The Problem with Taunt ft. Czech Blahaj | Darkest Dungeon 2
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- Опубліковано 15 жов 2024
- It's time for your daily dose of truth about game design. You're free to disagree, but I've already thought of every counter argument in the 69,420 different timelines and won all the debates.
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![[DEFINITIVE] ENEMY TIER LIST - PART 1 | Darkest Dungeon 2](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/UL2tkhy--FY/mqdefault.jpg)
Can you do an hour long discussion about Hellion's biceps next please
Finally some good content
I love that I see you in every video talking about hellion 🤣 the commitment to her is legendary
The only possible fix would be the heroes getting trashtalking barks whenever they have taunt
That’s a really good idea actually. Or stress
"I will give you one for free"
"I know you are deaf, but also blind?"
"Not enough, neither in numbers or effort! More!"
"Still here! Just take a swing!"
Why taunt when you could run the Game of Shadows comp of Leper (or any other good tanker) Runaway, Grave robber, and Intrepide Duelist and have only 1 hero get targetted anyway?
Because that docker can still hit make way :P
Hey shuffle, really glad youre passionate about this topic and thanks for stirring up conversation on it. Im of the opinion that i disagree with a lot of what you said and think a few changes to heros taunt skills and not how taunt works would fix any problem there and the rest of pain points I heard, I dont really agree with! I really do not like the proposed example at the end as well as that would be less intuitive (harder to see who taunted what at a glance) and due to debuff res having a taunt centered move get res would feel real bad especially with cool downs. I think changing it drastically like that is a bad idea and hope for skills to be balanced individually and the taunt token to stay the same. Thanks for reading and take care!
I appreciate the thought out response. Totally fine to disagree, it's always fun to think about stuff in depth too :)
The whole DD2 combat is pretty much just 'do more damage' and the most safe play is killing quickly and you are calling taunt an issue? In most fights enemies cleave and hit specific ranks and 4 attack for 2x aggro - its balanced, aggro alone is not a hard 'disable' like a stun, taunt is only crucial vs some bosses. Taunt skills are good specifically cause of other effects, not aggro and it would be even a waste to have just a plain 'taunt' skill, no one even plays Carcass despite her double weaken taunt with free blocks and Vanguard is way more popular than Bulwark too. Damage>everything else, even on harder flames like the no-healing one. Oh and you have 2 free taunt trinkets which arent even considered good and get tossed away.
24:17 Shuff got Front Mortar-ed irl
I really like the idea of "Taunting" a specific enemy, as it rewards game knowledge in a good way. You Taunt the trouble targets that you know your tank can take hits from, so you have to know which enemies to actually be worth Taunting.
If they still want to keep "Group-Wide" Taunts like it is in the game now, maybe instead of forcing enemies to hit the Taunt, it makes it so enemies have a psuedo-Blind token when attacking anybody who isn't Taunted. This could make it so you Taunt on your tank, and it "forces" the enemies (in a way) to clear that Taunt in order to more effectively attack your squishy targets in the back. This works a bit more how D&D handles taunt, where they make it so you have Disadvantage on targets other than the one Taunting.
Could you do an hour long discussion next about why pistol shot is the best damaging move in the game
I like the single target taunt idea but Taunt tokens should probably remain as they are. I would like to see them add single target taunting in a new Provoked token (or some better name), though. It could replace taunts in the problematic moves (Retribution, More More), and since it's weaker it could be put into enemy toolkits with less worry and more counterplay. Having both tokens available would give the devs more tools to balance with.
dd2 is totally a perfectly balanced game with no unfair moves or mechanics and lots of counterplay
Big if true
No unfair moves? Don't let bro find our about bellow, retribution (even worse if pre nerf dear god), more, more!
1 isn't wasn't balanced with its stun meta ether, what makes these games fun is exploring viable effective teams that are fun regardless of they're the most optimal
I have an immortal Flagellant, he has had 5 memories and bloodthirsty locked in for god knows how long. He has been alive for close to a year now. No matter what i do, he cannot die.
i'm not sure i understood how sickening silence would make a stupidly powerful man-at-arms, is it just so you don't contract other diseases that would be more negative than the ones you mentioned?
Between his taunt, block, and riposte while throwing 6x3 blight on whoever hit him he is crazy good with it. You can still get other diseases but if you get a mild one it's insane.
