Orthodox Holy Sites in CK3 - The most historically accurate Holy Sites in the game?
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- Опубліковано 4 жов 2023
- Crusader Kings is a great game not just for its empires, kingdoms and duchies, but also for its depiction of medieval places. Most prominently, Holy Sites in the game give the player bonuses if another ruler of the same religion controls them.
In this video we are looking at Orthodox Christianity in Crusader Kings 3, its Holy Sites, its actual history and why the Orthodox Holy Sites might be especially accurate.
We are very grateful for questions, comments, likes and subscriptions.
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Sources:
Pelikan, Jaroslav (1971). The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine. Vol. 2: The Spirit of Eastern Christendom (600-1700)
Treadgold, Warren (1997). A History of the Byzantine State and Society
Speake - (2012). Mount Athos : Microcosm of the Christian East
#crusaderkings3 #paradoxinteractive #crusaderkings
The filioque adding to the Nicene creed, the pope crowning Charlemagne as Roman Emperor, and the ERE firing of patriarchs are big disputes that preceded 867. While communion wasn’t technically broken yet, the West saw the pope as the ultimate authority, while the East saw him as an upstart. I think these differences justify them being separate faiths in 867.
This is fine for now but once the game receives an earlier start date and/or a Byzantine empire update that should come with some kinda struggle mechanic.
@@aspacelexI don't think we will get an earlier start date
@@hircenedaelen That's right. I'm to understand that Paradox felt that they had to make-up too much history for Charlemagne-era start dates. A struggle to represent the schism would be cool though, especially because it could model them going between being in full communion and being in schism.
@@hircenedaelen 769 was one of the most popular ck2 starts. I wouldn’t be surprised if they added it
Filioque was still a regional aberration in 867 and only became official in Rome in 1014. Despite some disputes they would not have considered each other separate churches. Even after the great schism they really didn’t treat each other as entirely different churches until centuries later
I think the learning bonus Alexandria gives is probably because Alexandria was the home of the Catechetical School of Alexandria. Alexandria was a theological and scholarly powerhouse in early Christianity. It was the home of church fathers like Origen, Cyril, and Athanasius. (Not to mention the "arch heretic" Arius). Alexandria is the source of some of our best manuscripts of the New Testament.
Yeah, I was about to say the same. The ‘Great Library’ is a bit of a tall tale as well. It wasn’t really much greater than most other hellenic libraries in its heyday and it declined well before the birth of Jesus
alexandria has been a centre for learning for Christian theology but even in Jewish and Hellenic history as well.
Well, Origen was also a heretic, but, yeah.
Mt Athos could be a special building with learning and piety bonuses, as well as giving learning when you travel through it
Kiev would’ve been an interesting Holy Site to include for Eastern Orthodoxy during the 1066 start date due to the enormous importance of King Vladimir’s acceptance of the Orthodox Christian faith in 988. His conversion born of a pact with Byzantine Emperor Basil II, who promised his sister's hand in marriage in exchange for military aid and the adoption of Christianity by the Kievan state. The St. Sophia Cathedral (based off Hagia Sofia in Constantinople) and the Kiev-Pechersk Lavra have both stood in the Kievan-Rus capital since the early 11th century and hold great significance to Russian, Ukrainians, and Belarusian faithful (and Orthodoxy as a whole)
Yes, maybe replacing Aleppo or Alexandria
Kiev
Weird way of spelling Kiev.
@@fiddlesticks7245 fixed it
@@grandmasterbroda1429 Hell yeah brother
It would be cool if the pentarchy actually existed since it would let you actually roleplay that hugely important part of Eastern Roman politics. Being able to call euconmenical councils and have intense debates over church doctrine would be really interesting plus it would add some sort of weight to reconquering, though the patriarchs did actually continue to reign even after the Eastern Roman Empire lost many of the seats, plus the Pope was always considered the Patriarch of Rome and had a special status that was generally recognized.
i think there should be a decision to allow you to make additional holy sites (not only for othodoxy).
One idea would be the Orthodox chruches in Novgorod and Moscow, since they predate the games start or end dates.
Other religions could have the same idea with Catholics being able to make new holy sites in the slavic regions such as poland and poznan or muslims gaining Constantinople if it falls during gameplay.
Yeah, not possible for every province but giving a few to most faiths would be awesome.
