Greetings pedants! Yes, vegetable is not a botanical classification. As for fonts, you can read the bottom of this page for a clear written argument (not mine) - practicaltypography.com/font-basics.html or a nuanced and technical discussion among type experts here about the terms in a professional context web.archive.org/web/20170731194203/fontfeed.com/archives/font-or-typeface/
Well actually, I think you'll find that what you've defined is actually called a "fount", not a "font"... 😁😁😁 (Just to join it the pointless pedantry! (or should that be "0pt pedantry"...?))
Just a thought: If you didn't want the topic to be negative, then maybe you could have titled the video something like "The Difference Between a Typeface and a Font" and not mentioned the comments, while still having a discussion, if you'd like, on pedantry. By the way, your to-the-point outro was unexpected but welcome. I like your editing style.
"Well, actually, dear, I sent you an organization of letters and punctuation in a format defined as a letter. Seems my own grandchild forgot that words can have multiple independent meanings. Love, grandma"
"weaponized trivia" is such a great term, next time someone does that to me I'm gonna say "uuuhmm akshually you are not being helpful, you are just weaponizing trivia 🤓"
"An underrated life skill, is learning when to shut the F up" Amen. Best lesson I ever learned. Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt.
Discernment is huge. It makes things better for all involved. Because then you can start to find when that “well actually” *will* be received positively. It opens up so many interesting conversations with the right people, and prevents wasted time with the wrong people.
Not related to this video, but related to the comment: it can also be very good to know when to open your mouth. Looking like a fool is sometimes a very small risk compared to actually being one (by remaining ignorant of a thing you're afraid of asking, or by choosing not to speak up for yourself or others). It can be very good to summon that courage.
I also feel like nowadays, in part due to web, a lot of people might make a distinction between a font and a font family, with the word "typeface" being mostly lost to history
This is how it was taught to me so sorry if I’m wrong but my typography teacher said it was Steve jobs who liked the word font for aethstetic reasons, so he added it to MacWrite for the macintosh in 1984 instead of the word typeface. Microsoft Word (then known as Multi-tool Word) did come out before this on Xenix and Dos, but neither at the time had the ability to change the look of the letters, as that wasn’t something word did till 1985
To be clear: Font IS the correct term for the dialog box and the file format. For the former, you are never simply selecting a typeface, you are also selecting the size, the weight, and certain other properties. And for the files themselves, while there's no distinction between font sizes anymore, weights have to be seperated out into different files. There is technically no point in that process where "Typeface" applies over "Font"
@@watchm4kerTrue, but the font drop-down menu selects a typeface family, and the other font settings like size and weight are in other menus. The distinction is not really worth making, however.
yea I don't know what it is exactly, but internet shaquille also started switching over to that format and it just feels so much better, plus it's more "platform agnostic"
1:22 I used to do this too. I think it's a form of insecurity. If you aren't secure in your own knowledge you have to put it out there for others to see. Or if you feel you have nothing else to offer (also insecure) then you have to share what you can offer in order to feel valuable. Once I began to develop security/confidence in general. I found it far less important to do this. Unless someone is REALLY off base, then I'll still (hopefully gently) correct them.
I also used to do this, though I think the cause was different in my case. Insecurity, perhaps, but not insecurity in my knowledge. If I was insecure about that, putting it out there would be the last thing I'd want to do. Instead, it was the *only* source of security for me. Language being consistent and sensible was a proxy for the world being consistent and sensible, so pedantry became an anchor. I corrected people not to look or feel superior, but because it caused me genuine distress to think they were operating in a mistaken version of reality. I think what helped me was shifting my mindset about language, rather than shifting how I felt about people making mistakes. Things may physically exist, but categories of things are almost always arbitrary human abstractions, and thus so are words, and so categories and the language about them can change over time.
A ton of veggies are fruits in the scientific sense, it's interesting that tomato gets called out. Nobody is correcting people about how corn is actually a fruit.
I bet every field has its own best "well actually" hairsplitting. Well actually, mass and weight are different. Well actually simmer and stew are different...
Well actually the difference between mass and weight is quite significative in physics. While in every day life this is not important I think that even a UA-cam video doing physics vulgarisation should not confuse those two terms. Those are words with very precise definitions in a very technical domain. Other examples are different: even designers do not need to care about the difference between font and typeface, or developers about the difference between Linux and GNU/Linux.
@@sacha9593 Well actually, yes, if a physics video gets it wrong that's one thing, but I don't expect to ever see some package or other item weight in kg*m/s^2 😀
@@cameron7374 This is my favorite one because after I read that article I excised every single piece of GNU software from my system and replaced it with BSD equivalents so that it would be completely inaccurate to call my system GNU/Linux.
2:35 My grandfather worked as a setter in his youth. Already back then the technology was being phased out, and he went on to become a journalist. He ended working in television, back when it still had some prestige to it. He was a great man, and whenever I hear stories about traditional setting in printing presses, I always think of him.
I deeply appreciate that this channel is mostly you discussing things you like. At the same time, I also deeply appreciate this video and your sentiment behind it. Language evolves, and we can be a part of it evolving in a way that improves understanding and unites our collective knowledge, or we can be a part of it evolving in a way that divides us and makes it harder to talk to each other. Peace and love
I fight fire with fire. There was one notorious 'corrector' on typeface vs font, I made a note on the exact wording used to describe the importance of getting things right. Then I waited for a semester for the 'corrector' to use "uppercase" to describe a capital glyph in a script, I well actuallyed that scripts aren't types so have no association with cases and well actually the correct terms are "minuscule" and "majuscule" then gave the same boring spiel on correctness.
