Owen Jones meets Jonathan Pie | 'Identity politics are used to shut down debate'
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- Опубліковано 3 тра 2018
- Jonathan Pie has become an online cult phenomenon with his political rants. Despite being a Jeremy Corbyn supporting lefty, Tom Walker, the man behind Pie, has made many on the left uncomfortable by offering up some challenging perspectives, particularly on freedom of speech and identity politics. I went to meet the man behind the fictional news presenter to discuss his own political views.
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#JonathanPie #OwenJones #JeremyCorbyn #Corbyn
I'm a bit suprised Owen disagreed with so much of what he was saying. Most of what Pie says seems like common sense.
Because owen is an authoritarian who wants the government to have more power and control over private life, but also doesnt trust them to do anything as they are systemically racist, sexist etc. It is effectively a argument between the liberal(i.e. pro liberty, individualist) left, pie, and the illiberal(group think, collectivist, censorious) left, jones
Basically Owen hasn't really thought about it properly with a lot of introspection, he is the modern version of a Puritan christian demanding people to put what he thinks of as virtuous over their freedoms.
Well said, James.
Owen is an authoritarian neo-communist. Of course he opposes genuine free speech.
So the guy is basically a bit of a walking oxymoron really
You answered it yourself.
Pie wants people to have adult debate about things. Jones wants people to just agree with him. There's your difference.
@@robtalbot3852 don't you see the irony in what you have said about Jones? You have just done exactly what you accused him and the left of. Shut down his argument mot by addressing the issues but by labelling him as something.
@@backawayfromthedonkey He subjectively described Jones' actions, as demonstrated in this video. There was no labeling involved. Pie's argument was "people need to be able to debate things they disagree about", Jones' response was "yeah, but..." End of story.
Everyone wants people to agree with them. It's called convincing someone.
@@backawayfromthedonkey I assume he realises that and is joking
Herr Absurd ... yes, and jones's way is actually becoming the norm.
“Goebbels was in favor of free speech for views he liked. So was Stalin. If you’re really in favor of free speech, then you’re in favor of freedom of speech for precisely the views you despise. Otherwise, you’re not in favor of free speech.”
Noam Chomsky
Whatever you think of Noam Chomsky, any reasonable person would agree that he's on a completely different intellectual level to Owen Jones.
Owen Jones didn't listen to a thing he said.
Mate, he spent the entire interview listening and asking polite questions.
Against the left????? Pie is a make up character who rails against all sides. Owen presents himself as the type of one sided journalism that Pie is the antithesis to.
Brilliantly said
not really as the Pie character is esentially rallying against Tories, Brexit Party, and UKIP
Johnathan Pie, for a being a fake journalist, is hell of a lot more of a 'real' journalist than Owen Jones is.
owen joes is .. as clearly as he rubbes it under the viewers noses .. an activist not a journalist ..
if you argue for a specific political/societal agenda over and over .. and stick to your arguments EVEN after dozens of discussions with great arguments why it's BS what you push there .. you're either brainwashed or dumb or insincere or ACT .. or a combination of those
to bring up the pay gap argument IN THIS YEAR in THAT way .. is CLEARLY nothing but agenda pushing
Is it claimed anywhere that Owen Jones is a journalist??
I've never seen any news articles by him. He only does political activist articles.
Mark Kelly He writes for the Guardian doesn't he?
@@kingstumble
He writes in the Guardian but I haven't seen any actual journalism by him.
Mostly because he's not interested in being in politics! (He just wants to be an actor)
Owen's opinion is so black and white and entrenched, whereas Walkers is much more nuanced and he is willing to shift his opinion depending on the context. I think this is the issue with people like Owen Jones, there is a right way and a wrong way, his is the right way and if you don't agree then you are "place your chosen noun here"-ist
I think you have some valid points but Owen genuinely stumps Jonathan in the vid. So clearly his opinion requires specific challenge rather than just a broad dismissal.
100 💯 agree
What the modern left should be: Jonathan Pie
What the modern left actually is like: Owen Jones
Eh most of the modern left is like pie tho lol
@@thraitor7819 Most left-wing people probably, but left-wing media personalities far less so. Would love it to be true tho.
@@thraitor7819 I wish, man, I wish...
@@nomnom2969 Do you really think common sense, thoughtful Left-wing personalities stand a chance of getting decent Media time. They might make too much sense better to only push forward the ones the media can discredit
@@jameshughes5722 True, they're also not controversial enough to garner engagement in media platforms and channels. We'll only get back reasonable discourse in media, if people start not reacting with their primary impulses to the content they watch, and if soc-media platforms start using different algorithms that don't promote outrage-provoking content.
Pie: I'm not saying injustice isn't real, i'm questioning the usefulness of conflating identity with ideas. Owen: but injustice exists.
sallyfieldrequired 😂😂😂😂😂😂 just goes on and on and poor @willets there : none said nowt bad at any point - I demand a timestamp!!!! Well done Pie for being so patient... again hilarious to watch... top man.
9:35 over 2 minutes. Paraphrased, apart from Owens reply.
Also, this: Owen: "You seem to both be a free speech absolutist, but also claim that there are clear limits" Pie: "well yes, but no.. [proceeds to complain about australian referendum]"
@@shent1059 timestamp? What is the reasonable or charitable interpritation? Starting point is total freedom of speech within the domain of free speech, and that is the main limiting principle when establishing exceptions, i.e speech crosses over in to action.
@@voltairespuppet 6:47 onwards.
And I can't provide an interpretation of what Pie says on the topic, be cause he does not speak on the topic, he goes on to claim that he'd rather haev a robust discussion on these matters - wchich is fair, but also, not really an answer to the question.
As a gay man let me post this and posit thus simply:
Acceptance: the action or process of being received as adequate or suitable, typically to be admitted into a group.
Tolerance: the ability or willingness to tolerate something, in particular the existence of opinions or behavior that one does not necessarily agree with.
I spent the better part of my life fighting for tolerance only for the meaning to be turned into acceptance. I am Gay. I don't care if you believe its a sin or not, I don't want to be harassed, but compelling acceptance of who I am to anyone, regardless of my race/sexuality/ my IDENTITY... is not seeking equality... it's seeking to control people. I DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO MAKE ANYONE ACCEPT ME. I do have the right to ask... no demand at least their tolerance. Anything more is an offense to free speech and freedom of thought and feeling. And is in the territory of totalitarianism.
Well said.
Or at least authoritarianism...
agreed.
CryingBuddha
Now that's a virtue that has _real_ meaning. Impressive comment from you, sir.
Absolutely brilliant! Why hasn't Owen Jones replied to this articulate comment well done sir.
Owen Jones proves one point - he is not smart enough to understand Pie.
I came out of that interview thinking a great deal more of Jonathan Pie, but rather less of Owen Jones. Interesting.
I have yet to 'come out' of an interview thinking more of OJ.
It was unfortunate that Pie couldn’t defend the example of a racist more. He nails it once by saying “making it underground is when it gets dangerous” or something to that effect. The guy turns it on it’s head somehow and Pie walks it back and says it was a bad example.
But no, shaming a person for something you disagree with will get a different reaction than if you treat them with respect and you show them the illogic. Even if you fail, there’s more good in that attempt than in vitriol.
Why exactly?
Doubting Rich 😂😂😂😂
@Suffer No Fools I know right
I agree with a lot of what you say Owen but Pie’s sensible approach to left wing politics makes you look like the manifestation of an outrage culture.
That being said, "We've got a right and a left now, great innit?" is a poor argument. The fact that Labour have gone so unpalatably left is leaving the Tories totally unchallenged, and they feel emboldened to go off on their own right wing wankfest because there is no chance they'll get kicked out while Labour are so unelectable.
When Owen Jones nods sagely to your points you should probably consider that you've just appealed to a far left mentalist.
ScottWasTaken I feel like it’s the complete opposite. Owen has a sensible approach to structural discrimination and prejudice, while Tom’s is really basic and surface level.
