Since I love to see the bread rise in real time, I’ve been using Pyrex (both top and bottom) to bake my sourdough, with or without the baking stone, putting in the bread as soon as baking temperature is reached, and getting great oven springs. I think the importance of “preheat 1 hr” and dutch oven are both overhyped. The oven spring (and taste) is more a matter of proper fermentation and shaping of the dough. Thanks for your experimentations!
I use a pyrex-like dish inverted, i.e. the shallow glass cover as the bottom and the deep bowl as the top. I use a piece of baking paper and slide the bread on it into the preheated shallow dish and then cover it. 30 min preheat usually with my oven. No stone or steel, just a wire tray.
@rickloudermilk6351 I have a borosilicate glass Pyrex (made in France). Be careful with the preheat if you have that soda lime glass garbage they use in the US.
This was super useful. I started with Sourdough about 3 months ago and I've been going with minimal equipment, so finding that I can use Pyrex without worries is great.
Minimal equipment? I bake a 2 loaf sourdough recipe, 1/2 cup start, 2 cups water 4 cups bread flour, 1 tsp salt in two 8" diameter, stainless steel, dog bowls + 2 bowls for covers. The 4 bowls cost $10.00 at $Tree.
Been using a roaster (bottom half) just as in video . A BIG plus with the roaster covering is it is large and a LOT of water spray inside lid before putting in place can create a great steam space.
till now I've used the hot water with open loaf/dough was I do not have a cast iron put or Pyrex but now I've seen enough of with far better method and used the amazon link from our lovley foodgeek ;) Can't wait to see the results and far less steamy.
I just started making sourdough bread, only made two loaves up to now. I've used my pyrex deep dish roaster with lid as my baking vessel, with the lid being the bottom as I don't have a pizza stone. I preheat the whole roaster for about 30 minutes and baked it accordingly. For a beginner sourdough baker like me, this worked really well.
I haven’t baked sourdough yet (will probably start next week) but I have a pizza stone which I highly recommend if you’re going to make pizza anyways. Then at least you’ll get 2 solid uses out of it!
I always use the pyrex lid, simply because it's the largest thing I have that I can use. Thanks for another great film, Sune BTW: I pre-heat my lid before using it
Just a note. That's the bottom of the the enamelled roaster not the lid. Same with the pyrex and dutch oven. All thew were the bottom part tipped upside down to use as a cover. The lid portions would be more shallow and have a handle in the center for lifting off the bottom part vs handles on the ends/sides for lifting the full pan.
Nice experiment! I think what matters the most is the baking steel... Next time you could test different ways to make steam like boiling water in a tray or spray ... It's a suggestion
Thank you for doing this experiment! My mother has been interested in getting into baking sourdough, but has had medical problems that involved a bone graft using a bone from her arm. She can't lift heavy things, and so many guides practically demand using cast iron (which is what I use as well, since I already had a cast iron dutch oven). The weight of it was an issue for her, especially while bending over. She didn't want to bother with investing time with the other steps if she couldn't get a good result, so I will definitely let her know about your results!
Your videos are doing more to advance the craft of home bread baking than pretty much anything else out there right now. I would love to see some experiments with even more dramatic results. For example major differences in proofing time, major differences in bulk fermentation time, or a version of this with no lid at all or other steam techniques (e.g. pan, towels, nothing, etc),
Another excellent video. I've been making sourdough every week for nearly 4 years. Your videos are incredibly helpful. I recently experimented with adding 4 chopped medjool dates (also poppy seeds) to the dough. The rise was amazing. Perhaps the culture was feeding off the added sugar. Flavour was great.
I think cast iron is the traditional suggestion because it is known to be safe at high temperatures, whereas not all glassware will be. I don't have a Pyrex bowl but I do have Anchor which based on reviews I see online is suggested to shatter into a thousand itty bitty pieces. I was honestly a bit more surprised to see that none of the vessels were pre-heated: I often heat my cast iron pot along with my baking steel, now I wonder if the idea that an oven spring is encouraged by the heated pot is an actual thing or not. I have a rather small pot, 2 quarts, so at best by breads basically form fit into it so it doesn't seem to negatively impact spring at least.
I would hold my breath when heating Pyrex to 500 deg f. I would have expected it to shatter. Also have to be careful not to bang the oven on the way out. Glass is much less able to absorb impact at those temps. I would stick with metals.
@@jme8112strat I agree. With Pyrex at 500F, any bump might be your last. I also stick to metal. When using Pyrex I just set it into the oven and bake, and carefully let it cool down.
@@jme8112strat Pyrex safe with 600°F as well. I think cast iron is suggested because the basic method is to put the dough INSIDE the bowl, so it can get a high constant heat - but as he said, he used a stone, which is maybe even better - covering metarial will not matter, it's only for keeping the steam inside.
Another great video. Gives me confidence when I take my starter on vacation without my normal kitchen tools. And the strat over ur shoulder always makes me swoon
Love your experiment videos, thanks! I use an inexpensive 2.5 liter Corning Ware vessel with a glass top. I can see the progress of the bake during the initial 30 minute covered period. Steam is captured and I get good results. Take off the lid for the final 15-20 minutes.
I use a 26cm Pyrex casserole using its shallow lid as the base which comfortably fits a 1kg dough. It does a great job. The Challenger is too pricey as the alternatives do the same job at a fraction of the cost, and besides, I don't have storage space for it.
