I see tons of Facebooks know-it-alls that will claim you're just wrong about this blower cam and turbo cam stuff. Then not show any convincing evidence (or evidence at all) that disproves your "All cam are boost cams" statement. Keep up the great content and tests!
These being positive displacement SCers this wouldn't apply to a centrifugal. I'd like to see a test like this run on a Vortech or Procharger. IMO, they make boost cams for a reason. Higher LSA, tighter overlap, more exhaust bias in the duration... they do what they're intended to do. Work better.
Hey I've got it. 💡Well, with Cams, each like know what the engine is.Natch, Blown, Turbonator. Just like light beams know when the observer is looking for light to be a wavelength or a particle. Then it just suddenly changes to be contrary....💡😁🗺️🌐🌏🌃
I just ran the overlap calculator and the N/A cam actually does not have any overlap, it is actually -2 degrees overlap so there is no boost bleeding off and mixture going out the header.
I love this video, I've had this conversation with lots of people. The way I explain it is that there is a preset amount of airflow that is going to come out of that supercharger regardless of what type it is. The pulleys and the size of the supercharger are the deciding factor of how much air is going to come through it. All that air is going to go through the engine so the cam is the deciding factor of how much pressure is needed to force all that air through the engine. Some cams are optimized for better airflow at the lower RPM and some at the higher RPM. If the engine is able to use more air than obviously it's going to take less pressure to vram the air through that engine. What happens when an engine is willing to accept more air? It's willing to make more power. If you took this same blower and pulley setup and put it on a 5.3 with the same cam you would be making a lot less power and a lot more boost because that 5.3 can't accept as much air as the 6.2.
3:27 what valve spring tool is that? i really like that design. tried googling "WPG valve spring tool" but i realized after WPG= Westech Performance Group lol
I think both those OE cams where designed to lessen the load on the production parts and drivetrain.. in other words GM wants those engines to “not” blow up the automatic transmission, the stock clutch or scatter the engine before the warranty period ends! Max power anyone can make, having that engine last 60k miles without needing a broom and a shovel to pick up the pieces… that’s the bean counters minimum quality parts vs warranty costs vs shrapnel taking priority…
The other thing in particular with the gm blower cams is the Atkinson Cycle valve timing made into them to restore some semblance of economy at cruising rpm
I would say the NA cam was just more efficient across the RPM range. The BTR stg 3 cam making more power at the top is because it's designed to be efficient at the top of the rpm range. I think the BTR stg3 cam would have continued to make power up to if not beyond 7K rpm.
Richard you have no idea how many times I’ve seen people replace camshafts that were really good, more efficient! But because they lost boost they removed it before even dynoing or going to the track 🙄🙄🙄🙄! People/Morons still don’t understand that boost is a restriction #! Maybe you should get into explaining the temperatures, pressures, BSFC #s that show up on every dyno pull! Than hopefully they will start to understand that less boost & more power is good 👍🏻, because your making the engine more efficient! Thanks for the great videos! Blowing all the boost out of the exhaust 😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣! Maybe you should put that reverse pattern cam in it to really bottle it up & raise boost 🙄🙄🙄🙄!
Great information, does the increase overlap less boost of the NA cam mean that it should be less incline to detonate? I would liked to have seen a BTR stage 3 boost and a stage 3 NA so size would have been similar. Keep up the good work?
Higher cylinder pressures will induce knock as heat and pressure can ignite fuel, but with that being said running something like an interchiller or higher octane fuel will drastically reduce this chance, other things that can help are using a thermal blanket on your charger, running a bigger coolant reservoir for your charger, some people will run water foggers, ethanol, methanol etc all these options can help negate most issues you’ll have with detonation that is heat/pressure related
We were running a BTR stg3 on a LSA motor with a lower pulley swap 9.17... Switched out to the BTR stg4 LSA/LS9 cam put a 2.55 upper pulley... Stroked to 419... The car had been running #12 boost and now is #14... We added 90whp and as much torque... I too think Mr. Tooley knows what he is doing. I am not a big fan of restriction and heat so was thinking "porting" heads but given my specs both the builder and you said "naw, they flow well enough." Given that the boost level rose slightly I think that was sound advice and saved me some cash for other parts! Thanks again Richard!