Matt Juliff if you think that, then you don't understand why the right has recently ascended. Why internet counter culture which was on the left in the Bush years, in the last four years, became defined in opposition to the excesses of the left (SJWism)
I agree 'the left' has to taken responsibility for its inability to counter the rise of the right/alt-right but its not because the people were so against racism or misogyny that it somehow drove people into the arms of fascists. It's because of the failure of the left (read:centrist governments of the 90s and early 2000s) to address the structural social ills of our societies that we now have alt-right beliefs in the mainstream. Colourblindness and post-gender equality attitudes have facilitated and tolerated the far right whilst attacking anyone who calls out discrimination on any kind of structural level because it makes them feel uncomfortable and question themselves. Liberal and conservative people want to believe they play no part in social discrimination when this is simply not true. Jonathan Pie presents himself as sensible and common sense when really he is just ineffective and facilitating the status quo.
blastpeed this is a piss poor justification for someone's entire politics. "I don't like 'SJWs' so I voted UKIP or Tory".
I completely agree with Pie on this; if you force an opinion underground, that becomes edgy, cool, the counter culture. If you keep these opinions on the surface and dismantle them with facts, that's how minds are changed. Though, free speech does not exist. The old 'fire in a theatre' cliché is the perfect example of this.
Mouthpiece I disagree
Your number one b*tch
Why?
savannah because when they become main stream they are more likely to spread and become the dominant ideology. No one is strong enough to dismantle something by talking about it when it's already taken hold to the extent that the majority of people are mentally invested in it. Cognitive dissonance will mean that so much damage will have been done before it can be brought to an end. I completely disagree with Jonathan on this. I think unwittingly he is feeding the alt right fire.
savannah I do like Jonathan pie btw, I just think he's got this wrong, even though it's with the best of intentions.
Blutkreuz The left can't debunk that alt right because the alt right is immune to factual argument. We know that white people aren't special, we know that there are multiple sexualities and that gender is a social construct. But if reality can be dismissed with conspiracy theories then there is no way to break that armour. These are the kind of people who think that those ancestry tests are a conspiracy because their pure white genes turn out to be full of other genes from East African to Jewish. These are people who when one of their number murdered someone with their car instead of deploring the act made up conspiracy theories that she was a paid actor and that she actually died of a heart attack in a different location and that they were being framed. That's two mutually exclusive stories that spread like wildfire after the incident and were both used to deflect from the fact that one of there own murdered someone in cold blood.
Owen seemed quite closed in this interview. Pie only spoke the truth as i understand it. Surely common sense must triumph over the 'I'm oppressed stance'?
It will. Always. Truth and common sense will always trump the "I'm a victim" card.
Sadly I think there is an "oppression industry" -
Common sense doesn't earn a dime.
thats denying that the im oppressed stance is actually a real thing too
i think he was just playing devil’s advocate
It depends on his own 'identity', far too many people conflate their sexuality/sex makeup and hold it as an intrinsic part of who they are, rather than only counting with sexual partners. Some other people do the same thing with the job, they 'are' the corporate executive who makes all the big decisions,. And for these people who anthropomorphise certain of their attributes to the level of identity, then they are seriously hurt when others do not take that and the associated beliefs as gospel. Think about the reaction of the big executive I mentioned, the one whose job is a major part of their identity, if you belittle what management do, or even point out the failures of his management, then the first step will be denial, then next will be the shutout, the same as the hard left.
Think about an extreme left person, if someone disagrees, typically the first step is a 'but it's obvious', then it is a shutout. only occasionally do we see any questioning by the offended party to ask why it isn't obvious.
Owen says at the end "Leave comments and let me know what you think".
Well, I think you came across as patronising, condescending and the look on your face points to feelings of intellectual superiority. Which seems to be the whole point of Johnathan Pie in the first place.
David Coxon nice..
Maybe, your personal viewpoint - but Owen was giving some good examples of the reality of existence of so many people in the UK. Pie didn't have the argument all his own way.
It is fascinating to look at the two faces, isn't it. TW is completely unselfconscious and OJ is so clearly uncomfortable with him and doesn't know what to do with his face.
@@maxmarnau7019 In defense of both, OJ spends his career doing interviews like this, writing articles appearing in media. Whereas TW is usually acting, from script it has more or less all been worked out before. So they clearly have different temperaments, especially with how they feel being "themselves" so to speak (instead of playing a character), in front of a camera.
Spot on there ;)
Owen still doesn’t get it, identity politics pushes people away from the left
Here here, most of us on the left are now considered right... that means the pendulum is gonna swing back.
Let's hope Owens, Diane Abbot, Alistair, Blair, Major, Miliband, Corbyn, Khan, Gordon Brown!?!?!? God there's tons of them in that party... and they're just the names the millennials know of. We could go back a little further to see some dark evils of history too... I was going to say Owens does a wonderful job of keeping people put off Labour with his childish little foot stamps, but then I thought, well he's not alone, there's... and... oh and I could have listed 50% of the party in fact.
Identity politics encourages victimhood.
I find it interesting that "identity politics" is considered a left wing thing, when "identity politics" has been the right and far-right's thing for 30 years. What do you think the war on Christmas, the pro-life movement, and the anti-immigration movement is? That's identity politics. The right has been playing the victim my entire life.
@@JonathanBreese just forget about the left right wing nonsense brother. I've been right wing all my life, purely based on others telling me I am because of what I value. They're all good positive things, but theres never been any government who could ever carry what I believe is important out anyway. We should all forget about left/right from this day forwards. (And Owen Jones ^^) sadly we will always he stuck with either labour or Tories forever.
Oh, come on, Owen. You never argued his actual point. He very explicitly never said that there wasn't racism, homophobia or sexism. He said that it wasn't enough to call someone a racist or sexist to shut down the debate without actually explaining how the opposing argument was wrong. He's usually extremely delighted if a valid point against right wing or conservative agendas is made. At the end of this interview he kinda could just point at you and say "I rest my case".
"I'd really like to hear your thoughts". Are you sure, Owen?
Greg Brooks what are you talking about? He was listening, you’re confusing a critical discussion about important issues as a dismissive argument
This entire interview is just:
Pie: The left are really trigger happy with buzz words like racist and misogynist
Jones: But racists and misogynists exist
Pie: Yeah but not everybody is a racist and misogynist
Jones: Yeah but they exist
I had a lesbian colleague in an old job - who was pretty fucking good at her job, mind you - and we’d have similar debates all the time. Like... and yeah, so? There’s serial killers too, but you don’t label people as one if they swat a fly.
Lol
@Jack Django Happy to help
Basically, Jones wants to live in a perfect world where no oppression or offense ever exists. The difficult but mature reality to confront is that those things will always exist in one form or another.
Jones needs to understand that labeling everyone with those buzz words actually helps those people becasue it devalues how serious those words are , if everyone is a racist or misogynist then no one really is
If Owen thinks because you're a straight white male you haven't experienced prejudice then he, a middle class man hasn't a clue about poverty and thus should shut up.
100%
Chris He came from a working class northern background. Please refrain from putting pseudo facts online. Cheers!
Jalil Abdul Malik El Shabazz his father was a union rep (rarely low working class) and his mother was a university lecturer...... Those people work, but they're Not working class. How many low working class go to Oxford?
I stand by what I wrote. He knows nothing about true poverty.
Jalil Abdul Malik El Shabazz oh, and if you don't like pseudo facts then why do you like Owen Jones? Everything he writes is 'opinion' and 'feelings' over actual facts.
I'm guessing you're another Trotsky.
"and thus should shut up"
Is this not the same 'shutting down debate' they talk about in the video
Man behind Pie: 'Let's not shut down conversations, so that we can debate sinister viewpoints openly, rather than backing people into a defensive corner.'
Owen Jones: 'Yeah but racism is bad tho.'
