In real life the secret to damascus steel has been discovered (meaning, we know how they made it at the time). There was a single mine that had some unusual impurities that resulted in carbon nanotubes forming in the steel. The "lost art" wasn't "wow we can't make steel like this today", it was more like "we don't know how people made it with the technology available at the time". But like I said, that's been solved now. We've always been able to make modern steel that's stronger than damascus. We can also easily duplicate it using modern materials and methods, that was never the question.
..... Which means the secret to how it was done is still lost, the knowlage of how on3 can do it now or even imprive it is a whole nother story then figuring out, how they achived it with conoleatlh different tools and knowlage
Yes, this is another of those old saws of 'lost technology' that are ... not lost. Pretty cool that somebody figured out this process a long time ago but we're far surpassed things like Damascus steel and Roman concrete.
@@SingingSealRiana Way to completely ignore the second half of the comment haha. The method to create damascus steel is not lost, and it's not that special, don't believe everything you hear in a UA-cam video. It was just a higher than normal carbon content iron, this high carbon content made it harder to forge, resulting in the famous pattern it has, it's still worse than modern steel.
I'm inclined to believe that the original Lightbringer forged by the First Azhor Ahai was the first proto-Valyrian steel sword, acquiring its magical properties by accident. There's a precedent for accidental magic performed through sacrifice, like how Dany accidentally performed blood sacrifice to hatch her dragon eggs. Lightbringer may have been the first Azhor Ahai's personal pet project that was used in the final stages of its forging as he murdered his wife, and thr discovery of its magical properties began the ancient magical and alchemical research into forging what was later called Valyrian steel.
Hi, knivemaker here. 1:40 this is not correct. Damascus steel is well known and used method of creating steel composite. This technique was never really lost. This method takes two kinds of steel, softer and harder (which is dependant of amount of carbon inside the iron crystals). Then you will layer these two and you bend it over and over. This is what creates both pattern (lighter and darker steel) but also excellent performance (because this alloy has advantages of both harder and softer steel). Just felt like correction is in place. I really love your videos, by the way. Be well!
The thing lost is the knowlage of how they did it back then, the fact one knows how to do it now with completely different tools and science at hand dies not answer that
@@davidtatro7457 Beat me to it. The thing is that the secret to Wootz steel wasn't lost either. The blacksmiths in India made it the traditional way into at least the 19th century.
I look forward to these every week. Last week, you were late and I was sad… but then you came through and my heart smiled. Thank you for all the work you put into this content.
ASo fun fact in Moby Dick the spear Ahab had made for killing Moby Dick was quenched in blood. So the idea of blood in forging giving the metal more properties was still around in he 1800s long after the blast furnace made steel production both much cheaper and consistently repeatable.
I think the “secrets” to making Damascus steel (or wootz steel more accurately) is not lost. Indeed, there’s many dozens of UA-cam videos about wootz and Damascus
It is kinda lost, cause they cant figure out how it was done back then, the faft they can do it now with entirely diffetent tools and knowlage at hand does not answer that question
@@SingingSealRiana It seems like they had some good ore, and they knew how to heat it up really hot and get the impurities out and they knew how to turn that into strong steel by folding it over and over. I think that is it basically. There was no magic secret or anything, the skill was lost but it's not magic and we can do it today. We don't know exactly the process they used, okay, fine, but we know what is required and can infer that they used a method that would achieve the required results.
There was a TV program years back (it might have been Nova's "Secrets of the Samurai Sword" from 2007 but I'm not sure) which showed a Japanese swordsmith making one using the traditional methods like stacking the fuel in a precise manner, carefully watching the fire and the metal until they achieved just the right color, manual hammering, etc. Then they gave the exacting attributes and specifications to a Western metal expert and had him make a sword using modern methods like a gas furnace, thermometers, machine hammering, etc. The sword he eventually produced wasn't very pretty but it passed all the traditional Japanese proving tests for hard edge, flexibility, blade strength, and cutting ability. So the Western guy made a "Japanese" sword just not in the Japanese method.
@@dlxmarks These types of processes weren't exclusive to Japan. Folding steel to remove impurities was also done in Europe, as well as composite blades using a hard edge and a softer spine.
@@no_nameyouknowNo that is not it at all. Wootz steel is very different. As I understand it has impurities in the ore that causes very special crystal structure. They are not forged at all like normal blades. What you are talking about is ordinary folding to diffuse out impurities and that was known by blacksmiths all over. They have been able to recreate something similar but not quite Wootz steel. It is not a magical steel and modern steels are better but it is an interesting piece of history.
I feel that the secrets of Valyrian steel will never be revealed by George. He said that he’ll never tell the details about everything that’s in the game of thrones world.
It's a steel rooted in blood and fire magic and we have legends of the creation of such to fight the Others, it's pretty easy to guess how it's made...
The detailed description of how heavily worked and folded Valyrian steel is in the books reminds me of that scene from S4E1 of _GoT_ in which Ice is melted down and Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper are cast from its metal. So many morons tried to defend that with the usual cop-out excuses like "It's fantasy," "It's magic," or "It's only a show" but later Benioff and Weiss admitted in the DVD commentary that this is a stupid way to make a sword but they loved the casting scene in the first _Conan_ movie and wanted to copy it.
That's a neat idea, and helps justify the material being exclusive to the Valerians as human sacrifice wouldn't have been a particularly big issue for many GoT civilizations, and presumably they also would have figured out the methods to make the steel, where that the case.
@@resurgam_b7 it seems to answer the reason why the qohoric can't reacreate valerian steel despite possibly having the knowledge to make it but only rework it.
@@jonesreviews4613 Ooh, that's also possible, though... it opens up the rather unsettling possibility of the riders purposefully having many illegitimate children specifically to later use them to create more valerian steel 😬
This would suggest that Valyrian steel predates Valyria by several millennia, given that the Long Night was 8,000 years ago and Valyria was 'young' 5,000 years ago, or that the timeline is wrong for at least one of these things
It's possible Valyrian steel was an attempt at recreating the metal of the sword for the legend. Possibly the Valyrians came by a more complete copy of the legends. We know there are similar stories throughout the world (Last Hero, Azor Ahai)
Honestly, my favorite hypothesis for the original forging of Valyrian Steel is that the iron (and possibly the carbon) that went into the steel comes from the blood of the sacrifices. Hundreds of souls, each of them rendered down to the miniscule amount of iron they had in their bodies for the blade they were forged into. The fact that you used the blood of the sacrificed in the forging process probably also meant that the spell held more strongly. The sheer amount of sacrifices needed, plus the likely hot flames that could only come from a volcano or a dragon, are probably what has prevented someone from figuring out how to forge a new one. Still, just a hypothesis, but one I like. I feel it would fit in Martin's setting.
I seem to recall that the smith that turned Ice into two swords said something about the spells now working much more effectively. This ties into the powers of the warlocks Daenerys targaryen deals with increasing, and the sudden increase in the amount and potency of wildfire alchemists were able to make. I understood the implication was the return of dragons to the world had brought back magic with them.
Hi Robert. LA has been quite stressful this week. Thx for bringing me back to Westeros. Shoutout to House Dayne (even though we lack a valerian steel sword)
7:12 I think you've overlooking a much simpler alternative here: they simply have a store of pre-forged links Ive commented before on the possible need to recover them from dead maesters, too.
