Pagan Mythology and Rites: What do they mean?
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- Опубліковано 30 січ 2019
- How does one interpret the hidden meaning of a pagan myth? Some wise pagan authors help us to understand this, since they explained it in plain writing. One such author is Sallust aka Sallustius the neoplatonist, others include Emperor Julian and Plotinus. In this video I look at how Sallust's writing on the gods and the cosmos help us to understand not only myth, but also the meaning of rites and sacrifices and why they are so important for pagans.
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Absolutely your best video, I've met far too many "Pagans" who believe in Norse mythology for the stories without considering their metaphysical role and origin.
This is the reason why I always think poorly of someone who says they believe in norse paganism. Where as when I see someone say Im a baltic pagan I usually think uuu this man has studdied his own hystory.
@@baltulielkungsgunarsmiezis9714 do you have any good resources to learn more about paganism im genetically 99% British Northern european and want to learn more about my ancestors beliefs
@@logangoff8471 Nice YT deletes the comment if it contains any liks to things they dont like.
I'm no Pagan, nor Christian, I just love understanding the religions of what I'm researching because it's just impossible to understand it without understanding people's mindsets of the time. It annoys me when Atheists or "Witches" treat it very materialistically to the point that they view them as Atheists themselves or even adopt it into all that new age spiritualism feminist clap trap.
They do it because they think Pagans are somehow on our side(?) Like that makes any sense at all.
"Only a fool would try to reduce the immaterial to the level material, the superior to the level of the inferior..." Wow. This is why i subscribe on patron.
I think this is the only channel on UA-cam that genuinely makes me question my perspective on reality and faith. I was a naturalist for a while before I discovered this channel. I still find many of these concepts hard to understand. I feel like I am trying to piece together fragments from these isolated topics into a comprehensive worldview, but I find that task incredibly hard to complete.
The Intelligent Design movement has shown the clear need for a Supreme Intelligence to be involved with life from the cell to the cosmos.
They then contend that the Christian version of GOd is that creator, but that is not necessarily so.
Shaun , EVERYBODY finds it hard to piece together a comprehensive world view , I have been trying to do it all my life and have not got there , some people never consciously even try . I have come to the conclusion that it is an ongoing journey and that your view is continually being updated right up until the day you die .
Hard or not to understand by only intellectual approach. But the ancient Greek philosophers were all pagans. I myself dont need abstract spirituality, I practise rituals and consider all of nature as meaningful and sacred.
I am related to all what exists.
And I respect all my human ancestors not only the Christian ones.
Though I studied law I realized that paganism is
based a lot on personal experience and on extraordinary deep feelings.
It's very simple really. One key is needed, and that is the knowledge of the existence of the astral plane. On this astral planes ALL archetype and deity exist. The "currency" within the astral are symbols; symbols help one reach to a certain archetypal energy, they let us pinpoint that archetype. Gods are a force in the astral that a more powerful than others (daemons for example) and they can actually have real life effects on the physical plane. These ideas are seen in all ancient cultures. In my opinion hermeticism is the best source of this sacred ancient knowledge. In places like India, the Gods have received much mental stimuli by billions of people of generations, and therefore can be reached more easily, and are very present in the physical realm.
Robins are aggressively territorial so he (or she!) was probably telling you off for not asking permission. :)
The worm gift was a worthy tribute and setting a fine example.
As a Christian with an interest in philosophy, I find it really curious how "naturalism", or "naiive realism", however you want to call it, is actually the dumbest possible formulation of a worldview - yet the predominant view in modern times. The most basic disagreement isn't even between classically theistic Christians and pagans, but rather between (the few) people who grasp that metaphysics is essential and those who don't. Probably the strongest indicator of how primitive an age we really live in.
As someone who grew up Southern Baptist I think Christianity is probably the dumbest possible formulation of a worldview.
@@dkewlguy do you know why there's a pinecomb statue in the Vatican? As the OP kinda said, there's following dogma and there's understanding the principles. Any religion is dumb if you just follow the dogma.
@@dkewlguy There are far higher versions of Christianity.
Dumbest? A lot of worldviews seem dumb. Doesn't mean they have nothing to offer.
I would consider myself a naturalist, but I don't completely reject mythology as having no importance in history, just as a personl choice. I don't think Christians or Pagans are dumb, even if I disagree with them.
I think New Age Spiritualism is definitely dumb, though, as they necessarily plagerise and distort history. They annoy the crap out of me as they pretend to be irreligious, yet they are constantly trying to create their own religion as they add new things to it.
@@mmccrownus2406 but they still christianity.
As someone trying to get back into paganism, it really pains me that many in these circles reduce paganism to strictly the material.
They are practically atheists who get drunk in medieval clothing sometimes.
Eldrich Blacklion check out the Asatru Folk Assembly if there’s a kindred near you. Not larpers.
Noticing the physical connections between the myths and the material world is not unimportant. It's doubtful that these similarities are unintentional. The recurring themes that appear in nature are lovely signs left by the gods that there is something more to existence, something beyond the material. Giving praise to only the physical aspects of the gods without considering anything further may be missing the forest for the trees, but at least they appreciate the trees.
John Hathorne Look who's here, the vargtard king supreme.
@@donaldbolen9371 No, people who see the gods as metaphors for their own psyches are madmen. Worse than the most ardent nihilists, who also see themselves, flawed as they are, as their own god.
@@karldolphin7547 The AFA is not grounded in Traditionalist metaphysics.
I'm glad you're bringing this up. It's unfortunate but, even in heathenry, modernity is strong. National identity is, of course, important, but the function of myth is to 1) express metaphysics and 2) to create a community which is informed by those metaphysics. The order of dependency is top down. This is the exact opposite of romantic nationalism which seems to give primacy to the 'folk soul'. This narrow (almost chauvinistic) focus robs the movement of so much of the ancient wisdom. For example, I've met heathens who treat Nietzsche like a prophet (presumably because he was German), but have never even considered Plato or Plotinus (actual practitioners of the Old Religion). It's this lack of a metaphysical focus that opens the door to materialism. Anyway, you get the idea, so thanks.
Also, this video reminded me of one of my favorite passages from the Corpus Hermeticum:
Tat - ‘...if you consider it, O King, there are bodiless things in bodies.’
King - ‘Of what kind?’, asked the king.
T - ‘Do the bodies which are reflected in mirrors not seem unembodied to you?’
