Shortly after coming out as a woman I started dating a straight man, for the first time in my life. I'm growing into my femininity but I still wear jeans and I dont always wear makeup, and he would give me a hard time about it. I'm grateful to the feminists I had already been exposed to, becuase in that moment I could stand up for myself and say "I do this for me, you can appreciate it or not". Thanks for sharing your experience! ❤
This is a pretty old idea, from at least the 1970s and the "political lesbianism" of radical feminists at the time. Of course, many of them argued that lesbianism was not just a radical identity but a *lifestyle choice* that radicals should adopt even if they aren't, you know. Gay. So, that was a bit of a weird moment in the history of the queer community. But yeah, there is definitely something unique about being a lesbian from that standpoint. Finding desire , or safety, or authenticity outside of those expectations is fucking hard.
Your channel showed up in my recommended. Happy I gave it a watch. Loved the video ! Seeing people explore their gender and what it means to them is one of the most introspective things I feel like someone can do. Finding your identity and expression as well is such a different journey for each person. I’m a trans woman and a lesbian . So my journey was a bit different in that I was always was attracted to women, but didn’t feel like myself in the relationships until I took the time to learn how to be more of myself. Discovering my self expression and my own journey with womanhood has been rly special for me. I also am rly happy my partner has been with me in this journey. She and I have been married almost 10 years and I’ve been out now about 4 . She is bisexual. So def a dif experience. Again thanks for sharing yours !
Thank you so much for watching!!! and sharing your perspective on it, it’s interesting to hear the different experiences within the lesbian/queer world 💜
When I was 24 and started to date women...I felt pushed into dating mascs because of my feminine look. Soon enough I found out the masc/fem preference can be like a subtype of the lesbian/saphic sexual orientation. I really do not like masc looking lesbians, as in not attracted. The stereotypes really harmed me back in the day. Now, I date who I prefer. I seriously clash with mascs since my personality is masculine and I tend to be dominant in the bedroom lol.
you bring up some interesting points. as a genderqueer person I enjoy hearing people talk about their experience with gender, and I definitely agree it can be hard to figure out what is authentic to yourself when you have always been shown (and pushed) such a specific narrative those sound like rough situations to be in (randomly telling someone to go on T because you would like them to have a deeper voice is wild). thanks for sharing your thoughts
Thank you, and thank you for taking the time to watch! I think it is definitely a life long unlearning process when it comes to things like this. Thank you for sharing your thoughts :)
Is it just me or are those discussions kind of lacking in the gay community? I never really see gay men dissect like social stuff about being gay vs hetero.
If anything, in my opinion, being a lesbian made me even more feminine because I’m more comfortable expressing myself without appealing to the male gaze. I started dressing how I want to vs dressing to get a man to approach me, and my confidence skyrocketed!
Interesting food for thought! Thanks for sharing. Gender identity is interesting cause there are various factors and societal norms in our head playing a role in it along with how we feel inside. I imagine that was upsetting and possibly confusing having a partner push you towards more masc than you authentically were and a partner push you towards more fem than you authentically were. Ultimately that hopefully led you back to more deeply knowing and loving your authentic gender identity. In both cases it seems they were not fully accepting and loving the authentic you and instead of supporting you in being yourself they were trying to control your identity to please their preferences. Which yep was maybe a micro version of the macro of how society can be perhaps (if I used those words right haha not sure). Or just an example of someone trying to mold or criticize a partner into being who they want instead of finding a partner compatible with one's preferences. Also one way we learn our preferences is during dating and experimenting - so maybe while dating you those people gradually learned tbeir preferences more. Often dating is very rushed into or with an element of following lust or desperation or impulse or convenience too instead of a slower, more logical "wait, who is deeply compatible first?" Then sex is bonding so then we can get bonded fast to someone not very compatible.