In the song of ice and fire, the world they exist in has many types and levels of magic. Correspondingly, different types of everything else. Steel included. Rough forged iron from the people of the wilds. Better quality alloy steel from smaller holdfasts. "Castle forged" steel from large ruling family castles such as winterfell or the twins. Then the street of steel in the capital. A mixture of talent and background as well as knowledge. Skip over the sea, to the free city of bravos and things change as well. Magic that may be outlawed or banned in westeros are practiced openly in bravos.
Real, genuine, old damascus looks like rain on water, and we don't truly know how it was made. People can do some incredible things with pattern welding as a forging technique, but its not quite the same look. Performance wise, we can definitely make better steel though
As a part of my own writing, I've contemplated lost secrets of metallurgy, there is a modern idea for experimental future materials, meta materials, composites made with very finely controlled added elements, down to the atomic level. There is also a secondary idea about tying strings of atoms into literal knots to change the overall properties of molecules, the idea that springs to mind is that a magic could help create these meta materials, something that is lost, but would be a property unable to be either discerned or removed from the original material.
Looks like the ASOIAF characters are also victims of the widespread myth that folding steel forever makes it super. Yes, it does help in making dodgy pre-industrial steel less dodgy (eg, spread out the impurities since a chain is only as strong as its weakest link), but only up to a point, after which you start making your sword weaker again (eg, excessive decarburization).
Man that's an interesting theory...obsidian as a component of the alloy. A metalloceramic blade would be much lighter for certain, and would be able to have a much finer edge due to the smaller crystal structures.
I think Dragon Steel swords are a red herring, yes they work against white walkers, but even if you learned how they were made the cost and time would be too much to make it possible to arm very many soldiers, and GRRM is not going to have the answer to his epic be “find and build a super weapon to fix your problems”, if anything it’s the opposite of that. Weapons are not going to be the answer.
That Valyrian steel necklace Daemon gave Rhaenyra: it was made of some hundred pieces or so. Does that mean it took 100 or so human sacrifices to make? Honestly I can see the Valyrian nobility doing that. Sinister bling, sending out a ‘look how many slaves I can happily waste’ message. Terrifying if true…
Its worth noting that despite obsidian being referred to as "dragon glass" dragons dont necessarily have anything to do with it's creation, so just because its referred to as "dragon steel" doesnt mean that dragons are a part of its creation either and could simply be the steel of the dragon lords.
I think it's because both require high heat when created normally, but dragon fire is high heat + magic, so creates the items infused with magical properties. So it could mean literal dragon fire, or maybe just a blacksmith which infused them with his own magic and named it after them.
Correct. As we've seen and heard from the characters, obsidian is a glass that can burn, generate heat like a dragon thus being call "dragonglass". So a dragonsteel must be a steel with the same properties as dragonglass, a steel that can burn, generate heat like a dragon, a fire magic blade that can kill the Others just like dragonglass and we've heard a legend about such steel blade : The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife's blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame." Clydas blinked. "A sword that makes its own heat …"
Its probably going to be another Elric reference. There are souls in the valyrian steel swords. NissaNissa is proof of this. That's why melting the throne may come to pass.
Damascus steel is made my alternating steels of different strengths and purities. Most modern sword smiths use MIg or TIg welding to make a "blank", a brick of alternating medals, that is eventually forged into a laminated blade. My theory of Dragon or Vialyrian steel is that steel and dragon glass is welded together, the magic transmuting the obsidian into something that is workable like metal. Quenching the blade in a specific blood would also lend another magical aspect.
"Damascus steel is made my alternating steels of different strengths and purities" No, that's called pattern welding, and the pattern it produces is commonly called Damascus. It has little in common with Wootz steel, aside from both having iron and carbon.
The secret to Damascus steel is NOT lost: it is still manufactured to this date. It is a process of folding metal during the forging process and there it develops its superior properties
It doesn't "develop superior properties", it merely gets rid of impurities in the material. Or to put it more accurately, it spreads the impurities more evenly, to avoid pockets. Given steel of good purity, you don't need to fold it, and it will be just as good, or better.
Fold forging was not unique to the production of Damascus steel, and cultures throughout the world used it. Damascus steel was made with wootz steel (a reference to a certain type of crucible process), and some of the impurities in the iron they used allowed for the development of carbon nanotubes in the steel, which added to the metal's performances. Experimental archaeology is now concerned with what additional elements were present in the steel, and what unique forging practices allowed for the production of steel that we have only outmatched with modern industrial technology. The indigenous metalworking culture that produced Damascus steel died out in the 1800's
This is incorrect. While it is correct that we probably know how to make real damascus, the folded metal is not real damascus although it is often called that. Ancient damascus is also called wootz steel, which is a crucible steel and get it's unique patterns and qualities from carbides that form in the steel. the damascus steel you're referring too is pattern welded steel, which is created by stacking different kinds of steel and then folding or cutting them to create unique patterns. In both cases etching is often required to bring out the unique patterns. both techniques are quite old, but merely folding metal during the forging process doesn't create these unique patterns and neither does it create superior properties in the steel.
The secret to Damascus steel seems to be lost no more. Some Professors and master forgers were able to recreate it and found out, that the original ore contained traces of vanadium (0.01% or so) that made the difference.
Forging Valyrian steel required magical and metallurgical techniques that were lost with the Doom of Valyria, a catastrophic event that destroyed the Valyrian civilization. As a result, existing Valyrian steel weapons are ancient and extremely rare. Some skilled smiths, like Tobho Mott in the series, can reforge Valyrian steel from broken blades, but the original methods of creating it from raw materials are a mystery.
I think valyrian steel is just steel with added obsidian, forging needs around 1200C but obsidian melts around 2000C; so this would explain the dragon part, you need their fire to achieve that temperature; the spells part might be for controling the dragon, not the metal. The sword has to be folded over and over to get the iron and obsidian to properly mix and blend together, this would explain the 100 days part. Lastly, you'll need to cool the sword at a specific rate for it to not end up brittle, this could be done with blood (because of course it needs blood).
I think Valyrian steel is affected by magic in the same manner as wildfire. Remember, that the production of wildfire increased dramatically, as if magic was returning to the World and spells worked better. I think with the dragons return and hence the return of magic, we will see the magical properties of Valyrian steel come to the forefront. I think different blades will have different magical properties as well. We could see extra electrical damage on a hit.
Speculation, but I like the idea that it's actually made the same as damsk/wotz steel, just with dragon glass and steel. Quenched in a dying dragons blood, maybe the bloodmagic comes in by capturing the soul of a dead Dragon and that's why there weren't that many of the Valyrian steel blades? That's my theory very simplified.
I was rereading the Hobbit recently and there was a mention of a clock on the mantlepiece which seems quite an advanced piece of technology for the level of development in the rest of middle earth at that time. I was wondering if that would be an interesting idea for video: What's the most advanced technology middle earth has access to in the third age? A household clock and one small enough to fit on a mantlepiece seems pretty advanced. They have gunpowder too - Gandalf uses it for fireworks and Saruman for an explosive that breaches Helms deep, but no mention of cannons or guns I believe. I'm not sure if my memory is tricking me, but I also remember there being steam machines in Saruman's Isengard factories?