K - ‘Certainly, Tat, what good thinking,’ said the king.
T - ‘Are there not other bodiless things, for example forms which, although bodiless, appear in bodies; not only bodies with souls but those without?’
K - ‘You do speak well, Tat.’
T - ‘Thus the bodiless are reflected in bodies, and the bodies in the bodiless, that is to say, the physical world is reflected in the mental, and the mental in the physical. That is why you should worship the statues, because they contain the forms of the mind of the cosmos.’
Then the king, rising from his seat, said: ‘The time has come for me, prophet, to look after my guests; we shall speak about the gods tomorrow.’
not every myth is about metaphysics tho. Think of the Deluge, for example.
Scrap your first two points, because you didn't put anything regarding collectivism first, none of this wouldn't exist without the people. No, it's always bottom up since it literally wouldn't exist without people. You think it robs ancient wisdom, and it is your opinion, you failed to explain how it does or doesn't, you just say you disagree and leave it at that. You then bring up Plato in the middle of discussing Norse Paganism, epic fail.
There isn't such thing as a metaphysical focus, there is and always will be an observational perspectival focus. You take the result of one thing than ignore the former, all metaphysics comes from people.
Yes we get the idea and you don't, you're just seething and coping. We have new sharper knowledge which you fail to deal with paradigmatically. And the existence of this new factual knowledge doesn't somehow negate the existence of wisdom, you're just seething and coping.
@@Yarblocosifilitico You can't reason with these kinds of people, they literally live in a dream land.
@@NatCo-Supremacist metaphysics come THRU people more than FROM.
Hierarchy from Above is a most important reality.
@@mmccrownus2406 hierarchy from above doesn't necessitate anything supernatural for explanation
"coming through people rather than from people" is extremely vague and doesn't really answer any questions I have, then again I have no questions about metaphysics because none of it interests me as it is now, actual metaphysics, as in the physics of physics, does interest me, but that's a niche topic
I must say, you're doing great work on helping so many people continue the lost paths. Also helping on the understanding of many which by being raised as Christians don't understand myth and thus believe the gods to be actually dressed and look exactly as portrayed on popular paintings of the lore, also believing them to be as yahweh..,Ala..etc
Even as too many think Jesus was the incarnation of Yahweh....
I'm a fan of both you and Varg, and agree with much the information you provide, but I honestly wish you guys would have a civil debate already or just respectfully avoid mentioning one another in you're videos. Every time a new video gets released the majority of the comment section is "Muh Placenta" or "Gay Hindu Catholic Scholar". Its almost impossible to have a proper discussion on the topic of the video as everyone is busy starting pointless fights and insulting the other channel. This "feud" solves nothing and only alienates viewers like me who come here just want to hear different interpretations on various metaphysical concepts.
wahr saga i never make videos merely to criticise Varg. This video is not directed at him specifically but at anyone who succumbs to a merely naturalistic reading of myths
@wahr saga Agreed, it's all so tiresome and embarrassing...
I'm late to the discussion here, but I'll say that while I liked Varg and found him interesting, I felt like he was the one starting all the arguments. He had a problem with everybody and could sometimes be a bit childish about it I thought. The animosity was all his fault, TGO never made a video mocking him, and when he realized Varg's "criticism" (to give it a more dignified name) was never in good faith, he stopped making responses of any kind. STJ never went after Varg's work directly until after Varg attacked him over genetics, which Varg thought he understood, but in reality was just trying to justify his own preconceived notions.
The unfortunate part of all this is that Varg and STJ aren't a united front. Does anyone here really think that we can trust the Abrahamics? They have a long history of trying to exterminate us. Eventually, if we keep growing, they'll see us as a threat again. When that time comes, it would be best if we stood together.
On this topic, I definitely am on the STJ side. Varg's arguments are born of atheism.
Virgin civil debate
Chad fight till death
Greetings, I was just forwarded to your excellent video in the Roman Polytheist Group I am working in. Very important information, and I fully agree that we need to open ourselves to a deeper understanding of the Myths and the Gods. I had read views of Plato and Plutarch, but wasn't aware that Sallust also had made comments about the Myths. As a Sacerdos of Apollon I had once written an interpretation of the (sort of controversial) myth of Apollo and Marsyas. Alas, many of the texts of the classic era are lost, and the views of the Mystery Schools almost entirely.
I was fascinated to read in Plutarch's biography of King Numa, that during the early Roman times, the Romans had no statues of the Gods, arguing that it would diminish the limitless nature of the Gods to depict them as human beings. So we may assume indeed in the past a very spiritual view of religion in Paganism.
Scythians, Germans and even the early Aryans also had no temples. They worshipped outside and probably without idols either
I’ve been binge watching your videos for about a week and a half now. I find it interesting that despite me being a Christian and you being a pagan, I agree with a lot of your ideas about divinity. When you think about it, some form of theism makes more sense logically than the materialistic and naturalistic world-views we see being espoused today.
True
This is the most important video you’ve produced.
In PIE derived myth, the divine twins which exist as both the first sacrifice and first practitioner of sacrifice, are used to illustrate both synchronicity and the integral aspect of this fusion between the above and below that we, as both practitioner and offering, represent. This is the means of sustainment and that which is to be sustained itself, unified within the eternal order, that we may exist in the realm of divinity. Life as ritual, ritual as creation.
💖💖💖
An old woman I once knew, Would say a Robin that visits you is a spirit from a past life.
I think they are just chancers looking for an easy meal
Well i gave it a worm after the video which it accepted so i say that augurs well
Strikes the memory because a week to the day of her funeral, I find a robin in my kitchen! Whats the chances
@@sirhenrybiglingtonsimmerso1579 that's actually a pretty common belief, I have no idea where it comes from but up and down Britain people seem to connect the Robin to Reincarnation, past lives etc.
It might come from Christianity as there was a myth I know I've read about of the Robin getting it's red chest from something to do with the blood of Jesus whilst he was crucified and thus it's connected with the whole resurection thing and since has been asociated with reincarnation and past lives as we've moved away from Christianity as they're all related things, but it might be older. Interesting stuff though.
@FeralThought
It's a shame I can't recall the title, there's an old book about Germanic omens and symbolism of birds. I can't recall if it was focused on the British isles, or the Orkney or Shetland isles.... either way, a good read.
This is still my favorite video you have made. I come back and watch it every so often.