JONES YOU *OCK MUNCHING MAGGOT ,YOU GOT THE BRAINS OF A WOOD LOUSE . CRAWL UNDER WHAT EVER WOOD PILE YOU CRAWLED FROM .
😂👌
Owen thinking he represents the common man is really sad
LiftedBuddha ooh! I don't know, he is a twat!
I think Pie is a better image if that
'Well, it depends on how you define common'
Corbyn and Jess Phillips suffer from the same delusion.
He boils my piss
Funny how the interviewer never had an actual comeback argument for any of "Pie's" points.
Just a word salad.
When he addressed the gender pay gap, the crickets chirping was deafening.
11:14 "Women are a minority in every sphere of public life."
Women are the majority in teaching and healthcare to name a couple examples. Both have a significant role in the growth and healing of our society.
To ignore this shows how ideologically myopic you are.
Women also are the highest earners in a number of fields where they're the minority. What people using the wage gap argument don't understand is that median earnings (the data set used to pad the gap) is not the same as average pay.
There's even a rumour that the Queen and the Prime Minister are women. AND the Scottish First Minister. But of course those spheres don't count. But Owen IS right about linesmen and foresters. Far too few women. They should pick some women off the street and force them to work in forestry and the electrical reticulation fields.
More pandering to a group for votes or virtue points from a lefie ! Women account for 80% of ALL purchases including cars, houses and holidays. Women outspend men almost five to one, why the fuck is Jones saying Women are a minority everywhere. Not at the tills Owen !
there isnt a completely even playing field, were coming out of an era where institutional sexism has existed for 1000+ years and of course theres still some of that in the systems. Its way overblown though. Even throw away comments like women are objectified... ok, so henry cavil playing superman, how many men look like that? How often is huge jackman getting his shirt off? how mny adverts on tv have a beefy guy with showing a ton of skin putting on aftershave or shampoo etc? We just ignore that tho because there isnt an agenda fixated on it. PEOPLE are objectified, go to an art museum and look at some greek statues to realise that has included men for literally 1000s of years. Is it even a bad thing?
the queen, prime minster, scots first, yep. Also the leaders of sinn fien and the dup, the 2 big parties in northern ireland, both women. So basically every leading role in the currently elected political power structure of the uk. The reality is that men and women are different on a biological level, physically and mentally, hormones, sex drives. Its not a case of one being better than the other, but simple gcse biology tells us they are different and given completely equal opportunities there will be employment differences as a result. Men are more competitive, that will result in men probably earning more money on average, thats as inevitable as saying men on average will be taller.
We're arguing about this, while there are actual cartoon villains in charge of our country. Can we do this later, please?
It’s sad that what Tom Walker is saying here, which is really quite banal, is treated as controversial
W. Gaby
It's because "critical thinking", which was originally used to encourage leftist analysis of texts, has become dominated by angry lesbian academics keen to find evidence of the patriarchy etc.
+anonUK Did you watch the video? it's because arguing against your opponent and their qualifications has become more important in mainstream media that listening to their argument and debating that. so you can dismiss people's opinions by calling them names like "angry lesbian academics"
"I'm not going to write for stupid people" 😂 I feel that statement was lost on Owen completely!
Yep, he called him out, and Owen didn’t even notice. 🤣
Personally it felt very different to that - they had an adult conversation, and I'm sure Jonathan Pie brought some newer perspectives to Owen as well, maybe some food for thought. I've never seen anything by Jonathan Pie that would suggest an inherent right wing bias, but he DOES challenge the norms that many on the left hold, and that's healthy, to bring the debate and use real issues and experiences, rather than just blanket remarks to shut down anyone who disagrees. I have great respect for both of them, and I'd really love to see a full discussion between these two, as I'm positive they have far, FAR more in common than at odds with each other. And the fact that Pie acknowledges his own limitations of experience is a good advert for rounded thought, leading to a conclusion.
The art of tact.
@@jonnysolar5068 - Yeah, Pie definitely comes from the left, which is why he's usually trying so hard to fix/improve it - much like Bill Maher.
Owen Jones demonstrating why Tom Walker's Pie rants resonate with people.
I was amazed Owen Jones described him as someone who "takes on the left". The vast majority of Pie's videos are left-leaning and the only issues he has with the left is cancel culture and words like "mansplaining".
@@stevezpj Owen Jones is clearly terrified of the left. He's worried he'll say the wrong thing and be cancelled. Look at his interviews with Alistair Campbell for proof.
@@SuckMyCurry well that's kind of cowardly then, isn't it?
Exactly!
Owen Jones is scarily authoritarian. In this interview Tom Walker is the genuine liberal. How Owen Jones who is a journalist holds his views on free speech is astounding.
mearsa30 Agreed mate!
It’s communistic
mearsa30 well he would be, however a socialist isn't ever a liberal
And once again, all you idiots can't understand what the role of an interviewer is. Morons.
Stan be any of a twatmore?
This was kind of disappointing, i really thought Owen would be on the same page with these issues by now. Has he not seen whats happening on uni campuses here and in the US. I used to think "political correctness gone mad" was just a right wing exaggeration but it really has become dangerous!
Bollocks. Literally bollocks. There is no "campus gone willd with marxists". You're living in a fantasy world if you believe this.
jack ward Owen Jones doesn't have to be on the same page on these issues. He is generally more concerned with other issues (eg renationalisation and welfare). Many of us don't live in the US, so we cannot all get outraged by US uni campuses...is this a classic case of exaggerated storm in a teacup?
Besides I didn't find it disappointing as they had a healthy debate with interesting arguments. Wanting Owen to be on your same position, you risk becoming like sjw who want everyone to have their same position on everything
Is it every campus or just a few?
Eric Cartman You left off man-aging, man-ipulating and man-afacturing consent. Massive, massive, microaggressions.
I don't know if I should thumbs up Jonathan Pie or thumbs down Owen Jones?
It's the Guardian. Thumbs down for trying to shoot Tom and whoever agreed with him here down.
Pie was trying to have a conversation. Jones wanted an argument.
You must have been watching a different video from the one I watched.
@@laurieharper1526 You must have a different point of view than I do.
Pie is making some pretty fair and balanced points but Owen doesn't seem to address them. Instead he goes for the classic 'racist, misogynistic, oppressed' lines while throwing in a few digs about the limits of freedom of speech (who decides the limits - Jones himself? While he's just shown himself unable to respond to basic arguments).
FirstLadyRV aww come on... are you saying “But is it really?” isnt a valid counter argument? 😂
FirstLadyRV People like Owen Jones have tons of knowledge but little wisdom, because wisdom requires critical thinking skills which they seem unable to employ. I think they are simply not taught properly. I have seen many of this sort...especially in the new crop (under 30s).
This is meant to be focused on what JP has to say, when Jones throws in some examples, Pie doesn't know what to say....this video isn't supposed to be about what Jones thinks, is it?
Never heard of this Owen dude but my first impression is that he doesn't understand adult concepts. He tried to chip in with arguments but kept falling short. This is genuinely like watching a 15 year old try to match intellects with a scholar, but doesn't understand he himself isn't a scholar.
Got him in one ,more or less.
Owen Jones cones across as a privileged kid that has had too much his own way and thinks that should carry on in his proffessional life...Common sense is hard to come by...
This is the left my friend. Teen-agers
Owen Jones couldn't pass a first-year critical thinking course at uni. "Jonathan" argues that identitarians shut down debate by unfair means, to which Owen replies, "well, there sure is a lot of sexism and homophobia out there!" Even if he's right (and by historical standards, he's not), this has nothing to do with JP's free speech position. Very illogical.