Thanks Sune. I love this experiment because i have just bought two Pyrex long roasrers so I can do two loaves at a time. They are cheaper than cast iron, don't take much pre heating and of course I can see my bread rising.
You should repeat the no preheating of the oven experiment with the lightweight cover. You used the cast iron with the preheat test which obviously take all heat without preheating leaving the bread cold. The lightweight cover will warm up fast and bake the bread better. As you can see with this experiment the cast iron doesn't do much, so you can still save a lot of energy.
There should be some heat retention in the pyrex as well - so it could be preheated as the cast iron. but all 3 look great so maybe no need to go down that route :-)
@@flyingozzy that depends in which glass. Original Pyrex is borosilicate and safe go 900F. Later they changed to tempered soda-lime glads which has lower limits. Borosilicate is also use in chemistry labs, over high heat and even direct flame. So a good borosilicate dish (like Anchor) is fine at 500F, just not the current Pyrex brand junk.
@@flyingozzy pyrex bakeware is oven safe to 300C. Its the enamel one that from what I've seen is only oven safe to 230C. Maybe swapping an enamel to a steel roaster would be better (still cheap, though slightly heavier), but then the temp might be to do with the coatings.. so checking is key.
How do you take into considerations, that the second bread has 40 min. Longer testing time and the 3. Bread 80 min. - beacause they are waiting for the other breads to bake ? Thank you
The loaves are waiting in the fridge after several hours, so there isn't much difference. If the proofing is direct, at room temperature, it is impossible to bake the three loaves at the optimal point of fermentation.
I started my sourdough starter on 12 September, it’s now 16 October, honestly I’ve never seen it rise more than half it’s size, often times , it simply lays flat after feeding. I’ve switched the flour three times, all bleached bread flour, I wonder if that’s the reason why. And I’ve only baked a fail mess once during these times, I’d say unless you’re a person who eats sourdough bread often, the whole process kinda not worth the efforts and time invested, not to mention how everyone is promoting the cast iron thing, which can be very expensive, I’ve been craving le creuset ever since....
@@kingyuen954 If starter were to work it would have been in a period of a few days. If you PM me an address I will send you a living thriving starter, gratis. You would just need to feed it immediately.
@@kingyuen954 I did start my starter in August when it still was warm, a wheat version from Italy was my goal. At first I followed the guides for normal sourdough and it didn't work very well. After a week I realized in case of what I want I need to lower the water compared to flour. I did that and it got stronger, after the second week I tried to used it for the first time. It was still a bit on the weaker side. Now after about 2 month it is far stronger and it works very well. Just one feeding every week as it's staying in the fridge the rest of the time. Usually on the weekend I feed the starter, one part into the fridge and the other part will the sourdough for bread. I'd say the first two week were really messy and annoying, yes. Everyday feeding, no fridge. The next two weeks I put it in the fridge but feeded it two to three times a week. After the first month it's now weekly and much less work.
Was that an IKEA Blanda Blank? I was looking at those myself as it is hopeless to get a dutch oven, or a big enough pot, that is not too high for the oven.
I use an enameled roaster with lid. I just put the loaf on parchment and it's like a cradle lowering it in. I bake my sourdough and yeast bread this way, the only difference being temperature.
I've been watching your videos for a few months now and I think this is the one I really wanted to see from you! I've been baking in a Le Creuset but I hate that I either have to drop the dough into it or put it on baking paper and lower it in - either way, it affects the shape. Now I'm convinced that my baking steel and Pyrex bowl will work just fine!
Wow, your videos are amazing. Really good decisions on the shoots to learn about the technique and the way the dough is handled. Everything is very clear. Great channel for learning about baking.
since I was getting oven spring issues using just steam I purchased an enamel roaster and use the base like a cloche along with my iron baking sheet just like the vid, I dont get anymore dough blowing out the side or uneven cooking now. The Russel Hobs Vitreous 36cm roaster is perfect
Can you please please do another experiment without using the steel as a base but the base of the actual containers ? I transfer the loaf in the baking pot after I turn it over on parchment paper and it’s very easy to lift it with the paper and place it in the pot.
that's how i do it too, difficult to get a steel or stone shipped to my location so am using a lightweight enamel pan and lid. while it's working great, for me as a newbie, i love seeing all the variables
I love your bread baking experiments. They help break down some of the sourdough baking myths. Thanks for making these videos. I always learn something.
Thank you Sune for your valuable input. I am also new to sourdough bread baking and with your experiments you are answering questions I haven't even thought of yet!
I wish you would do a video on cold ferment times. I’ve heard it can go three to five days. When I have stretched to three days, my dough always suffers from degenerated gluten. I want that extra sour flavor and am trying to find a balance. I have learned to “under-ferment” on the counter, and that definitely helps! Any other tips?! “
The bacteria that produces the sour effect is more active at a higher temp than we normally use for yeast. I use a proofing box made from a cooler, warmed by a homemade temperature controlled light. It keeps my proofing box at 90F.
If I do more than 24 hours in the fridge, my dough develops a little bit of a crust, no matter how well I wrapped it or covered it, which I find prevents full oven spring. It's still a great loaf, but it doesn't quite get the same pop.
