TenFourFox is Dead. Long Live TenFourFox!
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- Опубліковано 1 жов 2024
- Thanks PCBWay.com - Now that TenFourFox is no longer in development as of October 2021, how will we ever subject our PowerPC Macs to the horrors of the modern web... safely? Today, we're trying out a few options to keep the web alive on PPC.
🍎 The Unofficial TenFourFox Development Toolkit - macintoshgarde...
🍎 InterWebPPC - macintoshgarde...
🍎 TenFourFox discontinuation announcement - tenfourfox.blo...
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#Macintosh #PowerPC #TenFourFox
Sean, we quit wondering why you have many machines open with janky looking fan setups a LOOONNNNGGGG time ago! :) We kind of expect it at this point!
😂
Yes isn’t that how old Mac’s and PC’s are supposed to be run.
That G4 running for 30 hours straight was probably the happiest it's ever been: it got to do real work and crunch some insane numbers.
Or it cried the whole time, hard to say.
Probably both 😂
Thanks but no thanks.
I’m honestly amazed it was able to successfully build it with only 512MB of RAM.
@@jlj945 ain’t paging a beautiful thing?
At least TenFourFox lasted as long as it did, plus it’s nice that it’s all open source so projects like InterWeb can continue what it started!
Bro TenFourFox literally ended development the same month I acquired my first PPC Mac 😭😭😭
you have the same luck as me it sounds like .
Press F to pay respects 🙏
Hopefully someone creates a cross compiler for this so you don't have to run these machines for 30 hours to update your web browser.
Could emulating ppc work. I heard m1 is amazing at emulating ppc
Generally speaking updates will be much faster because it only needs to recompile the changed files.
You can just cross-compile for PPC on a normal x86 or ARM machine. And then test using something like QEMU, which can emulate any architecture.
@@АлексейГриднев-и7р Even compiling against that ancient Xcode?
10.4Fx's time was upon it in hindsight, and discontinuing it gave Cameron the time to work on getting normal Firefox running on OpenPOWER hardware, refining the Javascript JIT to run just as well or even better than on amd64. It's good that it happened, but it's good that its end brought about newer and better things in the broader POWER world.
This man surely enjoys sending PTSD-ridden veterans to the front-line… of a war against Lovecraftian horrors from beyond.
So, should we consider that an improvement?
I’d like to see Classilia developed further. I really like using OS 9
Me too, but it has some OS level bottlenecks in doing that. There's an OS 9 reverse engineering.project out there, though, so who knows how long until that won't be a problem.
Thats extremely difficult. Classilla already pushed os 9 to its limits, so far in fact, that hardly anything besides at least a powermac g3 could run it. Its possible to upgrade Classilla, but it would be extremely difficult to even build a newer version of mozilla on os 9
Cameron's skill blows my mind. I do work in IT full time (sysadmin) for 18 years and I've been trying to learn C for 2 years and, boy, I'm having a quite tough time (even though I'm very good at bash, powershell and expect), and wow, he is a MD, and maintained a BROWSER on his own, including all optimisation work. Impressive.
I thought that in some time it would be impossible to navigate the web properly on my G4. Thank you for letting me know about all these choices!
16:00 Reminds me of when I had to run an autobuild script for FFMPEG to generate a 32-bit version for some old video apps I use, and even though I ran it on a Ryzen machine with 16GB of RAM connected to 100mbps Ethernet, it took it about 12 hours. Compiling and building software is no joke. Massive respect for developers who do that process all the time.
Sounds strange.... did you enable -j8 flag (or however many threads your machine has)?
Something's wrong there - this was the media-autobuild suite, right? Which Ryzen? Shouldn't have taken more than a few hours.
For Windows XP we have Mypal (fork of PaleMoon), so hopefully someone will similarly fork TenFour and keep updating it.
Seeing that PowerBook makes me understand why the new 16.2” MacBook Pro is so damn sexy. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it!
That's what i thought when i saw the new laptops introduced by apple!
i always hated the tenfourfox logo. its a giant fox snout, with tiny legs basically coming out of the chin and and a tiger tail coming out the back of the head? the dimensioning and outlining and everything also looks so bad
Hi, thank you for your interesting video.
If you are interested I have made changes to my MDDs to make them work silent and fresh.
Change the feeder fans with 2x60mm 12V
Change the 120mm fan with a silent 12V
Add 2 10x60mm fans behind the CPU heat sink
Build a forced wind tunnel using cardboard and adhesive tape all around the heat sink; Make sure that the air sucked by the two new fans create an air flow between the wings of the heat sink that should remain cooler than 10 / 15th degrees Celsius. Normally without changing the CPUs (in my case 2x1250Mhz) reach the 60th.
Good job.
Thanks for always making my Saturdays awesome, Sean.
Oh hi sir didn't expect to you see here.
