Great video as always! I miss a certain part from the silmarillion in the discussion that always interested me: "Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy. But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, and confounded it with darkness, and brought forth evil out of good, and fear out of hope." I understand it the way that death really was a gift at the beginning and men only started to fear it because of morgoth. Ironically enough the started to pray to him to avoid death..
I was surprised this wasn’t covered here too. I seem to recall that even when the Elves died their spirits were bound to Arda and hung out in the halls of Mandos until the end, whereas men truly left the world and no one knew where they went.
At 68 years old, death is a subject that I think about a lot more than I used to do. I hope to be able to emulate Aragorn when my time comes & die with dignity before I become "Unmanned".
If you keep your mind in a good state after certain age, chances are you are gonna be ok. Statistics say that the chances to get Alzheimer doubles every 5 years after 65 but in my experience as a professional, what doubles are actually the diagnostics. Most of the people who are diagnosed after 80, already had the disease from much before but it was not so heavy to carry for their familiars, sometimes they didn't notice, sometimes they didn't care. Keep a good and balanced diet, try to do exercises adapted to your capabilities, exercise your mind, read, solve problems (sudoku and other games of that kind are good) and have a bit of luck, don't have the wrong gene activated, and everything will go fine. There are a lot of people who reach their 90s in very good shape.
Another interesting parallel is with Voldemort in the Harry Potter series -- he quite literally has to split his soul to attain the closest possible thing to immortality (which he has to commit murder to do), and it is quite vividly described how his initially handsome features slowly get more distorted and snakelike the more he splits his soul.
I wish I'd discovered your channel much sooner. I've been looking for channel's that put the spotlight on authentic content and good writing by people like tolkein and going in depth on the thing s that last after the music fades. The thing that really matter.
In terms of the canonical Tolkien it is Morgoth that made Men fear death. And having studied both Budo and Buddhism both make a big emphasis on having no fear of death. Almost all living things die.
@@simonmorris4226 I doubt it never dies. But yeah I think I know what you're talking about, a starfish or something that regenerates to such a degree that they've called it immortal
Great analysis man, definitely feel a kind of passion for life stirring in me; as I reflected on my own fear of death and desire to do away with that fear.
Given the opportunity, I would absolutely choose to live longer or forever, regardless of any consequence. If I had to harm others, though, I would not accept it. Thought-provoking ruminations, my earthly brother. Thank you for sharing.
this was a great video. I just have one detail I wanted to address: I think there's indication that Denethor's corruption is largely from his struggle against Sauron (and it's at least hinted that he contended directly through a palantir). So, it could be that he would have been restored after the Ring was destroyed
Maybe, but based on the appendices material on Aragorn’s time as Thorongil Denethor was pretty prideful and jealous of his perceived rights long before that.
Very perceptive, as usual, Tolkien Geek. I admire your pursuit of the difficult topics because that is just what Tolkien himself was grappling with as he wrote his masterpiece. Keep up the good work. Namarie.
I keep running into this story i have not read but keepnhearing about so now i have a link, thanks to you! I don't have all the Histories. Thank you. Ill look at it tomorrow but im going to watch the scary movie you also graciously posted a link for. I hate scary movies. And Jack Palance creeps me out.
You are spot on. The reason immortality has its negative aspect is due to the extension of a fallen condition. The Hebrew story of keeping Adam and Eve away from the Tree of Life after the Fall was not-so-much a punishment but a protection. You do not want to be Dorian Gray susceptible to perpetual corruption.
The original Hebrew context was that God (or gods) were afraid of men becoming too powerful as to threaten the dominion of God/gods. So, having both the knowledge of good and evil, and immortality, would have been to op in the creator's perspective. The similar motif is in the story of the Tower of Babylon too. An alternative and perhaps more mature and psychological reading of the paradise myth would be that according to the creator's plan, men were supposed to "fall" in order to proceed into adulthood, so to speak, to set free from childlike instinctive existence devoid of moral knowledge and moral agency. Breaking the rule was the test and men passed. Although in the end the creator has too much ego to admit that to men. Of course Tolkien would probably reject these interpretations and conform to the Christian framework that very much rework the meaning.
Great video! The more I read/think/hear about the differing dooms of Men and Elves, the more I pity the Elves and think Men may have gotten the better bargain.
And if you pay attention, the Elves have the same reaction, which is no doubt related to their general melancholy about the world. They take intense joy from it but also intense sadness, knowing it’s imperfect and can’t last, but with no certainty of their being able to outlive it.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Yeah, I think it's the fact that both races envy each other that contributes to their strained relations at times. Elves seeing Men as having a free pass, a way to get off the carousel; Men seeing the Elves apparently untouched by the grief and fear of death; neither sympathetic to the others' complaints. Recipe for resentment.
@@TolkienLorePodcast - While ambiguous about the ultimate fate of the elves, the Silmarillion does state that part of the gift of men is that they will have a role in the new music of Eru after Eä ends, and that they will return to life in the new creation.
