Diesel Fuel Systems 101 part 2. Common Rail, EUI and HEUI.
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- Опубліковано 23 вер 2022
- Discussing Common Rail, MEUI and HEUI fuel systems. Describing their operation and pros/cons of each. Thanks for watching. Adeptape@yahoo.com on PayPal for donations.
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Just got through your whole 101 course and just wanted to say a big thank you! You are the only UA-camr I have found who is TRULY beginner friendly, which is huge... and yet you're able to explain all these complex concepts so clearly and simply. You have a gift for sure... thank you so much again! 🙏
Hey, thanks for watching the videos and I'm glad you enjoyed them.
Just looking at your piston to cylinder wall clearance tells me that thing is going to smoke like crazy!!!
Mike, that is a keen observation.
Lol. Thanks for the laugh.
Picture is not to scale! Lol
You can see the piston rocking, the P to C clearance is very bad…
Love your knowledge mate, I work in the mines in Australia and also at a cat dealership, you would be a great in-house trainer( I’m sure your probably already training other techs), your company is lucky to have you, keep up the great work 🔧⚙️🧰
Been using your videos and the delmar books to try and pass the ASE’s love your videos on refreshing what I know.
Motor age is good books For ase prep as well good luck brother
Awesome long video. Thank you sir. Live them, the longer the better as your content is fabulous!!!
Very good video, easy to understand. Be safe.
loved the video josh! always love to learn something new around regarding heavy equipnent! also i do have to add a little note to the common rail injectors and that its mostly more complicated on heavy duty as they will usually sit inside the valve cover requiring quill tubes, medium duty and lower will more freqently have it exposed in a valley on the valve cover making it much easier put your greasy mittens on them xD
You're answering questions I never knew I had, thanks 💯
What a great man you are! Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
Awesome Video as always brother... Looking forward to every new video you put out as it helps to always brush up on these topics even though we work with these systems/circuits daily. Have an awesome week! Peace out ✌
The navistar powerstroke 7.3l has a brass injector cup that separates the fuel section of the injector from the coolant passage in the head. I presume the purpose is to help cool the injector. Well those cups can crack and leak fuel into the coolant system. So if you ever open the coolant reservoir on an older powerstroke and smell diesel or more frequently see a truck with a coolant system full of diesel, then it needs cups and also very likely needs all new coolant hoses. Might also need a coolant pump if the seals are shot from the diesel.
Good information. Like the 3116 engines with the copper cups.
Happens on 6.0s too
I work mostly on fleet volvos here in Brisbane, Australia. Mainly B7Rs and they are they same with the copper cup, we tent to get the coolant in fuel (we obviously drain and flush both systems) they are a bit of a pain to do also
Excellent video Josh.
Great video. Very informative Adept Ape.
Terrific video Josh. Thank you for making it, TMP from N.J.
1. Common rail fuel systems are now being used on large marine engines, so we now have CR engines that can run on crude oil.
2. Most electronically-controlled low-speed (below 300 RPM) Diesel engines are now using hydraulically-actuated injection pumps. Yes, those ultra-slow, bigger-than-your-house engines have HEUI systems (although the injection pumps aren't located directly above the cylinders).
I'm looking this up, but can you tell me an example model of each mentioned engine? Is the application of the second style for power plants, or something else?
@@guy386
1. The 32/44CR and 48/60CR engines from MAN Diesel
2. Low-speed 2-stroke engines are primarily meant for large ships, though they do make stationary versions for power plants as well.
The worlds biggest engine Wärtsilä RTA96-c with 109000 horsepower and 1800 liters of displacement uses commonrail with electronic injectos as far as i know
@@ukkomies100 I think the RT-flex engines use hydraulic unit pumps as well.