I will give you my theory and please free to comment. Frist, I suspect the 224 cam would make more power NA then the other cams, even the BTR Stg3 up to 6000 (ish) rpm. The 224 is just not designed to operate much above that. As you have proven time and time again, more NA power means more power under boost. But why more power at lower boost? I think it is because some of boost IS leaking out the exhaust valve due to increased valve overlap. This is not a bad thing (up to a point) because it helps exhaust gas scavenging but more importantly it gets the air column moving. Relative to each other, there is a point in the cam timing where with the blower cam is at 10 psi but zero flow above a close intake valve while the NA cam is at 8 psi and air is already flowing through the open intake valve due to the greater overlap. This results in better cylinder scavenging and filling and is the reason NA cams tend to have tighter LSAs. The lower boost from the positive displacement blowers is because it cannot keep up with the additional air flow through the engine due to valve overlap.
Any chance you're keeping an eye open for GM/Ford turbo 4s in the junkyard? The warranty is almost up on my GM LTG motor, and I'm sure the Focus crowd would love to see comparisons.
Hello Richard, First time commenter. For my street car occasional drag strip… What’s your opinion with a Summit 8706R1 turbo cam (226-230 dur. with 600-575 lift with 113 LSA) in a 408 with Trick Flow 235cc heads and a Whipple 4.0? Should I run that cam as I already have it or buy a cam designed for 4.0 stroke and a PD blower? Thank you.
Now this was one of my favorite recent videos...maybe because of the whipple combo I'm building but the super chop cam I have I was wondering how well it could be if I used it on the blower motor 😀. Anyways it taught me something and I'm always trying to figure out more stuff
Ive been watching your channel learning a lot, especially when engine builder chose a 224 236 118 lsa custom comp grind. I wanted to know why that choice on an lt1 416 stroker with pd blower. Now i understand the numerous reasons why.
Richard, Thank You, Thank You and THANK YOU! I have tried to explain less boost pressure more power for a given combination until I was blue in the face! Many still didn’t get it and I’m tired of trying to convince them! From now on I’m just going to link your video and PROVE IT! MORE FLOW = MORE POWER, it’s all about how well you are filling the cylinders! Have you ever used forced induction on the LS3/525 crate motor with the "ASA" Cam, Lift: .525" Int. / .525" Exh. w/1.7 Ratio Rocker Arms, Duration: 226° Int / 236° Exh. @ .050" Lift, 110° Lobe Centerline. Any suggestions for a better cam in a naturally aspirated street/strip toy 2600# Cobra Kit Car with 6sp and 3.55 gears?
Ok Richard I found my way over here. This was right up my alley thanks. Currently have a "big NA" cam in my LS3, with a 2650 blower. Haha its upping my 4k converter out to 6k which isn't working very well for any type of driving. *CrowCams 871287 (227/244 .607/.610 114lsa) So I'm in the process of putting in a more reasonable size (modified LSA converter) - but we're unsure how well that will work with the big na cam (might push on the converter too much) So yeah was looking for a blower cam, but my mate was suggesting the sloppy stage 2 as the "BEST" cam ..... but i still don't know lol Hopefully my "NA" cam just works with the converter as I don't want to really spend a heap of money to not really make a huge difference to power (10-20hp difference meh)
@@richardholdener1727 Sorry yeah no The 227 cam and 4k converter worked perfect pre blower ... but once the added torque of the blower was added yeah thats when we've had issues. Just hoping that a smaller stall will work with the current 227 cam I thought the cam was big-ish, maybe not on the intake side of things... but with combination with the exhaust side and .600+ lift I was going to go with texas speeds f35 but bailed out.
So why then are there cams that are designed for a PD blower or for turbos if any cam will work? Why does boost drop with certain cams? (Saying it’s more efficient is not a good enough answer; what is physically going on in the engine?)