I think that for some reason this depth of Tolkien's message just came to me now that Im in my 30s. Tolkien's work had a different meaning to me when I was younger. Now that I understand better the gift of mortality, Im enjoying it the best I can and trying to remember to live fully. Im a faithful now
In the Silmarillion it is mentioned numerous times that death is a gift to men. When the Elves learn about this gift (they don't know exactly what it is) some even get jealous. He also went out of his way to describe the agony of waiting out time in the halls of Mandos as well as the pain, sorrow and indifference caused by having immortality.
I sometimes think that what is the problem is that we overstate our importance in the world, our cells born and die in order to keep us alive and we born and die to keep something greater alive. Either you think this greater thing is the society, the world as a hole it up to you but being part of the bigger cycle is the meaning of live (by some interpretations).
I think one of the factors that contributes to the fear of death, particularly in the modern era, is the fear of a lingering death filled with poor health physically and/or mentally. Speaking for myself, I know that if I could retain reasonable good health, I'd like to live a lot longer than the life span of even the longest lived humans. Then the question is how long would I like to live? 250 years? 1000? 100000? What would that be like, particularly if everyone else still lived a normal life span? There's a movie called "The Man from Earth" that's about a man whose been alive for many thousands of years. The other thing I have wondered about regarding immortality is if the worst part about it might be boredom. If one has a life span that never ends, I think it is quite possible that at a certain point people might want to be done with it because there is nothing that interests them anymore to do.
Re the "injecting the blood" thing: the process is called "parabiosis", and the story was in the news mainly because of its connection to a certain well-known Silicon Valley figure who is, by his own accounts, a major Tolkien enthusiast (but a little unclear on the concept, I suppose). Cf.: Lyta Gold's article in _Current Affairs_ "The Fake Nerd Boys of Silicon Valley" (7 July 2020); Michael Maiello's article "Why Do America’s Most Vile Companies Associate Themselves With Tolkien?" (16 October 2020); Maya Kosoff's article in _Vanity Fair_ "P-- T-- Wants to Inject Himself With Young People's Blood" (1 August 2016) BTW, C. S. Lewis has made observations about death and mortality similar to those implied by Tolkien (unsurprisingly): ---------- "Death . . . is a safety-device because, once Man has fallen, natural immortality would be the one utterly hopeless destiny for him. Aided to the surrender that he must make by no external necessity of Death, free (if you call it freedom) to rivet faster and faster about himself through unending centuries the chains of his own pride and lust and of the nightmare civilizations which these build up in ever-increasing power and complication, he would progress from being merely a fallen man to being a fiend, possibly beyond all modes of redemption." C. S. Lewis, _Miracles_, Chapter 14 "The Grand Miracle", p. 210 ==== ---------- "The time was ripe. From the point of view which is accepted in Hell, the whole history of our Earth had led up to this moment. There was now at last a real chance for fallen Man to shake off that limitation of his powers which mercy had imposed upon him as a protection from the full results of his fall. If this succeeded, Hell would be at last incarnate. Bad men, while still in the body, still crawling on this little globe, would enter that state which, heretofore, they had entered only after death, would have the diuturnity and power of evil spirits. Nature, all over the globe of Tellus, would become their slave; and of that dominion no end, before the end of time itself, could be certainly foreseen." C. S. Lewis, _That Hideous Strength_, p. 203 ==== ---------- "The story of Ayesha [in H. Rider Haggard's _She_] is not an escape, but it is about escape; about an attempt at the great escape, daringly made and terribly frustrated. Its closest relative, perhaps its child, is Morris's _Well at the World's End_, which came ten years later. Both stories externalise the same psychological forces; our irreconcilable reluctance to die, our craving for an immortality in the flesh, our empirical knowledge that this is impossible, our intermittent awareness that it is not even really desirable, and (octaves deeper than all these) a very primitive feeling that the attempt, if it could be made, would be unlawful and would call down the vengeance of the gods. In both books the wild, transporting, and (we feel) forbidden hope is aroused. When fruition seems almost in sight, horrifying disaster shatters our dream. . ." C. S. Lewis, _On Stories (And Other Essays On Literature)_, "The Mythopoeic Gift of Rider Haggard", pp. 98-100 ==== ;->
When I read of Illuvatar's 'gift to Men', much of its fear fell away for me. I've put my trust in an honourable and wise man for 35 years, and none of the wisdom contained within his legendarium has ever proven false, to me.
Great show mate always thought provoking. “However hard one may try to prove that virtue is useful, it will always be difficult to make a man live well if he will not face death.” - Alexis de Tocqueville
From "The Silmarillion" - Akallabêth (the Downfall of Númenor). I think it's.. a .. somewhat, legit argument. "And the Númenóreans answered: 'Why should we not envy the Valar, or even the least of the Deathless? For of us is required a blind trust, and a hope without assurance, knowing not what lies before us in a little while. And yet we also love the Earth and would not lose it."
A brilliant video. The meaning of death, and how humanity deals with this apparently intolerable perspective, is the central theme of Tolkien's mithology. It is a question men have asked themselves for millennia. All religious beliefs, in any ages and latitudes, have been developed to provide an explaination to this inscrutable mistery. I love Tolkien's apparently simple answer to this foundamental question - death is a gift, because it gives men a sense of purpose and urgency to achieve something of value in the short time they have to spend on Arda i.e. Earth that immortal being inevitably don't have, or can't even understand. To me, this is a thoroughly comforting thought. And, like good is defined by evil, life has a meaning only in relation to death. We would not really value life if we did not have death as it's opposite, and inevitable, condition. The tragic inevitability of death is what makes us love life.