This is such an interesting perspective and insight, I loved reading this. Also it’s sooooo true about the sort of immediate bonding, I’ve actually made a video on that awhile back because it truly is such a huge thing here. Thank you for sharing 💜
It's so interesting to hear everyone's story and experiences. I'm an asexual woman, interested in men. Since I was a child I always felt too masculine. Men in the drag community have actually empowered me towards self-expression and feeling more feminine. Forever grateful for that companionship because I've never been more happy getting to know myself through the drag community.
I’m sorry that you’ve been targeted by such manipulative people. I haven’t experienced this to the same extent that you have, but there are indeed a lot of women who struggle with their identities who will pressure you to change to make them feel better about themselves. I once had a femme partner who wanted me to be more feminine when she wanted to dominate me and more masculine when she wanted to be dominated and didn’t care that I was a real person who couldn’t magically change my presentation and personality for her on a dime, nor that this was a very weird heteronormative attitude to have. She also made sly efforts to make me to gain weight, I found out, because she was jealous that I was more attractive than she was, and only started pressuring me to be more feminine after I gained a lot from antidepressants and she no longer saw me as competition (it scares me how fucked up that sounds written out). At the same time, she pressured me to take on a more masculine role in the relationship and shamed me for showing any kind of weakness… It eventually became clear that she was secretly craving having a male partner (which she admitted to) and was essentially taking that out on me the entire time. She was insecure around me, for one thing, and deep down she was fundamentally unsatisfied with the fact I was a woman and not a man.
Just as a reminder, aroace women aren't out to attract men either. Don't think you were being malicious in saying that lesbians are the only sexuality in that, but still wanted to point it out. Coming from a transmasc perspective (though I dislike that term for myself...I'm non-binary), I feel biased towards seeing those things in what you said, like, not about you but maybe concerning your former partner or their preferences. I heard that there is a huge overlap on stone butches and transmasc people. For me, I am actually into men. But I have such weird gender and sexuality stuff going on it's hard to understand and group myself. I find it interesting that I only hear women talk about these things. You don't hear gay men actually trying to dissect those things, somehow. I'm trying to figure out why that is, why the narratives in those communities seem so different. So, thank you for opening the discussion. I feel like I still need to understand some things to come to conclusions. I'm also sorry for what happened to you in those relationships. Though it seems like it helped you gain a perspective of what you want and who you are, for someone who wasn't as secure in themselves as you it could have been dangerous and quite bad.
Thanks for commenting and sharing! It’s really interesting to hear it from a different perspective, since it is such a unique experience dependent on your own identity. When it comes to gay men not having these convos, I think it is due to the fact that men- particularly cis men, are not raised or socialized to tie their worth or value to relationships and validation from men. It is the same reason that the term comp het does not typically apply to gay men (cis men, as I can’t speak to the different ways someone who is not cis would experience these things). They do not have to question their value outside of what they can provide to men because they are not victims of the oppressive misogynistic socialization. I hope that can maybe help clarify a little!!! Thanks again for sharing your insight, i really like getting to hear others interpretations!! :)
@TheInterventionalists Yeah, I think a lot of gay transmascs have a pretty complicated relationship with the whole thing, me included. When you're kinda socialized to tie your worth to a relationship, and to be feminine for men, but then you realize that you're not a woman, and you also find out that gay men actually have like the opposite going on where masc men are usually much more valued than fem men, it just...becomes a whole mess I think.
@@TheInterventionalists Edit: I actually asked around and it seems like mine is a bit of either an experience of being a non-binary transmasc or ot being an experience that also depends a lot on how you were socialized (countries with stronger gender norms) because ot seems like the gay trans men asked did not relate.
Honestly it sounds like your first partners just wanted... A man...? If you weren't presenting as masculine, and they pushed for masculinity, wouldn't that just mean that's what they wanted?
