The first 1,000 people to use the link will get a 1 month free trial of Skillshare: skl.sh/mockrocktalk12221 Thanks for watching! This was a fun tier list to do but one with a lot of room for interpretation, what did you think? Also a few notes, some taken from comments: -Giant Punch: I said this is quicker than DK's fair, which _technically_ comes out faster, but also starts above DK's head so functionally it does work out that way. I had this in my notes but forgot to bring it up at the time. I also said that you can't B-reverse it, and to clarify, I was talking about the charge during that segment. I'm aware you can B-reverse the punch itself. -"What about Kazuya's forward smash?" This is the most common one I've been asked about and in this case I actually agree it could've been on here. I considered it and rejected it when making the shortlist, but given how the tier list ended up looking overall, I think its speed-to-power ratio would justify a slot. -"What about Jigglypuff's Rest?" While I know there's some "slowness" built into it in the sense that it's very risky to miss, I don't think a frame 2 move belongs on this list. -"What about Little Mac's KO Punch?" Again it's very quick, and while you can certainly make the argument that it's a move that charges up, it's not available during the charge. Going by the rationale of dividing moves into their distinct stages I used, it doesn't fit, it's either not there at all or available instantly. Waft avoided this treatment because it's always available to use. -"Why didn't you mention Sephiroth's shield breaks?" I thought I'd demonstrated awareness of that through the Gigaflare -> forward smash combo shown in his section, but in retrospect I admit this probably didn't get the point across especially well and I could have mentioned that use case more explicitly. With videos like this I really can't cover every possible use for every possible move, but considering I mentioned shield break setups for several other characters, Sephiroth should have been included in that camp. *Main channel:* ua-cam.com/users/mockrocktv *Twitter:* twitter.com/MrMockRock *Patreon:* www.patreon.com/mockrock *Twitch:* www.twitch.tv/mockrocktwitch *Teespring:* teespring.com/stores/mockrock *TimeBolt affiliate link* (excellent software I use to speed up editing on my videos, use code "MOCKROCK" for a discount): mockrock--timebolt.thrivecart.com/order-page/
Maybe I missed it if you did, but if not you should have mentioned that charged Giant Punch is also extremely safe on shield (-6 with that pushback is ridiculous for the reward it has), is such a good move even to throw out because even if it is shielded or misses the risk of being punished is barely there
I think my favorite fun fact about Failnaught is that when Kirby gets a character's Neutral B, he gets a 1.2x damage multiplier so now a fully charged Failnaught DOES break sheilds
@@toxic_revenant3 yeah He mentioned it in the pyra Mythra showcase. He said that because Kirby “has to go through the trouble” of copying the move by inhaling the opponent and because he doesn’t get to pick what move he gets, he deserves the handicap
As a puff main, the sound of rest connecting and all other moves with the same noise (Luigi down taunt, G&W 9 ect.) Just invokes a primal feeling inside of me
As a Jigglypuff hater (though Jigglypuff is admittedly not my true least favorite in Smash) Im glad that rest wasnt in there. Even if it was, it would be D tier at best. It's so difficult to land and the punishment for missing is more severe than getting falcon-punched offstage. Though, at the same time, Hero's hatchet man should be higher since it's faster than many other big hits, instantly breaks shields and is just devastating as a whole.
Fun tip for Ike’s eruption: Charge it with the opponent on ledge standing in the spot just in front of their roll distance. People will try to roll through you and not realize the hitbox goes behind you as well, and if they stay on ledge or neutral get-up you can hit them with the fully charged pillars. Only works once a game but it’s funny as hell
Pyra’s Flame Nova isn’t actually safe on shield on average for one reason: you can spotdodge the hits, even fully charged. The multihits are timed too far apart and don’t put you in enough shield lag, meaning if you know the timing, you can always spotdodge the last hit and punish her harder with it, and the timing’s not exactly hard to adapt to either I say on average, though, because Pyra can also line herself right inside shields where both sides of the multihits will hit shield, which not only makes spotdodging much harder to time, but will actually break shields in full health. The spacing is specific but even slightly charged it can do some good shield damage I don’t think this’ll change placings; I just think Flame Nova’s just more complicated to use on shield, which still doesn’t take away how fast it is and how much it helps mixes up her recovery
This is fair and something I actually originally brought up last time I talked about Flame Nova (in my PJiggles reaction video), but I ended up cutting that part because I was having a _lot_ of trouble finding even a single example of someone doing this in a tournament environment. That admittedly will change over time and was still probably worth mentioning anyways, good point!
One thing you missed about Lucas’s up smash is that at the start of it, Lucas gains 7 frames of invincibility (not intangibility), 4 when charging, and 3 immediately after releasing.
YEAH i always think he seriously underestimates this move, it's an absolute beast and protects lucas on all sides. you just never see it because lucas is a pretty unpopular character nowadays
I liked to just pull it out at random sometimes to catch enemies off guard, grounded or aerial. The connector hits at the start are great for that kind of use lol
He did mention it though, it's just not enough to make the move "good". The top things in competitive play are consistency and whiff safety. Lucas up-smash has neither considering the huge startup/end lag. The I-frames are just a nice touch so that it's not AS bad as it could be
The time it takes Byleth to *FINISH* Aymr's *ENTIRE* non-cancelable animation two times over is 8 frames faster than the time it takes him to *FIRE* two fully charged Failnaught arrows. Let that sink in for a second.
One thing about mac’s straight thats worth noting is that you can jumpsquat cancel into it out of a dash, which is faster than shielding out of a dash. Since the armor is frame 1 on straight lunge, it can make some matchups more tolerable for mac. Still, i understand your placement for it.
Yee, i main dedede although I know he’s not great as a character competitively he’s got a lot going for him, he’s also just so fun to play hence why he’s my main
Force Palm is actually the reason I went with "Big Moves" rather than "Blue Screen Moves" which I was also considering for the theme. Idk why a relatively straightforward command grab gets the same VFX as Falcon Punch lol
To be fair, it only does the blue screen when lucario is at higher aura and it does big damage/knockback. At mid to lower aura, there's no blue screen effect.
I think my favorite use of DK's Giant Punch is the fact that you can turn it around while you're offstage and then cancel it so you can just spam back airs while trying to get back to stage. It gives the move utility in his recovery which is an aspect of Donkey Kong's play that definitely could use the help to say the least. Even outside of that, Giant Punch is probably one of his best moves and one of the best neutral specials in the game in my opinion.
@@crooker23 giant punch kills at insanely early percents, has several moves that true combo into it, if you time it with a jump, you can b reverse with the charge, the armor can tank freaking doriah, and it is literally safe on parry But also, dash attack can technically be -1 if you're really good and get a guaranteed jab that shield pokes. I forgot to mention that his down be might be the best spike in the game besides maybe Kirby's if you include the combos you get off it, the fact it's only like -4 on shield, and that it actually will spike at 0 which can quickly cheese Little Mac, Belmont's, Roy, or Pithra
@@crooker23 Up tilt is quite mediocre, being minus on hit at early percents and all. Forward tilt is above average but it's lack of kill power prevents it from being great and up B is too slow to use frequently on the ground and exploitable in the air. Dash attack and down tilt are really great though.
One thing I'd like to add about Whack: The thread of the insta kill is often more useful than the insta kill itself. You won't often land Whack in the areas that Thwack can't already cover (i.e. at long range). However, it functions well as a slow moving projectile that stays out very long to pressure an area. Nobody is going to chance an instant death, so by throwing it out, you force you opponent to either jump or shield, which Hero can punish if he runs with the projectile. I don't think this impacts Whack's placement in the tier list, but it is an important part of the move that I missed during its section in the video.
@@ashmyoshi3912 it does 1% i prefer the point black use of it because it's unreactable fast funny "touch of death" . Also being such a weak projectile it gets destroyed by ANY hitbox that collides with it (like a link nair) so most if not all characters can easily beat it, but most players have 0 experience and prefer not to risk a misinput
I think Dedede's up special should have been on this list. It's not the easiest to land, but when it does, you really feel it. Not to mention it's also one of the most satisfying spikes in the game. The spike hitbox is easier to land thanks to Gordo set ups.
