I think the best example of this type of cancellation not being in good faith is the number of tweets saying, "can't wait for Jenny Nicholson to tweet something bad so that we can cancel her too" when she had not done anything wrong yet. Like clearly these cancellations are no longer about holding people accountable but are instead about tormenting people we don't personally like.
@@jmwvirgil I disagree. When talking about exposing Racism/White Supremacy very rarely, if ever, are the people who practice it are held accountable this is just a very weak attempt at that. Saying that what happened to Lindsay wasn't an example of what I'm talking about.
This conversation confirms for me that Lindsay is different now, and it makes me so sad. It's like seeing your favourite teacher arrive for class one day looking beaten down and like they want to give up because of your shitty classmates.
It was so sad hearing her say she doesn't trust her audience on UA-cam 😭 seeing a person be so changed that they can't share their talents, just shocking
I didn't even know she went through all that until her UA-cam video. I love her work and she is a great creator. I hope she keeps going but 1 million percent would get it if she stopped tomorrow.
As a mixed race person, I never understood cancellation culture for the purposes of someone’s respectful critique of a film/piece of art. Two things can be true at the same time: A film can be really well made and happen to be created by and be about a person/people of color and their experience, and on the flip side a film/artwork can also not be that well made and be about / created by a person/people of color. I would venture to say (and hope) the race of the artist shouldn’t matter. The critique is simply based on the quality of the art. 💁🏽♀️
“People have lost the ability to simply dislike someone else without framing it ‘I’m doing the world some good.” 25:30 I’ve noticed this in even smaller scale interactions with “friends” I’ve made on the internet. The moment you have a falling out, they take to Twitter to subtweet about what a secret narcissist you are and then every time they feel like it they bring you up in a negative connotation. In the real world, you just move on with your life.
I did notice it with a friend who was an offline and became a strictly online friend in the last 2 years. I guess it’s the fact they can’t look you in the eyes makes them feel like they have the right to act like that. She has different opinions about society and even I went “you think this, I think that, we have different opinions, that’s it” - she started an Instagram stories version of subtweeting 🤦🏻♀️
I also dislike the pathologizing, just because you dislike someone and think they are egotistical or self centered doesn't mean they are narcissistic and even if they were why weaponize their mental health against them? It's so annoying, just move on.
I don't see this as a new thing, I am familiar with that mindset since primary school basically. "Either you are with me or you're enemy" kind of thing. I've observed it in girl cliques preschool Edit: not saying this is good, just nothing new
The whole concept of "You can't get defensive or you're wrong" is so fucking manipulative. People should be allowed to defend themselves against accusations of things they never did. It's just a way to attack people and expect them to just take it no matter what.
Yes, exactly! "If hearing this makes you feel defensive, you should think about why/how that may be a sign that it's true" - uh, no it isn't. If I call someone, say, a liar it will hurt them, especially if they aren't a liar. As a reaction they might withdraw, get defensive, get aggressive, whatever their reaction to being hurt might be. None of this makes my accusations true.
@@anitabonghit2758 As far as I know he doesn't defend himself, because he is of the opinion that just sharing his opinion is not something someone would ever have to be defensive about. So your comment makes no sense.
@@armoredp you'd be surprised how little credit or leeway people will give someone like ben shapiro just because he's willing to speak his mind and opinion with cited sources. I'm not a fan of ben shapiro, but most people who hate him just hate him because he thinks differently than them. Can't have that! lol
The funny thing is that A LOT of people including Asian Americans/Canadians, Asian immigrants, pretty much any other reviewer in UA-cam including Spanish UA-cam, saw the similarities between Raya and ATLA
Yeah, and omgosh I never saw the tweets in question but I thought I was the only one who thought the same about Soul. So sorry this happened to Lindsay, so unfair.
It's a HUGE trend in YA fantasy and not just in Asian fiction. Children of Blood and Bone, for example, is Avatar in Africa. The author even admits it. And let's not even talk about the plague of Zuko knockoffs...
@hasslfoot Adding to that, in my own experienced as a mixed race person, most people are not approaching cancellations of this nature having had any meaningful conversation with a person who belongs to the community they are attempting to defend. Instead, the content of their sermons tends to be derived third hand from internet communities that are little more than insular echo chambers. The problem with this is that the people who belong to these communities do not comprise a monolith and what offends one person may not offend a majority of others. Another problem is that it often results in the silencing of minorities in conversations about them, and the people getting most offended are almost always white, cisgender and heterosexual. They are not generally questioning whether the opinion they are jumping on board with is even reflective of real world attitudes toward the subject at hand, whether it does any actual harm; and these online communities have a tendency to intimidate the dissent into silence, even among those who belong to the communities in question. Given that, it's my belief that almost all cancellations are in bad faith, and that the culture surrounding them is more often harmful to minorities than helpful, as our voices tend to be silenced in favor of our white, cisgender and heterosexual peers.
SO, the cancelling of Ms. Ellis was one of the stupidest things I have ever seen on the internet. I saw the tweets. I looked at all of the responses to it. I didn't/don't understand how people created the takes that they had on the situation. Anyway, I'm looking forward to the new book!
I feel so bad for her, you can tell it really affected her mentally. She's visibly uncomfortable. Those who did this for such an insignificant comment should evaluate their actions, if you can feel satisfaction from bringing someone down in this way, to effectively bully them into almost quitting their career then there's something very very wrong. I wish her all the best and I fear for the state of discourse in the world moving forward, this is not how we are going to have a more egalitarian, free and just society. It's only going to create more hatred, more division. Which we are already seeing time and time again. Scary...
These people who "cancel" on stupid things, non-issues, are just miserable and bored so much with their life that they go and shit on legitimate creators and nice people just to satisfy their empty souls. Once you go in, it's hard to get out because there;s a temporary filling of the void, like when you buy something then you get bored.
great first step! now relaize how many people who you consider to be "devils" (meaning politically center and further to the right) were cancelled before her, and nobody bat an eye, because to you guys, they're not people. "to effectively bully them into almost quitting their career then there's something very very wrong. " it's an absolutely standard practice used (and possibly also invented, in its current form) by leftists and progressives. does that mean you have just admitted there's something very very wrong with leftism and progressivism? because I would agree.
Yes something has changed not trying to be a bit polite More of lynch mob society Where in rural communitys Here in missouri 100 years ago you you could be decided guilty by mob of neighbors and hanged This swing societies take makes US achievements Over last 100-300 years Quite scary radicalization We will be no better than third world countries /or this authoritarian military control stuff I fear for my kids and grandkids future And I'm white I know blacks still are being persecuted Hope I'm wrong but don't have a good feel of gerrymandering to control votes more gun rights less womens rights We are going backward not forward as a society I 60 yr single female farm owner know 50 yr old male neighbors think i have no place in farming no one friendly any more out for them selves towns city's much worse on multiplied scale None of it good
@@MidnightSt you seem to forget decades of right wing radio/television villifying and abusing progressives - or anyone else that was deemed an appropriate target. Invented by leftists = absolutely false. It's absolute gaslighting to suggest that the alt-right media conglomerate is somehow a victim because people push back against disinformation.
It's ridiculous that she gets cancelled for making the connection between ATLA and Raya. Then Honest Trailers does their video doing the same comparison for laughs.
I think the complete nonsense of the whole thing was exposed by how much of a nothing tweet it was. I’d already made a “Raya and the Last Airbender” joke, the minute I heard about the plot. The fact that so many people thought this exact thing, yet she got dog piled for what was both true and not even offensive, just shows that it was people who wanted to go after her in particular. Lindsay even says that in this video- if it wasn’t that tweet, it would have been something else. Because it wasn’t actually about the tweet, or the thought behind the tweet- it was about her. Which was made even clearer by how no one else was “cancelled”, even though so many people thought and said the exact same thing, usually in a far less sensitive way.
Also compared or being a reminisce to atla: frozen 2 But i don't see the pitchforks and torches hurled around.. besides, she's not the only one who thought (and tweeted) about the similarities
@@katherinemorelle7115 it’s ridiculous gatekeeping and some sort of idea that if something *could* mean something important to anyone, any and all critique are therefore an attack of the entirety of the film and an attack on the fans. It’s the death of intelligent debate.
its disingenuous to act like this was exclusively over this single raya/atla comparison and not a list of bigoted shit that she deflected in the same manner every time. thats why this comment blew up in the first place- not because that comment was the most horrible thing she could have said, because she had already said a ton of weird shit and refused to take accountability for it each time, and people were fed up
I have been a fan of Lindsey Ellis since the dark days of yore. Way back in the channel awesome days. Her brand has evolved over the years, but has always been consistent. Sometimes I agree with her opinions sometimes not, but I will not stand anyone talking shite about her ever. Get out of here with that nonsense.
Same I've been watching since 2011. I had the pleasure to meet her and hang out a little bit at a con and she's very nice and down to earth. She's just a person. Sometimes she makes mistakes. So does literally everyone. Harassing someone for their flaws is ridiculous
I am Southeast Asian and I don't find anything offensive from her remarks and comparison between Avatar the Last Airbender, and Raya and the Last Dragon. I saw both animé and her analysis is correct. There are a lot of similarities between the two animé/animation. 'COZ BOTH ARE BASED ON THE AMALGATION OF DIFFERENT ASIAN CULTURE, MYTHS AND LITERATURE!!! (i.e. the representation and personification of the main four elements, dragons, division of nations, etc.) I bet the fake/overblown outrage was primarily from non-asian people.🙄 This was not even in my radar or on radar of my asian friends, colleagues and family. 🤷🏻♀️
Same! Had no idea this happened to her until i watched her video. But I'm also not on Twitter? I do remember from her video that she said it was a lot of white people telling her she "needs to listen to poc"
Also southeast Asian, and I have no idea what people were offended over....it's like people try to twist everything into the most negative perspective possible. So over white people telling POC when they should be offended over comments about their own culture.
Yeah but don’t you want people whitesplaining why you should be offended?! Apparently they exist to make the world a better place but that doesn’t imply any sort of conversation 😣
Agreed! I’m also SE Asian and took zero offence to her comment. The movie is a mix of all Asian cultures - literally everything from the way the dressed, the food they ate, and the idea of dragons, etc. Anyone who knows the basics of Asian cultures can see that. Twitter just tries to cancel people to validate themselves.
SE Asian as well, twitter is a toxic place that is just … ugh..not all movies or creative pieces are going to hit people the same and that’s ok! Just because she saw it was a copy of the Last airbender doesn’t make it a bad thing. I mean… unless you didn’t like that masterpiece.
I would be surprised if Lindsay is reading these comments, but if she is (or if someone is reading on her behalf): I am so sorry that this happened to you. The mob attacking you was far too much, your commentary in those two recent tweets was nothing bad, and you feeling forced to recount your assault was horrific. Take care.
@hasslfoot as others have mentioned in the comment section - honest trailers blatantly compared the two. I really hope she heals better and stronger after this, can't imagine it.
I had to leave Twitter entirely because I could feel how it was warping my mind, turning my cultivating political and personal beliefs into pure performance. I consider myself a thoughtful and considerate person so it was hard to admit that to myself and delete the app entirely for my own well-being. These social mechanisms are powerful and until they are changed in massive, maybe not always profitable, ways, they will continue to produce sludge. Lindsay, I guarantee that this hatred only exists in the toxic ecosystem of Twitter, which is such a small percentage of your fanbase. That being said I know how hard it is to recognize that mentally. Anyways, Lindsay and Chelsea are incredibly smart and thoughtful, entertaining people in social media apps that simply do not deserve them LOL... that being said, we benefit as a freakin SOCIETY from the work you do.
I never got into Twitter, I have Tumblr to waste my time and brainpower and it gives me all the drama I could crave (usually pointless hilarious drama like shipping wars) and it's a lot easier to curate your experience on Tumblr (thank you Tumblr Savior!). I do have a twitter account but I am so careful about who I follow and the kind of things I seek out. Mostly I'm interested in art and artists! But god yeah, it can be so toxic and the culture around it is scary.
I'm still on Twitter, but I'm a train buff, so follow mostly train stuff. And even if I disagree, I tend to be very polite about it, so I have rarely experienced a pile on. But yeah, I try to steer clear of most toxic discussions...