Great video. I'm always impressed with your true fascination and passion for the subject. Exceedingly rare to encounter both in someone giving such a wealth of personal knowledge to every and anyone interested. A highly in depth book about Norse mythology, the gods, practices, is 'Norse Mythology: A guide to Gods, Heroes, Rituals, and Beliefs' by John Lindow. Great read, very informative.
Great video. Absolutely killing it
Lifelong atheist here. I know that traditional paganism and atheism are probably more diametrically opposed then atheism and christianity are. ...yet I find myself drawn to it. I've always felt a deep longing to be in touch with my roots. My family is quite into preserving its knowledge of its past. I am Thomas M. Mills IV. Ive named my son the 5th. No one alive today knew my great grandfather, yet we all feel close to him. There is something about the past. Something that draws me in. I wouldn't call it spiritual. But its deep. And I find this channel enthralling...
Beanie scholar talks metaphysics in the woods. Love it.
Thank you for this video. I'm learning alot.
Well said and well researched !
Always excellent at every point
Very interesting video Jive! Loved the setting, the birds tweeting in the background were very pleasant haha.
I've been loving these consistent uploads recently, great channel.
This is a fantastic and much needed video. Thanks for posting it.
However, Sallustius is a very late source. Paganism had been fully transformed at that time (4th century), and it was competing with Christianity. In fact, Paganism had been evolving and Neoplatonists were quite responsible for this, with important innovations like textual exegesis, theurgy and the conception of the Platonic One, which had become a different entity from the one that Plato ideated centuries before. Pierre Hadot has very sharp arguments about how philosophy changed, and how philosophers changed Paganism in late Antiquity. Among the broadly accepted theories (unless you talk to fundamentalist Christians), we find that the God of philosophers, which is a triad in nature (especially in Plotinus, but also among the Chaldean oracles followers), paved the way-if not openly influenced-the creation of the Trinity. It is true that most Neoplatonists were Pagan and they are legitimate and useful sources for modern Pagans. But we need to be aware that their Paganism was very different from the Paganism of, for example, the late Republic or the Augustan era. Let's not forget that Octavian himself did promote a very important religious reform in Rome because he felt compelled to return to ancient, purer practices-a restoration of an idealized cultus deorum.
When reconstructing Paganism, we need to be aware that it was extremely dynamic and changed a lot throughout the centuries. Rüpke and Beard have a great deal about this dynamism and how difficult it is to talk about one single Paganism-not only in time, but also in space, due to the rise of mysteries and the push of syncretism since Alexander. In any case, this is not a defense of the naturalism approach of many neopagans today. They are just misrepresenting Paganism through Spinozian pantheism and a strong Romantic spirit.
Yes, and even now you refer to classical paganism, while most of the followers of this channel follow Germanic paganism. Yet, neoplatonism is an accepted philosophical development from an Indo-European pagan religion, just as Vedic religion of the Aryans developed into that of the Puranas.
@@Survivethejive absolutely, because the discussion is very classical per se-as I said, Neoplatonism is a legitimate Pagan philosophical system. Very Indo-European, as you would say. I just wanted to point out that Sallustius' Paganism is Neopltonic and thus may be difficult to embody the whole ethos of 'all' Paganism-even within Græco-Roman Paganism itself. That said, I'm very fond of Neoplatonism myself, but I see that Cato or Varro would find Iamblichus or Plotinus different from them. Yet, their difference cannot be compared to Christianity's extreme otherness in relation to Pagan thought. Peradventure Germanic Pagans would find Greeks, Celts and Republican Romans closer to their weltanschauung than Neoplatonists.
Probably. I think Scythian, Homeric Greek, Vedic and Germanic pagans had a similar worldview which probably didn't agonise over details as neoplatonists and vedanta do - but post-Christian pagans must contend with a post monotheistic position and the necessary polemics already developed in other polytheistic societies.
Survive the Jive totally agree, Thomas!
After watching your insightful videos, I concluded that the best way to connect with my ancestors is through following their religion and worshipping their Gods. It both reminds us of our deep and glorious history and our original collective values. Thank you, Mr Rowsell, from the Ancient Land of Aryans(Iran).
Been binge watching your videos. Love the content. You sum up in words what I have been screaming at my local pagan community for years.
One of your best!
There are two wrong ways people interpret myths: the myths are exoteric truths that are literal, or they are meant to be understood through materialism. It is very important to find higher spiritual and metaphysical meanings for our myths. Our ancestors knew this. What is the point of knowing the myths if they are completely literal? Thor swings a hammer and that's where lightning comes from... so what? What does it actually mean?
Thomas C the exoteric interpretation is not wrong but merely incomplete- it is suitable for those it serves
Erik Schmunzeler Of course. What I meant is that I would find it incorrect to interpret all of the myths in this way, i.e. Odin is actually a one-eyed man with two ravens and wolves... to me, that indicates some sort of symbolism that is meant to be deeply contemplated. Perhaps a better way of wording my statement is that different tales or motifs deserve different approaches.
You're work is amazing. I learn so much when there is so much smog on the internet on similar subjects. Much thanks .
Thanks so much for this type of content, a veritable Hermes.
The whole idea of uniting with the gods is very interesting, I’m not sure about others, but Orthodox Christians have an idea called ‘theosis’ wherein people through prayer, fasting and partaking in the sacraments try to become united with God, the sacrifice in this case is ourselves, we give up our worldly desires, passions and effectively our lives to become one with God, as I saw on an Orthodox T-shirt once, “I must die before I die so when I die I don’t die”. Unity with the other world seems to be a perennial truth, very interesting (I’m conflicted between Anglo Saxon paganism and Orthodox Christianity for reference)
Gamma Master You give them up because your life expectancy was about 30 years, your chances of surviving that long, slim and because your poverty assisted the powerful men of organised religion to propagate their own power. It’s not for no reason that the clergy fought so hard for so long to keep the masses illiterate or how your only path to a God was through them. The thought of an afterlife where you didn’t have to eat mouldy turnips or watch your children die of starvation made an “afterlife” very appealing im sure
@@chinboy66 This comment is actually somewhat based on mis-information. The "average lifespan" in the mists of time was indeed about 30 years... but that mainly accounts for the high child mortality rate, etc. Presuming you survived past childhood, you had every expectation of living very close to a modern lifespan, typically 60-70 years. Not "everyone" would die by 30, not much more than today at least.
What a great video, this is the kind of quality matherial I subbed for and its difficult to find in youtube.