I feel like this perspective ignores all the vaild points Owen made, his questions that stumped Pie or forced him to think for a while before answering. He's not here to argue his views, but to talk with Pie, and that he does rather well
I love that this is Jones' own channel and 90% of the comments are negative towards him 😂
freedom of speech and all that. Most of the comments on here are not logical at all... Jones doesnt listen .. wtf....Pie has common sense and "won" yet amazingly or not really as BOTH are LEFT wing agree far more than you realise
"This is were we disagree on free speech"
Because you don't believe it free speech.
they share the view basically IF you had listened to what was said
@@skyblazeeterno Wrong... Pie stands with this quote by Noam Chomsky, 'You are either for free speech or against it, there is no middle ground.'
Owen doesn't...
I love how Owen squirmed when Pie started talking about disingenuous headlines. Probably has something to do with him being responsible for many of them.
You can't debate anything with Owen using common sense, but bloody good effort Jonathan.
They had a perfectly healthy discussion. As an interviewer he was asking questions that got Pie to talk about his experience and ideas in regards to politics and comedy.
@@JonathanBreese Suppose this comment section wanted him to talk with J. P about his favorite cartoon without even implying an opposite position on the topic.
I like how Jones changes it from 'White male privilege' to 'straight white male privilege'..can't imagine why.
Probably because homosexual white men, bugger that, homosexual men in general, are hugely disadvantaged in the social sphere and are in general not as privileged as straight white men.
Eason Cheng yeah it’s not like many gay men are millionaires and CEO’s. I know it’s not fair for straight men.
@@sarah07290 You mean like at the Guardian.(etc)
@@sarah07290 Clearly it is but there in lies the problem with identity politics. He said that to show that he has been victimized or been discriminated against to some degree more then Johnathan. Well how far will you go down the rabbit hole. An gay black male has been discriminated against more then him. And a gay black female more than that. Yes it is important to acknowledge that most people do not know what life is like for these people but also the fact that one doesn't mean that there thoughts should automatically be abandoned. As an example.. i am not transgender but i still have a logical argument i can make about transgender (male to female) athletes participating in women sports being unfair. This does not make me a bigot, i am willing to listen to anyone point of view on this matter. However often the only response that i receive is that "I don't know whats its like"
@@sarah07290 nonsense
Owen Jones makes me laugh. Not in the right way. Jonathan Pie makes me laugh. In the right way.
His name is John walker
@@normagriffiths9570 Well... Tom, right?
We laugh with Pie.
We laugh at Owens.
Dunno about anyone else but Pie's got his finger on my pulse better than Owen. I don't feel oppressed as a woman in any way, and the Godwin response is sadly way too frequent with lefties. I mean green lefties rather than red lefties.
AuntieWelly Sadly large swathes of the left seem to have fallen off a cliff.
Jim They took a sharp turn in the 1970s and have been marching straight toward it since. Many (on the left) have been ready to kick them over the edge
I found it funny that he used identity politics as OK 'you are a straight white male so don't know' and yet then went on to say how women were feeling. I'm not a women, but I'm also not every single man so I'm not going to blanket speak for anyone
Owen Jones in favour of free speech as long as it is his speech.
The cost of free speech is the risk of being offended.
@@thewomble1509 Sticks and stones
@@thewomble1509 bigoted language isnt just 'offensive' - I think it might be hard to understand if you're not a minority. Gay people, trans people, non white people, are assaulted or murdered by bigots for bigoted reasons so when we hear bigoted language like this it is genuinely scary. Is it fair for bigots to feel safer being bigoted freely than minorities who feel unsafe and threatened in their own community?
@@Hankyman583 First of all, it is not entirely true that, for example, white people are never assaulted for bigoted reasons.
Second of all, the point of free speech is not to make bigots feel safe. The point is that it is not the place of the state to decide which opinions are and are not legally acceptable, because this is a terrible precedent which is antithetical to a liberal democracy. There is no reason why free speech should make people feel less safe, because no-one is advocating the legalisation of murder/assault by bigots.
My favourite line by Owen “if you read reports by”.... congrats Owen you are now implying that your opponent isn’t as well educated as you, so therefore his opinion isn’t as well formed as yours... as a lefty myself it’s clear why so many people have a problem with Owen who has this annoying ability (like so many) to come off as self righteous. He was trying to point score here... and that doesn’t help either side of any debate
Owen Jones is everything wrong with the left. And that’s coming from a liberal.
true, also when you state if you read reports by... and then only include reports from groups whose names flat our state they have a side to support. how about citing reports form a neutral party, that would be actual usable and informative data.
I agree Joshua. 3-4 years on since this video, it's a shame that Owen remains the same & so isn't learning 'for the better' or is it that his self righteousness is so embedded in him from a certain upbringing/childhood?
Basically he's unable to see the wood for the trees.
@@gimzadi What? Don't you trust a buzzfeed opinion article piece by a 1st year university with woman with dyed hair, list of self diagnosed Mental health illnesses and werid trust issues and irrational hate towards the entire male gender discuss political issues in the world?
I agree. Owen is unbearably smug. He thinks he’s gods gift to the world
I wish Owen Jones had the intellectual fortitude to actually engage in debate with people that weren't largely aligned with his own political views. The fact he seems to think Jonathan Pie represents a completely different viewpoint just speaks to his intellectual fragility.
Exactly what I thought
"Political correctness gone mad" isn't a cliche Owen, it's a sad truth.
Rob W what do you want to say that you couldn't say before?
Tim Shortman Its got nothing to do with what I want to say, it's about the principle of free speech
Cliches tend to be a cliche because they are true. That's why they keep being repeated.
As to Tim... depends on who one is. Major speakers are routinely silenced, prevented from speaking or shouted down. Family folk have to worry about getting doxxed and slandered, their jobs targeted by self-righteous bigots - not as easy if you have a family to look after.
Some subjects people are afraid to speak on outside of typical doctrine:
- haplogroups
- sexual dimorphism
- biology of sex&gender
- skepticism regarding the common ww2 narrative
- ideology of islamism and whether it's compatible with western values
- failed integration systems
- difference in subpopulation reproduction and its consequences.
- need for nationalism, as opposed to anarchy/tribalism/globalism
Just as quick examples, and restricted to reasonable issues. Typically they have one common theme: there are idiots who make dumb claims (e.g. holocaust denial), but also valid criticisms of the mainstream narrative... and if you dare have the valid criticisms, you're declared to be one of the extremists for challenging it at all.
Rob W its a cliche because people say it over the smallest things. I've seen someone say "political correctness gone mad" over the fact a lecturer wanted to try out different font colours because some people have difficulties seeing.
the way he talks about it in my mind very clearly shows he doesnt understand it
Wow Owen really shows a childish simplistic mind.
how does he?
He thinks for example that Britain has a very misogynistic society. There are things that are uneven and sometimes women are favoured and sometimes men are favoured but calling the society misogynistic and quoting these statistics to prove it is a sign of being simple minded.
LOL, Roy! He's kinda cute, at most.
As Jonathan Pie himself highlights in a video. There has been no move to have state funded childcare options. There is still huge public stigma around paid childcare and women not being at home looking after children. Look at how the public perceives stay at home dads for example. Even look at all the social pressure mums are under to breastfeed. If they breastfeed then they can't go to work for 40+ hours a week obviously. And taking time out of your career to look after children will affect your lifetime earnings potential.
I don't know Owen from anywhere (I'm not British) but it appears to me he's deliberately using the classical interviewer's trick of playing the Devil's advocate. I wouldn't be able to presume his own personal opinions just from watching this video, but I think any journalist who gives a platform to a free speech advocate to raise these issues is at least doing something right. Edit: I was wrong about the devil's advocate bit. He's actually serious.
Owen Jones does not believe in free speech unless that speech agrees with him.
The right don't know what free speech is. They just think it is the right to be a cunt.
Put simply - everyone is entitled to an opinion, even if it's wrong. Can't argue with that!
I’m a white male yet I’ve been randomly stopped and searched in the street, and also had racist abuse shouted at me in the streets. We don’t all live in London hipster bubbles.
lol
I was just thinking exactly the same thing, me and all my white mates have been stopped and searched hundreds of times. That's not a race thing, it's a class thing.
