I really think this was the most beautiful shoot you have ever filmed JP. The topography was breathtaking. I’m too old to shoot now but if I did, I would choose this one 👍
Just ask the pickers up about how many wounded birds they dispatch when steel is used. My experience picking up is 20% wounded with lead.....65% with Steel.....we need longer to make a considered and developed change.....get it right not just right now. Thanks for speaking up JP.
Hi Lauren thanks for watching and commenting. Totally agree, its not just about how steel feel and work for a gun but also what the end result is, and that means listening to pickers up. Unfortunately the biggest problem for the manufacturers is producing a shell that works whilst complying with all the rules and regulation's being set out.
@@theseatedgun2377 Hello JP, well today shoot was fantastic, but I found still, you has to add more lead as I was shooting be-hide on the 1st drive. Just had to get my head round it. But there was not any Hi birds on today shoot to test them fully sadly
As a U. S. Waterfowler, I have no complaints about steel shot. I would encourage all to use higher velocity loads (1400 fps). Also increase shot size one to two sizes, if normally shooting lead 6, use steel 4. Always pattern test your load and shotgun. Often times a more open choke is helpful with steel. You must be aware that there will be considerably less pellet deformation and the shot string will be much shorter with steel, making good shooting critical to success. Read the works of Tom Roster for good technical details and helpful pointers. Beautiful dog work!
I agree entirely about steel. My findings are, particularly with duck, that although I am hitting them at 30-35yards and they do come down, a clean kill occurs mostly with a head shot and that that plainly with a 20 bore 25 grm load is not guaranteed. Much more work is needed and the change over period is seriously insufficient.
Watched your video with interest. Maybe a tip. We (in Holland) have been shooting with steel shot cartridges for over 20 years now. Forget about the super long shots - focus on the birds up to 35 meters. You will see that it works fine. I don't know the details/quality of the Eley steel shot cartridge, but there are more manufacturers. Marry X-mas from The Netherlands.
Hi Tok, thanks for watching! Appreciate the comment and you are right as I said in the film birds between 25 - 30 metres were easily coming down, however the point is that as a hunter you should be able to choose what you want to shoot based on your ability, not what's dictated by a cartridges ability. If a cartridge is not right then the hunter should pick a load that suits them and is correct for the quarry. To only shoot birds that are for example 35 metres as a max would eliminate multitudes of estates and guns from the sport. Thanks for watching!
Well shot, most guns are saying the same about the steel, not killing the birds. I’m having to use bismuth cartridges in the 16 bore as they don’t do a felt wad yet in the steel, not sure they are as good as lead either. Look forward to the next video, take care. Dave.
Been using steel since 1978 on waterfowl in my part of U.S. Vast improvements since 1978, but does not compare to downrange energy of lead. I use bismuth, comes closer to lead. Bismuth allows you to choke as you did with lead. When using steel I learned to limit shots to no more than 35 to 40 yards. I hope your high Pheasant shooting can continue. I appreciate the respect you show for the birds and fellow shooter's
We're just going to have to get used to steel and I think it'll help once they start bringing out high performance steel and not just standard steel. I've found standard steel works really well on clays though . I use Eley VIP steel in my 20bore and they work for what I do , but I don't do driven days.
Totally agree Hammy, and on clays it doesn't take much to break them, but on driven game I think every hunter wants to see clean and humane kills. Thanks for watching!
JP just a point ref your comment about steel, you used No3’s which probably won have enough pattern density to provide a suitable pattern. A small change to No4’s will probably provide the kills you want. Remember it’s pattern quality that kills birds!
If you want to know about how to get the best out of steel, ask a wildfowler; Speed needs higher velocities (~1400 fps) and larger pellets, with heavier payloads and tighter chokes not being bad ideas either. Despite its claims to be a 32g 3 cartridge, the eley eco steel is in fact a 32g 4 cartridge (as 3.25mm is the maximum allowable size for standard steel cartridges), and the velocity on Eleys own website is stated as 1235 fps, slower than many lead cartridges. On a cold day, it'll be even slower than that. Of all the current eco steel offerings, I would class Eley's as the worst of the lot. With that said, I've seen Canada geese dropped at 40 yards with 3 shot steel, so 32g of 4 shot should bring down partridge without much difficulty. I would respectfully suggest that part of the problem may be that you're not hitting them quite as centrally in the pattern as you think you are.