I actually wrote an essay on this a few years past! No, I'm not accusing you of plagiarism ;) It was on Facebook, but given how tight my privacy settings are, I would severely doubt it, and I am glad that others have come to the same conclusions as I have, if by a different route (my inspiration was solely my shared faith with Tolkien, and reflecting on that faith, death, and his works). You've touched on one main point, that unending life to the evil and corrupted would be terrible to those who must endure such a one, so I shan't belabor it. I would also add the misery to someone who was good, someone redeemable as you said. Imagine you were given unending life in THIS world, and made incorruptible. Now, you have to march down the long years, watching others you love grow old and die, being in a fashion either utterly alone, or perhaps in a small company of others, but all you can do is share the misery down the long years. Imagine having to watch Christ up on the Cross, the downfall of Rome, the Dark Ages, the savagery of men, whether they are "civilized" or not. Imagine witnessing the Black Plague, the atrocities of the Huns and the Mongol hordes, the conquering of the Native Americans (let alone the atrocities they visited on each other), to see the rise of mechanized warfare, so that the slaughter exponentially grows from the Napoleonic wars to WW I to WW II, the coming of atomic weaponry and the sword of Damocles it represents over the entirety of humanity...what a torture! Indeed, one can view death both as punishment and as a gift, a punishment we dearly needed because of our fallen state. I think this is why I would hold to the orcs being perverted elves, and irredeemable. Surely, with God, all things are possible, and we are told He is willing all should come...but not all of us choose to do so. I think that's reflected in the archetype of the orc. The orc is so far gone, he doesn't WANT redemption. So too with the Nazgul, the troll, what have you. Denethor chose his pride over his country and his duty, and thus his ultimate downfall, Aragorn chose duty and hardship, and grace at the end, to face his fate as though welcoming a friend not yet made, but anticipated. The elves represent to me (I know how Tolkien felt about allegory, so I won't claim this was deliberate on his part, with any certainty, anyway) the other end of the spectrum, to endure, and have life, but to see all things perish, and all strong things eventually fade...it is a weariness to them. Thus the invitation to the Undying Lands, where the powers that shaped Middle Earth do in total what Nenya and Vilya do in part) where things remain evergreen, where things do not fade, and the elves, bound to the circle of the world, do no longer feel the weariness of the long years. Men die swiftly, but are reunited to Iluvatar, and who is to say that this is not a grievance in turn to the elves, denied that further intimacy? Thank you for this. Despite me nitpicking your pronunciation ( ;)) :, I believe this depth of thought and perception into Middle Earth is rare, but I am glad others have perceived it, and THIS establishes your claim to Tolkien authority, in my opinion. "May your eyries receive you at the journey's end!"
@@john.premose Typical militant atheist. Thanks for your unwanted, unnecessary, often repeated opinion. The horse is now dead, so you can cease beating it now.
Well i think Men's spirits are just designed differently. They have the will to shape their own destiny and find no contentment within Arda so just imagine them being immortal and bound to Arda would be like a torture to their very being and in time, will become corrupted - always seeking out but cannot escape their current state. Immortality will be like a forever prison to them.
in other hand I must add that I think living a Dúnedain lifespan is the perfect balance between having a full joyful life and having enough time to develop several skills and wisdom
I agree with your analysis that death is a gift for humans are corruptible, and to save themselves and others from further corruption they die. I also think it ties with suffering. A wise man I knew once said that we were all prone to illnesses and being the way we were living forever in our current corruptible state would only bring us continual suffering, in the end. The idea of Heaven is that we would be free from these carnal ties that cause our sufferings and pain, or at least partially.
I think unmanned simply means senile. Until recently, people dying from natural causes typically died fairly rapidly, like my in-laws or my father, who went from living independently to dead in 1-2 weeks at ages 55-75. A slow decline with senility like my material grandparents was relatively uncommon. Since Numenorean kings were given the choice to accept death when it was time and die peacefully in settings of their choosing, like my wife's 94 yo grandma. She had been terminally ill with a cancer that was not causing her uncontrollable pain, but which exhausted her. On the day of he death she said she felt that she would die that day. That evening, surrounded by family she fell asleep, woke up once and said "I'm still here" and then fell asleep and woke no more. Something like this is probably what Tolkien had in mind.
The idea of an immortal life in a fallen world seems pretty unbearable to me. Imagine living in England from the year 1000 up to now, and how much change you'd see and be a part of, how many men's life's work you'd see crumble and fall. Heck, just 1500 up to now would cover dozens of paradigm shifts. And that doesn't get into personal relationships and losses. C.S. Lewis said it well through Digory Kirke: "I don't think I'd like to live on and on forever after everyone I know has died. I'd rather live an ordinary time and die and go to Heaven."