@@thomasczthomash1859 it is definetley a class issue, but to ignore the higher rates amongst minority groups is just denying facts. The op here clearly isnt argueing in good faith.
Savage Bastard
Loooool hundreds of times... As a young white guy from the working class in London there is no way that’s true😒😒😒
Pie is about 90% correct here. I like Owen but he needs to understand that the left's use of words like misogyny and racism is sometimes no more justified than when the right call Corbyn (and any critic of Israel's ILLEGAL action) anti-Semitic. Eventually, real bigots will point back to when we cried wolf and brand decency as political correctness
They already have
What a sorry mess political debate has become - and the BBC have even become accomplices to the lowering of the tone.
The problem with words like misogynist and racist are they attack the individual and not their views. If you take debates from the topic and into personal attack nobody learns anything and the next thing you know its becoming physical. Don't vilify the individual, its pretty rare to meet somebody who thinks they are evil... even if someone is getting everything wrong and is a racist sexist homophobe usually its because they think they are doing the right thing (racism may be fear or ignorance of others or simply instinct of disgust inbuilt to protect from contagious disease, sexism may be instinct to protect and nurture women having unacceptable manifestations, homophobic may be to do with indoctrination of religious concepts etc) Usually even if someone thinks something completely unacceptable to you its not because they are a nasty person they are just looking at things in a completely different way (whether they are mistaken or not) and the only way to change that is address the issues rather than just attacking them as a person.
Cribsmas Morn. Hate to break it to you, but Israel is a hell of a lot better than Hezbollah and any of the Arab nations in terms of human rights, peacefulness, and diplomacy.
Daveyboyz it is possible to call someone's ideas misogynist and one's ideas racist, while the person whose ideas they are, will conflate that into a personal attack.
It is possible to separate.
This is like someone intelligently explaining to Owen Jones all his faults. I approve of this interview. Much respect Mr Pie.
you didnt watch the video as most the time they agreed...go back and hear how many times Walker says you are right
he's not
A leftist tries to portray a fellow leftist as right wing
that's how far left Owen is.
Tom Walker is a real liberal, owen represents an increasingly authoritarian faction of the left
Owen Jones may not be entirely correct about this issue but he writes more about the corruption of the current government than most other journalists today. Calling him authoritarian because he is cautious about the line between free speech and prejudice seems unfair.
Owen is neoliberal trash, Pie represents the true left.
FFS did you even listen to a word he said?
Am with Tom Walker on this one. I cannot understand shutdown politics. Jones is a ringleader of this mob stuff. He stifles debate and his shrill rants detract and distract from the issues that are so important.
I laughed out loud when OJ pretended he didn't know what Pie meant by shutting down debate and why its wrong
The problem I see with identity politics is that it denies the humanity of the person stereotyped as "white straight male". You can see this quite clearly in how the strategy is used: it is never used when a straight white male says something that the "leftist" agrees with or construes as "punching up". It is only ever used when the straight white male says something that the "leftist" disagrees with and by implication imputes as immoral.
Owen uses the example of the racial bias of stop-and-search as an example of something that Pie shouldn't, by implication of his skin-colour, be able to express an opinion on. The inference here is that Pie is incapable of empathising with anyone whose skin colour is a different shade to his, revealing what the "leftist" actually believes: namely that people who look different are incapable of understanding each other and should stay in their own lanes. i.e the leftist is actually racist and believes that people who look different do not share a common humanity and can never understand each other.
This is hidden behind the facade of "experience of the individual", paradoxically employed to justify their own fascination with grouping people by race and gender, and attributing representational rights, not to individual experience, but rather to group membership defined by physical characteristics.
On the contrary, the chastised Pie and others like him, challenge the identity narrative precisely because of their belief in an underlying shared humanity, whence their rejection of narratives that seek to divide us based on trivial physical characteristics in favour of narratives that make the unit measure of social justice the individual and not the group.
Ashley Mills 100% agreement
Noice. Not sure about the left is racist thing. But of course it’s a reoccurring argument pushed by lefties
It seems to me the left had no option but to adopt identity politics if they were ever to get enough support to be voted in again. Those who traditionally voted labour abandoned the party in the 1980s
Viewing anyone based on their colour and sexuality is wrong, which ever direction it is focused in. Its like saying a white guy cannot understand statistics or extremely complicated social manifestations where-as somebody who views the world through a lens of victimhood or looks constantly with a confirmation bias that the world is against them has much better understanding. Not right, being objective and taking a universalist attitude (one not fighting purely in ones own interests but on point of principle) might well understand things better regardless of the group identity of the individual. That's the great thing about being human, we can see the world through other peoples eyes if we listen to them speak and observe the world around us.
Savanna, not sure Ashley is suggesting the left is INHERENTLY racist, just that it is a common circumstance on the left right now. One which any lefty should really oppose.
Historically, it is anathema to the left. For the 200+ years of "real" left wing ideology, with the emergence of Industrialisation to merit the philosophical disputes, solidarity has been a key feature.
Working class people in the UK standing in solidarity with slaves in the US, for instance. (here's a letter Marx wrote to Lincoln :P www.marxists.org/archive/marx/iwma/documents/1864/lincoln-letter.htm. The context being strikes in the UK to protest any British involvement on behalf of the confederacy www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-21057494 )
Sadly, a lot of nuance is lost by the "intersectionality" crowd that substitute class solidarity, unity & empathy for identity politics (the argument that such things have merit doesn't justify what is done in their name, sadly)
Owen is an ideologue. Facts don’t matter.
if that means little mouthy tnuc i concur
Slashley gibbins typical leftist bullshit.
He gave loads of facts and stats in this video and Pie gave none lol
@Josh ______ I do believe that what he's saying is he disputes what Owen here presents as facts. He might disagree with him, _presentation of_ fact may be disingenious, you may disagree with an interpretation of facts relating to a context... but facts themselves - data - are just that. There's no agreeing or diagreeing, actual facts are binary; Correct or not correct.
@@theleopardpriestess809 Redifining the term 'facts' isn't an argument, diss track central.
"You put it underground and it becomes dangerous"....very wise words (3:08)
Pie having a grown up conversation. Jones not listening just trying to elicit the answers that further his agenda.
The juxtaposition of these two people makes Owen sound quite unreasonable and out of touch with common sense and reality.
it's funny, i had it the other way round.
That is because Owen and a lot of journalists are out of touch with common sense.
Funny that. Always thought Owen WAS unreasonable and had no common sense.
Owens isn’t very bright - Walker was suffering him
Indeed.... Pie is a classic liberal... Jones is an authoritarian socialist/communist/Marxist. Big difference.
Actually, Owen's caricatured point about how 'we didn't decrease racism by polite conversations' is wide of the mark in itself. Of course it was supported by legislation and protest, but it was also changed by conversations and, crucially, debate; not trying to shut people down. You can't change attitudes on their own purely by employing the first two things.
you expect Owen to be honest and knowledgable?
The idiot doesn't know that his opposition love him as he wants what they want, to shut down any dissenting speech.
100 % agree
I wonder if Owen will read the comments and see what people actually think 😂😂😂
that might burst his bubble
Joke aside, probably not. Most accounts with large followings (100k+) have moderators/virtual assistants to filter comments. They'll also cherry pick any useful ideas from commentators to develop into new video topics, etc. But all engagement (positive or hateful) helps any channel to gain further exposure. - Digital marketer
This isn’t what people actually think, it’s what the UA-cam comment section, famously to the right, thinks. It’s quite different on say Twitter, as that skews more to the left. It’s just a matter of demographics.
Most on here don't actually think. Eg. This is the next comment that I see here, "Owen Jones, still 14 and 3/4." Many do not think anything they throw verbal stones reflecting the poor level not only of 'thinking' but a poor level of lexical skills.
Most on here don't actually think. Eg. This is the next comment that I see here, "Owen Jones, still 14 and 3/4." Many do not think anything they throw verbal stones reflecting the poor level not only of 'thinking' but a poor level of lexical skills.