49:15 the thing is, you're only thinking of it as a competitive game. They're not goint to stop making these moves because they are fun and funny outside of competitive play (and even in competetive play when they appear)
As someone who believes that Smash can and should strike a balance between competitive and casual play, I couldn't agree more. I actually love Amyr and Ive gotten a surprisingly large number of kills off it, I think Amyr is actually one of the better moves on the list.
it's easy and possible especially for such a creative team of developers, to make good big moves that work both casually and competitively. Just give them a weaker uncharged version or some other useful aspect
While this is valid for most of them, this excuse is nonsense for Ganondorf. FSmash can do what UTilt and Warlock Punch do, but way better. He has no reason to be stuck with two useless AND obsolete moves that don't even have anything to do with the source games. They aren't even a part of his identity as Falcondorf, nobody ever bothers with them outside of shield breaks.
I was thinking the same thing. If you play TOO competitively it takes away the fun of the game. And even if they suck competitive players will still use it because of the HYPE factor. They're just satisfying to land.
I would’ve put in Kazuya’s fsmash here. Sweetspot causes zoom and is incredibly powerful (sakurai himself said sweetspot is comparable to a falcon punch in power), sourspot also plenty strong but also clearly weaker, only a couple of frames slower than bowser fsmash and a couple of frames faster than ganon’s respectively. Being a finisher off of electric or demon god fist alone makes it plenty practical too although the timing can be more strict than continuing a combo until another finisher like upsmash, bair, upb or dragon upper will also confirm, and it’s use as a finisher is simultaneously more cast and/or di dependent than upsmash, bair, up b off electric and dragon upper off dgf, all of which are pretty universal. But, there are points in its favor over competitors off electric against certain cast members, di, percents etc. For example when close to the ledge against fastfallers/big bodies, even sourspot fsmash will kill earlier than any other option he has, much less a sweetspot even at center stage, which at middleish percents you can get against most of the cast as long as you’re positioned correctly. I’d compare it with flare blitz when Zard puts you in a techchase; could you do something less risky and rack up more damage and position yourself for a much easier kill later? Probably. But there are several scenarios where if you know, you just know. And for both of these moves it’s in scenarios where you put your opponent in position to get hit and have much less options to avoid them, unlike a lot of these other big moves where it’s just reads or hoping your opponent fucks up. There is an argument for dragon upper to be here also but I just think the risk reward ratio isn’t comparable to fsmash, imo. Where I think a lot of characters would get use out of upper, what with s and all, really only Kaz can make good use out of fsmash.
Sadly for Kazuya all his attacks lack impact, they lack that “oomph” that makes you feel the hit is actually strong and satisfying to land. It always feels like the character on the receiving end is being pulled off of stage by an external force.
IIRC In the showcase, Sakurai showed that a fully charged Kazuya F Smash would kill at like 20%. Idk if they changed that though, but if they haven't, then it absolutely deserves it.
Kazuya Fsmash and Dragon Uppercut need to be here. The fuck do you guys mean no "oomph" factor, have you ever landed either of these moves in neutral, Fsmash kills at like 15% on non heavies and Dragon Uppercut kills pretty fast too.
I feel like the peanut guns explosion is a punishment for bad choices in play. It has horrendous end lag because the Diddy Kong player shouldn't have held down the button for too long, but the other player gets hit with damage and knock back equal to a forward smash because you saw Diddy pop out the gun and hold it longer then a falcon punch yet still get hit.
34:31 one usage case that wasn't mentioned that i feel helps the move out is gigaflare as a shield break punish, since you can actually buffer a forward smash after releasing it and have a pretty damn good chance of killing your opponent at 0%. i know "its a good shield break punish" applies to a lot of this list so it cant be thought of as being too much of a selling point, however in the context of sephiroths kit i feel it benefits a lot from the fact that he can fish for shield breaks with stuff like down smash or just get them through things like shadow flare hits > ftilt on a damaged shield. great video as always man, keep up the good work
A couple things I wanna say about Game & Watch's Judge is that it's actually a 1 in 8 chance, as you can't get the same number twice in a row -and also apparently if you're losing, in the last 5 seconds of the match your chances to get a 9 get boosted massively but that's besides the point- I'd also argue that 6 is also a pretty good number to pull; it kills at around 150% (as opposed to the 500% that most other Judge numbers do in the chart it has in its wiki page) and is a semi-spike so it sends at a pretty evil angle that you can capitalize on or just kill someone that has a bad recovery outright. A 9 kills significantly earlier, in the single digits, and G&W also probably has way better ways to kill you at 150%, but if you wanna style on your opponent or something, a 6 isn't all that bad so you roughly have 1/3rd of numbers worth pulling
26:56 What do you mean, the sourspot is LITERALLY the only thing keeping that move from snapping the game’s balance in two, why else would the Discord Kirby mains claim it’s better than his dair lol
Jigglypuff rest always felt like a big move to me, i dont know if im the only one who feels that way. It not slow at all but it still has the commitment factor to it, and everytime it's used, its very hype and hits hard.
Im surprised D3s big sit up b wasnt considered a beeg move. Easily his funniest move. Also one thing to mention about jet hammer is that against characters with attackable projectiles or specifically olimar’s pikmen, the hammer hitbox stays out for way longer bc it pauses for every entity hit. There’s a ton of jank against olimar and you can get a few fairly well charged hammers off against him bc the pikmen leave him a sitting duck against it
A niche part of Dededes Jet Hammer is that the strongest part isn't at the self damage level, its the MOMENT before. Theres a small window where the move is absurdly strong if you time it right
Flaming sidekick is done real a disservice here, especially when its argued that it's worse than Amyr. Unlike Amyr, the move has negligible end lag, which is an absolute game changer for this type of move. This, combined with its armor, makes it so fishing for surprise hits with this move is surprisingly viable. Obviously Mii brawlers other moves are better, but I would consider this move way better than a lot of moves in C tier. Speaking of C tier, Judge is guaranteed to not roll the last number you rolled. Meaning you can fish for a 2 or a 1, then have 1/8 chance of the move rolling a 9, and a 7/8 chance of at least hitting your opponent hard enough for the move to be safe.
It wasn't covered but one of the things about Magic Burst is that if you have less than half MP it doesn't really kill that insanely well. It also doesn't last as long, so you can't ensure it hits ledge.
As a kirby main. I actually get some utility off of Hammer flip. The move is Trash to use in disadvantage or neutral, but as a ledgetrapping option, it is actually really good, especially when a lot of people jump off ledge againt kirby. When people jump off ledge just jump and hammer, the second aerial hit can also catch.
One arguement I would make for gigaflare is that although it's only real optimal use is a shield break punish, sephiroth actually does have good shield break setups. With the right spacing it also combos into f smash killing half the cast at zero. In a vaccum yeah that's not gonna happen but on a character that probably will go for shield breaks it's not bad to have.
I think exploding side kick deserves to be higher than the other Falcon Punch like moves. Yes it is out classed by brawlers other neutral specials, but in a vacuum it's way more practical than the rest of the FPs. Deserving of a C at least.
Personally I’d say Amyr is the best of them and it/ESK are clearly better than the punches, but not enough to compete with the moves in the tier above them. This is already the most individual tiers I’ve ever used in a video lol, I don’t think it needed to be even higher resolution just to separate a handful of moves which are universally not very viable anyways
Little Mac should definitely be higher. Shield cancel means you can up smash out of it, it's basically a better counter, and the buff it gives to Mac's landing disadvantage is insane
Byleth's down B should 100% be in at least C tier. It's one of the best shield break punishes in the game on one of the best shield breakers in the game. It doesn't come up every game but it kills so absurdly early and shield breaks can happen a lot with Byleth even in pro play.
Generally good list! I have 2 slight comments. Judge is actually essentially a 1/8 chance since you can't get the same number twice in a row. Doesn't make much difference though. What _can_ make a difference is something you didn't mention with Lucas's up smash. Because its first frames are invincible, you can actually do a tech where you start the up smash and then cancel it with a jump, getting a few frames of invincibility as a pseudo-parry. Niche and hard to time tbf.
Flare Blitz on shield is hilarious. It's literally so unsafe that you can _punish it on shield with Volcano Kick._ No I'm not kidding, that's literally a true punish and you don't even need to parry or anything. Please stop letting me get away with this move online.
