Here after the new update, this was very helpful! You should do an updated version because i feel like this new update requires a lot more suspension tuning
Bro was trying so hard not laugh 2:04 when pulling out the stroller. Other wise awesome explanation man. Been wanting a video that took a deep dive into this topic.
OK. I watched this video last month, and a lot of stuff sounded wrong so I bought Tune to Win by Carroll Smith. I think I'm just starting to get the hang of it. 2:44 - First, stiffening the anti-roll bar doesn't keep the tire on the ground--it's actually doing the opposite. The stiffness of the rollbar actually causes more load to be transferred between the two tires. In the worst case, like your stroller that has very high stiffness, the inside wheel will actually come off the ground. 3:44 - More downforce/load on a tire gives you better grip for that tire, not less. What's actually happening when you stiffen the anti-roll bar is that there is even less load on the inside tire, and more load on the outside tire. Since you get diminishing returns on grip per load, transferring more weight from the inside to outside tire results in an overall loss of grip (you lose more grip on the inside than you gain on the outside). So you get understeer because the stiffness of the anti-roll bar has caused increased load transfer on the front tires, reducing total grip between the two of them. 7:45 - More load = more grip. More load on the front tires means more grip on the front tires which means less understeer. I think your intuition about loading is backwards, but your understanding of how loading effects grip is also backwards, so they cancel each other out and you come to the right conclusion, lol. I *think* high damping on the rear means that load transfer happens very quickly, so you end up rapidly de-loading the front tires on corner exit which takes away grip from the front resulting in understeer. 13:30 - Not so sure if that drag argument holds any water. My understanding is that the the springs have one job: keep the tires on the ground. If you make them too stiff you and you hit a bump and the tires can't respond fast enough, then the whole car flies up in the air and you lose contact with the ground, and therefore grip. Generally, I think the stiffer the springs are the better--so long as you keep the tires on the ground. I think it was Mount Panorama in this last manufacturers, where my 650S was losing control on the curbs so I loosened the springs just a few clicks and it made the car much more stable over the curbs. You want to tune the frequency to the bumpiness of the track and your use of curbs. Just my 2 cents. I'm still learning, too.
You have 4 points, so I'll reply to them in order: 1. I agree that an over stiff bar can have disastrous effects for lateral weight transfer, but it is true that if the momentum of a car is great enough entering a corner and the body roll is significant enough, the car will tip over (the other extreme). 2. More load on a tire does give it more grip, but I would be careful of equating downforce on a car to load on a tire. This probably is already known but downforce is the same as lift in the opposite direction, applied to the car. Load on a tire can come from different things as well and it is NOT universally good. What I also don't talk about in this video is the body roll effect on tire camber, just because I think it was too much. But I'm sure that the book also includes something on that. This also deals with argument #1 in some ways, that if you increase the camber there is less tire contacting the ground, resulting in less traction. While we're focusing on the loss of load on the inside tire, we can't ignore that if there is too MUCH load on a tire, it will not perform. The video of me taking the stroller around a left is maintaining that camber angle of the front left wheel. Which an ARB also does. 3. "More load on the front tires means more grip on the front tires which means less understeer." Again, if you have too much load on a tire, it will not perform. Softening a front suspension on compression allows for the absorption of some of these loads. If you have a stiff suspension the full load will go to the tires more immediately and the tires won't do their job - to turn. I've pinned some links that Islandgrown posted in the general chat on the discord that explains this. I'd encourage you to test this yourself at the extremes to see the difference on your ability to enter (and exit) a corner. Most tunes for races knock down the front compression. I don't think my understanding is backwards, I think that we're looking at two different extremes, and I didn't explain what happens if you go the other extreme. I also think you are looking at the end result, and not the process by which it happens. It is VERY easy to overload tires. As I write this, I think I should have taken care to cover what happens on the other side because I feel like I might be giving the impression that there is only one good side. 4. I beg to differ, the springs job is to control the weight transfer of a car during multiple events. The time mark your posting here is when I'm talking about natural frequency and the stiffness of the waveform. I probably should have used flatness instead or another word because stiffness is probably not it. But in either case, natural frequency controls how the suspension dissipates after a disturbance, if you're car's profile (high/low) is changing during that dissipation, the aero also changes. Complete dissipation is 0Hz, so the question on a straight is how quickly can you get there (obviously a track always has bumps even on straights, so you'll never get exactly there but I think you know what I mean). Taking this to extreme that is visible by the human eye, a car that continuously is bumping up and down, will never go as fast as a car that isn't on a straight all other things equal. When you refer to Mt. Panorama, you're saying you lowered the natural frequency to gain more control coming out of Forrest's Elbow? I'm not sure what loosened means here.
@@McNaughty No, mainly accelerating out of Murray's Corner and Hell's corner. I lowered the natural frequency so that the tires could respond faster to the bumpiness of the curbs which made it easier to get on the power earlier. Forrest's Elbow is pretty smooth so I didn't have any problem getting on the power there. I had watched that video Island posted back around the time I watched your video, along with many, many others--but being a physicist, I was unsatisfied with the lack of physical explanation. That's why I picked up Carroll Smith's book, as well as Vehicle Racecar Dynamics by Milliken.
