@@aongtingco then you should be trash, because you tehnically are. But still, the law counts you as human aren't you? Should we put that law into stupid category?
I find it weird that people fixate so much on the tomato when there are a ton of plants that are technically fruits, like every squash, and every pepper. It’s like how everybody knows that Coca Cola used to have cocaine in it even though that’s not quite accurate it was unrefined Coca leaf as far as I’m aware, but nobody mentions that 7up originally contained lithium
this. olives are fruit. eggplant is a fruit. and so on. every vegetable that develops from a flower is a fruit. but nooo tomato is the only fruit that goes on pizza!11!!
The question wether tomatoes are a fruit or a vegetable is a classic category mistake. You can only ask that question if you speak of fruit as a botanical term and vegetable as a culinary term. And because fruit has both a culinary and botanical meaning you could think that the question has an answer. But in reality it's like asking wether a newspaper is for reading or to wrap fish in.
Depends on what newspaper you're talking about. I can think of quite a few that should _only_ be used to wrap fish or, better, to line the bottom of a parrot's cage.
@@tile7769 technically it's *newsprint* paper, not newspaper that fish traditionally gets wrapped in - and ironically, newsprint paper doesn't have any printing on it at all!
It's a vegetable either way. A vegetable is an edible plant. Tomatoes are an edible plant, so it is a vegetable. A fruit is a type of vegetable, it's a vegetable and a fruit. A berry is a type of fruit, it's a vegetable and a fruit and a berry.
I've had a delicious bread and tomato salad. I seem to remember that it had mayo in it, and was really like a deconstructed tomato sandwich. Which is delicious if the ingredients are. Otherwise, not.
I make a pretty good pineapple, mango, and green grape fruit salad with tomato, cucumber, olives and fresh mozzarella. Dressed with some lime juice and balsamic glaze.
In the UK there was a similar court case with Jaffa cakes - are they a cake or are they a biscuit (cookie), also due to tax on one and not the other. The case was won with the argument that a cake, when left out goes hard and a biscuit when left out goes soft. Jaffa cakes grew hard and were thus cakes and not biscuits.
@@vianjelos Under UK law, VAT on cakes and biscuits is set at 0%. However, the law states that if a biscuit (cookie) is partly or wholly covered in chocolate then it is to be taxed at the standard rate because it's a fraction over the border from an everyday necessity to a luxury.
Listen, Ive forgotten more stuff about plants than most people will ever bother to learn, and yet SOMEFIGGINHOW it absolutely never occurred to me, or was pointed out to me by a book or my peers, that the squash and cucumber would be part of the tomato argument. This is why I love your content Max! I pretty much always learn something new, every time I watch you!
In the British Isles we just say "root vegetables" but arbitrary exceptions are constantly made for stuff that shouldn't count towards your five-a-day. This largely comes down to whether it's served as the main carbohydrate (e.g. potatoes) or alongside it (turnips).
@C K I know what you mean. Sometimes it gets taken over by popular language names. Like, we say “Codfish Cakes/Codfish Fritter”. But Americans only familiar with the Spanish name “Bacalao Fritos”. And it bugs me. Or pigeon peas, gandules. And ppl try to correct me 🙄 I’m not going to say it in another language when I or my folks make it. “I know the spanish name, but I’m saying it in english.”
I have often wondered why (American) people make a big deal over whether tomatoes are "really" fruit, although they never address whether cucumbers, eggplants, squash, okra are fruit (which they are, botanically). So the whole tomato kerfuffle is a cultural echo of a 19th century Supreme Court case over tariffs? Huh.
Every country has a story like it. In Germany it was beer, in France bread, and in England and Scotland it was sugar. Ever wonder why shortbread keeps the name bread even though it’s a biscuit? Tariffs.
It's just two terms from different fields that have different meaning, but are written the same way. No need to berate a culture just because they like arguing about by deliberately mixing up contexts.
The word "fruit" is polysemic, and refers to either 1) botanical part of a plant (as opposed to stem, root, etc.) or 2) a culinary category for certain ingredients (as opposed to spice, vegetable, etc.). Tomato (and cucumber, bell pepper, etc.) is a fruit in the meaning #1, but not in the meaning #2, but people have a really hard time noticing this because they believe that words have a single fixed meaning. [At least in Portuguese I don't need to handle this sort of discussion, as #1 = fruto and #2 = fruta. Related albeit different words for different concepts.]
In the most technical sense, "vegetable" is plant matter. All fruit fall within this set. However, the subset "fruit" only includes those parts of the plant that contain seeds.
Or, as I like to say: In botanical terms, a tomato is a fruit. In culinary terms, a tomato is a vegetable. Also, I am very happy that in my native language, there is a correspondent culinary term for fruit that is distinct from the botanical term. Makes the whole question a lot easier. :)
@@dansvidenko2727 My native language is German and the words are "Frucht" (fruit - botanical) and "Obst" (fruit - culinary). The word "Gemüse" means vegetables. So a tomato would be a "Frucht" and a "Gemüse", but not an "Obst". "Frucht" and "Obst" are often used interchangeably, so you could say both "Fruchtsalat" or "Obstsalat" when referring to a fruit salad, although in the region where I am from, "Obstsalat" is more common. However, it would sounds pretty weird if a parent told their kids: "Esst eure Früchte!" ("Eat your fruits!") instead of "Esst euer Obst!"
@@UserJWR haha that’s great! Thank you for filling me in, you learn something new every day. My first (not native) language was Russian and there is only one word for fruit but it’s pronounced very similarly to the German word for botanical fruit
@@UserJWR If _Frucht_ is botanical and _Obst_ is culinary and tomato is both _Frucht_ and _Gemüse,_ surely the question hasn't been made easier at all, no? 😅 I mean, the botanical term is useless if it classifies non-botanical fruit that should be classified by the culinary term.