One of the best on UA-cam STJ is.
4:44 such a wholesome moment :^)
Really good video, I myself worship Veles the Slavic god of death and the forests. In my philosophy I use him as a representation of nature and the complex cycle of life, death, and rebirth that goes on through out the universe and on earth.
Veles has a lot of resemblances to Odin. There are depictions of Odin that look just like the image of Veles. Odin (or Wodan) also performs similar roles as a god. I think your god is the same.
With divine intuition we can perceive the meaning in Nature. The metaphor I always use is like looking up at the Moon: we walk by the light of the Moon, but the Moon is not the source of the light, it merely reflects the source, which is the Sun. The Sun is separate and distinct from the Moon, just like Eternity is separate and distinct from the material Universe, yet we can perceive Eternity through its reflections in materiality.
Lovers of wisdom have always said that there two teachings, one for the many who understand the stories literally and another for the relative few who grasp the deeper metaphors. There are none so ignorant as those who refuse to learn because they believe already know it all.
will the Patreon exclusive videos ever be posted publicly, or will they be exclusive indefinitely?
Alkemisti not sure
I wish you two could make a single video with out passive aggressive jabs at each other. I happen to agree with both of you, I dont fully agree with everything HE says and I dont fully agree with everything YOU say. So when you insult each other back and forth the only people you are really insulting are the people who stand somewhere in the middle. Then you talk about how my very soul is at stake for trying my best to understand an ancient and cryptic religion and not totally agreeing with you, you sound like a Christian threatening me with hell for not going to church. I just think this entire spat is silly to begin with, I understand he has insulted you a whole lot but dont you think that you two could stop this bickering, at least for the sanctity of the faith itself? Like I said I like both of you, I think the two of you have a lot to offer, and I refuse to "pick sides"
There are so few similarities between Varg and Tom's religious thinking that they cannot rightly be considered the same faith.
@@user-ye6ty9ie8g It is quite apparent that he is talking very specifically about varg based on how emotional he gets when speaking on the issue of materialism especially the idea of pregnancy being related to myth. "It is a simple truth" no it quite frankly isnt a "simple truth" and how exactly will investigating the origin of a myth harm my soul? Once again I must compare you to a Christian priest telling me to go to church or it will "harm my soul" just a few days ago on live stream Tom mentioned that even atheists in pagan cultures (and I'm certainly no atheist) were still good pagans so long as they were partaking in the rites (which I am). So I must ask you, if I thoroughly believe in the gods, partake in the rites and sacrifices, but believe that myth and tradition have some base in nature then I'm doomed to Hel... or maybe you would spell it Hell! Ha!
Seriously though how can you justify that with out feeling like or acknowledging how much of a hypocrite you sound like?
@@EyeOfWoden That's absurd there is no orthodoxy in paganism and we can't rightly know exactly what we knew all those thousands of years ago, part of the 21st century pagans job as well as the job of our children will be to relearn what we had forgotten, even the pagans in Rome forgot what it meant to be pagan due to thier own greed which led to christianity. To say Tom or Varg is right 100% of the time is absolutely foolish, they aren't bronze age druids or neolithic kings, they are 21st century pagans just like you and myself and the truth is that we can't know what is the ONE TRVE PAGANISM till many generations pass and we relearn what is hidden from us in this modern age.
@@user-ye6ty9ie8g Oh I'm the one with straw mans eh? Am I the one who threatens someone's every soul without the capacity to present any semblance of a reason? I'm asking you a very simple question, why will investigating the naturalistic base of a myth "harm my soul" if you can't answer me that I will assume you are just parroting Tom for no reason other than you look up to him and look down on Varg
@@genralawsome244 You do not understand why your soul is in peril for you have not grasped what your soul truly is. If you're drunk from Lethes water you only succumb to Hades, you do not AWAKEN.
The soul consists of parts, the highest which is that which can be fused with the gods, united with them, in their image. Such a man, his name lives on as a symbol, a particular accumulation of eternal truths, and he is a Hero, we see this in hero-worship, Elysium, Olympos, Valhalla, the halls of Indra, etc.
These men are worthy to be remembered and reincarnated by virtue of them having ascended to divine status, by making themselves as gods.
The all projects itself through the Ideas into the Material. The Interim that we can perceive inthere are the gods. These we can use as a ladder, a rope, to reach the all, which is the one, God, with capital G. The problem with christianity is, that it uses this god as its main object of adoration, it's an inverted religion, it is sick, that's why it needs the trinity, that is why it needs the catholic saints, all of these symbolically potent objects.
Go read some fucking books, instead of just getting your knowledge from YT videos, ffs
"That which is brought forward will tragically taste of ash", I once heard teacher of mine say.
STJ It would be interesting to know your thoughts on the ancient Chinese Yin Yang Symbol and the Religion/Philosophy/Science of Taoism and it's parallels to European Paganism.
perhaps there's a connection between the Tao and the Wyrd
Thank you, Tom. Thank you.
What is the book called? I would like to read on this subject and add some books on the subject to the library.
Hey Survive the Jive, have you read Evola's book, "Introduction to Magic",? I know you have read a lot of his other works and I'm just wondering what you think about it and if you have personally started on any initiation paths yourself. In the book he has a translated version of the Mithraic ritual of the great magical papyrus of paris, along with a tonne of other initiatic knowledge and advice that is very indo-european.
Hey, can you detail?
As usual another video I had to share 👍👍
Love this... Just recently been drifting into paganism this year; still very much a "baby" pagan, and though I've been focused on a Greek-oriented version I've found I prefer some of the more "northern"-oriented channels by scholars like you for the best guidance… adding Sallust to my reading list ;)
A very important distinction; Not easily expressed, but thank you for expressing it as well as you have. I cannot comprehend what would inspire greatness in Pagan Europe, if not a genuinely spiritual perception of existence. And indeed, could we have achieved so much had our religion been 'natural' rather than 'supernatural'? I say not.
The pre-conversion northern European made no distinction between the natural and supernatural. What inspired greatness? ... a dís (or muse). She is a non-human person who breathes into you her essence of particular inspiration. She is not supernatural but a "less tangible" aspect of reality.
In this the pagan understood that greatness was not about any personal ambition either because they had no concept of the individual like we do. Great deeds honoured the tribe.
@@sleepingphoenix1281 What is the nature of this 'non-human person', in your view?
STJ-beanie and jacket is the essence of cultured thuggery, props to you my good Sir!