I believe the Silmarillion or one of Tolkien's old letters mentions Númenoreans with hollow steel bows that made a thunderous sound, which seems to be implying guns (and references to flying ships besides!) Now it's not Third Age, and it's not even canon anymore as Tolkien decided not to go with that idea, but I still find that fascinating and I'd love to see Robert do a deep dive on this topic!
Clocks aren't as advanced as you make out. Wind up clocks have been around for good time, a mechanical timekeeper was found from classical antiquity. Sand and candle clocks are ancient, asian water clocks, and sun dial clocks. Wind up clocks are possible in 1300 from verge/crown wheels. They are likely more important early in middle earth for homes due to a lack of church bells broadcasting the time. It's possibly a dwarven thing due to no sun clocks etc. I doubt elves care for time much beyond days. However, orcs can't be discounted as they have some great engineers & industry, or sauron himself, as the black gate is similarly complex, and they have vast military applications, orcs are well co-ordinated & reliant on avoiding daylight hours. With fireworks & explosives, 14th century doesn't seem amiss. Still permits early hand cannons in the tenth century. Trebuchets in that style & other siege equipment such as the emplaced crossbow are also 14th century (before then there was a period where roman siege engines were seemingly forgotten) There is plate armour, too, which you won't really see before the 14th century. Certainly the films use it as the frame of reference. The anachronisms are the elven dam, and black gate. As an aside, dwarves probably ate raw meat, like orcs, as human cave-city dwellers did, due to the difficulties of cooking without good ventilation.
_The Hobbit_ contains a few anachronisms that I think Tolkien would have deleted if he had already fully realized his vision of Third Age Middle-earth.
@@TheRaptorsClaw That almost steampunk version of Númenor was mentioned in volume 9 of _The History of Middle-earth: Sauron Defeated_ in this passage (pp 338-9): "Yet it is said that even of those Númenóreans of old who had the straight vision there were some who did not comprehend this, and they were busy to contrive ships that should rise above the waters of the world and hold to the imagined seas. But they achieved only ships that would sail in the air of breath. And these ships, flying, came also to the lands of the new world, and to the east of the old world; and they reported that the world was round. Therefore many abandoned the Valar and put them out of their legends. But men of Middle-earth looked up with fear and wonder seeing the Númenóreans that descended out of the sky; and they took these mariners of the air to be gods, and some of the Númenóreans were content that this should be so."
@dlxmarks Ah, mate, thanks for the reference! So this is indeed canon then? It's unfinished tales and Tolkien possibly could have changed his mind later, so can we accept this?
I always thought it was obvious how the swords are made, George put it in the story in the form of a myth (Nissa Nissa) It requires a blood sacrifice like all the magic does. Probably has something to do with kinslaying, since there's so much made of it. Perhaps kinslaying is how you Birth dragons, cast shadow assasins, unlock warging abilities, etc
There's theories of vikings calling on totems and burning bones in the kilns of Scandinavia, so bear, ox, or whatever animal where used, and it's the carbon in the bones they theorised that was actually given the steel strength. Maybe dragon bones have a magical effect in the same manor?
I like to think the toiling miner slaves of the freehold had some impact on the forging of Valarian steel. Perhaps the ore they mined was unique to the region or perhaps their deaths and suffering (sacrifice) left some magical imprint on the ore that was later forged. I do believe dragon fire was a key component in the forging.
Two things that might be of interest to people: - Wootz Steel - steel that was created in south India and exported to the middle east and beyond, likely the cause of the legends around Damascus steel Quote from Wikipedia: "Another sign of its reputation is seen in a Persian phrase - to give an "Indian answer", meaning "a cut with an Indian sword"." - this makes me think of 'paying the iron price' as a type of phrase. - Second is the poorly named 'Secret of the Viking Sword' episode of the PBS show NOVA (available on UA-cam), which does look at an old Viking sword and have a swordsmith attempt to recreate it, but has a fascinating section about the trade that allowed steel from the middle east to end up in scandinavia for making swords. Damascus steel had many legends from around the time of the crusades, like it could cut a European sword in half and then split a hair falling though the air. I forget all the outlandish claims, and I do think we now have modern steels that are probably superior, but it (meaning Wootz/Damascus) was so superior to the steel Europeans used at the time, it likely did seem magical to them, especially if they saw the fancy patterns.
I see a lot of comments here in Damascus steel. There are two kinds which are very different. Look at “Knife Steel Nerd”s video on Wootz steel “Wootz the true Damascus?”. He has a PhD in metallurgy and explains it very well.
Pattern welded steel was used by the wealthiest Anglo-Saxons (there is an example recovered from Sutton Hoo ship burial). It was around before then as well I beleive.😊
seems clearer to be that rather than valerian steel being made with dragonglass, both valerian steel and dragonglass are made with the same thing - dragonfire.
In the Germanic saga of Wayland the Smith, there is a recipe for steel, which sounds Soft Magic, but it is actually Hard Science. Wayland was challenged by the court's smith in a battle of iron, a sword to be forged by Wayland against the armor made by the court's smith. Wayland creates a first sword, but is not content with the result, rasps it into small chips, mixes it with grain and feeds his chickens. Then he collects the feces, melts them and forges a second sword, even sharper. But he is still not content, rasps the second sword, and again feeds the chips to the chicken. Only the third sword, forged again from the feces, seems him sharp enough to pair it against the armor of the challenger. In the process, Wayland increases the Carbon content of the iron by melting it with the grain, turning it into steel. Additionally, the feces of animals contain Nitrogen, and thus, Wayland creates nitrated steel, harder and thus keeping a sharp edge for longer.
Just a fun theory but what if the blood part involved the blacksmith having to sacrifice themself to the dragonfire with the sword as they finish forging and then the mages set the swords with spells? And the mages teach the secrets the forging them with talented Smiths who never complete a full Valyrian steel sword so that they can continue to teach the art which was loft in the eruption
Obviously it’s fantasy, so GRR Martin can do what he likes, but I find the ‘dragonglass addition’ theory hard to accept because obsidian etc. is heavy in silicone, which is one of the impurities that they try to *remove* from smelter iron to make steel (better). ‘Crucible steel’ or ‘wootz’ is what arms and armour historians and conservators etc. mean when they’re talking about historical ‘Damascus steel’, which has a beautiful *natural* pattern to it, whereas modern day ‘Damascus’ is produced by folding layers of different carbon-content steel, very skilfully, to make different patterns which are revealed with an acid etching afterwards (pattern welding). I feel like when George says ‘Valyrian steel is like Damascus steel’, he’s referring to wootz versus ‘normal’ steel. It’s like the kind of situation they had in early medieval Europe, where they had some very high value crucible steel swords from further east (where crucible steel was made) which were very rare, and also western steel which was still good but not *as* good (aka Martin’s ‘castle-forged’) steel, and which wasn’t wootz. Interestingly, wootz is also called ‘watered steel’ for the natural patterns in it. I realise that’s very incoherently put down though, sorry!