@@RuthvenMurgatroyd How a plant *should* be classified depends entirely on the context. If you want to talk about growing and harvesting tomato, I would guess the botanical term is more useful. If you talk about what to put in the dish you're making, the culinary term is more useful. It's also important to note that in both English and German, the term vegetable/Gemüse is purely culinary and has no botanical equivalent.
Call salsa "fruit salad" if you like. But "salsa" often contains onions, garlic, sometimes corn, and sometimes herbs like cilantro and spices like cayenne or black pepper, which real fruit salads never contain, and salsa is used like a savory sauce or condiment to put on top of or mix with savory foods like beans and rice -- not eaten by itself like a real fruit salad.
@@deewesthill1213not buying this argument. I've seen 'fruit salad' with everything from herbs (such as mint), spices (such as cinnamon, black pepper, and even cloves), and non-botanicals like bacon and cheese. Not all fruit salads are just chopped fruit in a bowl. On point 2, you can have hot fruit salad on composed items (like compotes and baked goods), or eat raw savory fruit salad with a simple vessel (i.e. pico de gallo and chips). The real distinction culinarily is sugar content. And even that absolute falls apart with sugar cane and sugar beets.
@@ChironetaMaxima Where did you see or eat such "fruit salads"? It must be outside the US. I have never heard of anyone mixing bacon or cheese, cinnamon, black pepper, or cloves with fruit, and calling it "fruit salad", and i doubt most people, in this country at least, would want to eat it. A "Hawaiian" pizza with bacon, cheese, pineapple is still a pizza and not a "salad".
Tomatoes are botanical fruits because they have a pericarp (which develops from the ovary) encloses the seeds… true of many culinary fruits and vegetables This is why strawberries aren’t really fruits in a botanical sense though- the yummy part we like to eat is actually a receptacle where hundreds of tiny fruits come out of (the tiny strawberry “seeds” on the outside- those are actually the fruits!) Apples are also not true fruits either, their flesh is mostly receptacle tissue rather than pericarp
Wait... So from a fetal development perspective, if animals where plants, then animals that lay eggs would be fruits and those that have live birth would be vegetables?
apples are fruits, they are pomes which is a type of stone fruit. They are not, however, berries which would require the seeds being directly against the fruit. Apples have an endocarp (core).
@@seronymus a type of stone fruit (peaches, plums). pomes dont have a pit like stone fruits though, but both have an endocarp that separates the seeds from the flesh of the fruit. The endocarp in stone fruits is the pit, in pomes its the core.
Reminds me of the incident that a Sikh man once went against the segregation laws and then used historical and genetic accounts to prove that he was an Aryan. The court denounced it saying that even though technically he is an Aryan he wasn't considered "white" in colloquial language.
It's "DND Stats explained with tomatoes". Strength is being able to crush a tomato, Constitution is being able to eat a rotten tomato, Charisma is being able to sell someone a tomato based fruit salad. I forget what Agility was.
Culinarily, tomatoes are vegetables. Flavor profile is more in line with vegetables, and pairs well with them typically. A tomato and an onion can work better than a tomato and an apple.
fruit, botanically, means the fleshy growth around a plants seed, or around the reproductive vector of said plant. culinarily, they are any sweet botanical fruit. vegetable is referring to any edible part of the plant
you could also claim that mushrooms or edible fungus like wood ear are also fruit as they are surrounding the reproductive vector of their species, the spore
I have always described tomatoes as my favorite vegetable, and everyone corrects me. I am eternally grateful for this knowledge and come-back, O' Wise Sage of the Kitchen.
The way I understand it, and I'm no botanist, is: 1. If it's an edible part of a plant, it's a vegetable. 2. If it has seeds, it's **also** a fruit. Thus: 1. All fruits are vegetables, but not all vegetables are fruits. 2. Tomatoes are, therefore, fruits. (But also technically a vegetable, as is every edible part of a plant.)
It's because there is a scientific definition and a culinary definition. A fruit is like a snack in the culinary sense while a vegetable is more of an ingredient... you "can" just eat a veggie... but it's more of an ingredient...
No, mainly due to the sugar content and use of pectin to set the preserves. But if you wanted to add pectin to your pasta sauce I reckon you could figure out how to make pasta preserves. Whether you should or not is another matter.
Botanically speaking it's a fruit, but if this is the standard then cucumbers, zucchini, peppers, corn, peas, beans, rice, peanuts & even grains like oats & wheat are fruit as well ( the plants embryonic offspring).
Vegetable is a culinary term, not a scientific one. Tomatoes are fruiting bodies of the tomato plant, and a tomato is a vegetable for cooking. That's why mushrooms are vegetables despite being an entirely different kingdom of life
@@whiteeye3453 do strawberries grow on trees? any particular reason we should not treat them as fruit? tomatoes can be pretty sweet. do they stop being veggies? many fruits you wouldn't call sweet
Botanically, a tomato is only a fruit in that it grows from a ripened flower ovary and is the fleshy part of a plant that surrounds its seeds. However, this definition also applies to other foods that people normally regard as vegetables (e.g., avocados, eggplants, cucumbers, red & green peppers, zucchini, butternut squash), and further expands to plants that are actually inedible and even poisonous to humans, such as acorns and dandelions. Hence, since the botanical definition is not really about food at all, I think it’s more accurate to define the tomato as a vegetable. On a separate thought regarding the SCOTUS ruling, the reason this happened in the first place is because taxes were being placed on vegetables but not fruits, and so businessman John Nix argued for the fruit-classification to avoid paying extra money. Yet, supposed now that the tax was instead placed on fruits but not veggies and that tomatoes were then taxed as fruits. In that reality, we all know that Nix would then be arguing that tomatoes were vegetables to avoid the tax. Hence, the case was never about science and botany to him, but was all about the money. Ergo, the court saw right through him and unanimously agreed that tomatoes were vegetables because of the “culinary” way they were typically consumed.