What I have been doing is putting a large cast iron skillet in the 450 degree oven, put a smaller one with water underneath the rack for steam and after the oven is hot, then I take the dough out of the fridge I put about 10 ice cubes into the pan that's under the rack for more steam, I turn the dough over unto parchment paper, make a slice on top with a razor blade and lift the dough and parchment paper into the hot cast iron skillet, I don't cover it, I leave it in for 40 minutes. and it rises beautifully and I like it better than with a cover on it!
I use a 15" steel balti I use the lid as the base and the pan part as the lid. When I open the oven I put the balti over the flame for those few seconds to boost/retain the heat. Its a workaround, but it works (The handle of the lid fits snugly between the bars on my oven)
Love this tactic of just covering the bread on a stone or steel... I hate the idea of having to manage and get a bread into a blazing hot cast-iron pot... It's asking for burns.... This solves it completely :) Might be interesting how much difference it makes to coat with water beforehand or not :s
I've a couple of times used Pyrex both to proof and to bake. Oil the bowl, let the dough proof in it, put the lid on then tunr over so the dough releases onto the lid and then bake like that removing the bowl from the lid 1/2 way through.
Cheap stainless steel mixing bowls work beautifully and they are lightweight and nest for storage. You can’t beat them. A preheated cast iron skillet works as well as a baking stone under the bowls.
FYI! PYREX these days is made from SAND GLASS. It has the tendency to shatter in an explosive manner when exposed to rapid temp changes. Cook with it at your own risk.. A considerable risk. Ideally you want to find some legitimate borosilicate glass; Like pyrex built its rep with. Not soda-lime glass like it uses now (The cheapest glass)
I use two stainless steel steam table pans. The full size pans allows me to put 3 - 9" loaf pans when making sandwich loaves and cover them. I usually add 1/4 cup of water to the bottom for extra steam. Bake at 475F for 40 minutea and then uncovered for another 10 -20 depending on the bread. It also allows me to do longer loaves. For that, i put a metal 1/4 measuring cup of water in one of the corners instead of dumping it on the bottom like I do with loaf pans.
Oh... And I bought 2" deep full size pan for the bottom and a 6" deep full size pan for the top cover. It gives you close to 8" of room. Plenty of room for 2lb or 1KG loaves.
Thanks for another great experiment. Curious if you usually preheat the vessels at all? Does it effect the overall temp & therefore have an effect on the oven spring?
I love the results, since I have any number of things I can use - so I’m glad one isn’t necessarily the only “right” utensil! One question: I assume the fact that the last loaf waits a longer time before it gets baked doesn’t make a difference? (It stayed in the fridge, right?)
Thank you so much for this very well researched and well presented demonstration. I like many hanker after the perfect loaf. I found this very helpful because of the non-variable comparison. I think I'll have a go with the Pyrex. Kind regards from North Wales UK 😃
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You lack the control of an uncovered bake here. Great content though!
@@rnptenafly I think covering the bread makes it unnecessary to use ice cubes or sprinkling water because the vapor released by the bread itself during the baking is enough. I believe that's why he achieved a great crust anyway
All his experiment videos have something that invalidates the experiment. It's usually changing the preparation or method, drives me nuts. But I still find myself watching
I happened to be baking today and tried uncovered w/ ice cubes and covered w/ a roasting pan & ice cubes. There was a slight difference..... I am a newbie to sourdough. The most frustrating thing I have ever attempted. I would save time and money if I just went to the bakery.
The cast iron lid was preheating in the oven, was already hot when he place the dough in. The glass lid and the roast lid wasn't preheated as the cast iron, so right there you loose lots of oven spring. Not fear! However I love his videos is I being learning a lot. Sube! Tks for the good work, you helping a lot to change the world of grains, flours and do your self for a better place.
Hi. Thanks for the video! However, wouldn't it make more sense to bake in a cast iron combo cooker vs a pyrex dish vs a baking steel+steam, but using both the top and the bottom of the cast iron/pyrex dishes? I am really new to sourdough baking, but from what I have read, the baking surface makes all the difference, since it transfers heat directly to the bread and is one of the main contributors to ovensping.
The baking steel is the best surface for transfer of heat (better than cast iron); so baking directly on the steel with a cover achieves the same effect as using a combo cooker/dutch oven. That being said, use what works best and easiest for you!
@@JohnLockard Here is a good article with some explanations on the difference: slice.seriouseats.com/2012/09/the-pizza-lab-the-baking-steel-delivers.html
Also a lifelong learner as you can tell by my handle. Great video, thank you! I wonder how much difference in the 3rd loaf was caused by the delay in baking while it waited for its turn?
There will be a significant difference as baking the dough directly right on the baking pots vs using them as covers to compare while using the same base material. All three react to heat differently related to temperature and time.
always used a pyrex for baking bread, but pre-heated. i am glad to see there is no difference to the cast iron, as this one would be too heavy from my cheap mini oven. yhanks for experimenting it =)
Thats awesome! As I started to make bread (two month ago) it was really spontaneous and I new we would have something at home to cover my bread with, so I used an ovenproofed dish from glas. I was a bit worried if it would stand 250°C, but I worked perfectly fine and I think I will not change it now!
Does the pyrex lid sit snug on the steel with no steam escaping? In the video this particular model looks like its slightly elevated at where the handles are, allowing for steam to escape?
Can you preheat the pyrex without it shattering? Also, how do you manage baking multiple loaves when each requires the temperature to drop at the second stage of baking? Do you just leave the other loaves in the fridge for the extra hour it probably takes to bake one and then raise the temperature back to 500? Does that time make any difference?