THE BOOST DROPS BECAUSE THE NA MOTOR MAKES MORE POWER AND THIS USES MORE OF THE AIRFLOW FROM THE TURBO (OR BLOWER), THE RESULT IS A DROP IN BOOST (NOT ALWAYS ON A TURBO APPLICATION BECAUSE THE WASTE GATE OPENS AT A SPECIFIC BOOST LEVEL). THINK ABOUT RUNNING THE SAME BLOWER (AND BLOWER SPEED) ON A BIGGER MOTOR-THE BOOST WOULD BE LOWER (THE MORE POWERFUL CAM DOES THE SAME THING)
I have a cam motion ls3 stage 3 cam (220/230-.553”/.553”-117+4). Worked great on my iron 11.15:1 ls3……surprisingly it worked even better when I added a lsa supercharger with fic 850cc injectors and 2.45” pulley……I love this baby cam, best $350 I ever spent…just trying to figure out what plugs to run, it’s controlled by a terminator x max if that makes any difference
Boost is just air that can’t make it thru the motor. More power with less manifold pressure is always a win. Nothing makes it more black and white than when using a supercharger. The consistent airflow run to run makes the boost vs horsepower data cut and dry. These types of tests with turbochargers can be misleading. Depending on the type of boost control being used, the change in backpressure, or an electronic controller doing whatever it has to do to see a certain manifold pressure, can often skew the data regarding the airflow efficiency changes of the engine.
Every time I hear that opening music, I want to dance naked and film porn 🤣. Now that I'm done embarrassing myself, I love this video. I'm a fan and student of positive displacement blowers. The snappiness of low end torque is exciting. I've heard you say many times that when you add a cam and lower boost and gain power, that it's good. Trying to explain that to others always gets me in arguments lol. But I noticed you said it's not good to raise the boost back up. I'm a little lost on that part. Every blower has an efficiency range the work best at certain boost levels. If the cam lowers it, and even though you're making more power, it should in fact make even more power if the boost was raised back up? To at least get it into it's efficiency range.
@@richardholdener1727 basically engine a has ported or aftermarket heads and a large cam and makes 750 hp on 8lbs of boost and engine b has stock heads and stock cam and makes 750 hp on 14lbs of boost. The difference in iat's at the end of a dyno pull between the two setups running the same blower and heat exchanger system. When people say heads and cam are less important with boost and you can get the same power by just adding more boost it would be interesting to see what the tradeoff is in increased iat's.
hahahaha bro... LS engines are def NOT boat anchors lol the worst LS engines (Gen 3 4.8s I guess) are still damn impressive with a cam, springs, and boost lol
@@richardholdener1727 Would be interesting to just hang a MAF in a 6" pipe on the inlet of your test motors and measure the throughput. Data is good! GM LS cartridge style sensors in a 5" pipe can easily measure 150 lbs/min of air if not more without restriction
The boost is leaking into the combustion chamber . Lower boost caused by intake valves open longer . I liked the torque curve on the na cam.
no leaks
I see tons of Facebooks know-it-alls that will claim you're just wrong about this blower cam and turbo cam stuff. Then not show any convincing evidence (or evidence at all) that disproves your "All cam are boost cams" statement. Keep up the great content and tests!
These being positive displacement SCers this wouldn't apply to a centrifugal. I'd like to see a test like this run on a Vortech or Procharger.
IMO, they make boost cams for a reason. Higher LSA, tighter overlap, more exhaust bias in the duration... they do what they're intended to do. Work better.
the cam does the same thing na, pd blower or cent blower.
Hey I've got it. 💡Well, with Cams, each like know what the engine is.Natch, Blown, Turbonator. Just like light beams know when the observer is looking for light to be a wavelength or a particle. Then it just suddenly changes to be contrary....💡😁🗺️🌐🌏🌃
I just ran the overlap calculator and the N/A cam actually does not have any overlap, it is actually -2 degrees overlap so there is no boost bleeding off and mixture going out the header.
194k 🐿🐿
Let's take a minute to appreciate that torque curve. It's flat as Kansas!
I love this video, I've had this conversation with lots of people. The way I explain it is that there is a preset amount of airflow that is going to come out of that supercharger regardless of what type it is. The pulleys and the size of the supercharger are the deciding factor of how much air is going to come through it. All that air is going to go through the engine so the cam is the deciding factor of how much pressure is needed to force all that air through the engine. Some cams are optimized for better airflow at the lower RPM and some at the higher RPM. If the engine is able to use more air than obviously it's going to take less pressure to vram the air through that engine. What happens when an engine is willing to accept more air? It's willing to make more power.
