Just as I was about to sleep, I saw this pop up in my recommended videos. I love your entire Lumatone series so far. The videos are all really digestible and fun to watch. 31-EDO is still my favorite tuning system, but it's nice to also gradually get to know the other EDO systems more and have a basic overview of their properties and sounds. Thank you so much for making these!
I think Dave's little piece at the end of this one is my favourite so far! Very much "in the spirit" of 17-equal, approachable but beautiful and nicely showcases those three main flavours of thirds and sevenths! Good on you Dave
For some reason, I really like this one. Sounds rustic and reminds me of my parents' detuned piano. Btw, love the examples at the beginning of the video.
I'm brand new to microtonality and I've been binging this series, it's so phenomenal! Do you think y'all will do an episode on 14 edo at some point? For some reason it's a tuning I've been obsessed with even though I have no way to try it 😂
i think the accurate fifth really encourages quartal and quintal harmony in this tuning. there's also that m3-p4-p5 tetrad you were playing; i like to interpret that as 6:7:8:9 and add a :11 (neutral seventh in this case) on the end.
“Dark” major thirds… Interesting! To my ears they sound more bright, if not raucous. No complaints though, that’s great that they give each of us different impressions!
@@mr88cetthe original comment was about *minor* thirds, hence the disagreement. i also find the minor thirds especially dark and the major ones especially bright.
Ivor Darreg described 17TET as an exaggerated Pythagorean, where the major 3rd becomes a dissonance that wants to resolve outward to the fourth. So, that completely turns traditional Theory backward, and reawakens the thinking from pre-Renaissance times! Perhaps start with Plain Chant, and then morph that into Aaron Copeland!
While 17edo is mainly useful for the 3-limit, 34edo is much better in the 5-limit. And 68edo is even better in the 7-limit. As a 5-limit system, 34edo is arguably better than 31edo, and way better than 24edo, 22edo, 19edo, 17edo or 12edo.
@@henrikljungstrand2036excuse-me please what is that you're talking about for different EDO temperaments ?! Or where can I learn more about this without wasting your time ?
You should give 29edo a go. Similar to 17 in that It's got good fifth(3/2) , fourth(4/3) , min7 (16/9) , maj2(9/8) - these are also closer to JI than 17 but basically everything else doesn't really approximate most lower harmonics or 'simple' ratios very closely.
58edo is better than 29edo, if you like to go beyond the 3-limit into the 5-limit, 7-limit or 11-limit. It is an extension of 29edo, with the same fifth, fourth etcetera.
@@henrikljungstrand2036 the problem with 58edo is there's just too many notes for a guitar to have. 29 is already pushing it, you can't get much past the 29th fret before the frets get too close to be playable. Plus, I'm mostly interested in 29 edo for its non-harmonic sounds, while also having very pure 4ths and fifths. I'm probably just going to go fretless though.
@@somepunkinthecomments471 If you think 58 is too many notes for a single instrument, then just watch the Qanun, which has 72 notes per octave iirc! For a guitar you can sort of solve the problem of too many bands per string, through using every other, or every third note etc of your edo, per string, and then tuning the open strings to each other in such a way that you get all (or most of) the other notes on other strings. This has been done for 41edo on the Kite guitar, which uses every other note of 41edo on each string ("20½edo"), keeping the most important melodic intervals between notes of one single string, while allowing other intervals in chords involving several strings. There is also a 31edo guitar, that has been played a bit by a few people (search for "transcendent tonality" or something like that), though i imagine it to be quite hard, since you need to find the right balance between too long a guitar neck for your arm, and too narrow bands for your fingers.
This tuning has really grown on me. My first introduction to different EDOs was Adam Neely's microtonal lofi video, and he compared 17edo to 19edo. Back then, I thought 19edo sounded way better. Now, I think 17edo is stellar and 19edo is overrated.
I think I like 22, quarter tone, 31 better... maybe after some time it would grow on me, like a cyst.🤣 Nobody said you have to like every tuning. Sometimes it depends on my mood, too, as much as the tuning itself.
Is it possible with the Lumatone to create a 17 note scale based on the Persian model taking the chromatic scale and adding microtones, like a note between Db and D and Eb and E ect, rather than splitting the octave in equal amount pitches. Or then taking that further by only choosing specific note intervals in the chromatic scale and adding two notes between Eb and E and Bb and B for instance? I was also thinking about being able to replicate all the most common ragas of Indian classical music, some of which may use a microtone in relation to the third for instance, but in two different ragas those microtones have differences in cents intervals, even though they both relate to the same degree of the scale. I was thinking that maybe the 31EDO has all the microtonal variations that would enable a host of different Indian ragas to be played on the one layout, since unless I am mistaken in that tuning there are three pitches between every whole step, which would mean between C and D there would be an added pitch on either side of Db. I think if that is the case, that tuning would enable the playing of most all Indian ragas. Thanks for any clarification much appreciated.