Thanks Sune for this experiment. I have recently started making sourdough bread and use a Pyrex dish as it’s relatively light weight and much cheaper than cast iron, I found it works really well and have been getting better loaves the more I bake. Have you also tried different kneading techniques, I’ve heard of the Rubaud method, stretch and fold, coil method and plain kneading.....which is best? Thanks for all the interesting experiments you have done👍
How does the temperature of the dough affect oven spring? Does doing a cold ferment overnight or baking the dough at room temperature lead to better oven spring?
The fridge dries the dough all around, creating a stiffer 'container', still keeping the inside moist, helping to retain the shape and also far easier to score. Just a question how long between fridge and over. Some, take the dough out of fridge and let sit for an hour or two before oven, but I've seen some place it pretty much from fridge to oven with minimal rest time...
I’m going to try it next with a loaf on my big cast iron pizza pan with a Pyrex casserole dish over it then again with the 2nd loaf on the same pan with a big stainless steel mixing bowel and see how it goes after seeing this. I’m really not wanting stockpiles of ultra expensive cookware in here but still wanting all the great results.
Well, another nice video-experiment. Would have loved to see the ovenspring of an uncovered loaf baked with steam, compated to the covered loafs, though.
Hi Sune, have you tested preheated vs. non-preheated dutch ovens? I have a feeling that the non-preheated oven (with perhaps a few minutes extra first baking time) will give a higher rise because the dough has a longer time to rise before the top crust over. Would be quite interesting to see.
Ok, this proves the cover doesn't matter much at all, but rather what you put your dough on. You obviously use a baking steel, but what about a pizza/baking stone? There's a great variety of those too, from solid rock - which should work pretty much as a baking steel - to light ceramic ones with a lowish heat conductivity, which are great for taming the heat from super hot charcoals in a grill. Any chance you could test out some of those? Maybe even add in a simple oven tray that everybody owns?
Given that being able to consistently bake good bread is a science and not an art, i'm super confused by the findings: how can a pre-heated iron (which is a great heat conductor) lid produce identical results to a cold Pyrex (a terrible heat conductor) lid? In theory the latter should need a good 10 minutes extra cooking time.....
Hey love your videos and great info. I noticed you didn’t spray or use any kind of steaming technique. Does your oven have steam injection or do you not really use steam? The breads look great otherwise.
I use $1.25 stainless steel dog water bowls from the $tree. One for the bread pan and one for the cover. The bread loaf rests in the fridge over night as it proofs in the dog bowl and goes goes directly into the oven to bake with a second bowl for a cover.
You have both surprised me, AND saved me from spending a lot of money on a pot just to try bread! Thank you so much!
Since I love to see the bread rise in real time, I’ve been using Pyrex (both top and bottom) to bake my sourdough, with or without the baking stone, putting in the bread as soon as baking temperature is reached, and getting great oven springs. I think the importance of “preheat 1 hr” and dutch oven are both overhyped. The oven spring (and taste) is more a matter of proper fermentation and shaping of the dough. Thanks for your experimentations!
I would love to watch the oven spring with a pryex. Do you know which model you have?
I use a pyrex-like dish inverted, i.e. the shallow glass cover as the bottom and the deep bowl as the top. I use a piece of baking paper and slide the bread on it into the preheated shallow dish and then cover it. 30 min preheat usually with my oven. No stone or steel, just a wire tray.
@@kraklakvakve the bottom deeper pyrex, is that preheated too? thanks.
@rickloudermilk6351 I preheat both to 250 C. Half way I uncover and lower to 210 C (optional)
@rickloudermilk6351 I have a borosilicate glass Pyrex (made in France). Be careful with the preheat if you have that soda lime glass garbage they use in the US.
This was super useful. I started with Sourdough about 3 months ago and I've been going with minimal equipment, so finding that I can use Pyrex without worries is great.
Minimal equipment? I bake a 2 loaf sourdough recipe, 1/2 cup start, 2 cups water 4 cups bread flour, 1 tsp salt in two 8" diameter, stainless steel, dog bowls + 2 bowls for covers. The 4 bowls cost $10.00 at $Tree.
Been using a roaster (bottom half) just as in video .
A BIG plus with the roaster covering is it is large and a LOT of water spray inside lid before putting in place can create a great steam space.
I love the idea of just setting the loaf on the stone and then placing a cover over it .
I’m like why didn’t I think of that!?!
Exactly!!
Much safer!
What has everyone else been doing?
till now I've used the hot water with open loaf/dough was I do not have a cast iron put or Pyrex but now I've seen enough of with far better method and used the amazon link from our lovley foodgeek ;)
Can't wait to see the results and far less steamy.
I just started making sourdough bread, only made two loaves up to now. I've used my pyrex deep dish roaster with lid as my baking vessel, with the lid being the bottom as I don't have a pizza stone. I preheat the whole roaster for about 30 minutes and baked it accordingly. For a beginner sourdough baker like me, this worked really well.
I haven’t baked sourdough yet (will probably start next week) but I have a pizza stone which I highly recommend if you’re going to make pizza anyways. Then at least you’ll get 2 solid uses out of it!
Same as I do, with a stone beneath though.
I always use the pyrex lid, simply because it's the largest thing I have that I can use. Thanks for another great film, Sune
BTW: I pre-heat my lid before using it
Do you preheat it empty??