1:27 "An underrated life skill, in my opinion, is knowing when to shut the fuck up, because all you're doing is alienating people" - words of wisdom! I learned that after many years of grammar-policing. It still bugs me, but language is a living thing and some things are harder to accept than others (I'm lookin' at you, "alright")
Even though your video focuses on fonts, typeface and design, your message can certainly be applied to many areas and subjects around the internet these days. Seems everyone wants to sound smart and continue to correct people on irrelevant semantics. Thank you for this video, really well said.
No. UI is the attempt and UX the result. UX also encompases non-UI elements, like cutscenes, difficulty, frame rates on minimum hardware... UX varies by user; UI is set by the devs.
The perfect response to someone correcting a word you used just to be petty is: "Well you knew what I meant right? Cause otherwise how did you correct me?" Gets em every time.
3:40 was obvious and mattered! If someone said "move that font" that's a pain in the butt, but doable. "Move that type face" and oh boy... it's a whole day! haha
I never get why people are so hung up on tomatoes being fruits- so many vegetables are botanically fruit (cucumber, peppers, aubergine, pumpkins, peas etc, then there's the nuts- peanuts, walnut, hazelnut . . . all technically fruit) but it's only the tomato that people seem compelled to 'well actually' about
@@matesafranka6110 exactly. Vegetable is not a scientific term. It's a culinary one. Tons and tons and tons of vegetables are fruits. It's not a biological category, it's a food category. Vegetables can be fruits, they can be roots, they can be types of grass, there's all sorts of things that fit into the culinary category called "vegetables". So when people make their stupid repetitive jokes like "hurr derr intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit, wisdom is knowing to not use tomatoes in a fruit salad" it just misses the point completely. They're trying to sound smart by using a joke that a million other people have already made a million times, they kind of reveal how little they actually know.
As someone who knows next to nothing about your craft, I wholeheartedly thank you for not gatekeeping and for providing so much lovely insight :) As a fellow (although linguistic) pedant, I empathise with you on the urge to correct people, but I feel like we grow a teensy bit every time we resist that urge :)
i like correcting people and i like being corrected-i love trivia and little details, i want to be as logistically correct as possible for maximum understanding among peers. although i suppose the difference there is whether youre going "well actually" or "fun fact!"
Just a good point being made in general, thankful more folks are bringing this sort of " weaponized pedantry ( & conversely weaponized fuckwittery ) " to task. Cheers dude!!
honestly youre so real for this just learning rn, but for the past year ive been trying to shut up and not do this, im so bad at it still. thank you for putting it into words!!
I used to behave this way about other topics when I was a kid because I grew up in an environment where intelligence was valued and I felt like it was demonstrating my intelligence/value to correct others. Then I grew up and realized that social systems also require a certain level of intelligence: as Linus said, when to shut the F up. You don't come off as smart and cool when you frame everything around correcting others, you come off as a jerk. I also... learned other things! Some of which changed my perception of behaviors I'd previously considered "errors!" Which means that by "correcting" people on it, I was showing my lack of knowledge of the subject, in a way. You have to give room for people to grow, including yourself. (Also, it's very funny to see the hand in the pedant position ☝️ in the background of a video about pedantry.)
"An underrated life skill in my opinion is knowing when to shut the fuck up." This exact phrase has been my life mantra for years, haha. Kudos from a fellow designer.
Forgive me for reading like a review but I've only just found your channel and you're stupendously insightful. So studied, well spoken, and succinct. It's no wonder Internet Shaquille is a viewer, who's videos similarly respect the audience, possessing no interest in wasting time and attention. The information is dense and pragmatic, yet you're relaxed and engaging. I'm sure there's plenty effort and work to produce these but there's polish in how persistently restrained and clear cut its all presented and speaks volumes of the design practices and values you espouse and maintain. In an unending ocean of disrespectful viewbaiting and frivolous nothing content I'm just a little spellbound when a gem of a channel like yours somehow percolates to the surface and I really appreciate that it exists and you're doing what you're doing. Thanks Linus. Cheers from Sydney! 🥂
I dunno, this topic may be less interesting for you, but learning the history of fonts and typefaces in this video was really interesting to me. So, in a way, the pedant's distinction has gifted us viewers some wonderful new (old) knowledge :) And actually, I'd love to see you produce a longer deep dive video into that history!
Been a huge fan of your videos for a while now and I couldn't agree with you more on this. Love the phrase 'Weaponised Trivia' especially! Thanks for always producing such accessible, informative and thoroughly entertaining content!
I think in typeface design circles the definition of a typeface and font has changed also, and there is a practical reason to keep using them. I myself and a lot of my friends define typeface as the design and the font as a specific means of reproduction. Therefore, the fonts folder is named appropriately, etc. And it’s helpful when discussing faces like Garamont/Helvetica/Palatino that have like 900 different digitisations where you might actually want to discriminate between talking about the face at large vs a specific font. Though for the general population it really really does not matter. They generally use the term correctly just by accident too if you use the more modern-adjusted definitions.
Here's a question, do periods (full stops) change from font to font? On one hand it's like, how would you, and on the other it's that someone must have tried.
Thank you for making this!! I remember totally doing this when I first got into typography.... (also love the small aspect ratio for these types of videos!)
This entire video is fascinating. However, the first minute and a half is an invaluable life lesson. I've also spent a lot of my life being "that guy", and although I've begun to recognize it and try to mitigate it, I hear it coming out of my kids' mouths all too often. We'll be watching that section together - and probably frequently. Thank you!
*Me, a software engineer:* Thank goodness, I hate this kind of pedantic trivia. *Linus:* "... HTML and CSS has font tags..." *Me:* So you've chosen war.
Very much agree! When I started my design education I was told to always be careful to use the appropriate term and prefer "typeface" because it sounds more professional. Really got tiring because it's honestly a waste of brainpower 90% of the time, and usually just leads to more confusion for most people and situations. I'll still specify typeface when the distinction is important, or if it's a somewhat formal context, but 99% of the time I just say "font" because it's generally understood in the same way. And yes the meaning has definitely changed over time, so it's not even really "wrong" most of the time
‘tomatoes aren’t a vegetable, they’re a fruit’ pedantry, is the worst kind of pedantry, the confidently incorrect kind. It’s mixing up botanical and culinary categories that are overlapping, but not really related.