If you took this same blower and pulley setup and put it on a 5.3 with the same cam you would be making a lot less power and a lot more boost because that 5.3 can't accept as much air as the 6.2.
Personally I blame squirrels
SQUIRRELS!!!!!!!!!
3:27 what valve spring tool is that? i really like that design. tried googling "WPG valve spring tool" but i realized after WPG= Westech Performance Group lol
Makes me wonder how the Truck Norris cam would stack up.
What would the difference be between a ss2 and a btr stage 4 blower cam on ls3 headed 6.0
a lot
I think both those OE cams where designed to lessen the load on the production parts and drivetrain.. in other words GM wants those engines to “not” blow up the automatic transmission, the stock clutch or scatter the engine before the warranty period ends! Max power anyone can make, having that engine last 60k miles without needing a broom and a shovel to pick up the pieces… that’s the bean counters minimum quality parts vs warranty costs vs shrapnel taking priority…
The other thing in particular with the gm blower cams is the Atkinson Cycle valve timing made into them to restore some semblance of economy at cruising rpm
is that the low carb cycle?
Love that low rippem torque of the 224. I have a six two in my caddy pickup. Looks like a perfect towing beast.
I would say the NA cam was just more efficient across the RPM range. The BTR stg 3 cam making more power at the top is because it's designed to be efficient at the top of the rpm range. I think the BTR stg3 cam would have continued to make power up to if not beyond 7K rpm.
Just got my supercharger cam yesterday.
I always watch your channel. So much information, You always teach people what they want to know. Awesome content as per usual Richard.👋💯🤟👍🆒🔥
What do you about the btr stage 2 pds cam
what about it
Richard you have no idea how many times I’ve seen people replace camshafts that were really good, more efficient! But because they lost boost they removed it before even dynoing or going to the track 🙄🙄🙄🙄! People/Morons still don’t understand that boost is a restriction #! Maybe you should get into explaining the temperatures, pressures, BSFC #s that show up on every dyno pull! Than hopefully they will start to understand that less boost & more power is good 👍🏻, because your making the engine more efficient! Thanks for the great videos! Blowing all the boost out of the exhaust 😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣! Maybe you should put that reverse pattern cam in it to really bottle it up & raise boost 🙄🙄🙄🙄!
Great video richard. How is the idle on that crane cam looking for something that sounds idles stock and i know the ls9 cam idles like stock ?
the 224 cam does not idle like stock
@@richardholdener1727 :(
Great information, does the increase overlap less boost of the NA cam mean that it should be less incline to detonate? I would liked to have seen a BTR stage 3 boost and a stage 3 NA so size would have been similar. Keep up the good work?
Higher cylinder pressures will induce knock as heat and pressure can ignite fuel, but with that being said running something like an interchiller or higher octane fuel will drastically reduce this chance, other things that can help are using a thermal blanket on your charger, running a bigger coolant reservoir for your charger, some people will run water foggers, ethanol, methanol etc all these options can help negate most issues you’ll have with detonation that is heat/pressure related
Mmm-cams….
We were running a BTR stg3 on a LSA motor with a lower pulley swap 9.17... Switched out to the BTR stg4 LSA/LS9 cam put a 2.55 upper pulley... Stroked to 419... The car had been running #12 boost and now is #14... We added 90whp and as much torque... I too think Mr. Tooley knows what he is doing. I am not a big fan of restriction and heat so was thinking "porting" heads but given my specs both the builder and you said "naw, they flow well enough." Given that the boost level rose slightly I think that was sound advice and saved me some cash for other parts! Thanks again Richard!