@@electric7487 ok. There might be both systems in use. I remember reading some of the newer ones have commonrail
Love the effort and knowledge that u share time in and time out. Keep it up man. Just picked up a bxs cat if I got any questions ik who to ask 😂
Loved this series 👍
On a heui the fuel injector multiplies that oil pressure about 10 times to the fuel pressure so if you apply 3000 psi oil pressure and it fires for the maximum time the system would actually be applying 30,000 PSI at the injector nozzle
One critical thing on HUEI engines is oil quality. Something such as a dead cylinder dumping soot into the oil will wipe out the tolerances in the high pressure oil side of the injectors pretty quick.
Outstanding video! Thank you for sharing I had no idea. I just went to school.
I'm all for mechanical simplicity but common rail diesels, the pre-emissions ones are where it's at!
Pure mechanical injection just really can't compete with common rail!
All the other injection designs were simply a stopgap until common rail was commercially available and reliable, similar to GM's TBI which was kind of a middle ground between a mechanical carburetor and a full fuel injection system, it was a stopgap and it did its job decently well enough.
Pretty amazing video man. Great job explaining. Cheers man.👍💪
Thanks for watching Jeri, I'm surprised when people that know this stuff already still watch it.
@@AdeptApe I do know most of the stuff. I watch it because love of mechanics. It is interesting. Catching someway of explaining it to next person. That they will understand. Also support of the channel. Cheers man.
Thank you for the great information
It's interesting that the most modern diesel fuel system is the common rail version, which is described at length in a 1948 vintage textbook I have on internal combustion engines. It suggests common rail fuel systems will be useful only for very large diesels, such as those on ships and railroad engines. Of course, there was no ECM back then...
Love the videos man! Your a huge reason i’m getting into diesels and bought a vw tdi. Not a big diesel but i’m only 18 so driving a duramax everyday might not be the best idea😂
It’s generally a bad idea, park the big diesel and drive a car gas, electric, or diesel and you will generally save money and gain an asset instead of depreciating the more expensive diesel pickup. I definitely prefer to drive both my 1 ton diesel or my 3/4 ton suburban but I typically drive my old Pontiac Bonneville because it’s just so much cheaper to operate as a daily. TDI is a solid choice for a low cost operation for you, I prefer a gas daily however as I live in MM and it’s nice having a vehicle that doesn’t need any special winter care as a daily.
Tdi’s are bad ass man. I want one
99 to 03 tdi 50 mpg...
I daily an F350 dually and its a pain but i love it and it makes me happy
@@psd28 That's all the justification a man needs.
Thanks for sharing buddy great explanation
PROFICIENT Adept Ape
Start to finish loved it I don't want it to finish tutorial 👌 video great thank you very much. Take care and have a great Weekend with all your family around you
KNOWLEDGEABLE Adept Ape
From Nick Ayivor from London England UK 🇬🇧
Thank you Nick. Glad you made it through the entire 24 minutes.
Nice video,,, very easy to beginner understand!!!
No discussion of a common rail system is complete without explaining what made it all possible . The pizeo wafer trigger for the injector pintles .
A lot of good information.
just found your channel I have to say I love it wish you would keep doing these videos but more I depth and detailed and actually trouble shooting techniques for different systems and faults
Thank you for making this video.
Thanks Josh. I have 2 C7 engines and I am putting one in my boat. I have watched all your videos on them now. Only thing I wish about the C7 is that it was a sleeved engine.
Josh great video series. I would like you do a video regarding secondary oil filters like the spinner 2 filter. Most mechanics hate them but I run them on all my trucks been proven over years a lot more miles before overhauls then most company's. The carbon that these filters take out of the oil is amazing. I want your honest opinion on these filters. I know you do not like napa filters been running for years on cat and cummins they are wix filters and with the spinners amazing mileage before overhauls. Plus I change oil every 10000 miles with the loads I pull.
Interesting topic, been asked about them before. Don't have any experience with them really.
@@AdeptApe send me your email I will send pictures of what I take out of the spinner you will be amazed
CLEANER OIL IS NEVER NEVER NEVER A BAD THING!! There's eay too many ignorant azzes in the diesel world, you can spot them easily when they say stupid things like talking down to enhanced filtration, etc ..