FFS. Tomatoes are a savoury fruit, along with cucumbers and all squashes. Beans and peas, being seeds, technically fall into the "fruit" category as well. Every gardener in the world knows this. There is no law that says "fruits" have to be sweet! What about acorns (bitter) and beechnuts (nutty).
And this case is cited to this day when dealing with common use of a word vs dictionary definition. People always think of this as a nothing little case, if they even know of it, but such a small distinction can have a major impact in law going forward. As we say in the restaurant, do it for them once and they will expect it every time, but when you are talking law they have every right to do so. Such an interesting piece of history, so glad to see someone finally covering it.
It’s because “vegetable” isn’t a scientific term it’s a culinary term, most of our vegetable are leafy greens, but many are fruits and roots as well, it’s because one term is for science and one’s for cooking
Strength is being able to throw a tomato Dexterity is being able to dodge a tomato Constitution is being able to eat a bad tomato Intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit Wisdom is not putting a tomato in a fruit salad Charisma is being able to sell a tomato based fruit salad
By definition, they are both, as a "vegetable" by definition is any edible part of a plant, thus all fruits are vegetables, but not all vegetables are fruits.
I just got my groceries. It's peach, nectarine and plum season so I got some to make into stewed fruit. I have a plum tree but gave all my plums to my Mum for jam!
Also, technically a vegetable is classified as an edible portion of a plant, and a fruit is the plant’s seed pod. Technically the seed pod is part of the plant, so all fruits are vegetables, but not all vegetables are fruits.
I'm from Kansas, USA, so tomatoes are legally a vegetable here because they can be eaten with ranch dressing. 😊 That's our system for sorting fruits and veggies.
By definition a fruit is a plant part that holds seeds. while a vegetable is any other edible plant part - like tubers, leaves, stems and so on. Strawberries are a curious thing as the fleshy part itself doesn't contain seeds - they sit on the outside, comparable to hazlenuts - that's why strawberries are nuts, or rather aggregate fruits holding nuts.
The purpose of the tariff was to protect domestic crops, so the exemption on fruit should have been clarified as an exemption on tropical fruit, which unlike tomatos would be harder to produce domestically.
Scientifically they're also a vegetable, because all fruits are vegetables. "Fruits" are a subset of "Vegetables" just like "Grains" or "Roots". Square Rectangle
This all could have been avoided if English had stuck to it's germanic roots, in Dutch the word for the botanical fruit and colloquial fruit are different xD
America has a lot of things like this where the government insists upon something that is technically wrong. The state of Indiana, where I live, legislated the value of pi to exactly 3.
It's completely up to what it does in most foods in one culture. Case and point: Koreans will categorize chili peppers as vegetables when they are fresh. Koreans will think of them as spices only when it is dried and crushed into gochugaru powder.
Tomato is a vegetable. A vegetable is an edible plant or the edible portion of a plant. That's what a tomato is. A fruit is a type of vegetable, fleshy and containing seeds. The tomato is a fruit type vegetable. A berry is a type of fruit that has multiple seeds. The tomato is a berry type fruit type vegetable.
Learning about this gave me the same feeling as learning bees are _technically_ legally considered fish in the state of California. This happened specifically only because of the weird interaction between two laws: one where it protects various forms of wildlife and plant life native to California and a legal definition under California law defining fish as, but not limited to, invertebrates. The first law doesn't explicitly include insects, but does include fish. With bees being invertebrates, it was legally and successfully argued that bees should be apart of that first laws' protections
For a more modern version: The UK had a similar deliberation over whether Jaffa Cakes, are cakes or biscuits. Same reason, one had tax one didn’t. I believe they decided it was a cake.
I have a cookbook titled "Vegetariana". There's a small insert about this very same case with many of the details stated here. The deciding factor that led to tomatoes being declared vegetables, however, is that they are never used in desserts. That struck me as specious reasoning. By that logic, you could declare apples as meat when you cook them with pork or carrots as fruits because they can be baked in cakes.
no, the government simply created two different categories of fruit: botanical and culinary. the law the court decided on was about food taxation, not botany.
There's no such thing as a vegetable, botanically speaking. It's not a botanical term. Literally nothing in existence is a vegetable if a tomato isn't. Tomatoes and other vegetables are vegetables from a culinary perspective but have other categorizations in botany.
It's a berry according to biological . Also berry are cucumbers and watermelons . Scientifically speaking all plants that had a lot of seeds inside are Berries 😊
I guess ultimately it all comes down to the perspective on how certain plants are being consume/process by norms. For examples, stuff like pees, squashes, etc all needed (or mostly) to be cook/process before eating like most common vegetables, therefore they're treated more as vegetables instead of the fruits that we just grabbed and eat. Scientific facts are often too detached and vague to the general understanding of the masses.
Furthermore, botanically speaking bananas, cucumbers and watermelons are berries, but strawberries are not! The fruits of the strawberry are actually the individual seeds on the outside. And if I remember correctly, pineapple is a bunch of small fruits stuck together. This is because botanics doesn't care if you use it for timber, fabric of fry it in a pan with spices. It just tries to make it evolutionarily and structurally make sense.
