Wherein Ben and Holly Berkley Fletcher welcome Jonathan Rauch to discuss his new book on the role of Christianity in American democracy. Find Jon's book here: yalebooks.yale...
One problem when the different denominations disagree and pick and choose what it means to be a Christian and what is right and wrong. It means you bring your moral compass to the religion and not the other way around. For centuries Christianity has been discarding aspects of what it means to be a Christian.
I really appreciate this discussion. I have close family members who are evangelical Christians and who have voted for Trump in the last three presidential elections. They would explain that their votes were overwhelmingly motivated by a desire to ban abortion. For years, they have stated that God comes before country. I have always wondered if this meant different things to different Christians or if it was an admission that they believe biblical law should supersede the Constitution.
Jesus was crucified because he challenged the existing structure of power. Loving God with your entire being and your neighbor as yourself is radical. Today, building a global platform for digital democracy so we could vote for principles and policies instead of personalities and political parties would be radical.
Jesus was crucified because he testified that the ways of the world are evil. Jesus would warn ppl that they would face the judgment one day and face the wrath of God if they did not reprove their ways .
The ways of the world are both good and evil. Jesus also bore witness to the possibility of being spiritually reborn. When we are, we realize our oneness with each other, and with God. Jesus prayed for that to happen.
Wow I resonate with every part of Holly's learned religious philosophy. Outside of cloistered academia, I think it impossible to separate Christianity from the diabolical power structures that use it to their own ends. Being uninterested "in debating the sins of Christianity in the way it has been perverted by organizations in the past" is just dodging The Main Point that it's happening again right now in the present. You can take the high ground their religion is good and disconnected from its many perversions, and sure we can all get our reward in heaven, but that doesn't help us stop these monsters now. That's not a muscular enough response for me.
Agree with Mark. How can someone say they love their neighbors as themselves if they are white supremacists, or advocate a policy of America first? Those behaviors are diseased.
It is folly to rely on one interpretation of a series of ancient texts. Rauch's interpretation is fine on the surface but no more valid than prosperity gospel hucksters. Using a legend as a foundation of a nation state is a horrible idea.
While the Mormon aspects I agree are an important example, the reality is much more nuanced. In some sense this only came after they realized they lost the cultural war on gay marriage, after they invested as a group, more than many other church group in prop 22/ prop 8. There was huge backlash and the leader referenced by the host is a rather smart cookie (and very anti lgbt). He knew they could lose a lot within their very large corporation and university without a codified exemption. I still think it was a good model, bc it refocuses concepts of religious freedom from feeling like they have to act to being willing to accept. However they also haven’t fully embraced such acceptance for the trans community into Utah state law. The church has way more control in Utah and its members to usher a change than most other large religious groups in the US. It is really a unique case. I will also note that Mormons don’t always laugh off the criticisms. They are non confrontational as a group and church, survived through a lot of political savvy but also holds a deep seated persecution complex. I don’t say to be critical - I’m a non active but heritage mormon who appreciates the inherent contradictions.
Many ppl strip Christianity of its defining features which is the contrast between the righteous who walk according to the Spirit and the wicked who walk according to their lower degraded lusts and the disposition God has towards them distinctly and their destiny which is heaven or hell. Yes , we see compassion and kindness and the center of the Love of God , but to get rid of that dynamic makes the love that God wants from us lose its essence as spoken of in the bible
1. If Patriarch Kyrill takes you up on your offer, I volunteer to help prep you. I am a former Soviet analyst and an Orthodox Christian with a theology degree from St Vladimir's Seminary. 2. Eastern Orthodoxy is now on the front line of the reorganization of American Christianity. Since the end of the pandemic, we have seen a huge and growing influx of inquirers and catechumens. 3. The inability of the current, MAGA-dominated GOP to negotiate win-win outcomes is mostly due to Donald Trump's perverse worldview. Trump is absolutely committed to a zero-sum view of the world. He finds the very idea of a win-win outcome to be both absurd and repugnant. He can never feel he has won unless he makes someone else lose. Furthermore, he reflexively takes every opportunity to incite division and conflict, even when it's not in his political interest. I think it might become easier for Evangelical churches that are now dominated by Trumpism to reform themselves after Trump himself is off the scene. 4. I think I agree with Jonathan about the relationship between liberalism and Christianity. Liberalism could not have arisen in a pre-Christian world. It is rooted in values it inherited from Christianity. I fear that the religiously motivated factions of the MAGA movement are trying to take us back to a pre-Christian pagan culture.
The disussion of peace-making and the Mormon approach to politics made me wonder if there's anything which the Jewish State (Israel) could learn from the "Mormon state" (Utah). Note in this regard Ben's important point that "you need a partner."