I still have a few minutes left but this video legitimately is helping me finally understand tuning! Think you can do the same format for other concepts in the game like tow angle and whatnot in the future?
Hey i was planning to have a dynamic mic for streaming I saw your video you are using q2u and i have some questions does it worth buying this mic ? Do you find any major cons to not buy it? should i save more and get another option? Please share your experience it will be a huge help.
I actually had this mic already from before I started streaming. I think it's pretty good but it's certainly not the best with popping noises. I think the best feature it has is the inline output and it can act as a speaker on Windows also. Not many dynamic mics have that functionality. So if that's what you need, it's not a bad price point for it
I hear what you're saying with cause and effect but, natural frequency of any spring is the rate at which it oscillates when it's not disturbed. Stiffening does result in the increase of NF. But it's doesn't explain what Natural Frequency actually IS.
@@McNaughty Natural frequency is easy to use because it is weight agnostic. You don't care about weight distribution if you use NF to indicate stiffness. Otherwise you would have to set spring stiffness proportional to the weight on the axis, but with NF when you change weight distribution the game automatically adjusts stiffness to match NF. There is no any oscillation effect that you need to take into account.
I'm confused. NF = sqrt(k/m)/2π. m is mass. I don't know what you mean by it being agnostic in a general sense. If you mean the game will take into account the variables of the NF to get to a certain frequency, I agree with.
@@McNaughty You define stiffness by using NF and don't need to change it when weight of the car changes. It's convenient. But frequency on its own doesn't have any implications.
That's not true that frequency has no implications, though. If you increase NF and the mass is constant, you are increasing the spring rate, which is what you're saying. A stiffer spring increases the rate that it oscillates when undisturbed (and how violently it oscillates when disturbed). This is true of any spring, not just one in a suspension. However as part of a suspension, this increase of frequency, means the response to stimuli (bumps in a road) is felt in greater detail. Sure you can say that the value is tied to the stiffness of a spring, but that sentence alone doesn't tell you what the effect of that is, or why it does what it does, why the value is measured in Hertz, what a Hertz is, so on and so forth. There's a lot of things that you can "not take into account" when tuning, but that's not what I'm aiming to do here.
Here after the new update, this was very helpful! You should do an updated version because i feel like this new update requires a lot more suspension tuning
Bro was trying so hard not laugh 2:04 when pulling out the stroller. Other wise awesome explanation man. Been wanting a video that took a deep dive into this topic.
OK. I watched this video last month, and a lot of stuff sounded wrong so I bought Tune to Win by Carroll Smith. I think I'm just starting to get the hang of it.
2:44 - First, stiffening the anti-roll bar doesn't keep the tire on the ground--it's actually doing the opposite. The stiffness of the rollbar actually causes more load to be transferred between the two tires. In the worst case, like your stroller that has very high stiffness, the inside wheel will actually come off the ground.
3:44 - More downforce/load on a tire gives you better grip for that tire, not less. What's actually happening when you stiffen the anti-roll bar is that there is even less load on the inside tire, and more load on the outside tire. Since you get diminishing returns on grip per load, transferring more weight from the inside to outside tire results in an overall loss of grip (you lose more grip on the inside than you gain on the outside). So you get understeer because the stiffness of the anti-roll bar has caused increased load transfer on the front tires, reducing total grip between the two of them.
7:45 - More load = more grip. More load on the front tires means more grip on the front tires which means less understeer. I think your intuition about loading is backwards, but your understanding of how loading effects grip is also backwards, so they cancel each other out and you come to the right conclusion, lol. I *think* high damping on the rear means that load transfer happens very quickly, so you end up rapidly de-loading the front tires on corner exit which takes away grip from the front resulting in understeer.
13:30 - Not so sure if that drag argument holds any water. My understanding is that the the springs have one job: keep the tires on the ground. If you make them too stiff you and you hit a bump and the tires can't respond fast enough, then the whole car flies up in the air and you lose contact with the ground, and therefore grip. Generally, I think the stiffer the springs are the better--so long as you keep the tires on the ground. I think it was Mount Panorama in this last manufacturers, where my 650S was losing control on the curbs so I loosened the springs just a few clicks and it made the car much more stable over the curbs. You want to tune the frequency to the bumpiness of the track and your use of curbs.
Just my 2 cents. I'm still learning, too.
You have 4 points, so I'll reply to them in order:
1. I agree that an over stiff bar can have disastrous effects for lateral weight transfer, but it is true that if the momentum of a car is great enough entering a corner and the body roll is significant enough, the car will tip over (the other extreme).
2. More load on a tire does give it more grip, but I would be careful of equating downforce on a car to load on a tire. This probably is already known but downforce is the same as lift in the opposite direction, applied to the car. Load on a tire can come from different things as well and it is NOT universally good.