While the original recipe has been lost, it also has been rediscovered, it's called Wootz steel, probably a bastardisation "ukku" which means steel in Dravidian languages, to distinguish it from modern Damascus which is pattern-welded. Wootz is not welded, it's a crucible steel, having the right alloy is crucial so it could only be made if you both had the right ore deposit and knew the process, and they did it at a time where only very few civilisations had hot enough furnaces to even make crucible steel. You can find documentations here on youtube. Old wootz is vastly inferior to ordinary modern crucible steel because of phosphorous impurities, new wootz, created only with the elements actually necessary to create the patterning is a decent steel but still no comparison to modern alloys optimised for performance, not looks. I guess both aspects could be combined, at least to a degree. The notion of smiths as having magical powers is age-old, btw, for the simple reason that sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. To this day a steel sword that bends against a shield and then just springs back kinda is a magical sight, not at all every blade made from iron can do that, much less bronze or stone ones.
I came here to correct the assessment that the technique for Damascus Steel has been lost but apparently everyone else did too, and better than I'd ever explain.
They ofcourse also contain dragonglass (obsidian) as that has also been proved to kill the Others.. even in the books when Sam stabs one of the Others with a dragonglass dagger. So.. Could it be a part of the recipe for the Valyrian steel?
What if that’s what the battle of blood ends up being about? What if Euron raids OldTown for the secret to crafting Valyrian Steel, thus the secret to obtaining a theoretically unbeatable army
I always wondered if the myth was magic but the actual was steel mixed with Dragonglass. I wondered if the Targareans knew about Dragonstone because they exported dragonglass from there to make it.
What about the Valyrian steel links that maesters can recieve? The maesters don't believe in magic and scoff at it, yet they seem to be able to work it under certain circumstances. Could there be a 1% that controls greater secrets in the citadel?
I wonder if in Westeros’ future (if they are capable of following along like things did in our time since their planet seems to have periods of extreme variability in weather) but I wonder if the future people could rediscover valerian steel
When I was reading the books, I thought it was just Damascus, maybe with some sort of fantasy metal layered in that made it lighter and stronger. Think Damascus made with mithril in LotR. Edit: When I say Damascus steel, I mean the modern kind made today, not whatever they were doing in Damascus hundreds of years ago.
To contradict Robert a bit, there's a theory running around that they did make Damascus in Damascus, but it was due to the quality and makeup of iron deposits in the region more so than just a secret technique.
It's based on Indian crucible steel i.e. they used dragonfire to melt the steel to a liquid which makes a stronger steel. The real Damascus steel is Indian steel. It is not pattern welded steel 1:35
I think we have to look at this from GRRM perspective as a writer. What would make the story best? I think, either blood was used in large amounts as a forging additive. Or indeed, the blade might be quenshed with murder. Why would it need hundreds of spells? Just like it has hundreds of layers? Are the spell forgers so ineffecive/inefficient? Are we just hyping the forging process? Or do these swords have actual vast magic properties? Do we need a array of spells to become dragon fire resistant? I think the killing of others just requires fire magic, or dragon fire magic. Dragon glass, or obsidian, could just be volcanic glass.... Interestingly... light, sharp, low maintenance. Thats how I imagine elven steel to be in other magical universes.
I keep thinking of the Vault-tec salesman and how he was supposed to get a set of steak knives. I guess that's due to all the supposed Damascus steel steak knives doing the rounds these days.
So when the Targaryens escaped Valyria, why didn't they bring people who know how to make it? Was it so rare that a minor house like theirs never had anyone who knew how?
In actuality the pattern welded strel from Damascus is still made today and is actually much better in every way. Modern metallurgy has made sword making much better than in the day when swords were used in dueal and battles. Basically old Damascus has been tested against new Damascus style steel and the newer stuff is far better than anything made in medieval times or before. This is not my opinion it is fact. Also the folding of the steel is not so much to remove impurities but to homogenize any impurities so that there isn't any week spots, this is how the japanese make katana and how most Damascus was forged.
Incorrect. Damascus Steel was never lost, it simply fell out of favor to modern steel-forging techniques. The practice still exists, though primarily for its pattern.
Small bone to pick. There is no secret to Damascus steel. It's just a pattern weld. Damascus steel is pattern welded steel from Damascus. I own several "Damascus steel," knives.
5:09 "We're told this" and YT immediately inserts a "Mint Mobile is offering you unlimited talk and text for $15 a month" ad. Coincidental segues are the best.
1. im not deeply into S.o.i.a.F. 2. but hearing what you said: its lighter, and more durrable, and hard to work with, i think its not "steel" more likely titanium, with magic.
Given that Valyrian steel is referred to as dragonsteel it seems more likely that the steel is imbued with potency from the forging with a dragon's breath rather than because inclusion of dragonglass. As DragonStone sits atop a large deposit of dragonglass and was the seat of the Targaryens it is likey that dragonfire was used in its creation. Thus both dragonsteel and dragonglass share a formative basis dependent upon fire magic. There it is, the nerdiest internet comment I'll make in 2025.
In real life the secret to damascus steel has been discovered (meaning, we know how they made it at the time). There was a single mine that had some unusual impurities that resulted in carbon nanotubes forming in the steel. The "lost art" wasn't "wow we can't make steel like this today", it was more like "we don't know how people made it with the technology available at the time". But like I said, that's been solved now. We've always been able to make modern steel that's stronger than damascus. We can also easily duplicate it using modern materials and methods, that was never the question.
..... Which means the secret to how it was done is still lost, the knowlage of how on3 can do it now or even imprive it is a whole nother story then figuring out, how they achived it with conoleatlh different tools and knowlage
“There was a single mine that had some unusual impurities,” the secret is not lost.
I’m not even going to touch on what “conoleatlh” may mean.
Modern "Damascus" steel, a favorite of cheap knife and wall-hanger manufacturers.
If you want some iffy metal that looks fancy, accept no substitute.
Yes, this is another of those old saws of 'lost technology' that are ... not lost. Pretty cool that somebody figured out this process a long time ago but we're far surpassed things like Damascus steel and Roman concrete.
@@SingingSealRiana Way to completely ignore the second half of the comment haha.
The method to create damascus steel is not lost, and it's not that special, don't believe everything you hear in a UA-cam video.
It was just a higher than normal carbon content iron, this high carbon content made it harder to forge, resulting in the famous pattern it has, it's still worse than modern steel.
Hi, Robert! This is everyone.
Interesting comment
Thank you. (?)
@@Sakumitzu you're...welcome (?)
@@Hugh-Janus1369 no it's not, it's very unoriginal though
I too, must be a player o' frock.
I'm inclined to believe that the original Lightbringer forged by the First Azhor Ahai was the first proto-Valyrian steel sword, acquiring its magical properties by accident. There's a precedent for accidental magic performed through sacrifice, like how Dany accidentally performed blood sacrifice to hatch her dragon eggs. Lightbringer may have been the first Azhor Ahai's personal pet project that was used in the final stages of its forging as he murdered his wife, and thr discovery of its magical properties began the ancient magical and alchemical research into forging what was later called Valyrian steel.
Definitely a unique take. Always appreciate them
I like the idea that Jon is lightbringer.
Hi, knivemaker here. 1:40 this is not correct. Damascus steel is well known and used method of creating steel composite. This technique was never really lost. This method takes two kinds of steel, softer and harder (which is dependant of amount of carbon inside the iron crystals). Then you will layer these two and you bend it over and over. This is what creates both pattern (lighter and darker steel) but also excellent performance (because this alloy has advantages of both harder and softer steel).
Just felt like correction is in place. I really love your videos, by the way. Be well!
The thing lost is the knowlage of how they did it back then, the fact one knows how to do it now with completely different tools and science at hand dies not answer that
What he was really referring to was Wootz steel, which has nothing in common with modern pattern-welded steels, which we call "damascus".