Taking my T2 exam in two days thanks for this series
thanks, learned more from you than any of my college profs
To add to this heul and common rail can fire the injectors multiple pulses per stroke near top dead center I've seen up to 11 pulses on one cylinder on one cycle they usually vary the length of each pulse to reduce emissions and quiet the engine down
Also many of these injectors are not driven by 12 volt DC but actually 120 to 160 volt DC for that ECM control
Same with cam driven unit injectors or at least the unit injectors on my c13. They have over 120v running them.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge Josh always interesting 🦘👍
Good job. Nice dogs
The common rail injectors can be of the piezoelectric type. Apply power and a stack of crystals shrink to allow the injector to fire. It allows extremely fast actuation which can give multiple shots of fuel per injection event. Makes for quieter operation and much cleaner emissions.
It just keeps getting worse!
I want louder engines and more smoke
Also for sum reason EVERY COMMON RAIL ENGINE has an engine life of 700,000-900,000 engine life and everything goes wrong in between.. as opposed to d-12's, n14's, series 60's, c15 which all have million mile plus sum almost 2 million idk if I had one truck it wouldn't be a common rail just because it's convenient to manufacture doesn't mean it's convenient to own
Wow, u read the internet
my honda diesel car has denso piezo injectors and yes they really do make engine run quietly.
Man this guy is good!!!
I love learning more about all these systems; thank you for making videos like this that explain them in detail.
We changed the oil on a 2013 International bus with a Maxforce DT466E. After the oil change, the engine would crank but not fire. After quite a bit of cranking, it came to life, haltingly at first, then evening out. It seems to run fine now, although in my opinion it seems to run rough when cold; could this be caused somehow by the oil since it has a HEUI system? Would overfilling the oil (by 1-2 quarts) cause problems at all?
Thanks for another great episode, as has been mentioned, common rail isn’t new or modern it’s the ecm that makes it so good today. I think the first production common rail fuel system was way back in 1916 on British Navy Vickers submarines. It was dropped because most other manufacturers were using ‘air blast’ injection even though ‘solid injection’ was being developed worldwide.
Thank you!!!
Professor APE in the house!
Here (Brasil) we use tha Bar like a pressure measure unit. I started my study's in havy duty mechanic (how is called here) thank's for all! ❤
Nice 💪🏻
I'm curious to know how much current has to flow through the solenoid in order to overcome/control the high pressure that's in the injectors.
depends on the injector manufacturer and style but usually about 20A give or take depending on the voltage given to them, piezoelectrics are around 50A with the same rules, depends on the voltage.
What is your opinion about centrifugal oil filters or oil centrifuges? I bought a used Ford L8000 for a farm truck, it has an 8.3 Cummins with an add on centrifugal oil filter. It does seem to catch carbon and keep the oil cleaner longer. The unit on my truck was made by T. F. Hudgins and is called a spinner.
Clean oil is never bad oil. Enhanced filtration is NEVER DETRIMENTAL, ever!
As said above, cleaner oil is NEVER a bad thing. Just make sure you have good flow rates (not necessarily higher oil pressure)
Could you discuss cold starts on the HEUI system and how it effects the engine vs common rail?
I have cat c6.6 acert fitted on a combine... Has 4400 hours and recently we have bought a new injectors... But rpm keep drops on load!!! Any advice....
And thank you for your videos... It's amazing videos
Doesn't look like faulty injector, could be rail relief valve, you should connect ET check faults first.
Make sure you filter to 5um or less on all CR injection motors if you want long system life. Finer filtration equals longer life!
