Paul Kingsnorth - Entering Into Orthodoxy
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- Опубліковано 15 жов 2024
- Hello and welcome back to "Why Are We Talking About Rabbits?" Paul Kingsnorth returns as a guest to talk about his path to Orthodoxy, what it took to get there and what Orthodoxy is in the modern world.
Kingsnorth is an English writer and thinker currently living in Ireland. Growing up he was actively involved in protests, at one point going so far to chain himself to a bridge. He has worked for Greenpeace, openDemocracy, and EarthAction, is an honorary member of the Lani tribe and was infamously named one of Britain's top 10 troublemakers. He is also a recent convert to Orthodoxy.
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AA has a concept of ‘attraction not promotion’ that helps a transformed person from becoming a proselytizer, which is so repellant and unproductive. It’s living by example, and to people who notice behavior, may cause others to inquire as to how you attained this state of equanimity and grace?
Paul, thank you for this. I’m a disenchanted evangelical former pastor and missionary. Your voice is helping me immensely.
Still time. Welcome any time!
Let's mention Bulgarian Orthodox, since we got our independent Patriarch recognized by Constantinople in 927. That's 600 years before Russia got a Patriarch. The Balkans are a key part of Orthodox tradition, along with the Holy Land. St Paul founded a "church" in Thessaloniki in 50 AD. Anyone interested could start in Northern Greece and visit churches and monasteries (Athos only allows men to enter).
"You and swer the questions by walking the path".
Highlight comment of a great interview.
This is for sure true about North America. The Orthodox Church is alive and well and so many people are converting all the time!
I deeply admire the Orthodox faith, and I take this new interest in liturgical worship (Anglican Communion, RC, various Eastern traditions, and to a lesser degree the Lutheran Church) as a very positive sign. ANYTHING that loosens the stranglehold that Calvinist, Protestant Evangelicals have had over the Jesus narrative, at least in America, is a positive thing indeed.
I suppose if, for some reason I couldn’t worship in the Episcopalian branch of the Jesus tree, the liturgical depth of the ancient Orthodox tradition is where I would turn.
Alas, in the meantime, I remain the loyal opposition. The exclusion of women from the highest reaches of clergy seems almost like a crime against the Holy Spirit (the Roman Church suffers from the same malady) and the exclusionary use of the Eucharist in both traditions borders on evil.
ANY church that has a proprietary relationship with Our Lord does violence to His message. “WE aren’t Christ’s”, the Orthodox and Catholic Churches are basically saying, “Christ is OURS, and the only way to Him is through US.”
This simply won’t do. This mindset (notwithstanding the good faith worship of countless individual Orthodox, Roman and fundamentalist Christians) has caused most of the grief brought about by the structural church; it can be given no quarter. Our Lord himself spoke explicitly against such things. At least Orthodox priests can marry and have families, God bless them, unlike the insane policy the Roman church has upheld all these centuries.
That said, I greatly admire Paul Kingsnorth; his journey is inspiring. Ditto Martin Shaw.
I understand where you’re coming from, but I think you may be missing some things in terms of the way the Orthodox mindset/the way they think about these things. A book called “Thinking Orthodox” does a great job of diving into why Protestants, Roman Catholics, and Orthodox think the way that they do…their mindset, but with a focus on how Orthodoxy has much less in common with Roman Catholicism and Protestantism than the latter two actually have with one another (because Protestantism has its roots in Rome and was birthed as an opposition to many of the things that Rome gets wrong. But it retained a LOT of the mindset of Rome). Give it a read, it may shed some light on some of the things you mention.
Absolutely loved this conversation. I’m just starting my journey into orthodoxy - only about a month in now - and this all resonated so beautifully for me, like you guys were slightly wiser older brothers in the faith, letting me know how it could look for me if I stick with it, and that vision felt so warm but challenging.
Please have Mr Kingsnorth back on for a part 2!
The second most important Paul. Thanks.
This was just absolutely fascinating and beautiful. First time visiting your channel. Been following Paul's writings on his Substack. I'm an Orthodox convert (a lonely one out on the high plains of western Nebraska) from '09. This was so fun and profound! I really enjoy your style (humor!) of conversation. Thank you. Subscribing now.
Triscat! I have some very good friends who have a similar story out on the plains of ND… North Dakota… shall I introduce you? Good peeps figuring out their new way of life. Much love to you!
My priest recommended Paul Kingsnorth to me a while back, and I have found his writing and interviews very interesting! I love his conversion story because it's very relatable to my own and I definitely think the work he's doing really jives with how I had begun to see things. I think that's why my priest recommended him.
I was talking about the concept of "grafting" to a protestant friend the other day, and I brought up the First Things Foundation and how you guys work in the world as well as bringing up the story for St Herman.