@@davidtatro7457 Beat me to it. The thing is that the secret to Wootz steel wasn't lost either. The blacksmiths in India made it the traditional way into at least the 19th century.
Wootz Steel is the TRUE Damascus Steel. Damascus steel is a pretender claiming all of Wootz Steels' achievements.
And it’s overrated in my opinion, my best swords are of springsteel.
I look forward to these every week. Last week, you were late and I was sad… but then you came through and my heart smiled. Thank you for all the work you put into this content.
ASo fun fact in Moby Dick the spear Ahab had made for killing Moby Dick was quenched in blood. So the idea of blood in forging giving the metal more properties was still around in he 1800s long after the blast furnace made steel production both much cheaper and consistently repeatable.
I think the “secrets” to making Damascus steel (or wootz steel more accurately) is not lost. Indeed, there’s many dozens of UA-cam videos about wootz and Damascus
It is kinda lost, cause they cant figure out how it was done back then, the faft they can do it now with entirely diffetent tools and knowlage at hand does not answer that question
@@SingingSealRiana It seems like they had some good ore, and they knew how to heat it up really hot and get the impurities out and they knew how to turn that into strong steel by folding it over and over. I think that is it basically. There was no magic secret or anything, the skill was lost but it's not magic and we can do it today.
We don't know exactly the process they used, okay, fine, but we know what is required and can infer that they used a method that would achieve the required results.
There was a TV program years back (it might have been Nova's "Secrets of the Samurai Sword" from 2007 but I'm not sure) which showed a Japanese swordsmith making one using the traditional methods like stacking the fuel in a precise manner, carefully watching the fire and the metal until they achieved just the right color, manual hammering, etc. Then they gave the exacting attributes and specifications to a Western metal expert and had him make a sword using modern methods like a gas furnace, thermometers, machine hammering, etc. The sword he eventually produced wasn't very pretty but it passed all the traditional Japanese proving tests for hard edge, flexibility, blade strength, and cutting ability. So the Western guy made a "Japanese" sword just not in the Japanese method.
@@dlxmarks These types of processes weren't exclusive to Japan. Folding steel to remove impurities was also done in Europe, as well as composite blades using a hard edge and a softer spine.
@@no_nameyouknowNo that is not it at all. Wootz steel is very different. As I understand it has impurities in the ore that causes very special crystal structure. They are not forged at all like normal blades. What you are talking about is ordinary folding to diffuse out impurities and that was known by blacksmiths all over. They have been able to recreate something similar but not quite Wootz steel.
It is not a magical steel and modern steels are better but it is an interesting piece of history.
Love these videos. Simple, common questions that don’t have easy answers
I feel that the secrets of Valyrian steel will never be revealed by George. He said that he’ll never tell the details about everything that’s in the game of thrones world.
Mystery is usually more cool than knowledge.
It's a steel rooted in blood and fire magic and we have legends of the creation of such to fight the Others, it's pretty easy to guess how it's made...
@@vladimirpain3942 Sherlock Holmes disagrees. As does Dr. Gregory House.
At this rate I'll be surprised if he publishes one more ASOIAF book before dying.
He won't even reveal the ending of ASOIAF. Ever 😂
The mystery of valarian steel is lost to time like the hope of GRRM ever finishing TWOW was lost long ago
But, winter is coming. 😂
@@Kennylaggins South Park's "don't worry the dragons are coming" was twelve years ago.
The detailed description of how heavily worked and folded Valyrian steel is in the books reminds me of that scene from S4E1 of _GoT_ in which Ice is melted down and Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper are cast from its metal. So many morons tried to defend that with the usual cop-out excuses like "It's fantasy," "It's magic," or "It's only a show" but later Benioff and Weiss admitted in the DVD commentary that this is a stupid way to make a sword but they loved the casting scene in the first _Conan_ movie and wanted to copy it.
Brother, your the best in the biz! Every video is a gem. Thank you for all your efforts they are not unnoticed.
Everyone talks about human sacrifice but what if valerian steel is tempered by sacrificing a dragon and thats why it's so expensive?
I can't imagine anyone attempting to sacrifice a dragon....they would be burned to a crisp if they tried it.
That's a neat idea, and helps justify the material being exclusive to the Valerians as human sacrifice wouldn't have been a particularly big issue for many GoT civilizations, and presumably they also would have figured out the methods to make the steel, where that the case.
@@resurgam_b7 it seems to answer the reason why the qohoric can't reacreate valerian steel despite possibly having the knowledge to make it but only rework it.
@@resurgam_b7 my other theory is that they sacrificed bastards of great valerian dragon riders because blood has power
@@jonesreviews4613 Ooh, that's also possible, though... it opens up the rather unsettling possibility of the riders purposefully having many illegitimate children specifically to later use them to create more valerian steel 😬
This would suggest that Valyrian steel predates Valyria by several millennia, given that the Long Night was 8,000 years ago and Valyria was 'young' 5,000 years ago, or that the timeline is wrong for at least one of these things
And there is nothing strange about it, when you remember that Valrians were "enlightened" by someone who came from the east.
It's possible Valyrian steel was an attempt at recreating the metal of the sword for the legend. Possibly the Valyrians came by a more complete copy of the legends. We know there are similar stories throughout the world (Last Hero, Azor Ahai)
Honestly, my favorite hypothesis for the original forging of Valyrian Steel is that the iron (and possibly the carbon) that went into the steel comes from the blood of the sacrifices. Hundreds of souls, each of them rendered down to the miniscule amount of iron they had in their bodies for the blade they were forged into. The fact that you used the blood of the sacrificed in the forging process probably also meant that the spell held more strongly.
The sheer amount of sacrifices needed, plus the likely hot flames that could only come from a volcano or a dragon, are probably what has prevented someone from figuring out how to forge a new one.
Still, just a hypothesis, but one I like. I feel it would fit in Martin's setting.
I seem to recall that the smith that turned Ice into two swords said something about the spells now working much more effectively. This ties into the powers of the warlocks Daenerys targaryen deals with increasing, and the sudden increase in the amount and potency of wildfire alchemists were able to make. I understood the implication was the return of dragons to the world had brought back magic with them.
Robert, I am so grateful you make all of your videos, they’re so great!! We need some new ASOIAF content, can’t wait for Dunk and Egg show
Hi Robert. LA has been quite stressful this week. Thx for bringing me back to Westeros. Shoutout to House Dayne (even though we lack a valerian steel sword)
7:12 I think you've overlooking a much simpler alternative here: they simply have a store of pre-forged links
Ive commented before on the possible need to recover them from dead maesters, too.
The Qohorick Smiths - I was happy making swords of Valyrian Steel, but heaven knows I'm miserable now.
Ahhhhh I see what you did there
This Charming Maester.
8:37 That the sword remained unchanged is pure fantasy, for only the blade would survive, not the guard, the pommel or the handle.
if the blade properties included a powerful heat sink
it would siphon off heat on the other parts and prevent their destruction
@@RW77777777 If.... only if.
Not if the handle is made out of dragon bone
In the song of ice and fire, the world they exist in has many types and levels of magic. Correspondingly, different types of everything else. Steel included. Rough forged iron from the people of the wilds. Better quality alloy steel from smaller holdfasts. "Castle forged" steel from large ruling family castles such as winterfell or the twins. Then the street of steel in the capital. A mixture of talent and background as well as knowledge. Skip over the sea, to the free city of bravos and things change as well. Magic that may be outlawed or banned in westeros are practiced openly in bravos.