I'm a certified Detroit Diesel tech, I work mostly on the DD13 and DD15 engines. Their fuel systems have no fuel tube in the head, they have a fuel line that goes from the fuel rail to the injector through the cam housing. DD engines also have a lot of injection Pump issues, metal in fuel caused by lack of priming the fuel system. Detroit uses fuel to lubricate the injection Pump. I also want to mention that there is another fuel system that Mack, Deutz, and Mercedes used. Basically it's 6 individual injection pumps ran off of an in block cam lobe, has a fuel line that runs to each injector. I'm not entirely sure what they call it, but it is used on the later Mack E7, Mercedes 900 and 4000 series engines. Volvo/Mack also have their own unique take on common rail. Their common rail fuel system is a mixture of common rail and Meui. They do not use a high pressure injection Pump, they use a tandem pump which us the fuel and power steering pumps. They have a fuel rail under the valve cover going to each injector. They have 3 injectors that are actuated by a cam lobe, and have 3 injectors that are not. It is the weirdest fuel system I have ever seen.
I just saw that a few months ago when doing an injector harness and sensors on the common rail. Had to look twice to make sure I wasn’t seeing things. I have always heard the old E7 individual injection pumps called EUP will still work on those old E7 all day before one of the emission engines
I think it’s unit pumps you’re talking about. Deutz used it too.
Detroit used unit injection on the old 2 strokes- that's what you are describing on Mack etc reads like to me. For the uninitiated, a common fuel supply line feeds all injectors, and throttle done by a rack that operates them all. Gotta size those things correctly or you get too much or not enough fuel. Wet stacking will happen if you can't keep it in the operating range. I'm a fan as they're simple and reliable and sound awesome. That's the one thing common rails just don't have- the sound. I'll miss it when it's gone some day entirely.
Can't you put a high pressure oil filter between the heui pump and head to protect the injectors and fuel rail
Would have liked moor detail on exactly what is going on inside the injector.
HPCR injectors have the return line because they need it to fire the injectors. Losing heat is just an added benefit.
How does the return line fire the injectors?
@@thetowndrunk988 short answer is the fuel pressure is what opens and closes the injector. The injector has two chambers and you create lower pressure in the top chamber by allowing some bleed in to the return line, the higher pressure in the bottom chamber opens the injector.
Why are most ECM's, seem to be always, mounted on the engine block? To me it only makes sense to keep the ECM from heat and vibration as much as possible. Heat and vibration are known computer killers.
Because with all of these big diesel engines the engine is sold by the engine manufacturer as a ready to go "drop in package" so the engine computer has to be mounted to the engine somewhere so that the company purchasing it and installing it in their truck (or whatever) doesn't have to worry about where to mount a computer.
To be honest these computers are extremely robust and usually cooled with fuel and it's very rare to have one fail!
Is this fuel pump in the tank or is there a sending unit that sends low pressure to the pump? Thanks for the videos making a transition from automotive to diesel
How was injection timing controller by Meui? Was it static timing depending on the relationship of camshaft lobe to injector?
In engines using electronic unit injectors or electronic unit pumps, the timing of the camshaft is fixed, the ECM just tells the pumps or injectors when to fire.
There are many mechanically-injected marine Diesel engines still being made nowadays (the MAN 32/40 and Wartsila 32 come to mind) with variable injection timing. From what I can tell, these engines use a VVT actuator on the fuel camshaft to vary the timing.
Cam and crank sensors thru ecm
MEUI uses an "Advanced" timing lobe that starts actuation movement but the injector doesn't actually build pressure and fire until the ECM signals a [closure] of the internal fuel bypass passage in the injector that results in pressure rise and pushes through the nozzle for the injection event.. it's also stopped the minute the signal is removed and the injectors return to their default [bypass] mode.
Odd question here, could something like an alfa laval fuel polisher increase the lifespan of those 30,000 psi injectors?
Yes. Fuel filtration level is a direct correlation to CR fuel system life. Must be sub 5um particle filtration, the finer the better. We run 2um Davco filters on all our modern CR diesels and never have fuel injection system problems, just a little more frequent filter changes that are ridiculously easy for this benefit.
@@100pyatt good policy. Also, a FASS fuel system can be a huge benefit. Not only great filtration, but eliminating air bubbles really helps common rail longevity.
Cummins was proud of the most complicated fuel system ever invented, they forgot to mention most expensive ever designed, trying to compensate for the egr and cooler.