This is exactly true. Keep in mind - fruit is a culinary AND botanical term, but vegetable is ONLY a culinary term (vegetable means nothing from a botanical view). This is MOST clear in other languages which distinguish between culinary and botanical fruits - for instance in Russian the word "plod" refers to the fruit of a plant, if you will, but there's also a word "frukt" and that is the kind of fruit you put in a fruit salad. So yes, tomato is a fruit but ONLY scientifically speaking, it is NOT a culinary fruit like apples are, but it IS a vegetable like cucumbers and potatoes are.
The difference between knowledge and wisdom is this. Knowledge is that you know that tomatoes are fruit, but wisdom is to know not to put them in fruit salad. Lol🤪 I do concur with the judge, though.
That sounds like something a Supreme Court would do. "Who cares about definitions? Let's go with our feelings." Yeah, instead of just expanding the language of the bill.
It's interesting how that decision has affected our use of fruit and vegetable as determining words, my local grocery often refers to its products as "fruit/vegetable "
"Yeah they're a fruit but no one wants to call them that" "bu-" "THE LAW HAS SPOKEN BE GONE FROM HERE"
This comment had me rolling
F**k the law and f**k the government
This should be in country stupid laws because it's true
@@aongtingco then you should be trash, because you tehnically are. But still, the law counts you as human aren't you? Should we put that law into stupid category?
W PFP
I find it weird that people fixate so much on the tomato when there are a ton of plants that are technically fruits, like every squash, and every pepper. It’s like how everybody knows that Coca Cola used to have cocaine in it even though that’s not quite accurate it was unrefined Coca leaf as far as I’m aware, but nobody mentions that 7up originally contained lithium
or how a lot of what we say are "vegetables" are infact fruits likewise as they the judge says but to any lay person they are treated as vegetables
this. olives are fruit. eggplant is a fruit. and so on. every vegetable that develops from a flower is a fruit. but nooo tomato is the only fruit that goes on pizza!11!!
Pulses (peas, beans and lentils) are fruits too.
@@ragnkja yes and no. technically speaking the pod containing the seeds is the fruit, which you usually do not eat
And a banana is a berry.
The question wether tomatoes are a fruit or a vegetable is a classic category mistake. You can only ask that question if you speak of fruit as a botanical term and vegetable as a culinary term. And because fruit has both a culinary and botanical meaning you could think that the question has an answer. But in reality it's like asking wether a newspaper is for reading or to wrap fish in.
Okey for the anology but i was taught to never wrap any kind of food with a newspaper, the ink will stick to it
Depends on what newspaper you're talking about. I can think of quite a few that should _only_ be used to wrap fish or, better, to line the bottom of a parrot's cage.
@@tile7769 technically it's *newsprint* paper, not newspaper that fish traditionally gets wrapped in - and ironically, newsprint paper doesn't have any printing on it at all!
It's a vegetable either way. A vegetable is an edible plant. Tomatoes are an edible plant, so it is a vegetable. A fruit is a type of vegetable, it's a vegetable and a fruit. A berry is a type of fruit, it's a vegetable and a fruit and a berry.
Nerd, I mean, that's a great break down. Hence, you are a nerd.
As long as you don't try to make a tomato based fruit salad
I guess pineapple salsa is sort of that
@@TastingHistory < Guys I Found The Bard
I've had a delicious bread and tomato salad. I seem to remember that it had mayo in it, and was really like a deconstructed tomato sandwich. Which is delicious if the ingredients are. Otherwise, not.
I make a pretty good pineapple, mango, and green grape fruit salad with tomato, cucumber, olives and fresh mozzarella. Dressed with some lime juice and balsamic glaze.
Does mango-tomatoe-scallion salad in sweet chilli sauce count?
In the UK there was a similar court case with Jaffa cakes - are they a cake or are they a biscuit (cookie), also due to tax on one and not the other. The case was won with the argument that a cake, when left out goes hard and a biscuit when left out goes soft. Jaffa cakes grew hard and were thus cakes and not biscuits.
Why do they have taxes on cakes and not cookies? Or better yet why would those items even be taxes differently?
@@vianjelos Under UK law, VAT on cakes and biscuits is set at 0%. However, the law states that if a biscuit (cookie) is partly or wholly covered in chocolate then it is to be taxed at the standard rate because it's a fraction over the border from an everyday necessity to a luxury.
Cookies do ngl go soft when left out they get hard what are you smoking over there
i believe the answer is "yes"
Yes
Yes
Maybe
definitely 💯
Listen, Ive forgotten more stuff about plants than most people will ever bother to learn, and yet SOMEFIGGINHOW it absolutely never occurred to me, or was pointed out to me by a book or my peers, that the squash and cucumber would be part of the tomato argument. This is why I love your content Max! I pretty much always learn something new, every time I watch you!
So, by your own admission you know very little, if anything at all.
In the caribbean, we call roots like cassava, battata, edoes, potatoes “ground provisions” food pulled from the soil and not growing above it.
And in Norwegian those are “root-fruits” despite not being fruits in any sense.
In the British Isles we just say "root vegetables" but arbitrary exceptions are constantly made for stuff that shouldn't count towards your five-a-day. This largely comes down to whether it's served as the main carbohydrate (e.g. potatoes) or alongside it (turnips).
Yes!! Guyana has an amazing provisions soup!!! Yum!!!
@C K I know what you mean.
Sometimes it gets taken over by popular language names.