I like this aspect ratio for more casual videos. Internet Shaquille does the same thing on his second channel, and it has always felt a bit cozy to me.
In my experience, when you change the "font" in a text editor (or graphic app) you are actually thinking of the whole thing (face, size, weight) in a more organic way, since they appear to be just parameters of a single entity.
OMG as the "regular person who doesn't understand the difference and appreciates you saying 'font'", thank you and great example with the tomato. Hate people fighting about whether it's a fruit or a vegetable. It doesn't matter at all.
There are alot of terms like this where some designers insist on speaking like they are typesetting for a letterpress machine when what they are mostly having to do is make banner ads, emails and landing pages. All this means is that when you are speaking with the developer who is going to bring your design to life in code you're making it harder by using different words for everything.
Tomatoes are actually vegetables. They are also fruits, but all fruits that we consume are vegetables. Semantics may not matter, but they sure are fun.
If you’re missing a word that captures roughly the same meaning as ‘typeface’ I think ‘font family’ does that fairly nicely too, and everyone probably understands what you mean (even if they haven’t heard the term before).
Yeah - as another commenter in thread said, today we speak of a "font family," presumably because the lay public no longer knows what exactly a typeface is. So while you argue about it ... the English language has already moved on. (:
I've been trying to say "typeface" when I actually do mean a family of fonts (say, Helvetica and its family of weights both regular and oblique), but I still end up saying "font". But when I say "font", I always tend to be referring to the most commonly used weight and non-italic/oblique. There will forever be ambiguity, but luckily it is indeed semantics and not critical.
I've always thought of a font being the technology, the typeface being the design. Lettering is neither a font or a typeface, but you can make either into a font, whether it be a physical set or software implemented set.
Totally agree, about that life lesson. There is a small subset of cases where something has also become a political signifier and I think the person is going to be receptive in terms of avoiding giving-off a dogwhistle unintentionally, and even then I make it ultra clear that I'm not using it to score points over them. Or, sometimes someone else is using weaponised pedantry but has actually gotten it wrong themselves. I am happy to unleash the full force of that energy back on them. After all, there's nothing wrong with recreational pedantry if you don't lord it over somebody. But if you do lord it over somebody, you'd better bloody-well be right!
Oh, wow! I never knew the difference between the two until now. Thanks for the info! 😇 I will now utilize this learning opportunity to weaponize this trivia in all future conversations that involve the word "font" in any way, shape, or form. 😈
I'm a linguistics nerd and I completely agree. I didn't know that the word "font" had an everyday definition simultaneous but distinct from "typeface." I did know typeface was strictly an analog era term that has been replaced by the word font, which had some sort of narrower definition in the analog era. All that said, unless you're depicting dialog in a predigital setting, there's no reason to use typeface outside of describing what it used to mean before it became an archaic word.
Hi Linus! I always enjoy your videos, and I agree with this one to an extent, but I would ask you to also consider the perspective of neurodivergent people and how they create rigid systems to make sense of a world that's structured for neurotypical people. TLDR: Neurodivergent people might correct you in an unemotional way with no ill intent, since for them their motivation is not external but personal/internal-focused. You've said something outside of the accepted system of communication and they are restoring order (i.e. A≠B, A=A). Disclaimer: I'm not an expert or medical professional. As an experiential designer, I've mainly learned about this to try to make the things I design more accessible to more humans so I can more effectively communicate to a broader audience. So for a neurotypical person (or even for neurodivergent people based on their life experience) this "correction" reads as "rude". And it's almost always justified if you feel that way because of our personal experiences - we've all been in situations where this type of correcting was antisocial behavior because the motivation those people had for correcting you was hurting you (for example "I'm going to take him down a peg because I'm insecure and that makes me feel jealous which makes me uncomfortable"). If you've ever felt like "a fish out of water" or were in a situation with "culture clash", try to imagine that is literally the vast majority of your social interactions and it might give you some context for being neurodivergent. I look forward to your next video, cheers!
What are the chances really that those comments are coming from neurodivergent people and not pedantic jerks? Or even just pedantic neurodivergent jerks?
I sympathise with that perspective, and I have a lot more patience for unsolicited corrections in face to face interactions if I feel the motivation isn't malicious.
@@LinusBomansorry dude you run a public channel making money on our views. And I’m guessing comments, even if somehow unsolicited, help your videos reach more people … You’re being petty.
As someone currently in the process of being certified to work with autistic adolescents, this is BEYOND true and I'm thankful this comment is here. More importantly than that: most autistic people learn _best,_ in my experience, by correcting/being corrected because that level of structure in regards to information sharing. Seeing multiple autistic kids discussing stuff while constantly correcting each other and learning together towards a goal of better understanding is... honestly really refreshing and a part of me wishes more neurotypical people would be open to that.