A bit long winded, but I think I understand what you’re getting at. It sounds like you’ve had some bad experiences, I’m sorry for that. I’m a masculine person myself, but I was born a girl. I’ve pretty much just dated women in the past. I use They/them and have done for a while, but I do present very masculine. It has been odd though. I think my experience highlights a similar issue, but from the opposite standpoint. I dated a girl for a while, and despite her knowing that I am gender-nonconforming, she would constantly misgender me. At first I didn’t mind, because growing up being constantly misgendered the other way, it was kind of validating. But it just kept on. And she would treat me like her boy. She’d go on girls nights and things and say she’d be back later and I could go to the pub or whatever. I’d always hang out with her friends boyfriends and things when we were out in groups. And if I was sad or something a lot of the time she’d think it was gender dysphoria and say things like ‘- you pass! I never even thought you weren’t a boy!’. And like she’d introduce me as her boyfriend despite us being in a queer relationship. I felt kind of overlooked. Like, I don’t expect anything special just because I’m nonbinary, but just… don’t treat me like a man? There were times in public, especially at night and things when I was grateful that we passed as straight. But inherently we weren’t, but it’s like she didn’t want to acknowledge that. In her mind I was just her soft t-boy. Anyway I hope one day I can find solace in a loving relationship where we’re free of heteronormative expectations, just based on appearance or assumption. Good luck to you x
I think, in that way, we are going through a similar experience. We might want to attract women but we don't want to do that in a way that involves performing masculinity. I'm still navigating this myself. My second wife left me because she said she wasn't a lesbian. That just makes me think she was never really attracted to me, to my personality, my humour.
I tnink this is so interesting. I have never understood why lesbians like masc women because I think that if you wanted masc then you should just date a man. And I think the whole point of liking a woman is because of their feminine traits. But hearing you explain that lesbians want to act in a way to attract women makes a lot of sense since that masc/fem dynamic is what we are used to seeing around us and in media. I have never been with a woman before, even though I am attracted to women, but I also imagine it must be difficult to have 2 submissive personalities together or 2 dominant ones together. Someone is always going to be a little more dominant or more submissive. And then I wonder if acting masc is a way to make the other woman feel safe and protected since that is usually the role men are supposed to provide. Super interesting video.
It's complicated. I look very feminine but act more masculine. It's just my personality. Masc appearance turns me off instantly. I'm starting to like this lesbian woman I'm going out with (I'm bi). She's just really practical but not masculine. Maybe neutral. I like her boldness, somehow we don't clash. She's 13 yrs older than me, maybe this is what I needed all along.
Masculine lesbians are masculine because that is their nature. Most masc women are not performing a role to impress women-they are just being themselves. You are entitled to your own preferences. But the idea that if a woman desires a masc woman, she might as well be with a man--is inherently misogynistic and homophobic. Masc women are still women. Being with a masc woman is very different from being with a man. Gender stereotypes, roles, and clothing do not define womanhood.
Masc women are still women. You can be attracted to men, women, masculinity, femininity, and any other combination of genders and gender expressions. Having masculine energy is not the same as being a man. I'd say that in most hetero couples, the woman is more masculine -- she's the one taking charge, getting stuff done and most of the men aren't even feminine, they're just useless blobs. The tradwives influencers are particularly masculine. You need to work on deconstructing gender. Manhood, womanhood, masculinity, femininity, and all that. You are probably young. Once you actually start dating in gay relationships, you recognize that "Who is the man in the relationship?" is a ridiculous question. Even a butch-femme relationships are a subversion of heteronormative gender roles.
@@asongfromunderthefloorboards Thanks for this comment. I'm an older lesbian and kind of freaked at how younger women I know are so obsessed with rigid gender roles and perceptions. And binaries (masc/femme, dom/sub, etc) -- despite criticizing binaries! For a generation that prizes breaking binaries and boundaries, why are so many putting themselves and others into boxes all the time?
Shortly after coming out as a woman I started dating a straight man, for the first time in my life. I'm growing into my femininity but I still wear jeans and I dont always wear makeup, and he would give me a hard time about it. I'm grateful to the feminists I had already been exposed to, becuase in that moment I could stand up for myself and say "I do this for me, you can appreciate it or not".
Thanks for sharing your experience! ❤
This is a pretty old idea, from at least the 1970s and the "political lesbianism" of radical feminists at the time. Of course, many of them argued that lesbianism was not just a radical identity but a *lifestyle choice* that radicals should adopt even if they aren't, you know. Gay. So, that was a bit of a weird moment in the history of the queer community.
