipping you are looking at an extra 60 to 100 extra. I want a burst which they go into the upper 500 with out adding shipping /taxes. In az people sell used epiphone standards in 400 range on criglist. We all know that these Korean and chinese guitars will need an additional fret level. Is it really worth the extra 300 dollars?