*Spoilers for Children of Dune* I understand you didn't talk about it but I just wanna say that Alia might have been one of the most tragic characters I've ever read and the revelation of what is wrong with her in this book left me astonished. Being considered by all to be a aberration, including by her mother who left her, and altough having the prescience just like Paul she always lived in his shadows. This book shows how the whole empire falls on her shoulder after Paul leaves and it just BREAKS her, making her susceptible to being taking over by the Baron in her mind and in her last momments she makes what is to be believed her actual last act of self control and kills herself, taking control over her life again by ending it on her on terms and not Leto's, her mother's or the Baron's.
It took me a few re-reads for how much of a tragedy this truly was. Alia was never really her own person. She always lived in Paul's shadow. In universe, Paul had trouble seeing others with prescience. It's why Fenring could have assassinated him at the end of the first book. Others with prescience create a blind spot. After Paul walks into the desert, Alia thinks she's free. But Paul is still on Dune. His presence, prescience, and the degree to which he is involved with the events of this book, all serve to blind Alia's vision. It drives her to consume more and more spice, which opens her up to possession. All the while, she doesn't know her brother is alive. She tries so hard to be what the empire needs, but can't. Paul's presence in her future blocks her prescience completely and she never gets a chance to find out what she could be outside of Paul's shadow until it's already to late.
@@waynetrout4921 She never had a chance to be her own person . The sisters were not only adults but trained for years before doing the procedure but she was forced into it when her brain was still developing . She was never alone in her head . Her entire family throw her under the bus . At the end of the day Paul was such a coward. Leaving his sister, children to deal with the mess . The most coward in the family in my opinion.
My favorite thing about this review was having already read God Emperor and chuckling at all the little guesses. God Emperor is going to throw you for a loop, and I am genuinely interested in your opinions on Leto II and his character progression.
God Emperor was my favorite of the series and I can't really explain why, it just is. I felt similar as Daniel and every book that I read, I was content to let that be the end of the story. But God Emperor was so good and different that I knew already that I would read anything else that Frank Herbert wrote. It was not a mistake to have continued reading haha
I don’t mind it being philosophical but I don’t like it politically. Or it’s attitude towards sex (like the line where a character orgasms at at the sight of another rock climbing)
@@mariar3767 I mean it’s not trash book and I enjoy it. But if digg little more. Its not really awesome. But I feel like it’s needed book for Leto 2 arc. Like 1-2 Paul books, 3-4 Leto.
I agree that the series matures as it progresses, which is crazy, considering it’s severity right out of the gate with book 1; Children definitely broadened my view of what sci-fic could be, and into God Emperor?… sheeit man, by the time book 4 rolls by, I’m thinking: if Herbert was born 2500 years ago, today we’d have both a Homer, AND a Herbert LOL
"God Emperor" is my favorite of the series. I'm told I'm odd for that. In any even, "Children" is a definite, solid second, so I'm glad to hear you're going to keep reading through at least "God Emperor". (At least it sounds that way.) I've always viewed "Children", though as "the chickens coming home to roost." Because Paul wasn't strong enough to make the tough choices, to do what he could see was needed to secure the future of the human race, the price came due on his sister and children. It's a lot more complex than that, but I think that still covers things.
I absolutely agree. I think God Emperor is what solidifies what this series is and what it's about because, in a sense, the main character is "the human race". And Leto with his prescience and racial memory is kind of the embodiment of the human race; it's past, present and future. That's why I love Dune and why I love God Emperor in particular, because it's not about individual characters, it's about us as a species. Okay...maybe it's a little bit about Duncan.
I love them all but God Emperor was not my favorite but I respect the hell outta anyone who loves it. It just didn't have enough happening (plot) for me. I thought Leto became a big annoying with his talking and I never connected with Siona. It does have some of the best quotes and lines though.
Dune is what brought me back to reading a couple of years ago, and is how I first found your channel! I'm glad you got around to reading more of the series and am especially glad you've been enjoying the sequels! Can't wait to see what you think of God Emperor. Keep up the good work man! BTW you should check out Rendezvous with Rama if you haven't yet, It's awesome and apparently is going to be Denis' next film after his Dune stuff!
I think a better analogy for the lack of "good guys" in the Dune universe is that it's something like Sophocles' tragic world, exemplified by Oedipus but deeply woven throughout his surviving plays. Paul is a shining example of Oedipus in that he personifies human achievement (partially constructed to be so by the Bene Gesserit breeding program). He represents the "ideal human" or the idealized human (dare I say "hero"?). And that's the rub. In Oedipus Tyrannos, the hero is constrained by fate, but his situation has been extrapolated (appropriated?) be existential philosophy and in that light, Paul is an extension of this existential "hero." However great their powers and good (in an existential world where "good" is not an absolute), they find themselves thrust into positions and "choices" that serve only to ensnare or trap them. There is no "right choice" for Paul to make, all the way back to the moment he and Jessica chose to flee and strive to live. There is no way to divest himself of the power structures he has created (and at the same time created him). Now he's the emperor of the known galaxy(?), and his mother is a traumatize wreck (substitute that for Oedipus' "crime" with his mother). He cannot save his wife Chaney, but to deny her the one thing she most wants (children). What's interesting is that Paul "won" in Messiah by losing his sight (literally and the oracular sight). He broke away from the chains that bound him to his throne. All it cost him was everyone he loved. Oedipus, meanwhile, is likewise blinded and wandering alone in banishment. The reality, institutions, power structures, etc. that constituted his world proved to be illusory. All of the "good" Oedipus did turned out to be something very different from what he thought it was. Sightless, he no longer acts with the bold confidence of a "good man" bolstered by his confidence is power structures and truths that only "seemed" absolute. Both Messiah figures, saviors of their respective peoples (Thebans, Fremen) are exposed as products human delusion. Gawd, I love this stuff.
Frank Herbert was a great historian and scholar of culture, myth and history of the likes. He is quoted in Dune talking about understanding the myth a man participates in. I think he tried to incorporate these themes plus much more in these books and it makes an epic to the level of the odyssey.
I'll tell you what I tell everyone else who ever mentioned to me they started reading Dune. And that is: Don't even try to guess where the next Dune book is going just based on the one you've just finished. Whatever you're thinking, ol' Frank will surprise you.