@@ShuffleFM oh i understand now, i was looking at a wiki that wasn't properly updated, and there it says its just a 25% resistance to disease buff if you have dark impulse equipped
hope there is a decently sized update for the confessions campaign before kingdoms dlc other than releasing mod support (they do need to focus it though since it will enhance replayability and the community seems to be getting impatient)
vestal and leper (at least his chop pls) need buffs, faster runs (if they can reduce the average/typical run further by 15-20mins that would be so nice), improve the relationship system further, and something to do with excess candles (maybe a new mechanic like the one you use candles to hire bh in the inn or a new location in altar of hope)
on stuns maybe if they release a new hero like Houndmaster that has limited use Blackjack with cooldown, that would up the stun meta a bit without making it busted like in DD1 or maybe Leper with reworked Bash (a stun on his kit would also alleviate a little bit of his problems of being so slow and takes too long to build up but im not an expert on balance or meta so this maybe busted)
great video, much love
p.s.: i recently realized this account is not sub to this channel lmao despite this is the one that discovered it 4 years ago, mb :P
To my knowledge there is a new region for confessions around the time kingdoms drops
Would love to see gameplay over these talks, even if it isnt examples of the topics at hand
Noted!
Can you talk about a "-10% bleed res debuff" for 6 hours straight next
I could, but you wouldn't watch it so there's no point
@@ShuffleFM Swear on nerf crush i would
I would too 😳
I really hope they do updates on frontliners. MAA with crush hitting up to rank 3 and self heal just makes everyone else a handicap.
I mean I understand what there coming from but I feel like tanks kinda need a way to protect there team with out taunt how is hellion or leaper or reynauld gonna protect anyone from dmg also I just remember flag what would even replace more more with
Not saying to get rid of all taunt, just saying it's too high value. If you rework it a bit that leaves more room for guard and blind for example. Picking 1 target to redirect is already really powerful.
@@ShuffleFM I don't have quite as many hours as you guys do, but I can't imagine Blind will be able to compete for space unless it could be more consistent somehow. I know it's just a "certified Darkest Dungeon" moment, but getting hit (and crit) through multiple stacks of blind in a row feels so bad, especially because the tokens just go away anyway.
i feel like the main fix for taunt could be a feature similar to lock on from xenoblade chronicles 2 and 3, for those unfamiliar what lock on does is its an enemy debuff that forces enemies to attack the person who inflicted the debuff (typically only on tanks and was added because of how aggro works in that game it has hard for certain tank classes to keep aggro because they don't do enough damage). maybe make certain skills like intimidate, toe to toe and retribution inflict lock on while others like withstand and bulwark give taunt. this probably wouldn't "fix" the issue but it would atleast help with the problem and nerf some of the problematic taunt skills the best way would be to make every taunt lock on but then you would need to pick an enemy for skills like more more which i feel like would confuse new players and make them think that they are buffing the enemy
Adding onto Flagellant being absurdly hard to kill, my successful Act 5 run was finished out with Scourge Flagellant being solo, alternating More More and Lash's Gift to spam Toxic and healing.
I think the taunt idea at the end can be its own token entirely, provoked token. Enrage an enemy, on turn automatically attack target that provoked them with a chance to miss, if applied to a party member force enraged party member on turn to automatically attack who provoked them with a chance to miss.
Basically like how Like a dragon Infinite Wealth does it but with an added chance to miss. Make it 50%.
It would be worse than current taunt so no one would use it :P
I have a really hard time justifying running taunt on Manatarms, and if I run Protector it's for extremely specific fights eg. librarian to keep blind off my main dps.
He has too many great skills.
I dont think I'm actually that good at DD2 compared to DD1, so Taunt seems balanced to me. I could see how it's a bit a braindead mechanic without many downsides though. I have definitely fucked myself over by putting a Bugle trinket on a More More Flag and still died, so I feel like Taunt abuse has limits. I guess they just need to complicate the mechanic to not make it such an obvious exit from tough situations
Yeah the bugle is dangerous lol. On demand taunt is really strong. Forcing 1 person to get blasted every single turn gets bad fast.
Dropping my prewatch thoughts and then I'll update on any changes etc. Also I'm only so-so at best at the game so coming at it from that frame of reference
Main thing I notice with taunt vs without on my runs is how much more frequently I'm fighting for my life in non taunt setups. I don't know if it's that I haven't figured out how the other tools work well, or if taunt is needed to make it work, but from my POV I'd want to see other tools stronger as alternative options before losing out on taunt. Blind feels very unreliable, weaken is okay (admittedly haven't used it a ton), guard is pretty okay, dodge feels mostly just worse than block(?). I guess if anything, I could see something like shifting the taunt to be more akin to guard, with the taunt focusing a particular target (if you taunt x enemy and x enemy attacks, they must attack taunter if possible).