Thing to note about G&W judge: you cannot get the same number twice. While this seems bad at first, in actuality it is great. If you're first judge isn't a 9, then your next judge goes from a 1/9 chance to a 1/8 chance. Also in the last moments of the game #9's probability skyrockets. (Also pirhana plant down b should have definitely been on this list)
In the future, I think the "Big Moves" in the style of Falcon Punch/Amyr can work if they're more moments they can be used in advantageous situations. Say if shield breaks became more common, or there was some super specific way to combo into anything with a startup of 60f or less, or if recoveries were made so predictable that they could be used for edgeguarding/ledgetrapping. Whether or not it's a good idea to implement any of those things in the 1st place, especially just to make these big moves viable in 1v1s, is it's own can of worms. But the option IS there
Fun fact: game and watch's 9 move actually Isnt a 1 In 9 chance rather a 1 In 7 because once a number Is pulled you cannot pull It again because Its placed In a storage system where the last two numbers you pull are stored so you cannot pull them again until you use the move three times to get that first number out of storage and Its why you cannot pull a 1 or 2 when first using It each match since they're the default numbers In store... doesnt make that much a difference since Its still very hard to pull a 9
If you slightly change Kirby's hammer to when there's flames, then you can break full shields. You can also use it as a mixup option on platforms, where it's a guaranteed shield break if they do shield. It also kills exceptionally early, so any copy abilities that can break shield make hammer much better
Also as a Kirby main who’s friends with a puff main, hammer is significantly better in the jigglypuff MU cuz rest punishes + shield breaks instakill puff
Ike is funny because if you charge it to the point you get the second pillar, the main hit box gets much worse. The second and third pillars typically don't break shield. The second and third pillars have sizable blind spots that can miss ledge stalls. The fully charged version also kills something like 20 or 30% after foward smash. Seriously why couldn't that give him his energy shockwave from his game.
Reached the Bowser F-Smash section. Bowser's a secondary of mine who I pull out quite a lot in Singles and Doubles. I've literally never seen that sour spot. I genuinely didn't know that existed. That actually blew my mind lmao. Also for Sephiroth, I'd like to add a couple things, since he's also a character I play alot. I'd personally put his Neutral-B in A or S, just because in context, it's a much bigger punish than D-Tilt, which 2-frames well, but sends them up, and he generally can't do a whole lot with it. Also, D-Air hits people below the ledge, as in they went below the stage and back up, but in every other recovery case, it'll miss. Mega and Gigaflare both are better options there. So because of that, I wouldn't say they have conflicting purposes, since they cover different ledgetrap scenarios. Another thing I see pop up is because they're cancellable, they can bait other options (sadly not very reactable, has to be a read when you have some distance), as well as manipulates your opponent's movement in ledge scenarios. I think it's at least a little better than you give it credit for, but I understand the placement. It does have some glaring flaws.
While it is possible to completely avoid Gigaflare at the ledge with the right timing, that also means you can limit how your opponent gets off the ledge. However another negative aspect is that Sephiroth also has Octaslash and Scintilla for ledge-trapping/edge-guarding, which means that losing Flare might not be a huge deal. EDIT: Also I'm surprised he didn't mention that Gigaflare shieldbreaks can kill at 0, and Sephiroth has downsmash to break shields.
Iirc that was was only the case for its melee iteration (since the system used stored the last two numbers hit (probably a workaround for coding it to be completely random, thanks in part to the fact that melee was developed in only 13 months)), unlike now where it’s actually completely randomly generated and you can actually just land the same number twice in a row
I believe Ike's Eruption is actually strongest if you release it right when you see the twinkle effect instead of changing it all the way, and if you do that it becomes one of the strongest punishes in the game... at least that's the way it was in Brawl and Smash 4, idk if it still works like that in Ultimate
Yo, Little Mac main here You can cancel neutral B into Up Smash by imputing grab and up at the same time Also, Mac has some nasty shield break setup so the full charge is used more often than other moves on this list Imo A tier Great vid btw, love your content
I think saying the dev team should stop adding these or saying they're bad because they're not practical in a 1v1 optimal play competitive environment misunderstands the game entirely. Yeah, they're not POWERFUL but they're FUN, which is far more important. Not just for a casual players but also competitive folk as well, you'll still see some of these moves come up in competitive play if a player is up a stock or two. And at the end of the day, an unbalanced game that's incredibly fun will be better for both a competitive and casual audience then a balanced game that's boring.
Completely agree with you for some moves like Falcon punch, Hatchet Man, or Judge. Not really for Warlock Punch though; not only is it a leftover from Ganon being a Falcon clone from Melee, but it is on a character who really can’t afford getting stuck with a joke neutral b. I don’t mind Ganondorf getting big disrespectful moves, but I wish it was a more unique take or at least a canonically faithful move
@@Sticker_By_NCT_127 Yeah I do agree that leaving him with that is unfortunate given the rest of the character, but I think in general the Warlock Punch is too iconic to get rid of, and I would be really sad to see it go. So I really hope they instead focus on buffing the character (and move) until he's at a reasonable spot rather than simply getting rid of it. Masahiro Sakurai has a design philosophy of really strong upsides paired with really strong downsides and it's one of the things that in my opinion makes Smash Bros so fun to begin with, so I hope he sticks with that instead of just mellowing things out.
I do find it a little weird that Rest wasn’t mentioned at all in this video. Totally get it if your reasoning was because the move comes out basically instantly, but it *is* still a move that does huge damage and knockback (also triggers the blue critical hit screen), and while the startup is nonexistent, the punishability of the move is entirely back-loaded and super devastating for Puff. I guess by that logic though, you’d also need to include moves like Luigi’s Shoryu, and then at that point it’s just a “powerful hits” tier list lol.
One move that comes to mind that I feel could've been included was Dedede Up B, unique being another one of the spike ones and another actual recovery move. I'm not a Dedede player but from I know it breaks shields and I believe there's *some* set ups to make only the bury hitbox hit to allow for some follow ups, but I personally feel like the end lag is probably far too slow to be worth the risk, especially considering how extremely telegraphed it is with a lot of planning needed to go into it. Its a strong spike but I don't know too much about it to see it as more than the spike version of Falcon Punch.
Feel like Skewer should've had a aerial variant where Ridley did the sort of "tail scrape" attack from Brawl where he hovers in place and rakes the ground with his tail spike
I feel like Mario F-Air could be in here. It’s not that big of a move but if Snake F-Air gets in then why wouldn’t Mario’s? It’s slow, it sends to the shadow realm, it’s incredibly satisfying to kill with.
Gotta love a tier list of attacking moves in a fighting game that includes big punches, explosions, psychic energy and massive weapons. And the top of the list is a fart.
The most damning part about byleth down B to me, aside from its extreme slowness, is that its not even her strongest shield break punish. Forward smash is stronger and kills earlier, especially when angled up, and down smash is stronger and more damaging from center stage, so like whats the point? As a character who breaks shields so much, it could've served as a tool to truly capitalize on breaking shields, providing devastating reward, but its not even the best move in byleths kit in that category. Truly a sad, sad move that could've been so much more
@@MrGameguyC I really wouldn't count full charge neutral b since it does have uncharged which I can actually use somewhat effectively, but yeah I see your point. I really wish they actually played around more with how amyr, and more specifically Raging Storm, worked in the actual games. Make it much faster, cut its power hard (I think 16 damage would be reasonable) and make it cancelable on hit. Id give it a sort of lunge, giving byleth an actual movement option. For extra flair, give it a powerful follow up that buries, but make only the first hit cancelable. This would be A. Much cooler to me than just another big charge up move that Byleth ALREADY HAS ON NEUTRAL B, SHE DOESN'T NEED 2. B. Much more practical as it would give her a: New combo starter, a cool bury for nice high% kill confirms, and an actual fucking movement tool. And C. Better representation on how the weapon actually works in the game. Amyr's power is already well demonstrated by down smash and down air. Hell, its a bit of a reach but it could even represent how Edelgard is stronger when it comes to raw force than byleth. Byleth puts so much force into her amyr strikes and really sells the power, but with edelgard in fire emblem, its effortless and still absolutely devastating, so having this be substantially weaker than the other amyr moves would show that, as shes not putting nearly as much force into it.
I love using the villager tree. It demolishes stocks both when growing and fallin. I wasnt expecting it to be on the list but i think it could be. And it is as strong as some of the ones on the list. Bowling ball is good 2.