5:09 a commercial interrupted at this moment, and I thought The Smiths were describing a facial cream
The exact same thing happened to me.
Real, genuine, old damascus looks like rain on water, and we don't truly know how it was made. People can do some incredible things with pattern welding as a forging technique, but its not quite the same look. Performance wise, we can definitely make better steel though
As a part of my own writing, I've contemplated lost secrets of metallurgy, there is a modern idea for experimental future materials, meta materials, composites made with very finely controlled added elements, down to the atomic level. There is also a secondary idea about tying strings of atoms into literal knots to change the overall properties of molecules, the idea that springs to mind is that a magic could help create these meta materials, something that is lost, but would be a property unable to be either discerned or removed from the original material.
So what was dragon steel from the legends of the last hero? As that's pre valarian freehold could it be some sort of alloy with obsidian?
Looks like the ASOIAF characters are also victims of the widespread myth that folding steel forever makes it super. Yes, it does help in making dodgy pre-industrial steel less dodgy (eg, spread out the impurities since a chain is only as strong as its weakest link), but only up to a point, after which you start making your sword weaker again (eg, excessive decarburization).
I swear....if I have to hear "folded a thousand times" one more time..
You make the best videos, Robert. I hope you are well all the best from Iowa.
Man that's an interesting theory...obsidian as a component of the alloy. A metalloceramic blade would be much lighter for certain, and would be able to have a much finer edge due to the smaller crystal structures.
As always, well done sir
I think Dragon Steel swords are a red herring, yes they work against white walkers, but even if you learned how they were made the cost and time would be too much to make it possible to arm very many soldiers, and GRRM is not going to have the answer to his epic be “find and build a super weapon to fix your problems”, if anything it’s the opposite of that. Weapons are not going to be the answer.
I wonder if Valyrian steel forged from meteorites and maybe lightbringer was the first one in existence?
Thank you, Robert.
Hi Robert! "How to make Damascus blades" was never lost. I own two.
There's countless UA-cam videos on the topic. I recommend Alec Steele's channel.
I think dragon bone might also play a part in its creation, maybe used in place of regular iron given it's high iron content and black color
Perhaps Dragon forged doesn't mean forged by a Dragon, but rather forged from a Dragon.
Interesting idea 🤔
That's a very interesting idea. It certainly adds a lot of fantasy to the recipe.
Martin said that dragon bone played no part in the making of Valyrian steel.
I like the theory that quenching the Steel in Greyscale infested water is part of the process.
I love your Videos, your soothing voice makes for a realy nice expierience. You should do reedings for Audiobooks.
May I point you towards one of his other YT channels, The Well Told Tale. It's Robert reading cool out of copyright stories
That Valyrian steel necklace Daemon gave Rhaenyra: it was made of some hundred pieces or so. Does that mean it took 100 or so human sacrifices to make? Honestly I can see the Valyrian nobility doing that. Sinister bling, sending out a ‘look how many slaves I can happily waste’ message. Terrifying if true…
Its worth noting that despite obsidian being referred to as "dragon glass" dragons dont necessarily have anything to do with it's creation, so just because its referred to as "dragon steel" doesnt mean that dragons are a part of its creation either and could simply be the steel of the dragon lords.
I think it's because both require high heat when created normally, but dragon fire is high heat + magic, so creates the items infused with magical properties.
So it could mean literal dragon fire, or maybe just a blacksmith which infused them with his own magic and named it after them.
Correct.
As we've seen and heard from the characters, obsidian is a glass that can burn, generate heat like a dragon thus being call "dragonglass".
So a dragonsteel must be a steel with the same properties as dragonglass, a steel that can burn, generate heat like a dragon, a fire magic blade that can kill the Others just like dragonglass and we've heard a legend about such steel blade :
The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife's blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame."
Clydas blinked. "A sword that makes its own heat …"
Its probably going to be another Elric reference. There are souls in the valyrian steel swords. NissaNissa is proof of this. That's why melting the throne may come to pass.
Damascus steel is made my alternating steels of different strengths and purities. Most modern sword smiths use MIg or TIg welding to make a "blank", a brick of alternating medals, that is eventually forged into a laminated blade. My theory of Dragon or Vialyrian steel is that steel and dragon glass is welded together, the magic transmuting the obsidian into something that is workable like metal. Quenching the blade in a specific blood would also lend another magical aspect.
"Damascus steel is made my alternating steels of different strengths and purities"
No, that's called pattern welding, and the pattern it produces is commonly called Damascus. It has little in common with Wootz steel, aside from both having iron and carbon.
The secret to Damascus steel is NOT lost: it is still manufactured to this date. It is a process of folding metal during the forging process and there it develops its superior properties
It doesn't "develop superior properties", it merely gets rid of impurities in the material. Or to put it more accurately, it spreads the impurities more evenly, to avoid pockets. Given steel of good purity, you don't need to fold it, and it will be just as good, or better.
Fold forging was not unique to the production of Damascus steel, and cultures throughout the world used it. Damascus steel was made with wootz steel (a reference to a certain type of crucible process), and some of the impurities in the iron they used allowed for the development of carbon nanotubes in the steel, which added to the metal's performances. Experimental archaeology is now concerned with what additional elements were present in the steel, and what unique forging practices allowed for the production of steel that we have only outmatched with modern industrial technology. The indigenous metalworking culture that produced Damascus steel died out in the 1800's
This is incorrect. While it is correct that we probably know how to make real damascus, the folded metal is not real damascus although it is often called that. Ancient damascus is also called wootz steel, which is a crucible steel and get it's unique patterns and qualities from carbides that form in the steel. the damascus steel you're referring too is pattern welded steel, which is created by stacking different kinds of steel and then folding or cutting them to create unique patterns. In both cases etching is often required to bring out the unique patterns. both techniques are quite old, but merely folding metal during the forging process doesn't create these unique patterns and neither does it create superior properties in the steel.
It kinda is, while it is possible again to create it, it is in fact lost how it was done back then with the tools and knowlage they had we know about
Superior for the time, due to its high carbon content, making it harder than other weapons, but not better than modern standards.
The secret to Damascus steel seems to be lost no more. Some Professors and master forgers were able to recreate it and found out, that the original ore contained traces of vanadium (0.01% or so) that made the difference.
Forging Valyrian steel required magical and metallurgical techniques that were lost with the Doom of Valyria, a catastrophic event that destroyed the Valyrian civilization. As a result, existing Valyrian steel weapons are ancient and extremely rare. Some skilled smiths, like Tobho Mott in the series, can reforge Valyrian steel from broken blades, but the original methods of creating it from raw materials are a mystery.
great video!!!
I think valyrian steel is just steel with added obsidian, forging needs around 1200C but obsidian melts around 2000C; so this would explain the dragon part, you need their fire to achieve that temperature; the spells part might be for controling the dragon, not the metal. The sword has to be folded over and over to get the iron and obsidian to properly mix and blend together, this would explain the 100 days part. Lastly, you'll need to cool the sword at a specific rate for it to not end up brittle, this could be done with blood (because of course it needs blood).