Great set of reviews. I've always thought you couldn't get the full tragic character arc of Paul Atreides without getting through "Children of Dune". If "Messiah" showed us the tragedy of Paul's feet of clay after having caused much evil through something resembling good intentions, "Children" fully reveals him as having also lacked the courage to himself do his duty in following the (necessary but horrendous) "Golden Path" that he himself saw - and instead passing that burden on to the next generation. With something of a reconciliation with his son near the end, there's something that in other stories might have been depicted as resigned acceptance and a kind of redemption, but here can only be taken as an even further abasement of the reader's opinion of Paul's character. Truly a modern Greek tragedy worthy of its predecessor(s) from Greek mythology - where the Atreides' literal namesakes (the descendents of Atreus) really do suffer under a multi-generational curse of the gods.
Children of Dune’s last few chapters have been some of my favorites in the entire series, but the book is a bit inconsistent, however, Alia is absolute God Tier. Arguably one of my favorite characters ever(I’ve only read Dune, Messiah and Children)
I'm so excited to see your thoughts on God Emperor of Dune, when you get there. I had many similar thoughts about just ending the series with Messiah, but continued on and God Emperor became my favorite book in the series.
This entire series is honestly a masterpiece. I needed a book to read for school, and had seen the movie not to long before so I figured I'd try and read it. At first the language and the way of words had me stuck and it took me some time to begin to understand it, but once I did I was hooked. I've been reading these books non-stop since, and its amazing to find out how much enthusiasm is behind the community these books have created. I am extremely excited to read the last three, and being able to share my excitement with everyone over a book series has got to be one of the best feelings ever. The way the book causes introspective thought is probably my favorite part, and I think its easy to say that you can learn a lot about life from just reading this amazing story. So glad I still have new Dune material left to read, and I am already dreading the sadness I will feel once I finish the series.
don't cry because it's over so on and so forth, Frank Herbert left behind some utterly incredible writing that I think gives the reader some fantastic skills for analysing the world around us. my partner and I read the first couple in the series last year, we're still going, but the concepts and ideas about societies throughout the past, even into the future, he's laid out already have been, frankly (pun unintended), life changing. there's a reason everyone who reads dune becomes that person asking everyone if they've read dune hahaha.
Oh wait, he's only reading through these all now? I can't wait to see... *sigh* you know it's a great series when you can't even _allude_ to the spoiler-y things without spoiling them on some level. They are so good. I'm - I think I had a stroke of luck when reading the books when I was younger; I'd bought the first one because 'giant worms seem cool', and then found Children, [edit: this one exists, doesn't it] Heretics and Chapter House in libraries; had to go back from Chapter House to read God Emperor, but getting to see that part of the story early on meant that the last two books became basically my favourites. What is there to say about them without spoling everything? Hrm - well, put it this way, Herbert had not come _close_ to running out of tricks to pull with the story, nor observations to make about people, by the end of book 3. The last two are great, and worth reading; they add to the books that came before in a lot of ways, without detracting from the ability of those earlier books to form a self-contained narrative. I _could_ talk for a very long time about those last [edit] three books. But I won't, because it's much better just to read them and see for yourself the range the guy managed to squeeze out of this one series. Edit: Though apparently I didn't love them _enough_ to remember that Heretics and Chapter House are in fact two separate books; probably because I read both back-to-back. So the last _three_ books are all worth reading.
I'm so glad you are continuing the series. I didn't connect with Dune, books 1 & 2, as much as I connected with the later books in the series, so I love when people decide to keep going! I'm curious to hear what you think about the next one.
I loved this series, read it too many times to enjoy now. I just loved the way humanity was going to be subdued no matter what and the children were going ahead with the vision.
I think Frank Herbert's greatest gift as an author was his ability to put us in the heads of his characters, in their voice. I know who Paul is. I know who Jessica is. And, he created a pretty amazing universe as the backdrop for his characters.
The characterisation was one of the main reasons i wasn't able to enjoy the original Dune. Characters just seemed to be either one-dimensional (especially Baron Harkonnen) or very bland. The only interesting thing about Paul is his place in the story and what he represents but i couldn't care less about him as a person.
@@msj7872 yeah, it's like being a murderer and a hedonist wasn't enough, Herbert also had to make him a rapist, pedophile and be attracted to his own nephew.
I love how the more the story progres in later books Atreides become more and more rebel . They always have been the wild cards that changed the game and shape humanity destiny but we get more wild descendants in later books 😊 . Honestly I highly recommend all books . They are delicious
I love how I was able to predict what this review whould be more or less after listening your "I don't think I should continue this saga after book 2" xD Now to wait for the God Emperor review. I need to see your reaction to that unit of a book.
Just finished Messiah, and I didn’t want to go further for the exact reason you didn’t, but you’ve convinced me to read further... at some point. I still think I’ll stop now to read some other stuff, and maybe even go back and start again from the beginning when I dive back in, since there are so many layers to Herbert’s masterpiece to dig through.
I myself am 4 books in, and right now I'm totally like "ok, I'm good for half a year to a year". The books are monstrous undertaking to digest and if you ever go beyond the second, not only is taking breaks in between nothing to be ashamed of, but also I can only recommend it.
True and it's all because she chose love over duty. I don't think their is a finality in how the audience is supposed to take this though. Like most of Dune it is up to the readers to decide what's in between the lines. Could give a 30 minute talk on your first sentence and my first sentence response to it haha
Great review! I have read the first 3 and agree that Herberts writing does evolve beautifully. Will you do a read-a long for the God Emperor of Dune (Book #4)? If I'd love to join in. I have not continued to the series past book 3...I'm kind of nervous about it. Anyhoo, love ya channel!
Excellent review! Just finished the book. Loved it. 8/10 is totally fair. It’s definitely got some of my favorite parts in the whole first trilogy. Loved the Preacher. It’ll be hard without him, but his son is Superman so he’s pretty compelling haha.
Poor Harah, I hope Stilgar was a good "father" replacement than Paul. Cause Paul did not care about his technically adopted kids. Honestly it was a little disappointing they were never used. Also, remove that stupid boxed water shit. It is so annoying....tap water is good.
Really looking forward to seeing what you think of God Emperor of Dune. It has some really interesting choices...including, for some reason....let's say..."sexy rock climbing."