I'm neurodivergent, and I wish people would stop making excuses for us. Being neurodivergent isn't an excuse for being a dickhead trying to make other people feel stupid by pedantically correcting them. Unless you're so severely low-functioning that you're incapable of understanding that (and if you're that low functioning you probably are already living in some kind of care home as you're incapable of taking care of yourself) then it's pretty obvious when to shut up about this kind of thing. Like this is why we go to school as children. It's not just to learn academic information. It's also about learning how to socialise with people. There's so many people who are smart arses when they're 12, and maybe they get bullied a lot and so they retreat into themselves and consider themselves superior to the bullies and everyone else because of their intelligence and knowledge as a defense mechanism to help cope with the emotional pain of being bullied (I was one of those kids, I became a smart arse because I was bullied a lot and thought everyone else was an idiot compared to me). But by the time they're an adult they should have developed social intelligence too, which is just as important. A lot of it is just about knowing when to shut up. And I admit I don't shut up anywhere near as much as I should on anonymous online forums such as UA-cam comments sections, it's my escape to be able to smartarse it up as much as I want without people knowing who I am. But in real life I know when to shut up and not be pedantic and annoying to people. In real life I've just learned to listen. I've been told I'm a great listener. It isn't difficult. And when I was a young adult, going to university really made me understand how little I know about the world, and it humbled me, as it does everyone who goes to university. It's the cure for smartarseism. Because the more you learn, the more you realise you don't know. And so going to university is really an experience everyone should have access to because it really does help cure that pedantic behaviour. You realise there's so many people who know more than you will ever know even if you spent a lifetime in academia. People who didn't go to university say they went to "the university of life" but really, going to university teaches you that humility that ultimately is more important than the actual content of the undergraduate degree you learn. It teaches neurodivergent people how to behave in the real world. And luckily neurodivergent people tend to be more likely to go to university in the first place. So it's a sort of self-correcting system.
I believe it’s a collection of font files that are grouped together on your computer. But if you’re not a stick in the mud, it’s the same thing as a type face
Similar to a typeface, but may include different typefaces that are meant to go together. For example, text and display variations of a sans serif, plus a serif and monospaced slab-serif that are all meant to work together.
Hi Linus, thank you for the nice video, as always *Very* ot with the video, but related with the current news: What is the downing street nr. "10" typeface?
Greetings pedants! Yes, vegetable is not a botanical classification. As for fonts, you can read the bottom of this page for a clear written argument (not mine) - practicaltypography.com/font-basics.html or a nuanced and technical discussion among type experts here about the terms in a professional context web.archive.org/web/20170731194203/fontfeed.com/archives/font-or-typeface/
You should make a DESIGN PEDANT CLUB tee! Now that's merch I'd buy!
Well actually, I think you'll find that what you've defined is actually called a "fount", not a "font"... 😁😁😁
(Just to join it the pointless pedantry! (or should that be "0pt pedantry"...?))
Just a thought: If you didn't want the topic to be negative, then maybe you could have titled the video something like "The Difference Between a Typeface and a Font" and not mentioned the comments, while still having a discussion, if you'd like, on pedantry. By the way, your to-the-point outro was unexpected but welcome. I like your editing style.
Well actually my ego is tied up with correcting anonymous people online.
Loser. My ego is tied to correcting people at work when I overhear them say "font". I'm thinking of quitting, everyone hates me for some reason.
Well actually "people" are not "on" line, blablefrvbleft ...(onlinus?)
Well actually this is the most likes I've ever gotten on a youtube comment
@@RaymondTheThirdseriously? Your account is 13 years old…
Well actually a typeface comes from a linotype machine. Everything else is sparkling font.
actually a typeface is how letters look, a font is a magic bird bath
Don't blaspheme the holy sacrament of the baptismal typeface
"Well actually Gran-Gran, you didn't send me a letter, you sent me many letters, and punctuation, which made up a message that you posted me."
"Well, actually, dear, I sent you an organization of letters and punctuation in a format defined as a letter. Seems my own grandchild forgot that words can have multiple independent meanings. Love, grandma"
Hey! A note!
Yeah but turn it over, there's a letter!
And I got this message from my parents!
"weaponized trivia" is such a great term, next time someone does that to me I'm gonna say "uuuhmm akshually you are not being helpful, you are just weaponizing trivia 🤓"
that'll show them!
yes, i do indeed have weaponized autism
You're so cool!
I already know I’m going to become so obnoxious using this phrase all the time 😅
I like Ciarán Hinds' character Fushima in "Miami Vice": 'I'm not changing my Op plan for speculation masquerading as intel.'
"Weaponizing trivia" is a great term.
"An underrated life skill, is learning when to shut the F up"
Amen. Best lesson I ever learned.
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt.
For real. It's the best lesson anyone can learn.
Discernment is huge. It makes things better for all involved. Because then you can start to find when that “well actually” *will* be received positively.
It opens up so many interesting conversations with the right people, and prevents wasted time with the wrong people.
Not related to this video, but related to the comment: it can also be very good to know when to open your mouth. Looking like a fool is sometimes a very small risk compared to actually being one (by remaining ignorant of a thing you're afraid of asking, or by choosing not to speak up for yourself or others). It can be very good to summon that courage.
Takes one to know one!
at the very least: if you’re going to be pedantic, be right.
Wow I remember seeing a lot of your comments a few years ago and here I recognize you again, so strange (it was on Dankpod)
Well actually this is known as Muphry’s Law.
@@kyoyeou5899 👋
I like this take.
i require my art appreciation students know the difference between "achromatic" and "monochromatic", but i teach them to not be cops about it
But what about "aromatic" and "monocratic"?
@@cameron7374 but what about "aromantic" and "monostatic"?
@@kezia8027But what about "acromanic" and "monastic"?
@woodfur00 But what about "aromantic" and "monoromantic"?
@@Ten_Thousand_Locusts But what about "acroamatic" and "monotheistic"?
"Weaponising trivia" is such a precise way of describing this phenomenon. I'm so sick of it. Thanks Linus.
THANK YOU omg the amount of ppl in my design class who would pull this out just to seem smart is insane
Now you can link them to this video! And hope their smugness subsides 😆
ap ap ah.... the NUMBER of people in your design class!
@@internetshaquille my life changed for the worse after I learned this difference, now I see it everywhere
@@internetshaquilleOff-topic but your vids reinvigorated my desire to cook and eat more good...I mean cook and eat better. :D
"An underrated life skill is knowing when to STFU."
Amen! That was a hard-won skill for me, and my life improved significantly once I mastered it.
