How Great Games Beat The Grind
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- Опубліковано 5 тра 2018
- Follow me on Twitter- / thefearalcarrot
Support The Architect of Games on Patreon- / architectofgames
Unsurprisingly, grinding isn't fun- but that's not all there is to it. Rather than being something that happens to the player, grinding actually happens all in our heads.
After a brief holiday in Pelican Town, The Architect is back to tell you how even repetitive games can beat the grind by using three neat tricks.
You Saw:
Pokemon Omega Ruby- 2014
Warframe- 2013
Hearthstone- 2014
Torchlight 2- 2012
Fortnite: Battle Royale- 2017
Megaman X- 1993
XCOM 2 WOTC- 2017
World of Warcraft- 2004
Brigador: Up-Armored Edition- 2017
Luftrausers- 2014
Nuclear Throne- 2015
Into The Breach- 2018
Minit- 2018
Duolingo???- Je ne sais pas
Stardew Valley- 2016
Star Wars Battlefront 2 (the new one)- 2017
Enter the Gungeon- 2016
Interesting Links-
Stardew Valley and real life work-www.rockpapershotgun.com/2017...
Draz's suspiciously well-timed video on grinding- • When is Grinding Fun? ...
Ignorance is bliss in Stardew Valley- www.kotaku.co.uk/2017/10/10/in... - Ігри
Wow! One million views! Don't you people have anything better to be doing with your time?
Well, yes, but actually, no. Just found this channel, great content, keep it up
Adam Millard
Like watching your videos? That's the better thing I could think of
No. I don't.
No much fun game recently T.T
14 minutes isn't much
"Does gamification help you learn french? Lemme show you."
>proceeds to say "no, it doesn't" *in German*
Amazing.
Was that a bug Or a feature?
Bethesda: yes
Im native german and thought he spoke dutch. xD
haha thought he spoke dutch as well
@@danielmuller6724 I'm*
That accent though :D
One thing that also helps beat the grind is making the progress physically visible in the world.
Mining in Minecraft is technically a grind, but you get to see the area that you have dug out and it makes you proud of your accomplishment and eager to keep going.
On top of that, the random appearances of caves can turn your mundane mining session into something of a spelunking adventure.
Modded Minecraft makes the grind amazing to play, you start out with nothing and once you reach that glorious endgame and you pretty much have everything automated it gives the best feeling of satisfaction ever!
Like terraria
It gives you a *_SENSE OF PRIDE AND ACCOMPLISHMENT_* .
This is seen greatly in sandbox MMOS, and faction-centric sandbox games. It takes large groups of 20+ players weeks of gameplay to reach a goal, but because you get to see these man hours working towards an end result it's immensely satisfying. Forced teamwork through immense grinds is a great mechanic imo.
I'm surprised this video did not include Factorio, a game that is entirely about automating away any tedious processes that just keeps you coming back.
Honestly it felt pretty grindy quite soon. Sure you reduce the grind by automation but building all the automation is veeeery grindy
@@hommhommhomm Building it all up is a little grindy, sure. But then you get construction robots, and you start simply copy-pasting parts of your factory you need more of, your base gets auto-repaired and auto-replaced when destroyed, you get artillery to dispose of aliens at range so you'll never have to fire a SMG again, and so on. Hell, someone made an auto-expanding factory that just expanded in squares endlessly, automatically building train stations, mining fields etc. through logic circuits :P
It does depend though, as someone with a couple of hundreds of hours in Factorio I find myself dreading restarting on a new map sometimes, because yeah, it does take time to get things up and running. However, that is also the ideal time to experiment with new factory layouts (as you're bound to run into clusterfucks in your factory somewhere some time), or even just general assembly lines can be improved upon over time with a new variety of inserter arms, more belts etc. It's the time to experiment before the bots practically turn the game into an RTS.
@@hommhommhomm yeah but that grind is mainly our own fault .. like different layouts and different approach can make it faster but grinding it to make a perfect layout gives u the satisfaction and makes it worth it
Autonauts
1:00
"Is there a game where they have done ALL 3 of these?"
Me: "Terrari-
"Stardew Valley"
was thinking the exact same thing lmao
terraria is grinding in person
@@testrun994 Grinding is basically every way to summon bosses in Minecraft
@@randomguyontheinternet7940 i mean yeah grind is part of every good game, but there is a stage in terraria where you just start to get the best equipment and building your base, and that eats a shitton of time mining ores and killing mobs.... i dont say that its bad but a lot grind over all
@@testrun994 Grinding is something that is an aspect of every good game I agree, if the player is never treated to or choses to play something over than the player will never get better at something.
5:34
"Nein tut es nicht, es ist wirklich sehr schlecht."
He learned French so good he started talking German.
or so badly
Oh dang, I didn't even understand him lmao
Shots fired.
German is a more intellectual and generally superior language to French. Discuss.