Just now marked the vid for Watch Later, all I can say for now is: Get ready for God-Emperor. It is a wholly different beast from all previous Dune books. It’s grown on me over the years, but the first go was rough (in my late teens).
All the ones by Frank Herbert definitely are. I can't really say the same about the spin offs in the greater franchise that came after his death, although some people like them.
I loved Children of Dune. I would say it’s a good stopping point for the series but I myself want to pick up God-Emperor of Dune to finish off Leto’s story.
Do it! I really thought that it capped the story of the Atreides family perfectly and logically lays out the ultimate goals that began with Paul's journey in book 1. IMHO books 5 or 6 are superfluous and add little to the overall saga. Four is a worthy end. Had I know this I would not have read further.
From watching your reviews, it seems you like book 2 and 3 more than the original. Most people would disagree with that, but I actually think it’s pretty interesting.
Ooooh are you going to do the later books too? GEOD is great for a sense of scope but is basically just a giant monologue from Leto II. Frank’s last two books are endlessly fun though. Miles Teg is just a fantastic character and so much fun to read.
@@HighdesertOgre Wonder what Daniel will make of the Honored Matres and Futars? Esp as the concluding duology is more Space Operatic, with spaceships going around casually blowing up planets like it's Babylon 5...
Really enjoyed your review Daniel I’ve read the Dune series twice through and I’ve not heard Paul be called a failed Prophet before, I imagined Paul saw his saviour story as including not only himself but his son too... and other Atredies Get ready for God Emperor Of Dune!
I think you'd love Made In Abyss, it features on of my favourite ever fantasy concepts ( the Abyss, an unexplored cascm containing numerous varied biomes with diverse ecosystems and unique yet terrifying monsters) also the relationship between the two leads is adorable. The anime is 13 episodes and a movie but there is a manga from which the show was adapted I haven't read it only watched but I assume given the quality of the series the books are amazing as well
Can't wait to hear your impression of God Emperor of Dune. It is my favorite Dune book, one that I've reread the most, and that had a huge influence on my worldview.
I am gonna need to start reading dune. Its never been a franchise that's really grabbed me when I was younger but I do feel maybe now I might like it more the more I hear about it
Would you consider reading and reviewing magical realism books like One Hundred Years of Solitude by Gabriel Garcia Marquez or Midnight's Children by Salman Rushdie
Children of Dune was by far my favorite alongside the original Dune. God Emperor brings everything to a very satisfying conclusion, but I found it hard to read after Children. For reasons I can’t state cause spoilers. Lol. Hope you enjoy it though! Look forward to your thoughts on God Emperor.
Another great review! I'm also eagerly awaiting to see your review for the second Eisenhorn novel: Malleus. Love to see if it continues to impress you and increase your appreciation for (some) Warhammer 40k stories.
I have not watched this yet, but this book is my favorite fictional book, period. So I am excited to hear your thoughts. However, I only arrived at that conclusion once I was well into God Emperor.
Love the Dune series and these reviews have been great. Also I see that Twilight Imperium reference. If you like that game you should definitely play the Dune board game
I just finished Children of Dune about an hour ago. I’m still trying to process what I read. The whole time I’m thinking, “what’s happening to this family?”, but I felt like I needed to keep going forward. I completely agree with you when you talk about how coldly the decisions are made. Herbert’s writing style is so different than what I normally read
"Silence! ... Did you not hear that man? Blasphemers and idolaters! All of you! The religion of Muad'Dib is not Muad'Dib. He spurns it as he spurns you! Sand will cover this place. Sand will cover you."
I've only watched the almost silver screen`s Children of Dune. In fact I first watch it of anything Dune. And I liked it much... So than I watched the old Movie with like ~Sting... and than there is one more Super Cheap Dune that Due to some reason I've had and watched but remember nothing of... (Or had because the external HD it was on have some sort of problems). Than for the longest time I Didn`t even know Dune comes of a very popular books as a Movie... But I've never read the books tbh. I watched this clip only because I've actually once upon a time've read Wheel of Time books (even thou as it turned out I nearly remember nothing of them in reality) but than the TV Show Became a Thing and I've checked this Chanel because of your TV Show comments of Wheel of Time (I've also been watching the tv shows while they were coming out, as someone that have gone trough the books). Than I checked a few more videos of yours out of shear curiosity... Maybe Sword Of Truth or something (which I've also happen to have read) and well. You amaze me as someone of your age that obviously have brain and read books and watch TV shows but does not actually game as everything you do... Why not? o_0. Install BDO, forget to Read... Just don`t touch Lost Ark because it will murder your brain.
SPOILER ALERT I didn’t quite like the way Paul gets killed. I agree that it was necessary for the story and the audience to progress beyond him, but I think it was pretty cold and anticlimatic. At this point Paul was the full center of the Dune story and I believe he deserved a more climatic ending, more pathos, rather than just being removed from the equations in two lines.
SPOILER ALERT SPOILER ALERT I love the narrative of Paul’s actual death being parallel with his ideas and vision. How his legacy still exists with his children but it finally dies when Leto takes the step and goes for the golden path which he was scared to take
Just got done reading CoD. Out of the first three books my least favorite. Imo there were so many characters I couldn’t remember any of them. The ppl Leto meets in the desert while riding the worm. & then also I feel like there’s a book missing from this one and Messiah cause all of the characters that we know just felt so disconnected? Solid 6/10 Dune/Messiah are tied & rating for me cause they feel like the same book for me. CoD is the Last Jedi of Dune.
I'm sorry, but Children of Dune didn't do anything for me. So many retcons (e.g. Alia having access to the Baron; abominations meaning something totally different etc), subplots that are forced and end up going nowhere, the bene gesserit spending millenia breeding the ultimate human just so that human can turn into a worm, and the last few pages felt like they were just thrown in haphazardly. 1/5 for me.
The later books are not universally loved/liked. I loved them, though. I wonder what you'll think. And the ones written by his son.. Not my favourites. I read them to conclude the story arc begun in Heretics and Chapterhouse but they were lacking.
Not a fair poll. Butts would beat almost anything. Sanderson or butts? Dark Tower of Butts? LOTR or butts? Okay, maybe not that last one. Tolkien fans are far too sophisticated and "intellectual" to vote butts. But anything else and it's ass for the win.