I also feel like nowadays, in part due to web, a lot of people might make a distinction between a font and a font family, with the word "typeface" being mostly lost to history
lost
lost
lost
I wonder if all this came about because "Font" was easier to fit in the Microsoft Word toolbar than "Typeface"
Similarly, "font" is quicker and easier to type when writing CSS/HTML!
This is how it was taught to me so sorry if I’m wrong but my typography teacher said it was Steve jobs who liked the word font for aethstetic reasons, so he added it to MacWrite for the macintosh in 1984 instead of the word typeface. Microsoft Word (then known as Multi-tool Word) did come out before this on Xenix and Dos, but neither at the time had the ability to change the look of the letters, as that wasn’t something word did till 1985
To be clear: Font IS the correct term for the dialog box and the file format.
For the former, you are never simply selecting a typeface, you are also selecting the size, the weight, and certain other properties. And for the files themselves, while there's no distinction between font sizes anymore, weights have to be seperated out into different files.
There is technically no point in that process where "Typeface" applies over "Font"
@@watchm4kerTrue, but the font drop-down menu selects a typeface family, and the other font settings like size and weight are in other menus. The distinction is not really worth making, however.
This video was a typeface of knowledge.
I am a massive fan of the ratio change! I find mself really drawn to less widescreen formats and more closer to 4:3 and square.
Thanks mate, it's just something I'm trying for "semi short form" videos for now. But people seem to like it.
yea I don't know what it is exactly, but internet shaquille also started switching over to that format and it just feels so much better, plus it's more "platform agnostic"
It’s an interesting choice 🙂
Linus, is there any design reasoning behind it in particular?
@@LinusBoman its a good decision. is this the start of linus' cinemtography arc?!?!
I love 4:3 videos! Reminds me of old screens. I also love the wide ratios used in TV, so maybe I'm just bored of the standard...
1:22 I used to do this too. I think it's a form of insecurity. If you aren't secure in your own knowledge you have to put it out there for others to see. Or if you feel you have nothing else to offer (also insecure) then you have to share what you can offer in order to feel valuable. Once I began to develop security/confidence in general. I found it far less important to do this. Unless someone is REALLY off base, then I'll still (hopefully gently) correct them.
I also used to do this, though I think the cause was different in my case. Insecurity, perhaps, but not insecurity in my knowledge. If I was insecure about that, putting it out there would be the last thing I'd want to do. Instead, it was the *only* source of security for me. Language being consistent and sensible was a proxy for the world being consistent and sensible, so pedantry became an anchor. I corrected people not to look or feel superior, but because it caused me genuine distress to think they were operating in a mistaken version of reality.
I think what helped me was shifting my mindset about language, rather than shifting how I felt about people making mistakes. Things may physically exist, but categories of things are almost always arbitrary human abstractions, and thus so are words, and so categories and the language about them can change over time.
Well actually, there's nothing (biologically speaking) stopping a tomato from being both a fruit and a vegetable, at the same time.
A ton of veggies are fruits in the scientific sense, it's interesting that tomato gets called out. Nobody is correcting people about how corn is actually a fruit.
Schrödinger’s tomato. 😄
@@glennac Akshually Schrödinger's cat is not a thought experiment, it's an animal.
The fun thing about vegetables is that (botanically speaking) the term doesn't really mean anything at all.
Well actually vegetables are not a botanical or biological group but a something mothers force kids to eat.
I bet every field has its own best "well actually" hairsplitting. Well actually, mass and weight are different. Well actually simmer and stew are different...
"Well actually, what you're referring to is GNU + Linux..."
Well actually the difference between mass and weight is quite significative in physics. While in every day life this is not important I think that even a UA-cam video doing physics vulgarisation should not confuse those two terms. Those are words with very precise definitions in a very technical domain.
Other examples are different: even designers do not need to care about the difference between font and typeface, or developers about the difference between Linux and GNU/Linux.
@@sacha9593 Well actually, yes, if a physics video gets it wrong that's one thing, but I don't expect to ever see some package or other item weight in kg*m/s^2 😀
@@cameron7374 This is my favorite one because after I read that article I excised every single piece of GNU software from my system and replaced it with BSD equivalents so that it would be completely inaccurate to call my system GNU/Linux.
Well actually it’s not the “Nobel Prize in Economics” it’s a different prize merely sponsored by the Nobel foundation.
2:35 My grandfather worked as a setter in his youth. Already back then the technology was being phased out, and he went on to become a journalist. He ended working in television, back when it still had some prestige to it. He was a great man, and whenever I hear stories about traditional setting in printing presses, I always think of him.
Sweet
Isn't a setter a type of dog? Your grandfather was an Irish Setter?
@@duffman18 I like the idea of a Type Setter: A dog that has letters as spots.
I deeply appreciate that this channel is mostly you discussing things you like. At the same time, I also deeply appreciate this video and your sentiment behind it. Language evolves, and we can be a part of it evolving in a way that improves understanding and unites our collective knowledge, or we can be a part of it evolving in a way that divides us and makes it harder to talk to each other. Peace and love
If people want to be pedantic, fuck 'em. You kick ass, dude.
I fight fire with fire. There was one notorious 'corrector' on typeface vs font, I made a note on the exact wording used to describe the importance of getting things right. Then I waited for a semester for the 'corrector' to use "uppercase" to describe a capital glyph in a script, I well actuallyed that scripts aren't types so have no association with cases and well actually the correct terms are "minuscule" and "majuscule" then gave the same boring spiel on correctness.
king shit right here. “you are technically correct, I don’t care, shut the fuck up”
1:27 "An underrated life skill, in my opinion, is knowing when to shut the fuck up, because all you're doing is alienating people" - words of wisdom! I learned that after many years of grammar-policing. It still bugs me, but language is a living thing and some things are harder to accept than others (I'm lookin' at you, "alright")
Even though your video focuses on fonts, typeface and design, your message can certainly be applied to many areas and subjects around the internet these days. Seems everyone wants to sound smart and continue to correct people on irrelevant semantics. Thank you for this video, really well said.
common descriptivist W
😈 also ui and ux are the same thing 😈
🌶️🌶️🌶️
UI is sandpaper toilet roll.