When two people meet and become friends, small parts of them sort of bleed into one another. Over time, we adopt parts of one another. Ideas are shared and minds are changed and you can see how we become more alike but still have differences. It is such a cool process.
If you scale it up, you can see how the Church took the best of other cultures and grafted them in, yet preserved the things that made the culture different so it can continue with its own identity. This is one of the things that drew me in. Even when there had been ill intent at the start! That is how I know God brings the good from the evil we do.
And then sometimes it is so good and so sweet! 🥰
Pray for us, St Herman!
Thank you for this conversation.
Wow! Your description of grafting, and the bleeding together in the process of friendship, it’s very resonant! So beautiful, and not just in a sentimental way, but fittingly for the way creation is. I think…
@@heavythingslightly Thanks!
I mean, that's what communion is, right? If we die with Christ, we bleed together!
I've been working on an analogy to use to explain to my family and friends why I am now an Orthodox Christian after being an atheist for many years. I use humor or jokes as an example. If someone tells you a joke, and it strikes you, you will laugh. In the materialist West, an argument has broken out between two camps: those who say the story in the joke exactly happened as described with no more or less detail (those who argue for sola scriptura and the scientific reliability of the Bible) and those who claim the joke can't possibly be funny or make anyone laugh, because the story didn't actually happen. But jokes operate in a middle space, where stories are used to point at reality.
It took many, many years for me to begin to see that the stories in the Bible did happen, but they are told the way they are to be memorable, and to point at patterns in reality. They are pointers in much the same way that jokes point back at paradoxes or contradictions, or they use puns and double meanings to surprise the audience. True religion operates in that same way. If you are arguing over if a text is scientifically accurate, you're completely missing the point of what is written.
To take the analogy further: if someone asks you to explain why you laughed at a joke they didn't get, and you have to start taking apart the joke and explaining the different parts and explaining the backgrounds of the phrases or how a word was used as a pun, the joke loses its flavor. It's no longer funny to you nor to them. The life and surprise the joke contained has been let out of the bottle, and you can't really put it back in. That's frequently how I feel when trying to explain my religious experiences, or my religious insights.
Bible texts are scientifically accurate unless those are allegorical or some other non straight method. It takes a long time to humble oneself to understand that what God did was in time and space AND is a pattern by which everything happens. It's both/and not either/or
I mean bible has both historically accurate AND conceptuals, latter that you said, but what most consider non-historically accurate is because of many many many false-beliefs they hold, truly a propaganda, about science. Remember you can't verify a scientific method by scientific method - it's just a belief; just like that modern propaganda sets thousands of unprovable "scientific" opinions as claims as truths, including historific findings, dating, origins, etc.
So highly likely you're still wrong in your understanding, and they're righter in some topics who say it's scientific and historically accurate. Science in it's conception is just observation of natural world (today it's sci-fi and wishful thinking mostly but the idea was to observe world to understand it), and World is made by God, sustained by God; everything, every miracle can have scientific explanation... Why? Because by its nature it observes creation of God, created by God, so - ye those both camps are wrong and the your camp "it's just a story" is wrong too - it's a story, most likely explainable by science AND is historical. Because world is created in patterns by God, because God is a person not a thing, not a mechanism, everything you observe is made by God, nothing happens without God, the scriptures are describing real events but who says they're not iconic events...
I'm someone who's been interested in history, and coming from eastern block, you observe that like 99% of history we believe is politically dictated; no historical finding is done without politics and geopolitics involved in it, no finding is approved without political and geopolitics involved in it, etc.
All opinions about history are approved and spread according to political needs, not reality; I'd day every single one of them is so, especially the grand explanations like how old is earth and how everything came into existance
Lawns are so dumb. I'm with you. Get some goats and a garden and turn that lawn into permaculture.
*I have a lawn. Leaves in shame.*
😂
Easier to mow than weed and tend to goats. Earthing oneself on cool green grass (without pesticides) is also good.
50:00 what you see & hear depends a lot upon where you’re standing. It also depends on the kind of person you are.
- Lewis
Also, when the student is ready, the teacher will appear.
Love listening to you two talk. Looking forward to future installments.
Thank you. 👍Headford, Co Galway, Ireland. PS Didn't catch the interviewer's name. Did I hear South Carolina mentioned? Author Joseph Pearce who is also English and had a comparable trajectory into the faith has settled there too. Enjoyed listening. Thank you.
Really appreciated this, John. I’ve been following Paul for a while now, and I’ve never heard him get this personal about Orthodoxy. I can’t quite put my finger on it, but it was a different spirit than his other talks…more laid back or transparent about the details of why people are finding Orthodoxy life-giving compared to the vanilla, individualistic Evangelicalism (false) “smorgasbord”, the faux-a la carte of (one) option(s).