@@swine13 Ich kann nicht widersprechen
There is a political joke in there somewhere
I love the Stardew Valley music playing in the back v subtle
Since it was over a different game I thought I left the game running in the background ngl
the music is great in general ngl
I've fell sort of out of love with stardew Valley for some reason, it was very fun but I just... Stop liking it and I never even got to marry emily (best girl)
autism 23 I agree lol (about Emily), but if you stick with the game it only gets better, it’s just about making your own goals to work towards
@@bruhnova8917 Stop playing for a long while, then when a new update or new mods come along, install them. Or play with a new character or change your marriage partners or stay single forever. Change the farm setting, play multiplayer, or try the JojaMart route instead of the community centre route... change your farming choices - raise only animals, raise only fish, just mine all year long, or even just farm fruit trees & make wine all year round for all you care. There isn't any/one way to end the game at all & that's because SV is that flexible. Try all options.
P/S: But for a spouse I'd always only choose Elliott for some reason lol & my character is always male... so yeah I don't have any say in this actually lol!!
VR chat is grindy af to get your charisma level to "tolerable".
100 hours in and I still haven't found out where the story begins.
When he started speaking German, it killed me.
"No, don't do it, its really very bad"
To be honest his German wasn't that good either
@@maxhax367
Thats what made it so funny
it's*
@@merlintym1928 That's*
@@JorgetePanete
If your interested in correcting my german to, id welcome it. Than you would be closer to an actual grammar nazi.
(Errors intention all)
You basically described the three C's of game design.
Catharsis
Context
and Challenge.
A game must satisfy two of these in order to become a good game.
just another bi passing by
...then it’s a great game
I mean shouldn’t that be obvious?
Context? When I search three C's of game design it just shows camera, character, control instead.
@@nathanlevesque7812 I think it means that in a game every or near every decision, action, and sequence of events must have some importance or impact on the world of the game. Because what is the point of a game if your decisions and action are all meaningless?
@@TheFriendless1 Wow, that is so relevant to the decline of Fallout. Thanks!
and C
You're fighting an Oddish with a Geogude?
I see you like to live dangerously.
nice
Lol
That oddish who used acid has negative iq lol
Lookin' like Ash Ketchum strategies
Yeah because this guy is so not a gamer, he even mocks it as he makes money off his dumb videos that revolve around a noob Talking about his experience, feelig so confident he takes the piss with real games to show how much he cares
Adam: The egg hunt is the most stressful thing in thw whole game!
Prairie King: Hold my gun.
Now that I know the perfect route to take in the egg hunt, I always win every year. Nine or even 10 eggs, every time.
@@Nightweaver1 not perfect ive gotte 12
@@ttg7504 I've gotten 13 a couple times
3:00 Headphone warning. Gameplay volume is _significantly_ louder than voice.
you deserve the best the world has to offer
holy cow I didn't even have headphones in and I felt my speakers shaking lol
I was seconds too late to this comment, but you're an amazing human being regardless
Saw this after it happened.
@@nekoz4984 Same here. :/ I generally don't like to read the comments before finishing the video (spoilers and all that), so it busted my ears. And then he talked about how good it sounded, and I was like, "Clearly, you like different sounds than I do."
13:36 - "Where did all you guys come from?"
The channel started popping up in my recommendations after I'd been watching several Mark Brown videos in a row.
Terraria videos
@@merrillgeorge1838 And Dani. And Jonas Tyroller. And Extra Credits. And various game jams...
'Grind is a state of mind, not a state of gameplay.'
Exceptionally well put. Great analysis, definitely provides a solid critical lens for when examining what can make a game feel like it's dragging.
so that 400 hrs what take you get a dragon in trove is just a state of mind, and not pure grind.
one word, Warframe
This line will help me greatly getting through the lv 30-40 world of warcraft grind in WoW classic when it comes out. sweet jesus is 30-40 a slug. Once you get 40 and get that mount though its so much better its weird. 60% movement speed bonus is still really slow by todays standard but it just Feels like a god damn bullet train after literally Running everywhere for 40 levels for literal DAYS of play time haha.
the feel whenyou get you first flying mount oh god, you have infinite power!
MMMmm Diablo gameplay is just a state of mind... ok
I'm glad that Grandpa's Evaluation can happen more than once in Stardew.
It’s more like a, “I spent 20 bucks on this I am going to milk this as much as possible.”
Also known as the sunk cost fallacy lol
@@shanagbaimuru3926 The opposite is technically true in this case. In a sunk cost fallacy you are becoming desperate and essentially trying to salvage what you feel to be a bad investment, but to no avail. In entertainment, the more you use it, the more valuable that investment was (whether it be cable, streaming, gaming, etc.
@@DensetsuTekina if you’re not having fun though, that’s just more time wasted on top of the money you wasted
Games are already incredibly cheap entertainment, if you only ever played that $20 game for 20hrs thats $1/hr of entertainment. How much are concert tickets again? for around 3hrs of entertainment. Now realize how often you end up with hundreds to thousands of hours in your favorite games and suddenly that $60 game cost you $60/1000 =6¢ an hour, pretty good deal if you ask me.
I know you need to factor in cost of the console/PC and electricity but both of those usually average out to pennies an hour as well. And this analysis assumes all entertainment is equal when it is all subjective what is better.
@@jasonreed7522 If I'm not getting three hours per dollar, I'm feeling like I didn't get a good value proposition on a game. It definitely defines my taste in games overall, leaning heavily toward "games to play after work" and its cousin "games to play all weekend", all with long-standing persistent save files (my Super Mega Baseball 3 franchise, all nine MLB-length seasons' worth of it, or my Bannerlord kingdom, or my (insert city builder here) metropolis...)