The thing is, elves never die. They can even come back to life, like Glorfindel. Elves can not understand the nature of death and mortality. And the presence of mortal men, who grow up, grow old and die or die from sickness, that makes elves sad. Because they can not understand what happens to those humans. Elves don't know sickness. Elves are a part of the world, for as long as the world will exist. Humans die. And exept a few, will never come back to life. It is the same as dwarves, only that dwarves live longer than humans. And the cursed dead wish to be released so that their souls can find peace. I think, the human mind is not made for immortality.
I think the main point of death being a gift is the whole not being bound forever to the circles of this world thing. Men are not tied to Arda as Elves are.
Men might have not become so corrupted by Morgoth if the Valar hadn't just taken off for Aman after the whole lamp incident. If they hadn't chickened out and continued to fight Morgoth, things could've been different for everyone.
Do men really die? In Tolkien's world they are not bound forever to the circles of the world like elves and dwarves. And as Aragorn says to Arwen, "beyond is more than just memory". That is one of the points raised by the last conversation between Arwen and Elrond, that their parting would extend forever. An unanswered question that I don't think Tolkien ever addressed was an end of time, when the world is unmade, or made anew. Might there be some far time where elves, dwarves, ents and men are brought together in a perfect creation without the rebellion of Morgoth or the others he corrupted.
The issue with comparing lotr gift of men to real life is that in real life we really don't know if there's an afterlife. Which means that extending the lives we have seems a lot more acceptable. In lotr the afterlife of men may be a mystery but it is there. There are ghosts and magic and wizards, you have the valar and elves. It's easier for men of lotr to accept death as another step. It took sauron in order to frighten men. We do that to ourselves naturally out of fear of the unknown For us it might be the last step and there may be nothing. It makes the gift of men feel wrong to us more than it should to the humans of Tolkien's world. The real thing Tolkien probably insinuates is that you have to have faith maybe? I'm not sure. All I know is that our real world is more mysterious than fiction and we may never know what comes next. I think we shouldn't try frown on extending our lives in our world. It shouldn't be a bad thing. Sacrifice is bad yes but blood treatments are not sinister. In fact humans have already extended our lives just by being healthier than humans of the old days who only lived to 40 years old. Now we can make it to 100 which is drastically more and nobody sees it as bad. We only have one life to be with those we love and though we all die, we can at least prolong our happiness
Yes. Immortality goes against our nature as humanity. This world is given to everyone who has mortality. I seen many individuals chose cryogenic sleep to extend their life. It really reminds me of the wight from barrow down. Even transhumanism as mutilated orcs. Without changes we are doomed to dwindle. The taste of food wouldn't be as exciting as when you were a child. Or the constant of day and night cycle. Would become stale and mundane. Even this universe isn't constant as we strolled on entropy to a very slow death. Continent shifts, the sun ages into a red giant. The world sterile and lifeless. as the universe turn cold. Stars dies and galaxy fading. That's when even the valar would be envied the gift of men. I would choose a numenorian lives. Where my mind is still sharpened and my body is strong even closing to death.
I really have to question your logic on this. Men were always mortal, they weren't immortal and then someone shat the bed, and everybody was cursed to have a mortal life afterwards. Iluvatar made them mortal when they first awoke. The Gift of Men is not to be bound by the spheres of Arda, unlike the Elves who are bound by the spheres of Arda. Unlike the Valar who are bound by the spheres of Arda. Men are not. When Men die, their Fea goes beyond the spheres of Arda, they are not tied to it. That is the gift Eru gave them. And in that, they are more like Eru than even the Elves could imagine. And Tolkien had said that even this Gift the Powers will envy Men. The Valar would grow jealous of this gift. I dunno where you're getting this from, but it's very wrong.
I'm sorry, I'm eating ghost pepper burritos. I can't really concentrate on what you're saying. I want to know if you could you please repeat all of that... Louder. Thanks.
This comes as my father is in hospice in a coma. There is comfort in your analysis, strange as it may seem. Thank you.
Great video as always!
I miss a certain part from the silmarillion in the discussion that always interested me:
"Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy. But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, and confounded it with darkness, and brought forth evil out of good, and fear out of hope."
I understand it the way that death really was a gift at the beginning and men only started to fear it because of morgoth.
Ironically enough the started to pray to him to avoid death..
I was surprised this wasn’t covered here too. I seem to recall that even when the Elves died their spirits were bound to Arda and hung out in the halls of Mandos until the end, whereas men truly left the world and no one knew where they went.
You're the best Tolkien Geek there is. I really like your take and addressing on topics and all that!
I second that.
"Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light."
Always loved Dylan Thomas
At 68 years old, death is a subject that I think about a lot more than I used to do. I hope to be able to emulate Aragorn when my time comes & die with dignity before I become "Unmanned".
Yep. Not quite there yet, but give me a quick, peaceful death in my sleep rather than another decade of being senile, sick and in pain.
If you keep your mind in a good state after certain age, chances are you are gonna be ok. Statistics say that the chances to get Alzheimer doubles every 5 years after 65 but in my experience as a professional, what doubles are actually the diagnostics. Most of the people who are diagnosed after 80, already had the disease from much before but it was not so heavy to carry for their familiars, sometimes they didn't notice, sometimes they didn't care.
Keep a good and balanced diet, try to do exercises adapted to your capabilities, exercise your mind, read, solve problems (sudoku and other games of that kind are good) and have a bit of luck, don't have the wrong gene activated, and everything will go fine.