But yeah, there is definitely something unique about being a lesbian from that standpoint. Finding desire , or safety, or authenticity outside of those expectations is fucking hard.
Yes, they argued it could also be a political choice, which is not that absurd in a sense. You can read Monique Wittig of course
Your channel showed up in my recommended. Happy I gave it a watch. Loved the video ! Seeing people explore their gender and what it means to them is one of the most introspective things I feel like someone can do. Finding your identity and expression as well is such a different journey for each person. I’m a trans woman and a lesbian . So my journey was a bit different in that I was always was attracted to women, but didn’t feel like myself in the relationships until I took the time to learn how to be more of myself. Discovering my self expression and my own journey with womanhood has been rly special for me.
I also am rly happy my partner has been with me in this journey. She and I have been married almost 10 years and I’ve been out now about 4 . She is bisexual. So def a dif experience. Again thanks for sharing yours !
Thank you so much for watching!!! and sharing your perspective on it, it’s interesting to hear the different experiences within the lesbian/queer world 💜
When I was 24 and started to date women...I felt pushed into dating mascs because of my feminine look. Soon enough I found out the masc/fem preference can be like a subtype of the lesbian/saphic sexual orientation. I really do not like masc looking lesbians, as in not attracted. The stereotypes really harmed me back in the day. Now, I date who I prefer. I seriously clash with mascs since my personality is masculine and I tend to be dominant in the bedroom lol.
you bring up some interesting points. as a genderqueer person I enjoy hearing people talk about their experience with gender, and I definitely agree it can be hard to figure out what is authentic to yourself when you have always been shown (and pushed) such a specific narrative
those sound like rough situations to be in (randomly telling someone to go on T because you would like them to have a deeper voice is wild). thanks for sharing your thoughts
Thank you, and thank you for taking the time to watch! I think it is definitely a life long unlearning process when it comes to things like this. Thank you for sharing your thoughts :)
as a Gay Man, i feel what You're saying on a deep level.
Is it just me or are those discussions kind of lacking in the gay community? I never really see gay men dissect like social stuff about being gay vs hetero.
If anything, in my opinion, being a lesbian made me even more feminine because I’m more comfortable expressing myself without appealing to the male gaze. I started dressing how I want to vs dressing to get a man to approach me, and my confidence skyrocketed!
Love this 💜💜💜
Men will assume you do it for them, anyway, because they're socialised to be narcissists.
Interesting food for thought! Thanks for sharing. Gender identity is interesting cause there are various factors and societal norms in our head playing a role in it along with how we feel inside. I imagine that was upsetting and possibly confusing having a partner push you towards more masc than you authentically were and a partner push you towards more fem than you authentically were. Ultimately that hopefully led you back to more deeply knowing and loving your authentic gender identity. In both cases it seems they were not fully accepting and loving the authentic you and instead of supporting you in being yourself they were trying to control your identity to please their preferences. Which yep was maybe a micro version of the macro of how society can be perhaps (if I used those words right haha not sure). Or just an example of someone trying to mold or criticize a partner into being who they want instead of finding a partner compatible with one's preferences. Also one way we learn our preferences is during dating and experimenting - so maybe while dating you those people gradually learned tbeir preferences more. Often dating is very rushed into or with an element of following lust or desperation or impulse or convenience too instead of a slower, more logical "wait, who is deeply compatible first?" Then sex is bonding so then we can get bonded fast to someone not very compatible.
This is such an interesting perspective and insight, I loved reading this. Also it’s sooooo true about the sort of immediate bonding, I’ve actually made a video on that awhile back because it truly is such a huge thing here. Thank you for sharing 💜
@@TheInterventionalists Cool, thanks! Will check out more of your content!
It's so interesting to hear everyone's story and experiences. I'm an asexual woman, interested in men. Since I was a child I always felt too masculine. Men in the drag community have actually empowered me towards self-expression and feeling more feminine. Forever grateful for that companionship because I've never been more happy getting to know myself through the drag community.