Gaming is indeed dirt cheap all things considered, even if you're a PC gamer with a fairly beefy rig. Sure, $2,000 (or more) for a computer every three or four years is a lot of money all at once, but $1.37 a day (4 years, $2,000) is pocket change to save up for the next one.
As a german native speaker i respect your effort.
That pronounciation hurt me and im not german.
When somebody comments on your pronounciation in such a dry tone, I think you can tell the intent. ;)
As a native speaker I did not even realise at first that he was speaking German :D
I majored in Germanistik and it made me cringe, I thought he was speaking Dutch at first lmao.
me too :D
The UA-cam algorithm smiles upon you. Praise be to its benevolence!
All HAIL THE ALGORITHM!
Clutch as fuck algorithm. Exactly the type of video/channel I was hoping for.
Hail the algorithm! It knows me better than myself.
Tbh the algorithm sucks, just luck that this was recommended to us.
NO! NOT THE ALGORITHM! THE GLOW CLOUD! ALL HAIL THE GLOW CLOUD! ALL HAAAAAAAIL!
*Old School Runescape players want to know your location*
runescape's grind has its own appeal, most of us play it for nostalgia but the grinding aspect is inherent in its nature, somehow it just feels the right way of grinding.
Ninth Gate You're right. Runescape is a game about setting goals and achieving them.
The theme of runescape itself its the grind. I've always find amazing how a game can have its whole hook based on something that kills other games. I believe it is just because its honest about it, so you aproach it with that expectation.
@@andrewprahst2529 The weirdest thing about OS Runescape is how easy a player can organically flow from one goal to the next.
"Oh gotta lv Magic for the teles", "oh but foods a problem so let me just get some wood to cook the food", etc.
Old School Runescape is an anomaly in it of itself.
I guess it having a unintentionally high skill ceiling for some reason also helps. Definitely a strange game OSRS is.
Spearra Really though. It's a sight behold.
I started playing again recently. Do you play?
It took me nearly 9 in-game months in Stardew Valley before I realized I could fill my cat's water bowl.
Also Leah best girl.
I have never played Stardew Valley and this sounds like the height of animal cruelty.
You can what? Oh no...
What.. you don’t need fill that water bowl everyday to keep her alive?
@@oaedeoi It doesn't seem that way... Or my cat would be dead
@@oaedeoi Nah it's just for show.
I came from youTube recommendations. Really love your videos.
Same.
Same
Ditto. Don't remember which video they showed first though.
Same.
I'm also here from recommendations. Love this content
I was literally multitasking by grinding my pokemon and listening to this video at the same time.
As a teenager, i get grind quite easily (being a bad player, I'm quite discouraged too), and that's why i have a lot of games, although sometimes i play through hours and hours without wanting to stop. And other times, i get bored so easily i want to play other game, and because of that i kinda forget how to play well and badly affect my improvement in said game.
Maybe try only playing games in small groups so that you don't forget the mechanics and you can finish those games before moving on to others.
Whwn u said u could get grind for a second I thought u were talking about grind weed
Try living in the moment more, when you lose attention it’s probably because you’re impatiently rushing to the part of the game you want to be at. This used to happen with me a lot in games like Fallout
@@confidential5743 I do enjoy playing, but when I stop, I don't wanna go back.
I'm in a similar spot as you friend. I can grind nonstop if the game is right I continue to finish the game and then after that I try to find a new game to grind but nothing sparks my interest and I end up getting bored in the first few minutes I'm not sure how to kinda of fix this problem but I have been able to find a way to still play certain games without getting bored and that's with friends I'm quite lucky owning a discord server with a bunch of friends who regularly play certain games.
Runescape Free to Play: Enjoy the grind.
Runescape Membership: Enjoy the game.
there are a lot of people staying free to play because the grind is way harder compared to member
@@susch7466 Sort of the reason I used to play as a member. The grind is okay, but it's gotten bad. Every single level in Runescape except for maybe 80+ in any skill... is worthless. It's an empty level. Does next to nothing. Unlocks practically nothing. Helps you practically zero. Nobody wants to buy your bronze, iron, steel, or mithril equipment. Addy, Rune, and above? Oh, people will buy that quickly and easily. Basic magic spells that use super common runes and are really weak? Waste of time. Magic doesn't even become slightly useful until you're doing low level alch... and it doesn't become ACTUALLY USEFUL until high level alch... it doesn't become combat viable until you're throwing death runes into your spells.
Every single skill in Runescape is like this. There's no reason to have the grind when everything between 1 and 80 are worthless and useless wastes of time. The only reason to engage in it is usually because "the grind makes the game harder" or "I can't afford to pay for membership". Really, the "grind" just makes the game somewhat longer, so you spend longer with skills that don't help you at all. Which, okay, fine, but that seems like a boring way to play. Hold on man, gotta fletch another 9000 arrow shafts for a fletching level so I can make a magic shortbow at the next level!
Runescape is "pay to have fun". Anything actually useful in the game only happens on a Members Server with a Members account and the levels aren't worth anything until 80 in pretty much any skill in the game.