UX is your bleeding backside.
devious statement. i like your attitude
No. UI is the attempt and UX the result. UX also encompases non-UI elements, like cutscenes, difficulty, frame rates on minimum hardware... UX varies by user; UI is set by the devs.
@@WilliamHostman How's that bait taste
The perfect response to someone correcting a word you used just to be petty is:
"Well you knew what I meant right? Cause otherwise how did you correct me?"
Gets em every time.
😂👏👏👏
Perfect response? I would have expected the dudeish „Well… that‘s like… your opinion, man.“
@@hoozn that doesn't work on people who don't get the reference lol
3:40 was obvious and mattered! If someone said "move that font" that's a pain in the butt, but doable. "Move that type face" and oh boy... it's a whole day! haha
I never get why people are so hung up on tomatoes being fruits- so many vegetables are botanically fruit (cucumber, peppers, aubergine, pumpkins, peas etc, then there's the nuts- peanuts, walnut, hazelnut . . . all technically fruit) but it's only the tomato that people seem compelled to 'well actually' about
Because it's the only one they know.
Tomato was changed by congress from being a fruit to a vegetable to avoid a tax. That's why it's the poster child.
Probably because tomatoes are an essential part of pizza, and in the western hemisphere, everyone and their dog knows and loves pizza.
Girl what are you talking about? People "well actually" about all those other fruits plenty of the time!
@@matesafranka6110 exactly. Vegetable is not a scientific term. It's a culinary one. Tons and tons and tons of vegetables are fruits. It's not a biological category, it's a food category. Vegetables can be fruits, they can be roots, they can be types of grass, there's all sorts of things that fit into the culinary category called "vegetables".
So when people make their stupid repetitive jokes like "hurr derr intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit, wisdom is knowing to not use tomatoes in a fruit salad" it just misses the point completely. They're trying to sound smart by using a joke that a million other people have already made a million times, they kind of reveal how little they actually know.
As someone who knows next to nothing about your craft, I wholeheartedly thank you for not gatekeeping and for providing so much lovely insight :)
As a fellow (although linguistic) pedant, I empathise with you on the urge to correct people, but I feel like we grow a teensy bit every time we resist that urge :)
i like correcting people and i like being corrected-i love trivia and little details, i want to be as logistically correct as possible for maximum understanding among peers. although i suppose the difference there is whether youre going "well actually" or "fun fact!"
I, too, enjoy friendly pedantry....most folks do not, but I am lucky to know a few fellow enthusiasts : )
How can I got to bed if someone on the internet is wrong?
Just a good point being made in general, thankful more folks are bringing this sort of " weaponized pedantry ( & conversely weaponized fuckwittery ) " to task. Cheers dude!!
My first semester of graphic design my professsors were all these trypeface vs font type of guys. 😮💨 we even had it as a question on multiple tests.
honestly youre so real for this
just learning rn, but for the past year ive been trying to shut up and not do this, im so bad at it still. thank you for putting it into words!!
I used to behave this way about other topics when I was a kid because I grew up in an environment where intelligence was valued and I felt like it was demonstrating my intelligence/value to correct others. Then I grew up and realized that social systems also require a certain level of intelligence: as Linus said, when to shut the F up. You don't come off as smart and cool when you frame everything around correcting others, you come off as a jerk. I also... learned other things! Some of which changed my perception of behaviors I'd previously considered "errors!" Which means that by "correcting" people on it, I was showing my lack of knowledge of the subject, in a way. You have to give room for people to grow, including yourself.
(Also, it's very funny to see the hand in the pedant position ☝️ in the background of a video about pedantry.)
Hahaha! I used to LOVE to make that distinction back in the 90's! I felt so clever and cool! :D
He really said if you want to “we’ll actually” me, let me well actually back but harder.
As with other things on the internet, you can always count on people to be expert on something they didn't even know was a thing 12 minutes ago.
"An underrated life skill in my opinion is knowing when to shut the fuck up." This exact phrase has been my life mantra for years, haha. Kudos from a fellow designer.
"Well, actually..." and "Wait, you forgot..." are the Bevis & Butthead of internet discourse.
Achshually
Forgive me for reading like a review but I've only just found your channel and you're stupendously insightful. So studied, well spoken, and succinct. It's no wonder Internet Shaquille is a viewer, who's videos similarly respect the audience, possessing no interest in wasting time and attention. The information is dense and pragmatic, yet you're relaxed and engaging. I'm sure there's plenty effort and work to produce these but there's polish in how persistently restrained and clear cut its all presented and speaks volumes of the design practices and values you espouse and maintain.
In an unending ocean of disrespectful viewbaiting and frivolous nothing content I'm just a little spellbound when a gem of a channel like yours somehow percolates to the surface and I really appreciate that it exists and you're doing what you're doing. Thanks Linus. Cheers from Sydney! 🥂
I dunno, this topic may be less interesting for you, but learning the history of fonts and typefaces in this video was really interesting to me. So, in a way, the pedant's distinction has gifted us viewers some wonderful new (old) knowledge :)
And actually, I'd love to see you produce a longer deep dive video into that history!
This video is honestly the thing that has knocked the most active pedantry out of me. Thanks, Linus /gen
Focal length and colour grading looking 👌
and yourself, of course
Well, actually, being an insufferable smart ass of "technically correction" is the whole reason I studied design, so...
You must be a delight at parties.😅
@@glennacpeople who use the phrase "you must be fun at parties" must be fun at parties
@@ghostAFsky How’d ja’ know! 🤪
Been a huge fan of your videos for a while now and I couldn't agree with you more on this. Love the phrase 'Weaponised Trivia' especially! Thanks for always producing such accessible, informative and thoroughly entertaining content!