I will give you my theory and please free to comment. Frist, I suspect the 224 cam would make more power NA then the other cams, even the BTR Stg3 up to 6000 (ish) rpm. The 224 is just not designed to operate much above that. As you have proven time and time again, more NA power means more power under boost. But why more power at lower boost? I think it is because some of boost IS leaking out the exhaust valve due to increased valve overlap. This is not a bad thing (up to a point) because it helps exhaust gas scavenging but more importantly it gets the air column moving. Relative to each other, there is a point in the cam timing where with the blower cam is at 10 psi but zero flow above a close intake valve while the NA cam is at 8 psi and air is already flowing through the open intake valve due to the greater overlap. This results in better cylinder scavenging and filling and is the reason NA cams tend to have tighter LSAs. The lower boost from the positive displacement blowers is because it cannot keep up with the additional air flow through the engine due to valve overlap.
Thanks for the info @Richard Holdener I'm going to pair the Summit "Ghost" cam with a LSA blower, and that Crane Cam is really close in specs.
Any chance you're keeping an eye open for GM/Ford turbo 4s in the junkyard? The warranty is almost up on my GM LTG motor, and I'm sure the Focus crowd would love to see comparisons.
Hello Richard, First time commenter. For my street car occasional drag strip… What’s your opinion with a Summit 8706R1 turbo cam (226-230 dur. with 600-575 lift with 113 LSA) in a 408 with Trick Flow 235cc heads and a Whipple 4.0? Should I run that cam as I already have it or buy a cam designed for 4.0 stroke and a PD blower? Thank you.
it will work fine
Now this was one of my favorite recent videos...maybe because of the whipple combo I'm building but the super chop cam I have I was wondering how well it could be if I used it on the blower motor 😀. Anyways it taught me something and I'm always trying to figure out more stuff
Ive been watching your channel learning a lot, especially when engine builder chose a 224 236 118 lsa custom comp grind. I wanted to know why that choice on an lt1 416 stroker with pd blower. Now i understand the numerous reasons why.
cam guys like to run the wide lsa on pd blower motors
Awesome vid as usual! Any idea what blower I could put on a 6.2 gen 4 with Trick Flow 225 heads? Maybe 2.3L or larger.
LOTS OF CHOICES
Where the sbf at Boss
When will we see some vvt stuff? Thanks
Richard, Thank You, Thank You and THANK YOU!
I have tried to explain less boost pressure more power for a given combination until I was blue in the face! Many still didn’t get it and I’m tired of trying to convince them! From now on I’m just going to link your video and PROVE IT! MORE FLOW = MORE POWER, it’s all about how well you are filling the cylinders!
Have you ever used forced induction on the LS3/525 crate motor with the "ASA" Cam, Lift: .525" Int. / .525" Exh. w/1.7 Ratio Rocker Arms, Duration: 226° Int / 236° Exh. @ .050" Lift, 110° Lobe Centerline. Any suggestions for a better cam in a naturally aspirated street/strip toy 2600# Cobra Kit Car with 6sp and 3.55 gears?
that cam-like any cam, will work with boost
Ok Richard I found my way over here. This was right up my alley thanks.
Currently have a "big NA" cam in my LS3, with a 2650 blower. Haha its upping my 4k converter out to 6k which isn't working very well for any type of driving.
*CrowCams 871287 (227/244 .607/.610 114lsa)
So I'm in the process of putting in a more reasonable size (modified LSA converter) - but we're unsure how well that will work with the big na cam (might push on the converter too much)
So yeah was looking for a blower cam, but my mate was suggesting the sloppy stage 2 as the "BEST" cam ..... but i still don't know lol
Hopefully my "NA" cam just works with the converter as I don't want to really spend a heap of money to not really make a huge difference to power (10-20hp difference meh)
YOUR CAM IS NOT UPPING YOUR CONVERTER-227 IS NOT A BIG CAM FOR AN LS3-YOUR BLOWER IS BLOWING PAST THE CONVERTER
@@richardholdener1727 Sorry yeah no
The 227 cam and 4k converter worked perfect pre blower ... but once the added torque of the blower was added yeah thats when we've had issues.
Just hoping that a smaller stall will work with the current 227 cam
I thought the cam was big-ish, maybe not on the intake side of things... but with combination with the exhaust side and .600+ lift
I was going to go with texas speeds f35 but bailed out.