Thanks again, Dave! 17 can quickly take both you and you audience out of their comfort zone, _and I love it_ for that! 1:37 - Sorry if I’m nitpicking here, but did you mean to say “quarter-comma meantone” here, rather than “quartertone”?
Nah he's talking about shared frameworks for Arabic and Middle Eastern/near-Eastern music forms: Ibn Sina and al-Farabi came up with a bunch of really nice old tunings, there was a period where 17-tone Pythagorean was used, there was a bit of exploration on the neutral intervals, and later on, a 24-tone "quarter-tone" framework was sort of imposed on the musics of the region, although most of the practice wasn't really equally tempered at all. However, because of that, we've had about a century of people both inside and outside the Arabic world thinking that they're basically just using "quarter-tones" when the reality is a little different... Third-tones and the 17-tone framework is still more applicable in Iran than probably anywhere else.
@@camtaylormusic, ah, OK. Taken in the usual sense of quartertones as equal- or nearly-equal-temperament. So “before quartertone” in that sense doesn’t say much. But in the context you described, yes, that does have meaning.
Just as I was about to sleep, I saw this pop up in my recommended videos. I love your entire Lumatone series so far. The videos are all really digestible and fun to watch. 31-EDO is still my favorite tuning system, but it's nice to also gradually get to know the other EDO systems more and have a basic overview of their properties and sounds. Thank you so much for making these!
I think Dave's little piece at the end of this one is my favourite so far! Very much "in the spirit" of 17-equal, approachable but beautiful and nicely showcases those three main flavours of thirds and sevenths! Good on you Dave
Thanks Cam!
For some reason, I really like this one. Sounds rustic and reminds me of my parents' detuned piano. Btw, love the examples at the beginning of the video.
I'm brand new to microtonality and I've been binging this series, it's so phenomenal! Do you think y'all will do an episode on 14 edo at some point? For some reason it's a tuning I've been obsessed with even though I have no way to try it 😂
i think the accurate fifth really encourages quartal and quintal harmony in this tuning. there's also that m3-p4-p5 tetrad you were playing; i like to interpret that as 6:7:8:9 and add a :11 (neutral seventh in this case) on the end.
Return To Forever might be improved in 17edo. I can't believe I just said that.
17-edo is one of my absolute favourites. The minor thirds are so dark, and I love the fact that it has neutral intervals.
“Dark” major thirds… Interesting! To my ears they sound more bright, if not raucous. No complaints though, that’s great that they give each of us different impressions!
@@mr88cetthe original comment was about *minor* thirds, hence the disagreement. i also find the minor thirds especially dark and the major ones especially bright.
@@cellularautomaton. ah, good point!
Ivor Darreg described 17TET as an exaggerated Pythagorean, where the major 3rd becomes a dissonance that wants to resolve outward to the fourth.
So, that completely turns traditional Theory backward, and reawakens the thinking from pre-Renaissance times! Perhaps start with Plain Chant, and then morph that into Aaron Copeland!
please cover 34edo as a quarter tones version of this like how 24edo is to 12edo
While 17edo is mainly useful for the 3-limit, 34edo is much better in the 5-limit. And 68edo is even better in the 7-limit. As a 5-limit system, 34edo is arguably better than 31edo, and way better than 24edo, 22edo, 19edo, 17edo or 12edo.
@@henrikljungstrand2036excuse-me please what is that you're talking about for different EDO temperaments ?! Or where can I learn more about this without wasting your time ?
You should give 29edo a go.
Similar to 17 in that It's got good fifth(3/2) , fourth(4/3) , min7 (16/9) , maj2(9/8) - these are also closer to JI than 17
but basically everything else doesn't really approximate most lower harmonics or 'simple' ratios very closely.
I've been wanting the same thing. I need to hear 29 edo.
58edo is better than 29edo, if you like to go beyond the 3-limit into the 5-limit, 7-limit or 11-limit. It is an extension of 29edo, with the same fifth, fourth etcetera.