Hi Thanks for your comments and watching, as I said I think there is still work to be done from both cartridge manufacturers and guns to adapt to steel over lead.
Lovely shooting, I have a question if you wouldn’t mind answering, I occasionally shoot pigeon but I need to use steel shot purely because I feed my hunting hawk the bird after removing the breast. My question is does steel damage barrels.
Hi firstly thanks for watching. in answer to your question and in short, you can not use steel without the gun being steel proofed, and you definitely can not use high performance steel without the barrels being "fleur de lys" stamped. For pigeon shooting i would recommend a 32/4 which will be ample you would still need to ensure your gun is steel proofed to use these, and only with a maximum 1/4 and 1/2 choke. personally I would use an open and 1/4 chokes. hope that helps!
Hi David, first and foremost thanks for watching and welcome to the channel. Unfortunately Steel is not currently available in the same size array's as lead. There are a lot of load sizes covered but depending on brand some are limited. At Stockton we were using a 32/3, on the last drive we swopped over to lead and used Zenith 34/4. However in answer to your question, yes, however we wanted to test what we would normally shoot partridge with and that would be a 32/5 or 6 in lead, so the 32/3 steel is a direct alternative. Hope you enjoy the channel!
My suggestion with steel: more retrievers behind the drive and at least 1 retriever with each gun. So if you knocked them down instead of killing them. As fast as possible retrieve the bird because when they “recover” much harder to find them for the dogs. Karel belgium
Hi Jason, thanks for watching. Yes they are the creation of master tailor SAM HENRY at Samuels the Tailors in wellingborough. Well worth a visit and super well priced!
Hi Ross, yes I do! but to be fair most shoots now ask you to use your own vehicles so its not massively missed, just on the odd occasion like here! Thanks for watching!
Steel is a compromise. But choke upto 3/4 on number 4 for the close up fast partridge and use 34/36g number 1s through modified for the higher birds. Never use steel slower than 1400 fps at muzzle. It's against UK guidelines but many US hunters use high performance Steel effectively through tighter chokes than half? Using the same guns we use.... I have been using non toxic/steel on UK Marshes since 1999 and have tried most.
Great video as usual, constructive comments on steel. Why on earth are BASC etc proposing a lead ban in 2024. Better it went through parliament with the right scientific evidence, than throw are hands in the air!! To me we will do more harm to shooting using steel than with lead!
Hi Sam, thanks for watching and your comments. Unfortunately its the old adage, lots of people talking and pressurizing a decision because it sounds the right thing to do. Unfortunately BASC as an organization I believe are caught in the middle trying to educate.
well i'm not being awkward here but eley steel are not the greatest to be honest i've been using steel since 2018 on pigeon duck pheasant tried allsorts of steel cartridges and i can honestly say that fiocchi 32g 4s and RC 32g 4s kill cleanly at 50 yards they are both high performance and the ones i have settled on gamebore super steel are another good cartridge still get runners but no more than you would with lead also 32g 4s have more pellets obviously than the 3s you were using so a denser pattern the more pellets hitting the bird the better the chance of killing it i would rather use lead myself but i'm getting used to steel now so it wont feel like a big change when lead is banned
Have you tried patterning your gun with steel you keep going on about speed but there not that much slower than lead. Speed shouldn’t be a huge factor but the pattern is. They could be the fastest cartridges out there but if they don’t pattern with your gun you have no chance
Hi Simon thanks for commenting and watching, yes I've actually patterned with both steel and lead, undoubtably the steel was tighter as that is a characteristic, however speed wise there is some difference. I use Eley Zenith as choice which runs out at 1356fps compared to the steel at 1250fps.
To be honest I’ve never rated those ELEY if you like fast cartridges the game bore and R.c are a lot faster and definitely perform more consistent specially on the higher stuff
Hi Mark, everyone's filmed Upperwood! and we like to be different, if you like the high stuff check out our Brigands film! and we've got some great films coming of high birds in Devon. Thanks for watching
@@thefemalegamekeeper5509 Hi and thanks for watching we are actually planning a couple of European trips next season so keep your eyes pealed! would love to include Tuscany so please do let me know any info!