I think Valyrian steel is affected by magic in the same manner as wildfire. Remember, that the production of wildfire increased dramatically, as if magic was returning to the World and spells worked better. I think with the dragons return and hence the return of magic, we will see the magical properties of Valyrian steel come to the forefront. I think different blades will have different magical properties as well. We could see extra electrical damage on a hit.
Speculation, but I like the idea that it's actually made the same as damsk/wotz steel, just with dragon glass and steel. Quenched in a dying dragons blood, maybe the bloodmagic comes in by capturing the soul of a dead Dragon and that's why there weren't that many of the Valyrian steel blades? That's my theory very simplified.
I was rereading the Hobbit recently and there was a mention of a clock on the mantlepiece which seems quite an advanced piece of technology for the level of development in the rest of middle earth at that time.
I was wondering if that would be an interesting idea for video: What's the most advanced technology middle earth has access to in the third age?
A household clock and one small enough to fit on a mantlepiece seems pretty advanced.
They have gunpowder too - Gandalf uses it for fireworks and Saruman for an explosive that breaches Helms deep, but no mention of cannons or guns I believe.
I'm not sure if my memory is tricking me, but I also remember there being steam machines in Saruman's Isengard factories?
I believe the Silmarillion or one of Tolkien's old letters mentions Númenoreans with hollow steel bows that made a thunderous sound, which seems to be implying guns (and references to flying ships besides!)
Now it's not Third Age, and it's not even canon anymore as Tolkien decided not to go with that idea, but I still find that fascinating and I'd love to see Robert do a deep dive on this topic!
Clocks aren't as advanced as you make out. Wind up clocks have been around for good time, a mechanical timekeeper was found from classical antiquity. Sand and candle clocks are ancient, asian water clocks, and sun dial clocks.
Wind up clocks are possible in 1300 from verge/crown wheels.
They are likely more important early in middle earth for homes due to a lack of church bells broadcasting the time.
It's possibly a dwarven thing due to no sun clocks etc. I doubt elves care for time much beyond days. However, orcs can't be discounted as they have some great engineers & industry, or sauron himself, as the black gate is similarly complex, and they have vast military applications, orcs are well co-ordinated & reliant on avoiding daylight hours.
With fireworks & explosives, 14th century doesn't seem amiss. Still permits early hand cannons in the tenth century.
Trebuchets in that style & other siege equipment such as the emplaced crossbow are also 14th century (before then there was a period where roman siege engines were seemingly forgotten)
There is plate armour, too, which you won't really see before the 14th century.
Certainly the films use it as the frame of reference.
The anachronisms are the elven dam, and black gate.
As an aside, dwarves probably ate raw meat, like orcs, as human cave-city dwellers did, due to the difficulties of cooking without good ventilation.
_The Hobbit_ contains a few anachronisms that I think Tolkien would have deleted if he had already fully realized his vision of Third Age Middle-earth.
@@TheRaptorsClaw That almost steampunk version of Númenor was mentioned in volume 9 of _The History of Middle-earth: Sauron Defeated_ in this passage (pp 338-9):
"Yet it is said that even of those Númenóreans of old who had the straight vision there were some who did not comprehend this, and they were busy to contrive ships that should rise above the waters of the world and hold to the imagined seas. But they achieved only ships that would sail in the air of breath. And these ships, flying, came also to the lands of the new world, and to the east of the old world; and they reported that the world was round. Therefore many abandoned the Valar and put them out of their legends. But men of Middle-earth looked up with fear and wonder seeing the Númenóreans that descended out of the sky; and they took these mariners of the air to be gods, and some of the Númenóreans were content that this should be so."
@dlxmarks Ah, mate, thanks for the reference! So this is indeed canon then? It's unfinished tales and Tolkien possibly could have changed his mind later, so can we accept this?
I always thought it was obvious how the swords are made, George put it in the story in the form of a myth (Nissa Nissa) It requires a blood sacrifice like all the magic does. Probably has something to do with kinslaying, since there's so much made of it. Perhaps kinslaying is how you Birth dragons, cast shadow assasins, unlock warging abilities, etc
Longclaw is currently unclaimed too
There's theories of vikings calling on totems and burning bones in the kilns of Scandinavia, so bear, ox, or whatever animal where used, and it's the carbon in the bones they theorised that was actually given the steel strength. Maybe dragon bones have a magical effect in the same manor?
I like to think the toiling miner slaves of the freehold had some impact on the forging of Valarian steel. Perhaps the ore they mined was unique to the region or perhaps their deaths and suffering (sacrifice) left some magical imprint on the ore that was later forged. I do believe dragon fire was a key component in the forging.
Two things that might be of interest to people:
- Wootz Steel - steel that was created in south India and exported to the middle east and beyond, likely the cause of the legends around Damascus steel
Quote from Wikipedia: "Another sign of its reputation is seen in a Persian phrase - to give an "Indian answer", meaning "a cut with an Indian sword"." - this makes me think of 'paying the iron price' as a type of phrase.
- Second is the poorly named 'Secret of the Viking Sword' episode of the PBS show NOVA (available on UA-cam), which does look at an old Viking sword and have a swordsmith attempt to recreate it, but has a fascinating section about the trade that allowed steel from the middle east to end up in scandinavia for making swords.
Damascus steel had many legends from around the time of the crusades, like it could cut a European sword in half and then split a hair falling though the air. I forget all the outlandish claims, and I do think we now have modern steels that are probably superior, but it (meaning Wootz/Damascus) was so superior to the steel Europeans used at the time, it likely did seem magical to them, especially if they saw the fancy patterns.
I see a lot of comments here in Damascus steel. There are two kinds which are very different. Look at “Knife Steel Nerd”s video on Wootz steel “Wootz the true Damascus?”. He has a PhD in metallurgy and explains it very well.
Pattern welded steel was used by the wealthiest Anglo-Saxons (there is an example recovered from Sutton Hoo ship burial). It was around before then as well I beleive.😊
seems clearer to be that rather than valerian steel being made with dragonglass, both valerian steel and dragonglass are made with the same thing - dragonfire.
In the Germanic saga of Wayland the Smith, there is a recipe for steel, which sounds Soft Magic, but it is actually Hard Science. Wayland was challenged by the court's smith in a battle of iron, a sword to be forged by Wayland against the armor made by the court's smith. Wayland creates a first sword, but is not content with the result, rasps it into small chips, mixes it with grain and feeds his chickens. Then he collects the feces, melts them and forges a second sword, even sharper. But he is still not content, rasps the second sword, and again feeds the chips to the chicken. Only the third sword, forged again from the feces, seems him sharp enough to pair it against the armor of the challenger.
In the process, Wayland increases the Carbon content of the iron by melting it with the grain, turning it into steel. Additionally, the feces of animals contain Nitrogen, and thus, Wayland creates nitrated steel, harder and thus keeping a sharp edge for longer.