What about the MaxxForce egr
Nothing to do with the EGR Cooler, it's about NoX and PM emissions. Cleaner PM emissions is longer engine life and better economy. NoX on the other hand is reduced by better pressure control through multiple precise injection events which cause reduced pressure rattle noise and increase internal components and bearing Life.
@@5.43v agreed David, MaxxForce was bar none the worst diesel truck engine ever made, by a significant margin
@@100pyatt egr and cooler is an attempt to reduce nox by lowering combustion temperatures but does reduce nox nearly enough and at the same time pushes particulates through the roof thereby requiring more regenerations. Follow the money. In 2014 the soot trap and catalyst complete assembly for a Pete 320 with a Cummins 8.9 cost 32,000$
Take care of the soot in the engine and then use more purified cow pee. Company I worked for had a Pete with a pre-cup Cat that when smoke tested was right at 1% opacity, 3% is allowable.
Follow the money 💰
Another good thing about the HEUI fuel systems is if you lose all your engine oil then all that will happen is the engine will stop running and that is a good thing
Quick question is the 12 valve 2nd gen ram Cummins run off of that common rail injections?
Thank You Good Tech INFO. 7.3.. 1999 F350 From New = Keep oil Clean LOL ALL Banks Get UP & GO & Gear Vendor Over Drive, Air Ride Too
I stopped this at 21:22 to ask..... Re: The Head Return Fuel Rail. By having the fuel go through the head as you state to help cool the injector, It would also be very beneficial to warm/heat up the fuel "in very cold climates" for optimum flow and efficient combustion. Was that one or a main reason for this design?
so what is heating the coils mean? don't you have to turn on the ignition before you turn it over?
Does the HEUI system have anything to do with the engine not shutting off? 5amp ignition fuse blows every time they key is turned off. Engine stays running. 2007 international DT466
I love the heui systems much cheaper to fix. CR wear out fast as is the case with high psi.
CR doesn't wear out fast unless it's not properly maintained and fuel filtration level is critical. Nothing bigger than 5um absolute fuel filtration or it's like pressure blasting abrasive media through the Injection System
The engines themselves don’t necessarily wear out faster. Like everything else, it all depends on maintenance. There are a lot of old school drivers that do oil changes every 10-15,000 miles, but NEVER get the emissions system intervals done (or don’t do a proper delete, not that anyone should ever do such a thing), and simply wait till the dash looks like a Christmas tree to get it serviced. Then they wonder why the engine is gone at 500k
Heui will wear out fast with improper oil changes
Cr will wear out fast with poor fuel quality
They are pretty much the same system except different hydraulic fluid for each.
What system does a 3176 from the early 90's run? I'm guessing MEUI?
I thought that generation motor was regular inline pump and Injector ?
Correct MEUI, first was 2YG, second 7LG (three serial number ranges) last 3176B 9CK.
As this engine was a total disaster Cat dropped the number and went with the C10, C12, C15 etc, to get away from 3176.
I have isuzu trooper (4jx1 engine) with HEUI system , not much reliable system , expensive to repair , few mechanics know to work on it.
I bet you drove your school teachers nuts asking questions they couldn’t answer Lol !
Ok, what cats use common rail fuel system ?
The word simplicity is no longer permitted to be used, in the Diesel industry. Now tell the diesel dummies they have to be smarter, to work on newer engines. Parts changers.
They are simple if you understand all the systems and how they work!
An old mechanically injected diesel would seem ridiculously complicated to somebody that's used to dealing with a horse and buggy, I work on modern diesels for a living and I can assure you once you understand how they work they're extremely simple!!
@@lustfulvengance agreed , some people aren't intelligent enough to understand the operation theory of modern engines
@@lustfulvengance I went to the parts room 15 years ago. The younger generation is the wrench turners now. I still observe the doings. Every sensor gets renewed now. Turbos get changed out. All new harness. No more repairing them. New DPF and DOC now. Cleaning doesn't last. It might be easier, but it cost way more. I forgot about the DEF problems.
11:20 notice the white filter!!!!!!