@@theseatedgun2377 we run a good driven shoot in Tuscany Vico D'elsa about 35mins south of Florence north of Siena. Great topography and climate. We shoot mainly double guns from October untill the end of January. Possible to even have a chance of a boar or roe deer from a stand the day before.
Not the best start, jesting about winged vermin being buzzards and sparrow hawks, lm a shooter and hate the idea of game keeper's shooting such birds, but a realest... Why mention such a thing when so many people will jump on to such a comment?
Hi Paul thanks for your comments and watching. I can assure you The shoot Host / captain is a hugely accomplished man having farmed that estate for many years and in no way would condone shooting buzzards, kites or other. He does say "legal winged vermin" in his instructions and although refers to kites and such like as vermin he makes it very clear they are not to be shot. As someone who appreciates the countryside along with my team I can honestly and truthfully say neither I or any of the team would ever knowingly allow any such bird to be shot.
@@CM-tk3je Hi thanks for watching, unfortunately it is amazing how many so called "experienced" guns still have to be told. It is one of the biggest issues with the sport. That you can just decide you want a gun, go get a licence and then go on a game shoot without any formal understanding or training. Experience comes from years of shooting not spending a few Saturday's at the local clay ground. So as any shoot captain / host will confirm by not knowing guns from one day to the next and regardless, by spelling it out its the only way shoots can state that "you were told". I can recount several occasions where as a roving single gun I've been on shoots with so called experienced guns and the issues I've seen are just a joke, from one gun shooting at an owl to another sliding his fully loaded closed gun into his slip and stating I'll leave it like that as I am all ready for the next drive! Unfortunately id love to say it doesn't happen but it does! so by stating the obvious one can only hope its understood.
Hi Stuart, I wouldn't disagree with that however doing a direct comparison like we did on very similar birds the ratios of humane clean kills was definitely in favor of lead shot. Thanks for watching!
@@theseatedgun2377 you need to try TSS shot! A No9 size shot has the same energy at 40 yards as a lead No5 shot. Pattern density is unbelievable! It’s nearly double the density of lead so kills 70-80 yard birds far cleaner than big shot
I found my self cringing there unfortunately when your saying birds running off and winged steel not killing them that’s the last thing that needs broadcasting on you tupe
@@simonharrison2207 Hi Simon thanks for watching and commenting, it is appreciated. The reason behind me explaining the difference between lead and steel is to raise the awareness not just with guns but within the organisations making these decisions for guns that steel shot is not the way forward. I do appreciate completely what your saying however if no one tells it how it is the powers that be think everything is ok when its not. What I did fail to mention was that on this particular shoot the volume of picker uppers and dogs was superb so anything that was a "runner" was certainly picked up and dispatched quickly. best regards
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
I really think this was the most beautiful shoot you have ever filmed JP. The topography was breathtaking. I’m too old to shoot now but if I did, I would choose this one 👍
Another fantastic video, thoroughly enjoyed as always 🙂
Thanks Rico
Super to hear an open and honest review on steel shot and the difference how much lead was required. Well done JP.
Thanks John, and thanks for watching!
Well done For being open and honest and letting us know how crap steel cartridges are 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Hi Paul, thanks for watching! Like everything in life, changes take time!
Another interesting shoot , love these films , love your honesty
Thanks for watching Alan, your comments are appreciated
Very impressive shoot Jean Paul. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for watching Peter, it really is a super shoot!
Looking sharp as a needle John Paul, Top shooting as always.As a dog man, great to see the picking up good mix of dog's, keep the movies coming.
Thanks for your kind comments Mark, glad you liked it!
Lot of very good shoots round Salisbury and into Dorset
Absolutely!
Just ask the pickers up about how many wounded birds they dispatch when steel is used. My experience picking up is 20% wounded with lead.....65% with Steel.....we need longer to make a considered and developed change.....get it right not just right now. Thanks for speaking up JP.
Hi Lauren thanks for watching and commenting. Totally agree, its not just about how steel feel and work for a gun but also what the end result is, and that means listening to pickers up. Unfortunately the biggest problem for the manufacturers is producing a shell that works whilst complying with all the rules and regulation's being set out.