Flare Blitz is my favorite movie not just in smash specifically, but in any plat fighter. I really love it's death or glory nature, with it being a genuinely good move for tech chases, reading rolls, attacks, or projectiles but with it also being insanely punishable, basically being a stock lost if it hits shield at a high enough percent. The original idea of recoil in Pokemon is translated so well. Every kill I get with it feel amazing, especially if it's a roll read.
For PK Freeze, there's certain characters it is usable against, other which you shouldn't. For example, the Links, DK, Sephiroth, Falcon, Ganon, Ridley, the Spacies, and a couple others it's pretty easy to set up for. But also you can gimp with up b 1 incredibly early, and down smash and f tilt are generally gonna be better if they're near ledge
Honestly I wish this was a design/just based on how much you like the move based tier list instead of a viability based one. These moves are the ones that deserve it
I was fine with KO punch not being in here considering it’s built up passively and is incredibly fast to throw out. Then I saw waft. Disagree with that but also mac’s neutral b is one of his only tools against projectiles so you see it used a lot more than I think you have it credit for. I’d personally put KO punch in S but considering how easy it is to be knocked out I think they both deserve at least A
Same. If Waft is allowed, then that opens it up for more: -Luigi Up-B -Rest -Mac KO Punch -Power Geyser -Buster Wolf -Kazuya F-Smash -Rage Drive -Maybe Pyra F-Smash (if Flame Nova is allowed, there's even a special tip for it)
Side note on kirby: his hammer can actually be charged between the regular and the max out hammer (lets call it stage 2) this hammer still has the double hit on the air but now is on fire, this is capable of killing around 60-70 if hit. This is also a punish for edge jumping. Max out hammer also has armor, which can punish edge jab get up.
I feel like Mythra’s Lightning Buster could definitely go on here too. It’s a powerful move, but compared to some of the other chargeable sword moves like Roy’s and Pyra’s, it doesn’t hit quite as hard. However, on a character like Mythra who lacks immediate power outside of charge f-smash, it’s a valuable option. Light charge LB is a solid combo ender, and its fairly high BKB allows it to kill offstage on certain stages at low percents. Full charge LB is hard to line up, but there are some situational setups into it, and it’s Mythra’s most powerful move at ledge and in tech chase scenarios. It also offers brief invincibility, hits on both sides, has a charge hitbox, and is B reversable, which can make it pretty tricky when combined with Mythra’s speed. Overall, I think it’s a low A to high B tier move. Not quite as useful to Mythra as Flame Nova is to Pyra, but a surprisingly good tool with some utility.
My favorite part of Volcano Kick is that its windbox actually can mess with people airdodging to ledge, so it can suck them onstage to get hit by it if they airdodge up or suck them below ledge for a kill if they airdodge sideways or down.
Something you didnt mention about shieldbreaker is that it has a headshot property. It deals more damage when it hits and opponents' head hurtbox, allowing for easier shieldbreaks. It does not deal increased knockback though.
I highly doubt nintendo will stop putting these types of moves on characters, because nintendo clearly tries to appeal more to the casual side of the game rather than the competitive side, and I think these moves are great for casual play, bad for competitive play (I'm a byleth main, and I use both Amyr and Failnaught a lot and with skill, they actually hit often, though probably cause I dont fight against tournament strength players)
I was a kind of surprised Dedede's Up B isn't on the list. I know it's mainly used as a recovery move and that is definitely its purpose but it kind of fills the criteria of big, slow hard hitting move and there are some nasty setups for it plus one of the strongest burry effects in the game.
it'd be pretty cool if Falcon Punch were actually one of Captain Falcon's more viable edgeguard moves, specifically because then you'd have players scrambling to reenact that anime scene where Captain Falcon jumps in, drops a Falcon Punch, and dies in the process
ik im hella late, but as a villager player the reason tree is allowed to be so strong is bc it takes forever to set up, its slow to come out even if you ignore that you can frontload actually growing the tree, and the opponent can kinda just avoid it or even worse counter/reflect it. also the tree is on a timer, which is made much shorter by your opponent hitting it
My favorite forbidden elite smash technique is double flair blitz on someone shielding on the ledge. See, when returning to the edge bouncing off shield and then double jump will let you do it again and in elite smash no one would see it coming. The advanced version is the triple flair blitz were after you land the double flair blitz you jump on stage and tech chase them across the stage with a third flair blitz and since the opponent is so shocked at being hit by the double flair blitz they are not ready for you flying across the stage at them. This would knock them off stage leading them to be vulnerable to and edge guard by the QUADRUPEDAL-
What about G&W's Oil Panic? It's one of the hardest hitting moves in the game and takes time to set up. Was it excluded because it relies on the opponent's moves to become available?
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Thanks for watching! This was a fun tier list to do but one with a lot of room for interpretation, what did you think? Also a few notes, some taken from comments:
-Giant Punch: I said this is quicker than DK's fair, which _technically_ comes out faster, but also starts above DK's head so functionally it does work out that way. I had this in my notes but forgot to bring it up at the time. I also said that you can't B-reverse it, and to clarify, I was talking about the charge during that segment. I'm aware you can B-reverse the punch itself.
-"What about Kazuya's forward smash?" This is the most common one I've been asked about and in this case I actually agree it could've been on here. I considered it and rejected it when making the shortlist, but given how the tier list ended up looking overall, I think its speed-to-power ratio would justify a slot.
-"What about Jigglypuff's Rest?" While I know there's some "slowness" built into it in the sense that it's very risky to miss, I don't think a frame 2 move belongs on this list.
-"What about Little Mac's KO Punch?" Again it's very quick, and while you can certainly make the argument that it's a move that charges up, it's not available during the charge. Going by the rationale of dividing moves into their distinct stages I used, it doesn't fit, it's either not there at all or available instantly. Waft avoided this treatment because it's always available to use.
-"Why didn't you mention Sephiroth's shield breaks?" I thought I'd demonstrated awareness of that through the Gigaflare -> forward smash combo shown in his section, but in retrospect I admit this probably didn't get the point across especially well and I could have mentioned that use case more explicitly. With videos like this I really can't cover every possible use for every possible move, but considering I mentioned shield break setups for several other characters, Sephiroth should have been included in that camp.
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Maybe I missed it if you did, but if not you should have mentioned that charged Giant Punch is also extremely safe on shield (-6 with that pushback is ridiculous for the reward it has), is such a good move even to throw out because even if it is shielded or misses the risk of being punished is barely there
surprised there was no TNT on the list
Ummm... you do know that pressing 2 jump buttons simultaneously in Ultimate results in a short hop right? "I don't miss short hops" WHO DOES???
I kind of implied this by saying it’s DK’s surrogate forward air, but you’re right, that would’ve been good to mention directly
I actually find double-pressing jump significantly less reliable for short hops in most circumstances lol
I think my favorite fun fact about Failnaught is that when Kirby gets a character's Neutral B, he gets a 1.2x damage multiplier so now a fully charged Failnaught DOES break sheilds
Gotta love when someone else using your own move does better than you.
@@Rogeryoo Sakurai's favoritism at work; I didn't even know that.
@@toxic_revenant3 not favoritized enough to make him better than D tier
@@toxic_revenant3 yeah
He mentioned it in the pyra Mythra showcase. He said that because Kirby “has to go through the trouble” of copying the move by inhaling the opponent and because he doesn’t get to pick what move he gets, he deserves the handicap
Which one is failnaught?
As a puff main, the sound of rest connecting and all other moves with the same noise (Luigi down taunt, G&W 9 ect.) Just invokes a primal feeling inside of me
i was so surprised rest wasn't in here!! i know its not, like, PHYSICALLY big but it's the king of strong, unsafe moves
@@heliodorable4612 prob cuz it's fast
@@salvatore_slate yeah so is the release of snake fsmash
the OG big move sound effect
As a Jigglypuff hater (though Jigglypuff is admittedly not my true least favorite in Smash) Im glad that rest wasnt in there. Even if it was, it would be D tier at best. It's so difficult to land and the punishment for missing is more severe than getting falcon-punched offstage. Though, at the same time, Hero's hatchet man should be higher since it's faster than many other big hits, instantly breaks shields and is just devastating as a whole.