The mechanical and hydraulic systems appeal so much to the mechanical-minded mechs. The piezo-electrics are a bit more sophisticated to the average mech. Nonetheless, mechs are not engineers and engineers create things that work and things we have to work on. Rest assured that physics never changes...no magical pixie dust is available...just thinkers and do-ers.
Left out the biggest con on heui and probably why it's not used today, improper oil care leading to problems with the heui system.
Same Volvo engines use this MEUI…
I have one experience with comon rail that night help someone down the road. I had,a vemeer 24/40 drill which would not start without a little shot of ether. It had a john deer engine so I contacted the dealer to diagnose the problem. The first call took several hours $1,400, to no avail the second visti all day the tech mixed some wires up and said I needed a rebuild on the engine . $1400, . I buy a new engine from John deer and install it myself. Sane problem. I call the tech out again this time it is the first tech and he finds the messed up wires the 2nd guy did. He works several hours and is about to leave and I say no I don't have access to the computer you have to figure this out. Hecwork another hour and says I think I've got it. It was the high pressure fuel rail releif valve gone bad. $275. I spent $20,000 and all the labor to replace the engine over a $275 releif valve.
7.3 baby 25 years and run perfectly
I love ditroy cat c12 is not good
What's ditroy
Hahaha
Brother pump generates 1200 psi pressure to injector ok correct your knowledge about fuel pump and injectors and about pump pressures it depends on the brand of fuel pump
i love HEUI fuel systems, basically idiot proof, oil gets way to thin, wont build any pressure won't start, have a bad leak low on engine oil, wont start. stops you from turning a rebuildable core or a savable engine into a hunk of cast iron that only the chinese could use for something. all these other Fuel systems out there, are in my opinion outclassed by HEUI, in terms of being idiot proof, and all these other systems generally are way over complicated. take a 6.0 powerstroke, you only need cam and crank sensor and the IPR valve working and no high pressure oil leaks and itll run given injectors and fuel supply is fine. take any newer common rail system generally you got multi check valves, sensors, a very sensitive pump thats going through Thousands of gallons of New fluid every week and said Fluid is fuel, and provides almost no lubricity, vs HEUI pumps even the bad ones, have a better chance at lasting alot longer than even the best common rail injection pumps, a HEUI pump doesn't care about what fuel is in it. as no fuel goes through it. its a sealed system as long as you got good oil, preferabbly fresh oil in it, it will outlive most anything.
HEUI systems suck and are troublesome. MEUI systems are great and have longevity. Common rail systems are cheaper to manufacture but doesn't last long. Komatsu wants new injectors every 1000 hours. High maintenance.
1000 hours, that is ridiculous.
That Komatsu story is not true. We own a few pieces of new komatsu common rail machinery and there isn’t any documentation that mentions an injector replacement interval. I know people that have tens of thousands of hours in komatsu machinery and I can promise you they haven’t had injectors changed on that schedule.
Forgot a zero, it's 10,000 hrs on Konatsu CR engines is the recommended refresh
@@AdeptApe 10k not 1k
We have 350,000 miles on a 7.3 PSD that's lived a rough life in a battered old Ford. Fantastic engine and fuel system, in that application at least. I'm personally an old school inline pump or unit injection fan though. May not make big power but it's got character and lasts forever.
Give you A+ for definition, your art work needs schooling. Not realism more into abstract to surrealism.
Still better than Jackson Pollock.
@@AdeptApe If you say so.
Brauch keine autos amk
I don’t get why your doing fuelsystems 101 when your a mechanic not a diesel man.
What??
WTF?
I really need some way to get in touch with you! An email or something!
Check the information tab below every video. Adeptape@yahoo.com
Common rail system in what cat motor. What is the difference between 3406 A from 3406 B and 3406 C🎃ty
Love your knowledge mate, I work in the mines in Australia and also at a cat dealership, you would be a great in-house trainer( I’m sure your probably already training other techs), your company is lucky to have you, keep up the great work 🔧⚙️🧰