Great Video as always John Paul !!
Will be using steel for the 1st time on 28th 👍
Thanks Graham, pleased you enjoyed! good luck with the steels, let me know your thoughts!
@@theseatedgun2377 Hello JP, well today shoot was fantastic, but I found still, you has to add more lead as I was shooting be-hide on the 1st drive.
Just had to get my head round it.
But there was not any Hi birds on today shoot to test them fully sadly
its good to you still shooting using the wheelchair! i have back probs but dont have any means of a atv,would be great to have 1.just subscribed.
Hi Jon thanks for subscribing! Most of the estates will provide one if you ask!
As a U. S. Waterfowler, I have no complaints about steel shot. I would encourage all to use higher velocity loads (1400 fps). Also increase shot size one to two sizes, if normally shooting lead 6, use steel 4. Always pattern test your load and shotgun. Often times a more open choke is helpful with steel. You must be aware that there will be considerably less pellet deformation and the shot string will be much shorter with steel, making good shooting critical to success. Read the works of Tom Roster for good technical details and helpful pointers.
Beautiful dog work!
Una elegancia sus cazerias amigos saludos
I agree entirely about steel. My findings are, particularly with duck, that although I am hitting them at 30-35yards and they do come down, a clean kill occurs mostly with a head shot and that that plainly with a 20 bore 25 grm load is not guaranteed. Much more work is needed
and the change over period is seriously insufficient.
Thanks for commenting and watching it is appreciated!
Watched your video with interest. Maybe a tip. We (in Holland) have been shooting with steel shot cartridges for over 20 years now. Forget about the super long shots - focus on the birds up to 35 meters. You will see that it works fine.
I don't know the details/quality of the Eley steel shot cartridge, but there are more manufacturers. Marry X-mas from The Netherlands.
Hi Tok, thanks for watching! Appreciate the comment and you are right as I said in the film birds between 25 - 30 metres were easily coming down, however the point is that as a hunter you should be able to choose what you want to shoot based on your ability, not what's dictated by a cartridges ability. If a cartridge is not right then the hunter should pick a load that suits them and is correct for the quarry. To only shoot birds that are for example 35 metres as a max would eliminate multitudes of estates and guns from the sport. Thanks for watching!
Well shot, most guns are saying the same about the steel, not killing the birds. I’m having to use bismuth cartridges in the 16 bore as they don’t do a felt wad yet in the steel, not sure they are as good as lead either. Look forward to the next video, take care. Dave.
Hi Dave, thanks for watching and commenting.
Been using steel since 1978 on waterfowl in my part of U.S. Vast improvements since 1978, but does not compare to downrange energy of lead. I use bismuth, comes closer to lead. Bismuth allows you to choke as you did with lead. When using steel I learned to limit shots to no more than 35 to 40 yards. I hope your high Pheasant shooting can continue. I appreciate the respect you show for the birds and fellow shooter's
Hi John, thanks for your comments and watching it is appreciated!
We're just going to have to get used to steel and I think it'll help once they start bringing out high performance steel and not just standard steel.
I've found standard steel works really well on clays though .
I use Eley VIP steel in my 20bore and they work for what I do , but I don't do driven days.
Totally agree Hammy, and on clays it doesn't take much to break them, but on driven game I think every hunter wants to see clean and humane kills. Thanks for watching!
They already have high performance steel out there have done for years
JP just a point ref your comment about steel, you used No3’s which probably won have enough pattern density to provide a suitable pattern. A small change to No4’s will probably provide the kills you want. Remember it’s pattern quality that kills birds!
The eley eco steel 32g 3 is actually a size 4 cartridge. He was using number 4's the whole time.
very good, make some more please
There's more coming Nigel, thanks for watching!
If you want to know about how to get the best out of steel, ask a wildfowler;
Speed needs higher velocities (~1400 fps) and larger pellets, with heavier payloads and tighter chokes not being bad ideas either.
Despite its claims to be a 32g 3 cartridge, the eley eco steel is in fact a 32g 4 cartridge (as 3.25mm is the maximum allowable size for standard steel cartridges), and the velocity on Eleys own website is stated as 1235 fps, slower than many lead cartridges. On a cold day, it'll be even slower than that.