Read God Emperor of Dune slowly. Trust me you need to listen to everything Leto says in order to understand what the Golden Path truly means to him and mankind. Then, when you read Heretics and Chapterhouse, you see how the Golden Path changes mankind forever. Glad you like it! Dune is my all-time favorite sci-fi series.
The outlook on humanity is so bleak. I loved the book but had to put it down multiple times because it just made me so sad. Humanity (spoiler!!) can literally only be saved by something inhuman. What!? But then again, working on climate change mitigation and seeing how that's been going, it seems to just confirm dark existential fears. A little scared and excited to read on
the first and second dune are my favorites. I didnt like CoD as mutch. there was just something that resonated with me with the first two. The philosophical themes of Religion mixed with government mixed with the almost Shakespearean tragedy story of Paul is just beautiful
I didn’t like Children of Dune. Book one is for everybody, book two for those that liked the first book, book three for the freaks that just really-really love the philosophy of Frank Herbert. I feel like children of dune was too philosophical for my taste, I needed more action and politics, less monologue on spice fueled visions and philosophy of shared lives/minds in the same consciousness, etc.
I think I am one the few who appreciated Dune Messiah more than Children of Dune. I didn’t like the whole ‘Alia is an abomination’ where she gets tormented by her grandfather. I think the universe of Dune didn’t need that. Too much fantasy, too little sci-fi perhaps? Also what happens to Leto II in the end, was too farfetched. Not my cup of tea. I think the series will end here for me. I’ve enjoyed the ride nonetheless and I see how Frank Herbert’s influence on fantasy and sciencefiction still lives on.
9:41 SPOILER ALERT: As someone who didn’t have it spoiled, the “is it / isn’t it” thing - i think meant to be very clear that it is him from the beginning, I always knew for certain that it was him. I think it was meant to be situational irony where we know but the characters dont, and that gives those of us who are invested in Paul as the main character reason to read on and care about the other characters and what’s happening outside of him because we want to see how they will react to him when they find out. I don’t think it was ever a mystery for the readers, in fact Herbert pretty much gives it away as soon as he introduces the preacher. He’s missing his eyes (not just blind), he acts as if he can see, he uses voice, he wears an older still suit, and everyone who sees him says he looks like Paul.
I agree with the statement that Paul isn’t the hero of Dune. Personally I believe that position should go to Leto. Even considering what happens in the next book, through his sacrifice (something that Paul could’ve done or he could’ve allowed his sister to do it) he was able to successfully save humanity from its doom despite how much pain it puts him through.
for a millennial, you fill me with a sense of optimism for the future. well spoken and concise with also a hint of humour makes your videos appealing for this gen x'er.
Daniel seems to be referencing Twilight Imperium a lot in the last few weeks. Seems like someone has been claiming some victory points and building some war suns perhaps? 🤔
This was the book that broke me. I hate this book sooo much. The best character, the planet Dune is totally neutered. At this point. It’s such a safe place and it lost all the things that make it feel special now I’m just left with these automaton humans I couldn’t care less about.
You will see how big the story of Dune is, how bad Paul was, how much you have to look forward to in God Emperor. The 4th book is what the golden path is about.......
hm, now i'm going to have to go find my copy of the next three books before you get that review out. I can't remember the last time I read them. I know I left that god emperor around here somewhere...
I'm glad that you enjoyed the Dune series up to the third book. I completely disagree with you that Dune Messiah focuses too much on Paul. I don't find that true at all. If anything, the main character of the story is the ghola Duncan Idaho, with Alia as a strong secondary character and Paul mostly as the centre of the plot without taking over the narrative too much. We are left with Idaho musing about Paul's departure at the end, and falling into his role as the chief protector of the Atreides line. The emotional crux of the novel is not Paul losing Chani, but Idaho overcoming his programming.
*Spoilers for Children of Dune*
I understand you didn't talk about it but I just wanna say that Alia might have been one of the most tragic characters I've ever read and the revelation of what is wrong with her in this book left me astonished. Being considered by all to be a aberration, including by her mother who left her, and altough having the prescience just like Paul she always lived in his shadows. This book shows how the whole empire falls on her shoulder after Paul leaves and it just BREAKS her, making her susceptible to being taking over by the Baron in her mind and in her last momments she makes what is to be believed her actual last act of self control and kills herself, taking control over her life again by ending it on her on terms and not Leto's, her mother's or the Baron's.
I felt so sorry for her. She was not even born when her mother forced the memories of an long line of women on her mind .
This ^^ totally agree
she was one of if not my favorite character... until she fell
It took me a few re-reads for how much of a tragedy this truly was. Alia was never really her own person. She always lived in Paul's shadow. In universe, Paul had trouble seeing others with prescience. It's why Fenring could have assassinated him at the end of the first book. Others with prescience create a blind spot. After Paul walks into the desert, Alia thinks she's free. But Paul is still on Dune. His presence, prescience, and the degree to which he is involved with the events of this book, all serve to blind Alia's vision. It drives her to consume more and more spice, which opens her up to possession. All the while, she doesn't know her brother is alive. She tries so hard to be what the empire needs, but can't. Paul's presence in her future blocks her prescience completely and she never gets a chance to find out what she could be outside of Paul's shadow until it's already to late.
@@waynetrout4921 She never had a chance to be her own person . The sisters were not only adults but trained for years before doing the procedure but she was forced into it when her brain was still developing . She was never alone in her head . Her entire family throw her under the bus . At the end of the day Paul was such a coward. Leaving his sister, children to deal with the mess . The most coward in the family in my opinion.
i agree with your sentiments and thoughts. the dune series is definitely a series that seems to change with every book and that's so great
kind of goes off the rails the last few books
"There's not a family in fantasy that puts up with more shit than the Atreides".
Hurin's family says hi.
My favorite thing about this review was having already read God Emperor and chuckling at all the little guesses. God Emperor is going to throw you for a loop, and I am genuinely interested in your opinions on Leto II and his character progression.
Exactly what I was thinking. I can't wait for that review.
Same.
God Emperor was my favorite of the series and I can't really explain why, it just is. I felt similar as Daniel and every book that I read, I was content to let that be the end of the story. But God Emperor was so good and different that I knew already that I would read anything else that Frank Herbert wrote. It was not a mistake to have continued reading haha
I just finished CoD. I have GEoD but I am going to let to let it sit for awhile before I start reading it. CoD's ending was insane.