I disagree with Holly. I think most fundamentalist Christian sects regard Baptists as a mainline Protestant church that is surely lost because of its 'once saved always saved' doctrine, and that the Methodists are lukewarm. I probably won't buy Jonathan's book, but I will request it at my local library. His discussion of his book reminds me of the teachings of a British man named Os Guinness, who believes that western civilization is in what he calls a "civilizational moment". A turning point that will determine whether we will continue or come to an end like other great civilizations in history.
No, I don't know what you mean when you refer to wokeness by invoking an unspecified actor invoked in passive voice. Identifying a religion of "what's called wokeness" shows roughly the same rigour as "what's called evolutionism". I sincerely hope it's an oversight rather than embracing the bad faith argument, although considering that the overall argument is based on the "god shaped hole" premise that is often supported by bad faith criticisms of so called "wokeness" and "evolutionism", I don't have too much hope.
Hey Unfortunately you have argued the no true Scotsman fallacy. The many different sects within xianity all interpret the Bible differently. Methodists and Catholics disagree about the Trinity and the role of the Virgin Mary and then their is the Mormons. They all cannot be correct . Whilst the Beatitudes and other sayings of Jesus are a great way to live your life a number of other religions, cultures and societies not based on the Jewish, Christian and Islamic faith systems but profess similar rules about how to live your life and care for the poor etc. The point is You don’t need a god to be good. That said I enjoyed the discussion
Holly-I’m reading Poisonwood Bible and I hesitated to mention it until I heard your parents were missionaries! I’m going to read all Kingsolver’s novels, read Heather Cox Richardson’s newsletters, dip in and watch you guys and try to stay centered because 1st season of this stupid show was upsetting enough-I’m pacing myself this time. Jesus was a Jew. I don’t think most rabbis are supposed to start new religions. Also, he whipped people like the oligarchs and hung out with lepers and prostitutes. Gaia seems to be a bc more powerful force than Jesus these days anyway.
@@arimathean4128 My comment's intention is to say that I do not think Jesus would have started a new religion. As in it is not something I think a Jewish Rabbi would do.
One problem when the different denominations disagree and pick and choose what it means to be a Christian and what is right and wrong. It means you bring your moral compass to the religion and not the other way around. For centuries Christianity has been discarding aspects of what it means to be a Christian.
It’s very clear if you read scripture in its context. A lot more black and white than many ppl think .
I read 20+ books last year and Jonathan Rauch's "The Constitution of Knowledge" was the best.
I really appreciate this discussion. I have close family members who are evangelical Christians and who have voted for Trump in the last three presidential elections. They would explain that their votes were overwhelmingly motivated by a desire to ban abortion. For years, they have stated that God comes before country. I have always wondered if this meant different things to different Christians or if it was an admission that they believe biblical law should supersede the Constitution.
Like you said, whatever leads to forced birth fascism. The cruelty is the point with these insane domestic terrorists.
Jesus was crucified because he challenged the existing structure of power. Loving God with your entire being and your neighbor as yourself is radical. Today, building a global platform for digital democracy so we could vote for principles and policies instead of personalities and political parties would be radical.
Jesus was crucified because he testified that the ways of the world are evil. Jesus would warn ppl that they would face the judgment one day and face the wrath of God if they did not reprove their ways .
The ways of the world are both good and evil. Jesus also bore witness to the possibility of being spiritually reborn. When we are, we realize our oneness with each other, and with God. Jesus prayed for that to happen.
Amen
Wow I resonate with every part of Holly's learned religious philosophy.
Outside of cloistered academia, I think it impossible to separate Christianity from the diabolical power structures that use it to their own ends. Being uninterested "in debating the sins of Christianity in the way it has been perverted by organizations in the past" is just dodging The Main Point that it's happening again right now in the present. You can take the high ground their religion is good and disconnected from its many perversions, and sure we can all get our reward in heaven, but that doesn't help us stop these monsters now. That's not a muscular enough response for me.
Agree with Mark. How can someone say they love their neighbors as themselves if they are white supremacists, or advocate a policy of America first? Those behaviors are diseased.
Thank you all. Very good discussion
It is folly to rely on one interpretation of a series of ancient texts. Rauch's interpretation is fine on the surface but no more valid than prosperity gospel hucksters. Using a legend as a foundation of a nation state is a horrible idea.
Glad you're feeling better Ben.
This book sounds like a good companion volume to Putnam's "Bowling Alone."