1. I’m a white Scot, I have been stopped and searched a handful of times growing up, not now since I’ve moved out of my old area and into a more middle class town. Maybe, just maybe Owen it’s your class that’s resulted in the lack of you being stopped.
Interesting that in the west of Scotland where almost all of the towns are majority white that it’s mostly white lads being harassed by the cops.
2. Free speech needs to be an absolute, the government and council and by extension the police are painting themselves into a corner with what can and can’t be said. It’s resulting in people being sacked or arrested for hurting someone’s feelings.
It can only get worse as more words become “illegal” and no legal body can back down or reverse the standard at the fear of being persecuted if they do. Give it another ten years or so and we won’t be able to poke fun at anything because everything will be a protected category.
My dad, a white man in the North of England, was also randomly stopped and searched in the streets a few minutes after he walked out of a local shop. He was suspected of stealing, because he walked out of a shop. And yes, we are a lower class family, so I would definitley agree that class has a Ln impact on "privilige"
His beef is with authoritarianism, doesn't matter if you're left or right, if that's your line of thinking you're a dangerous idiot. The problem with the 'left' is that there is more tolerance for the left brand of authoritarianism because it's behind a guise of compassion. The true left isn't these people, but people towards the centre tolerate and even indulge them far more than they do those on the far-right.
Most people know a Nazi is evil, but someone championing equality of outcome is a little more pernicious despite what they propose being oppressive just like fascism.
But very very few people supports equality of outcome. Human beings are social animals so when things are going well economically speaking we don't have little problem sharing our plenty and thinking that everyone should have a fair shot of making something of themselves.
I don't remember anyone i ever met ( even online) who believed outcomes will be equal or can be made exactly equal trough massive state planning or that it's a good idea to even try. People do believe in fairness but few if any believe in something for nothing and it stands to reason that social animals will expect everyone to contribute as best they can.
Also the equality of outcome only makes sense if one believes that human beings are generally similar capacities so that if people should all be given a fair treatment and opportunity in life they broad mass of society should end up in roughly similar economic situations. This wouldn't be trough strong central planning and assigning everyone specific help or subsidy but trough a fair treatment and not subsidising small segments of society into elevated economic positions.
He didn't seem to have a problem working for Putin's RT propaganda channel. So he's anti-authoritarian, unless he can boost his career and make some cash? Failed on the first hurdle.
Pieter Steenkamp my point was indeed that very few support equality of outcome. But that the people who do are rarely met with the same strength of opposition that someone suggesting ethnostates or racial superiority would. The argument over the gender pay gap would for some only be settled by equality of outcome and rational discussion about it gets met by them with cries of misogyny. The people making those cries though are given an ethical free pass we don't give the far right because it's veiled behind the guise of compassion for the 'oppressed'
Philip Burgess I'm pretty far to the left, and I too have never met anyone in real life or online that supports equality of outcome. Whenever people campaign for better wages and fairer distribution of wages, the emphasis is on a just compensation for labour. Not on everyone getting the same stuff.
rp145 I'm a university student where there is a literal Marxist society.
I must admit I'm sick and tired of political correctness and the elimination of free speech all of which will inevitably lead to tyranny, and all of this happening in the country that produced the Magna Carta. Are we willing to throw that away because someone somewhere has their 'feelings' hurt?
It is said that what is called "the spirit of an age" is something to which one cannot return. That this spirit gradually dissipates is due to the world's coming to an end. For this reason, although one would like to change today's world back to the spirit of one hundred years or more ago, it cannot be done. Thus it is important to make the best out of every generation. ;)
Looks like it.
I'm not a person who agrees with no platforming or shutting down people's right to their opinion. However, this is a severely lacking and I believe incorrect interpretation of what people who subscribe to identity politics believe. There are certainly people who have their feelings hurt and then try to shut down the debate. However, those with less of a hair trigger, truly believe (rightly or wrongly) that these discussions about their particular group (e.g. women, black people, trans, gay etc.) cause untold and unconscious damage to their group. They believe that allowing talk that they consider to be, for example, racist, causes a societal level undercurrent of implicit racism, which must be avoided.
As I say, this is not a view i even really agree with, but what i'm saying is don't set up a straw man. If you are going to debate an opinion, debate the true opinion
Owen Jones definitely got bullied at school.
Not enough.
HAHAHAHA! I think so.
How on earth is Jones employed and taken seriously as a journalist.
This is why journalist are considered some of the dumbest people on the planet.
He bums MP s in london.
@@normagriffiths9570 I think it's the other way around.
The Guardian has low standards.
@@smguy7 actually a highly regarded paper
Owen doesn't listen
really? really??
I love seeing Owen Jones face twitching as he struggles to understand the concept of freedom of speech.
Thats not just his face twitching, thats his brain nearly exploding m8...
12:15 jesus, tom, stop, you'll have to scrub his exploded brains off your nice sweater! that can't be worth it!
It's like 10,000 volts passing through his ears
His mind can’t process this barrage of thought crimes.
I would like to see the uncut interview because this is chopped so hard
yup, always as Pie is about to clarify Owen misunderstanding something he is saying.
Zero comments in two-and-a-half years? I find that hard to believe... is somebody censoring opinions they don't agree with?
Careful your comment will get deleted
I think comments were initially disabled
It would seem so.
The Guardian? No! Of course not! That's as absurd as their reporting being Partisan
It's the Guardian, no one bothers with it in real life.
I'm glad this happened. Pie has challenged my views and it made me uncomfortable, but it's actually made me more open minded. Thanks :)
You just restored my faith in humanity a bit, so thank you.
He's funded by Russia, it's an open secret, Google him and ask yourself why they are doing that.
He got an offer with being aired on RT originally because they gave him "total artistic control". That was the only reason why he chose them. He then subsequently left to do it by himself once he became more established.
Get your facts straight... He is not "funded" by Russia!
As I've been discovering, opening your mind is painful process but it's worth it on the other side. Think free!
Fur Queue RT is a gig not funded by Russia. Also what's wrong with being funded by Russia he never pushes their agenda forward and if he does then that means Russians have a far more logical agenda to push forward. Russia isn't the devil or the boogeyman, it's another country which arguably is very close to USA in that both are basically oligarchies. This fear of all things Russia is just illogical
Tom Walker's point of watering down the words 'racist' until it means nothing is one I've I have thought in the same way for ages I'm happily married to a woman for 15 years who is a different race, colour and faith then myself. We have only ever encountered racism once in all that time . It was disgusting, and the way it made me and my wife feel after was one of fear and sadness. This man was a real racist, and the word should never be watered down or used in anyway apart from it's real context.
This week on twitter I retweeted something regarding how illegal immigrants shouldn't have an amnesty because it is unfair for people who have legally gone through the immigration process. It's my view, nothing more, nothing less a view. I was immediately jumped upon from a great height by Owen's supporters and called a racist, and a Nazi lover! They devalued the word to it meant nothing where to those that have faced it it should mean everything!
Yeah I agree. I proudly consider myself left/liberal, but...this is what Walker meant about identity politics. Obviously we could talk forever about immigration - legal or otherwise - but it's still often a legitimate thing that needs discussion and isn't as simple as just "being racist" if you're opposed to or concerned about anything that isn't being completely open-armed. Although, going with that example there are of course racists who do exist, and will naturally be anti-immigration whenever the issue arises. Which really doesn't help that particular argument. All racists are anti-immigration, but that shouldn't undermine legitimate, sensible discussion about it, but here we are. Even to the point where "you voted Brexit? Racist!" even though there are a wealth of non-immigration issues related to that can of worms....and even then being concerned about immigration isn't inherently xenophobic.
AirTails totally agree!
Immigration is a disisive issue these days. It always makes me smile when I hear a politician or even Owen Jones say "we need a sensible discussion on immigration" then at the first chance about down anyone who has an appossing view! That goes for the left and right side of politicians!