Probably a massive skill issue on my end, but I feel like the only char where taunt feels insane is flag, because I'm so good at having my MAA die lol. So then, my other thought is "is taunt fundamentally the problem, or is flag broken (or both)?" Either way though, my general stance prewatch is that I wish support moves were stronger, because in some ways from my pov it feels like a support move needs to be somewhat like taunt to justify it over *deal damage button*
during/post watch thoughts (again am not great at game)
Must be a skill issue but when the enemies being taunted is referred to as a stun in essence, it feels like there are still many enemies who can just hit other ranks. Maybe I'm just overestimating how many of them actually can do that. While it can "stun" enemies, other abilities intend to do the same thing (redirection via guard, dodging via... dodge, etc.). So I guess I don't track with the analogy, but I think I understand the general sentiment at least.
I refuse to believe that anyone besides Shuffle actually calls it "Crimson Upside." Not because it's not an upside, but because that's clunky as hell and doesn't roll off the tongue at all.
Why not call it the Crimson Blessing? The Crimson Boon? The Crimson Carry? The Crimson Win-Some? Crimson Cool, idk, anything but "Upside." Makes me want to upchuck.
I believe thick originally coined the term over 3 years ago. Since then it's been used occasionally in both mine and red hooks discord
FM, are we gonna get a next episode om every enemy analyzed? Those two videos are some of my favorites
I'm terrible at scheduling things. I'll hit up Sammy soon
@@ShuffleFM has it been “a few weeks or so” yet?
What do you think about the general design of DD2 bosses? I feel like DD1 bosses where much more interesting in how you could approach them and what 'strategies' the boss used against you.
Shuffle actually made a video talking about DD2 bosses, which you can view here: m.ua-cam.com/video/y9g7_9bHmWU/v-deo.html
-R4nger
23:16 also ravenous reach phase 1 stuns on combo 🤓
I wonder if you go through the hero skills with the proposed changes would you equip taunt much?
I think taunt is largely fine. If anything rather than fixing taunt why not offer skills to certain enemies to mitigate its effectiveness?
I dont think More More is OP because the dmg taken is usually higher than the amount he heals. I would say the result is the same dmg taken by a blocked+ hit
That isn't always the case though. Average enemy damage is not 12, so him healing ~25hp every other turn is pretty crazy. Plus you redirect enemies to him while doing it.
Love these discussions, I’ve never thought twice about taunt but this has been very thought provoking. keep it up king 👑😄
I Think flagellant and especially more more are made for players who want to finish the game and are sick of losing to a specific act.
I think it’s intentional to have an overpowered character like this in the game and I can’t think of another way why flag still exists in this way.
New Upload
how about adding a taunt subclass instead of reworking? the one suggested at the end also from Lux could be a Provoke / Challenge token which does exactly that to pick a target. But I never got answered so , if its re-worked is it going to be the same for the enemy when its done to your team? And could then this new token /rework be dodged or ignored ... BY BLIND!??!! pum pum pummmmm!?
Too much going on to have all 3 because current taunt is still better. Of course the enemy would do it to your team. As for having it missed or resisted, that's the point because right now it's a blue token you use on yourself. Those are normally hitting the enemy, but taunt works against the rest of the game's system.
Taunt is one of the few moves with zero rng attached to it. I’d hate to see it reworked into a bizzaro way.
It feels like enemies ignore taunt at least 33% of the time anyway. Perhaps it would be too good if it worked 100%, but it doesn't, at least not for me! Maybe give enemies some amount of Taunt Resist if you think it's too easy.
you are pro players at the game. i dont think taunt breaks the game, but making this game even harder can push even more players away from the game. Not everybody have your skill and time to become an expert. So i think they should maintain taunt as is.
I promise this change won't make anything significantly harder. In a lot of instances it will be better, like taunting a big enemy for a couple turns.
I feel taunt is fine in dd2, i feel dd1 tanks with the mark micanic felt realy bad, you pop ur tanks tankyness and based on rng the enemy might hit u, and when they do ur marked so some attacks hurt more.
dd2 taunt micanic feels more like a kinda cc, were most taunts with self defence are under cd and deal none if any damage, with only some examples like intimidate being all around good.