Excellent content. Please make a video regarding the different aspects of the Proto-Indo-european pantheon seen in more modern cultures. Such as similarities and differences between Woden-shiva Jupiter-tyr-Indra ect. And the theoretical Gods from which they originate. More videos regarding myth interpretation on a metaphysical level would also be very welcome.
See my woden video
This channel is gold 🔥⚡
I was expecting you to say "let's find out" :)
I would like to the read the book. I seem to not be able to make out the title and author in the video. Could you please share it?
Sallust on the gods and the world
Great video
I've only recently started learning about paganism and it's very frustrating how much Christianity wiped out, particularly regarding Celtic tradition and beliefs. What books would you recommend for learning more about such things? Any epics or that sort of thing? Thanks for all the information you share. I had heard of you before but didn't really watch your videos until now and didn't realize you are a pagan.
What pantheons would you like to know better? He has a book list on this channel.
Fantastic video. Where could I buy that book with the Sallust quotes?
Pet shop.
online
Survive the Jive where online exactly? Google doesn't provide me with any legitimate looking places to buy from :(
@@Rowbotftw Amazon unless you want to avoid Amazon which I would understand
Do you have videos on Celtic Mythology? Gallic and British/Irish?
Truly inspiring
Brilliant
Sallust was in fact from Gaul, it's possible he was a Gallo-Roman? What do you think?
One of the best videos on UA-cam. Please do more like this.
What is the book you are reading here?
Could you like... make a list of book review of things you think others (with basic understanding) should read.
erwin eichmann i have. It on goodreads.com the survive the jive reading group
Hey Jive, do you still eat liberty caps?
The decrying of the Egyptians and championing of the Greeks and your Greek buddy’s points have absolutely no substance: neither in terms of how the Greeks are so metaphysically-philosophically superior nor how the Egyptians are constructing so bereft of metaphysics in their cosmologies. I’m aware you stated that there was a historical degradation but again to hold any weight this point needs fleshing out. I’m sure there were many Egyptians as and/or even more metaphysical than your Greek boyfriend, and certainly ones with superior methods or argument. Apart from that I love your vidleos. And agree Wodin is the dankest of Gods 🤣😍 Although I’m aware you lean more to Frey... was it 🤔 Keep up the good work. One love bruv innit 🤜🏿
That said I appreciate your championing of the metaphysical and emphasising the sophistication of pagan thought. The Egyptians did it beautifully. To each Hermes a Thoth though.
Do a video explaining the afterlife
Your best and most important video so far. Great.
What is the song you use in your intro?
sunne by wolcensmen
@@Survivethejive Awesome! Thank you so much. I love your videos btw! Thanks for the content and keep up the good work.
This is the Pagan video of all time
What is the title of this book?
"On the Gods and the World"
@@leornendeealdenglisc thank you
WTF Jive!
Worshiping placenta is Varg's will and you question it?
Right? Lol. When is he going to burn a church down with Varg?
Schwingalongadingdong Nigga you ain't saying we wuzn't Neanderthals, right?
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@@johnhathorne5615 Literal gibberish with a lot of use of the word "divine" to make it seem like less of a naturalistic subhuman worldview. The placentist worldview goes like this: Every myth = symbolizes placenta = symbolizes pregnancy = (and here is the idiotic jump) symbolizes any metaphysical or naturalistic concept Marie Cachet wishes to insert here. This can range from retarded superstition like baking pancakes with eggs for good luck to muh divine mind to rebirth to lightning / the forces of nature (because it looks similar!!!1111). Its a subhuman worldview. The myths aren't a key to understanding the hidden truth of P L A C E N T A, but metaphysical concepts like the Gods, the existence of souls, natural law or divine will, and a placenta isn't the key to understanding anything whatsoever except the fact that childbirth is quite the icky thing.
The placenta stuff may have some relevance understanding ancient Heathen myths . However it is not a sliver bullet or the answer for everything like they would have you believe. It’s an interesting hypothesis but there is literally zero evidence to back it up . So sorry if you push that line and attack those who actually have evidence to back up their theories you start to look like uneducated hicks surely not the way to attract more people into a movement but that exact opposite in fact .
I was privilege to be have born in very traditional village in Indian and my Grandfather being a very reputable priest I can say your view of ritual and prayers in true.Ritual is essentially spiritual cultivation in one level and as bargaining in other level and is based of spiritual order i.e caste system. How ever I would recommend Thus Spoke Zarathustra to get better perspective form where we men of higher order view on gods.
All-too-Human Nietzsche didnt have a good perspective on th gods. Gods are not physical they are metaphysical and incorporeal but they are reflected in the physical
@@Survivethejive Ofcourse God is metaphyical .In Thus Spoke Zarathustra, the perspective Zarathustra saw the World as spiritual hierarchy and instances like 'the gods dance through you' highlights his i.e Zarathustra position which is of other-worldly superior position. I have mentioned this book as I have found it to be very meditative. And my concern is not with Nietzsche but with Zarathustra. AND become of you I have read few Evola books i.e Doctrine of Awaking, Meditation on top of Mountain,Men among ruins and Magic and tantra. But I still find Zarathustra better.
Hey I love your contain.
@@Survivethejive As you are aware of Jung I think you are aware of my position but not including Jung seminar on thus spake zarathustra but from Archetypes and Aion as I think in Jung saminar he was too personal because of his Christian Background.
Not to confuse I am not interested in word play of 'Metaphycal' definition but its ontology i.e the rational component of Plato 'Rational Animal'
All-too-Human ok but you know that book isn’t about the real zarathustra right?
Julian the Apostate was a hero, change my mind
He wanted to rebuild the temple of the jews and he also died and failed in his mission. There. I said it.
Wondering Lion palestine was under roman control and the jews lived there. Why should he have opposed their temple? He saw christians as a greater threat than jews
@@MrDidntdrown I am a Christian but I have to say that's dumb. There is no such thing as western civilisation. Norwegians and Spaniards share little in common. There is not, never was, and never will be a single unified western civilisation. Romans did not have any sense of kinship with the Germans because they had none and Italians still do not have any kinship with modern Germans because they are not the same people.
Diocletian did nothing wrong!
@@sulphuric_glue4468 You're confusing "civilisation" and "nation."
is there a good guide to basic pagan rites and sacrifices?
ah, just getting to the 15 minute point in the video! that helps
Book of Troth should be good
I made a video guide
What do you think about xenophanes and his thougts about the gods?