Just a note. That's the bottom of the the enamelled roaster not the lid. Same with the pyrex and dutch oven. All thew were the bottom part tipped upside down to use as a cover.
The lid portions would be more shallow and have a handle in the center for lifting off the bottom part vs handles on the ends/sides for lifting the full pan.
At the end the most important thing is to keep the steam inside the pot! Great job as usual!
Nice experiment! I think what matters the most is the baking steel...
Next time you could test different ways to make steam like boiling water in a tray or spray ... It's a suggestion
Thank you for doing this experiment! My mother has been interested in getting into baking sourdough, but has had medical problems that involved a bone graft using a bone from her arm. She can't lift heavy things, and so many guides practically demand using cast iron (which is what I use as well, since I already had a cast iron dutch oven). The weight of it was an issue for her, especially while bending over. She didn't want to bother with investing time with the other steps if she couldn't get a good result, so I will definitely let her know about your results!
This video completely changed my practice, ive been struggling to lower bread into a deep cast iron and that will never happen again.
Your videos are doing more to advance the craft of home bread baking than pretty much anything else out there right now. I would love to see some experiments with even more dramatic results. For example major differences in proofing time, major differences in bulk fermentation time, or a version of this with no lid at all or other steam techniques (e.g. pan, towels, nothing, etc),
Another excellent video. I've been making sourdough every week for nearly 4 years. Your videos are incredibly helpful. I recently experimented with adding 4 chopped medjool dates (also poppy seeds) to the dough. The rise was amazing. Perhaps the culture was feeding off the added sugar. Flavour was great.
That was surprising. The traditional advice is to use the cast iron dutch oven. Now we have more options. Thanks Sune, and good experiment.
I think cast iron is the traditional suggestion because it is known to be safe at high temperatures, whereas not all glassware will be. I don't have a Pyrex bowl but I do have Anchor which based on reviews I see online is suggested to shatter into a thousand itty bitty pieces.
I was honestly a bit more surprised to see that none of the vessels were pre-heated: I often heat my cast iron pot along with my baking steel, now I wonder if the idea that an oven spring is encouraged by the heated pot is an actual thing or not.
I have a rather small pot, 2 quarts, so at best by breads basically form fit into it so it doesn't seem to negatively impact spring at least.
I would hold my breath when heating Pyrex to 500 deg f. I would have expected it to shatter. Also have to be careful not to bang the oven on the way out. Glass is much less able to absorb impact at those temps. I would stick with metals.
@@jme8112strat I agree. With Pyrex at 500F, any bump might be your last. I also stick to metal. When using Pyrex I just set it into the oven and bake, and carefully let it cool down.
@@jme8112strat Pyrex safe with 600°F as well. I think cast iron is suggested because the basic method is to put the dough INSIDE the bowl, so it can get a high constant heat - but as he said, he used a stone, which is maybe even better - covering metarial will not matter, it's only for keeping the steam inside.
Another great video. Gives me confidence when I take my starter on vacation without my normal kitchen tools. And the strat over ur shoulder always makes me swoon
Love your experiment videos, thanks! I use an inexpensive 2.5 liter Corning Ware vessel with a glass top. I can see the progress of the bake during the initial 30 minute covered period. Steam is captured and I get good results. Take off the lid for the final 15-20 minutes.
I use a 26cm Pyrex casserole using its shallow lid as the base which comfortably fits a 1kg dough. It does a great job. The Challenger is too pricey as the alternatives do the same job at a fraction of the cost, and besides, I don't have storage space for it.
Thank you so much for doing this! i'm a new sourdough baker, and I dont have the equipment. This video helps alot! will be trying my pyrex!
Thanks Sune. I love this experiment because i have just bought two Pyrex long roasrers so I can do two loaves at a time.
They are cheaper than cast iron, don't take much pre heating and of course I can see my bread rising.
Thank you. I am happy that you've found a way that works for you
You should repeat the no preheating of the oven experiment with the lightweight cover. You used the cast iron with the preheat test which obviously take all heat without preheating leaving the bread cold. The lightweight cover will warm up fast and bake the bread better. As you can see with this experiment the cast iron doesn't do much, so you can still save a lot of energy.
I've always used a Pyrex container and results never let me down. Nice experiment.
This info in this video was outstanding! Thanks for sharing your experiment.
There should be some heat retention in the pyrex as well - so it could be preheated as the cast iron. but all 3 look great so maybe no need to go down that route :-)
HOOKEDONWOOD except that Pyrex isn’t meant to be used over 450F so overheating it could crack it
@@flyingozzy that depends in which glass. Original Pyrex is borosilicate and safe go 900F.
Later they changed to tempered soda-lime glads which has lower limits.
Borosilicate is also use in chemistry labs, over high heat and even direct flame.
So a good borosilicate dish (like Anchor) is fine at 500F, just not the current Pyrex brand junk.
@@flyingozzy pyrex bakeware is oven safe to 300C. Its the enamel one that from what I've seen is only oven safe to 230C.
Maybe swapping an enamel to a steel roaster would be better (still cheap, though slightly heavier), but then the temp might be to do with the coatings.. so checking is key.
Great video with lots of good choices, I will use my Pyrex dish now 👍
How do you take into considerations, that the second bread has 40 min. Longer testing time and the 3. Bread 80 min. - beacause they are waiting for the other breads to bake ? Thank you
The loaves are waiting in the fridge after several hours, so there isn't much difference. If the proofing is direct, at room temperature, it is impossible to bake the three loaves at the optimal point of fermentation.