I resonate with that. I left Twitter a couple years ago (I logged in a couple times since then just to see what was goin on lol but never anything really new), I do miss the memes and the jokes, but my biggest problem is that I couldn’t scroll an inch without accidentally reading something that was either annoying or upsetting… that part I do not miss haha
I left Twitter when I realized it was making me pointlessly angry. I also felt shocked when I was called a b*tch for suggesting someone not be so harsh about a random person on the Bachelorette. It’s a choice to subject yourself to stuff that mean. I’ve never missed it!
You know what’s actually crazy? I’m a huge TLA fan and when I saw The Raya movie and a trailer I honestly thought about TLA. I was like woah this is so similar so it’s crazy to me that she pointed out something completely rational.
A *lot* of critics and commentators were making jokes lime "Raya the Last Dragonbender" weeks before Lindsay made her comment. 'Honest Trailers' made that joke, and got millions of likes with almost no dislikes. Nobody had an issue with the comparison until Lindsay said it.
I’m totally sick of the mindset some people online have, where your intention doesn’t matter at all, and you’re forced to apologize if something you said or did was taken in the most out of context or bad faith way, something no normal person would assume you meant from what you actually said, and then the apology isn’t accepted anyway and the not offensive incident is held against you for all eternity. What do these people even want? Is it just about feeling morally superior to someone who made a tiny perceived transgression? Lol get a life!!
It is 100% about feeling superior by knocking someone down. Some people don't know how to self esteem and think they have to sacrifice others at the alter in order to feel better about themselves.
@@tinabean713 the sad thing is they don't even know that's what they're doing. Bullies have an extremely hard time recognizing that they're bullies. especially if that behavior is normalized in their environment.
26:37 Lindsay explains so well why demanding an apology works to distance and spotlight the “wrongdoer”, forcing them to perform for profile (profile-building or profile-repair), rather than create an atmosphere of reconciliation that feels genuine to both parties. It’s less about connection and more to do with control. EDIT: a reply in the comments pointed something out that I agreed with; i think there are spaces for requiring an apology. it’s a little more nuanced. here, i think there’s distinction of medium/context of social media: lindsay pointed out an outcome of demanding an apology online/on social media, mediums with profile-building as an ultimate end (medium=message), which can facilitate disingenuous interactions, rather than build a bridge between two parties (it’s weird, could it be two parties if it’s an individual or a few individuals against the disseminated masses?).
I think there could be a legit place for requiring an apology? We don't like cognitive dissonance, so at least some people forced to apologise will then genuinely change their minds. It's a very parental thing to do, though, and so very problematic outside of very specific contexts.
This is such a good comment, including the edit. If anyone is interested, I highly recommend the book "We Will Not Cancel Us" which explores "cancellations" in left-wing twitter and activist communities in more depth, from an abolitionist POV.
This comment makes me think of a few things. Firstly is profilicity, which your partly explaining/talking about and might be interested in researching further. The second, seems less related but its that obsession with a safety creates sickness.
@@little_flitter right, I've recently learned about profilicity this month! Been watching the videos of prof. hans georg-moeller from carefree wandering channel, perhaps you're familiar already with them. I'll have to look into your second point, which i already have a feeling of agreement with. obsession with safety reminds me of an overarching obsession with or identification with an ideology. Edit: Wasn’t typing too carefully and wrote Prolificity instead of Profilicity haha...
I feel like you should check out Dr. K, he talks with a lot of content creators about mental health and it’s very heartwarming to see people in that position feel safe enough to express their vulnerabilities
@@saraalemayehu7951 that's healthygamer right?? Just checking cause I recently came across him and love his stuff! To op - do it. 100% do it. As social media grows, we are only going to need it more.
That's the thing, too, is that there's _such_ a pervasive attitude that people's intentions don't matter at all, and that trying to explain yourself is a malicious and self-centered refusal to take responsibility for the pain you've caused -- and then, of course, we nitpick people's sincere apologies that don't acknowledge their own intentions for word choice, tone, timing, etc. and instigate another round of demanding "accountability" if anything is wrong with those. There's no way to win except be _immaculate_ in everything that you do. And that's impossible. Sorry for venting a little bit here on your supportive message -- I think it's just such a rarity for me to see people acknowledge good or even neutral intentions. It's nice to see, and it makes me feel a lot of things. 🙃
Idiots made Lindsay Ellis recount her sexual assault because they didn’t like a joke. She has made mistakes I understand but how did making her recount a bad and horrible time in her life solve anything? She made a silly joke about a movie. That’s all. I still watch her stuff and I think we should focus on the real evil people.
What mistakes? Seriously. Why are entitled rightwing people getting away with all kinds of crap and their shibboleth; those awful lefties communism around the corner or something equally monstrously idiotic and untrue don't get it.
@@evelynbaron8357 she admitted in her mask off videos that she made some videos that she was not proud of and shouldn’t have made. But she’s human. We are all human and we can only evolve. And she obviously did. That’s good. She’s put more good into the world than bad. And that is all that matters to me.
I would like to see Lindsay’s critics have the same kind of grace in handling their mistakes in 2040, when future teens and 20 somethings will call them out for whatever dumb mistakes they’ll make today that are in bad taste 19 years from now…
These last two sit down videos with Lindsay and Jamie have been so refreshing and thought-provoking that I’ve stopped the household chore I was doing while listening just to listen more closely. So my productivity is down, but my enjoyment/education is way up!
For those who can't or won't read, there is also a segment John Oliver did on public shaming that ended with a great sit down interview with Monica Lewinsky. There's also the Britney Spears documentary that just came out. Cancelling isn't new and it isn't going away. The lowest common denominator among us loves to dogpile on anyone and everyone at the slightest provocation. Especially young women succeeding in any given field. When you see a shitstorm brewing don't jump on the bandwagon. Don't be a Diane Sawyer. Be a Craig Ferguson.
@@CitanulsPumpkin I haven't seen that documentary yet, but I greatly enjoyed John Oliver's episode on it. The interview with Monica was great. I can't even begin to imagine what she had to go through, but in spite of all that I think she has become a great role model for young women like myself. I have never participated in these dog piles and I don't have a Twitter account, so I find all of this fascinating (in a profoundly negative way). It's sad that it is a part of our society to do this to people.
Twitter is a liability, it is also just mostly trash. The entire platform is just 20-second hot-takes from every emotional toddler on the planet. Its format literally forbids nuance, context, and deeper understanding.
Mmm I think Chelsea's argument about how bad-faith cancellation is essentially just a new method of cyberbullying--that's a really interesting argument.
But it's a practice Lindsay herself has engaged in. The cancelling of JK Rowling is the most high profile bad-faith cancellation there is, rooted in sheer misogyny, and Lindsay was all too happy to jump on board. The abuse Rowling has received is horrible - it's actual cyberbullying - and Lindsay didn't have a thing to say about it at the time. In fact, she made a whole video propagating these bad faith interpretations of Rowling's words. A video from which she undoubtedly profited, through ad revenue. Chelsea's point is a good one, but it frames Lindsay as the innocent victim of bullies, when in fact, she was a participant in a culture that was always doomed to backfire on her eventually. I can't help but wonder how many other fans lost respect for Lindsay when she chose that path, and how it might have impacted her own eventual cancellation. In targeting her content to the type of fans who would cancel Rowling, she alienated the very same fans who would have defended her. She had left herself with only the mob, and the casual fans too afraid not to go along with the opinions of the mob. What happened next is no surprise.
@@lateralhistory Untrue. JK Rowling is choosing to actively harm people with her transphobic rhetoric despite plenty of people offering to educate her on why she was wrong. She is someone who should be cancelled. Lindsay made a comment about similarities between two movies that happen to be Southeast Asian inspired and people decided to tear her down to make themselves feel better. Huge difference.
@@lateralhistory that’s not an appropriate comparison. JK Rowling, while she claims to care about trans people, has been arguing against policies which will advance their political rights. She has propagated regressive rhetoric, suggesting that trans youth are “convinced” that they are trans when the aren’t really (by whom??) and also suggesting that allowing trans women in women’s bathrooms would be dangerous. Rowling has been receiving a lot of vicious harassment as well, which is wrong, and I’m sure is horrible and overwhelming. Now Lindsay could have mentioned that in her video, but that wasn’t really the topic: Lindsay was explicitly framing this as a “death of the author” discussion, because it’s something she’s talked about before. Rowling being harassed on Twitter is not germane to that, and the video was already long. If you think that people are purposefully misinterpreting Rowling, I’d suggest watching the Contrapoints video about this. She does a good job framing what Rowling said. She is also very kind and understanding about where Rowling is coming from. But ultimately, I maintain there is no comparison. Lindsay tweeted about two similar movies being similar. Rowling is advancing a political position, in the form of a lengthy essay. Not the same at all.
From my understanding people were more mad she called people saying the comparison between a property made by white people versus by south Asian folks isn’t that great, crazy.
@Colt Trow At no stage did Rowling say trans people don't deserve rights. You'll find it easier to find a quote where she advocates for trans rights, than you will to find anything like that. You do see how you just proved my point, right?
Really great video. It's really disheartening to see how cynical and disillusioned this has made Lindsay feel but I don't think anyone could possibly blame her. I really enjoy her videos which are fun but also really insightful. I am really passionate about talking about media and have always been really inspired that she takes it to the level that she does with her analyses. I'm glad that she hasn't suffered financial loss due to what happened, but honestly it seems like the people doing this highly visible creative work have the most toxic work environment imaginable at times. It's not a price creators should have to pay for financial success. Chelsea, I really liked this new video format. I'm going to check out the other one you did recently. I agree with others who said that it was an engrossing video. I was organizing my desk while watching but ended up getting caught up just watching the video and nothing else.
The problem is that cancellation usually affects people in the progressive spaces for fairly minor "transgressions" of whatever doctrine is trending act the moment and many of those people are not nearly as famous as Lindsey or Contrapoints. For them, cancellation could mean lose most of their social circle, sometimes their jobs, and of course they going to gravitate to however show them some compassion (even the right), specially after people that price themselves for being so open minded and accepting abandoned them so easily
"The problem is that cancellation usually affects people in the progressive spaces for fairly minor "transgressions"" ...why progressive spaces? people in other spaces are affected from different reasons than the ones cancellation itself has built into it? she expressed her opinion and was cancelled because higher powers didn't like the opinion. how is it different from a centrist who expresses his opinion and is cancelled because the same higher powers didn't like that opinion? why do you feel the need to exclude such a huge group of people, by specifygion "affects people *in progressive spaces*"? why are you exclusionary, to all people in all other spaces?
Except theyre not cancelled? You cant be properly cancelled without losing your platform, and Lindsay said in the video that she hasnt had any financial backlash, has in fact increased in supporters and is seen as more sympathetic after this. She's not been harmed at all.
@@brigidfarley6347 mostly because she is a cutural analyst/ movie reviewer that just happens to have progressive views, and her public is all over the political spectrum (ok, probably mostly in the center left, but you get the idea). When people with malicious intentions tried to cancel her by twisting her words to make her look racist, she has a lot of people to fall back, people that can see how ridiculous is the "hollier than you" actitudes or the "virtue signaling" of woke Twitter. Many small creators, minorities, or even activists doesn't have that luxury
Lindsay Ellis is so talented and has created so much amazing free content. I'm so sad that she's been treated badly and hope it doesn't kill her desire to create. I've always admired her and her work so much. Thanks for having her on the TFD channel
“Why did you send a hate mob to attack John Boyega?” Is apparently valid That and “I can speak over Native Americans because I have a few that said it was ok” or “Harriet should be played by a yt woman, lol I’m so funny even though this is an insensitive time to make such a joke”
@@dandylionsloth446 Dude, a lot of creators made parodies about how similar both stories are. Pointing something like that out is not problematic at the slightest. Even if she had said she thought the movie was bad, how is that racist or problematic?
I found Lindsey after she was cancelled. I found it to be dumb and so I continue to subscribe to her channel. I like the long format of her videos. Video essay channels are great to watch and you don’t have to agree. The different perspectives are interesting to analyze.