Like, we say “Codfish Cakes/Codfish Fritter”. But Americans only familiar with the Spanish name “Bacalao Fritos”. And it bugs me. Or pigeon peas, gandules. And ppl try to correct me 🙄 I’m not going to say it in another language when I or my folks make it. “I know the spanish name, but I’m saying it in english.”
In the US we refer to them as roots or root vegetables.
The difference between knowledge and wisdom. Knowledge is knowing that tomatoes are fruit, wisdom is knowing not to put tomatoes in fruit salad.
Charisma is being able to sell a tomato based fruit salad and call it SALSA!
@@pinkham_productionsgoddamn…
Tomatoes have a sort of fruity flavor. I’m pretty sure there are genetically engineered tomatoes that taste sweet to fit right in with fruits
My mom puts mayonnaise in apple salad. Who does that? Synths. Synths do that.
@@lasagnasux4934 That's like calling mayo a good source of protein because it has eggs in it.
I have often wondered why (American) people make a big deal over whether tomatoes are "really" fruit, although they never address whether cucumbers, eggplants, squash, okra are fruit (which they are, botanically). So the whole tomato kerfuffle is a cultural echo of a 19th century Supreme Court case over tariffs? Huh.
Every country has a story like it. In Germany it was beer, in France bread, and in England and Scotland it was sugar. Ever wonder why shortbread keeps the name bread even though it’s a biscuit? Tariffs.
@@TastingHistory Yes, a friend and I were just talking about shortbread yesterday, truly!
And to the question of sweetbread which is neither sweet nor bread.
Please it's just us Americans are painfully stupid.
Wanna blow one of my Countrymen's minds?
Tell them Pumpkins and Watermelons are both berries.
It's just two terms from different fields that have different meaning, but are written the same way. No need to berate a culture just because they like arguing about by deliberately mixing up contexts.
The word "fruit" is polysemic, and refers to either 1) botanical part of a plant (as opposed to stem, root, etc.) or 2) a culinary category for certain ingredients (as opposed to spice, vegetable, etc.). Tomato (and cucumber, bell pepper, etc.) is a fruit in the meaning #1, but not in the meaning #2, but people have a really hard time noticing this because they believe that words have a single fixed meaning.
[At least in Portuguese I don't need to handle this sort of discussion, as #1 = fruto and #2 = fruta. Related albeit different words for different concepts.]
In the most technical sense, "vegetable" is plant matter. All fruit fall within this set.
However, the subset "fruit" only includes those parts of the plant that contain seeds.
Or, as I like to say: In botanical terms, a tomato is a fruit. In culinary terms, a tomato is a vegetable.
Also, I am very happy that in my native language, there is a correspondent culinary term for fruit that is distinct from the botanical term. Makes the whole question a lot easier. :)
That’s so cool! What language do you speak & what are the words if you don’t mind me asking?
@@dansvidenko2727 My native language is German and the words are "Frucht" (fruit - botanical) and "Obst" (fruit - culinary). The word "Gemüse" means vegetables. So a tomato would be a "Frucht" and a "Gemüse", but not an "Obst".
"Frucht" and "Obst" are often used interchangeably, so you could say both "Fruchtsalat" or "Obstsalat" when referring to a fruit salad, although in the region where I am from, "Obstsalat" is more common. However, it would sounds pretty weird if a parent told their kids: "Esst eure Früchte!" ("Eat your fruits!") instead of "Esst euer Obst!"
@@UserJWR haha that’s great! Thank you for filling me in, you learn something new every day. My first (not native) language was Russian and there is only one word for fruit but it’s pronounced very similarly to the German word for botanical fruit
@@UserJWR If _Frucht_ is botanical and _Obst_ is culinary and tomato is both _Frucht_ and _Gemüse,_ surely the question hasn't been made easier at all, no? 😅 I mean, the botanical term is useless if it classifies non-botanical fruit that should be classified by the culinary term.
@@RuthvenMurgatroyd How a plant *should* be classified depends entirely on the context. If you want to talk about growing and harvesting tomato, I would guess the botanical term is more useful. If you talk about what to put in the dish you're making, the culinary term is more useful.
It's also important to note that in both English and German, the term vegetable/Gemüse is purely culinary and has no botanical equivalent.
Botanical fruits that are culinary vegetables:
Tomato
Squash
Cucumber
Bell Pepper/Chili Pepper
Eggplant
Tomatillo
Hear me out Fruit salad based on tomato is salsa
And ketchup is a smoothie.
Call salsa "fruit salad" if you like. But "salsa" often contains onions, garlic, sometimes corn, and sometimes herbs like cilantro and spices like cayenne or black pepper, which real fruit salads never contain, and salsa is used like a savory sauce or condiment to put on top of or mix with savory foods like beans and rice -- not eaten by itself like a real fruit salad.
@@deewesthill1213not buying this argument. I've seen 'fruit salad' with everything from herbs (such as mint), spices (such as cinnamon, black pepper, and even cloves), and non-botanicals like bacon and cheese. Not all fruit salads are just chopped fruit in a bowl.
On point 2, you can have hot fruit salad on composed items (like compotes and baked goods), or eat raw savory fruit salad with a simple vessel (i.e. pico de gallo and chips).
The real distinction culinarily is sugar content. And even that absolute falls apart with sugar cane and sugar beets.
@@ChironetaMaxima Where did you see or eat such "fruit salads"? It must be outside the US. I have never heard of anyone mixing bacon or cheese, cinnamon, black pepper, or cloves with fruit, and calling it "fruit salad", and i doubt most people, in this country at least, would want to eat it. A "Hawaiian" pizza with bacon, cheese, pineapple is still a pizza and not a "salad".