Not much difference because they are waiting in the fridge.
You’re not talking about the proofing, but about the baked products, right? No one seems to get that.
Thank you soooo much! I have been waiting for this experiment. Now I know what to buy!
I loved this experiment. I prefer Pyrex/ Corningware but never considered it for bread baking! I’m going to give it a try. Love your channel.
I watch so many of these videos. I've really got to start making my own bread.
Noooooooo !
I started my sourdough starter on 12 September, it’s now 16 October, honestly I’ve never seen it rise more than half it’s size, often times
, it simply lays flat after feeding.
I’ve switched the flour three times, all bleached bread flour, I wonder if that’s the reason why. And I’ve only baked a fail mess once during these times, I’d say unless you’re a person who eats sourdough bread often, the whole process kinda not worth the efforts and time invested, not to mention how everyone is promoting the cast iron thing, which can be very expensive, I’ve been craving le creuset ever since....
@@kingyuen954 If starter were to work it would have been in a period of a few days.
If you PM me an address I will send you a living thriving starter, gratis. You would just need to feed it immediately.
@@kingyuen954 I did start my starter in August when it still was warm, a wheat version from Italy was my goal. At first I followed the guides for normal sourdough and it didn't work very well. After a week I realized in case of what I want I need to lower the water compared to flour. I did that and it got stronger, after the second week I tried to used it for the first time. It was still a bit on the weaker side.
Now after about 2 month it is far stronger and it works very well. Just one feeding every week as it's staying in the fridge the rest of the time. Usually on the weekend I feed the starter, one part into the fridge and the other part will the sourdough for bread.
I'd say the first two week were really messy and annoying, yes. Everyday feeding, no fridge. The next two weeks I put it in the fridge but feeded it two to three times a week. After the first month it's now weekly and much less work.
I tried an Ikea steel bowl just two days ago and worked fine for me.
Was that an IKEA Blanda Blank? I was looking at those myself as it is hopeless to get a dutch oven, or a big enough pot, that is not too high for the oven.
Cheap stainless mixing bowls from Walmart work just fine!
you have some of the most informative content, thank you very much
Thank you
I use an enameled roaster with lid. I just put the loaf on parchment and it's like a cradle lowering it in. I bake my sourdough and yeast bread this way, the only difference being temperature.
Brock Landers do you set the roaster on the oven rack or on a baking stone/steel?
I've been watching your videos for a few months now and I think this is the one I really wanted to see from you! I've been baking in a Le Creuset but I hate that I either have to drop the dough into it or put it on baking paper and lower it in - either way, it affects the shape. Now I'm convinced that my baking steel and Pyrex bowl will work just fine!
Or invert the dutch oven over the bread and stone/steel.
@@TEDodd good call! I'm not sure why I never thought of that
Wow, your videos are amazing. Really good decisions on the shoots to learn about the technique and the way the dough is handled. Everything is very clear. Great channel for learning about baking.
since I was getting oven spring issues using just steam I purchased an enamel roaster and use the base like a cloche along with my iron baking sheet just like the vid, I dont get anymore dough blowing out the side or uneven cooking now. The Russel Hobs Vitreous 36cm roaster is perfect
Can you please please do another experiment without using the steel as a base but the base of the actual containers ? I transfer the loaf in the baking pot after I turn it over on parchment paper and it’s very easy to lift it with the paper and place it in the pot.
that's how i do it too, difficult to get a steel or stone shipped to my location so am using a lightweight enamel pan and lid. while it's working great, for me as a newbie, i love seeing all the variables
I love your bread baking experiments. They help break down some of the sourdough baking myths. Thanks for making these videos. I always learn something.
Thank you Sune for your valuable input. I am also new to sourdough bread baking and with your experiments you are answering questions I haven't even thought of yet!
I wish you would do a video on cold ferment times. I’ve heard it can go three to five days. When I have stretched to three days, my dough always suffers from degenerated gluten. I want that extra sour flavor and am trying to find a balance. I have learned to “under-ferment” on the counter, and that definitely helps! Any other tips?!
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Use starter/levain that’s past it’s peak as it develops more sour flavor that way
The bacteria that produces the sour effect is more active at a higher temp than we normally use for yeast. I use a proofing box made from a cooler, warmed by a homemade temperature controlled light. It keeps my proofing box at 90F.
What does under-ferment mean?
@@TheWitchvortex I think it means they reduce the amount of time it bulk proofs on the counter before going into the fridge maybe?
If I do more than 24 hours in the fridge, my dough develops a little bit of a crust, no matter how well I wrapped it or covered it, which I find prevents full oven spring. It's still a great loaf, but it doesn't quite get the same pop.
Your introduction style is different , unique , but i like, " those were the words "
What I have been doing is putting a large cast iron skillet in the 450 degree oven, put a smaller one with water underneath the rack for steam and after the oven is hot, then I take the dough out of the fridge I put about 10 ice cubes into the pan that's under the rack for more steam, I turn the dough over unto parchment paper, make a slice on top with a razor blade and lift the dough and parchment paper into the hot cast iron skillet, I don't cover it, I leave it in for 40 minutes. and it rises beautifully and I like it better than with a cover on it!
Very informative video. I was considering buying cast iron but now I’ll save a lot of money by buying Pyrex. Thanks.