Without a doubt there are people I would describe as racist, who want to close immigration into the UK, however I think they are mostly rare, as far as I understand people just prefer a sensible immigration policy!!
Going back to my original post, I don't think people who shout "racist" in a tourrets (spelt wrong I think) like spasm understand the real meaning of the word.. It's a word they use when they lack a counter argument to close a debate!! To misuse the word is a very dangerous game!
There’s an ever evolving rule book to stay in ‘the club’, no one really knows the rules. To stay in the club you have to constantly spout liberal dogma and be as sycophantic to the in group as possible.
The in group changes all the time, anyone who is in the ‘in group’ will be shot down if they don’t act like abused pets who have been saved (or need saving) from their former abusive master.
You had your membership revoked, it’s not much of a loss.
Sorry to pry, but you said you are married to someone who is a different Faith then you?
Does that raise issues? Faith can be a big part of peoples lives and I'm guessing you guys take it seriously because you bought it up.
I just have a hard time picturing it. And like... kids and stuff.... hm
@@PressA2Die Hi, sorry for the late reply, I've only just seen your post.
To be honest it doesn't, we are both mature enough to be able to dicuss it and respect each other. I am not so ignorant or tied to my faith to say 'I'm correct'. We are also both very secular in our outlook.
The one big advantage we did have though are our families never brought faith into our love. Both families were supportive and never raised the subject of faith. In fact through our union of marriage both our families have become close and share many moments together.
Of course, I do understand me and my wife are lucky and it definitely isn't always the case when someone enters into a mixed faith marraige.
4:33 "There are some people (on the right) who think free speech means the right to say what you want without being challenged."
Nobody thinks that, Owen. Stop saying it. It has to be, "on the right", as well? You can't be apolitical for ten seconds? Free speech means the absence of legal repercussions for voicing opinion, and protection under the law for those who are potential or actual victims of violence in reaction to their speech.
Owen seem to be the kind of person that think he has the right to say what he wants without being challenged.
"Some people on the right think its OK to say whatever you like without being challenged" - yea, never heard that one either, but there ARE people who claim that saying to two gay men on a street "you fucking queers" is free speech, and here, in this interview, Pie disagrees. So it's not a compelety outlandish argument
Which is funny, because he already seems quite challenged.
That quote is *such* a straw man. Or rather: That quote is *describing* a straw man :p
Haiiry Cake how is this shown? He literally had a healthy and informed debate with someone he disagrees win in this video. At what point does he say jonothon can’t disagree
Johnathan Pie is satire at its very best, the best we’ve had in a very long time.
If you think this then standards are very low in the UK now !
It is, but he got absolutely clowned in this interview.
loyalists can end themselves
Owen. You are part of the problem.
Your behavior and that of others is pushing people to the right.
Yes censor the promoters of right, censor right wing books, WE CAN WIN.
Exactly!
Trump won because people are sick of leftards like Jones.
@@apemoon1731 actually he is a mixed breed with just about 50% of votes.
@@gytisdramblewolfskis8521 During the US election campaign, did you notice that the more the Left accused him of any 'phobia' or 'ism' they could think of, the more popular he got?
They handed him the election because people are sick of that bullshit.
BTW, I hope you're joking about censoring 'promoters' and books,. If not, you're a part of the problem. Not to mention a hypocrite.
I seem to remember brown shirted members of a certain National Socialist Party censoring opinions and burning books. Know what I mean 😉
@@apemoon1731 trump won because of americas undemocratic system
Owen is a one trick pony.The victim mentology he constantly uses is pathetic.Another blatant show of how the left is now the party of authority.
TYPO: mentality
That's no typo, that's a blatant spelling error.
I love how he, as a privileged white male, is the victim. Trying to act as the voice for others is patronising, and I don't think he has the brain power to understand that. As Pie said, the new rebellion is to be right!
Owen Jones appears to be an absolutist masquerading as a pluralist. This is the problem with dogmatic views, whatever the political stripe. The inability to recognise that opinion is simply that; opinion. History informs us that whilst some values may be absolute they are invariably shaped by the zeitgeist of a particular time.
This video used to have a lot of comments on it. The users almost unanimously sided with Tom Walker/Jonathan Pie on this interview.
Think there's a correlation there.
It's like Pie is being reported on by a child, a very entitled child
I was wondering if this was a first year uni project to be honest
That's basically all I can see Jones as. I don't understand how he can be a person who people actually know. He must have family connections or something?
I quite liked it, it’s more like a hashing out of ideas than two people trying to belittle each other
@@davidharman3665 Yeah but it wasn't exactly an intelligent debate based on facts, reasoning and critical thinking.
It just happened to be civil and without insult, but it was still another case of feeling vs. logic nonetheless.
Then there was the fact that Owen was trying to push (Tom, is it?) into a situation wherein he might be able to out him as a potential racist, hoping he would make a mistake in his delivery which could be picked at like a week old scab.
“Women are minorities in every circle of public life” That’s factually incorrect, Owen.
No wonder Pie stumped in this interview - he’s trying to meet lies in the middle.
I noticed that too, felt sorry for pie here
Pie went to talk. He didn't expect Owen joins to throw lies and half truths at him. Owen Jones is a weasel who has drank so much cool aid his brain exploded and now he is "woke". I don't think he will ever get off his trip and actually join normal people.
i think it was just hyperbole.
Owen Jones doesn’t really get free speech does he
He just hates it.
Owen Jones is fine with free speech. As long as he agrees with it.
mark baker
Something something Noam Chomsky quote.
Owen seems to be constantly trying to fish out bigotry where it isn't and gets confused when he doesn't see it and then he tries it again. He will barely concede. He has a narrative. He's the kind of guy that goes after Johnathan Pie.
In total agreement with Tom Walker's POV, Owen displays a certain ideological blindness. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair
"There are some people on the right who think that free speech means the right to say what you want without being challenged".
Does Owen Jones genuinely believe this, or did he just misspeak? The most basic idea of free speech implies that you can challenge anything said by anyone. I wonder if Owen Jones can give any examples of 'people on the right' who think in the ridiculous way he describes?
Yeah I wish at that point Pie would have brought up how the BNP were destroyed by being given a platform on question time, and got laughed into obscurity.
Exactly, I thought that, too. And isn't it the left that has this inquisition on people challenging what they say?
@Stephen Essex That is certainly the impression I have. Don't keep fully up to date with all the political labels around, but wanting to use to the law to prevent people from saying things that challenge your ideas (or that offend you) seems almost an entirely left wing opinion at the moment, no? Just seems strange for Owen Jones to imply the opposite without a trace of irony...
@Paul Kirby it's mainly left wing. They label any opinion that goes against what opinion they tell us to have on a certain issue as a phobia or bigotry. Just yesterday this purple haired woman posted on facebook "if someone can see a dog walker and say 'how old is he?' and then the owner says 'actually it's a she' and then IMMEDIATELY apologize and call it a she, then why can't we do it for trans?" And i posted "because that person would then see from the genitals that it's a she, and would then apologize. Well, they wouldnt apologize, that's silly, but they'd correct themselves. Nothing against trans there, just here ridiculous logic. She blocked me for "vile transphobia". This young people want attention but dont want to put the effort in or take the responsibility of having it. "I'll post what i think based entirely on my emotions because I'm too stupid to look at facts, pretending to be this edgy establishment fighting warrior (despite almost the entire western establishment pushing your same idiocy), and if anyone disagrees, my moral outrage is more than compensatory for not having facts, and when I block them I win the discussion". Why on earth post your opinion on a public forum if you cannot tolerate other opinions?
I'd love to know how many votes owen jones lost the left
Mine at the very least.
I was on here months ago and there were LOADS of comments... Guardian get your act together!!!
I thought Owen's impersonation of Black Adder's Prince George quite masterly.
This is yet another example of how 14-year-olds should stay out of politics.