God emperor of Dune is just a masterpiece definitely continue
lol. GEoD is just bunch of phylosophycal talks. Worst in series.
I don’t mind it being philosophical but I don’t like it politically. Or it’s attitude towards sex (like the line where a character orgasms at at the sight of another rock climbing)
@@serhiyyurchuk I liked more than the first 2 books 😅 .
@@mariar3767 I mean it’s not trash book and I enjoy it. But if digg little more. Its not really awesome. But I feel like it’s needed book for Leto 2 arc. Like 1-2 Paul books, 3-4 Leto.
Agreed
I agree that the series matures as it progresses, which is crazy, considering it’s severity right out of the gate with book 1; Children definitely broadened my view of what sci-fic could be, and into God Emperor?… sheeit man, by the time book 4 rolls by, I’m thinking: if Herbert was born 2500 years ago, today we’d have both a Homer, AND a Herbert LOL
Truth!
True he is a epic myth creator in that regard
"God Emperor" is my favorite of the series. I'm told I'm odd for that. In any even, "Children" is a definite, solid second, so I'm glad to hear you're going to keep reading through at least "God Emperor". (At least it sounds that way.) I've always viewed "Children", though as "the chickens coming home to roost." Because Paul wasn't strong enough to make the tough choices, to do what he could see was needed to secure the future of the human race, the price came due on his sister and children. It's a lot more complex than that, but I think that still covers things.
I absolutely agree. I think God Emperor is what solidifies what this series is and what it's about because, in a sense, the main character is "the human race". And Leto with his prescience and racial memory is kind of the embodiment of the human race; it's past, present and future. That's why I love Dune and why I love God Emperor in particular, because it's not about individual characters, it's about us as a species. Okay...maybe it's a little bit about Duncan.
Nah. God Emperor is the best when considering the overall themes of the Dune universe.
I love them all but God Emperor was not my favorite but I respect the hell outta anyone who loves it. It just didn't have enough happening (plot) for me. I thought Leto became a big annoying with his talking and I never connected with Siona. It does have some of the best quotes and lines though.
Dune is what brought me back to reading a couple of years ago, and is how I first found your channel! I'm glad you got around to reading more of the series and am especially glad you've been enjoying the sequels! Can't wait to see what you think of God Emperor. Keep up the good work man! BTW you should check out Rendezvous with Rama if you haven't yet, It's awesome and apparently is going to be Denis' next film after his Dune stuff!
Same!
I read Garden of Rama and hated it.
I think a better analogy for the lack of "good guys" in the Dune universe is that it's something like Sophocles' tragic world, exemplified by Oedipus but deeply woven throughout his surviving plays. Paul is a shining example of Oedipus in that he personifies human achievement (partially constructed to be so by the Bene Gesserit breeding program). He represents the "ideal human" or the idealized human (dare I say "hero"?). And that's the rub. In Oedipus Tyrannos, the hero is constrained by fate, but his situation has been extrapolated (appropriated?) be existential philosophy and in that light, Paul is an extension of this existential "hero." However great their powers and good (in an existential world where "good" is not an absolute), they find themselves thrust into positions and "choices" that serve only to ensnare or trap them. There is no "right choice" for Paul to make, all the way back to the moment he and Jessica chose to flee and strive to live. There is no way to divest himself of the power structures he has created (and at the same time created him). Now he's the emperor of the known galaxy(?), and his mother is a traumatize wreck (substitute that for Oedipus' "crime" with his mother). He cannot save his wife Chaney, but to deny her the one thing she most wants (children). What's interesting is that Paul "won" in Messiah by losing his sight (literally and the oracular sight). He broke away from the chains that bound him to his throne. All it cost him was everyone he loved. Oedipus, meanwhile, is likewise blinded and wandering alone in banishment. The reality, institutions, power structures, etc. that constituted his world proved to be illusory. All of the "good" Oedipus did turned out to be something very different from what he thought it was. Sightless, he no longer acts with the bold confidence of a "good man" bolstered by his confidence is power structures and truths that only "seemed" absolute. Both Messiah figures, saviors of their respective peoples (Thebans, Fremen) are exposed as products human delusion. Gawd, I love this stuff.
Frank Herbert was a great historian and scholar of culture, myth and history of the likes. He is quoted in Dune talking about understanding the myth a man participates in. I think he tried to incorporate these themes plus much more in these books and it makes an epic to the level of the odyssey.
I'll tell you what I tell everyone else who ever mentioned to me they started reading Dune.
And that is: Don't even try to guess where the next Dune book is going just based on the one you've just finished. Whatever you're thinking, ol' Frank will surprise you.
Great set of reviews. I've always thought you couldn't get the full tragic character arc of Paul Atreides without getting through "Children of Dune".
If "Messiah" showed us the tragedy of Paul's feet of clay after having caused much evil through something resembling good intentions, "Children" fully reveals him as having also lacked the courage to himself do his duty in following the (necessary but horrendous) "Golden Path" that he himself saw - and instead passing that burden on to the next generation.
With something of a reconciliation with his son near the end, there's something that in other stories might have been depicted as resigned acceptance and a kind of redemption, but here can only be taken as an even further abasement of the reader's opinion of Paul's character.
Truly a modern Greek tragedy worthy of its predecessor(s) from Greek mythology - where the Atreides' literal namesakes (the descendents of Atreus) really do suffer under a multi-generational curse of the gods.
This is where Dune became something "beyond" just a Sci fi series for me. And I think Herbert is at the top of his game here.
Glad to see you're liking these books! I can't wait to see what you think of book 4! This series gets truly weirder and weirder with each book!
I’m approaching the end of God-Emperor now.
Children of Dune’s last few chapters have been some of my favorites in the entire series, but the book is a bit inconsistent, however, Alia is absolute God Tier. Arguably one of my favorite characters ever(I’ve only read Dune, Messiah and Children)
I'm so excited to see your thoughts on God Emperor of Dune, when you get there. I had many similar thoughts about just ending the series with Messiah, but continued on and God Emperor became my favorite book in the series.
The god emporer of dune will be fun.