Great vid, Sune! I really like the way you make this 'scientific' by only varying one parameter.
So cool how you always react to viewer input with your experiments! Keep it up, Sune!
I use a 15" steel balti I use the lid as the base and the pan part as the lid. When I open the oven I put the balti over the flame for those few seconds to boost/retain the heat. Its a workaround, but it works (The handle of the lid fits snugly between the bars on my oven)
Great demonstration. Thanks for doing the work for the rest of us GEEKS 😃
You're welcome :)
The enamel roaster was the bottom - they sometimes come with a lid. I have a clay bread cloche that I bake with.
Love this tactic of just covering the bread on a stone or steel...
I hate the idea of having to manage and get a bread into a blazing hot cast-iron pot... It's asking for burns....
This solves it completely :)
Might be interesting how much difference it makes to coat with water beforehand or not :s
I love this experiment - thank you, Sune! I'll be baking a loaf in a couple of hours and I'm trying this with our pyrex
I've a couple of times used Pyrex both to proof and to bake. Oil the bowl, let the dough proof in it, put the lid on then tunr over so the dough releases onto the lid and then bake like that removing the bowl from the lid 1/2 way through.
Cheap stainless steel mixing bowls work beautifully and they are lightweight and nest for storage. You can’t beat them. A preheated cast iron skillet works as well as a baking stone under the bowls.
FYI! PYREX these days is made from SAND GLASS. It has the tendency to shatter in an explosive manner when exposed to rapid temp changes.
Cook with it at your own risk.. A considerable risk.
Ideally you want to find some legitimate borosilicate glass; Like pyrex built its rep with. Not soda-lime glass like it uses now (The cheapest glass)
I use two stainless steel steam table pans. The full size pans allows me to put 3 - 9" loaf pans when making sandwich loaves and cover them. I usually add 1/4 cup of water to the bottom for extra steam. Bake at 475F for 40 minutea and then uncovered for another 10 -20 depending on the bread.
It also allows me to do longer loaves. For that, i put a metal 1/4 measuring cup of water in one of the corners instead of dumping it on the bottom like I do with loaf pans.
Oh... And I bought 2" deep full size pan for the bottom and a 6" deep full size pan for the top cover. It gives you close to 8" of room. Plenty of room for 2lb or 1KG loaves.
I greatly appreciate the simple approach which yields such great results. Love the experiment's and as always feel very inspired. Thanks Sune
Great! I have pyrex and now I know how I can bake with good oven spring. I shall try it! Thank you so much.
Another very informative review Sune, thank you very much for this amazing effort.
Your videos are so soothing - they help me during rough times
Thanks for another great experiment. Curious if you usually preheat the vessels at all? Does it effect the overall temp & therefore have an effect on the oven spring?
This was such an awesome experiment video! Super informative. Love it. Thank you!
Great, I have been looking for something to replace cast iron, which I don't have. A big big Thank You to you! 🙏🙏🙏
I did learn today!!!! Many thanks ...had not thought to do this before so will try it
Congratulations You gave me useful ideas that I will try in my learning journey . Baking sourdough bread is a never ending experience.
I love the results, since I have any number of things I can use - so I’m glad one isn’t necessarily the only “right” utensil! One question: I assume the fact that the last loaf waits a longer time before it gets baked doesn’t make a difference? (It stayed in the fridge, right?)
What a great video, I was wondering about it too. Thank you 💖
Do you bake your bread directly from a fridge?
Hey Sune, do you think you could make a video about sourdough English muffins 🙏🏽🙌🏽
Thank you so much for this very well researched and well presented demonstration. I like many hanker after the perfect loaf. I found this very helpful because of the non-variable comparison. I think I'll have a go with the Pyrex. Kind regards from North Wales UK
😃
You lack the control of an uncovered bake here. Great content though!
Yes, I would have liked to see it uncovered, perhaps adding some ice cubes for steam.
@@rnptenafly I think covering the bread makes it unnecessary to use ice cubes or sprinkling water because the vapor released by the bread itself during the baking is enough. I believe that's why he achieved a great crust anyway
All his experiment videos have something that invalidates the experiment. It's usually changing the preparation or method, drives me nuts. But I still find myself watching
I happened to be baking today and tried uncovered w/ ice cubes and covered w/ a roasting pan & ice cubes. There was a slight difference..... I am a newbie to sourdough. The most frustrating thing I have ever attempted. I would save time and money if I just went to the bakery.
The control was cast iron. He never does uncovered bakes.
The cast iron lid was preheating in the oven, was already hot when he place the dough in. The glass lid and the roast lid wasn't preheated as the cast iron, so right there you loose lots of oven spring. Not fear! However I love his videos is I being learning a lot.
Sube! Tks for the good work, you helping a lot to change the world of grains, flours and do your self for a better place.
Hi. Thanks for the video! However, wouldn't it make more sense to bake in a cast iron combo cooker vs a pyrex dish vs a baking steel+steam, but using both the top and the bottom of the cast iron/pyrex dishes? I am really new to sourdough baking, but from what I have read, the baking surface makes all the difference, since it transfers heat directly to the bread and is one of the main contributors to ovensping.
The baking steel is the best surface for transfer of heat (better than cast iron); so baking directly on the steel with a cover achieves the same effect as using a combo cooker/dutch oven.
That being said, use what works best and easiest for you!