I don't remember if I ever tried to correct someone but I do remember my professor telling me I should or something along those lines.
I think in typeface design circles the definition of a typeface and font has changed also, and there is a practical reason to keep using them. I myself and a lot of my friends define typeface as the design and the font as a specific means of reproduction. Therefore, the fonts folder is named appropriately, etc. And it’s helpful when discussing faces like Garamont/Helvetica/Palatino that have like 900 different digitisations where you might actually want to discriminate between talking about the face at large vs a specific font. Though for the general population it really really does not matter. They generally use the term correctly just by accident too if you use the more modern-adjusted definitions.
Shutting up is honestly a superpower. Good take, good video.
Here's a question, do periods (full stops) change from font to font? On one hand it's like, how would you, and on the other it's that someone must have tried.
the size can change a bit, and whether they're circles, ovals, skewed ovals, or diamonds
"An underrated life skill is knowing when to shut the fuck up." BASED
Thank you for making this!! I remember totally doing this when I first got into typography....
(also love the small aspect ratio for these types of videos!)
Robwords brought me here
This entire video is fascinating. However, the first minute and a half is an invaluable life lesson. I've also spent a lot of my life being "that guy", and although I've begun to recognize it and try to mitigate it, I hear it coming out of my kids' mouths all too often. We'll be watching that section together - and probably frequently. Thank you!
"An underrated life skill, in my opinion, is knowing when to shut the f__k up." I love that.
I like to say, "everyone understood my meaning, and you clearly understood my meaning, so language successful."
*Me, a software engineer:* Thank goodness, I hate this kind of pedantic trivia.
*Linus:* "... HTML and CSS has font tags..."
*Me:* So you've chosen war.
(Just kidding, we got what you mean.)
Absolutely outstanding point made here. Well done, as always. 👍😁👍
Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not using it in a fruit salad 😉
THANK YOU!!!
YOU UNDERSTAND!!
YOUVE PUT THIS SO WELL!
Well, actually, I'm glad for those pedants leaving those comments for I would not have had the joy of watching this video.
Very much agree! When I started my design education I was told to always be careful to use the appropriate term and prefer "typeface" because it sounds more professional. Really got tiring because it's honestly a waste of brainpower 90% of the time, and usually just leads to more confusion for most people and situations. I'll still specify typeface when the distinction is important, or if it's a somewhat formal context, but 99% of the time I just say "font" because it's generally understood in the same way. And yes the meaning has definitely changed over time, so it's not even really "wrong" most of the time
‘tomatoes aren’t a vegetable, they’re a fruit’ pedantry, is the worst kind of pedantry, the confidently incorrect kind. It’s mixing up botanical and culinary categories that are overlapping, but not really related.
I like this aspect ratio for more casual videos. Internet Shaquille does the same thing on his second channel, and it has always felt a bit cozy to me.
I shamelessly copied his idea.
Love the aspect ratio, this should be standard in the present day!
“Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad” - Miles Kington
The ☝️ on the shelf behind you was a nice touch!
1:00 funny how often it is that that is the best response...
In my experience, when you change the "font" in a text editor (or graphic app) you are actually thinking of the whole thing (face, size, weight) in a more organic way, since they appear to be just parameters of a single entity.
OMG as the "regular person who doesn't understand the difference and appreciates you saying 'font'", thank you and great example with the tomato. Hate people fighting about whether it's a fruit or a vegetable. It doesn't matter at all.
There are alot of terms like this where some designers insist on speaking like they are typesetting for a letterpress machine when what they are mostly having to do is make banner ads, emails and landing pages. All this means is that when you are speaking with the developer who is going to bring your design to life in code you're making it harder by using different words for everything.
Thank you, just Thank you for "weaponized trivia".
Angela Collier did a great video about Gell-Mann Amnesia that discusses this idea of weaponizing trivia
Robwords sent me here and so grateful. Immediately subscribed everything Linus.
Actual truth vs functional truth. I was bad for correcting people.
Tomatoes are actually vegetables. They are also fruits, but all fruits that we consume are vegetables.
Semantics may not matter, but they sure are fun.
If you’re missing a word that captures roughly the same meaning as ‘typeface’ I think ‘font family’ does that fairly nicely too, and everyone probably understands what you mean (even if they haven’t heard the term before).
Hear hear. Intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit, wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad.
"Weaponized trivia" is such a great term for doing what you think it's an invaluable contribution when practically speaking you just yelled at a cloud
0:35 Well actually, tomato is BOTH a fruit and a vegetable 😎
the linguistic descriptivism angle is a really good way to tackle this problem
Yeah - as another commenter in thread said, today we speak of a "font family," presumably because the lay public no longer knows what exactly a typeface is. So while you argue about it ... the English language has already moved on. (:
I've been trying to say "typeface" when I actually do mean a family of fonts (say, Helvetica and its family of weights both regular and oblique), but I still end up saying "font". But when I say "font", I always tend to be referring to the most commonly used weight and non-italic/oblique. There will forever be ambiguity, but luckily it is indeed semantics and not critical.
I've always thought of a font being the technology, the typeface being the design. Lettering is neither a font or a typeface, but you can make either into a font, whether it be a physical set or software implemented set.
Great video! You’re excellent at describing all sorts of topics for the layman (like me).
Thank you, algorithm, for sharing this video with me! Its got it all, good life lessons, learning opportunities and a lil history lesson!
I bet you got that tomato analogy from Innuendo Studios, I really love that video.
Thanks for this video. I can't wait to annoy my friends by telling them they're wrong when they say font. Cheers!