Of all the current eco steel offerings, I would class Eley's as the worst of the lot.
With that said, I've seen Canada geese dropped at 40 yards with 3 shot steel, so 32g of 4 shot should bring down partridge without much difficulty. I would respectfully suggest that part of the problem may be that you're not hitting them quite as centrally in the pattern as you think you are.
Hi Thanks for your comments and watching, as I said I think there is still work to be done from both cartridge manufacturers and guns to adapt to steel over lead.
Lovely shooting, I have a question if you wouldn’t mind answering, I occasionally shoot pigeon but I need to use steel shot purely because I feed my hunting hawk the bird after removing the breast.
My question is does steel damage barrels.
Hi firstly thanks for watching. in answer to your question and in short, you can not use steel without the gun being steel proofed, and you definitely can not use high performance steel without the barrels being "fleur de lys" stamped. For pigeon shooting i would recommend a 32/4 which will be ample you would still need to ensure your gun is steel proofed to use these, and only with a maximum 1/4 and 1/2 choke. personally I would use an open and 1/4 chokes. hope that helps!
@@theseatedgun2377 Thank you that helps tremendously, appreciate the answer.
Thank you and enjoy your season
Hello, I am new to your channel, I am not sure what load or shot size you was using but would a heavier load and bigger shot size been better to use?
Hi David, first and foremost thanks for watching and welcome to the channel. Unfortunately Steel is not currently available in the same size array's as lead. There are a lot of load sizes covered but depending on brand some are limited. At Stockton we were using a 32/3, on the last drive we swopped over to lead and used Zenith 34/4. However in answer to your question, yes, however we wanted to test what we would normally shoot partridge with and that would be a 32/5 or 6 in lead, so the 32/3 steel is a direct alternative. Hope you enjoy the channel!
My suggestion with steel: more retrievers behind the drive and at least 1 retriever with each gun. So if you knocked them down instead of killing them. As fast as possible retrieve the bird because when they “recover” much harder to find them for the dogs. Karel belgium
Hi Karel, absolutely! thanks for watching and commenting.
Love the tweeds JP! are they custom made?
Hi Jason, thanks for watching. Yes they are the creation of master tailor SAM HENRY at Samuels the Tailors in wellingborough. Well worth a visit and super well priced!
Do you miss going in the gun bus at all?
Hi Ross, yes I do! but to be fair most shoots now ask you to use your own vehicles so its not massively missed, just on the odd occasion like here! Thanks for watching!
Steel is a compromise. But choke upto 3/4 on number 4 for the close up fast partridge and use 34/36g number 1s through modified for the higher birds. Never use steel slower than 1400 fps at muzzle.
It's against UK guidelines but many US hunters use high performance Steel effectively through tighter chokes than half? Using the same guns we use....
I have been using non toxic/steel on UK Marshes since 1999 and have tried most.
I think there is quite abit of playing around with set up and cartridges to get it right. Thanks for your comments and watching!
Great video as usual, constructive comments on steel. Why on earth are BASC etc proposing a lead ban in 2024. Better it went through parliament with the right scientific evidence, than throw are hands in the air!! To me we will do more harm to shooting using steel than with lead!
Hi Sam, thanks for watching and your comments. Unfortunately its the old adage, lots of people talking and pressurizing a decision because it sounds the right thing to do. Unfortunately BASC as an organization I believe are caught in the middle trying to educate.
You still using zenith 36 4s on highest birds ?
Absolutely Alan!
well i'm not being awkward here but eley steel are not the greatest to be honest i've been using steel since 2018 on pigeon duck pheasant tried allsorts of steel cartridges and i can honestly say that fiocchi 32g 4s and RC 32g 4s kill cleanly at 50 yards they are both high performance and the ones i have settled on gamebore super steel are another good cartridge still get runners but no more than you would with lead also 32g 4s have more pellets obviously than the 3s you were using so a denser pattern the more pellets hitting the bird the better the chance of killing it i would rather use lead myself but i'm getting used to steel now so it wont feel like a big change when lead is banned
Hi thanks for watching and commenting, I think like you've said all we can do is try and get used to it!