So why then are there cams that are designed for a PD blower or for turbos if any cam will work? Why does boost drop with certain cams? (Saying it’s more efficient is not a good enough answer; what is physically going on in the engine?)
THE BOOST DROPS BECAUSE THE NA MOTOR MAKES MORE POWER AND THIS USES MORE OF THE AIRFLOW FROM THE TURBO (OR BLOWER), THE RESULT IS A DROP IN BOOST (NOT ALWAYS ON A TURBO APPLICATION BECAUSE THE WASTE GATE OPENS AT A SPECIFIC BOOST LEVEL). THINK ABOUT RUNNING THE SAME BLOWER (AND BLOWER SPEED) ON A BIGGER MOTOR-THE BOOST WOULD BE LOWER (THE MORE POWERFUL CAM DOES THE SAME THING)
I would like to see the same duration NA cam as the boost cam
The slight power increase at the very top is due to less valve overlap that aids in keeping the air charge in the cylinder at high rpms
Wanna see the RPM Cam against a BTR
I have a cam motion ls3 stage 3 cam (220/230-.553”/.553”-117+4). Worked great on my iron 11.15:1 ls3……surprisingly it worked even better when I added a lsa supercharger with fic 850cc injectors and 2.45” pulley……I love this baby cam, best $350 I ever spent…just trying to figure out what plugs to run, it’s controlled by a terminator x max if that makes any difference
you need 2 steps colder than stock plugs in that
224 for the win
Boost is just air that can’t make it thru the motor. More power with less manifold pressure is always a win. Nothing makes it more black and white than when using a supercharger. The consistent airflow run to run makes the boost vs horsepower data cut and dry.
These types of tests with turbochargers can be misleading. Depending on the type of boost control being used, the change in backpressure, or an electronic controller doing whatever it has to do to see a certain manifold pressure, can often skew the data regarding the airflow efficiency changes of the engine.
Excellent way of explaining the boost flow connection.
Do a carb nitrous 6.2
Right on
Brian is not going to be happy with you.
why
@@richardholdener1727 Just kidding Richard, but your NA cam was surprisingly equivalent to the BTR blower cam.
Every time I hear that opening music, I want to dance naked and film porn 🤣. Now that I'm done embarrassing myself, I love this video. I'm a fan and student of positive displacement blowers. The snappiness of low end torque is exciting.
I've heard you say many times that when you add a cam and lower boost and gain power, that it's good. Trying to explain that to others always gets me in arguments lol. But I noticed you said it's not good to raise the boost back up. I'm a little lost on that part. Every blower has an efficiency range the work best at certain boost levels. If the cam lowers it, and even though you're making more power, it should in fact make even more power if the boost was raised back up? To at least get it into it's efficiency range.
I wonder if that small drop in power at high rpm would happen with a centrifugal supercharger?
that is camshaft-it would happen with any blower or turbo
Less restriction
always awesome !!!
I'd like to see a test on iat's in say 700-800 hp supercharged stock cam vs big cam and maybe better heads and less boost making close to the same hp.
I don't quite understand what specific test you are asking for
@@richardholdener1727 basically engine a has ported or aftermarket heads and a large cam and makes 750 hp on 8lbs of boost and engine b has stock heads and stock cam and makes 750 hp on 14lbs of boost. The difference in iat's at the end of a dyno pull between the two setups running the same blower and heat exchanger system. When people say heads and cam are less important with boost and you can get the same power by just adding more boost it would be interesting to see what the tradeoff is in increased iat's.
Love your videos but really tired of the Generic Motor Crap boat anchor content
hahahaha bro... LS engines are def NOT boat anchors lol the worst LS engines (Gen 3 4.8s I guess) are still damn impressive with a cam, springs, and boost lol
Last night chat, Richard listed the engines planned...SBF, Magnum..etc
His testing applies to 99% of motors if not all motors. Just an air pump.
Boost is worthless, give me airmass and density
I'll check my air mass & density gauge
@@richardholdener1727 Would be interesting to just hang a MAF in a 6" pipe on the inlet of your test motors and measure the throughput. Data is good! GM LS cartridge style sensors in a 5" pipe can easily measure 150 lbs/min of air if not more without restriction