While the Mormon aspects I agree are an important example, the reality is much more nuanced. In some sense this only came after they realized they lost the cultural war on gay marriage, after they invested as a group, more than many other church group in prop 22/ prop 8. There was huge backlash and the leader referenced by the host is a rather smart cookie (and very anti lgbt). He knew they could lose a lot within their very large corporation and university without a codified exemption. I still think it was a good model, bc it refocuses concepts of religious freedom from feeling like they have to act to being willing to accept. However they also haven’t fully embraced such acceptance for the trans community into Utah state law. The church has way more control in Utah and its members to usher a change than most other large religious groups in the US. It is really a unique case. I will also note that Mormons don’t always laugh off the criticisms. They are non confrontational as a group and church, survived through a lot of political savvy but also holds a deep seated persecution complex. I don’t say to be critical - I’m a non active but heritage mormon who appreciates the inherent contradictions.
Many ppl strip Christianity of its defining features which is the contrast between the righteous who walk according to the Spirit and the wicked who walk according to their lower degraded lusts and the disposition God has towards them distinctly and their destiny which is heaven or hell.
Yes , we see compassion and kindness and the center of the Love of God , but to get rid of that dynamic makes the love that God wants from us lose its essence as spoken of in the bible
1. If Patriarch Kyrill takes you up on your offer, I volunteer to help prep you. I am a former Soviet analyst and an Orthodox Christian with a theology degree from St Vladimir's Seminary.
2. Eastern Orthodoxy is now on the front line of the reorganization of American Christianity. Since the end of the pandemic, we have seen a huge and growing influx of inquirers and catechumens.
3. The inability of the current, MAGA-dominated GOP to negotiate win-win outcomes is mostly due to Donald Trump's perverse worldview. Trump is absolutely committed to a zero-sum view of the world. He finds the very idea of a win-win outcome to be both absurd and repugnant. He can never feel he has won unless he makes someone else lose. Furthermore, he reflexively takes every opportunity to incite division and conflict, even when it's not in his political interest. I think it might become easier for Evangelical churches that are now dominated by Trumpism to reform themselves after Trump himself is off the scene.
4. I think I agree with Jonathan about the relationship between liberalism and Christianity. Liberalism could not have arisen in a pre-Christian world. It is rooted in values it inherited from Christianity. I fear that the religiously motivated factions of the MAGA movement are trying to take us back to a pre-Christian pagan culture.
The disussion of peace-making and the Mormon approach to politics made me wonder if there's anything which the Jewish State (Israel) could learn from the "Mormon state" (Utah). Note in this regard Ben's important point that "you need a partner."
Well, the Mormons didn’t kill the children. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_Massacre
I disagree with Holly. I think most fundamentalist Christian sects regard Baptists as a mainline Protestant church that is surely lost because of its 'once saved always saved' doctrine, and that the Methodists are lukewarm. I probably won't buy Jonathan's book, but I will request it at my local library. His discussion of his book reminds me of the teachings of a British man named Os Guinness, who believes that western civilization is in what he calls a "civilizational moment". A turning point that will determine whether we will continue or come to an end like other great civilizations in history.
So in Europe religion is not needed as a social cement but in America it is?
No, I don't know what you mean when you refer to wokeness by invoking an unspecified actor invoked in passive voice.
Identifying a religion of "what's called wokeness" shows roughly the same rigour as "what's called evolutionism".
I sincerely hope it's an oversight rather than embracing the bad faith argument, although considering that the overall argument is based on the "god shaped hole" premise that is often supported by bad faith criticisms of so called "wokeness" and "evolutionism", I don't have too much hope.
Hey Unfortunately you have argued the no true Scotsman fallacy. The many different sects within xianity all interpret the Bible differently. Methodists and Catholics disagree about the Trinity and the role of the Virgin Mary and then their is the Mormons. They all cannot be correct . Whilst the Beatitudes and other sayings of Jesus are a great way to live your life a number of other religions, cultures and societies not based on the Jewish, Christian and Islamic faith systems but profess similar rules about how to live your life and care for the poor etc. The point is You don’t need a god to be good. That said I enjoyed the discussion
To all the LDS stuff - no. Just no. The de facto theocracy that is the State of Utah should be enough of a starting point.
Holly-I’m reading Poisonwood Bible and I hesitated to mention it until I heard your parents were missionaries!
I’m going to read all Kingsolver’s novels, read Heather Cox Richardson’s newsletters, dip in and watch you guys and try to stay centered because 1st season of this stupid show was upsetting enough-I’m pacing myself this time.
Jesus was a Jew. I don’t think most rabbis are supposed to start new religions. Also, he whipped people like the oligarchs and hung out with lepers and prostitutes.
Gaia seems to be a bc more powerful force than Jesus these days anyway.
Jesus did not start a new religion. Nor did Paul. They were both well within the bounds of mainstream Second Temple Judaism.
@@arimathean4128 My comment's intention is to say that I do not think Jesus would have started a new religion. As in it is not something I think a Jewish Rabbi would do.