Totally agree, about that life lesson. There is a small subset of cases where something has also become a political signifier and I think the person is going to be receptive in terms of avoiding giving-off a dogwhistle unintentionally, and even then I make it ultra clear that I'm not using it to score points over them.
Or, sometimes someone else is using weaponised pedantry but has actually gotten it wrong themselves. I am happy to unleash the full force of that energy back on them. After all, there's nothing wrong with recreational pedantry if you don't lord it over somebody. But if you do lord it over somebody, you'd better bloody-well be right!
Oh, wow! I never knew the difference between the two until now. Thanks for the info! 😇
I will now utilize this learning opportunity to weaponize this trivia in all future conversations that involve the word "font" in any way, shape, or form. 😈
I'm a linguistics nerd and I completely agree. I didn't know that the word "font" had an everyday definition simultaneous but distinct from "typeface." I did know typeface was strictly an analog era term that has been replaced by the word font, which had some sort of narrower definition in the analog era.
All that said, unless you're depicting dialog in a predigital setting, there's no reason to use typeface outside of describing what it used to mean before it became an archaic word.
Hi Linus! I always enjoy your videos, and I agree with this one to an extent, but I would ask you to also consider the perspective of neurodivergent people and how they create rigid systems to make sense of a world that's structured for neurotypical people.
TLDR: Neurodivergent people might correct you in an unemotional way with no ill intent, since for them their motivation is not external but personal/internal-focused. You've said something outside of the accepted system of communication and they are restoring order (i.e. A≠B, A=A).
Disclaimer: I'm not an expert or medical professional. As an experiential designer, I've mainly learned about this to try to make the things I design more accessible to more humans so I can more effectively communicate to a broader audience.
So for a neurotypical person (or even for neurodivergent people based on their life experience) this "correction" reads as "rude". And it's almost always justified if you feel that way because of our personal experiences - we've all been in situations where this type of correcting was antisocial behavior because the motivation those people had for correcting you was hurting you (for example "I'm going to take him down a peg because I'm insecure and that makes me feel jealous which makes me uncomfortable").
If you've ever felt like "a fish out of water" or were in a situation with "culture clash", try to imagine that is literally the vast majority of your social interactions and it might give you some context for being neurodivergent.
I look forward to your next video, cheers!
What are the chances really that those comments are coming from neurodivergent people and not pedantic jerks? Or even just pedantic neurodivergent jerks?
I sympathise with that perspective, and I have a lot more patience for unsolicited corrections in face to face interactions if I feel the motivation isn't malicious.
@@LinusBomansorry dude you run a public channel making money on our views. And I’m guessing comments, even if somehow unsolicited, help your videos reach more people … You’re being petty.
As someone currently in the process of being certified to work with autistic adolescents, this is BEYOND true and I'm thankful this comment is here. More importantly than that: most autistic people learn _best,_ in my experience, by correcting/being corrected because that level of structure in regards to information sharing. Seeing multiple autistic kids discussing stuff while constantly correcting each other and learning together towards a goal of better understanding is... honestly really refreshing and a part of me wishes more neurotypical people would be open to that.
I'm neurodivergent, and I wish people would stop making excuses for us. Being neurodivergent isn't an excuse for being a dickhead trying to make other people feel stupid by pedantically correcting them. Unless you're so severely low-functioning that you're incapable of understanding that (and if you're that low functioning you probably are already living in some kind of care home as you're incapable of taking care of yourself) then it's pretty obvious when to shut up about this kind of thing. Like this is why we go to school as children. It's not just to learn academic information. It's also about learning how to socialise with people. There's so many people who are smart arses when they're 12, and maybe they get bullied a lot and so they retreat into themselves and consider themselves superior to the bullies and everyone else because of their intelligence and knowledge as a defense mechanism to help cope with the emotional pain of being bullied (I was one of those kids, I became a smart arse because I was bullied a lot and thought everyone else was an idiot compared to me). But by the time they're an adult they should have developed social intelligence too, which is just as important.
A lot of it is just about knowing when to shut up. And I admit I don't shut up anywhere near as much as I should on anonymous online forums such as UA-cam comments sections, it's my escape to be able to smartarse it up as much as I want without people knowing who I am. But in real life I know when to shut up and not be pedantic and annoying to people.
In real life I've just learned to listen. I've been told I'm a great listener. It isn't difficult. And when I was a young adult, going to university really made me understand how little I know about the world, and it humbled me, as it does everyone who goes to university. It's the cure for smartarseism. Because the more you learn, the more you realise you don't know. And so going to university is really an experience everyone should have access to because it really does help cure that pedantic behaviour. You realise there's so many people who know more than you will ever know even if you spent a lifetime in academia. People who didn't go to university say they went to "the university of life" but really, going to university teaches you that humility that ultimately is more important than the actual content of the undergraduate degree you learn. It teaches neurodivergent people how to behave in the real world. And luckily neurodivergent people tend to be more likely to go to university in the first place. So it's a sort of self-correcting system.
Whenever I write in fonts, the water makes the ink run, and the priest gets all angry that I'm ruining the christening.
What's a font family then?
I believe it’s a collection of font files that are grouped together on your computer. But if you’re not a stick in the mud, it’s the same thing as a type face
An example of his point that I'm computers the term "typeface" isn't used. "Font-family" is functionally the same
Similar to a typeface, but may include different typefaces that are meant to go together. For example, text and display variations of a sans serif, plus a serif and monospaced slab-serif that are all meant to work together.
Noto Sans: Font(a), TypeFace
Noto: Font Family
Noto Sans Bold 12: Font(b)
Hey @LinusBoman, can you make the next video about "How scrolls, ribbons, and banners with texts are important to graphics?" Please?
You'll find 'that person' in every office, and they're the reason everyone uses instant messaging instead of just speaking out loud.
Hi Linus, thank you for the nice video, as always
*Very* ot with the video, but related with the current news:
What is the downing street nr. "10" typeface?