@@adamjchafe I'm curious how a baking steel would be different from something like a baking stone, or slab of granite.
@@JohnLockard Here is a good article with some explanations on the difference: slice.seriouseats.com/2012/09/the-pizza-lab-the-baking-steel-delivers.html
Also a lifelong learner as you can tell by my handle. Great video, thank you! I wonder how much difference in the 3rd loaf was caused by the delay in baking while it waited for its turn?
Overproofed by then? I don't think so
There will be a significant difference as baking the dough directly right on the baking pots vs using them as covers to compare while using the same base material. All three react to heat differently related to temperature and time.
always used a pyrex for baking bread, but pre-heated. i am glad to see there is no difference to the cast iron, as this one would be too heavy from my cheap mini oven. yhanks for experimenting it =)
Thanks Zune!! Love your videos.
Wonderful presentation and explanation very clear and useful
I didn't want to invest in a Dutch oven so I basically do this. I got a huge glass bowl and cover my bread with that. It works really well.
Thats awesome! As I started to make bread (two month ago) it was really spontaneous and I new we would have something at home to cover my bread with, so I used an ovenproofed dish from glas. I was a bit worried if it would stand 250°C, but I worked perfectly fine and I think I will not change it now!
Does the pyrex lid sit snug on the steel with no steam escaping? In the video this particular model looks like its slightly elevated at where the handles are, allowing for steam to escape?
Can you preheat the pyrex without it shattering? Also, how do you manage baking multiple loaves when each requires the temperature to drop at the second stage of baking? Do you just leave the other loaves in the fridge for the extra hour it probably takes to bake one and then raise the temperature back to 500? Does that time make any difference?
I also worry about the heat shock of placing pyrex onto a ripping hot baking steel
Thanks Sune for this experiment. I have recently started making sourdough bread and use a Pyrex dish as it’s relatively light weight and much cheaper than cast iron, I found it works really well and have been getting better loaves the more I bake. Have you also tried different kneading techniques, I’ve heard of the Rubaud method, stretch and fold, coil method and plain kneading.....which is best? Thanks for all the interesting experiments you have done👍
How does the temperature of the dough affect oven spring? Does doing a cold ferment overnight or baking the dough at room temperature lead to better oven spring?
The fridge dries the dough all around, creating a stiffer 'container', still keeping the inside moist, helping to retain the shape and also far easier to score.
Just a question how long between fridge and over. Some, take the dough out of fridge and let sit for an hour or two before oven, but I've seen some place it pretty much from fridge to oven with minimal rest time...
I use a 2cm thick pizza stone ($4) and a stainless steel salad bowl (4$).
It doesn't have to be expensive to be good :)
I’m going to try it next with a loaf on my big cast iron pizza pan with a Pyrex casserole dish over it then again with the 2nd loaf on the same pan with a big stainless steel mixing bowel and see how it goes after seeing this. I’m really not wanting stockpiles of ultra expensive cookware in here but still wanting all the great results.
Hi! So nice to watch yr experiments. Hvnt had time to bake for a while bt nvr miss yr posts.
Well done, you answer that a beginner like myself was asking, thank-you!
This is amazingly helpful! Thank you!
I use the roaster method and the bread is coming good. No stone or steel yet, I'm new. Very hard to put two baguettes though. Round is easiest.
Well, another nice video-experiment. Would have loved to see the ovenspring of an uncovered loaf baked with steam, compated to the covered loafs, though.
Hi Sune, have you tested preheated vs. non-preheated dutch ovens?
I have a feeling that the non-preheated oven (with perhaps a few minutes extra first baking time) will give a higher rise because the dough has a longer time to rise before the top crust over. Would be quite interesting to see.
Excellent demo, thanks a lot and God bless you, be careful
Your videos are always so excellent thanks for preparing them :)
thanks.. that was so helpful 😄
Ok, this proves the cover doesn't matter much at all, but rather what you put your dough on. You obviously use a baking steel, but what about a pizza/baking stone? There's a great variety of those too, from solid rock - which should work pretty much as a baking steel - to light ceramic ones with a lowish heat conductivity, which are great for taming the heat from super hot charcoals in a grill. Any chance you could test out some of those? Maybe even add in a simple oven tray that everybody owns?
Given that being able to consistently bake good bread is a science and not an art, i'm super confused by the findings: how can a pre-heated iron (which is a great heat conductor) lid produce identical results to a cold Pyrex (a terrible heat conductor) lid? In theory the latter should need a good 10 minutes extra cooking time.....
Thanks Sune! Awesome video 🙌
Thank you for this experiment, your channel is great! Would you make a Q&A some time in the future? :)
I've been using the enamel pan for my sourdough, it works great as my loaves are longer than what my Dutch oven can fit.
What if you don’t have a baking stone? Is it Ok to use a cheaper metal tray, round or rectangular? Thank you ☺️
Could you maybe do under proofing vs over proofing
Zune, you are awesome!! Is there an issue with the pyrex at that high of temperature?? Im concerned about this.
Hey love your videos and great info. I noticed you didn’t spray or use any kind of steaming technique. Does your oven have steam injection or do you not really use steam? The breads look great otherwise.
I use $1.25 stainless steel dog water bowls from the $tree. One for the bread pan and one for the cover. The bread loaf rests in the fridge over night as it proofs in the dog bowl and goes goes directly into the oven to bake with a second bowl for a cover.