Fun tip for Ike’s eruption:
Charge it with the opponent on ledge standing in the spot just in front of their roll distance. People will try to roll through you and not realize the hitbox goes behind you as well, and if they stay on ledge or neutral get-up you can hit them with the fully charged pillars. Only works once a game but it’s funny as hell
Yes I love doing this
I just take advantage of the move's verticality, as the first pillar reaches high and doesn't lose power.
@@wingedbluj1674 That’s also a good part about it
Pyra’s Flame Nova isn’t actually safe on shield on average for one reason: you can spotdodge the hits, even fully charged. The multihits are timed too far apart and don’t put you in enough shield lag, meaning if you know the timing, you can always spotdodge the last hit and punish her harder with it, and the timing’s not exactly hard to adapt to either
I say on average, though, because Pyra can also line herself right inside shields where both sides of the multihits will hit shield, which not only makes spotdodging much harder to time, but will actually break shields in full health. The spacing is specific but even slightly charged it can do some good shield damage
I don’t think this’ll change placings; I just think Flame Nova’s just more complicated to use on shield, which still doesn’t take away how fast it is and how much it helps mixes up her recovery
This is fair and something I actually originally brought up last time I talked about Flame Nova (in my PJiggles reaction video), but I ended up cutting that part because I was having a _lot_ of trouble finding even a single example of someone doing this in a tournament environment. That admittedly will change over time and was still probably worth mentioning anyways, good point!
It still feels safer than it should be.
Let's not forget that today (when I'm writing this) is Smash Ultimate's birthday, at least the NA release
How old is it? Like 4 years?
@@0yaSumi6908 yep
@@0yaSumi6908 wow, I was a freshman in high school…now I’m still a freshman, but in college
@@DoMorrMusic I was a Sophomore in High school and now I'm a Sophomore in college
Wow. People who were born at the time of its released are now starting high school 😓 really makes you think...
I've two-framed someone with Luigi's down taunt and they teched it... Roller coaster of emotions in the span of half a second
Side note on DK's giant punch: The charge cannot be B-reversed, but the punch itself can
Pretty sure that I have seen some DK b reverse with the charge
@@pabloestelles2134 You can turnaround special it, but not B reverse it
@@pabloestelles2134 Thank you for saying it, I was looking for this comment
Donkey Punch
@@namenamename390 Thank you! I immediately came to the comments wondering if people corrected him haha
One thing you missed about Lucas’s up smash is that at the start of it, Lucas gains 7 frames of invincibility (not intangibility), 4 when charging, and 3 immediately after releasing.
YEAH i always think he seriously underestimates this move, it's an absolute beast and protects lucas on all sides. you just never see it because lucas is a pretty unpopular character nowadays
I liked to just pull it out at random sometimes to catch enemies off guard, grounded or aerial. The connector hits at the start are great for that kind of use lol
He did mention it though, it's just not enough to make the move "good". The top things in competitive play are consistency and whiff safety. Lucas up-smash has neither considering the huge startup/end lag. The I-frames are just a nice touch so that it's not AS bad as it could be
It's amazing how Byleth can nearly do TWO Aymrs in the time it takes to do ONE fully charged Failnaught
The time it takes Byleth to *FINISH* Aymr's *ENTIRE* non-cancelable animation two times over is 8 frames faster than the time it takes him to *FIRE* two fully charged Failnaught arrows.
Let that sink in for a second.
One thing about mac’s straight thats worth noting is that you can jumpsquat cancel into it out of a dash, which is faster than shielding out of a dash. Since the armor is frame 1 on straight lunge, it can make some matchups more tolerable for mac. Still, i understand your placement for it.
if mac players put this much effort into another character theyd be top 100 haha
Straight Lunge's armor also invalidates half of Sora's moveset.
@@wingedbluj1674 all the multihit stuff like nair and fair?
@@wingedbluj1674 fancy seeing you here
I always love how happy you are when you talk about King Dedede. He really is just that charming of a character that even his faults make him fun. 🤣
Yee, i main dedede although I know he’s not great as a character competitively he’s got a lot going for him, he’s also just so fun to play hence why he’s my main
King Dedede truly is perfect.
Lucario's force palm is so close to being good and/or big move
It's also one of the moves I enjoy more in the game
Force Palm is actually the reason I went with "Big Moves" rather than "Blue Screen Moves" which I was also considering for the theme. Idk why a relatively straightforward command grab gets the same VFX as Falcon Punch lol
To be fair, it only does the blue screen when lucario is at higher aura and it does big damage/knockback. At mid to lower aura, there's no blue screen effect.
@@ericeasley7633 Right, but at high Aura a lot of Lucario's moves do big damage and knockback haha
@@MockRockTalk but blue screen = cool. do lucario's other moves have that? no. easy S tier
Random Fact: In Super Smash Flash 2, Force Palm spikes if you connect in mid-air.
Is it Practical? No.
Is it funny? Yes.
I think my favorite use of DK's Giant Punch is the fact that you can turn it around while you're offstage and then cancel it so you can just spam back airs while trying to get back to stage. It gives the move utility in his recovery which is an aspect of Donkey Kong's play that definitely could use the help to say the least. Even outside of that, Giant Punch is probably one of his best moves and one of the best neutral specials in the game in my opinion.
His only other great move is backair. Everything else besides forward throw and upair is not great.
@@stephenrichter8940 up-b, dash attack, and all his tilts are really good, all better than giant punch imo
@@crooker23 giant punch kills at insanely early percents, has several moves that true combo into it, if you time it with a jump, you can b reverse with the charge, the armor can tank freaking doriah, and it is literally safe on parry
But also, dash attack can technically be -1 if you're really good and get a guaranteed jab that shield pokes. I forgot to mention that his down be might be the best spike in the game besides maybe Kirby's if you include the combos you get off it, the fact it's only like -4 on shield, and that it actually will spike at 0 which can quickly cheese Little Mac, Belmont's, Roy, or Pithra
@@crooker23 Up tilt is quite mediocre, being minus on hit at early percents and all. Forward tilt is above average but it's lack of kill power prevents it from being great and up B is too slow to use frequently on the ground and exploitable in the air. Dash attack and down tilt are really great though.
@@thehuman2cs715 agree on all that, still would have giant punch under all those tho, except maybe uptilt
One thing I'd like to add about Whack: The thread of the insta kill is often more useful than the insta kill itself. You won't often land Whack in the areas that Thwack can't already cover (i.e. at long range).
However, it functions well as a slow moving projectile that stays out very long to pressure an area. Nobody is going to chance an instant death, so by throwing it out, you force you opponent to either jump or shield, which Hero can punish if he runs with the projectile.
I don't think this impacts Whack's placement in the tier list, but it is an important part of the move that I missed during its section in the video.
Wait most people dont just run through it because it does like 3 percent I think less
@@ashmyoshi3912 it has a chance to just kill you, who in their right mind would run directly through that?
@@ashmyoshi3912 it does 1%
i prefer the point black use of it because it's unreactable fast funny "touch of death" .
Also being such a weak projectile it gets destroyed by ANY hitbox that collides with it (like a link nair) so most if not all characters can easily beat it, but most players have 0 experience and prefer not to risk a misinput
I think Dedede's up special should have been on this list. It's not the easiest to land, but when it does, you really feel it. Not to mention it's also one of the most satisfying spikes in the game. The spike hitbox is easier to land thanks to Gordo set ups.
not big enough😢
49:15 the thing is, you're only thinking of it as a competitive game. They're not goint to stop making these moves because they are fun and funny outside of competitive play (and even in competetive play when they appear)
As someone who believes that Smash can and should strike a balance between competitive and casual play, I couldn't agree more. I actually love Amyr and Ive gotten a surprisingly large number of kills off it, I think Amyr is actually one of the better moves on the list.
it's easy and possible especially for such a creative team of developers, to make good big moves that work both casually and competitively.
Just give them a weaker uncharged version or some other useful aspect
While this is valid for most of them, this excuse is nonsense for Ganondorf. FSmash can do what UTilt and Warlock Punch do, but way better. He has no reason to be stuck with two useless AND obsolete moves that don't even have anything to do with the source games. They aren't even a part of his identity as Falcondorf, nobody ever bothers with them outside of shield breaks.
I was thinking the same thing. If you play TOO competitively it takes away the fun of the game. And even if they suck competitive players will still use it because of the HYPE factor. They're just satisfying to land.
Yeah, calling Falcon Punch, the most iconic move in the series, a waste of a moveslot is missing the point.