We are survives im a pagan and your best friend
If the physical world is evidence of Gods, then are Gods evidence of something that must have created Gods? If not and these Gods are beyond comprehension, then why say the physical world has a comprehensible explanation where these Gods do not?
Siegmund Sieg gods are all aspects of the One which is infinite and without any contingency
@@Survivethejive The One being? Where can I read more about this?
@@siegmundsieg6852 the idea of the One roughly speaki g iriginates with Plato, although their are sinilar concepts that crop up in many world religions, particularly Indo-European religions (e.g. traditional Slavic and Hindu religion). Of course, I understand that many European pagan revivalists may be hesistant to look towards Hinduism do to its connection with non-European peoples and modern leftist types, but traditional Hinduism is strongly rooted in the most ancient Indo-european traditions.
I want that beanie 💯
Hundwyn Carlson its for sale on my teespring
This is what I imagine it would look like if Lindybige went through a neopagan phase
Does Paganism have any notion of big G God (Source) permeating all creation and beings or is it just gods? If not is this not a major metaphysical floor?
Read Julian's writings for a deeper answer on this, but basically yes and no and yes.
@@user-ye6ty9ie8g Which is Greek? As a North European I am curious as to whether my ancestors conceived of this notion. The Greeks I assume were metaphysically light years ahead of the Germanic peoples.
@@user-ye6ty9ie8g Great insight. Thank you.
Yes it is discussed at length by neoplatonists but they see this as impersonal and we pagans do not worship or even name this One directly
The trouble with this strong non-materialism is that it very easily, almost inevitably, leads to a pessimistic view of physical reality which is absolutely inconsistent with pagan source texts, all of which speak continuously of very physical, practical, worldly virtues (courage, industriousness, passion, etc). Neoplatonic sources, while interesting and of value, are very difficult (not perhaps impossible) to reconcile with the spirit of the source texts. Neoplatonism is to Western paganism what 'Hinduism' is to the Vedic. They are departures. Whether you think the departures are good or bad... is another question.
While there are people who stupidly interpret everything materialistically, the opposite extreme of insisting there is some transcendent beyondness to everything, is just as difficult to support.
No it doesn't. The physical is a representation of the immaterial so why would one be pessimistic about it? We are not talking about Buddhism!
I'm of the opinion that 'for everything seen, there are nine things unseen", but that 1/10th is still part of the same whole that the other 9/10ths are a part of. I don't think that the sun deity, for example, consists only of the physical orb of the sun, but surely the physical orb of the sun is at least part of what makes up the actual totality of the "body" of the sun deity, or else why use the sun in the myth at all? As above, so below, and all that. If someone sees only my hand protruding from a doorway, and they know that it is my hand, they can still say "there's So-And-So" without believing that I am only a hand, yet still know that the hand is still indeed *actually me* rather than an allegory of me. Or by naturalism, do you mean the belief that the physical orb of the sun (for example) is the totality of the deity?
naturalism reduces the entirety of the divine to apparent nature
How do you not have 150 thousand subs? Such good content.
@@ukrainiansareproto-mesopat9235 they would've done so with varg first i imagine. who is now at 200.000 subs. which is mind boggling. varg is the definition of a perfect propaganda artist. tells some truths sprinkled with fairy tale lies. thank you STJ for keeping it real.
@UpwardsTheMagneticTree Valkyrie88
What... water does tend to stick to surfaces, sure it takes the shape of the bounds its in, it's a liquid. Test this for yourself in a vacuum.
edit: came back 2 hours later to actually fully read your comment ( and to try and understand it, it is worded very weirdly)
''NASAs heliocentric spinning ball globalist lies''
being the GROUNDED person that i am, i can quite easily teach you how you can test what shape this earth is. used in the military as well to check the time ( sundial).
imagine this. i am on the ground and place a 1meter stick in the ground, now i send my friend 10KM east of me, he does the same thing and places a 1meter stick in the ground. if the earth were flat, the shadows casted by these stick would be the same length, BUT they are not. one is always shorter, due to the curvature of the earth. now there's more ways to tell, positions of the stars, taking a fucking plane trip, watching a lunar eclipse. all easy ways to tell for a grounded, sane person. but i'd love to hear a refutation. i'll throw away our knowledge on gravity, physics, and the stars, maps ( all things testable yourself might i add) and entertain myself with the moronic ideas that are yours.
another thing, what exactly is gained by tricking people that the earth is round?
I am not surprised that this is the average varg watcher, thinks he's smart enough to talk, yet too stupid to make himself a telescope and think on his own.
Here is my answer:
You claim that we say that the gods are natural phenomena and physical things. You claim that this interpretation is a degeneration.
You throw before us the necessity of a metaphysical interpretation, but you don't give any. Simply, you say and you repeat: there is a metaphysical interpretation.
I will answer you that way. On our intentions you are mistaken. Never, NEVER have we/I denied the metaphysical interpretation. My first book "The need for the impossible" is a philosophical book only about metaphysics. I would like to debate with you about metaphysical topics, this is probably my favorite subject, before the interpretation of myths.
What you don't understand in "our interpretation"is in fact very simple to explain.
You say : " Because he knows that that physical realms is the evidence of something beyond, something that created it, something that is superior to it. All religion serves this function. Only a fool would try and reduce the immaterial to the level of the material, the superior to the level of the inferior. Someone who is incapable of perceiving the superior. That is what the intellect is, the intellect is not merely the rational faculties... The intellect is the divine intuition. "
I answer you as following:
There is no world beyond, there is a world here, and this world precisely is infinite, this world precisely contains infinity in it. Your vision of the world seems to be like this: There is the material world, and there is what could be called infinitude, outside the world.
Yet will you deny that the infinitude of the world is not in the world itself? Is not the universe infinite? And in fact is Nature not infinite? Infinite in its geography and in time, but also infinite in its creative power, since by definition if it is infinite geographically and in time, it is an infinite creator.
The creator is Nature. The Nature you see before you, in the material itself. Spirituality is in matter, metaphysics in physics itself. BEWARE: I don't say, and I NEVER said: "there is only physics", but I say metaphysics is in physics.
You access yourself to the divine intuition of this infinitude by your thought, which is related to the matter, so the material and especially the understanding of the way in which matter are arranged can make you understand this infinitude.