XxTaiMTxX i disagree completely. Many levels below 80 are extremely useful and can make you millions. Not to mention that getting to lvl 80 takes not much time at all. Once you have 70 combat stats you can start doing bosses that have drops in the millions. If you don’t enjoy grinding then don’t whine like a bitch and just don’t play.
XxTaiMTxX also stop talking about magic being useless lol. You are saying how magic isn’t useful until you are using death runes but death runes are used in spells well below 80. Idk what you have been smoking but don’t come in here ripping apart a game you clearly know nothing about and aren’t willing to spend the time on.
@@_MindsEye_ Dude, just hit "EDIT Post" rather than post again like some moron. It's funny you don't even know "EDIT Post" exists, and then proceed to say I have no idea how Runescape works.
Nevermind that I've been playing since the game used to be 3 servers with 200 max pop on those suckers. Back when the bank only stored money and the best equipment you could get was an addy battle and addy plate, of which the addy plate sold for 40,400 minimum and Bluerose 13x was one of the few people who could even smith the freakin' thing.
Been playing off and on for a while man.
Magic spells are basically useless and worthless UNTIL you get to Death Runes where the damage at least becomes respectable and you've got enough levels in Magic to even equip gear that makes you not miss so freakin' often.
Seriously, you don't even know that making millions before level 80 is pointless because all the good gear isn't even really unlocked until level 70 and the stuff you can buy costs like 14 million as a minimum. Anything better than that and you have to EARN through quests and drops. Of which, money serves no purpose.
There is literally two reasons to earn money in Runescape:
1. Buy membership with it.
2. Buy materials to minimize the grind of leveling skills.
If you're spending your money on anything other than that, then you're an idiot player.
In fact, if you're earning money for any reason other than that in Runescape, you're an idiot player.
By the by, most of my skills are a minimum of 60 (Invention and Archeology being the few that aren't). My magic is actually pretty close to 80, and my Runecrafting is 99. My mining/smithing is 80 as well. Yeah, I know, such low levels for someone who has played so long... But, it's only recently that leveling up even became easy and quick. Plus, I take years off the game to not play because it's... well... grindy. It doesn't help that it's got an antiquated "click to move" system, which is desperate need of overhaul to a WASD move scheme to make combat more fun and interesting (and some of the boss fights more entertaining).
Really, the only things I have to do in Runescape are just Questing, which I almost never do because it's boring. The other is just maxing out other skills which is... grindy (and also quite dull most of the time).
I've dumped a lot of time into Runescape. Much of it before the "Get you to max level as quickly as possible" aspects of the game ever dropped. Much of it before the "Buy Membership so you can skill even faster and cut out the grind" parts of the game.
We're talking, "I got my Prayer up to Level 60 on basic bones alone because nothing else existed to raise prayer except basic bones at the time". And no, the XP value of regular bones hasn't ever changed.
I was around when you created characters that were PvP or non-PvP and couldn't change them. When you could be PK'd anywhere.
I've probably played a lot more Runescape than you have.
I probably know a lot more too, since you didn't even know that you needed Magic skill to even use Magic Gear that made you not miss your spells as often. Which, you know, you don't even really get access to until about the time you start using Death Runes... which is also about the time your spells start to do decent enough damage that they could be considered as good as what Rune equipment was before the Mining/Smithing overhaul.
By the way, that overhaul for Mining/Smithing was weird. I had to actively complete like half a dozen quests to even get access to the materials I could already mine and smith and most of my gear became worthless overnight. The least they could've done was went, "okay, here's the equivalent gear in new materials in exchange for what you have" so I didn't have to do all that extra work just to be able to mine my Level 80 stuff again.
Runescape makes a lot of really weird decisions when it comes to their design.
I feel like you're missing a 4th tool to avoid grind (which will work in some games but not in others), which is automation. Basically just making the players stop having to do the grindier parts of the game once they reach a certain point or set up a certain thing, allowing them to spend more time doing the fun portions of the game while still progressing.
Factorio in a nutshell.
The best example nowadays likely (even though I'll admit I've never played it).
noname117spore free up about 18 hours every day for the next 10 days and play it
Stardew valley still being a beast in this regard, with sprinklers and auto feeders for your animals
Factorio is basically on another level, I'd probably call it an automation game rather than a management game.
12:34
You tube recommendation really, your stuff is good. Great voice and pace to it all.
You're also presenting ideas I haven't thought about before, so that's cool.
Once the journey becomes boring or obsess about completing everything as fast as possible, all you do is focus on wanting to be at the destination sooner, which further compounds the issue making you constantly aware that you are stuck on a journey you don't want to be on, and must endure to get to the other side. Alot of gamers just play games to get to the destination and in our social media world of today, show off to their fellow gamers/friends of their success. Complete the game, get the achievements, maximum level and gear, to many these are all to be rushed as fast as possible and anything else is a barrier to these goals, of which all story will be skipped, which then leaves them with no context to their gameplay so it is all grind, a race to the end then quit and repeat with the next game.