I would’ve put in Kazuya’s fsmash here. Sweetspot causes zoom and is incredibly powerful (sakurai himself said sweetspot is comparable to a falcon punch in power), sourspot also plenty strong but also clearly weaker, only a couple of frames slower than bowser fsmash and a couple of frames faster than ganon’s respectively. Being a finisher off of electric or demon god fist alone makes it plenty practical too although the timing can be more strict than continuing a combo until another finisher like upsmash, bair, upb or dragon upper will also confirm, and it’s use as a finisher is simultaneously more cast and/or di dependent than upsmash, bair, up b off electric and dragon upper off dgf, all of which are pretty universal. But, there are points in its favor over competitors off electric against certain cast members, di, percents etc. For example when close to the ledge against fastfallers/big bodies, even sourspot fsmash will kill earlier than any other option he has, much less a sweetspot even at center stage, which at middleish percents you can get against most of the cast as long as you’re positioned correctly. I’d compare it with flare blitz when Zard puts you in a techchase; could you do something less risky and rack up more damage and position yourself for a much easier kill later? Probably. But there are several scenarios where if you know, you just know. And for both of these moves it’s in scenarios where you put your opponent in position to get hit and have much less options to avoid them, unlike a lot of these other big moves where it’s just reads or hoping your opponent fucks up.
There is an argument for dragon upper to be here also but I just think the risk reward ratio isn’t comparable to fsmash, imo. Where I think a lot of characters would get use out of upper, what with s and all, really only Kaz can make good use out of fsmash.
Sadly for Kazuya all his attacks lack impact, they lack that “oomph” that makes you feel the hit is actually strong and satisfying to land. It always feels like the character on the receiving end is being pulled off of stage by an external force.
@@AarturoSc ...does it? F smash in particular help with that argument because of the zoom in
I'm the low impact makes all of the hitstop moves he has that more brutal.
IIRC In the showcase, Sakurai showed that a fully charged Kazuya F Smash would kill at like 20%. Idk if they changed that though, but if they haven't, then it absolutely deserves it.
Kazuya Fsmash and Dragon Uppercut need to be here. The fuck do you guys mean no "oomph" factor, have you ever landed either of these moves in neutral, Fsmash kills at like 15% on non heavies and Dragon Uppercut kills pretty fast too.
I feel like the peanut guns explosion is a punishment for bad choices in play. It has horrendous end lag because the Diddy Kong player shouldn't have held down the button for too long, but the other player gets hit with damage and knock back equal to a forward smash because you saw Diddy pop out the gun and hold it longer then a falcon punch yet still get hit.
34:31 one usage case that wasn't mentioned that i feel helps the move out is gigaflare as a shield break punish, since you can actually buffer a forward smash after releasing it and have a pretty damn good chance of killing your opponent at 0%. i know "its a good shield break punish" applies to a lot of this list so it cant be thought of as being too much of a selling point, however in the context of sephiroths kit i feel it benefits a lot from the fact that he can fish for shield breaks with stuff like down smash or just get them through things like shadow flare hits > ftilt on a damaged shield. great video as always man, keep up the good work
A couple things I wanna say about Game & Watch's Judge is that it's actually a 1 in 8 chance, as you can't get the same number twice in a row -and also apparently if you're losing, in the last 5 seconds of the match your chances to get a 9 get boosted massively but that's besides the point-
I'd also argue that 6 is also a pretty good number to pull; it kills at around 150% (as opposed to the 500% that most other Judge numbers do in the chart it has in its wiki page) and is a semi-spike so it sends at a pretty evil angle that you can capitalize on or just kill someone that has a bad recovery outright.
A 9 kills significantly earlier, in the single digits, and G&W also probably has way better ways to kill you at 150%, but if you wanna style on your opponent or something, a 6 isn't all that bad so you roughly have 1/3rd of numbers worth pulling
G&W has so many easy and reliable setups into Judge that i often lands 9 at least once in tournament set (thinking maister in BO5)
26:56 What do you mean, the sourspot is LITERALLY the only thing keeping that move from snapping the game’s balance in two, why else would the Discord Kirby mains claim it’s better than his dair lol
Luigi deserves extra points, since if you do land a taunt spike kill your opponent is required to SD immediately
It’s insane that mock rock talks, what a great creator
Definitely one of the talkers of all time
The absolute talks, he never mocks rocks!
Jigglypuff rest always felt like a big move to me, i dont know if im the only one who feels that way. It not slow at all but it still has the commitment factor to it, and everytime it's used, its very hype and hits hard.
I was lowkey surprised when jigglypuff wasnt on this list
@@beecatcher7829 the guy missed a lot of moves then
Yeah
Duh.
Too fast
Other characters:does some charge up
Luigi: J U M P
Im surprised D3s big sit up b wasnt considered a beeg move. Easily his funniest move.
Also one thing to mention about jet hammer is that against characters with attackable projectiles or specifically olimar’s pikmen, the hammer hitbox stays out for way longer bc it pauses for every entity hit. There’s a ton of jank against olimar and you can get a few fairly well charged hammers off against him bc the pikmen leave him a sitting duck against it
A niche part of Dededes Jet Hammer is that the strongest part isn't at the self damage level, its the MOMENT before. Theres a small window where the move is absurdly strong if you time it right
Flaming sidekick is done real a disservice here, especially when its argued that it's worse than Amyr. Unlike Amyr, the move has negligible end lag, which is an absolute game changer for this type of move.
This, combined with its armor, makes it so fishing for surprise hits with this move is surprisingly viable. Obviously Mii brawlers other moves are better, but I would consider this move way better than a lot of moves in C tier.
Speaking of C tier, Judge is guaranteed to not roll the last number you rolled. Meaning you can fish for a 2 or a 1, then have 1/8 chance of the move rolling a 9, and a 7/8 chance of at least hitting your opponent hard enough for the move to be safe.
The worst part about brawler's exploding side kick is that it's not even a good shield break punish. Fully charged forward smash kills earlier
It wasn't covered but one of the things about Magic Burst is that if you have less than half MP it doesn't really kill that insanely well. It also doesn't last as long, so you can't ensure it hits ledge.
As a kirby main. I actually get some utility off of Hammer flip. The move is Trash to use in disadvantage or neutral, but as a ledgetrapping option, it is actually really good, especially when a lot of people jump off ledge againt kirby. When people jump off ledge just jump and hammer, the second aerial hit can also catch.
wouldn't you be able to just use an aerial and thats better?
One arguement I would make for gigaflare is that although it's only real optimal use is a shield break punish, sephiroth actually does have good shield break setups. With the right spacing it also combos into f smash killing half the cast at zero. In a vaccum yeah that's not gonna happen but on a character that probably will go for shield breaks it's not bad to have.
indeed, it's the best shieldbreak punish
I think an “All Hero Moves Tierlist” video would be a cool idea :D
I think exploding side kick deserves to be higher than the other Falcon Punch like moves. Yes it is out classed by brawlers other neutral specials, but in a vacuum it's way more practical than the rest of the FPs. Deserving of a C at least.
Personally I’d say Amyr is the best of them and it/ESK are clearly better than the punches, but not enough to compete with the moves in the tier above them. This is already the most individual tiers I’ve ever used in a video lol, I don’t think it needed to be even higher resolution just to separate a handful of moves which are universally not very viable anyways
The other problem with ESK is that it's not brawlers best shield break punish, fsmash kills earlier when fully charged
“The first axe special move” F for Simon and Richter neutral B
Little Mac should definitely be higher. Shield cancel means you can up smash out of it, it's basically a better counter, and the buff it gives to Mac's landing disadvantage is insane
It's better than he gave it credit for, but its purpose as a landing aid is highly matchup-specific.
The way you perfectly mirrored the pro clip at 44:25 was super cool and really nice attention to detail
“The first axe special move in smash”
Simon and Richter in the corner:
Byleth's down B should 100% be in at least C tier. It's one of the best shield break punishes in the game on one of the best shield breakers in the game. It doesn't come up every game but it kills so absurdly early and shield breaks can happen a lot with Byleth even in pro play.
At 46:07, Fox scratches Ganondorf's balls.
Generally good list! I have 2 slight comments.
Judge is actually essentially a 1/8 chance since you can't get the same number twice in a row. Doesn't make much difference though.