Yes sacrifice and prayer connect us to the divine. The divine is Nature. Gods are Nature. Gifts are given to us by Nature, and by returning some of these gifts we accept that the balance of Nature must be maintained and that we must not take everything. We have to give too.
Your vision of things seems to be summarized as follows: I receive from the divine creator, out of the material, signals that tell me how to rule over Nature (the physical and material world) which is a heap of matter with little interest.
Mine is like this: The divine is in Nature, that's why I submit myself to Nature, Mother Earth, the infinite Universe, the gods, which I recognize as grandiose, infinite and creative and which I accept to learn from, what I do on a daily basis by using the faculties it has put at my disposal (namely intellect and instincts: divine intuition) and never reign over it/them.
I'm "mad and insane", or "a fool", according to you, but strangely my logic holds the road.
Thanks to Nature, Thanks to Mother Earth, Thanks to the Infinite Universe, Thanks to the Gods, Thank you for all the gifts, and thanks for my intellect...
This is the sort of thinking that leads to pantheism, and thence to atheism. It's just that you're less progressed along this unfortunate path.
He clearly refers to materialists whom ignore the metaphysical and the superior status of the gods, he wasn't denying the Devine relationship with Nature. It probably wasn't a indirect critique to yours and your husband's interpretations.
"Nature, Mother Earth" Lmao this is some real cthonic underworld shit not typical to Europe, once you bring divinity down to the level of the material then there no longer is divinity, the divine is always above the material. Of course nature is mysterious and wonderful, divinity formed it so.
Colonel: Space and time are infinite, because even if you limit them, then it means that there is something else after, which is infinite, and which can be called space or time.
But it's more complicated than that. In fact, and as explained in my books, which are very focused on metaphysics (on the contrary to what is claimed here), there is only the point of view that creates the limitation of time, ie the point of view that you have in your human body, finished. Indeed, there exists only the present, and in the present, in the moment, is Eternity. However, our limited body dependency prevents us from "stopping" it and embrace it. But this Eternity is in time and space, everywhere.
@@mariecachet867 But you DO understand why Thomas is hurling these accussations at you, don't you? At least from his own perspective, it makes complete sense for him to do so, when the myths, traditions and rites of our ancestors are "reduced" to natural functions such as birth or parts of the body and hormones. Yes, you do not see this as reduction, you have the right to your own interpretation, but you and your husband have to come to terms with the fact that this IS a naturalistic way of interpreting the myths. You saying that METAphysics is IN physics creates a hierarchical structure, in which something that is superior to the latter is placed INSIDE of it. Just as I can't say that a skeleton IS the body, while in fact its just a part of the body.
You have a very Nietzschean view on things, specifically it reminds me of the passage on Twilight of the Idols where Nietzsche explains how we have "killed" the only true world (physical) by introducing a spiritual, higher one (metaphysical reality). However, Nietzsche cannot be studied outside his own limitations as a nihilist, and while his critique of Christianity is flawless, we must not confuse the two approaches to the metaphysical, the ancestral European understanding and the Christian one. The Christian metaphysical worldview "kills" this world and castrates it, while the pagan one affirms it. HOWEVER, this does not suggest that in the pagan worldview the metaphysics and the divine are just part of the material world around us, with no transcendental understanding to be gained.
Is there an alternative philosophical alternative school for the interpretation of the myths? Because of matters of history neoplatonism was the hegemonic philosophical school amongst pagans when christians started to persecute them, but I am wondering if it was the only one. Thanks.
Neoplatonism is one that survives and is a later one. One may look to Vedanta from India instead. But wherever one looks, there can only be one truth.
#folkright
What is your explanation for pagans that survived isolated fully in Slovenia. Their preserved all philosophical knowledge of the religion. And they called themselves old believers and Nature worshippers. When they asked they do you pray? They answered to what shoud I pray. To that AUTHENTIC religion that survived. Most important things were their forebears, nature and natural forces.
Rene thats not true
Brother just come to kumbha India it is till march
Visit here..
Great video! Thank you for introducing me to this great Roman historian! Ive already begun to read him. I disagree with you on a few points. I am an animist naturalist Wodenist. So in a sense I consider myself a target of your argument. I dont think that its accurate to speak of a pagan worldview. I believe that there are many different pagan worldviews. I believe the opposite of what you state. I believe that the Romans that you quote are the exemplars of degenerate late stage paganism. These were cosmopolitain pagans already corrupted by leisure city life philosophy and monotheistic Platonism. I believe that once one is no longer a hunter gatherer and longer depends on a tree or a lake for actual survival it becomes an absurdity to deify what by then becomes a mere inanimate more or less useless object. To a cosmopolitain a tree or lake are trivialities. To a primitive society entirely dependent on them they are gods. December 25 all around Europe has been a celebration of the actual Sun. These were not philosophers who felt a need to justify and intellectualize or rationalize their gods. That comes later in the civilization stage of history. In fact that form of late paganism was spiritually dead and quickly fell to Christianity. I believe that Woden is the sky father and the Sun is his one ever wandering ever watching eye. We may disagree but I think you are in error when you belittle others beliefs. They are well considered. Guard yourself from dogmatism.
No hunter gatherer ever worshipped woden. your worldview is novel and anti-traditional.
Survive the Jive Woden is not the original name. It is the name and myth we use now. Before that he had a protoIndoEuropean name and before that when our ancestors were hunter gatherers they worshipped nature and those names are unknown being prehistoric. I belief that you are trying to freeze paganism into one belief and one time period and calling that tradition and all previous tradition nontradition.
The Indo-European religion emerged among a pastoralist culture who raided agricultural societies and enslaved them and hunter gatherers. I am not trying to freeze paganism as it was then which is why I do not bury chariots or carve axes out of stone.
Survive the Jive Before one becomes pastoral one is first hunter gatherer. Pastoralism was a later stage. Why in your opinion is the name for the natural phenomenon thunder and the god himself poses have one in the same name? Thunor literally means Thunder. Why is Yule a Sun festival and also Wodens festival? Why did other early cultures worship lakes natural phenomenon but not us at any time in our development while at the same time naming our Gods the same names. We have been first civilized and later Abrahamized for so long that I think we have lost the roots of our faith. Cultures like Chechens for example who were not hunter gatherers but warriors like our people still worshipped lakes and still celebrate the Sun on December 25. They have only been Abrahamized for a few hundred years and civilized for much less. I believe that they provide an example of how we believed at an earlier time in our development. I think civilized Roman philosophers are too far removed from their roots to represent what our forest dwelling ancestors wouldve practised.