Oh, and the universality question was great. Conversionist religion cannot have a proper and healthy relationship to personhood. #1…that’s not how people work. And #2 it’s a denial of unity in multiplicity. It’s rooting faith in abstractions and self-identity around ideas…ewww.
And yes Luke, I agree. We have to not be afraid to tackle the question of “is this for everyone” just because it feels impossible that it could be for everyone. It is impossibly for everyone and still only real in the particular… or something like that. I mean, not everyone should become Orthodox is not the same as saying Orthodox is not universal. You can affirm both. And that shit is straight paradox which is a type of “evidence” that it is probably true. I mean God became man seems cray cray too… yet…
John - could you please do a talk with Fr. Turbo Qualls? I think you two would be awesome together.
Let’s do it! Have heard a good deal about him. Do you have a connection to him brother? How are you and thank you for listening!
It's happening today btw... look for it soon Daniel...
@@heavythingslightly coming to this late. Wow, it did not disappoint.
Great conversation.
Good luck getting Kingsnorth to speak lightly
That is the most wonderful -if you could see my face right now with the sly grin- comment ever! But he kind of did, and I love him for it, and I really enjoyed speaking with him. Lisa, you should come on wawtar next!
Sometimes cursing is the proper answer.
So good.
Hey I’m a Catholic living in Sakartvelo and I’m super curious about how you know about this stuff about Georgia. First time watching any content from you btw and it was nice. New subscriber here ✅
JMG: peace to you! I loved there during the Abkhazian war, again in the 2000’s and we now have work there In Alkhatsike… www.first-things.org
And what are you doing there brother? Great to have you on board! Go meet our people there. I can connect you to Ozzie in Alkhatsike. Keep watching and thank you…
Loved there… that’s funny. LIVED there
@@heavythingslightly yes I was hearing you so up to date with the terminology here and also your shirt. I had to made my girlfriend watch to believe it lol! Well my girlfriend is Georgian, I’m from Argentina.. long story.
I’d love to visit your community and meet some people here. Actually I’m thinking in visiting Alkhatsike soon. Who is that Ozzy? How come you’ve lived here?
It is where our connections were all those years ago when I served in Georgia. Now we’ve made new ones. And the south is a forgotten part of Georgia. Just the kind of place where we like to try and work. Ozzie is with Jake there currently but Jake will leave soon. Ozzie is in his own. We are recruiting for two more to join him in the south soon. He is still in early phase immersion. But go see him for sure! Another FW Andrew will vision him in July. Meet up!
alastairfarley@first-things.org
1:01:50 Rilke: “…the point is to live everything”
Believe if it makes you feel better - as most people do. Why not - as long as you don’t hurt anybody.
Even if it’s all based on a fantasy and confirmation bias of a sort.
I really like Paul Kingsnorth and have learned a great deal about discerning the age from him. I am confused as to why he won’t claim Jesus is the way the truth and the life though? Maybe he is sensitive to his wife’s faith and feels no need to lead people? Technically he said there are many paths that point to truth and maybe that’s true.
In my opinion he's on his journey to understand that
God that was awesome
Really enjoyed the conversation and appreciate Paul's insights and story. However, I do want to make a contention against something said towards the end of the video. Paul noted that the early Church's growth was not due to missionary activity/evangelism (outside of St. Paul) but rather to attractive Christlike living/dying. While the genuine nature of the Church's faith was an essential factor in it's growth, the Gospel would not have spread apart from the boldness of the ordinary, anonymous lower class Christians to communicate the message in their everyday contexts throughout the Roman Empire. Authentic evangelism (in both action and word) spurred its organic growth. Now I sense that Paul's comments were more of a reaction against the unhealthy Evangelical culture than a thorough analysis of Church history. However awkward and frightening it may be, we are in a sense all called to be missionaries - to love the lost around us as Christ did enough to share not what it means to be Orthodox, but rather what it means to know and love Christ. Please read Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick's "Are all Orthodox Christians called to Evangelize?" which strongly pushes back against the limited "if we build it they will come" mindset that has plagued the Church in recent years
Neither discount the role of healthy reason-based dialogue/ argument as a tool (to be used with caution) in the spread of Christianity. Our faith is rooted in a strong intellectual tradition. Take Justin Martyr, Ireneaus, and Origen for example. Not to mention St. Paul and St. Peter. And of course, Christ, the Logos Himself who pointed to the Jewish Scriptures in opening the minds of his companions on the walk to Emmaus. I too am concerned with the perversion of reason fueled by the Western enlightenment. Pascal's vision affirmed that God is the "God of Abraham, Issac, Jacob, and Christ - not the one of the pholipsphers". So we must above all else, be grounded and humbled in the Holy Spirit. Let God be true and every man a liar
Hmmm… these are insightful comments. Indeed! I wonder though if what you are calling evangelizing still has too strong a hint of modern efforts to “convince”… culture turned because people lived the liturgical cycle and leaders adopted the ethos of that cycle… I think… and wars, them too.