What I also don't talk about in this video is the body roll effect on tire camber, just because I think it was too much. But I'm sure that the book also includes something on that. This also deals with argument #1 in some ways, that if you increase the camber there is less tire contacting the ground, resulting in less traction. While we're focusing on the loss of load on the inside tire, we can't ignore that if there is too MUCH load on a tire, it will not perform. The video of me taking the stroller around a left is maintaining that camber angle of the front left wheel. Which an ARB also does.
3. "More load on the front tires means more grip on the front tires which means less understeer."
Again, if you have too much load on a tire, it will not perform. Softening a front suspension on compression allows for the absorption of some of these loads. If you have a stiff suspension the full load will go to the tires more immediately and the tires won't do their job - to turn. I've pinned some links that Islandgrown posted in the general chat on the discord that explains this. I'd encourage you to test this yourself at the extremes to see the difference on your ability to enter (and exit) a corner. Most tunes for races knock down the front compression.
I don't think my understanding is backwards, I think that we're looking at two different extremes, and I didn't explain what happens if you go the other extreme. I also think you are looking at the end result, and not the process by which it happens. It is VERY easy to overload tires.
As I write this, I think I should have taken care to cover what happens on the other side because I feel like I might be giving the impression that there is only one good side.
4. I beg to differ, the springs job is to control the weight transfer of a car during multiple events. The time mark your posting here is when I'm talking about natural frequency and the stiffness of the waveform. I probably should have used flatness instead or another word because stiffness is probably not it. But in either case, natural frequency controls how the suspension dissipates after a disturbance, if you're car's profile (high/low) is changing during that dissipation, the aero also changes. Complete dissipation is 0Hz, so the question on a straight is how quickly can you get there (obviously a track always has bumps even on straights, so you'll never get exactly there but I think you know what I mean).
Taking this to extreme that is visible by the human eye, a car that continuously is bumping up and down, will never go as fast as a car that isn't on a straight all other things equal.
When you refer to Mt. Panorama, you're saying you lowered the natural frequency to gain more control coming out of Forrest's Elbow? I'm not sure what loosened means here.
@@McNaughty No, mainly accelerating out of Murray's Corner and Hell's corner. I lowered the natural frequency so that the tires could respond faster to the bumpiness of the curbs which made it easier to get on the power earlier. Forrest's Elbow is pretty smooth so I didn't have any problem getting on the power there.
I had watched that video Island posted back around the time I watched your video, along with many, many others--but being a physicist, I was unsatisfied with the lack of physical explanation. That's why I picked up Carroll Smith's book, as well as Vehicle Racecar Dynamics by Milliken.
This is very informative and also smart and creative that you were able to illustrate with a stroller! Good job sir
I still have a few minutes left but this video legitimately is helping me finally understand tuning!
Think you can do the same format for other concepts in the game like tow angle and whatnot in the future?
Great descriptions. Well done sir!
Amazing work just like an engineer 😅
Hey i was planning to have a dynamic mic for streaming
I saw your video you are using q2u and i have some questions
does it worth buying this mic ?
Do you find any major cons to not buy it?
should i save more and get another option?
Please share your experience it will be a huge help.
I actually had this mic already from before I started streaming. I think it's pretty good but it's certainly not the best with popping noises.
I think the best feature it has is the inline output and it can act as a speaker on Windows also. Not many dynamic mics have that functionality. So if that's what you need, it's not a bad price point for it
Good info 👍🏻
Very cool
That natural ferquency exlanation is very off. It's simply a stiffness of a suspension.
I hear what you're saying with cause and effect but, natural frequency of any spring is the rate at which it oscillates when it's not disturbed.
Stiffening does result in the increase of NF. But it's doesn't explain what Natural Frequency actually IS.
@@McNaughty Natural frequency is easy to use because it is weight agnostic. You don't care about weight distribution if you use NF to indicate stiffness. Otherwise you would have to set spring stiffness proportional to the weight on the axis, but with NF when you change weight distribution the game automatically adjusts stiffness to match NF. There is no any oscillation effect that you need to take into account.
I'm confused. NF = sqrt(k/m)/2π. m is mass. I don't know what you mean by it being agnostic in a general sense. If you mean the game will take into account the variables of the NF to get to a certain frequency, I agree with.
@@McNaughty You define stiffness by using NF and don't need to change it when weight of the car changes. It's convenient. But frequency on its own doesn't have any implications.
That's not true that frequency has no implications, though. If you increase NF and the mass is constant, you are increasing the spring rate, which is what you're saying. A stiffer spring increases the rate that it oscillates when undisturbed (and how violently it oscillates when disturbed).
This is true of any spring, not just one in a suspension. However as part of a suspension, this increase of frequency, means the response to stimuli (bumps in a road) is felt in greater detail.
Sure you can say that the value is tied to the stiffness of a spring, but that sentence alone doesn't tell you what the effect of that is, or why it does what it does, why the value is measured in Hertz, what a Hertz is, so on and so forth.
There's a lot of things that you can "not take into account" when tuning, but that's not what I'm aiming to do here.
👍👍
I'm not smarter then a toddler