Agreed
ive changed so much in my political views since I was 14
Owen Jones is exactly the kind of person Jonathan pie satires so well and he seems oblivious he's just been teased throughout the whole interview. Owen sweetcheeks, you are the gift that keeps giving
100%
The freedom of speech to debate anything...not the freedom to randomly insult people..
Exactly. Not very hard to understand the difference, one might think.
Not all speech is productive, but free speech isn't for talking about the weather either. We can talk about how white Brits have somehow failed in their social responsibilities, but just TRY criticizing any other demographic on the same grounds, you will be banned and you will be arrested. All it takes is for one protected class to be slighted, and the conversation will be shut down. Nobody has free speech anymore, because you aren't permitted to criticize certain groups, not even the elite journalists themselves.
'1.4 Million women face domestic violence, 400,000 sexual assaults, 95,000 rapes - the vast majority of those cases there is no justice' - that is well up there with the most ridiculous things Owen has ever said.
Misc Ellaneous I agree. I don't recognise this world Jones lives in. It seems to me we have to scrape the barrel to find instances of racism, sexism and homophobia these days. Hence the doubling down on 'incorrect' language use, minor sleights and 'micro-agressions'.
Do tell us what the actual stats are then, so we can see how ridiculous what Owen said really is.
Otherwise you have nothing to back up your claim.
The majority of rapes aren't reported, never go to court, are never convicted. That's true.
It's the debate of politics (low debate) just throw loads of figures the other person will have no way of countering or checking during a conversation. In a proper conversational debate (i.e you aren't trying to 'win' anything) it should be about ideas and thoughts, it's basically another form of the shut down that Pie identifies with 'racist, bigot etc'
do you know how burden of proof works?
I find Owen doesn't get it. Literally doesn't understand the issues of identity politics
He does, but he needs it to win arguments so he won't say anything critical
OK tehn WHAT are then issues of identity politics?
"We live in a society" - Owen Jones
😂
I need a best of Owen Jones
"What is Identity politics?"
Identity Politics is when you stop fighting against oppression, and you start fighting for the group you feel is being oppressed.
The funniest thing about this is that I’m pretty sure Owen Jones himself wrote a book (‘The Establishment’ I believe) of which the main argument was that identity politics is an unhelpful diversion from class struggle!
Well done Pie, less so Jones. If I had to point one quote out: "My experience of the world is as unique as anyone else´s on this planet".
Yeah great quote and something for us all to remember about our selves.
Yes, but he still knows less about racism than someone who's been the victim of racism.
(to forestall, "how do you know he hasn't?" I mean serious things like being passed over for a job or assaulted, etc. A reasonable assumption that he hasn't...)
@@vampireducks1622 A victim of racism will most certainly understand how it feels to be discriminated against better than a person who has not will, that is a given. However, that is never something that is questioned, almost universally people agree 'discrimination is bad.'
Being a victim of discrimination does not make you more qualified to talk about systemic racism or anything beyond your own experience, it is for the most part, anecdotal. It does not belong in discussions about how oppressed a class or group is nor does it give you the absolute right to say if country and the government running it is systematically discriminatory.
Whether or not a minority or woman has faced discrimination is just as irrelevant as the white people and men who bring up how they have faced the same thing the moment you go beyond the question of 'Does racism exist and is it bad?' Yes, obviously.
@Rekli Has Decided To Have A Long, Attention Grabbing Name Because He Can
That's a long post. It's easier and more convenient then to reply point by point.
1. "A victim of racism will most certainly understand how it feels to be discriminated against better than a person who has not will, that is a given."
Yes, it is a given, or t least I would hope so. But then so is "My experience of the world is as unique as anyone else´s on this planet".
I don't think Owen Jones or anyone else was questioning whether Tom Walker or anyone else's experience was unique or not.
2. "However, that is never something that is questioned, almost universally people agree 'discrimination is bad.'"
It's actually not universally agreed by people that "discrimination is bad". You have plenty of people who say, "Ah, but "discrimination" - what kind of discrimination?" etc, etc. Also, there are plenty of racists (I've met some), and racists in general are in favour of discrimination that agrees with their views about supposedly better and worse types of human life. As for, "almost", that's a weasel word that could mean anything you like it to mean. But let's suppose what you says is true and "almost universally" people agree with that. Well, if that's true, it's certainly true that "almost universally" people believe that everyone's experience of the world is as unique as anyone else's. (Perhaps racists don't but, a fortiori, that just undermines your point.)
3. "Being a victim of discrimination does not make you more qualified to talk about systemic racism or anything beyond your own experience, it is for the most part, anecdotal." You've lumped together two or more different things there. First, *other things being equal*, clearly a victim of racism is more qualified to talk about racism in general than someone who isn't a victim of racism. (Because knowledge from experience.) But this also means that, *other things being equal*, the victim of racism is more qualified to talk about systematic or society-wide racism than a non-victim. Because different types and manifestations of racism are still racism, a victim of racism will still understand another manifestation or type of racism to that which s/he has been subjected to, better than someone who has not been the victim of any kind of racism. Now, of course, you might drop the mutatis mutandis of rational comparison by comparing, say, two persons, A. who is a victim of racism but has not studied racism as a social phenomenon, and B. who is a (non-racist) non-victim of racism of who has spent a lifetime studying systematic racism in in politics, business, law enforcement, etc. In that case, it's entirely plausible to think that B. might have a better and deeper understanding of the mechanisms and underpinnings of systematic racism. But this would be a silly and pointless comparison. It is not comparing the point at issue by keeping things otherwise equal. (I hope this is obvious; it's a fairly simple point about analogical reasoning.) As for, "for the most part anecdotal", I'm not sure what that's supposed to establish. The non-victim is bereft of even anecdotes.
4. "It does not belong in discussions about how oppressed a class or group is nor does it give you the absolute right to say if country and the government running it is systematically discriminatory."
No-one is talking about an "absolute right" to anything, whatever that means. That's a straw man. As for "does not belong to discussions of..." it most certainly does. Different levels of racism are not somehow hermetically sealed off from each other. So the experience of a victim is still relevant and informs the understanding and analysis of more systematic racism. But I've already addressed this point (see 3. above).
Etc.
Owen Jones once again shows just how thick he is
how? theyre both on the same side of the page
It's Pie that can't defend what he is saying!
A B no they are not Owen wants to imprison racist Tom walker wants to talk to them
Sarah L he defends them very well Owen just jumps over over all of his points
@@sarahl3721 what has Pie said that he cannot defend?
I'm getting the impression that the Jones assumes that the world begun on the day he became a student.
Interviewing under a blossoming tree: it's a learning experience for everyone!
The biggest problem with identity politics is that it places one's race/gender/sexuality etc. above a person as an individual, and suggests that a member of said group should have some sort of loyalty to it. It's a herd mentality that encourages group think and turns people into sheeple. As Sting put it "People go crazy in congregations, they only get better one by one." A government should give everyone the same rights in law and aim to provide the same opportunities for all - essentially a level playing field. After that it is up to the individual to make something of themselves. Some will do well, some will not, it is as simple as that.
cocopud id say it doesn't place it above their individuality per se. Instead it acknowledges they are an individual but that also they're part of groups and their experiences may feed into certain trends that that group experiences as a whole.
And if you start to talk about the poverty in white working class communities you get implied to be a racist. Witness Akala 'shutting down' the audience member who tried to raise this on Question time recently...
I never realised that Sting was singing those words. Insightful. But the thing is, when you experience bigotry, violence and oppression as black people have and similarly, women, you need solidarity and movements to give you courage and the power to affect change. Do you think the Suffragettes could have changed the law one by one? "A government should give everyone equal right and the same opportunities". Yes, but they won't unless they are pushed to do so, as the powerful have looked after their own very effectively for thousands of years!!
When groups get together with shared problems to be solved, it gets called identity politics to shut them down. The hypocrisy is palpable.
Definitely get no argument off me there, Any Political party that supports that would get my vote