Can we have title of the book you are reading from? And many many thanks for your hard work.
Ulf Nilsson on the gods and the cosmos
I believe the idea that mankind can comprehend god's or their will is foolish. I think to do so is just an attempt to give purpose to our existence. All other creatures on this earth just live each day and enjoy what they can of this world. Perhaps that's all we are meant to do? Enjoy what is given, not abuse what is given, nor let it go to waste. Just live how we see fit within a balance alongside nature as we, mankind, are just another part of nature.
Very very good. Thanks.
So question according to multiple sources when the Vikings attacked Paris they offered up French soldiers as an offering to Odin on a small island in the middle of the river is this slander or was it done as a sign of respect? there are certain things about these sources that seem incongruous and I would like a little bit of clarification
Seems perfectly possible that this occurred. 111 executed as a show of strength can double up as an offering to Odin who brings them victory in further battles
@@Survivethejive blood for the blood god but literally
The Same sacrifice was offered to Wotan by the German tribe Cherusi after the Romans lost the 17th 18th and 19th legions at the battle of tuetoburg . Many Dead Romans were strung up in the trees and offered in sacrifice to ole one eye . Apparently Emperor Augustus banged his head on a wall for days moaning “ Varus ( the legions commander , who fell on his sword when the battle was hopeless , ) Varus , give me back my legions ... great story . Definitely a place I’d like to visit along with Die Externstiene .
thank you. very interesting. what do you mean by naturalistic interpretation?
piero san giorgio its a school of thought which sees mythology as a means to explain natural phenomena
@@Survivethejive thank you for your answer (and great channel btw), but dos that school thinks that pagan people then used gods to explain natural phenomenons, or thinks NOW that gods then by default explained natural phenomenon. I ask, because I write about this in one chapter of my next book and I wouldn't want to get it wrong (you can contact me if you want, we could chat 5 minutes on skype). thanks.
@@1pierosangiorgio en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_naturalism
thank you@@Survivethejive
Absolutely fantastic. Thank you, Tom.
What I find disturbing, is how our old European religions/beliefs/stories are labelled myths; but the sand-religion/beliefs/stories are presented as "gospel truth".
That backward worldview of the Egyptians sounds very much like Varg's interpretation of Northern Paganism.
yes. However I think it was an unfair characterisation of Egyptians, although maybe it was a trend among them at that time
I think the naturalist interpretations are more plausible personally. I mean was the average pagan joe working the land back in the bronze age really thinking this deep about metaphysics like the city-dwelling, greek philosophers were?
Of course the peasants didnt understand the higher initiatory levels of paganism just as indian lower castes dont have full Vedic knowledge of the Brahmins. Only abrahamic religions like islam and christianity are geared up for the lowest man. PS: you think the average pagan joe knew about sperm cells and hormones as varg and his wife claim?
please, make your voice louder compared to other sounds
Seems that all the studies I've done on ancient religions, ritual takes main stage for most pagans throughout history. Do modern traditionalist pagans perform sacrifices? I hope I'm not insulting anyone. Just an ignorant atheist trying to learn...
Yes they do, I for one know people that practice a blot with a rabbit sacrifice once a year.
@@ProfessorShnacktime Interesting. I dont believe sacrifice to be immoral. It can be done in immoral ways. I find it endearing when people are in touch with their heritage.
🤔
I think most of this is highly applicable to Christianity. Not in a direct way, and there are differences such as the indifference of gods and benevolence of God, but facts such as metaphysical communication with the physical (hagiography, churches), sacrifice (except in this case it's undertaking sacrifice such as fasting) and of course embodiment, as there exists a number of priests who say that to man it is to embody Christ (God's human presence) which is also evident with bread(/communal wafers) and wine
But I'm really curious what would be some aspects which would make Christianity a "improper" religion in this respect. This is from an Orthodox Christian perspective, criticism of Catholicism need not apply.
Miloš Golubović yeah christians just stole a lot of neoplatonist ideas
To answer your question - it is idolatrous and impious to pretend to know the supreme One who is all things. You cannot know it. It is impersonal. Imposing a human personality, gender, fatherly role and even a human form are gross impieties of a primitive sort. All our gods are merely aspects of the One that we are capable with our limited faculties of perceiving. Thor is a perfect representation of pure strength - which is merely a contingent aspect of the One and therefore within our grasp.
Sorry for this belated response, and I understand if this comment leaves unattended, but I think that (Orthodox) Christianity is really a religion about mysteries. The central thing which is the most defining feature, which separates it from most abrahamic religion the most is the existence of the Holy Trinity. It cannot be explained, even though blood was spilled for it's interpretations, quite paradoxical I agree. However, it is something priesthood cannot answer (either due to refusal or a common ignorance of this holistic concept). Then you have the fact that the Catholic sacraments sre called mysteries in Orthodox Christianity, and the fact that they are simple, rudimental things such as marriage, their lack of interpretation doesn't reduce them (like Ra is reduced to solar cycles etc) rather amplifies the significance of these acts.
And Jesus Christ is also a reduction of the hard metaphysical nature of God into a human, tangible form, which is the ideal every mortal should follow. There are also Saints which also represent some kind of aspect or trait relatable and/or to be followed (St. Nicholas as a charitable man, St. George as a soldier, Emperor Constantine as a leader, St. Stephen as wrongfully convicted, mirroring the aspect of suffering in Jesus' figure)
Also there are Angels and other holy beings which are an elaborate and literal (Deus) ex machina
What confuses me is the following: Why does (Orthodox) Christianity contain so many Indo-European elements, but is also considered un-indo-european? I would also like to mention something that almost slipped and that is the clear remains of paganism that survived to this day (such as St. Elijah replacing Perun) in forms such as dancing around oaks, burning of oak and various religious holidays which correspond with pagan solistices and festivities. Yet until the emergence of slavic mythology in the 21st century (practiced today by young, atheist 'madmen') most people were staunch monotheists. To the point that it is deemed heretical and undermining to the holy trinity and some other aspects. Which can be seen with postmodern "spirituality" which takes it to the next level, yet still keeps the monotheism. This is why I feel deeply concerned and confused about my spirituality, especially because the political entity of Serbia (my country) was founded and especially solidified by Christians, which could extend to many more countries (Constantine, Charlemagne, Knyaz Vladimir of Kiev, Harald Bluetooth etc)