Of course there is no right or wrong way to play games, that's what makes them so brilliant, that speedrunners, loremasters, explorers and achievement hunters can enjoy the same experience and benefit sharing knowledge of all their different areas of expertise. Personally I've never understood the obsession to rush to the end of the game, but I've always taken my time with my entertainment, and I enjoy watching speed runs for their sheer skill and ingenuity. I appreciate a good progression system to keep me playing a game, but when it becomes the entire game to an absurd degree, like Facebook/automated Cookie clicker games, Diablo 3's 17 levels of difficulty and the 100th RPG/open world game with mountains of non-gameplay effecting collectables, it does make you pine for a streamlined game that focuses on other types of progression like story instead of a number going up.
MMO's in a nutshell would be a good title for the first paragraph.
@@blobvisfan666 The dude isnt talking about game genres in the first paragraph, they are talking about gamers mindsets. If you really wanted you could take your time in any MMO's, explore, make friends, Immerse your self in the lore. But a very large percentage of players will choose to optimise the fun out of a game in favour of getting to the end faster. Then complain that they got bored doing so.
@@TheMcal9909 But you can't argue against that there's still quite a lot of people who play like this (i don't think i can include myself here, since i had a blast playing Trove, especially when interacting with the clubs and all that). It might not be how most MMO fanbases are *portrayed* to be nowadays, but it is for a *pretty big part* the actual fanbase.
@@blobvisfan666 I miss understood your post. I thought you was trying to say MMO's are like that, but no i agree large portions of the MMO player base are definitely like that.
Rush to end game by grinding the least fun but most efficient path, blames game for having boring leveling because they had no fun leveling. Does the same at end game, blames the game for being boring because they had no fun at end game. MMO player base in a nutshell.
Maybe you've been focusing on the wrong kinds of games and wrong kinds of RPGs. If you're 'pining' for games that focus on 'other kinds of progression', why weren't you playing them?
"You might think that watering plants are boring..."
Me: flashbacks on the time when I suffered every time I went to the Garden in PvZ with just the default Gardening can to water 48 plants -_-
Hahhaha u fool u utter fool your supposed to max the watering can far maximum efficiency
If I remember correctly, there's a quote from Soren Johnsen that says "given the opportunity, players will optimise the fun out of a game."
Having played both of Soren's big projects (Civ 4 and Offworld Trading Company), he's not wrong.
Fun fact: The phrase the daily grind come from back when most of the population were farmer and had to grind the grain by hand every day to make bread .
You're so right about grinding being a state of mind. That's why I think it works when games have things like inventory, weapon or ammo caps, because those can be used to discourage getting into a grinding mindset and to throw caution to the wind a bit and explore the game.
5:30 "do they help you to learn French?"
*proceeds to talk german*
"No, something something something. Something something something something something."
AoT: "Grinding is kinda the worst."
OSRS players: "AKSHULLLY..."
Bdo players "hold my beer"
Man it's fun, okay?
y tho
@@nathanlevesque7812 I had to grind for at least two hours at hill giants to get to 40 strength
@@Mate_Antal_Zoltan HEY! I SAW YOU BEFORE! I already asked, but is OS Runescape worth playing?
Grinding can be relaxing, entrancing, even cathartic.
"tell me this isn't awesome"
It would be awesome if you didn't destroy my ears XD
UA-cam recommendations from watching Mark Brown, Extra Credits, Mandalore,, Raycevick,
Joseph Anderson, etc... You're just a logical next connection.
I'm honoured to be counted amongst the greats :)
Came from the same content creators. Subbed immediately after this video :D
Other people do this, but you're doing it good. Discovered you today, two minutes in and I subbed. Please keep it up
"Loot boxes, card packs, or whatever you want to call them."
Me: *S U P R I S E M E C H A N I C S*
This video came to me in the perfect time to help solve a gaming dilemma I was having, so thank you for making this. A lot of the games I've been playing lately have felt strange and disjointed to me in ways I couldn't quite put my finger on and this helped me realize exactly what the problems were and how to overcome them.
Sometimes the YT algorithm sucks, sometimes I find gems like you. I'm always interested in various game mechanics and such, and how some games succeed and where and why others fail. I like your analysis on overcoming grind, Not revolutionary info, but you explained it very well. Subbed and shared, Keep up the good work!
I saw your 4X factions video on a recommendation list and it was interesting.
yeah me too
Yeah I came from that as well. As a fan of Stellaris that really made me want to get Endless Legends. I had that on my wishlist for awhile but thought it was just another civ clone.
Zugsta as someone that owns both Stelaris and endless legend/space 2 I can honestly say it's not a clone of civilization. It is substantially better with a better combat system than civilian, more meaningful diplomacy and espionage, less linear tech progression, more unique and flavorful factions, etc...
Really I could go on and on, but I feel that endless legend has one huge advantage over all other 4x games, including stellatis. In stelaris exploration usually results in nothing more than a resource drop. In endless legend you will get a multitude of quests that actively change your priorities and strategy, many of whom have powerful rewards. The faction quests are also cool as they almost always call on you to do something in the minigame that changes your preferred playstyle. The rewards are great enough to incentivise this change (each segment of the quest comes with progressively stronger rewards and completing the quest line is a victory condition).
Frankly, there are no 4x games out that do exploration and questing as well as Endless legend. And certainly none that tell a story half as well.
i agree tho one weakness that bothers me alot is that sometimes ai cant handle all the mechanics well, and results in lack of challenge sometimes. tho its really fun, it shines when played with another human. and i dont have friends in my timezone that play 4x and even if i do, 4x can take a long time to play. thats why sometimes i like to play eu 4 instead. its mechanic is so simple, ai can do well enough against players, compared to civ, or endless legend.