This entire series is honestly a masterpiece. I needed a book to read for school, and had seen the movie not to long before so I figured I'd try and read it. At first the language and the way of words had me stuck and it took me some time to begin to understand it, but once I did I was hooked. I've been reading these books non-stop since, and its amazing to find out how much enthusiasm is behind the community these books have created. I am extremely excited to read the last three, and being able to share my excitement with everyone over a book series has got to be one of the best feelings ever. The way the book causes introspective thought is probably my favorite part, and I think its easy to say that you can learn a lot about life from just reading this amazing story. So glad I still have new Dune material left to read, and I am already dreading the sadness I will feel once I finish the series.
don't cry because it's over so on and so forth, Frank Herbert left behind some utterly incredible writing that I think gives the reader some fantastic skills for analysing the world around us. my partner and I read the first couple in the series last year, we're still going, but the concepts and ideas about societies throughout the past, even into the future, he's laid out already have been, frankly (pun unintended), life changing. there's a reason everyone who reads dune becomes that person asking everyone if they've read dune hahaha.
Oh wait, he's only reading through these all now?
I can't wait to see... *sigh* you know it's a great series when you can't even _allude_ to the spoiler-y things without spoiling them on some level. They are so good. I'm - I think I had a stroke of luck when reading the books when I was younger; I'd bought the first one because 'giant worms seem cool', and then found Children, [edit: this one exists, doesn't it] Heretics and Chapter House in libraries; had to go back from Chapter House to read God Emperor, but getting to see that part of the story early on meant that the last two books became basically my favourites.
What is there to say about them without spoling everything? Hrm - well, put it this way, Herbert had not come _close_ to running out of tricks to pull with the story, nor observations to make about people, by the end of book 3. The last two are great, and worth reading; they add to the books that came before in a lot of ways, without detracting from the ability of those earlier books to form a self-contained narrative.
I _could_ talk for a very long time about those last [edit] three books. But I won't, because it's much better just to read them and see for yourself the range the guy managed to squeeze out of this one series.
Edit: Though apparently I didn't love them _enough_ to remember that Heretics and Chapter House are in fact two separate books; probably because I read both back-to-back. So the last _three_ books are all worth reading.
I'm so glad you are continuing the series. I didn't connect with Dune, books 1 & 2, as much as I connected with the later books in the series, so I love when people decide to keep going! I'm curious to hear what you think about the next one.
I loved this series, read it too many times to enjoy now. I just loved the way humanity was going to be subdued no matter what and the children were going ahead with the vision.
I think Frank Herbert's greatest gift as an author was his ability to put us in the heads of his characters, in their voice. I know who Paul is. I know who Jessica is. And, he created a pretty amazing universe as the backdrop for his characters.
The characterisation was one of the main reasons i wasn't able to enjoy the original Dune. Characters just seemed to be either one-dimensional (especially Baron Harkonnen) or very bland. The only interesting thing about Paul is his place in the story and what he represents but i couldn't care less about him as a person.
@@diehard7517 I'll concur with you on the baron. Cartoony.
@@msj7872 yeah, it's like being a murderer and a hedonist wasn't enough, Herbert also had to make him a rapist, pedophile and be attracted to his own nephew.
I love how the more the story progres in later books Atreides become more and more rebel . They always have been the wild cards that changed the game and shape humanity destiny but we get more wild descendants in later books 😊 . Honestly I highly recommend all books . They are delicious
I love how I was able to predict what this review whould be more or less after listening your "I don't think I should continue this saga after book 2" xD
Now to wait for the God Emperor review. I need to see your reaction to that unit of a book.
Just finished Messiah, and I didn’t want to go further for the exact reason you didn’t, but you’ve convinced me to read further... at some point. I still think I’ll stop now to read some other stuff, and maybe even go back and start again from the beginning when I dive back in, since there are so many layers to Herbert’s masterpiece to dig through.
I myself am 4 books in, and right now I'm totally like "ok, I'm good for half a year to a year". The books are monstrous undertaking to digest and if you ever go beyond the second, not only is taking breaks in between nothing to be ashamed of, but also I can only recommend it.
Lady Jessica is the real villain of the Dune universe. It's all her fault.
women should just do what they are told😌a girl woman ..you needed to produce a girl😄
True and it's all because she chose love over duty. I don't think their is a finality in how the audience is supposed to take this though. Like most of Dune it is up to the readers to decide what's in between the lines.
Could give a 30 minute talk on your first sentence and my first sentence response to it haha
DAY #3 TELLING DANIEL TO READ HUNTER X HUNTER
God Emperor of Dune will blow your mind... The best book in the series
Great review! I have read the first 3 and agree that Herberts writing does evolve beautifully. Will you do a read-a long for the God Emperor of Dune (Book #4)? If I'd love to join in. I have not continued to the series past book 3...I'm kind of nervous about it. Anyhoo, love ya channel!
O my I hope you continue reading . My favorite book is actualy the last one 😊 maybe because is basicly powerful women fighting .
Excellent review! Just finished the book. Loved it. 8/10 is totally fair. It’s definitely got some of my favorite parts in the whole first trilogy. Loved the Preacher. It’ll be hard without him, but his son is Superman so he’s pretty compelling haha.
Poor Harah, I hope Stilgar was a good "father" replacement than Paul. Cause Paul did not care about his technically adopted kids. Honestly it was a little disappointing they were never used. Also, remove that stupid boxed water shit. It is so annoying....tap water is good.
I don't think anyone can really understand the story of Dune until you get to "God Emperor of Dune". It's also my favorite.
Loving the dune reviews
Really looking forward to seeing what you think of God Emperor of Dune. It has some really interesting choices...including, for some reason....let's say..."sexy rock climbing."
Just now marked the vid for Watch Later, all I can say for now is:
Get ready for God-Emperor. It is a wholly different beast from all previous Dune books. It’s grown on me over the years, but the first go was rough (in my late teens).
What I got out of this review is that you have labeled your restroom.
Okay the review was interesting too.
guess all dune's books are worth a read
All the ones by Frank Herbert definitely are. I can't really say the same about the spin offs in the greater franchise that came after his death, although some people like them.
I personally don’t like Heretics all that much. But it’s a hard book to skip
I loved Children of Dune. I would say it’s a good stopping point for the series but I myself want to pick up God-Emperor of Dune to finish off Leto’s story.
Do it! I really thought that it capped the story of the Atreides family perfectly and logically lays out the ultimate goals that began with Paul's journey in book 1. IMHO books 5 or 6 are superfluous and add little to the overall saga. Four is a worthy end. Had I know this I would not have read further.