Have you tried patterning your gun with steel you keep going on about speed but there not that much slower than lead. Speed shouldn’t be a huge factor but the pattern is. They could be the fastest cartridges out there but if they don’t pattern with your gun you have no chance
Hi Simon thanks for commenting and watching, yes I've actually patterned with both steel and lead, undoubtably the steel was tighter as that is a characteristic, however speed wise there is some difference. I use Eley Zenith as choice which runs out at 1356fps compared to the steel at 1250fps.
To be honest I’ve never rated those ELEY if you like fast cartridges the game bore and R.c are a lot faster and definitely perform more consistent specially on the higher stuff
Never mind the low birds what about an upperwood film 😀
Hi Mark, everyone's filmed Upperwood! and we like to be different, if you like the high stuff check out our Brigands film! and we've got some great films coming of high birds in Devon. Thanks for watching
@theseatedhin What about some international European driven shooting? We have a nice shoot here in Tuscany with quality driven shooting.
@@thefemalegamekeeper5509 Hi and thanks for watching we are actually planning a couple of European trips next season so keep your eyes pealed! would love to include Tuscany so please do let me know any info!
@@theseatedgun2377 we run a good driven shoot in Tuscany Vico D'elsa about 35mins south of Florence north of Siena. Great topography and climate. We shoot mainly double guns from October untill the end of January. Possible to even have a chance of a boar or roe deer from a stand the day before.
@@thefemalegamekeeper5509 Please do message me the info at hello@seated-gun.com as love to know more
Not the best start, jesting about winged vermin being buzzards and sparrow hawks, lm a shooter and hate the idea of game keeper's shooting such birds, but a realest... Why mention such a thing when so many people will jump on to such a comment?
I thought exactly the same. Bit daft if you ask me.
Hi Paul thanks for your comments and watching. I can assure you The shoot Host / captain is a hugely accomplished man having farmed that estate for many years and in no way would condone shooting buzzards, kites or other. He does say "legal winged vermin" in his instructions and although refers to kites and such like as vermin he makes it very clear they are not to be shot. As someone who appreciates the countryside along with my team I can honestly and truthfully say neither I or any of the team would ever knowingly allow any such bird to be shot.
Very silly to make this type of comment in a shoot briefing, why would you even have to discuss not shooting birds of prey!
@@CM-tk3je Hi thanks for watching, unfortunately it is amazing how many so called "experienced" guns still have to be told. It is one of the biggest issues with the sport. That you can just decide you want a gun, go get a licence and then go on a game shoot without any formal understanding or training. Experience comes from years of shooting not spending a few Saturday's at the local clay ground. So as any shoot captain / host will confirm by not knowing guns from one day to the next and regardless, by spelling it out its the only way shoots can state that "you were told". I can recount several occasions where as a roving single gun I've been on shoots with so called experienced guns and the issues I've seen are just a joke, from one gun shooting at an owl to another sliding his fully loaded closed gun into his slip and stating I'll leave it like that as I am all ready for the next drive! Unfortunately id love to say it doesn't happen but it does! so by stating the obvious one can only hope its understood.
I’m sorry to disagree with you steel can prick or wound just as much as
Lead
Hi Stuart, I wouldn't disagree with that however doing a direct comparison like we did on very similar birds the ratios of humane clean kills was definitely in favor of lead shot. Thanks for watching!
@@theseatedgun2377 you need to try TSS shot! A No9 size shot has the same energy at 40 yards as a lead No5 shot. Pattern density is unbelievable! It’s nearly double the density of lead so kills 70-80 yard birds far cleaner than big shot
@@stuartcrane9409 Thanks Stuart ill have a look
I found my self cringing there unfortunately when your saying birds running off and winged steel not killing them that’s the last thing that needs broadcasting on you tupe
@@simonharrison2207 Hi Simon thanks for watching and commenting, it is appreciated. The reason behind me explaining the difference between lead and steel is to raise the awareness not just with guns but within the organisations making these decisions for guns that steel shot is not the way forward. I do appreciate completely what your saying however if no one tells it how it is the powers that be think everything is ok when its not. What I did fail to mention was that on this particular shoot the volume of picker uppers and dogs was superb so anything that was a "runner" was certainly picked up and dispatched quickly. best regards
Already dead that second bird
😉
Far too much unnecessary music.