But i feel just that existence of feeling the value for tankeing a dedicated tank is very nice.
Most my teams dont run a dedicated tank, so the points were enemys have like very strong attacks u realy wana taunt can be avoided by being more aggressive i personally feel, dd2 has alot of enemys that do crazy stuff, but if u buy items and are prepared you can usually counter like every enemys plan very consistently, with the hickups of enemys doing crits and what not.
Cool video, i feel your points make sense i just feel its not a bad thing to exist, its also important to recognize how hard dd2 is for like a average gamer, alot of dd2 tools are kinda broken on the player side, but the game is still very hard.
I think there's a lot of overlooking of characters' gimmicks and rolls going on here. Tanks and masochists goading attacks.
"Braindead move" is interesting. I'm not sure if it requires any more thought as Duelest Advance + Point Blank. Is that also busted?
But actually, yeah, taught is a good addition, and I stand by it. Flagellant slingshot his HP in DD1, Man-at-Arms tanked, not all moves need to be a machiavellian master plan.
So many things are busted if you find the right trinket in a 3-4 hour run. This feels like a case of surpassing the average player skill base and feeling frustrated because you solved the puzzle. It's thematically and gameplay appropriate. It's on characters that have a use for it. It's good design.
I would prefer Red Hook speed up the modding tools so we can all add more tweaks. Excited to see the Shuffed-Flame!
Would Taunt work better if it had something like a +5% crit chance? That would add some risk to taunting, as well as being able ro use it offensivly.
Anything that adds risk is preferable. 5% crits received is an interesting idea
@@ShuffleFM The numbers probably needs some tuning, or they could stack 😇 but in my experience, any increase in crit chance is a 100% increase for the enemy and 0% for me 🙄
More and more is generally redundant due to sepsis.
They work well together too though
Wait, this isn't an hour long rant on the taunting rules in the NFL?
Legacy sports LMAO
Flagelent is so very broken and more more is the core of that
i am coming back to the game, taunt seems great??
Unrelated but I just had the most bs run ever. Was doing a corpse light run and all the worms were dropping corpses on act 5. And lots of graphical glitches felt like the game was possessed. So damn tedious took forever got to boss got it down to 300. It was my grave robbers turn for the 200 dmg thing. Got the debuff that wouldn’t let me use ranged got attacked twice. Then get moved to front line. Move back so I can actually hit rank 4. Enemy had a dodge token miss. Get killed by the second attack in one turn in first death blow. There goes my back liner can’t do anything. Goes to shit. That felt really really bad.
This was a grand slam as well.
Also my first time ever losing to the boss in all my time playing and I’ve done all the challenge flames.
Funny thing is I would have won if not for the random dodge he got from a positive relationship character getting the free bonus attack that failed to poison and thus gave the dodge token cuz corpse light.
Please do a beginner’s guide there’s a lot of new players from consoles
🔊
more enemy aoe attacks incoming
I've always been of the opinion that Taunt should've been an actual debuff token. The token would work like an inverse Guard, instead of forcing redirects on all attacks at a specific ally, it would redirect all attacks coming from a specific enemy. This would mean that most taunt moves would need to be soft-reworked to target enemies, but that doesn't seem like a big problem. Overall I just think it would be a good change that makes using taunt as a control effect that's more limited and limited and intentional. It wouldn't change too much for boss fights or encounters with only a single threatening enemy, but at least debuff res would keep it's omnipresent mitigation in check.
That's p much what we propose at the end! :)
😢 when kingdoms 🎉🎉🎉
Sometime near the end of the year, that's all we got :(
An idea for a fix: remove the targeting mechanic of the token and instead have the holder of the token receive 25% extra damage.
Tempts the player into targeting the enemy who has the token, and for the hero it adds risk to the skill being used.
Not a bad idea tbh
@@GorillaSuplex that sounds a lot better than the provoked token idea.
This would certainly make you think longer before using a skill that taunts you.
isnt this just a worse vuln
@@shalluxi7184 You have a point with that. I didn't think vuln would be a direct substitute.
I lost so many vestels in darkest dungeon because enemies just ignore the heroes I marked to attack them on low hp in the back.
Taunt aint great but at least it aint random
Hey bro, good video
I still hold true that DD2 is one of the worse designed Rougelites. Red Hook fumbled the bag so hard with this game
Thank you for the comment, the algorithm is pleased
Glad to see you still trying to enjoy this ass game