What _can_ make a difference is something you didn't mention with Lucas's up smash. Because its first frames are invincible, you can actually do a tech where you start the up smash and then cancel it with a jump, getting a few frames of invincibility as a pseudo-parry. Niche and hard to time tbf.
It does make a difference though. 1/8 is still better than 1/9.
Flare Blitz on shield is hilarious. It's literally so unsafe that you can _punish it on shield with Volcano Kick._ No I'm not kidding, that's literally a true punish and you don't even need to parry or anything. Please stop letting me get away with this move online.
Thing to note about G&W judge: you cannot get the same number twice. While this seems bad at first, in actuality it is great. If you're first judge isn't a 9, then your next judge goes from a 1/9 chance to a 1/8 chance. Also in the last moments of the game #9's probability skyrockets.
(Also pirhana plant down b should have definitely been on this list)
In the future, I think the "Big Moves" in the style of Falcon Punch/Amyr can work if they're more moments they can be used in advantageous situations. Say if shield breaks became more common, or there was some super specific way to combo into anything with a startup of 60f or less, or if recoveries were made so predictable that they could be used for edgeguarding/ledgetrapping. Whether or not it's a good idea to implement any of those things in the 1st place, especially just to make these big moves viable in 1v1s, is it's own can of worms. But the option IS there
or big moves should have a weak usable uncharged variant. That way they don't waste a move slot. Or at least be cancellable but that's not as good
Fun fact: game and watch's 9 move actually Isnt a 1 In 9 chance rather a 1 In 7 because once a number Is pulled you cannot pull It again because Its placed In a storage system where the last two numbers you pull are stored so you cannot pull them again until you use the move three times to get that first number out of storage and Its why you cannot pull a 1 or 2 when first using It each match since they're the default numbers In store... doesnt make that much a difference since Its still very hard to pull a 9
sponsor ends at 1:37
22:17 "I think it may be the biggest hitbox in the game." *Peach Blossom has joined the chat*
*Triforce of Wisdom has joined the chat*
big hero has joined the chat
Rosalina's gravity pull with Villager's tree (er, Gravitree?) is also probably close to that...
If you slightly change Kirby's hammer to when there's flames, then you can break full shields. You can also use it as a mixup option on platforms, where it's a guaranteed shield break if they do shield. It also kills exceptionally early, so any copy abilities that can break shield make hammer much better
Also you can move your opponent closer to the side while charging in shield break situations cuz you can move while charging
Also as a Kirby main who’s friends with a puff main, hammer is significantly better in the jigglypuff MU cuz rest punishes + shield breaks instakill puff
Ike is funny because if you charge it to the point you get the second pillar, the main hit box gets much worse. The second and third pillars typically don't break shield. The second and third pillars have sizable blind spots that can miss ledge stalls. The fully charged version also kills something like 20 or 30% after foward smash. Seriously why couldn't that give him his energy shockwave from his game.
Reached the Bowser F-Smash section. Bowser's a secondary of mine who I pull out quite a lot in Singles and Doubles.
I've literally never seen that sour spot. I genuinely didn't know that existed. That actually blew my mind lmao.
Also for Sephiroth, I'd like to add a couple things, since he's also a character I play alot. I'd personally put his Neutral-B in A or S, just because in context, it's a much bigger punish than D-Tilt, which 2-frames well, but sends them up, and he generally can't do a whole lot with it. Also, D-Air hits people below the ledge, as in they went below the stage and back up, but in every other recovery case, it'll miss. Mega and Gigaflare both are better options there. So because of that, I wouldn't say they have conflicting purposes, since they cover different ledgetrap scenarios. Another thing I see pop up is because they're cancellable, they can bait other options (sadly not very reactable, has to be a read when you have some distance), as well as manipulates your opponent's movement in ledge scenarios. I think it's at least a little better than you give it credit for, but I understand the placement. It does have some glaring flaws.
While it is possible to completely avoid Gigaflare at the ledge with the right timing, that also means you can limit how your opponent gets off the ledge.
However another negative aspect is that Sephiroth also has Octaslash and Scintilla for ledge-trapping/edge-guarding, which means that losing Flare might not be a huge deal.
EDIT: Also I'm surprised he didn't mention that Gigaflare shieldbreaks can kill at 0, and Sephiroth has downsmash to break shields.
Kazuya's fsmash should be on this list, it's absurdly strong and has comparable frame data to several other moves on here.
minor, but Game and Watch's judge has a 1 in 7 chance of getting any number other than your previous two since you cant get your last two numbers
Iirc that was was only the case for its melee iteration (since the system used stored the last two numbers hit (probably a workaround for coding it to be completely random, thanks in part to the fact that melee was developed in only 13 months)), unlike now where it’s actually completely randomly generated and you can actually just land the same number twice in a row
I believe Ike's Eruption is actually strongest if you release it right when you see the twinkle effect instead of changing it all the way, and if you do that it becomes one of the strongest punishes in the game... at least that's the way it was in Brawl and Smash 4, idk if it still works like that in Ultimate
Did not expect to see you here, love the music reviews, can’t wait for the top 100 from best to worst of this year!
Yo, Little Mac main here
You can cancel neutral B into Up Smash by imputing grab and up at the same time
Also, Mac has some nasty shield break setup so the full charge is used more often than other moves on this list
Imo A tier
Great vid btw, love your content
I think saying the dev team should stop adding these or saying they're bad because they're not practical in a 1v1 optimal play competitive environment misunderstands the game entirely. Yeah, they're not POWERFUL but they're FUN, which is far more important. Not just for a casual players but also competitive folk as well, you'll still see some of these moves come up in competitive play if a player is up a stock or two. And at the end of the day, an unbalanced game that's incredibly fun will be better for both a competitive and casual audience then a balanced game that's boring.
Completely agree with you for some moves like Falcon punch, Hatchet Man, or Judge. Not really for Warlock Punch though; not only is it a leftover from Ganon being a Falcon clone from Melee, but it is on a character who really can’t afford getting stuck with a joke neutral b. I don’t mind Ganondorf getting big disrespectful moves, but I wish it was a more unique take or at least a canonically faithful move
@@Sticker_By_NCT_127 Yeah I do agree that leaving him with that is unfortunate given the rest of the character, but I think in general the Warlock Punch is too iconic to get rid of, and I would be really sad to see it go. So I really hope they instead focus on buffing the character (and move) until he's at a reasonable spot rather than simply getting rid of it.
Masahiro Sakurai has a design philosophy of really strong upsides paired with really strong downsides and it's one of the things that in my opinion makes Smash Bros so fun to begin with, so I hope he sticks with that instead of just mellowing things out.
I do find it a little weird that Rest wasn’t mentioned at all in this video. Totally get it if your reasoning was because the move comes out basically instantly, but it *is* still a move that does huge damage and knockback (also triggers the blue critical hit screen), and while the startup is nonexistent, the punishability of the move is entirely back-loaded and super devastating for Puff. I guess by that logic though, you’d also need to include moves like Luigi’s Shoryu, and then at that point it’s just a “powerful hits” tier list lol.
Yeah, you pretty much hit the nail on the head there
rest is a sell of its former self :(
One move that comes to mind that I feel could've been included was Dedede Up B, unique being another one of the spike ones and another actual recovery move. I'm not a Dedede player but from I know it breaks shields and I believe there's *some* set ups to make only the bury hitbox hit to allow for some follow ups, but I personally feel like the end lag is probably far too slow to be worth the risk, especially considering how extremely telegraphed it is with a lot of planning needed to go into it. Its a strong spike but I don't know too much about it to see it as more than the spike version of Falcon Punch.
one of the best usecases is as a beefy UP B
No way he included diddy neutral b but not rest
29:38 small side note: Kirby’s full charged hammer can hit ledge for most if not all ledge hangs.
Feel like Skewer should've had a aerial variant where Ridley did the sort of "tail scrape" attack from Brawl where he hovers in place and rakes the ground with his tail spike
PK thunder 2 is actually called PK thunder tackle
I feel like Mario F-Air could be in here. It’s not that big of a move but if Snake F-Air gets in then why wouldn’t Mario’s? It’s slow, it sends to the shadow realm, it’s incredibly satisfying to kill with.
Apparently, Thwack is also a projectile. Had it reflected multiple times.
it can also be absorbed, it's an energy projectile
Video idea: Ranking every spike in the game.