There are a lot of people who reach their 90s in very good shape.
I just read "Leaf by Niggle" recently. I think it's quite interesting as an idea of life after death, and it reminds me of the Halls of Mandos.
Another interesting parallel is with Voldemort in the Harry Potter series -- he quite literally has to split his soul to attain the closest possible thing to immortality (which he has to commit murder to do), and it is quite vividly described how his initially handsome features slowly get more distorted and snakelike the more he splits his soul.
I'm 52 and starting to guess how much time I have left. This gave a little comfort.
I wish I'd discovered your channel much sooner. I've been looking for channel's that put the spotlight on authentic content and good writing by people like tolkein and going in depth on the thing s that last after the music fades. The thing that really matter.
In terms of the canonical Tolkien it is Morgoth that made Men fear death. And having studied both Budo and Buddhism both make a big emphasis on having no fear of death. Almost all living things die.
What do you mean "almost all"? Lol
A very few dont.@@john.premose
@@simonmorris4226 such as who?
Some wierd deep sea organism. Can’t remember the name.@@john.premose
@@simonmorris4226 I doubt it never dies. But yeah I think I know what you're talking about, a starfish or something that regenerates to such a degree that they've called it immortal
Great analysis man, definitely feel a kind of passion for life stirring in me; as I reflected on my own fear of death and desire to do away with that fear.
Given the opportunity, I would absolutely choose to live longer or forever, regardless of any consequence. If I had to harm others, though, I would not accept it.
Thought-provoking ruminations, my earthly brother. Thank you for sharing.
this was a great video. I just have one detail I wanted to address: I think there's indication that Denethor's corruption is largely from his struggle against Sauron (and it's at least hinted that he contended directly through a palantir). So, it could be that he would have been restored after the Ring was destroyed
Maybe, but based on the appendices material on Aragorn’s time as Thorongil Denethor was pretty prideful and jealous of his perceived rights long before that.
This is my favourite video of yours I've watched so far
Very perceptive, as usual, Tolkien Geek. I admire your pursuit of the difficult topics because that is just what Tolkien himself was grappling with as he wrote his masterpiece. Keep up the good work. Namarie.
You are a special person with a great mind :) good content as always!
I keep running into this story i have not read but keepnhearing about so now i have a link, thanks to you! I don't have all the Histories. Thank you. Ill look at it tomorrow but im going to watch the scary movie you also graciously posted a link for. I hate scary movies. And Jack Palance creeps me out.
This was a very insightful and meaningful reflection!
You are spot on. The reason immortality has its negative aspect is due to the extension of a fallen condition. The Hebrew story of keeping Adam and Eve away from the Tree of Life after the Fall was not-so-much a punishment but a protection. You do not want to be Dorian Gray susceptible to perpetual corruption.
Another fascinating comparison!
The original Hebrew context was that God (or gods) were afraid of men becoming too powerful as to threaten the dominion of God/gods. So, having both the knowledge of good and evil, and immortality, would have been to op in the creator's perspective. The similar motif is in the story of the Tower of Babylon too.
An alternative and perhaps more mature and psychological reading of the paradise myth would be that according to the creator's plan, men were supposed to "fall" in order to proceed into adulthood, so to speak, to set free from childlike instinctive existence devoid of moral knowledge and moral agency. Breaking the rule was the test and men passed. Although in the end the creator has too much ego to admit that to men.
Of course Tolkien would probably reject these interpretations and conform to the Christian framework that very much rework the meaning.
Great video! The more I read/think/hear about the differing dooms of Men and Elves, the more I pity the Elves and think Men may have gotten the better bargain.
And if you pay attention, the Elves have the same reaction, which is no doubt related to their general melancholy about the world. They take intense joy from it but also intense sadness, knowing it’s imperfect and can’t last, but with no certainty of their being able to outlive it.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Yeah, I think it's the fact that both races envy each other that contributes to their strained relations at times. Elves seeing Men as having a free pass, a way to get off the carousel; Men seeing the Elves apparently untouched by the grief and fear of death; neither sympathetic to the others' complaints. Recipe for resentment.
A very applicable observation.
@@TolkienLorePodcast - While ambiguous about the ultimate fate of the elves, the Silmarillion does state that part of the gift of men is that they will have a role in the new music of Eru after Eä ends, and that they will return to life in the new creation.
Great video man . One of the best ones yet I think
Really interesting topic, thanks for the great video
I think that for some reason this depth of Tolkien's message just came to me now that Im in my 30s. Tolkien's work had a different meaning to me when I was younger. Now that I understand better the gift of mortality, Im enjoying it the best I can and trying to remember to live fully. Im a faithful now
In the Silmarillion it is mentioned numerous times that death is a gift to men. When the Elves learn about this gift (they don't know exactly what it is) some even get jealous. He also went out of his way to describe the agony of waiting out time in the halls of Mandos as well as the pain, sorrow and indifference caused by having immortality.
I sometimes think that what is the problem is that we overstate our importance in the world, our cells born and die in order to keep us alive and we born and die to keep something greater alive. Either you think this greater thing is the society, the world as a hole it up to you but being part of the bigger cycle is the meaning of live (by some interpretations).