For asatru making it possible to return the holy site in sjeland that was removed in favor of York, the one in Zeeland from ck2 and cologne if you conquer it as kinda a middle-finger to Christianity would be great fun IMO
Add Raivola (st. Petersburg) as well and suddenly you can make a 4v4 fight between fenno-scandian and mainland asatru (yeah I gave the danish islands to fenno-scandia, that just makes sense in my head)
Im pretty sure there is a mod for that but I dont remember how balanced
If any cities within Russia would be prospective holy sites, probably Kiev and Smolensk would be the best candidates. Moscow was not a very significant city until the very end of Crusader Kings’ timeframe. Novgorod is a city of special importance to the Russians, but its Orthodox Christian significance is limited compared to a city like Kiev. I don’t know about what modern Russians think, but Orthodox Christians in western countries probably think of St. Alexander Nevsky when they hear of Novgorod, but do not think of much else.
the muslims can convet the hagia sophia in game
a video explaining the exclusive techs of each culture would also be nice.
Good idea! I was thinking of doing sth on cultures
Since this game does not have a trade mechanic (yet) I do like that Constantinople gives Cultural Fascination.
It, to me, gives this air of "Ooh I like the things these traders from far-off lands are talking about!"
I absolutely love this series! Would be amazing if you were to do more episodes of it in the future. Especially about those smaller lesser-known heresies, maybe as a group episode, as they tend to have some really interesting histories behind them.
Thank you for the good feedback!
As a Tajik myself, i really wonder of how accurate was represented Persian cultures in general and Zoroastrianism! (Sorry for bad grammar, im only learning 😅) And btw, this winter Paradox will release Persian flavor pack, will you do a video about that? I think the DLC would add something about Iranian Intermezzo period.
Very good English for someone just learning, keep it up
@@cazbackondiscordThank you!
@@Shakhzod_Abdaliare Tajils the modern day Sogdians?
@@Ismael_Malikshahi Not really, of course, our ancestors probably created families with the Sogdians and thereby partly assimilated with them. But if we talk about the Sogdians as the original people of Sogdiana, then there are very few of their direct descendants left on the territory of Tajikistan, around 50 thousand people today, while the population of the country is 10 million. My people descended from the Eastern Persians who began to live on the territory of Mavernnahr since the time of the Achamenids, if not earlier. We coexisted with the Sogdians for thousands of years, and it is not surprising that our cultures eventually mixed. The term - Eastern Persians, is not entirely correct; we simply called ourselves Persians. It’s just that there was a slight difference in languages and cultures between the Persians of the West and the East, so some historians distinguished them.
@@Ismael_Malikshahi Then, in the 6th century, when the Sassanian Empire fell and the Arabs captured the territory of Persia, a huge part of the Western Persians fled to the east and found refuge there. Thus, the Western Persians and the Eastern Persians were united to some extent. The term Tajik itself comes from the Arabs. They called the Persian people who lived in Transoxiana and converted to Islam Tajiks. But they simply continued to call those Persians who remained on Iranian territory, well, Persians. And a few centuries later, when the Turks conquered Central Asia, they, in the manner of the Arabs, continued to call our people Tajiks. Hence the name of my people.
Could you also do Norse
As a Norweigian I have always been intersted in the Norse religon and you seemto do a great job at expleaning things
Love your videos keep up the great work:)
Thank you :)
As a Swede I think I can help.
The holy sites for the Asatru religion is less holy sites and more important Viking/Norse settlement.
Nidaros would be the capital of Norway for a time.
Uppsala was the capital of early Sweden (Later moved a bit south to Stockholm).
Jorvik (York) was a huge Viking settlement in England and one of the biggest concentrations of Vikings in the Brittish Islands outside of Dublin.
And lastly Kön... Köning... Kiev, was a huge trade city made by Vikings. It does not have any religious significant but it was an important node in the Norse trade network.
The *one* holy site I am personally not 100% on is the one in modern day Germany. My guess is that it has something to do with the big tree Charlamagne burned down but I could be wrong.
@@CommissarMitch That is probably correct but what I dont understand about the Norway kingdom title is that Prandenheimar is the de jure capital
Istead of something more historically important like Bergen/Björgon or Oslo/Akerhus/kristiania
@Noobmaster-of3xk that is true and I did some googling.