*sigh* when will the day of sentient ai come..... ill trade humanity for a smart civ ai
First video I have seen of yours and I'm very satisfied. Subbed. Thank you for making quality content.
I love how I wanted to know of a game that I saw, and you had it in the description in order of clips.
Real great touch, amazing video.
You don't know true grind until
A: You've played Runescape for more than an hour
or
B: You've tried to get mech parts in Starbound.
C:you played trove for 400 hours
D: Get the materials to build any big build in Minecraft without automated systems.
And YOU DIDN't tried to get saryn prime and kitana prime
Heh you haven't played dungeon defenders 2
Oh man, I remember playing Runescape OldSchool. The game is so grindy that you feel like you are working IRL, not playing a game for fun.
What if I'm just a completionist. I love 100% completeing games, even if it includes a week grind.
It's honestly calming to grind for me, but only if there is a clear reason to do it. I can go and have a livestream or podcast playing in the background that I listen to, while the grind gets easier and easier to do the more I repeat it.
I have gotten stuff like 9999 coins in super mario galaxy 2, which actually takes ages to get, and it doesnt have any reward, but fully completing games is the most satisfying thing for me, so I didn't even mind.
You should try Warframe
Sounds like you like grinding just for the grind, just with extra steps
Try Path of Exile
Dude, this content is so good. I can't believe I'm just seeing this video now, AND I've been following you for a while. Please keep it up
Awesome vid! I watched it two times in a row! Thanks so much for this! Been skimming through it as I dev today.
dude your videos are great. Keep working and you will finally be able to sell out
Have you heard of Paradox Grand Strategy? If so, I'd like to see your analysis of it.
I second that, I have collectively 3000-4000 hours in their games and I happily start a new game as I always have
this
dude, your channel is truly amazing, thank you
your videos are really fun and relaxing to listen to ^^ love it
Balance out your volumes man. Nuclear throne footage has me cutting volume in half, then needing to turn it back up again.
>French
>Proceeds to speak in German.
I love you
Really good and insightful video. Thank you a lot. Now I'm going to grind through your channel.
You provide nicely presented insights and analysis into game mechanics, most often containing new information for me to learn while not being hard to consume.
Low bar of entry, solid rewards.
That is why I am here now.
Agreed
To me, grinding is any activity in a game which is repetitive and takes minimal brain processing power to complete. Off the top of my head, I would probably have to say that Portal 2 is the perfect example of a game without a moment of grinding whatsoever, while Cookie Clicker is literally a grind simulator haha
Indeed, Joxus Art didn't say anything about the subjective experience of grinding, just that its presence is objective.
It’s not a grind in portal 2 until you get stuck and you don’t want to look it up because you want to figure it out yourself...
It has been months
Destiny 2 falls into the Cookie Clicker category as well. Wish I quit sooner.
5:30 I laughed so hard when he started speaking german
Such a lovely vibe from this video. Keep up the good work. :)
Just discovered you and subbed! I'm developing a game as a hobby and can say you really hit on some juicy topics that I agree with completely. Kudos 👍.
Probably been playing too many videogames. XP bars and achievements in non-games actually have the opposite effect - they make something I was more interested in into more of a chore...
There' still a psychological effect of progressing somehow with those bars they always hint at a "something over the horizon is awesome" sensation even if they don't really elicit a response from veteran gamers.
You nailed it there. I was using an app to try and learn Japanese; I got a whole bunch of level ups and could still only say and understand some random basic words (no reading whatsoever). It made me feel like my progress was artificial and I stopped using it... Probably IS because we play video games too much lol.
"Gamification" has become a thing becuase it's a psychologically powerful motivator - the same psychology that gets warped and perverted by pokies/lootboxes/pachinko to encourage addictive behaviour.
IF gamification has an opposite effect on you, that's extremely unusual.
Ben Richards I imagine it's because, as gamers, we are familiar with the tropes and/or desensitised to their effects. I appreciate the similarities but I do think gambling is a separate phenomenon. Personally I don't mind the occasional flutter but I'd never buy a loot box. I don't use microtransactions to avoid grinding either, if the grind is that boring I'll just stop playing the game.
Ben Richards I've tried a couple of apps that "gamify" things like Habitica and Memrise, and I've been doing some research on how some apps use gamification to encourage purchases as well.
Similarly, I often feel dread when I'm looking at that progress bar. Maybe it's because it doesn't go up quite as quickly as I'd like it to; I'm in the habit of getting addicted to a game for short bursts of time, and then quitting altogether once my interest ends.
Maybe it's overexposure and desensitisation to games and their incentive systems, maybe it's something else. I'll probably look into doing some reading up on this.
Just found your channel. Its really cool. I like what you have to say and how you break down games. Keep up the good work!
You changed my "Every game is a grind mindset. My love from gaming kinda reignited because of you. Thanks!
Man, I love your videos so much. Thank you for all your great content. You should mention Oldschool Runescape sometime. Such a great game. Love you :)
i feel like another great part of stardew is that the goal is subjective, there are multiple end games dependant on what style you play, and different ways to get there.