Tomatoes are botanical fruits because they have a pericarp (which develops from the ovary) encloses the seeds… true of many culinary fruits and vegetables
This is why strawberries aren’t really fruits in a botanical sense though- the yummy part we like to eat is actually a receptacle where hundreds of tiny fruits come out of (the tiny strawberry “seeds” on the outside- those are actually the fruits!)
Apples are also not true fruits either, their flesh is mostly receptacle tissue rather than pericarp
Whoever came up with the botanical definition of fruit was smoking crack
Wait... So from a fetal development perspective, if animals where plants, then animals that lay eggs would be fruits and those that have live birth would be vegetables?
apples are fruits, they are pomes which is a type of stone fruit. They are not, however, berries which would require the seeds being directly against the fruit. Apples have an endocarp (core).
@@cbm3what is a pome?
@@seronymus a type of stone fruit (peaches, plums). pomes dont have a pit like stone fruits though, but both have an endocarp that separates the seeds from the flesh of the fruit. The endocarp in stone fruits is the pit, in pomes its the core.
Reminds me of the incident that a Sikh man once went against the segregation laws and then used historical and genetic accounts to prove that he was an Aryan. The court denounced it saying that even though technically he is an Aryan he wasn't considered "white" in colloquial language.
Soo basically saying screw all the evidence and science you dont look the part
That sounds like the “one drop rule” we had here on the states for a time
Based Sikh
Based court
"Knowledge is knowing tomato is a fruit, wisdom is knowing to not put it in a fruit salad" - someone I forget
It's "DND Stats explained with tomatoes". Strength is being able to crush a tomato, Constitution is being able to eat a rotten tomato, Charisma is being able to sell someone a tomato based fruit salad. I forget what Agility was.
@@powerofanime1 Dexterity is being able to dodge a tomato
@@IndependentObserver That was it!
it was a redditor who said this about 15 years ago. probably traceable history which is cool
This puts a whole new spin on the categorization of fruits & veggies in Stardew Valley.
This short would send Demetrius into a conniption
@@DancingCrickets04 100%😭
@@DancingCrickets04Isnt there an entire cutscene of Demetrius and Robin arguing whether tomato is a fruit?
@@Lemony123 Yep, Demetrius's 4 heart event I think
Culinarily, tomatoes are vegetables. Flavor profile is more in line with vegetables, and pairs well with them typically. A tomato and an onion can work better than a tomato and an apple.
I have a degree in horticulture and you're technically correct and I'm mad about it
This is PURE GOLD!! Why hasn't this gotten more views!?
Ketchup is a vegetable.
Ketchup is made from tomatoes.
Ergo, a tomato is a vegetable
QED.
Ketchup is a vegetable????
@@BlueJay-rv2rd Yes. Ronald Reagan said so when he cut school lunch program funding. Ketchup is much cheaper than tomatoes, you see.
@@JeffinBville Literally 1984
No, no...to quote Cookie Monster, "Surely, if tomato is fruit, then that make ketchup a jam!"
but ketchup is made from fish therefore its seafood....?
Omg...those blue eyes! Hubby is so lucky. You are a gem. Not a hot tomato. 😂
"Are tomatoes a fruit or a vegetable?"
"Yes."
fruit, botanically, means the fleshy growth around a plants seed, or around the reproductive vector of said plant. culinarily, they are any sweet botanical fruit. vegetable is referring to any edible part of the plant
you could also claim that mushrooms or edible fungus like wood ear are also fruit as they are surrounding the reproductive vector of their species, the spore
I have always described tomatoes as my favorite vegetable, and everyone corrects me. I am eternally grateful for this knowledge and come-back, O' Wise Sage of the Kitchen.
I feel like this story could be an omen from the past of things that may come in the future..
Wow! Very interesting. TFS!
Every plant is a vegetable. In Twenty Questions, you ask, "Animal, vegetable, or mineral?"
I guess that would include nuts.
The way I understand it, and I'm no botanist, is:
1. If it's an edible part of a plant, it's a vegetable.
2. If it has seeds, it's **also** a fruit.
Thus:
1. All fruits are vegetables, but not all vegetables are fruits.
2. Tomatoes are, therefore, fruits. (But also technically a vegetable, as is every edible part of a plant.)
Sorry, but I am not a vegetable, and I am most definitely NUTS.
@@Mark_Agamotto1313_Smith Are you saying you are a fruit? Or are you saying you are edible?
@@Mark_Agamotto1313_Smith 😉
@@frisbeepilot Very scientifically defined. Thank you.
Illustrations are incredible
It's because there is a scientific definition and a culinary definition.
A fruit is like a snack in the culinary sense while a vegetable is more of an ingredient... you "can" just eat a veggie... but it's more of an ingredient...
Nobody eats a tomato like an apple
I would snack on small tomatoes.
@@Alverant You are a freak..... be ashamed of yourself...
Instead of seeds, sweetness seems to be the most important factor when differentiating between fruits and vegetables.
It is a fruit that we use as a vegetable.
all fruits are vegetables.. like.. hello?
@@vincenzomusella5363
Nope, they are not. Fruits and vegetables are different.
@@vincenzomusella5363 The way we use tomatoes and certain other botanical fruits is in savory (non-sweet) cooking.
"Vegetable" is a culinary term but not a botanical term. "Fruit" is used for both.
Does that put pasta sauce in the same category as, like, a strawberry preserve?
No, mainly due to the sugar content and use of pectin to set the preserves.
But if you wanted to add pectin to your pasta sauce I reckon you could figure out how to make pasta preserves. Whether you should or not is another matter.
Not really since a sauce doesn't really solidify when cooled due to pectin.