@@heavythingslightly Yeah you may be right about that - my concept of evangelism is admittedly in large part derived from the modern western version of Protestant Christianity under which I grew up. Modern apologetics (towards which I now feel ambivalent) helped strengthen my faith during my formative years, and I subconsciously carry that aim to "convince". St. Paul warned against this fleshly tendency in the second chapter of his first letter to the Corinthians, while in his second encouraged us to persuade others in the ministry of reconciliation "since we know what it is the fear the Lord" . So the emphasis seems to be walking in tune with the Spirit/Christ's love (resolving to only know Christ crucified) rather than being driven by the fleshly desire to win an argument. I have seen God's grace overcome this tendency in myself, however, when sharing my faith with others. I have never been exposed to the Eastern Orthodox liturgy, but from what I've heard it seems to be quite powerful and beautiful. I'd like to experience it at some point. If this is true I can see how it would affect the ethos of the surrounding culture, but only if lived out accordingly. If internalizing the liturgy in a non Christian culture leads one to treasure Christ all the more, wouldn't a desire to evangelize from the fullness of the heart follow? There is much I have to learn and experience, so please correct me if I'm not reflecting a correct view of how the liturgy functions
Who is this Sarah From Rose they mention?
Father Seraphim Rose
Thank you both, from an Irishman in Leipzig, Germany. On the balustrade of the Dominican Catholic church in Cork city reads:
"Vere tu es deus absconditus", Indeed, you are a hidden God. Isaiah 45:15.
Another good talk/interview. I'm not sure where you got the idea that every Saint and Scholar on the Island of Ireland (or indeed anywhere in Western Europe) prior to the Schism was necessarily Orthodox, as though Orthodox was somehow the default belief system prior to the Schism. But I'm guessing that you picked up from the Orthodox Christians that you are encountering. I guess a church that spends that much time looking 'inward' as your host put it, misses a few things when looking outward. In order to prove that all Christians were orthodox prior to the Schism, or even the Council of Nicea, which might be a more appropriate date, you would have to show that their beliefs are completely in accord with orthodoxy on every issue, which is something that you aren't likely going to be able to do.
The Christian Church was united until the the schism, so all saints everywhere prior to the schism are recognized as saints in the Orthodox Church.
@@mirandapasquini673 Ah yes, but that's very different to saying that all Christians prior to the schism are Orthodox.
If someone was in the Church prior to the schism then Orthodox recognise them as being members of the Church. It's really not very complicated.
@@nikola9348 I don't think it works like that, sorry.
@@grixlipanda287 That's exactly how it works for Orthodox, so its kind of patronising to be lectured by someone who is clearly not Orthodox about what conditions we would need to meet in order to be allowed by you to hold our beliefs. You are (obviously) free to not agree with our beliefs in the apostolicity of the Orthodox Church.
Why the censorship? He is saying BULL SHIT and that is what he thinks. Why the bleep?
Listening to 2 orthodox people talking abour orthodoxy on youtube: "I dont do this online orthodox stuff" 🤔
All these intellectuals never address how women are treated by orthodoxy. Nothing here to tempt me.
Why don't you ask an Orthodox woman? Look, here's one:
ua-cam.com/video/epGTXfTRVKo/v-deo.html&ab_channel=ProtectingVeil
How are women treated by Orthodoxy then?
I understand that Orthodox monks and nuns wear the same clothes. You can't get more feminist than that.
I have met many Orthodox Christians: men and women. I don't see any negative differences in their lifestyle. Maybe Orthodox fasting is easier for women? There seem to be more female vegetarians and vegans. Today an Orthodox Christian can also consume olive oil and wine. A vegan feast! ;)
I am a woman and a professional physicist. I live in an Eastern European Orthodox country and yes, there are separations of the sexes in Orthodoxy, but there is an empowerment in this which goes well beyond a materialist empowerment, it is part of the mystery of our creation and purpose. Orthodoxy is liberating and having spent most of my life in a male environment, it is within the body of the Church where I actually feel like a woman and am learning what it is to be a woman, which is so much more that the feminists ever dreamt of.
@@gillianc6514 I’m a female too but what does it feel like to be a ‘woman’ ? So many religions and cultures have conditioned girls from an early age to be a certain way - usually with limitations. (The same can be said of boys.) You can’t and shouldn’t divide humanity into two. People are more complex than that. I define myself as a human being first.
I’m pretty sure that most men in orthodox religions actually prefer women to live and socially conform as they did in the 1950’s and before.
Oh no! CS Lewis! Oh dear, you are a bit soft if you're quoting Lewis.
Give it another 20 years, and you might find your way back to reality but I guess some people will always need fairy tales to lean on to carry them through life.