“Grinding” is why I don’t trophy hunt everything anymore, just made some games too tedious for me and ruined that title in my mind
This is a beautiful video, solid tone, thoughtful content, it's not cheesy and covers a lot of ground
Awesome video! Great topic! Brilliant outro? Anyway, congrats!
10:20 I always thought this is where WoW failed miserably. These attempts to spice up the gameplay always seemed pathetic and dumb to me. You're usually using 5 spells while also moving and keeping track of your aggro meter and nearby monsters? Here, sit in this immovable cannon and shoot hordes of enemies with this one button (while everyone around praises you for how awesome you are)!
Some games actually do it right with unexpected twists. In Deus Ex there is a boss battle where you potentially have only half of your abilities and they are not working correctly. And it's awesome.
In the latest CoD there is a moment where you play as a child and all you can do is hide from the enemy while also feverishly trying to figure out how to survive. And it's awesome.
In Red Faction 3 you are sometimes presented with a task to roll in a makeshift car as a gunner. Or pilot a construction mecha and wreck waves of enemies. Guess what? It's awesome.
WoW with its tons of reusable quiet explosions leaving no trace behind and waves of enemies that can do nothing but mindlessly charge only to be killed with one button isn't awesome. It sucks.
I agree. The main thing I disliked about leveling in WoW is that there's hardly any visible progress made - you only get gear, stats and access to new areas - at an ever-slowing pace.
I also really disliked that transportation was really boring once you've already seen every area. Transportation speed upgrades felt satisfying - but they were far too slow to occur. Not to mention the grind for virtually anything at max-level.
@@Muskar2 For me - and thats why I play Classic WOW again - is good example of world where you decide where to go and what to do there. You can grind pretty much whatever you want but also you can just visit places to complete your quest log or just help a friend. Problem here - in this video above especially - is that people forgot that they play MMO game where you interact with each other and thats the fun of it. Not just grind something you want allday.
And of course killing is not easy task as you suggested, you need to put some effort in it. And here it is again, you can invite more people to do stuff together and suddenly it becomes easier.
@@WrynnCZ yeah, the true power of wow's accessibility is that it meant finding a community of cool people was actually not that hard. It would have been nothing without that, and over the years they stripped away any need to actually interact with anyone ever. Worst mistake they could have made
You're comparing WoW to completely different types of games. Those other games didn't 'overcome' WoW's problem, they never even had the problem to begin with.
@@WrynnCZ "Why do I have to interact with other people in an mmo(rpg)?"
"Grinding is... Kind of the worst"
*SHOWS FOOTAGE OF WARFRAME*
ulises982011 ok but fashion frame
Trying to get a reliable source of aargon crystals
@@jackdisbury1047 Iso Vaults
Hey mate. This here is the first video I've watched on your channel and I love it. I analyse games and find your observations to be very enlightening. Looking forward to more videos. :)
That was a great analysis good job dude
"Grinding is the worst" *Shows Pokemon and Warframe*
Yeah, me too
I appreciate your other tabs at 5:14
I really love to see both sides of gamedesign, seeing you, a player, figure such stuff out and seeing extra credits, actual game devs, talk about it
This is why I love Super Mario RPG. You can get to a max level, without grinding the whole way through. While the game has an almost endless attention to detail. Whether it be with sub stories, Easter eggs, dialog or other things.
Very well made video! I hope to see more of you soon!
Nuclear. It's new, and it's clear!
Adam: Great games beat the grind
Terraria being a great game and a grindy one: *Sweats profusely*
I think the trick with terraria is that the good stuff is rare, but not too rare (with exceptions)
@@mihneaiordan1813 Tell that to the drop rate of biome keys
@@Drakonus_ nah its fine tbh. You get them looking for other things
@@mihneaiordan1813 rod of discord would like to have a word with you
Great video man, just earned a new subscriber!
Just found your channel. What a great content subbed and thank you!
I think we have different meanigs for "Grinding" mate... Doing an action over and over because that is how the game is means the game is repetitive, having to do something lots of times to progress in the game is grinding
Finally someone else who knows that XCOM is basically GOAT.
for sure. I’m normally into rpgs more than anything else, but XCOM still manages to be my favorite game franchise of all time just by being so damn excellent.
See. I can't play xcom because it doesn't feel to me like i personally make any progress. Because i have playes 10000's hours of strategy games if i sit and go "i'm going to do my absolute best at this game" Because its turn based game all i end up doing is perfecting every turn and taking 3 hours every mission. OOOR i go for the "complete every mission as fast as possible" but i end up being frustrated about the inefficiency and with xcom specifically i can't find a happy medium. Same with alot of strategy games nowadays. Alot of the older ones like AOE, and the old total war games i can go back to and play happily even after a 1000 hours.
i Just can't find a happy balance with the modern strategies and it makes me sad :(
Old xcom was good though :D
Xcom 2 is great fun but i think that anyone who's ever played it can agree that while it's awesome, it's also complete and utter bullshit at the same time. xD
Like yeah sure, my sharpshooters routinely miss shots with 95% hit chance on a target that's like 10 meters away behind half cover, but a common footsoldier in the alien army is able to consistently snipe my soldiers from across the map when they're behind full cover with a frigging pistol. Okay game. Sure. Whatever you say.