Ive told others about her videos and was like "yes its as long as the actual movie, but way more enjoyable". I have gone through all of her musical theatre stuff way more than healthy. I have it on while i work
This was refreshing because we know that things like Twitter and "canceling" are so superficial so much of the time, but this was a real conversation with nuance that was ABOUT those superficial things WITHOUT being superficial itself. It's also worth mentioning that I had never heard of her or this situation before, so I have no emotional investment, but even still, I really appreciate seeing content like this which feels like a real reflection of respectful and productive conversation.
I had never watched her content and and after binging on like, 7 videos, I'm hooked. I feel bad that she went through that for this nonsense reason. I hope she recovers emotionally from this eventually.
This is why we can't have anything nice. It's such a shame that such a genuine and thoughtful commentator has been essentially chased away by a bunch of disingenuous bullies. I want Lindsay back.
Poor Lindsay... I saw bits and pieces of her cancellation happen and I still do not understand it. She's a brilliant mind... it's unfortunate that intelligent people get targeted this way.
Its easy to understand. She contributed to cultivating this sociopathic toxic culture. She set this standard. Now she is upset because its happening to her and not Ben Shapiro
She tried to remove other providers for almost as little as the sin she was shamed by members of the mob she helped form. The last one was a month ago, so clearly she didn't learn anything for being on the wrong side of an attack for once.
I remember Angelina tweeting that people that you both know were trashing you and your work and at the same time asking her if she was ok during all this. What shit people holy hell.
Lindsay i don’t use Twitter but i watch your video essays. The drama has never voiced itself to my ears and hah the demonization is lame and makes me uncomfortable. Just wanted to say that there are some ppl that know nothing about the drama and still think highly of you
I'd been pretty minimally involved on Twitter but Lindsay's cancellation got me to quit it entirely. It makes me sad that people just jump on to things like this without thinking, and has definitely made me more cautious about how and when I comment on things. Also, I definitely bought Lindsay's first book because I've followed her on UA-cam for years and was curious. And I loved it. I don't usually read sci-fi but it was fantastic. I've preordered the second book because I loved the first.
As an elected official in a very small town in rural Northern California, this entire podcast rings true for what public, successful women face all the time and all across the country. And, with bitter irony, I hesitated to post this comment because I know the internet trolls will come for me. But they are coming for me anyhow. If not for this comment then very much for something else.
At the risk of immediately being dismissed and de-personed as “an internet troll,” what particular Issues do women face in terms of criticism that men in political office or the public eye do not? Keep in mind we’re about five years into constant abuse concerning Donald Trump’s weight and hair and skin tone.
@@billbadson7598 Thanks for bringing this up. Mitch McConnell's neck is not something that should EVER be mentioned in the same paragraph as disagreeing with his politics or tactics. DT's tie or hair or difficulties with ramps are NOT THE GODDAMNED POINT if you don't like his politics. I can't calculate whether or not it is worse for women. But rather than assuming it is (or isn't) it would be good to a) study it statistically and b) stop it. "You are not telling the truth" is not equivalent to "you're funny looking".
@@billbadson7598 there’s actually reverse sexism when it comes to men. Look how the media made fun of Governor Christie’s weight when he ran for President. The media would never dare saying that about an obese female politician.
@@chrisolivo6591 _"there’s actually reverse sexism when it comes to men."_ Thank you for your affirmation, but please don't ever call anything "reverse sexism." There is "sexism" and there is "not-sexism." Treating men worse due to their sex is not "reverse sexism." It's just sexism, and the people who do it are just sexists. Same with racism.
Sadly, to some, that doesn't matter. There are people out there who will perceive any form of criticism of a work that includes POC characters, regardless of what the criticism itself addresses, to automatically be a hate narrative against the race or races in question. The sad thing is that this can result in some people who witness these reactions then becoming apathetic to actual valid race issues that matter.
@@JockoJonson17 It's a kids' movie, but many producers insert jokes and messages meant for older viewers to prevent massive boredom -- and I think someone sneaked just a little too much Protestant Christianity into this script.
it must be so hurtful and disheartening to have to feel detached just to survive emotionally. So unfair what Lindsay has been put through. I'm sorry, Lindsay
She actively worked to get other creators removed for almost a little as she was attacked for. The most recent round of this behavior happened less than a month ago, so she clearly didn't learn anything from her trauma. What she got was karma.
16:25 "How can you make content for people that you're kind of afraid of?" Congratulations, internet. You built the wall and Lindsay Ellis paid for it.
I’ve been following Lindsey for 10 years. I did a lot of film studies classes and when I was done with college she helped me deal with life after college. I’m just want to be her friend and give her a hug. She’s the coolest person ever.
The UA-cam algorithm must suck because I didn't discover Lindsay Ellis until late 2022 even though I watch many creators and videos like hers. I'm pretty sad that I can't look forward to her videos, but I'll watch all of her old ones. I feel genuinely sorry for her.
I am so happy to see my two faves collaborating once again! Lindsay's whole situation left such a bad taste in my mouth that I wound up leaving twitter for a few months. I was watching professional contacts just join in on the roast, happy to dunk on the main character of the day. It did not make me feel great about my industry, I'll tell you that. I think something I've noticed with ~lefttube~ is that some of the more high-profile creators such as Natalie and Lindsay, who never designated themselves to represent this side of UA-cam nor asked to rank highly amongst its viewers, receive vitriol from hordes of people who think they don't deserve it or that their influence is unfair. They are desperate to knock down the creators they deem unworthy of the power they hold, to the point that they will find any bad faith read and put it on blast to topple them. It's gross. Thank you for taking the time to discuss this toxic issue and not dismissing it, as many do.
@@locutusdborg126 I'd argue Tiktok is the only one of those platforms where the primary demographic is teenagers. Instagram and Twitter started out with people my age, give or take, and in my experience, most of the people driving this culture are in their late teens and early- to mid-20s.
I'm ready to talk about the growing trend of false allegations for clout and making up lies/twisting the truth to make a small mistake a horrible abuse. The public cannot be trusted to execute justice when they are only doing it to seek social capital. Full stop.
I just realized...I don't think I ever learned how to simply dislike someone. It always seemed mean to dislike someone without cause. and subsequently I don't know how to handle the idea of other people disliking me for no reason. For context I was on FaceBook and Tumblr at like 12 years old and grew up on the internet.
Disliking someone can be hard, especially if you don't know them and on social media you rarely do know them. With youtube at least I found it easier to dislike content and separate that from the creator, who I didn't know. I remember watching random videos I wouldn't be interested in as a way to do this. Like see if you can find some super dry lecture on something you're not interested in or just isn't aimed at you like a high level maths lecture (sorry if this is a bad example), and see how you feel about the presenter. Do you like or hate them 'cos of the video? I mean, probably not, you're probably just bored. And it's OK to just be bored or not interested in content. I think that helped me sorta catch myself and really reflect on how I felt about a creator or their content, not get caught up so much. But though I grew up on the internet I was super private on FB/tumblr. Anyway, sorry, random comment but it seemed like maybe a helpful strat :P
@Lesley Age 12 is a pretty important period in regards to socialization, so I think that makes sense. I was at that age as well; for the most part, I imagine it affects how you frame things in your head, yanno? Especially coupled with how in spaces that attempt to be "inclusive" end up trying so hard that you need a reason to exclude someone from your circle, what you end up with is more and more morality-oriented reasons to not want to interact with someone. In the end, since this period lays foundation for the rest of your life... It absolutely can be changed, but it does require actively challenging it. I wish you the best, Kaity, you're not alone in this journey either.
This is just heartbreaking. I miss Lindsay - I like her well researched insights in film and always look forward to the content she creates. I do not understand the level of vitriol she recieved.
For what it's worth, it may help to remember that twitter is largely its own microcosm of no redeeming value - while I'm not trying to give the "just log off" "advice", I do think it's worth remembering that a significant portion of your audience doesn't engage through the cesspool that is Twitter. I personally had no idea anything had happened until the "mask off" video because none of this was visible or "trending" in any meaningful way elsewhere.
I've weaved in and out with watching her channel over the years as I don't always have information on the topics she covers. However, people who do long, thoughtful video essays on subjects don't really tend to do or say things with intended malice without having more thought behind the comment. So, when I saw the video up about her being shoved off Twitter, I knew it was likely bullshit. Not saying someone who does videos such as hers can't say something genuinely heinous, but I'd heard enough about how Twitter operates to take a good guess that this was just a malicious desire to topple someone big and pat themselves on the back, drunk on their power. And whaddya know...I was 100% right. As such, even when given the full breadth of being able to explain oneself here on UA-cam, few of her detractors commented on the video, because they knew they no longer had a leg to stand on when the fight was brought to her ground, where long, thoughtful discussions are able to be made here. No one has made a thoughtful video essay in her style countering her comments and why it was necessary to remove her from Twitter. That alone says everything. Her being attacked on Twitter wasn't about genuinely removing someone who is harmful in their rhetoric, it was about feeling like you can and should have the power to "cancel" anyone you so want and the nuance of the other person's point means nothing. A discussion was never the point, just a hive-minded mob whos wanted to destroy. Lindsey will continue to flourish though. She's not been cancelled or silenced. Thank you, TFD, for bringing her on the show.
it was actually Lindsay's videos on this channel that lead me to her own and i fell in love with her content. She is hilarious and witty, and i hate when dickheads jump on the bandwagon of bringing someone down. It sucks that it happened to her.
I hope Lindsay Does a virtual book tour. Maybe do two videos where the first one can be talking about her first book. The second interview about her newest book, and a third interview question and answer by her fans related to her books and writing process. She could even have Princess do the interview. Do like a free book give away with a signed copy by having her her fans promote her work through social media via Tik tok and Instagram. Besides that it’s good to see Lindsay opening up to us more about her mindset post her cancellation scenario. Chelsea is getting better and better at these open ended questions in her interview series. The financial aspect of this was interesting coming from a creative perspective, individual, and as a business owner. Another great interview.
Yeah the whole argument of "well she still made money out of it so it's fine" is bollocks. Let's even avoid putting reputation on the equation, just consider the emotial damage and stress. Imagine someone running over you with a car and ending in the hospital, you sue them and get a ton of money and someone goes "Oh, you got a ton of money so it's no biggie". Doesn't make a lot of sense to me, it may be less damaging but it's not "OK".
I wish people could just agree to disagree. You don’t have to agree with Lindsay. But I still don’t get why everyone came for her throat like calm down. People will never all agree so y’all need to grow up and learn that period.
I see many people bitching about how this whole debacle hasn't actually hurt Lindsay at all because she got a bunch of new patrons out of it, but all of them deliberately ignore the psychological toll it's taken on her and I'd argue material loss was never even the goal. cancellation (at least this one) isn't about making people lose money, it's about isolating them, beating them down and demotivating them to the point of disappearing off the face of the internet and on that front I think Lindsay's cancellation was sadly successful. look at how cynical and pessimistic she is. she said it yourself she would quit if she didn't have employees depending on her and I fear that her content will suffer from now on. she might even actually quit after some time and somewhat selfishly I'm very sad because I find her videos to be extremely educative and entertaining. can't blame her though.
@@whoknows9085 If you watch said video about being cancelled, you will find out that the experience forced her to relive one of the worst things that's ever happened to her, and you will be able to see her reliving it _again_ in real time, which... yeah, indicates a pretty significant psychological toll.
I like Lindsey's videos and I stand by her. This hypersensitivity to rather mundane comments is ridiculous. You don't like her comments, then move on. She is not for everyone.
“I was cancelled and now believe in trickle-down economics” lmfao SERIOUSLY it drives me nuts when people say they “left the left” because of the behavior of people on the left rather than their actual social and economic values
I don't. Part of politically organizing especially as an influencer is hanging out in spaces that involve and have those who've canceled you. Let's face it-the left is increasingly beginning to value and cancel people at alarming rates. If the majority of leftists believe in cancel culture, it becomes the values of the left. And if the right says it doesn't believe in cancel culture and wants to fight against it and claim that is THEIR social value? Its real attractive and had I not been more politically informed I certainly would have fell for it. The behavior of the left is reflective of what they value. They are not disconnected.