From watching your reviews, it seems you like book 2 and 3 more than the original. Most people would disagree with that, but I actually think it’s pretty interesting.
Ooooh are you going to do the later books too? GEOD is great for a sense of scope but is basically just a giant monologue from Leto II. Frank’s last two books are endlessly fun though. Miles Teg is just a fantastic character and so much fun to read.
Miles kicks ass, even moreso as a kid than as an old man!
Chairdogs
@@HighdesertOgre Wonder what Daniel will make of the Honored Matres and Futars? Esp as the concluding duology is more Space Operatic, with spaceships going around casually blowing up planets like it's Babylon 5...
I think you would love Goodnight punpun.
Really enjoyed your review Daniel
I’ve read the Dune series twice through and I’ve not heard Paul be called a failed Prophet before, I imagined Paul saw his saviour story as including not only himself but his son too... and other Atredies
Get ready for God Emperor Of Dune!
SPOILERS FOR CHILDREN OF DUNE
This mf Leto II really turned in to an anime character lmao.
Yup. I was literally imagining anime visuals in those chapters instead of movie visuals for the rest of the previous chapters
Not to mention one of the most tragic female characters in SF - Alia
I think you'd love Made In Abyss, it features on of my favourite ever fantasy concepts ( the Abyss, an unexplored cascm containing numerous varied biomes with diverse ecosystems and unique yet terrifying monsters) also the relationship between the two leads is adorable. The anime is 13 episodes and a movie but there is a manga from which the show was adapted I haven't read it only watched but I assume given the quality of the series the books are amazing as well
@Jannes Ebeling you don’t enjoy any characters that are children?
@@acurlyboi2944 Or maybe they feel the pedobait which is strong with this one, especially in the manga.
that show was fucked up lol
@@megatron8490 true but it was soo good!
Can't wait to hear your impression of God Emperor of Dune. It is my favorite Dune book, one that I've reread the most, and that had a huge influence on my worldview.
How do reactors get their videos up so quickly?!
The wheel weaves as the wheel wills… there is no free will here similar to WoT
I've been slowly going through this book for like 6 months and I just happened to finish it the day before this review came out lool
I am gonna need to start reading dune. Its never been a franchise that's really grabbed me when I was younger but I do feel maybe now I might like it more the more I hear about it
For me it got so much better once we move pass Paul 😅 . Leto was so interesting and all the other Atreides coming after Leto
Would you consider reading and reviewing magical realism books like One Hundred Years of Solitude by Gabriel Garcia Marquez or Midnight's Children by Salman Rushdie
Just finished Children of Dune!!
Very Interested to see Mr. Greene's thought on book 4 which transpires millennia later, and solely focuses on Leto II.
I am just here because the video is new and I want to be one of the first to comment.
It is done.
God Emperor of Dune is going to be a trip! 😅 I'm glad you're continuing the series 👐
is that boxed water there on purpose?
Children of Dune was by far my favorite alongside the original Dune. God Emperor brings everything to a very satisfying conclusion, but I found it hard to read after Children. For reasons I can’t state cause spoilers. Lol. Hope you enjoy it though! Look forward to your thoughts on God Emperor.
Dune is a great trilogy.
Yeah, I know what I said. 🥊
For me, the story really takes off once Leto II experiences the vision of the Golden path, and hermetically seals himself with his destiny.
God Emperor of Dune is my favorite. Not many have been able to move past that one. Can’t wait to see your review 🤯
Another great review!
I'm also eagerly awaiting to see your review for the second Eisenhorn novel: Malleus. Love to see if it continues to impress you and increase your appreciation for (some) Warhammer 40k stories.
I have not watched this yet, but this book is my favorite fictional book, period. So I am excited to hear your thoughts. However, I only arrived at that conclusion once I was well into God Emperor.
Just wait until you get to the GOD EMPEROR. (loved the Twilight Imperium reference).
“Paul’s shadow…”
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Just wait.
Love the Dune series and these reviews have been great. Also I see that Twilight Imperium reference. If you like that game you should definitely play the Dune board game
Yeah I have loved all 3 books. So many unexpected twists and turns. Love them
Duncan Idaho is the protagonist.
Why him? He is gone is Book 1, right?
@@deanryanmartin He's in every book lol, as a Ghola but with his memories, so ya he's always there.
@@ZatoichiBattousai Oh. Now i know, I am having a scene of the 1984 Dune in my mind. He died there.
@@deanryanmartin Yes, because all heroes die for others, I am sure that was part of Frank's intentions in his writings.
I just finished Children of Dune about an hour ago. I’m still trying to process what I read. The whole time I’m thinking, “what’s happening to this family?”, but I felt like I needed to keep going forward.
I completely agree with you when you talk about how coldly the decisions are made. Herbert’s writing style is so different than what I normally read
"Silence! ... Did you not hear that man? Blasphemers and idolaters! All of you! The religion of Muad'Dib is not Muad'Dib. He spurns it as he spurns you! Sand will cover this place. Sand will cover you."
I've only watched the almost silver screen`s Children of Dune. In fact I first watch it of anything Dune. And I liked it much... So than I watched the old Movie with like ~Sting... and than there is one more Super Cheap Dune that Due to some reason I've had and watched but remember nothing of... (Or had because the external HD it was on have some sort of problems). Than for the longest time I Didn`t even know Dune comes of a very popular books as a Movie... But I've never read the books tbh. I watched this clip only because I've actually once upon a time've read Wheel of Time books (even thou as it turned out I nearly remember nothing of them in reality) but than the TV Show Became a Thing and I've checked this Chanel because of your TV Show comments of Wheel of Time (I've also been watching the tv shows while they were coming out, as someone that have gone trough the books). Than I checked a few more videos of yours out of shear curiosity... Maybe Sword Of Truth or something (which I've also happen to have read) and well. You amaze me as someone of your age that obviously have brain and read books and watch TV shows but does not actually game as everything you do... Why not? o_0. Install BDO, forget to Read... Just don`t touch Lost Ark because it will murder your brain.
SPOILER ALERT
I didn’t quite like the way Paul gets killed. I agree that it was necessary for the story and the audience to progress beyond him, but I think it was pretty cold and anticlimatic. At this point Paul was the full center of the Dune story and I believe he deserved a more climatic ending, more pathos, rather than just being removed from the equations in two lines.