I love that 💜💜💜💜💜
I’m sorry that you’ve been targeted by such manipulative people. I haven’t experienced this to the same extent that you have, but there are indeed a lot of women who struggle with their identities who will pressure you to change to make them feel better about themselves.
I once had a femme partner who wanted me to be more feminine when she wanted to dominate me and more masculine when she wanted to be dominated and didn’t care that I was a real person who couldn’t magically change my presentation and personality for her on a dime, nor that this was a very weird heteronormative attitude to have. She also made sly efforts to make me to gain weight, I found out, because she was jealous that I was more attractive than she was, and only started pressuring me to be more feminine after I gained a lot from antidepressants and she no longer saw me as competition (it scares me how fucked up that sounds written out). At the same time, she pressured me to take on a more masculine role in the relationship and shamed me for showing any kind of weakness… It eventually became clear that she was secretly craving having a male partner (which she admitted to) and was essentially taking that out on me the entire time. She was insecure around me, for one thing, and deep down she was fundamentally unsatisfied with the fact I was a woman and not a man.
Makes a lot of sense. thank you, that was thoughtful and thought-provoking. and i think you're on the right path of self-acceptance and expression!
Thank you!! and thank you for taking the time to watch :)
Just as a reminder, aroace women aren't out to attract men either. Don't think you were being malicious in saying that lesbians are the only sexuality in that, but still wanted to point it out.
Coming from a transmasc perspective (though I dislike that term for myself...I'm non-binary), I feel biased towards seeing those things in what you said, like, not about you but maybe concerning your former partner or their preferences. I heard that there is a huge overlap on stone butches and transmasc people.
For me, I am actually into men. But I have such weird gender and sexuality stuff going on it's hard to understand and group myself. I find it interesting that I only hear women talk about these things. You don't hear gay men actually trying to dissect those things, somehow. I'm trying to figure out why that is, why the narratives in those communities seem so different.
So, thank you for opening the discussion. I feel like I still need to understand some things to come to conclusions.
I'm also sorry for what happened to you in those relationships. Though it seems like it helped you gain a perspective of what you want and who you are, for someone who wasn't as secure in themselves as you it could have been dangerous and quite bad.
Thanks for commenting and sharing! It’s really interesting to hear it from a different perspective, since it is such a unique experience dependent on your own identity.
When it comes to gay men not having these convos, I think it is due to the fact that men- particularly cis men, are not raised or socialized to tie their worth or value to relationships and validation from men. It is the same reason that the term comp het does not typically apply to gay men (cis men, as I can’t speak to the different ways someone who is not cis would experience these things). They do not have to question their value outside of what they can provide to men because they are not victims of the oppressive misogynistic socialization. I hope that can maybe help clarify a little!!!
Thanks again for sharing your insight, i really like getting to hear others interpretations!! :)
@TheInterventionalists Yeah, I think a lot of gay transmascs have a pretty complicated relationship with the whole thing, me included. When you're kinda socialized to tie your worth to a relationship, and to be feminine for men, but then you realize that you're not a woman, and you also find out that gay men actually have like the opposite going on where masc men are usually much more valued than fem men, it just...becomes a whole mess I think.
@@TheInterventionalists Edit: I actually asked around and it seems like mine is a bit of either an experience of being a non-binary transmasc or ot being an experience that also depends a lot on how you were socialized (countries with stronger gender norms) because ot seems like the gay trans men asked did not relate.
Honestly it sounds like your first partners just wanted... A man...? If you weren't presenting as masculine, and they pushed for masculinity, wouldn't that just mean that's what they wanted?
My thoughts exactly
A bit long winded, but I think I understand what you’re getting at.
It sounds like you’ve had some bad experiences, I’m sorry for that.
I’m a masculine person myself, but I was born a girl. I’ve pretty much just dated women in the past. I use They/them and have done for a while, but I do present very masculine. It has been odd though.