I think one of the factors that contributes to the fear of death, particularly in the modern era, is the fear of a lingering death filled with poor health physically and/or mentally. Speaking for myself, I know that if I could retain reasonable good health, I'd like to live a lot longer than the life span of even the longest lived humans. Then the question is how long would I like to live? 250 years? 1000? 100000? What would that be like, particularly if everyone else still lived a normal life span? There's a movie called "The Man from Earth" that's about a man whose been alive for many thousands of years.
The other thing I have wondered about regarding immortality is if the worst part about it might be boredom. If one has a life span that never ends, I think it is quite possible that at a certain point people might want to be done with it because there is nothing that interests them anymore to do.
Re the "injecting the blood" thing: the process is called
"parabiosis", and the story was in the news mainly because
of its connection to a certain well-known Silicon Valley
figure who is, by his own accounts, a major Tolkien enthusiast
(but a little unclear on the concept, I suppose).
Cf.:
Lyta Gold's article in _Current Affairs_ "The Fake Nerd Boys of
Silicon Valley" (7 July 2020);
Michael Maiello's article "Why Do America’s Most Vile Companies
Associate Themselves With Tolkien?" (16 October 2020);
Maya Kosoff's article in _Vanity Fair_ "P-- T-- Wants to Inject
Himself With Young People's Blood" (1 August 2016)
BTW, C. S. Lewis has made observations about death and mortality
similar to those implied by Tolkien (unsurprisingly):
----------
"Death . . . is a safety-device because, once Man
has fallen, natural immortality would be the one utterly
hopeless destiny for him. Aided to the surrender
that he must make by no external necessity of
Death, free (if you call it freedom) to rivet faster
and faster about himself through unending centuries
the chains of his own pride and lust and of the
nightmare civilizations which these build up in
ever-increasing power and complication, he
would progress from being merely a fallen man
to being a fiend, possibly beyond all modes of
redemption."
C. S. Lewis, _Miracles_,
Chapter 14 "The Grand Miracle", p. 210
====
----------
"The time was ripe. From the point
of view which is accepted in Hell, the whole
history of our Earth had led up to this moment.
There was now at last a real chance for fallen Man
to shake off that limitation of his powers which mercy
had imposed upon him as a protection from the full
results of his fall. If this succeeded, Hell would be
at last incarnate. Bad men, while still in the body,
still crawling on this little globe, would enter that state
which, heretofore, they had entered only after
death, would have the diuturnity and power of evil
spirits. Nature, all over the globe of Tellus, would
become their slave; and of that dominion no end,
before the end of time itself, could be certainly
foreseen."
C. S. Lewis, _That Hideous Strength_, p. 203
====
----------
"The story of Ayesha [in H. Rider Haggard's _She_]
is not an escape, but it is about escape;
about an attempt at the great escape,
daringly made and terribly frustrated.
Its closest relative, perhaps its child, is Morris's
_Well at the World's End_, which came ten years
later. Both stories externalise the same
psychological forces; our irreconcilable reluctance
to die, our craving for an immortality in the flesh,
our empirical knowledge that this is impossible,
our intermittent awareness that it is not even
really desirable, and (octaves deeper than all
these) a very primitive feeling that the attempt,
if it could be made, would be unlawful and would
call down the vengeance of the gods. In both
books the wild, transporting, and (we feel)
forbidden hope is aroused. When fruition seems
almost in sight, horrifying disaster shatters our
dream. . ."
C. S. Lewis, _On Stories (And Other Essays On Literature)_,
"The Mythopoeic Gift of Rider Haggard", pp. 98-100
====
;->
When I read of Illuvatar's 'gift to Men', much of its fear fell away for me. I've put my trust in an honourable and wise man for 35 years, and none of the wisdom contained within his legendarium has ever proven false, to me.
This was truly excellent sir
Great show mate always thought provoking.
“However hard one may try to prove that virtue is useful, it will always be difficult to make a man live well if he will not face death.”
- Alexis de Tocqueville
From "The Silmarillion" - Akallabêth (the Downfall of Númenor).
I think it's.. a .. somewhat, legit argument.
"And the Númenóreans answered: 'Why should we not envy the Valar, or even the least of the Deathless?
For of us is required a blind trust, and a hope without assurance, knowing not what lies before us in a little while.
And yet we also love the Earth and would not lose it."
Thanks for the video. It is very helpful and informative.
I guess Aragorn never read that bit by Shakespear about " dont go quietly into that good night".
Dylan Thomas
@@wobh688 wow its been a while since Ive felt stupid.
@@wobh688 lovely poem but I don’t agree with the sentiments! I think the point of it is that the dead don’t suffer grief. It’s the living that do!
So true. Staying alive is not necessarily the same as living. Also living in fear of death grasping at straws is definitely not life anymore.