@@objectiverational2363 Nah. First of all, a lot of the people who piled on that Twitter bandwagon aren't on the Left. They see a political enemy weakened and pile on. Secondly, there are extremists in any political group. There are times when the extreme elements of the culture can dominate the whole party. Like obviously the Alt Right nationalism became very prevalent in the last administration. But I don't see Biden out there calling for the cancellation of Lindsay Ellis, lol. The Left certainly isn't immune to radicalization and moralizing. But participating in Twitter circle-jerks is certainly not something most of us are interested in. We're fighting for education, health care, and fair wages. We don't really have time for that nonsense. Unlike the Right, we have actual work to do.
Exactly. I came to my political, economic and ideological beliefs after a lot of study and thought. These are things I genuinely believe. I’m not going to change my deeply held beliefs because some of the people who share the same/similar belief happen to be arseholes. Arseholes abound everywhere. That doesn’t change the whys or hows of my beliefs. I think the “I left the left” grifters are exactly that, or they’re supremely easily suggestible and they weren’t deeply held beliefs to begin with. Either they had those beliefs because because they went with the flow and never thought deeply about them all that much, or they didn’t hold those beliefs, and just pretended to. I do think that of the former, that’s more likely to happen with liberals- leftism generally requires a bit more thought and education (mostly because it’s not well represented in mainstream media, you have to search it out). I also haven’t seen many actual leftists do the right wing grift thing. I’ve seen a lot of “liberals” do it though. Sis they “leave the left”? Not really, they left the centre, economically speaking. But I do get what Lindsay was saying about those who are easily suggestible, and who clung to their new right wing friends because they were nice. But I think they would have been easily suggested into liberal beliefs to begin with, if that makes sense?
@@katherinemorelle7115 If you really think, that your socio-political and economic beliefs are not influenced by your social environment, then you are either one in a million or you are deluding yourself - and I know where my money would be. Being 'cancelled' over some minor infraction and shunned by your usual social in-group does a number on anyone. If you are then being accepted by a new social environment it's totally normal to being more receptive to their argument and to be more conforming. So why would it not be normal, to have your political and economic beliefs altered by this over time?
A quote that resonated with me that I remember hearing from Jordan Peterson. “In order to be able to think, you have to risk being offensive.” What ever you believe, do, or say, someone out there will be offended. It’s usually fine, even healthy, to be offended sometimes, but it goes right down hill the moment someone starts harassing people because of their hurt feelings. People like Lindsay are put down just so someone sitting at a keyboard can feel like they have the moral high ground. It’s just sad.
She's an amazing film critic, and has also done some great work for PBS's "It's Lit", and written a book that's been well-received (but I haven't read it). If you're looking for some of her best stuff, I'd recommend her LOTR and Hobbit reviews.
Honestly, this was therapeutic. I was “canceled” at my college and have no idea how to begin to process it. I had to move home cause I had no support system and everyone I knew was against me and distanced themselves from me. I have felt so alone throughout this time and I am embarrassed to talk about it so seeing someone else that has experienced this has been very healing. Thank you
I was about to ask you: "What happened that got you canceled?" But that's not fair and too intrusive to even ask. So I am going to say, I am sorry everyone turned on you and that you lost your support, and that two years later, I hope you are in a better place.
The paperback AND hardcover versions were both available in germany right from the start, to make it even more confusing. (english version still, to be clear)
It’s called “bad faith.” That shit thrives around cowardice. We all let this bullshit happen. Lindsay looks tired. I hate this place. Sorry you went through all that. Hope they didn’t ruin her I’ve been a fan for like 8 years.
i close my twitter in november, and i thought i would come back so soon, because it is in fact very addictive. But here i am, two months later and not using twitter…i kind of feel better now.
If it makes anyone feel better, it's estimated over a third of all internet users are bots. Numbers are superficial. Even if you connect with someone in a meaningful way, you never know who you are really talking to unless you meet them face to face. People say things on the internet that they never would get away with in real life. Skepticism is healthy. Follow your intuition.
Lindsay's Mask Off video made me really rethink how I was engaging with Twitter, and then a few weeks ago I just logged off due to complicated reasons. I really felt that "brain does not know what to do" feeling. I would just instinctively open up the site for a week afterwards, and even now, I feel uncomfortable with the empty space of when I would normally be on Twitter. But I only found this video through Twitter, so I guess make of that what you will lol
I had plenty of bad faith readings of what was intended to be lighthearted smalltalk on Twitter (not even about politics, but technology and comedy), but I still don't manage to quit it. Unfollowed a few people, though.
I don't have Twitter--and stuff like this makes me glad I don't--so I had no idea this happened to Lindsay until I saw her Mask Off video. I also keep wondering how people had the time to go digging through years and years of tweets. Like...get a (healthier) hobby? Do they not have jobs or school?
I'm not familiar with Lindsay's work and am only just a recent subscriber to TFD. I wish Lindsay the best and can tell from her can-do attitude with respect to promoting her books that she will overcome the emotional toll of the bullying. Stay strong and rock on Lindsay!
To be honest, to me this is the most stupid cancellation I have ever seen, I do not agree with everything Lindsay says, and at times I disagree really hard, but I still find the whole situation absurd. Great video Chelsea!! I hope Lindsay recovers from this stupid situation, she is a great creator.
Watching this a year later and my first thought is, "I wonder if or when we get to see conversations with Lindsay that aren't about the cancelation anymore." My next thought we "these dogpiling Twitter assholes robbed me of any future Lindsay content."
lindsay's story and her "mask off" video is why I don't post much on social media. People ask why and I tell them Social Media is such a toxic environment that it's effecting mental health. Last year made it so much worse because people got hatey while being stuck at home. It's horrible that I'm preventing my growth because I'm seeing all these horrible stories that shouldn't happen. :/
I lose sleep at night when one a-hole attacks me online. I cannot fathom what a dog pile of this magnitude feels like. And it is absolutely preventing people from being creative or constructive in online spaces! I am too worried about my digital footprint to say or do anything interesting on social media.
I looked up her reason of being cancelled is bc her comments towards Raya and the last dragon??? She's not the only person who thought the universe was a huge reminder of atla (even frozen 2 got compared to avatar) Disney writers are being less and less creative and they deserve to get those critics
She was never actually canceled. She said a lot of insensitive things to poc, and instead of apologizing she doubled down and left twitter for a while herself And then some time lass and she comes out with these "i was canceled" stories
@@whoknows9085 This. This whole thing would have been a none incident if she had just said, sorry, I spoke naively and didn't mean it that way. I apologize. Instead she doubled down and went further. Just don't do that. I mean its not hard. I did it recently when I attacked Rob Liefield for being a crap artist with no value, but a really good artist replied and said his art influenced them and they were actually really amazing. I apologized, said I still didn't like him as an artist but respect that he had a positive influence on their art.
Not sure if Lindsey read comments or even if her team does but I hope she knows not everyone cancels someone. I love your content whether I agree with your take or not. Your a great content creator and media critic. I really hope you can mentally and emotionally overcome the actions of a few rotten apples. And know that there a whole group of fan waiting for your return and cheering for you.
Keeping off of social media is so much better for your mental health. I can’t imagine doing a job where you’re kinda required to be in the space. Lindsey clearly didn’t deserve what happened to her. But I became a patron of hers because of it. She seemed like an interesting voice in this space.
It’s fantastically wonderful - and brave - that you ladies did this. Wow. I’m so impressed. Cancelation is deplorable, and yes, there will be life afterwards. Bravo and thank you!!
I'm glad we're finally having this discussions about what social media affect us in so many levels. Not to mention that the fact that online harassment has gone this bad is itself the consequence of not taking it seriously a decade or two decades ago when it wasn't at this level. A very serious discussion on how to make online spaces safe for everyone is long overdue and it is time for actions to be taken to ensure that.
Congratulations Lindsay on your second book coming out! You should be very proud of your success. You've been making funny, insightful commentary for years and releasing it for free. I know you've been a net positive to my life. Thank you TFD for using this platform to call out bad faith "cancellations."
Social media is such a mixed bag. It has given a voice to the previously voiceless-but then you have unwarranted dogpiles like what happened to Lindsay which makes me want to rage quit every app. We really have to re-examine how we use social media and to what end.
I think the best example of this type of cancellation not being in good faith is the number of tweets saying, "can't wait for Jenny Nicholson to tweet something bad so that we can cancel her too" when she had not done anything wrong yet. Like clearly these cancellations are no longer about holding people accountable but are instead about tormenting people we don't personally like.
This.
Yeah, it's basically like shorting stocks but for people
I can see how this type of "cancellation" can be used politically and thus would upend what we think of as social media
They never were about accountability in the first place.
@@jmwvirgil I disagree. When talking about exposing Racism/White Supremacy very rarely, if ever, are the people who practice it are held accountable this is just a very weak attempt at that. Saying that what happened to Lindsay wasn't an example of what I'm talking about.
The creators of Raya admitting and encouraging comparisons with ATLA is the icing on this shit cake
This conversation confirms for me that Lindsay is different now, and it makes me so sad. It's like seeing your favourite teacher arrive for class one day looking beaten down and like they want to give up because of your shitty classmates.
I've seen this happen to a few of my high school teachers (and some youtubers) and it's really sad.
I know a lot of ex-teachers, though usually they're broken down and quitting due to bureaucracy.
@@jenniferr8394 I'm one of them but now I have my joy back
Yeah, happened to a lot of teachers I was taught by
It was so sad hearing her say she doesn't trust her audience on UA-cam 😭 seeing a person be so changed that they can't share their talents, just shocking
I didn't even know she went through all that until her UA-cam video. I love her work and she is a great creator. I hope she keeps going but 1 million percent would get it if she stopped tomorrow.
Same❤
Same
As a mixed race person, I never understood cancellation culture for the purposes of someone’s respectful critique of a film/piece of art. Two things can be true at the same time: A film can be really well made and happen to be created by and be about a person/people of color and their experience, and on the flip side a film/artwork can also not be that well made and be about / created by a person/people of color. I would venture to say (and hope) the race of the artist shouldn’t matter. The critique is simply based on the quality of the art. 💁🏽♀️
Same. I do not have Twitter, so this came out of left field to me
Me too. I can't see anyone watching Lindsey's content and thinking she's a baddie
“People have lost the ability to simply dislike someone else without framing it ‘I’m doing the world some good.” 25:30
I’ve noticed this in even smaller scale interactions with “friends” I’ve made on the internet. The moment you have a falling out, they take to Twitter to subtweet about what a secret narcissist you are and then every time they feel like it they bring you up in a negative connotation. In the real world, you just move on with your life.
such a brilliant point, my mind was blown when she made it
*cough cough* That's exactly what Mara Wilson does with Lindsay.
I did notice it with a friend who was an offline and became a strictly online friend in the last 2 years. I guess it’s the fact they can’t look you in the eyes makes them feel like they have the right to act like that. She has different opinions about society and even I went “you think this, I think that, we have different opinions, that’s it” - she started an Instagram stories version of subtweeting 🤦🏻♀️
I also dislike the pathologizing, just because you dislike someone and think they are egotistical or self centered doesn't mean they are narcissistic and even if they were why weaponize their mental health against them? It's so annoying, just move on.
I don't see this as a new thing, I am familiar with that mindset since primary school basically. "Either you are with me or you're enemy" kind of thing. I've observed it in girl cliques preschool
Edit: not saying this is good, just nothing new
The whole concept of "You can't get defensive or you're wrong" is so fucking manipulative. People should be allowed to defend themselves against accusations of things they never did. It's just a way to attack people and expect them to just take it no matter what.
Yes, exactly! "If hearing this makes you feel defensive, you should think about why/how that may be a sign that it's true" - uh, no it isn't. If I call someone, say, a liar it will hurt them, especially if they aren't a liar. As a reaction they might withdraw, get defensive, get aggressive, whatever their reaction to being hurt might be. None of this makes my accusations true.
Except Ben Shapiro
@@anitabonghit2758 As far as I know he doesn't defend himself, because he is of the opinion that just sharing his opinion is not something someone would ever have to be defensive about. So your comment makes no sense.