Lovely video! Your channel pushed me to start downloading a Tiger ISO and VirtualBox
i dont have any G4s but ive got SIX imac G3s in various colors and have been struggling to get the right version of either osx on them or run something called "Crypto Ancienne" and classilla. ideally id like to compile "Crypto Ancienne" to run on my raspberrypi that i run my pihole on and run telnet locally. i telnet into it and then ssh into other computers on my network, using my imac g3s as a terminal
I think it’s more convenient and faster just to use an intel Mac for the build process of those apps since they are big
Couldn't distcc be used to do the compiling on a much more modern computer? Distcc can do cross-compiling so even a modern x86 could do the heavy lifting and you don't risk toasting your vintage Macs.
Yeah, I was about to come suggest this. distcc and ccache were my go-to when compiling under linux on the classic XBox.
tbh i'd be a lot more interested in 'life after classilla'.. : ( : )
sounds like my Some of my older Apple products like my Power Mac G4 and I love my little iMac G5 it's days may be numbered are as using it online my other apple is my SE/30 .
I saw you interviewed in Wired about the things you find on old computers. Very interesting.
hopefully someone can actually get it to play with the altevec because as it stands its not fully accelerated
You forgot to include the link to the interview with the TenFourFox developer in the video description! It sounded really worth reading, can you share it?
The Old Net has got you covered on TenFourFox…
You might want to explore cross compiling on a modern machine with PPC targets.
Thats very sad that tenfourfox isnt supported
for sure I agree 100 % I wonder if he decided to get out of it because the latest Security updates that just came out causing a lot of Apple and windows products not be able to browse the web
Would you have a video on the ATX power supply in your G4 MDD? Thanks
With the light reflection, I really thought for a while your wireless mouse was running low on battery, lol
It’s very common for engineers to move to medical when they burn out.
How long did it take to compile on the MDD?
Hah, I forgot to mention that didn't I 😅 About 8 hours.
@@ActionRetro You didn't say why your MDD flies to 2GHz ..... but the compiler uses both CPUs?
@@ActionRetro So I should be compiling this stuff on the Powermac G5 then.
Can't you emulate G4 architecture with QEMU and do the compilation thing on a more recent PC/Server? Or maybe just cross compile.
Incase anyone is curious I ran octane on my 11700k and got a score of 75956. Shows why older computers struggle with modern websites even if the browser supports all the modern features.
Great info, have been using TenFourFox on my old iMac G3 some time ago.
LOL I just ran octane, got 30K on my current machine using FF
Hahaha
28K on my phone.
I remember Cameron from the ttytter days, long ago; sad we lost touch. The man is a machine. I did not know he was responsible for TenFourFox, but I'm not at all surprised he is, either.
I hope we get a new browser for 10.3 since not everyone is running/able to run 10.4
What browser do we use in leopard if you have an Intel processor not a power PC but I still can’t get a modern browser. Can I use the power PC browser? Also, what about browsers for El Capitan? Is there anything that will work on that and allow me to play UA-cam?
i wonder if running Mac OS X in a VM on a modern PC might give you faster compile times?
How on Earth is InterWebPPC that fast? It's painfully slow on my Quicksilver 933 MHz G4 with 768MB of RAM and a fresh install of Tiger!
Because its MDD has 2 G4 overclocked at 2.0GHz, 4 times faster than the excellent QS933... ;)
Okay but how do I download it. I have never used a Mac in my life but I have a 1,1 I got for free and can’t extract any of the files I have downloaded
I just bought another Mac! I've bought two and received a free one in the last month or two! They were all made after 2010 though. I just got a MacBook Pro 2015!! The most advanced Mac I've ever owned! I wanted it so that I could natively run MacOS Monterey. I had issues though because it only had a 128Gb SSD when it came so I used an adapter to put a 1Tb nvme SSD in it and Monterey needed a firmware update for it to work with Monterey. So I had to put the old drive back in, install Monterey to it (which updates the firmware). Then I put the 1Tb drive back in and it installed fine. This needs to be spread around because I'm sure there are more people than just me who have had problems. I got sheepshaver working on my PC actually booting MacOS 9.0.4. It runs great but I haven't had a good play of it yet. A lot of the old stuff I used to use on my vintage Macs has errors when I try to run it. Wish I had my old PPC 7200 to run stuff on.
I will install it on my G4 cube and iSight 20" iMac G5 thanks Sean for the info
As I recall it works very well on my Cube, which I've had for gosh- 20 years now I think.
However, I wish it also ran on my NeXT Cube, which I use as a daily driver.
Nice
I browse the web on a budget 2007 laptop. After upgrading its CPU, RAM and hard drive to an SSD And installing Windows 8.1 instead of VIsta - It's perfectly capable of doing all i need. Heck, it ran fairly smooth with Windows 11
I just want to watch youtube videos on old macs...why is that not solved...🙁
Just wondering how much hard drive space building TenFourFox took?
my surface pro 3 just decided to not charge after i updated it
Very cool! Glad tff lives on in a way :)
How has Adam made his Leopard (?) dock look flat like this?