A brilliant video. The meaning of death, and how humanity deals with this apparently intolerable perspective, is the central theme of Tolkien's mithology. It is a question men have asked themselves for millennia. All religious beliefs, in any ages and latitudes, have been developed to provide an explaination to this inscrutable mistery. I love Tolkien's apparently simple answer to this foundamental question - death is a gift, because it gives men a sense of purpose and urgency to achieve something of value in the short time they have to spend on Arda i.e. Earth that immortal being inevitably don't have, or can't even understand. To me, this is a thoroughly comforting thought. And, like good is defined by evil, life has a meaning only in relation to death. We would not really value life if we did not have death as it's opposite, and inevitable, condition. The tragic inevitability of death is what makes us love life.
Cattle dies, friends die, family dies and you will die. What matters is, what others have to say about your deeds.
Great video!
I actually wrote an essay on this a few years past! No, I'm not accusing you of plagiarism ;) It was on Facebook, but given how tight my privacy settings are, I would severely doubt it, and I am glad that others have come to the same conclusions as I have, if by a different route (my inspiration was solely my shared faith with Tolkien, and reflecting on that faith, death, and his works).
You've touched on one main point, that unending life to the evil and corrupted would be terrible to those who must endure such a one, so I shan't belabor it. I would also add the misery to someone who was good, someone redeemable as you said. Imagine you were given unending life in THIS world, and made incorruptible. Now, you have to march down the long years, watching others you love grow old and die, being in a fashion either utterly alone, or perhaps in a small company of others, but all you can do is share the misery down the long years. Imagine having to watch Christ up on the Cross, the downfall of Rome, the Dark Ages, the savagery of men, whether they are "civilized" or not. Imagine witnessing the Black Plague, the atrocities of the Huns and the Mongol hordes, the conquering of the Native Americans (let alone the atrocities they visited on each other), to see the rise of mechanized warfare, so that the slaughter exponentially grows from the Napoleonic wars to WW I to WW II, the coming of atomic weaponry and the sword of Damocles it represents over the entirety of humanity...what a torture! Indeed, one can view death both as punishment and as a gift, a punishment we dearly needed because of our fallen state.
I think this is why I would hold to the orcs being perverted elves, and irredeemable. Surely, with God, all things are possible, and we are told He is willing all should come...but not all of us choose to do so. I think that's reflected in the archetype of the orc. The orc is so far gone, he doesn't WANT redemption. So too with the Nazgul, the troll, what have you. Denethor chose his pride over his country and his duty, and thus his ultimate downfall, Aragorn chose duty and hardship, and grace at the end, to face his fate as though welcoming a friend not yet made, but anticipated. The elves represent to me (I know how Tolkien felt about allegory, so I won't claim this was deliberate on his part, with any certainty, anyway) the other end of the spectrum, to endure, and have life, but to see all things perish, and all strong things eventually fade...it is a weariness to them. Thus the invitation to the Undying Lands, where the powers that shaped Middle Earth do in total what Nenya and Vilya do in part) where things remain evergreen, where things do not fade, and the elves, bound to the circle of the world, do no longer feel the weariness of the long years. Men die swiftly, but are reunited to Iluvatar, and who is to say that this is not a grievance in turn to the elves, denied that further intimacy?
Thank you for this. Despite me nitpicking your pronunciation ( ;)) :, I believe this depth of thought and perception into Middle Earth is rare, but I am glad others have perceived it, and THIS establishes your claim to Tolkien authority, in my opinion.
"May your eyries receive you at the journey's end!"
Oh please. "God"? Seriously?
If you actually believe all this rubbish(which I highly doubt) you have my sincerest pity. Eye roll.
@@john.premose Typical militant atheist. Thanks for your unwanted, unnecessary, often repeated opinion. The horse is now dead, so you can cease beating it now.
@@ianshaw1486 unfortunately it's not. You've been beating it for 2000 years so cry me a river.
@@john.premose Well, I'm only pushing 49, so...
An interesting and well-considered philosophical rumination.
Well i think Men's spirits are just designed differently. They have the will to shape their own destiny and find no contentment within Arda so just imagine them being immortal and bound to Arda would be like a torture to their very being and in time, will become corrupted - always seeking out but cannot escape their current state. Immortality will be like a forever prison to them.
Great video
I enjoyed it so much thank you for making this video ☺️ I laughed so much too 🤣 "offs you" 😂
in other hand I must add that I think living a Dúnedain lifespan is the perfect balance between having a full joyful life and having enough time to develop several skills and wisdom
I agree with your analysis that death is a gift for humans are corruptible, and to save themselves and others from further corruption they die. I also think it ties with suffering. A wise man I knew once said that we were all prone to illnesses and being the way we were living forever in our current corruptible state would only bring us continual suffering, in the end. The idea of Heaven is that we would be free from these carnal ties that cause our sufferings and pain, or at least partially.
I think unmanned simply means senile. Until recently, people dying from natural causes typically died fairly rapidly, like my in-laws or my father, who went from living independently to dead in 1-2 weeks at ages 55-75. A slow decline with senility like my material grandparents was relatively uncommon.
Since Numenorean kings were given the choice to accept death when it was time and die peacefully in settings of their choosing, like my wife's 94 yo grandma. She had been terminally ill with a cancer that was not causing her uncontrollable pain, but which exhausted her. On the day of he death she said she felt that she would die that day. That evening, surrounded by family she fell asleep, woke up once and said "I'm still here" and then fell asleep and woke no more. Something like this is probably what Tolkien had in mind.