@@armoredp you'd be surprised how little credit or leeway people will give someone like ben shapiro just because he's willing to speak his mind and opinion with cited sources.
I'm not a fan of ben shapiro, but most people who hate him just hate him because he thinks differently than them. Can't have that! lol
This whole thing is like a rididulous parody of medieval witch hunts. Confess or you're guilty.
I would love for you guys to do a video on the costs of being disabled
That would be awesome!
Great idea!
AGREED
Or having chronic illness
Yes! Would be great.
The funny thing is that A LOT of people including Asian Americans/Canadians, Asian immigrants, pretty much any other reviewer in UA-cam including Spanish UA-cam, saw the similarities between Raya and ATLA
And there are definitely many, many books/films/TV shows in the "Airbender-like" subgenre that don't have Asian characters (e.g. Dragon Prince).
I mean they do have similarities..? I still remember people on Raya's trailer youtube video said the same thing and I agree, but I love both
Yeah, and omgosh I never saw the tweets in question but I thought I was the only one who thought the same about Soul. So sorry this happened to Lindsay, so unfair.
It's a HUGE trend in YA fantasy and not just in Asian fiction. Children of Blood and Bone, for example, is Avatar in Africa. The author even admits it. And let's not even talk about the plague of Zuko knockoffs...
@hasslfoot Adding to that, in my own experienced as a mixed race person, most people are not approaching cancellations of this nature having had any meaningful conversation with a person who belongs to the community they are attempting to defend. Instead, the content of their sermons tends to be derived third hand from internet communities that are little more than insular echo chambers. The problem with this is that the people who belong to these communities do not comprise a monolith and what offends one person may not offend a majority of others. Another problem is that it often results in the silencing of minorities in conversations about them, and the people getting most offended are almost always white, cisgender and heterosexual. They are not generally questioning whether the opinion they are jumping on board with is even reflective of real world attitudes toward the subject at hand, whether it does any actual harm; and these online communities have a tendency to intimidate the dissent into silence, even among those who belong to the communities in question. Given that, it's my belief that almost all cancellations are in bad faith, and that the culture surrounding them is more often harmful to minorities than helpful, as our voices tend to be silenced in favor of our white, cisgender and heterosexual peers.
SO, the cancelling of Ms. Ellis was one of the stupidest things I have ever seen on the internet. I saw the tweets. I looked at all of the responses to it. I didn't/don't understand how people created the takes that they had on the situation. Anyway, I'm looking forward to the new book!
She made an audience out of hyper liberals and is suprised they do what they do.
I feel so bad for her, you can tell it really affected her mentally. She's visibly uncomfortable. Those who did this for such an insignificant comment should evaluate their actions, if you can feel satisfaction from bringing someone down in this way, to effectively bully them into almost quitting their career then there's something very very wrong.
I wish her all the best and I fear for the state of discourse in the world moving forward, this is not how we are going to have a more egalitarian, free and just society. It's only going to create more hatred, more division. Which we are already seeing time and time again. Scary...
Her latest little mermaid video was so ... tired. you could just feel her exhaustion. It made me so sad.
These people who "cancel" on stupid things, non-issues, are just miserable and bored so much with their life that they go and shit on legitimate creators and nice people just to satisfy their empty souls. Once you go in, it's hard to get out because there;s a temporary filling of the void, like when you buy something then you get bored.
great first step!
now relaize how many people who you consider to be "devils" (meaning politically center and further to the right) were cancelled before her, and nobody bat an eye, because to you guys, they're not people.
"to effectively bully them into almost quitting their career then there's something very very wrong. "
it's an absolutely standard practice used (and possibly also invented, in its current form) by leftists and progressives.
does that mean you have just admitted there's something very very wrong with leftism and progressivism?
because I would agree.
Yes something has changed not trying to be a bit polite
More of lynch mob society
Where in rural communitys
Here in missouri 100 years ago you you could be decided guilty by mob of neighbors and hanged
This swing societies take makes US achievements
Over last 100-300 years
Quite scary radicalization
We will be no better than third world countries /or this authoritarian military control stuff
I fear for my kids and grandkids future
And I'm white
I know blacks still are being persecuted
Hope I'm wrong but don't have a good feel of gerrymandering to control votes more gun rights less womens rights
We are going backward not forward as a society
I 60 yr single female farm owner know 50 yr old male neighbors think i have no place in farming
no one friendly any more out for them selves towns city's much worse on multiplied scale
None of it good
@@MidnightSt you seem to forget decades of right wing radio/television villifying and abusing progressives - or anyone else that was deemed an appropriate target. Invented by leftists = absolutely false. It's absolute gaslighting to suggest that the alt-right media conglomerate is somehow a victim because people push back against disinformation.
It's ridiculous that she gets cancelled for making the connection between ATLA and Raya. Then Honest Trailers does their video doing the same comparison for laughs.
@Rinny literally the comments under the raya teaser & trailer are speaking of ATLA!
I think the complete nonsense of the whole thing was exposed by how much of a nothing tweet it was. I’d already made a “Raya and the Last Airbender” joke, the minute I heard about the plot. The fact that so many people thought this exact thing, yet she got dog piled for what was both true and not even offensive, just shows that it was people who wanted to go after her in particular.
Lindsay even says that in this video- if it wasn’t that tweet, it would have been something else. Because it wasn’t actually about the tweet, or the thought behind the tweet- it was about her. Which was made even clearer by how no one else was “cancelled”, even though so many people thought and said the exact same thing, usually in a far less sensitive way.
Also compared or being a reminisce to atla: frozen 2
But i don't see the pitchforks and torches hurled around.. besides, she's not the only one who thought (and tweeted) about the similarities
@@katherinemorelle7115 it’s ridiculous gatekeeping and some sort of idea that if something *could* mean something important to anyone, any and all critique are therefore an attack of the entirety of the film and an attack on the fans. It’s the death of intelligent debate.
its disingenuous to act like this was exclusively over this single raya/atla comparison and not a list of bigoted shit that she deflected in the same manner every time. thats why this comment blew up in the first place- not because that comment was the most horrible thing she could have said, because she had already said a ton of weird shit and refused to take accountability for it each time, and people were fed up
TFD is trend setting with these videos lately that are more restorative and real and I am loving it.
Oh yeah, TFD is making the content I didn't know I wanted.
I have been a fan of Lindsey Ellis since the dark days of yore. Way back in the channel awesome days. Her brand has evolved over the years, but has always been consistent. Sometimes I agree with her opinions sometimes not, but I will not stand anyone talking shite about her ever. Get out of here with that nonsense.
Since The Nostalgia Chick's review of Pocahontas I never missed an upload
@@fostena yes!!!! She thrived, in spite of nostalgia critic, not because of.
Same I've been watching since 2011. I had the pleasure to meet her and hang out a little bit at a con and she's very nice and down to earth. She's just a person. Sometimes she makes mistakes. So does literally everyone. Harassing someone for their flaws is ridiculous
Cosigned. I remember when she won the contest.
Yes I love her stuff but yes I don’t always agree. You can engage without agreeing 100%!
I am Southeast Asian and I don't find anything offensive from her remarks and comparison between Avatar the Last Airbender, and Raya and the Last Dragon. I saw both animé and her analysis is correct. There are a lot of similarities between the two animé/animation. 'COZ BOTH ARE BASED ON THE AMALGATION OF DIFFERENT ASIAN CULTURE, MYTHS AND LITERATURE!!! (i.e. the representation and personification of the main four elements, dragons, division of nations, etc.) I bet the fake/overblown outrage was primarily from non-asian people.🙄 This was not even in my radar or on radar of my asian friends, colleagues and family. 🤷🏻♀️
Same! Had no idea this happened to her until i watched her video. But I'm also not on Twitter?
I do remember from her video that she said it was a lot of white people telling her she "needs to listen to poc"
Also southeast Asian, and I have no idea what people were offended over....it's like people try to twist everything into the most negative perspective possible. So over white people telling POC when they should be offended over comments about their own culture.
Yeah but don’t you want people whitesplaining why you should be offended?! Apparently they exist to make the world a better place but that doesn’t imply any sort of conversation 😣
Agreed! I’m also SE Asian and took zero offence to her comment. The movie is a mix of all Asian cultures - literally everything from the way the dressed, the food they ate, and the idea of dragons, etc. Anyone who knows the basics of Asian cultures can see that. Twitter just tries to cancel people to validate themselves.
SE Asian as well, twitter is a toxic place that is just … ugh..not all movies or creative pieces are going to hit people the same and that’s ok! Just because she saw it was a copy of the Last airbender doesn’t make it a bad thing. I mean… unless you didn’t like that masterpiece.
Great interviewing from Chelsea. She knew exactly when to give her own experiences without talking other the guest like some other podcasts
Exactly!
I would be surprised if Lindsay is reading these comments, but if she is (or if someone is reading on her behalf): I am so sorry that this happened to you. The mob attacking you was far too much, your commentary in those two recent tweets was nothing bad, and you feeling forced to recount your assault was horrific. Take care.
@hasslfoot as others have mentioned in the comment section - honest trailers blatantly compared the two.
I really hope she heals better and stronger after this, can't imagine it.
she has admitted to never reading comments. just tweets.
She became a victim of the same monster she supported. No sympathy
I had to leave Twitter entirely because I could feel how it was warping my mind, turning my cultivating political and personal beliefs into pure performance. I consider myself a thoughtful and considerate person so it was hard to admit that to myself and delete the app entirely for my own well-being. These social mechanisms are powerful and until they are changed in massive, maybe not always profitable, ways, they will continue to produce sludge. Lindsay, I guarantee that this hatred only exists in the toxic ecosystem of Twitter, which is such a small percentage of your fanbase. That being said I know how hard it is to recognize that mentally. Anyways, Lindsay and Chelsea are incredibly smart and thoughtful, entertaining people in social media apps that simply do not deserve them LOL... that being said, we benefit as a freakin SOCIETY from the work you do.
Honestly I left for a similar reason last year and it took me a while to find my equilibrium again. What an awfil place Twitter is.
I never got into Twitter, I have Tumblr to waste my time and brainpower and it gives me all the drama I could crave (usually pointless hilarious drama like shipping wars) and it's a lot easier to curate your experience on Tumblr (thank you Tumblr Savior!). I do have a twitter account but I am so careful about who I follow and the kind of things I seek out. Mostly I'm interested in art and artists!
But god yeah, it can be so toxic and the culture around it is scary.
I'm still on Twitter, but I'm a train buff, so follow mostly train stuff. And even if I disagree, I tend to be very polite about it, so I have rarely experienced a pile on. But yeah, I try to steer clear of most toxic discussions...
I resonate with that. I left Twitter a couple years ago (I logged in a couple times since then just to see what was goin on lol but never anything really new), I do miss the memes and the jokes, but my biggest problem is that I couldn’t scroll an inch without accidentally reading something that was either annoying or upsetting… that part I do not miss haha
I left Twitter when I realized it was making me pointlessly angry. I also felt shocked when I was called a b*tch for suggesting someone not be so harsh about a random person on the Bachelorette. It’s a choice to subject yourself to stuff that mean. I’ve never missed it!
You know what’s actually crazy? I’m a huge TLA fan and when I saw The Raya movie and a trailer I honestly thought about TLA. I was like woah this is so similar so it’s crazy to me that she pointed out something completely rational.
THE ONLY THING people were commenting about when the trailer came out was the ATLA similarities.
A *lot* of critics and commentators were making jokes lime "Raya the Last Dragonbender" weeks before Lindsay made her comment. 'Honest Trailers' made that joke, and got millions of likes with almost no dislikes.
Nobody had an issue with the comparison until Lindsay said it.
One was made by white people, the other had Asian creators more involved
I guess you're racist too..
yeha that's the ridiculous thing. I mean, it wasn't even a hot take, it was practically refrigerated for crying out loud.
I’m totally sick of the mindset some people online have, where your intention doesn’t matter at all, and you’re forced to apologize if something you said or did was taken in the most out of context or bad faith way, something no normal person would assume you meant from what you actually said, and then the apology isn’t accepted anyway and the not offensive incident is held against you for all eternity. What do these people even want? Is it just about feeling morally superior to someone who made a tiny perceived transgression? Lol get a life!!