My first thought was that it would be interesting to compare the compile times between my 700MHz eMac, 1.25GHz Mini, and 1.67GHz Powerbook G4. Then I was going to suggest that it might be a good benchmark for machines in your videos, but considering it goes for 30 hours that might not be a great test!
Anyway, it's sad to hear the project isn't being actively worked on anymore. At least there's now an easy way to build it ourselves if we want, and a viable alternative with InterWebPPC if we just want to download something and go. Hopefully the source is kept up to date too.
Sean very very cool, Yeah I Know, Stream thank you so much for this and if they also do the same for Classilla let us Know!
Finally
It sucked anyway,super slow
Since Action Retro also deals with older Macs (and Apple !!s!) this may be something you would know... is there ANY browser available for Mac OS 7.6.1 (I have a PowerMac 7600 with a 200mhz 604e upgrade)? I mean "a browser that is relatively functional in 2022." The standards seem to have moved on to the point where even IE 5.5(?) just bugs out and refuses to render pretty much ANY url...
Great video! It's fun to get these old machines online again. I'm not sure if this is possible, but I wonder if one could cross compile for PPC on an Intel Mac with 10.4-10.6? It could help speed things up a bit. I know that universal binaries existed during the PPC to Intel transition. Perhaps this allows cross compiling to straight PPC.
0:32 and 3:27 : Nice new hand expressions, if I´m not mistaken 😂
😂
Just for giggles I ran Octane on my M1 Air (Safari) and got a score of 41693. I am going to have to try the compile thing on my G4-800 DP.
I cant run mac on my ppc (I have to use wii-linux-ngx)
How did you achieve that smooth camera movement in this video?
Power of FOSS
Is there a way I could cross compile this on a Windows PC?
I got a powermac g5 in august and once I got it working in september I noticed tenfourfox was being discontinued in about a month. odd timing on my part.
that is the story of my life .
If it's the tower you can always get another and make a park bench out of them. Those cases are really strong!
TenFourFox is dead, long live InterWebPPC!
Id like to see just how good or bad a maxxed out dual quad G5 with SATA SSDs is
My G4 Ali thanks you, as do I ;)
I'm not surprised to be fair, I expected the TenFourFox program to die ages ago.
MJD?
yoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
super
aaaa
It may be dead but its spirit will live on!
What is the Octane for the G3 version?
Thanks for all your work Cameron
NOoooO!!1!!!!!
my solution to this is to just use VNC to access a VM on my server.
You can also go on a sunday drive with a classic car by driving it onto a trailer and towing it around.
If it works for you: Great! But some people take their classics onto the road and try to push them to their limits. Same things with putting vintage PCs (and Macs) on the internet under their own power.
FUUUUUU
I would remain super skeptical of all these pop-up projects until a couple of them proves that they have bwill to follow the project through for any amount of time.
Normally whenprojects like this die they really do die, and the people who promise to replace it are not worthy of the title.
What you want more than anything else is someone is part of a company which still relies on Power macs for some reason and gives support for that reason.
They may well follow through, but in the first month? Be ready for all of these new projects to dry up in the near future.
Two years. Give it two years and we will see if any of these are still alive.
TenFourFox Toolkit creator here. All projects begin as popup projects to scratch an itch. In my case, I thought the build process was too involved and I wanted to make it easier for my friend and others to build. The long lived projects are the ones where a community develops around it and it becomes bigger than the one person that created it.
Neither I nor wicknix have promised to replace anything. We do it for fun and as a hobby. We don't owe you or anyone else anything for any length of time. We were all lucky that Dr. Kaiser did this for as long as he did.
Your cynicism here does not help. To help extend the life of these projects, you should jump in, get interested, and contribute. Become the community that keeps projects alive.
I say all that to say, if you want to see things like this stick around, then it is on you and others to step in and help. If you want to just sit back and predict when something is going to fail, you're contributing nothing and no one needs to hear it.
stop using firefox on your m1 it just hurts
its not only the worst browser on windows nooo
its even worse on macOS
Would it be possible to run this script on Intel via Rosetta on Leopard or even Snow Leopard? Or does it need to be compiled on PPC hardware?
I believe this should be doable if the compiler knows how to compile PPC. On linux, this would be as easy as setting CHOST and CFLAGS, and building a GCC for the target platform.
@@omfgbunder2008 TenFourFox Toolkit creator here. I've been trying to figure our how to do that. The MacPorts installation runs fine under Intel but it always detects and tries to build it for Intel. I tried setting the CHOST env var for PowerPC Darwin but it didn't seem to affect it. Any tips on how to get it to think it's building for powerpc-darwin rather than x86-darwin?
Please port it to the much superior OSX relative - NeXTStep 3.3. Don't bother with OSX.
Not sure who you think you're fooling by recording your voice over after shooting the video. Your hand movements are so unnatural and forced that it's painfully obvious that the audio we're hearing in the video was post-production.
How do you know it's my hand