It’s a sad, yet beautiful story.
Live forever is the greatest nightmare ever.
good stuff man
The idea of an immortal life in a fallen world seems pretty unbearable to me. Imagine living in England from the year 1000 up to now, and how much change you'd see and be a part of, how many men's life's work you'd see crumble and fall. Heck, just 1500 up to now would cover dozens of paradigm shifts. And that doesn't get into personal relationships and losses. C.S. Lewis said it well through Digory Kirke: "I don't think I'd like to live on and on forever after everyone I know has died. I'd rather live an ordinary time and die and go to Heaven."
Yeah I would love to go to heaven if it existed. Not so poignant when you don't believe that.
@@CarrotConsumer But Tolkien did. Hence his less than rosy view of immortality.
Wise words
Men: I feel a sense of urgency in this matter!
Elves: Whatever.
I see what you're doing there at 16:48 .
We've all fallen and can't get up.
The thing is, elves never die. They can even come back to life, like Glorfindel.
Elves can not understand the nature of death and mortality. And the presence of mortal men, who grow up, grow old and die or die from sickness, that makes elves sad. Because they can not understand what happens to those humans. Elves don't know sickness.
Elves are a part of the world, for as long as the world will exist. Humans die. And exept a few, will never come back to life. It is the same as dwarves, only that dwarves live longer than humans.
And the cursed dead wish to be released so that their souls can find peace.
I think, the human mind is not made for immortality.
great video thx
I think the main point of death being a gift is the whole not being bound forever to the circles of this world thing. Men are not tied to Arda as Elves are.
Men might have not become so corrupted by Morgoth if the Valar hadn't just taken off for Aman after the whole lamp incident. If they hadn't chickened out and continued to fight Morgoth, things could've been different for everyone.
We should have more lawyers as Tolkien Geeks)
Do men really die? In Tolkien's world they are not bound forever to the circles of the world like elves and dwarves. And as Aragorn says to Arwen, "beyond is more than just memory". That is one of the points raised by the last conversation between Arwen and Elrond, that their parting would extend forever. An unanswered question that I don't think Tolkien ever addressed was an end of time, when the world is unmade, or made anew. Might there be some far time where elves, dwarves, ents and men are brought together in a perfect creation without the rebellion of Morgoth or the others he corrupted.
The issue with comparing lotr gift of men to real life is that in real life we really don't know if there's an afterlife. Which means that extending the lives we have seems a lot more acceptable.
In lotr the afterlife of men may be a mystery but it is there. There are ghosts and magic and wizards, you have the valar and elves. It's easier for men of lotr to accept death as another step. It took sauron in order to frighten men. We do that to ourselves naturally out of fear of the unknown
For us it might be the last step and there may be nothing. It makes the gift of men feel wrong to us more than it should to the humans of Tolkien's world.
The real thing Tolkien probably insinuates is that you have to have faith maybe? I'm not sure. All I know is that our real world is more mysterious than fiction and we may never know what comes next.
I think we shouldn't try frown on extending our lives in our world. It shouldn't be a bad thing. Sacrifice is bad yes but blood treatments are not sinister. In fact humans have already extended our lives just by being healthier than humans of the old days who only lived to 40 years old. Now we can make it to 100 which is drastically more and nobody sees it as bad. We only have one life to be with those we love and though we all die, we can at least prolong our happiness
Whither the swords? Haven't sold them, eh?
Oh no, wouldn’t dream of it. I’m just in a transition at the moment. I should have a better backdrop in a few months.
Very Lovecraft actually
Yes. Immortality goes against our nature as humanity. This world is given to everyone who has mortality. I seen many individuals chose cryogenic sleep to extend their life. It really reminds me of the wight from barrow down. Even transhumanism as mutilated orcs. Without changes we are doomed to dwindle. The taste of food wouldn't be as exciting as when you were a child. Or the constant of day and night cycle. Would become stale and mundane. Even this universe isn't constant as we strolled on entropy to a very slow death. Continent shifts, the sun ages into a red giant. The world sterile and lifeless. as the universe turn cold. Stars dies and galaxy fading. That's when even the valar would be envied the gift of men.
I would choose a numenorian lives. Where my mind is still sharpened and my body is strong even closing to death.
I really have to question your logic on this. Men were always mortal, they weren't immortal and then someone shat the bed, and everybody was cursed to have a mortal life afterwards. Iluvatar made them mortal when they first awoke. The Gift of Men is not to be bound by the spheres of Arda, unlike the Elves who are bound by the spheres of Arda. Unlike the Valar who are bound by the spheres of Arda. Men are not. When Men die, their Fea goes beyond the spheres of Arda, they are not tied to it. That is the gift Eru gave them. And in that, they are more like Eru than even the Elves could imagine. And Tolkien had said that even this Gift the Powers will envy Men. The Valar would grow jealous of this gift. I dunno where you're getting this from, but it's very wrong.
Tolkien wrote about it, that’s where I’m getting it from.
An interesting argument, and I speak as an atheist.
I'm sorry, I'm eating ghost pepper burritos. I can't really concentrate on what you're saying. I want to know if you could you please repeat all of that... Louder. Thanks.