I think my experience highlights a similar issue, but from the opposite standpoint. I dated a girl for a while, and despite her knowing that I am gender-nonconforming, she would constantly misgender me. At first I didn’t mind, because growing up being constantly misgendered the other way, it was kind of validating. But it just kept on. And she would treat me like her boy. She’d go on girls nights and things and say she’d be back later and I could go to the pub or whatever. I’d always hang out with her friends boyfriends and things when we were out in groups.
And if I was sad or something a lot of the time she’d think it was gender dysphoria and say things like ‘- you pass! I never even thought you weren’t a boy!’. And like she’d introduce me as her boyfriend despite us being in a queer relationship. I felt kind of overlooked. Like, I don’t expect anything special just because I’m nonbinary, but just… don’t treat me like a man?
There were times in public, especially at night and things when I was grateful that we passed as straight. But inherently we weren’t, but it’s like she didn’t want to acknowledge that. In her mind I was just her soft t-boy.
Anyway I hope one day I can find solace in a loving relationship where we’re free of heteronormative expectations, just based on appearance or assumption.
Good luck to you x
I'm amab and always knew masculinity wasn't for me, but I worried I wouldn't be able to attract women.
I think, in that way, we are going through a similar experience. We might want to attract women but we don't want to do that in a way that involves performing masculinity. I'm still navigating this myself. My second wife left me because she said she wasn't a lesbian. That just makes me think she was never really attracted to me, to my personality, my humour.
I like you are this voice ❤
Thank you 💜
Hello girl ❤❤❤❤❤❤nice to mic you❤❤❤❤
Thank you 🙏❤
I tnink this is so interesting. I have never understood why lesbians like masc women because I think that if you wanted masc then you should just date a man. And I think the whole point of liking a woman is because of their feminine traits. But hearing you explain that lesbians want to act in a way to attract women makes a lot of sense since that masc/fem dynamic is what we are used to seeing around us and in media. I have never been with a woman before, even though I am attracted to women, but I also imagine it must be difficult to have 2 submissive personalities together or 2 dominant ones together. Someone is always going to be a little more dominant or more submissive. And then I wonder if acting masc is a way to make the other woman feel safe and protected since that is usually the role men are supposed to provide. Super interesting video.
Thank you for taking the time to watch and share your thoughts!! it is really interesting to hear. Thank you!!
It's complicated. I look very feminine but act more masculine. It's just my personality. Masc appearance turns me off instantly. I'm starting to like this lesbian woman I'm going out with (I'm bi). She's just really practical but not masculine. Maybe neutral. I like her boldness, somehow we don't clash. She's 13 yrs older than me, maybe this is what I needed all along.
Masculine lesbians are masculine because that is their nature. Most masc women are not performing a role to impress women-they are just being themselves. You are entitled to your own preferences. But the idea that if a woman desires a masc woman, she might as well be with a man--is inherently misogynistic and homophobic.
Masc women are still women. Being with a masc woman is very different from being with a man. Gender stereotypes, roles, and clothing do not define womanhood.
Masc women are still women. You can be attracted to men, women, masculinity, femininity, and any other combination of genders and gender expressions. Having masculine energy is not the same as being a man. I'd say that in most hetero couples, the woman is more masculine -- she's the one taking charge, getting stuff done and most of the men aren't even feminine, they're just useless blobs. The tradwives influencers are particularly masculine.
You need to work on deconstructing gender. Manhood, womanhood, masculinity, femininity, and all that. You are probably young. Once you actually start dating in gay relationships, you recognize that "Who is the man in the relationship?" is a ridiculous question. Even a butch-femme relationships are a subversion of heteronormative gender roles.
@@asongfromunderthefloorboards Thanks for this comment. I'm an older lesbian and kind of freaked at how younger women I know are so obsessed with rigid gender roles and perceptions. And binaries (masc/femme, dom/sub, etc) -- despite criticizing binaries! For a generation that prizes breaking binaries and boundaries, why are so many putting themselves and others into boxes all the time?