According to Wikipedia, Trondheim/Niðaróss was the capital for quite a bit during the Medieval period.
Doing some quick maths between 997 and 1217, the first and the last year it was a capital (220 years) it was the capital for 167 years.
220 - 167 = 53 years of that entire time the capital was not that one place.
Or to put it in other terms:
During the time the game takes place, the 900s to 1300s, the capital was Trondheim/Niðaróss for quite a chonky bit of time.
To compare:
Oslo became the capital in 1314, and in 1397 the Kalmar Union became a thing and just erased Norwegian autonomy. Plus that is a bit outside the time scale of the game.
Bergen was the capital for about a century, but that was during the 1200s which again was after the CK3 start times.
The only capital on the list that might have superceded it would be Avaldsnes in Karmøy, which I just learned existed.
TL DR
The de joure capital makes sense for the time the game takes place in. Having any other known capital would be ahistorical.
@@CommissarMitch Oh ok thanks for the info now i understand why thanks :)
Kiev, Ohrid, Rila (Bulgaria) and Kosovo would work well for Orthodoxy also.
Yeah, but wouldnt kosovo be metohija or prizeren?
@Rabid_Nationalist I think the entire province counts as a holy site? I haven't played too much vanilla CK3, so I wouldn't know. But since there's Prizren, Peć, Dečani and many other candidates if we're looking at a barony level
@@whiteoctober4582 fair enough, yeah.
How Orthodoxy worked in CK2 was really interesting, I hope they can eventually bring that pentarchy/realm patriarch system to CK3 in a future update
I never played it and wonder how you can install an orthodox patriarchate in rome in ck3. What waa this option in ck2?
@@Damienoos pretty much. As you reconquered the traditional 5 important Orthodox cities the bishop there would then essentially be head of faith for the for that region. So you could get an Orthodox patriarch in Antioch, Rome, Jerusalem, Alexandria, and the one in Constantinople
@@cg1231 oh that's perfect, i don't understand what in there mind happend that they choose to remove this feature. Because i guess it's not in ck3?
8:08
Well the Alexandria one also exists, but it's the Coptic religious head
Ah really?! We must have missed that!
@@historyinbits im almost certain it is
I did a Google and the official name of the Coptic church is:
"Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria"
It is also called the Egyptian Ortodox Church nowadays.
Also to my knowledge yes, Alecandria is a Coptic patriarch but it was established in the 1800s.
I’m not sure if this is a More Bookmarks Plus exclusive or it was integrated by another mod but the various rites signifies more unified churches does exist in CK3 mods. It’s quite extensive though I don’t know how it compares to the CK2 mod.
I'm very happy you mentioned Georgia and Jvari Monastery, but a slight nitpick - It's not pronounced yvari, it's spoken as spelled. So Juh-vari.
Thanks again.
Ah thank you for the correction! I’m a Brit based in Finland so I’m used to pronouncing “j” sounds in words I don’t recognise as a “y” sound!
@@historyinbits No problem at all, I'm just happy that Georgia got mentioned. We're a very obscure country.
Now that you can freely travel the world it would be cool if these smaller holy sites were added as significant stops, maybe they could grant more xp like passing through a university and draw one event from the pool of pilgrimage events.
The bonus from alexandria probably also alludes to the Catechetical School of Alexandria, there's even another tenet, alexandrian catechism that you can get when forming a new christian faith (i think it is also part of the other christian faiths)
According to Wiki, it was a school of christian theologians. That alone (i think) is enough reason for the HS to grant learning bonus, and for the tenet to grant learning lifestyle xp bonus
I probably should read more in depth about it, but it is 1 in the morning... maybe another day...
Coptic gets Alexandrian Catechism by default
Great Video i also like watching your videos and learning from them!
Thank you :)
The Great Damascus Mosque-Cathedral! It should work like the one in Cordoba 😢 it was built in 64 CE for the Jupiter's imperial cult. It was the transitioned to be the seat of the second ranking bishop in Antiochian Patriarchate, we also kept the head of Saint John the Baptist, and John Paul II (the pope) visited it in 2001! Just to see the relic.
Aaaand, this is also the tomb of Ali! One of the most important figure in Islam, especially Shia branch. Muslims believed that heaven and earth only cried for 2 people, Yahya (John) and Ali. They also believed that this place is where Isa would come to earth.