They really must have no life
It is 100% about feeling superior by knocking someone down. Some people don't know how to self esteem and think they have to sacrifice others at the alter in order to feel better about themselves.
@@tinabean713 the sad thing is they don't even know that's what they're doing.
Bullies have an extremely hard time recognizing that they're bullies. especially if that behavior is normalized in their environment.
26:37 Lindsay explains so well why demanding an apology works to distance and spotlight the “wrongdoer”, forcing them to perform for profile (profile-building or profile-repair), rather than create an atmosphere of reconciliation that feels genuine to both parties. It’s less about connection and more to do with control. EDIT: a reply in the comments pointed something out that I agreed with; i think there are spaces for requiring an apology. it’s a little more nuanced. here, i think there’s distinction of medium/context of social media: lindsay pointed out an outcome of demanding an apology online/on social media, mediums with profile-building as an ultimate end (medium=message), which can facilitate disingenuous interactions, rather than build a bridge between two parties (it’s weird, could it be two parties if it’s an individual or a few individuals against the disseminated masses?).
Just had to timestamp for myself. Loved this talk
I think there could be a legit place for requiring an apology? We don't like cognitive dissonance, so at least some people forced to apologise will then genuinely change their minds.
It's a very parental thing to do, though, and so very problematic outside of very specific contexts.
This is such a good comment, including the edit. If anyone is interested, I highly recommend the book "We Will Not Cancel Us" which explores "cancellations" in left-wing twitter and activist communities in more depth, from an abolitionist POV.
This comment makes me think of a few things.
Firstly is profilicity, which your partly explaining/talking about and might be interested in researching further.
The second, seems less related but its that obsession with a safety creates sickness.
@@little_flitter right, I've recently learned about profilicity this month! Been watching the videos of prof. hans georg-moeller from carefree wandering channel, perhaps you're familiar already with them. I'll have to look into your second point, which i already have a feeling of agreement with. obsession with safety reminds me of an overarching obsession with or identification with an ideology. Edit: Wasn’t typing too carefully and wrote Prolificity instead of Profilicity haha...
It hurts to see how much this disrupted her mental health. Makes me want to get a couple of PhD s and pioneer social media/influencer counseling.
I feel like you should check out Dr. K, he talks with a lot of content creators about mental health and it’s very heartwarming to see people in that position feel safe enough to express their vulnerabilities
@@saraalemayehu7951 that's healthygamer right?? Just checking cause I recently came across him and love his stuff!
To op - do it. 100% do it. As social media grows, we are only going to need it more.
@@little_flitter Yes!!
You should do it! Almost all Content Creators suffer mentally for their art. Too many people take it for granted.
Social Media counseling? Its called unplug and go outside and live life.
I love Lindsay. The whole drama is BS! So many of us are on your side because we see your intention.
That's the thing, too, is that there's _such_ a pervasive attitude that people's intentions don't matter at all, and that trying to explain yourself is a malicious and self-centered refusal to take responsibility for the pain you've caused -- and then, of course, we nitpick people's sincere apologies that don't acknowledge their own intentions for word choice, tone, timing, etc. and instigate another round of demanding "accountability" if anything is wrong with those. There's no way to win except be _immaculate_ in everything that you do. And that's impossible.
Sorry for venting a little bit here on your supportive message -- I think it's just such a rarity for me to see people acknowledge good or even neutral intentions. It's nice to see, and it makes me feel a lot of things. 🙃
I'm a big fan of both TFD and Lindsay Ellis, and I sincerely appreciate the thoughtful, eye-opening discourse of this conversation. Thank you.
Idiots made Lindsay Ellis recount her sexual assault because they didn’t like a joke. She has made mistakes I understand but how did making her recount a bad and horrible time in her life solve anything?
She made a silly joke about a movie. That’s all.
I still watch her stuff and I think we should focus on the real evil people.
What mistakes? Seriously. Why are entitled rightwing people getting away with all kinds of crap and their shibboleth; those awful lefties communism around the corner or something equally monstrously idiotic and untrue don't get it.
@@evelynbaron8357 she admitted in her mask off videos that she made some videos that she was not proud of and shouldn’t have made. But she’s human. We are all human and we can only evolve. And she obviously did. That’s good. She’s put more good into the world than bad. And that is all that matters to me.
@@Beanhill_94 point taken!!! But I feel so awful when people are scapegoated in this way-- the emotional toll it's taken hard to watch.
I would like to see Lindsay’s critics have the same kind of grace in handling their mistakes in 2040, when future teens and 20 somethings will call them out for whatever dumb mistakes they’ll make today that are in bad taste 19 years from now…
@@rachel_sj
well said! This was a difficult conversation handled with grace vr much appreciate yr comment!
These last two sit down videos with Lindsay and Jamie have been so refreshing and thought-provoking that I’ve stopped the household chore I was doing while listening just to listen more closely. So my productivity is down, but my enjoyment/education is way up!
Lol, same. My sink of dishes is now cold.
Same...that laundry won't sort itself, lol. Positive vibes from New Hampshire, remember to be kind to each other and yourself
For anyone interested in “canceling”, I’d like to recommend the book So You’ve Been Publicly Shamed. It’s a great read.
I want to read this book!
Also highly recommend "We will not cancel us"
For those who can't or won't read, there is also a segment John Oliver did on public shaming that ended with a great sit down interview with Monica Lewinsky. There's also the Britney Spears documentary that just came out.
Cancelling isn't new and it isn't going away. The lowest common denominator among us loves to dogpile on anyone and everyone at the slightest provocation. Especially young women succeeding in any given field. When you see a shitstorm brewing don't jump on the bandwagon. Don't be a Diane Sawyer. Be a Craig Ferguson.
@@CitanulsPumpkin umm ok?
@@CitanulsPumpkin I haven't seen that documentary yet, but I greatly enjoyed John Oliver's episode on it. The interview with Monica was great. I can't even begin to imagine what she had to go through, but in spite of all that I think she has become a great role model for young women like myself. I have never participated in these dog piles and I don't have a Twitter account, so I find all of this fascinating (in a profoundly negative way). It's sad that it is a part of our society to do this to people.
I’m a seeing a pattern where this is primarily a twitter problem. So, as creator twitter is a liability :/
Twitter is a liability, it is also just mostly trash. The entire platform is just 20-second hot-takes from every emotional toddler on the planet. Its format literally forbids nuance, context, and deeper understanding.
Im seeing pattern with woke deranged leftists not able to agree to disagree
Mmm I think Chelsea's argument about how bad-faith cancellation is essentially just a new method of cyberbullying--that's a really interesting argument.
But it's a practice Lindsay herself has engaged in. The cancelling of JK Rowling is the most high profile bad-faith cancellation there is, rooted in sheer misogyny, and Lindsay was all too happy to jump on board. The abuse Rowling has received is horrible - it's actual cyberbullying - and Lindsay didn't have a thing to say about it at the time. In fact, she made a whole video propagating these bad faith interpretations of Rowling's words. A video from which she undoubtedly profited, through ad revenue.
Chelsea's point is a good one, but it frames Lindsay as the innocent victim of bullies, when in fact, she was a participant in a culture that was always doomed to backfire on her eventually.
I can't help but wonder how many other fans lost respect for Lindsay when she chose that path, and how it might have impacted her own eventual cancellation. In targeting her content to the type of fans who would cancel Rowling, she alienated the very same fans who would have defended her. She had left herself with only the mob, and the casual fans too afraid not to go along with the opinions of the mob. What happened next is no surprise.
@@lateralhistory Untrue. JK Rowling is choosing to actively harm people with her transphobic rhetoric despite plenty of people offering to educate her on why she was wrong. She is someone who should be cancelled. Lindsay made a comment about similarities between two movies that happen to be Southeast Asian inspired and people decided to tear her down to make themselves feel better. Huge difference.
@@lateralhistory that’s not an appropriate comparison.
JK Rowling, while she claims to care about trans people, has been arguing against policies which will advance their political rights. She has propagated regressive rhetoric, suggesting that trans youth are “convinced” that they are trans when the aren’t really (by whom??) and also suggesting that allowing trans women in women’s bathrooms would be dangerous.
Rowling has been receiving a lot of vicious harassment as well, which is wrong, and I’m sure is horrible and overwhelming. Now Lindsay could have mentioned that in her video, but that wasn’t really the topic: Lindsay was explicitly framing this as a “death of the author” discussion, because it’s something she’s talked about before. Rowling being harassed on Twitter is not germane to that, and the video was already long.
If you think that people are purposefully misinterpreting Rowling, I’d suggest watching the Contrapoints video about this. She does a good job framing what Rowling said. She is also very kind and understanding about where Rowling is coming from.
But ultimately, I maintain there is no comparison. Lindsay tweeted about two similar movies being similar. Rowling is advancing a political position, in the form of a lengthy essay. Not the same at all.
From my understanding people were more mad she called people saying the comparison between a property made by white people versus by south Asian folks isn’t that great, crazy.
@Colt Trow At no stage did Rowling say trans people don't deserve rights. You'll find it easier to find a quote where she advocates for trans rights, than you will to find anything like that.
You do see how you just proved my point, right?
Really great video. It's really disheartening to see how cynical and disillusioned this has made Lindsay feel but I don't think anyone could possibly blame her. I really enjoy her videos which are fun but also really insightful. I am really passionate about talking about media and have always been really inspired that she takes it to the level that she does with her analyses. I'm glad that she hasn't suffered financial loss due to what happened, but honestly it seems like the people doing this highly visible creative work have the most toxic work environment imaginable at times. It's not a price creators should have to pay for financial success.
Chelsea, I really liked this new video format. I'm going to check out the other one you did recently. I agree with others who said that it was an engrossing video. I was organizing my desk while watching but ended up getting caught up just watching the video and nothing else.
The problem is that cancellation usually affects people in the progressive spaces for fairly minor "transgressions" of whatever doctrine is trending act the moment and many of those people are not nearly as famous as Lindsey or Contrapoints. For them, cancellation could mean lose most of their social circle, sometimes their jobs, and of course they going to gravitate to however show them some compassion (even the right), specially after people that price themselves for being so open minded and accepting abandoned them so easily
"The problem is that cancellation usually affects people in the progressive spaces for fairly minor "transgressions""
...why progressive spaces? people in other spaces are affected from different reasons than the ones cancellation itself has built into it?
she expressed her opinion and was cancelled because higher powers didn't like the opinion.
how is it different from a centrist who expresses his opinion and is cancelled because the same higher powers didn't like that opinion?
why do you feel the need to exclude such a huge group of people, by specifygion "affects people *in progressive spaces*"?
why are you exclusionary, to all people in all other spaces?
Wait, please don't tell me that Contrapoints got cancelled too? (I deleted my twitter years ago)
Except theyre not cancelled? You cant be properly cancelled without losing your platform, and Lindsay said in the video that she hasnt had any financial backlash, has in fact increased in supporters and is seen as more sympathetic after this. She's not been harmed at all.
@@melodramatic7904 she even made a whole video about her cancelation!
@@brigidfarley6347 mostly because she is a cutural analyst/ movie reviewer that just happens to have progressive views, and her public is all over the political spectrum (ok, probably mostly in the center left, but you get the idea). When people with malicious intentions tried to cancel her by twisting her words to make her look racist, she has a lot of people to fall back, people that can see how ridiculous is the "hollier than you" actitudes or the "virtue signaling" of woke Twitter. Many small creators, minorities, or even activists doesn't have that luxury
Lindsay Ellis is so talented and has created so much amazing free content. I'm so sad that she's been treated badly and hope it doesn't kill her desire to create. I've always admired her and her work so much. Thanks for having her on the TFD channel
"Why don't you address the valid criticism?"
"Beeeecause there is none."
Lindsay. You are a queen.
“Why did you send a hate mob to attack John Boyega?” Is apparently valid
That and “I can speak over Native Americans because I have a few that said it was ok” or “Harriet should be played by a yt woman, lol I’m so funny even though this is an insensitive time to make such a joke”
Yeah how dare anyone criticize a white woman when she dismisses Asian stories as all the same.