@@henrikljungstrand2036 the problem with 58edo is there's just too many notes for a guitar to have. 29 is already pushing it, you can't get much past the 29th fret before the frets get too close to be playable. Plus, I'm mostly interested in 29 edo for its non-harmonic sounds, while also having very pure 4ths and fifths. I'm probably just going to go fretless though.
@@henrikljungstrand2036
Multiples of 29 are quite cool, but I dig it on its own as a xen 'extension' of pythagorean tuning.
@@somepunkinthecomments471 If you think 58 is too many notes for a single instrument, then just watch the Qanun, which has 72 notes per octave iirc!
For a guitar you can sort of solve the problem of too many bands per string, through using every other, or every third note etc of your edo, per string, and then tuning the open strings to each other in such a way that you get all (or most of) the other notes on other strings.
This has been done for 41edo on the Kite guitar, which uses every other note of 41edo on each string ("20½edo"), keeping the most important melodic intervals between notes of one single string, while allowing other intervals in chords involving several strings.
There is also a 31edo guitar, that has been played a bit by a few people (search for "transcendent tonality" or something like that), though i imagine it to be quite hard, since you need to find the right balance between too long a guitar neck for your arm, and too narrow bands for your fingers.
The "minor" 3rd has its place, the beating seems to give a reasonable speed to play along to. I'd want a secondary option in addition to that, tho.
And it seems to get along with the other too flat tones
quartal and quintal harmony are some good secondary options!
This tuning has really grown on me. My first introduction to different EDOs was Adam Neely's microtonal lofi video, and he compared 17edo to 19edo. Back then, I thought 19edo sounded way better. Now, I think 17edo is stellar and 19edo is overrated.
since writing this comment, i have ultimately come to prefer 19 over 17 in general, but they really aren't comparable
Can we have 3rd episodes on some of the tunings, using different layouts eg. godzilla layout for 19, porcupine layout for 22, slendric for 31???
Do 46EDO next!
Will there be a video for 15 EDO?
I think I like 22, quarter tone, 31 better... maybe after some time it would grow on me, like a cyst.🤣 Nobody said you have to like every tuning. Sometimes it depends on my mood, too, as much as the tuning itself.
34edo is better than 17edo. And 68edo is better still. They are extensions of 17edo, with the same fifth, but better thirds etcetera.
Is it possible with the Lumatone to create a 17 note scale based on the Persian model taking the chromatic scale and adding microtones, like a note between Db and D and Eb and E ect, rather than splitting the octave in equal amount pitches.
Or then taking that further by only choosing specific note intervals in the chromatic scale and adding two notes between Eb and E and Bb and B for instance?
I was also thinking about being able to replicate all the most common ragas of Indian classical music, some of which may use a microtone in relation to the third for instance, but in two different ragas those microtones have differences in cents intervals, even though they both relate to the same degree of the scale.
I was thinking that maybe the 31EDO has all the microtonal variations that would enable a host of different Indian ragas to be played on the one layout, since unless I am mistaken in that tuning there are three pitches between every whole step, which would mean between C and D there would be an added pitch on either side of Db. I think if that is the case, that tuning would enable the playing of most all Indian ragas. Thanks for any clarification much appreciated.
Dropbox file isnt working! :)
Thanks again, Dave! 17 can quickly take both you and you audience out of their comfort zone, _and I love it_ for that!
1:37 - Sorry if I’m nitpicking here, but did you mean to say “quarter-comma meantone” here, rather than “quartertone”?
Nah he's talking about shared frameworks for Arabic and Middle Eastern/near-Eastern music forms: Ibn Sina and al-Farabi came up with a bunch of really nice old tunings, there was a period where 17-tone Pythagorean was used, there was a bit of exploration on the neutral intervals, and later on, a 24-tone "quarter-tone" framework was sort of imposed on the musics of the region, although most of the practice wasn't really equally tempered at all. However, because of that, we've had about a century of people both inside and outside the Arabic world thinking that they're basically just using "quarter-tones" when the reality is a little different... Third-tones and the 17-tone framework is still more applicable in Iran than probably anywhere else.
@@camtaylormusic, ah, OK. Taken in the usual sense of quartertones as equal- or nearly-equal-temperament. So “before quartertone” in that sense doesn’t say much. But in the context you described, yes, that does have meaning.
14 next! 14 next!
wait.. 17 from THIRTEENTH CENTURY? in the middle east too?! bruh thats even older than 19 haha
17 tone UNEQUAL scales from the 13th century middle east. More or less Just Intonation scales. Not 17edo, that is much younger.
notice how i never said EDO anywhere? @@henrikljungstrand2036