Botanically speaking it's a fruit, but if this is the standard then cucumbers, zucchini, peppers, corn, peas, beans, rice, peanuts & even grains like oats & wheat are fruit as well ( the plants embryonic offspring).
Thank you for including in your comment the legume of the peanut.
If you eat a whole pea like a snap pea yes. If not everything after peppers is a seed which is not a fruit
Vegetable is a culinary term, not a scientific one. Tomatoes are fruiting bodies of the tomato plant, and a tomato is a vegetable for cooking. That's why mushrooms are vegetables despite being an entirely different kingdom of life
Fruitable! That's a category I taught my sons to learn about in-between fruits and veggies. They'd look for other things to put into fruitables.
Yes, but where does hardtack come into play?
I've always learned: If the object bears its own seeds, it can be considered a fruit. If not, it can be considered a vegetable.
Vegetables are no sweet and do not grow from tree
Friuts are sweets and grow from tree
Grapes?@@whiteeye3453
@@whiteeye3453doesn't sound very useful
@@andruloni what?
@@whiteeye3453 do strawberries grow on trees? any particular reason we should not treat them as fruit?
tomatoes can be pretty sweet. do they stop being veggies?
many fruits you wouldn't call sweet
Botanically, a tomato is only a fruit in that it grows from a ripened flower ovary and is the fleshy part of a plant that surrounds its seeds. However, this definition also applies to other foods that people normally regard as vegetables (e.g., avocados, eggplants, cucumbers, red & green peppers, zucchini, butternut squash), and further expands to plants that are actually inedible and even poisonous to humans, such as acorns and dandelions. Hence, since the botanical definition is not really about food at all, I think it’s more accurate to define the tomato as a vegetable.
On a separate thought regarding the SCOTUS ruling, the reason this happened in the first place is because taxes were being placed on vegetables but not fruits, and so businessman John Nix argued for the fruit-classification to avoid paying extra money. Yet, supposed now that the tax was instead placed on fruits but not veggies and that tomatoes were then taxed as fruits. In that reality, we all know that Nix would then be arguing that tomatoes were vegetables to avoid the tax. Hence, the case was never about science and botany to him, but was all about the money. Ergo, the court saw right through him and unanimously agreed that tomatoes were vegetables because of the “culinary” way they were typically consumed.
More of these shorts please, I need to look at your face some more.
TRUTH!
FFS. Tomatoes are a savoury fruit, along with cucumbers and all squashes. Beans and peas, being seeds, technically fall into the "fruit" category as well. Every gardener in the world knows this. There is no law that says "fruits" have to be sweet! What about acorns (bitter) and beechnuts (nutty).
And this case is cited to this day when dealing with common use of a word vs dictionary definition. People always think of this as a nothing little case, if they even know of it, but such a small distinction can have a major impact in law going forward. As we say in the restaurant, do it for them once and they will expect it every time, but when you are talking law they have every right to do so. Such an interesting piece of history, so glad to see someone finally covering it.
It’s because “vegetable” isn’t a scientific term it’s a culinary term, most of our vegetable are leafy greens, but many are fruits and roots as well, it’s because one term is for science and one’s for cooking
Strength is being able to throw a tomato
Dexterity is being able to dodge a tomato
Constitution is being able to eat a bad tomato
Intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit
Wisdom is not putting a tomato in a fruit salad
Charisma is being able to sell a tomato based fruit salad
I like that judge, he was smart.
You're the best Max, I f$cks with you because you always do it right and classy.
By definition, they are both, as a "vegetable" by definition is any edible part of a plant, thus all fruits are vegetables, but not all vegetables are fruits.
People need to learn that vegetable is a purely culinary term.
Technically speaking Vegetable is just a category socially put on things for our understanding. Like Fish. Or Gender.
They do make a good Jam though! And they are a scent in one of my favourite perfumes! ❤
As a horticulturalist, I approve of these Horticultrual conundrums.
I just got my groceries. It's peach, nectarine and plum season so I got some to make into stewed fruit. I have a plum tree but gave all my plums to my Mum for jam!
THANK YOU!!! People annoy me so bad when they try to correct me on this 😅
All agree with you on this subject
Scientifically, botanically: fruit
Culinarily: vegetable
As a gardener its a fruit, as an Italian it is a vegetable, and in my mouth it depends how I am eating it raw or cooked.
Also, technically a vegetable is classified as an edible portion of a plant, and a fruit is the plant’s seed pod. Technically the seed pod is part of the plant, so all fruits are vegetables, but not all vegetables are fruits.
I'm from Kansas, USA, so tomatoes are legally a vegetable here because they can be eaten with ranch dressing. 😊 That's our system for sorting fruits and veggies.
Hey Max, love all your content! Kinda bummed no subtitles for your shorts.
Of course, they went with calling it a vegetable if it meant they could tax it lol
Most people don't know what "fruit" means. It isn't "sugary snack", it is a technical description of a part of certain plants.
To put it as easily as I can, Tomatoes are fruit, just like peppers, eggplants, and raspberries; The US supreme court be damned!
By definition a fruit is a plant part that holds seeds. while a vegetable is any other edible plant part - like tubers, leaves, stems and so on.
Strawberries are a curious thing as the fleshy part itself doesn't contain seeds - they sit on the outside, comparable to hazlenuts - that's why strawberries are nuts, or rather aggregate fruits holding nuts.
I think @mrbeat did an episode of Supreme Court briefs about this too!
You are spot on.....
The purpose of the tariff was to protect domestic crops, so the exemption on fruit should have been clarified as an exemption on tropical fruit, which unlike tomatos would be harder to produce domestically.