@@dandylionsloth446 Pfft. Did she, though? I'd say you're grasping at straws but the mattress is just an empty sack at this point.
@@dandylionsloth446 Dude, a lot of creators made parodies about how similar both stories are. Pointing something like that out is not problematic at the slightest. Even if she had said she thought the movie was bad, how is that racist or problematic?
@@dandylionsloth446 What a totally bullshit take on what she said.
I hope she doesn’t give up…I didn’t even know this happened but it sounds ridiculous. This is why I hate Twitter
I found Lindsey after she was cancelled. I found it to be dumb and so I continue to subscribe to her channel. I like the long format of her videos. Video essay channels are great to watch and you don’t have to agree. The different perspectives are interesting to analyze.
Ive told others about her videos and was like "yes its as long as the actual movie, but way more enjoyable". I have gone through all of her musical theatre stuff way more than healthy. I have it on while i work
This was refreshing because we know that things like Twitter and "canceling" are so superficial so much of the time, but this was a real conversation with nuance that was ABOUT those superficial things WITHOUT being superficial itself. It's also worth mentioning that I had never heard of her or this situation before, so I have no emotional investment, but even still, I really appreciate seeing content like this which feels like a real reflection of respectful and productive conversation.
I had never watched her content and and after binging on like, 7 videos, I'm hooked. I feel bad that she went through that for this nonsense reason. I hope she recovers emotionally from this eventually.
This is why we can't have anything nice. It's such a shame that such a genuine and thoughtful commentator has been essentially chased away by a bunch of disingenuous bullies. I want Lindsay back.
She got shamed over nothing, but she tried to get other creators deplatformed over almost as little.
Poor Lindsay... I saw bits and pieces of her cancellation happen and I still do not understand it. She's a brilliant mind... it's unfortunate that intelligent people get targeted this way.
Its easy to understand. She contributed to cultivating this sociopathic toxic culture. She set this standard. Now she is upset because its happening to her and not Ben Shapiro
She tried to remove other providers for almost as little as the sin she was shamed by members of the mob she helped form. The last one was a month ago, so clearly she didn't learn anything for being on the wrong side of an attack for once.
I love Lindsay and her content. Thank you for featuring her on the channel in the past and providing her space to tell her story.
I remember Angelina tweeting that people that you both know were trashing you and your work and at the same time asking her if she was ok during all this. What shit people holy hell.
Lindsay i don’t use Twitter but i watch your video essays. The drama has never voiced itself to my ears and hah the demonization is lame and makes me uncomfortable. Just wanted to say that there are some ppl that know nothing about the drama and still think highly of you
"I don't have a self. I have a company." That hurts.
oh damn.
I'd been pretty minimally involved on Twitter but Lindsay's cancellation got me to quit it entirely. It makes me sad that people just jump on to things like this without thinking, and has definitely made me more cautious about how and when I comment on things.
Also, I definitely bought Lindsay's first book because I've followed her on UA-cam for years and was curious. And I loved it. I don't usually read sci-fi but it was fantastic. I've preordered the second book because I loved the first.
As an elected official in a very small town in rural Northern California, this entire podcast rings true for what public, successful women face all the time and all across the country. And, with bitter irony, I hesitated to post this comment because I know the internet trolls will come for me. But they are coming for me anyhow. If not for this comment then very much for something else.
At some point we will all get canceled
At the risk of immediately being dismissed and de-personed as “an internet troll,” what particular Issues do women face in terms of criticism that men in political office or the public eye do not? Keep in mind we’re about five years into constant abuse concerning Donald Trump’s weight and hair and skin tone.
@@billbadson7598 Thanks for bringing this up. Mitch McConnell's neck is not something that should EVER be mentioned in the same paragraph as disagreeing with his politics or tactics. DT's tie or hair or difficulties with ramps are NOT THE GODDAMNED POINT if you don't like his politics. I can't calculate whether or not it is worse for women. But rather than assuming it is (or isn't) it would be good to a) study it statistically and b) stop it. "You are not telling the truth" is not equivalent to "you're funny looking".
@@billbadson7598 there’s actually reverse sexism when it comes to men. Look how the media made fun of Governor Christie’s weight when he ran for President. The media would never dare saying that about an obese female politician.
@@chrisolivo6591 _"there’s actually reverse sexism when it comes to men."_
Thank you for your affirmation, but please don't ever call anything "reverse sexism." There is "sexism" and there is "not-sexism." Treating men worse due to their sex is not "reverse sexism." It's just sexism, and the people who do it are just sexists. Same with racism.
Her remark accusing "Soul" of being "pro-lifey" said absolutely nothing about the ethnicity of the characters!
Sadly, to some, that doesn't matter. There are people out there who will perceive any form of criticism of a work that includes POC characters, regardless of what the criticism itself addresses, to automatically be a hate narrative against the race or races in question. The sad thing is that this can result in some people who witness these reactions then becoming apathetic to actual valid race issues that matter.
Also wouldn't it be weird for a kids movie to be pro-abortion? Doesn't seem appropriate ...
@@JockoJonson17 It's a kids' movie, but many producers insert jokes and messages meant for older viewers to prevent massive boredom -- and I think someone sneaked just a little too much Protestant Christianity into this script.
We never deserved her. Thank you for breaking the glass ceiling for female pop culture critics online.
it must be so hurtful and disheartening to have to feel detached just to survive emotionally. So unfair what Lindsay has been put through. I'm sorry, Lindsay
She actively worked to get other creators removed for almost a little as she was attacked for. The most recent round of this behavior happened less than a month ago, so she clearly didn't learn anything from her trauma. What she got was karma.
@@garysmith9823 care to give some examples and proof of the things you're accusing her of?
I'm not. Good riddance to this terrible person.
Exactly. She was a target of the same culture she actively supported. World's smallest violin...
16:25 "How can you make content for people that you're kind of afraid of?"
Congratulations, internet. You built the wall and Lindsay Ellis paid for it.
I’ve been following Lindsey for 10 years. I did a lot of film studies classes and when I was done with college she helped me deal with life after college. I’m just want to be her friend and give her a hug. She’s the coolest person ever.
The UA-cam algorithm must suck because I didn't discover Lindsay Ellis until late 2022 even though I watch many creators and videos like hers. I'm pretty sad that I can't look forward to her videos, but I'll watch all of her old ones. I feel genuinely sorry for her.
I am so happy to see my two faves collaborating once again!
Lindsay's whole situation left such a bad taste in my mouth that I wound up leaving twitter for a few months. I was watching professional contacts just join in on the roast, happy to dunk on the main character of the day. It did not make me feel great about my industry, I'll tell you that.
I think something I've noticed with ~lefttube~ is that some of the more high-profile creators such as Natalie and Lindsay, who never designated themselves to represent this side of UA-cam nor asked to rank highly amongst its viewers, receive vitriol from hordes of people who think they don't deserve it or that their influence is unfair.
They are desperate to knock down the creators they deem unworthy of the power they hold, to the point that they will find any bad faith read and put it on blast to topple them. It's gross. Thank you for taking the time to discuss this toxic issue and not dismissing it, as many do.
Makes me glad I've not bothered with Twitter, TikTok, and Instagram.
So you are not a teenager? lol
Yep. UA-cam is enough for me.
Ok boomer
They're all hell apps, keep yourself safe by never going in them-
@@locutusdborg126 I'd argue Tiktok is the only one of those platforms where the primary demographic is teenagers. Instagram and Twitter started out with people my age, give or take, and in my experience, most of the people driving this culture are in their late teens and early- to mid-20s.
The crossover we don't deserve but desperately need
I'm ready to talk about the growing trend of false allegations for clout and making up lies/twisting the truth to make a small mistake a horrible abuse. The public cannot be trusted to execute justice when they are only doing it to seek social capital. Full stop.
Always love when Lindsay and Chelsea have a conversation! You're both amazing!
Only love for these two badass creators. Thank you to Lindsay Ellis for opening up in this conversation.
I just realized...I don't think I ever learned how to simply dislike someone. It always seemed mean to dislike someone without cause. and subsequently I don't know how to handle the idea of other people disliking me for no reason. For context I was on FaceBook and Tumblr at like 12 years old and grew up on the internet.
Disliking someone can be hard, especially if you don't know them and on social media you rarely do know them. With youtube at least I found it easier to dislike content and separate that from the creator, who I didn't know. I remember watching random videos I wouldn't be interested in as a way to do this. Like see if you can find some super dry lecture on something you're not interested in or just isn't aimed at you like a high level maths lecture (sorry if this is a bad example), and see how you feel about the presenter. Do you like or hate them 'cos of the video? I mean, probably not, you're probably just bored. And it's OK to just be bored or not interested in content. I think that helped me sorta catch myself and really reflect on how I felt about a creator or their content, not get caught up so much. But though I grew up on the internet I was super private on FB/tumblr.
Anyway, sorry, random comment but it seemed like maybe a helpful strat :P
@Lesley Age 12 is a pretty important period in regards to socialization, so I think that makes sense. I was at that age as well; for the most part, I imagine it affects how you frame things in your head, yanno? Especially coupled with how in spaces that attempt to be "inclusive" end up trying so hard that you need a reason to exclude someone from your circle, what you end up with is more and more morality-oriented reasons to not want to interact with someone. In the end, since this period lays foundation for the rest of your life...
It absolutely can be changed, but it does require actively challenging it. I wish you the best, Kaity, you're not alone in this journey either.
Lindsays back and my body has never been so F**KING READY.
Now she’s gone 😞
This is just heartbreaking. I miss Lindsay - I like her well researched insights in film and always look forward to the content she creates.
I do not understand the level of vitriol she recieved.
For what it's worth, it may help to remember that twitter is largely its own microcosm of no redeeming value - while I'm not trying to give the "just log off" "advice", I do think it's worth remembering that a significant portion of your audience doesn't engage through the cesspool that is Twitter. I personally had no idea anything had happened until the "mask off" video because none of this was visible or "trending" in any meaningful way elsewhere.
Yeah! I don't even know why she engaged with it at all. Why make a video? It was clearly just some whacko posting stuff which didn't make sense.
I've weaved in and out with watching her channel over the years as I don't always have information on the topics she covers. However, people who do long, thoughtful video essays on subjects don't really tend to do or say things with intended malice without having more thought behind the comment. So, when I saw the video up about her being shoved off Twitter, I knew it was likely bullshit. Not saying someone who does videos such as hers can't say something genuinely heinous, but I'd heard enough about how Twitter operates to take a good guess that this was just a malicious desire to topple someone big and pat themselves on the back, drunk on their power.
And whaddya know...I was 100% right. As such, even when given the full breadth of being able to explain oneself here on UA-cam, few of her detractors commented on the video, because they knew they no longer had a leg to stand on when the fight was brought to her ground, where long, thoughtful discussions are able to be made here. No one has made a thoughtful video essay in her style countering her comments and why it was necessary to remove her from Twitter. That alone says everything. Her being attacked on Twitter wasn't about genuinely removing someone who is harmful in their rhetoric, it was about feeling like you can and should have the power to "cancel" anyone you so want and the nuance of the other person's point means nothing. A discussion was never the point, just a hive-minded mob whos wanted to destroy.
Lindsey will continue to flourish though. She's not been cancelled or silenced. Thank you, TFD, for bringing her on the show.
I’m a cat person, I don’t DO dog-piles.
Hehe love this. Same. 🐱
Meee awwww
Im gay, I totally do if the guys are hot.
@@brettmastema7056 that qualifier could go with anything. I would live on a desert island, if the guys were hot.
Hey guys just want to say i support you, best of luck.
An internet Goblin.
it was actually Lindsay's videos on this channel that lead me to her own and i fell in love with her content. She is hilarious and witty, and i hate when dickheads jump on the bandwagon of bringing someone down. It sucks that it happened to her.
I hope Lindsay
Does a virtual book tour. Maybe do two videos where the first one can be talking about her first book. The second interview about her newest book, and a third interview question and answer by her fans related to her books and writing process.
She could even have Princess do the interview. Do like a free book give away with a signed copy by having her her fans promote her work through social media via Tik tok and Instagram.