Just a fun theory but what if the blood part involved the blacksmith having to sacrifice themself to the dragonfire with the sword as they finish forging and then the mages set the swords with spells? And the mages teach the secrets the forging them with talented Smiths who never complete a full Valyrian steel sword so that they can continue to teach the art which was loft in the eruption
Obviously it’s fantasy, so GRR Martin can do what he likes, but I find the ‘dragonglass addition’ theory hard to accept because obsidian etc. is heavy in silicone, which is one of the impurities that they try to *remove* from smelter iron to make steel (better). ‘Crucible steel’ or ‘wootz’ is what arms and armour historians and conservators etc. mean when they’re talking about historical ‘Damascus steel’, which has a beautiful *natural* pattern to it, whereas modern day ‘Damascus’ is produced by folding layers of different carbon-content steel, very skilfully, to make different patterns which are revealed with an acid etching afterwards (pattern welding). I feel like when George says ‘Valyrian steel is like Damascus steel’, he’s referring to wootz versus ‘normal’ steel. It’s like the kind of situation they had in early medieval Europe, where they had some very high value crucible steel swords from further east (where crucible steel was made) which were very rare, and also western steel which was still good but not *as* good (aka Martin’s ‘castle-forged’) steel, and which wasn’t wootz. Interestingly, wootz is also called ‘watered steel’ for the natural patterns in it. I realise that’s very incoherently put down though, sorry!
I would love to see wildfire against the others
3 unskippable ads is diabolical
Will we ever get those Robert's Rebellion videos back?
I cant find your roberts rebellion playlist,am I blind? I miss it,it was my best valium for a long time..
While the original recipe has been lost, it also has been rediscovered, it's called Wootz steel, probably a bastardisation "ukku" which means steel in Dravidian languages, to distinguish it from modern Damascus which is pattern-welded. Wootz is not welded, it's a crucible steel, having the right alloy is crucial so it could only be made if you both had the right ore deposit and knew the process, and they did it at a time where only very few civilisations had hot enough furnaces to even make crucible steel. You can find documentations here on youtube. Old wootz is vastly inferior to ordinary modern crucible steel because of phosphorous impurities, new wootz, created only with the elements actually necessary to create the patterning is a decent steel but still no comparison to modern alloys optimised for performance, not looks. I guess both aspects could be combined, at least to a degree.
The notion of smiths as having magical powers is age-old, btw, for the simple reason that sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. To this day a steel sword that bends against a shield and then just springs back kinda is a magical sight, not at all every blade made from iron can do that, much less bronze or stone ones.
We know how Damascus Steel was made. That's why we can distinguish between it and pattern welding.
I came here to correct the assessment that the technique for Damascus Steel has been lost but apparently everyone else did too, and better than I'd ever explain.
Hi Robert!
Love your videos can u do one on dunk and egg
I personally wonder how Effective a Witcher's Silver Sword would against the White Walkers.
I thought this same question the first time I watched this video years ago 😂
They ofcourse also contain dragonglass (obsidian) as that has also been proved to kill the Others.. even in the books when Sam stabs one of the Others with a dragonglass dagger.
So..
Could it be a part of the recipe for the Valyrian steel?
Maybe the answer isjust 12:31 that plain, not a blood SACRIFICE but just being tempered in blood because water simply wouldn't work
What if that’s what the battle of blood ends up being about? What if Euron raids OldTown for the secret to crafting Valyrian Steel, thus the secret to obtaining a theoretically unbeatable army
I always wondered if the myth was magic but the actual was steel mixed with Dragonglass.
I wondered if the Targareans knew about Dragonstone because they exported dragonglass from there to make it.
What about the Valyrian steel links that maesters can recieve? The maesters don't believe in magic and scoff at it, yet they seem to be able to work it under certain circumstances. Could there be a 1% that controls greater secrets in the citadel?
My gym uses Valyrian Steel for its squat racks!
I wonder if in Westeros’ future (if they are capable of following along like things did in our time since their planet seems to have periods of extreme variability in weather) but I wonder if the future people could rediscover valerian steel
I'm pretty sure Valyrian Steel is the friends we backstabbed along the way.
Maybe they grind up dragonglass into dust and fold it into steel heated in dragonfire and they use the sacrifical blood for quenching
When I was reading the books, I thought it was just Damascus, maybe with some sort of fantasy metal layered in that made it lighter and stronger. Think Damascus made with mithril in LotR.
Edit: When I say Damascus steel, I mean the modern kind made today, not whatever they were doing in Damascus hundreds of years ago.
Damascus steel but magic.
To contradict Robert a bit, there's a theory running around that they did make Damascus in Damascus, but it was due to the quality and makeup of iron deposits in the region more so than just a secret technique.
It's based on Indian crucible steel i.e. they used dragonfire to melt the steel to a liquid which makes a stronger steel. The real Damascus steel is Indian steel. It is not pattern welded steel 1:35
That much folding actually indicates the steel would have more impurities than Medieval European steel.
I am getting Valley of Hinnom vibs With all the human sacrificing.
Valyrian Steel is like Damascus Steel, only extra.
I think we have to look at this from GRRM perspective as a writer. What would make the story best?
I think, either blood was used in large amounts as a forging additive. Or indeed, the blade might be quenshed with murder.
Why would it need hundreds of spells? Just like it has hundreds of layers? Are the spell forgers so ineffecive/inefficient? Are we just hyping the forging process? Or do these swords have actual vast magic properties? Do we need a array of spells to become dragon fire resistant?
I think the killing of others just requires fire magic, or dragon fire magic. Dragon glass, or obsidian, could just be volcanic glass....
Interestingly... light, sharp, low maintenance. Thats how I imagine elven steel to be in other magical universes.
I keep thinking of the Vault-tec salesman and how he was supposed to get a set of steak knives. I guess that's due to all the supposed Damascus steel steak knives doing the rounds these days.
So when the Targaryens escaped Valyria, why didn't they bring people who know how to make it? Was it so rare that a minor house like theirs never had anyone who knew how?
In actuality the pattern welded strel from Damascus is still made today and is actually much better in every way. Modern metallurgy has made sword making much better than in the day when swords were used in dueal and battles. Basically old Damascus has been tested against new Damascus style steel and the newer stuff is far better than anything made in medieval times or before. This is not my opinion it is fact. Also the folding of the steel is not so much to remove impurities but to homogenize any impurities so that there isn't any week spots, this is how the japanese make katana and how most Damascus was forged.
Incorrect. Damascus Steel was never lost, it simply fell out of favor to modern steel-forging techniques. The practice still exists, though primarily for its pattern.
A benefit to the folded layers is a blade with the hardness to keep an edge without the entire blade being so brittle.
Never been this early!
An entire nation of metallurgists showed up to comments. Awesome
Small bone to pick. There is no secret to Damascus steel. It's just a pattern weld. Damascus steel is pattern welded steel from Damascus. I own several "Damascus steel," knives.
5:09 "We're told this" and YT immediately inserts a "Mint Mobile is offering you unlimited talk and text for $15 a month" ad. Coincidental segues are the best.
Also mithril.
1:53 Fortunately it has since resurfaced again on the pages of the very same legendary UA-cam 🤣🤣🤣
1. im not deeply into S.o.i.a.F.
2. but hearing what you said: its lighter, and more durrable, and hard to work with, i think its not "steel" more likely titanium, with magic.
Given that Valyrian steel is referred to as dragonsteel it seems more likely that the steel is imbued with potency from the forging with a dragon's breath rather than because inclusion of dragonglass. As DragonStone sits atop a large deposit of dragonglass and was the seat of the Targaryens it is likey that dragonfire was used in its creation. Thus both dragonsteel and dragonglass share a formative basis dependent upon fire magic. There it is, the nerdiest internet comment I'll make in 2025.