Or how alien soldiers seem to be able to consistently hit my soldiers no matter what level of cover they're behind, meanwhile i sometimes get something ridiculous like 35% hit chance on a target the size of a small car even though i have them completely flanked with a clear line of sight between my soldier and the enemy. Hmmmmmmmmmmm. Nothing fishy going on here at all! No sir! xD
Total War and Starcraft are the best strategy games (ok I've never played XCOM, but I love those two series)
try Factorio i have over 1350hrs ... and still injoy playing ..... and usually get reminded of other responsibilities that i should be attending to while im playing, if its not 3 am allrdy :).... in short Factorio has no player skill ceiling ... once you think youve got one part down pat another game mechanic presents its self, to allow your imagination to go nuts. in short AWSOME !!!!
Every time I see one of your uploads I make time out of my day for it lol. Your commentary on everything is damn amazing and your the entire reason that I have played Disco Elysium lol. Have an amazing day, man
This is super interesting I've never considered grinding being a state of mind before!
“Before we talk about great games let’s take a look at our great sponsor of the video Raid Shadow Legends”
"You know there are other people who do this right?"
Yeah, I watch all of them.
I'm a design addict
Great video. Made me think about why I enjoy the games I enjoy
Love everything about this. Head on straight and a good wit.
7:34 this list. This list has me rolling
suprised runescape wasn`t in here :P
runescape is a grinding simulator at its core, and i still enjoy every second of it
been playing since 2005, and still am both osrs and rs3
Same. I haven't seen another game as grindy as runescape, and even then being a popular one.
this is a real man's grind here buddy woooof
Also playing both runescape osrs on mobile and rs3 on pc
I loved this video so much I subscribed immediately and now I'm going to waste a whole bunch of valuable modding time watching and listening to your frankly soothing voice.
I feel like you and The Act Man would get along really well. I also subscribed
I feel that the very last point brought up does the best job of explaining what grind is, which is that the game no longer surprises you. Or as I like to phrase it, the game fails to present a novel experience, you're no longer engaged in what you are doing.
What counts as a novel experience differs depending on each player's mindset, which is why it's hard to pinpoint what's grindy or not. Difficulty, mastery, story, progression, social interaction and gameplay mechanics are a few of the many aspects that drive player engagement, but everyone values each aspect differently. This is why it's difficult to use sentences like "doing the same thing over and over" to describe grind, because what counts as "the same thing" is different depending on who you ask. Examples in this video of games that don't feel grindy, like Stardew Valley and the roguelikes, they all felt unbelievably grindy to me personally.
Meanwhile one example of grind in this video, Pokémon, has never felt even the slightest bit grindy to me. If you go straight from gym to gym, you're going to be underleveled and be forced to farm wild pokémon for experience, which is grindy. But I always explore a lot between each gym, and with that exploration comes a lot of trainer battles and varied environment, which is a far less repetitive way to earn experience compared to running back and forth in the same spot of tall grass. Everything is very easy to me because I'm typically overleveled, which is pictured as something that's bad in the video, but that's not something that bothers me in Pokémon because it's not a game I play to be challenged in.
"Grind is a state of mind, not a state of gameplay"
Have you ever heard of Warframe? That game is grind. Only grind. Unless you pay money. But its usually a fun grind.
I agree. I love the game, but it is grindy AF.
answering 2 months later lol, but yeag Warframe is fun because it has "juice" like the video talked about. Weapon effects are satisfying, and you really do feel like a ninja when you can bullet jump or jump on walls
If the game is grind and it's fun that means it's not grind, it's actual gameplay and you shouldn't feel like you are grinding because you are just playing the game.
That's like saying playing Mario is grind because it's basically the same.
@@helgenlane it's really repetitive, but it's fun to repeat. Grind isn't restricted to being a bad thing
For example, speedrunners grindnto improve their times, burner only do it because it's fun
There was a small clip of Warframe at the beginning of the video, and he had Frost Prime, so I assume he knows it and has been playing probably for quite awhile
*Me:* Wow great video man with awesome points made throughout. Really makes me want to go pick up some of the great games you showed off!
*Also me:* Continues, instead, to go for those 99s in Old School Rumeacape day in day out. Only 3600 more hours to go!
Great video 🙂 glad to hear they channel is doing good 🙂
Who else got this recommended after 7 months?
Me
same
9 here
Almost a year.
10 months
11 here
"Do these help you learn French?"
*Starts speaking German; "No it doesn't. It's really, really bad"*
I always used the term "grinding" specifically for when I spent almost all my time leveling up, usually towards the end of a level based RPG
i really like the reminder that the grinding mindset is within the player. some games others would find too much of a grind are nice for me, i can go into a trance and feel like i'm still doing something productive. it's helped me a lot in times of high anxiety and stress. on the other hand, i've recently picked up stardew valley and found myself feeling the tired grind in the mines. i fall into loops very easily, even ones that aren't fun, so when that happens i have to consciously stop and re-evaluate why i'm feeling this way. usually it just means i need to put the game down, but i do like a little modding to help me out as well! it's all about introspection for me, and keeping my obsessive brain at a healthy balance. i've also learned the psychology around predatory surprise mechanics, and i'm good at not letting them hook into me!