I honestly wish that Kirby’s hammer just did good dmg or at least charged fast
Where's Corrin's neutral special? Or even her counter but her neutral special seems big to me??
One interesting thing about Gigaflare is that Sepiroth has shield break setups and it is his best shield break option
Gotta love a tier list of attacking moves in a fighting game that includes big punches, explosions, psychic energy and massive weapons.
And the top of the list is a fart.
isn't Judge a 1 in 8, because it can't roll the same number twice in a row?
You can tell he wanted to put every single move in this list in F tier
The most damning part about byleth down B to me, aside from its extreme slowness, is that its not even her strongest shield break punish. Forward smash is stronger and kills earlier, especially when angled up, and down smash is stronger and more damaging from center stage, so like whats the point? As a character who breaks shields so much, it could've served as a tool to truly capitalize on breaking shields, providing devastating reward, but its not even the best move in byleths kit in that category. Truly a sad, sad move that could've been so much more
Yep, Byleth is bascially playing with one less move.
1 & half if you consider Fully Charged Neutral B.
@@MrGameguyC I really wouldn't count full charge neutral b since it does have uncharged which I can actually use somewhat effectively, but yeah I see your point. I really wish they actually played around more with how amyr, and more specifically Raging Storm, worked in the actual games. Make it much faster, cut its power hard (I think 16 damage would be reasonable) and make it cancelable on hit. Id give it a sort of lunge, giving byleth an actual movement option. For extra flair, give it a powerful follow up that buries, but make only the first hit cancelable. This would be
A. Much cooler to me than just another big charge up move that Byleth ALREADY HAS ON NEUTRAL B, SHE DOESN'T NEED 2.
B. Much more practical as it would give her a: New combo starter, a cool bury for nice high% kill confirms, and an actual fucking movement tool.
And C. Better representation on how the weapon actually works in the game. Amyr's power is already well demonstrated by down smash and down air. Hell, its a bit of a reach but it could even represent how Edelgard is stronger when it comes to raw force than byleth. Byleth puts so much force into her amyr strikes and really sells the power, but with edelgard in fire emblem, its effortless and still absolutely devastating, so having this be substantially weaker than the other amyr moves would show that, as shes not putting nearly as much force into it.
Id say that terrys power geyser is a big move. Its basically ganon fsmash, but big bigger hitbox and sends up.
Judge's 3 does actual stupid shield damage, giving it some utility imo
I love using the villager tree. It demolishes stocks both when growing and fallin. I wasnt expecting it to be on the list but i think it could be. And it is as strong as some of the ones on the list.
Bowling ball is good 2.
Flare Blitz is my favorite movie not just in smash specifically, but in any plat fighter.
I really love it's death or glory nature, with it being a genuinely good move for tech chases, reading rolls, attacks, or projectiles but with it also being insanely punishable, basically being a stock lost if it hits shield at a high enough percent.
The original idea of recoil in Pokemon is translated so well. Every kill I get with it feel amazing, especially if it's a roll read.
4:49 not related to the video’s topic at all but it’s always cool when a local you attend is featured on videos like these.
Great video.
I think Kazuya's forward smash on sweet spot should have deserved a spot on the list but perhaps it's not slow enough?
My 2 favourite moves are in F tier as I expected Volcano Kick and Warlock Punch
46:00 fox gives Ganon‘s balls a tickle
For PK Freeze, there's certain characters it is usable against, other which you shouldn't. For example, the Links, DK, Sephiroth, Falcon, Ganon, Ridley, the Spacies, and a couple others it's pretty easy to set up for. But also you can gimp with up b 1 incredibly early, and down smash and f tilt are generally gonna be better if they're near ledge
Honestly I wish this was a design/just based on how much you like the move based tier list instead of a viability based one. These moves are the ones that deserve it
I was fine with KO punch not being in here considering it’s built up passively and is incredibly fast to throw out. Then I saw waft. Disagree with that but also mac’s neutral b is one of his only tools against projectiles so you see it used a lot more than I think you have it credit for. I’d personally put KO punch in S but considering how easy it is to be knocked out I think they both deserve at least A
Same.
If Waft is allowed, then that opens it up for more:
-Luigi Up-B
-Rest
-Mac KO Punch
-Power Geyser
-Buster Wolf
-Kazuya F-Smash
-Rage Drive
-Maybe Pyra F-Smash (if Flame Nova is allowed, there's even a special tip for it)
Your videos are so good, always so excited to watch a new one once they drop
Side note on kirby: his hammer can actually be charged between the regular and the max out hammer (lets call it stage 2) this hammer still has the double hit on the air but now is on fire, this is capable of killing around 60-70 if hit. This is also a punish for edge jumping.
Max out hammer also has armor, which can punish edge jab get up.
Game and Watch 3 does a bunch of shield damage. Definitely not bad especially compared to the others
Lucas's up smash is slow enough that ddd fsmash can punish it out of shield. I still love it though, especially using it as a parry
I feel like Mythra’s Lightning Buster could definitely go on here too. It’s a powerful move, but compared to some of the other chargeable sword moves like Roy’s and Pyra’s, it doesn’t hit quite as hard. However, on a character like Mythra who lacks immediate power outside of charge f-smash, it’s a valuable option.
Light charge LB is a solid combo ender, and its fairly high BKB allows it to kill offstage on certain stages at low percents. Full charge LB is hard to line up, but there are some situational setups into it, and it’s Mythra’s most powerful move at ledge and in tech chase scenarios. It also offers brief invincibility, hits on both sides, has a charge hitbox, and is B reversable, which can make it pretty tricky when combined with Mythra’s speed.
Overall, I think it’s a low A to high B tier move. Not quite as useful to Mythra as Flame Nova is to Pyra, but a surprisingly good tool with some utility.
Okay but counter point to moves like Falcon punch.
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Funni
I feel like Pichu's fully charged side-b shoulda been here too
My favorite part of Volcano Kick is that its windbox actually can mess with people airdodging to ledge, so it can suck them onstage to get hit by it if they airdodge up or suck them below ledge for a kill if they airdodge sideways or down.
Something you didnt mention about shieldbreaker is that it has a headshot property. It deals more damage when it hits and opponents' head hurtbox, allowing for easier shieldbreaks. It does not deal increased knockback though.
He did mention that actually... 41:50
@@lasercraft32 mb lol
I highly doubt nintendo will stop putting these types of moves on characters, because nintendo clearly tries to appeal more to the casual side of the game rather than the competitive side, and I think these moves are great for casual play, bad for competitive play (I'm a byleth main, and I use both Amyr and Failnaught a lot and with skill, they actually hit often, though probably cause I dont fight against tournament strength players)
I was a kind of surprised Dedede's Up B isn't on the list. I know it's mainly used as a recovery move and that is definitely its purpose but it kind of fills the criteria of big, slow hard hitting move and there are some nasty setups for it plus one of the strongest burry effects in the game.
Talking about Ymir: "The first axe special move in Smash."
Villager, Simon, Richter: "Am I a joke to you?"
it'd be pretty cool if Falcon Punch were actually one of Captain Falcon's more viable edgeguard moves, specifically because then you'd have players scrambling to reenact that anime scene where Captain Falcon jumps in, drops a Falcon Punch, and dies in the process
ik im hella late, but as a villager player the reason tree is allowed to be so strong is bc it takes forever to set up, its slow to come out even if you ignore that you can frontload actually growing the tree, and the opponent can kinda just avoid it or even worse counter/reflect it.
also the tree is on a timer, which is made much shorter by your opponent hitting it
46:06 DEMONETIZED
My favorite forbidden elite smash technique is double flair blitz on someone shielding on the ledge. See, when returning to the edge bouncing off shield and then double jump will let you do it again and in elite smash no one would see it coming. The advanced version is the triple flair blitz were after you land the double flair blitz you jump on stage and tech chase them across the stage with a third flair blitz and since the opponent is so shocked at being hit by the double flair blitz they are not ready for you flying across the stage at them. This would knock them off stage leading them to be vulnerable to and edge guard by the QUADRUPEDAL-
What about G&W's Oil Panic? It's one of the hardest hitting moves in the game and takes time to set up. Was it excluded because it relies on the opponent's moves to become available?
Oil panic varies too much the strength between 3 fox lasers and 3 charge shots are very different