SPOILER ALERT
SPOILER ALERT
I love the narrative of Paul’s actual death being parallel with his ideas and vision. How his legacy still exists with his children but it finally dies when Leto takes the step and goes for the golden path which he was scared to take
Just got done reading CoD. Out of the first three books my least favorite. Imo there were so many characters I couldn’t remember any of them. The ppl Leto meets in the desert while riding the worm. & then also I feel like there’s a book missing from this one and Messiah cause all of the characters that we know just felt so disconnected? Solid 6/10 Dune/Messiah are tied & rating for me cause they feel like the same book for me. CoD is the Last Jedi of Dune.
I'm sorry, but Children of Dune didn't do anything for me. So many retcons (e.g. Alia having access to the Baron; abominations meaning something totally different etc), subplots that are forced and end up going nowhere, the bene gesserit spending millenia breeding the ultimate human just so that human can turn into a worm, and the last few pages felt like they were just thrown in haphazardly. 1/5 for me.
The later books are not universally loved/liked. I loved them, though. I wonder what you'll think. And the ones written by his son.. Not my favourites. I read them to conclude the story arc begun in Heretics and Chapterhouse but they were lacking.
Not a fair poll. Butts would beat almost anything. Sanderson or butts? Dark Tower of Butts? LOTR or butts? Okay, maybe not that last one. Tolkien fans are far too sophisticated and "intellectual" to vote butts. But anything else and it's ass for the win.
Read God Emperor of Dune slowly. Trust me you need to listen to everything Leto says in order to understand what the Golden Path truly means to him and mankind. Then, when you read Heretics and Chapterhouse, you see how the Golden Path changes mankind forever. Glad you like it! Dune is my all-time favorite sci-fi series.
The outlook on humanity is so bleak. I loved the book but had to put it down multiple times because it just made me so sad. Humanity (spoiler!!) can literally only be saved by something inhuman. What!? But then again, working on climate change mitigation and seeing how that's been going, it seems to just confirm dark existential fears. A little scared and excited to read on
the first and second dune are my favorites. I didnt like CoD as mutch. there was just something that resonated with me with the first two. The philosophical themes of Religion mixed with government mixed with the almost Shakespearean tragedy story of Paul is just beautiful
I didn’t like Children of Dune. Book one is for everybody, book two for those that liked the first book, book three for the freaks that just really-really love the philosophy of Frank Herbert.
I feel like children of dune was too philosophical for my taste, I needed more action and politics, less monologue on spice fueled visions and philosophy of shared lives/minds in the same consciousness, etc.
I think I am one the few who appreciated Dune Messiah more than Children of Dune. I didn’t like the whole ‘Alia is an abomination’ where she gets tormented by her grandfather. I think the universe of Dune didn’t need that. Too much fantasy, too little sci-fi perhaps? Also what happens to Leto II in the end, was too farfetched. Not my cup of tea. I think the series will end here for me. I’ve enjoyed the ride nonetheless and I see how Frank Herbert’s influence on fantasy and sciencefiction still lives on.
9:41 SPOILER ALERT:
As someone who didn’t have it spoiled, the “is it / isn’t it” thing - i think meant to be very clear that it is him from the beginning, I always knew for certain that it was him. I think it was meant to be situational irony where we know but the characters dont, and that gives those of us who are invested in Paul as the main character reason to read on and care about the other characters and what’s happening outside of him because we want to see how they will react to him when they find out. I don’t think it was ever a mystery for the readers, in fact Herbert pretty much gives it away as soon as he introduces the preacher. He’s missing his eyes (not just blind), he acts as if he can see, he uses voice, he wears an older still suit, and everyone who sees him says he looks like Paul.
You'll love GEoD and when you get around to Heretics and Chapterhouse I'm certain your 🤯
God emperor of Dune is an absolute mindfuck of a book. 11/10 would recommend .
I agree with the statement that Paul isn’t the hero of Dune. Personally I believe that position should go to Leto. Even considering what happens in the next book, through his sacrifice (something that Paul could’ve done or he could’ve allowed his sister to do it) he was able to successfully save humanity from its doom despite how much pain it puts him through.
for a millennial, you fill me with a sense of optimism for the future. well spoken and concise with also a hint of humour makes your videos appealing for this gen x'er.
Product Placement.
Just kidding, I love Boxed Water
Daniel seems to be referencing Twilight Imperium a lot in the last few weeks. Seems like someone has been claiming some victory points and building some war suns perhaps? 🤔
This was the book that broke me. I hate this book sooo much. The best character, the planet Dune is totally neutered. At this point. It’s such a safe place and it lost all the things that make it feel special now I’m just left with these automaton humans I couldn’t care less about.
I like this book. I’m wondering if the next book God Emperor of Dune will break you.
@5"50 You think you are calling what happens in the next books? Please make that video!
The "is it Paul is it not" isn't very tantalizing because it's just like ya, that's him, before there even is a rumor this guy is paul.
In my opinion I’d say read the God Emperor of Dune and be done because after that there isn’t a conclusion that is Frank Herbert’s
IM READING THIS RIGHT NOW :)
This’ll be in my “watch later”
“Power doesn’t corrupt. Power attracts the Corruptable”- Frank Herbert
It's been a while... Where's that 'God Emperor of Dune' review?
Great review! One side note. If YOU want to save humanity, drinking water from carton is not good.
You will see how big the story of Dune is, how bad Paul was, how much you have to look forward to in God Emperor. The 4th book is what the golden path is about.......
Sorry for asking but when is the wano review coming? Are you going to cover the whole thing in ome video? That'll be too much
hm, now i'm going to have to go find my copy of the next three books before you get that review out. I can't remember the last time I read them. I know I left that god emperor around here somewhere...
I'm glad that you enjoyed the Dune series up to the third book. I completely disagree with you that Dune Messiah focuses too much on Paul. I don't find that true at all. If anything, the main character of the story is the ghola Duncan Idaho, with Alia as a strong secondary character and Paul mostly as the centre of the plot without taking over the narrative too much. We are left with Idaho musing about Paul's departure at the end, and falling into his role as the chief protector of the Atreides line. The emotional crux of the novel is not Paul losing Chani, but Idaho overcoming his programming.