Besides that it’s good to see Lindsay opening up to us more about her mindset post her cancellation scenario.
Chelsea is getting better and better at these open ended questions in her interview series. The financial aspect of this was interesting coming from a creative perspective, individual, and as a business owner.
Another great interview.
Yeah the whole argument of "well she still made money out of it so it's fine" is bollocks. Let's even avoid putting reputation on the equation, just consider the emotial damage and stress. Imagine someone running over you with a car and ending in the hospital, you sue them and get a ton of money and someone goes "Oh, you got a ton of money so it's no biggie". Doesn't make a lot of sense to me, it may be less damaging but it's not "OK".
I wish people could just agree to disagree. You don’t have to agree with Lindsay. But I still don’t get why everyone came for her throat like calm down. People will never all agree so y’all need to grow up and learn that period.
I support you, Lindsay. Love your channel and hope you can get back to feeling free to be yourself. 🌸
I see many people bitching about how this whole debacle hasn't actually hurt Lindsay at all because she got a bunch of new patrons out of it, but all of them deliberately ignore the psychological toll it's taken on her and I'd argue material loss was never even the goal. cancellation (at least this one) isn't about making people lose money, it's about isolating them, beating them down and demotivating them to the point of disappearing off the face of the internet and on that front I think Lindsay's cancellation was sadly successful. look at how cynical and pessimistic she is. she said it yourself she would quit if she didn't have employees depending on her and I fear that her content will suffer from now on. she might even actually quit after some time and somewhat selfishly I'm very sad because I find her videos to be extremely educative and entertaining. can't blame her though.
"Psychological toll" and yet still makes videos about being canceled
@@whoknows9085 why wouldn't she? like that cancels (haha) it out
@@whoknows9085 If you watch said video about being cancelled, you will find out that the experience forced her to relive one of the worst things that's ever happened to her, and you will be able to see her reliving it _again_ in real time, which... yeah, indicates a pretty significant psychological toll.
I like Lindsey's videos and I stand by her. This hypersensitivity to rather mundane comments is ridiculous. You don't like her comments, then move on. She is not for everyone.
@Thé Fínacìal 𝖣𝗂𝖾̇𝗍 All readers: this is NOT the real financial diet and this is a well-known scam.
I love Lindsay! She didn’t deserve what she got and glad to see she’s starting to bounce back.
“I was cancelled and now believe in trickle-down economics” lmfao SERIOUSLY it drives me nuts when people say they “left the left” because of the behavior of people on the left rather than their actual social and economic values
Thiiiiis
I don't. Part of politically organizing especially as an influencer is hanging out in spaces that involve and have those who've canceled you. Let's face it-the left is increasingly beginning to value and cancel people at alarming rates. If the majority of leftists believe in cancel culture, it becomes the values of the left. And if the right says it doesn't believe in cancel culture and wants to fight against it and claim that is THEIR social value? Its real attractive and had I not been more politically informed I certainly would have fell for it.
The behavior of the left is reflective of what they value. They are not disconnected.
@@objectiverational2363 Nah. First of all, a lot of the people who piled on that Twitter bandwagon aren't on the Left. They see a political enemy weakened and pile on. Secondly, there are extremists in any political group. There are times when the extreme elements of the culture can dominate the whole party. Like obviously the Alt Right nationalism became very prevalent in the last administration. But I don't see Biden out there calling for the cancellation of Lindsay Ellis, lol.
The Left certainly isn't immune to radicalization and moralizing. But participating in Twitter circle-jerks is certainly not something most of us are interested in. We're fighting for education, health care, and fair wages. We don't really have time for that nonsense. Unlike the Right, we have actual work to do.
Exactly. I came to my political, economic and ideological beliefs after a lot of study and thought. These are things I genuinely believe. I’m not going to change my deeply held beliefs because some of the people who share the same/similar belief happen to be arseholes. Arseholes abound everywhere. That doesn’t change the whys or hows of my beliefs.
I think the “I left the left” grifters are exactly that, or they’re supremely easily suggestible and they weren’t deeply held beliefs to begin with. Either they had those beliefs because because they went with the flow and never thought deeply about them all that much, or they didn’t hold those beliefs, and just pretended to. I do think that of the former, that’s more likely to happen with liberals- leftism generally requires a bit more thought and education (mostly because it’s not well represented in mainstream media, you have to search it out). I also haven’t seen many actual leftists do the right wing grift thing. I’ve seen a lot of “liberals” do it though. Sis they “leave the left”? Not really, they left the centre, economically speaking.
But I do get what Lindsay was saying about those who are easily suggestible, and who clung to their new right wing friends because they were nice. But I think they would have been easily suggested into liberal beliefs to begin with, if that makes sense?
@@katherinemorelle7115 If you really think, that your socio-political and economic beliefs are not influenced by your social environment, then you are either one in a million or you are deluding yourself - and I know where my money would be.
Being 'cancelled' over some minor infraction and shunned by your usual social in-group does a number on anyone. If you are then being accepted by a new social environment it's totally normal to being more receptive to their argument and to be more conforming. So why would it not be normal, to have your political and economic beliefs altered by this over time?
A quote that resonated with me that I remember hearing from Jordan Peterson.
“In order to be able to think, you have to risk being offensive.”
What ever you believe, do, or say, someone out there will be offended. It’s usually fine, even healthy, to be offended sometimes, but it goes right down hill the moment someone starts harassing people because of their hurt feelings. People like Lindsay are put down just so someone sitting at a keyboard can feel like they have the moral high ground. It’s just sad.
You were so close to being self aware and then the both of you dehumanized a whole segment of humanity, well done.
while i have no idea who this person is, I do feel bad she was bullied particularly because you can tell how hurt she is even now.
She's amazing! I highly recommend her content. One of my absolute favourite content creators
She's an amazing film critic, and has also done some great work for PBS's "It's Lit", and written a book that's been well-received (but I haven't read it). If you're looking for some of her best stuff, I'd recommend her LOTR and Hobbit reviews.
Honestly, this was therapeutic. I was “canceled” at my college and have no idea how to begin to process it. I had to move home cause I had no support system and everyone I knew was against me and distanced themselves from me. I have felt so alone throughout this time and I am embarrassed to talk about it so seeing someone else that has experienced this has been very healing. Thank you
I was about to ask you: "What happened that got you canceled?" But that's not fair and too intrusive to even ask. So I am going to say, I am sorry everyone turned on you and that you lost your support, and that two years later, I hope you are in a better place.
The paperback AND hardcover versions were both available in germany right from the start, to make it even more confusing.
(english version still, to be clear)
It’s called “bad faith.” That shit thrives around cowardice. We all let this bullshit happen. Lindsay looks tired. I hate this place. Sorry you went through all that. Hope they didn’t ruin her I’ve been a fan for like 8 years.
i close my twitter in november, and i thought i would come back so soon, because it is in fact very addictive. But here i am, two months later and not using twitter…i kind of feel better now.
If it makes anyone feel better, it's estimated over a third of all internet users are bots. Numbers are superficial. Even if you connect with someone in a meaningful way, you never know who you are really talking to unless you meet them face to face. People say things on the internet that they never would get away with in real life. Skepticism is healthy. Follow your intuition.
Lindsay's Mask Off video made me really rethink how I was engaging with Twitter, and then a few weeks ago I just logged off due to complicated reasons. I really felt that "brain does not know what to do" feeling. I would just instinctively open up the site for a week afterwards, and even now, I feel uncomfortable with the empty space of when I would normally be on Twitter. But I only found this video through Twitter, so I guess make of that what you will lol
I had plenty of bad faith readings of what was intended to be lighthearted smalltalk on Twitter (not even about politics, but technology and comedy), but I still don't manage to quit it. Unfollowed a few people, though.
I had to unfollow a lot of people who were dunking on random accounts because I didn't like getting upset so often, and even then, it's hard to escape
I don't have Twitter--and stuff like this makes me glad I don't--so I had no idea this happened to Lindsay until I saw her Mask Off video. I also keep wondering how people had the time to go digging through years and years of tweets. Like...get a (healthier) hobby? Do they not have jobs or school?
A lot of this stuff wasn't "years and years" and even if they were they were good points to bring up that never got answered or discussed
I'm not familiar with Lindsay's work and am only just a recent subscriber to TFD. I wish Lindsay the best and can tell from her can-do attitude with respect to promoting her books that she will overcome the emotional toll of the bullying. Stay strong and rock on Lindsay!
To be honest, to me this is the most stupid cancellation I have ever seen, I do not agree with everything Lindsay says, and at times I disagree really hard, but I still find the whole situation absurd. Great video Chelsea!! I hope Lindsay recovers from this stupid situation, she is a great creator.
Watching this a year later and my first thought is, "I wonder if or when we get to see conversations with Lindsay that aren't about the cancelation anymore." My next thought we "these dogpiling Twitter assholes robbed me of any future Lindsay content."
lindsay's story and her "mask off" video is why I don't post much on social media. People ask why and I tell them Social Media is such a toxic environment that it's effecting mental health. Last year made it so much worse because people got hatey while being stuck at home. It's horrible that I'm preventing my growth because I'm seeing all these horrible stories that shouldn't happen. :/
I lose sleep at night when one a-hole attacks me online. I cannot fathom what a dog pile of this magnitude feels like. And it is absolutely preventing people from being creative or constructive in online spaces!
I am too worried about my digital footprint to say or do anything interesting on social media.
"Ben Shapiro has a humiliation fetish..." Cool to know that Ellis watched the Michael Brooks Show too 😎
Rest in power, brother Michael.
I think of Michael Brooks every day. We lost a great one. 🌹
"sOmE HiGh LeVeL iDeAs" I miss Michael every day
I looked up her reason of being cancelled is bc her comments towards Raya and the last dragon??? She's not the only person who thought the universe was a huge reminder of atla (even frozen 2 got compared to avatar)
Disney writers are being less and less creative and they deserve to get those critics
She was never actually canceled. She said a lot of insensitive things to poc, and instead of apologizing she doubled down and left twitter for a while herself
And then some time lass and she comes out with these "i was canceled" stories
@@whoknows9085 This. This whole thing would have been a none incident if she had just said, sorry, I spoke naively and didn't mean it that way. I apologize.
Instead she doubled down and went further. Just don't do that. I mean its not hard. I did it recently when I attacked Rob Liefield for being a crap artist with no value, but a really good artist replied and said his art influenced them and they were actually really amazing. I apologized, said I still didn't like him as an artist but respect that he had a positive influence on their art.
You don’t deserve it, Linds 😭😭😭
Sending my love
Not sure if Lindsey read comments or even if her team does but I hope she knows not everyone cancels someone. I love your content whether I agree with your take or not. Your a great content creator and media critic. I really hope you can mentally and emotionally overcome the actions of a few rotten apples. And know that there a whole group of fan waiting for your return and cheering for you.
I love your videos they're helping me through a pretty tough time right now.
It’s like the saying goes; you reap what you sow.
Keeping off of social media is so much better for your mental health. I can’t imagine doing a job where you’re kinda required to be in the space. Lindsey clearly didn’t deserve what happened to her. But I became a patron of hers because of it. She seemed like an interesting voice in this space.
It’s fantastically wonderful - and brave - that you ladies did this. Wow. I’m so impressed. Cancelation is deplorable, and yes, there will be life afterwards. Bravo and thank you!!
I'm glad we're finally having this discussions about what social media affect us in so many levels. Not to mention that the fact that online harassment has gone this bad is itself the consequence of not taking it seriously a decade or two decades ago when it wasn't at this level.
A very serious discussion on how to make online spaces safe for everyone is long overdue and it is time for actions to be taken to ensure that.
It's a crossover episode!
😂
Congratulations Lindsay on your second book coming out! You should be very proud of your success. You've been making funny, insightful commentary for years and releasing it for free. I know you've been a net positive to my life. Thank you TFD for using this platform to call out bad faith "cancellations."
Social media is such a mixed bag. It has given a voice to the previously voiceless-but then you have unwarranted dogpiles like what happened to Lindsay which makes me want to rage quit every app. We really have to re-examine how we use social media and to what end.
Lindsay had me at "f*ck them" love it