Scientifically they're also a vegetable, because all fruits are vegetables. "Fruits" are a subset of "Vegetables" just like "Grains" or "Roots". Square Rectangle
I wonder if there're a lot of tomato recipes from that time period, you should do a tomato episode
This all could have been avoided if English had stuck to it's germanic roots, in Dutch the word for the botanical fruit and colloquial fruit are different xD
America has a lot of things like this where the government insists upon something that is technically wrong. The state of Indiana, where I live, legislated the value of pi to exactly 3.
Well, has anyone made squash or pumpkin jam, or jelly? I love tomato jam.
Never tried it, but I remember seeing tomato jam in the European section of stores.
It's completely up to what it does in most foods in one culture.
Case and point: Koreans will categorize chili peppers as vegetables when they are fresh. Koreans will think of them as spices only when it is dried and crushed into gochugaru powder.
Tomato is a fruit, but a vegetable is any edible part of a plant, which makes fruits vegetables
not sure id call flour a vegetable tho
Tomato is a vegetable. A vegetable is an edible plant or the edible portion of a plant. That's what a tomato is.
A fruit is a type of vegetable, fleshy and containing seeds. The tomato is a fruit type vegetable.
A berry is a type of fruit that has multiple seeds. The tomato is a berry type fruit type vegetable.
"Scientifically speaking the tomato is a fruit..."
America - "Let's ignore science."
Learning about this gave me the same feeling as learning bees are _technically_ legally considered fish in the state of California.
This happened specifically only because of the weird interaction between two laws: one where it protects various forms of wildlife and plant life native to California and a legal definition under California law defining fish as, but not limited to, invertebrates. The first law doesn't explicitly include insects, but does include fish. With bees being invertebrates, it was legally and successfully argued that bees should be apart of that first laws' protections
The definitions are so simple. A fruit the part that contains the seed of the plant. A vegetable is any edible part of any plant and or mushroom.
For a more modern version:
The UK had a similar deliberation over whether Jaffa Cakes, are cakes or biscuits.
Same reason, one had tax one didn’t.
I believe they decided it was a cake.
"both"
*proceed to cause mass hysteria*
You can make tomatoes into preserves/jam just like anyother fruit.
I have a cookbook titled "Vegetariana". There's a small insert about this very same case with many of the details stated here. The deciding factor that led to tomatoes being declared vegetables, however, is that they are never used in desserts. That struck me as specious reasoning. By that logic, you could declare apples as meat when you cook them with pork or carrots as fruits because they can be baked in cakes.
Imagine unironically ignoring the definition of fruit just because a government told you to.
no, the government simply created two different categories of fruit: botanical and culinary. the law the court decided on was about food taxation, not botany.
@@ooooneeeeso really it's just "we know it's a fruit, fuck you pay me"
@@nameynamename3758yeah. It is only because of "money"
There's no such thing as a vegetable, botanically speaking. It's not a botanical term. Literally nothing in existence is a vegetable if a tomato isn't. Tomatoes and other vegetables are vegetables from a culinary perspective but have other categorizations in botany.
@@janNowa Wait, isnt Vegetable plant that is not Fruit?
It's a berry according to biological . Also berry are cucumbers and watermelons . Scientifically speaking all plants that had a lot of seeds inside are Berries 😊
I guess ultimately it all comes down to the perspective on how certain plants are being consume/process by norms. For examples, stuff like pees, squashes, etc all needed (or mostly) to be cook/process before eating like most common vegetables, therefore they're treated more as vegetables instead of the fruits that we just grabbed and eat.
Scientific facts are often too detached and vague to the general understanding of the masses.
Vegetables are a social construct.
Furthermore, botanically speaking bananas, cucumbers and watermelons are berries, but strawberries are not! The fruits of the strawberry are actually the individual seeds on the outside. And if I remember correctly, pineapple is a bunch of small fruits stuck together. This is because botanics doesn't care if you use it for timber, fabric of fry it in a pan with spices. It just tries to make it evolutionarily and structurally make sense.
This is exactly true.
Keep in mind - fruit is a culinary AND botanical term, but vegetable is ONLY a culinary term (vegetable means nothing from a botanical view).
This is MOST clear in other languages which distinguish between culinary and botanical fruits - for instance in Russian the word "plod" refers to the fruit of a plant, if you will, but there's also a word "frukt" and that is the kind of fruit you put in a fruit salad.
So yes, tomato is a fruit but ONLY scientifically speaking, it is NOT a culinary fruit like apples are, but it IS a vegetable like cucumbers and potatoes are.
The difference between knowledge and wisdom is this. Knowledge is that you know that tomatoes are fruit, but wisdom is to know not to put them in fruit salad. Lol🤪
I do concur with the judge, though.
Beautiful 😁 👌
"because it is." *dead*
Look man, a watermelon is a berry and a strawberry isn't.
Botanical definitions are ridiculous and are at times rightfully ignored.
Then you're saying that your world is the center of the universe and to the rest, be d**ned?
People be arguing over catagorization of tomatoes while i argue that raw tomatoes taste like wet doo doo
What part of the plant is it? The fruit. The fruit of a plant is the thing that provides seeds usually associated with the blossoms.
That sounds like something a Supreme Court would do. "Who cares about definitions? Let's go with our feelings." Yeah, instead of just expanding the language of the bill.
Good Ole NY....taxing and prohibiting items they have no constitutional right touching
It's interesting how that decision has affected our use of fruit and vegetable as determining words, my local grocery often refers to its products as "fruit/vegetable "
Botanically, it's a fruiting body, but culinarily it's used as a vegatable.