So yeah, make this place a holy site or atleast male it useable for christians, muslims, and greko-roman cult (I forgot the name in game)
Superb video as always
Thank you!
Great video guys, love the funny cuts 😂
Thank you, glad you liked it!
Upon reading medieval and later sources it seems to me that Mt. Athos and Mt. Sinai eclipse the importance of the Pentarchy for Orthodox believers in the middle ages, with the possible exception of Jerusalem and maybe Constantinople. These are the places that high-profile Orthodox pilgrims went to in the high medieval era. Both had an international monastic community, with monasteries belonging to different nationalities. These monasteries account for not only a significant percentage of all religious and secular literature produced in the period as well as the preservation of copies of works since lost in their country of origin. Without the contact they facilitated it would be difficult to imagine the doctrinal and practical uniformity of Orthodox communities today in spite of separate hierarchies and linguistic differences.
I hope we see a religion based expansion that puts more prominence on archbishops and the power struggles they would have like the ones of England
That‘d be cool!
From a gameplay viewpoint, the holy sites make sense. Orthodox starts with 2 of its 5 holy sites in its control. 1 is under Catholic control; 2 under Islam. Gives Orthodox rulers objectives to conquer.
Really interesting video, it's always a pleasure to learn more with your content ! May I suggest a topic on Armenian, Ethiopian and Coptic churches in CK3 ? Thank you I can't wait to see more of it !
Good idea!
hope you touch the landmarks too, im a sucker for landmarks too, in both warhammer 3 and crusader kings, they are like pokemons to me, gotta catch 'em all
Can you do one on nestorian sites? I was king of wallachia-moldova, and I had converted to nestorian from a mental break. I went on a pilgrimage to a holy site, found a woman, slept with her, had a child, and then married her when my wife died
Sounds like a fascinating playthrough!
Hahahahahah 2:41 photo of polish politician chilling with arabs caught me so off guard.
We have elections in Poland in a week.
Oh even the photo is from Poland look at the paintings
:D all the best for your elections!
I’ve been playing in India and there’s a lot of different religions and holy sites there you could definitely make an interesting video on
Kiev for Lavra, Damascus for Saidnaya (built in 500's by Saint Justinian himself) that run by nuns! So yeah, if people think of us as "Patriachy this, patriarchy that" this is just one of the proofs that we're not and everyone is equal in the face of God.
Monastery of Saint Anthony in Eastern Desert (built in 300's). Monastery of Saint Mary in Sinai, like every Orthodox must have heard stories once in their lifetime, shes that big.
A good contender for an orthodox holy sight is Ohrid. Its nicknames are litteraly Europen/Balkan/Macedonian Jerusalem and at one pont in time it was described as having 365 churches, one for each day of the year.
Although not Orthodox, there is a patriarch in Antioch in both start dates, The “Patriarch of The East”, the head of faith for Nestorianism.
Can you talk about The Fallen Eagle mod's accuracy?
We‘ll finally have to look into that!
@@historyinbits You only do ancient/medieval history, or modern history too?
@@jonathaslopes8038 we have been thinking about doing more modern history. We have one video on UK, Austria and Turkey in Victoria 3
Maybe support the intro (if you do one like that again) with more graphics for easier understanding? had to watch it like 3 times, but great video!
Thank you for the feedback! What exactly would you suggest?
@@historyinbitsmaybe showing a screenshot of the Pentachy tenant or a earlier us of the map that showed where the Pentachies are located? I’m sorry I don’t really know video editing and I’m just comparing it to shorts and other youtube intros that are almost a overstimulated of Pictures and things to get you hooked
What CK3 lacks in all cases is depth and complexity. The solution here is simple: include all holy sites, but have a tiered system wherein tier 1 holy sites are the most important and beneficial and tier 3 the least. It would also be cool to, in a pilgrimage, gain a multiplier or something for visiting lower tier holy sites before reaching a higher tier site. Paradox would never do this though because they are committed to creating as accessible of a game as possible, and they seem to think that simplicity and lack of depth is the way to achieve that.
Good idea!
maybe they can add more holy sites for each religion in future dlc.
Having a holy site on Mount Athos would also make the faith more tied to Greece, which has a mine and nothing else to it's name. I often just ignore Byzantium as a single good holding is not worth keeping if the surrounding lands are dogshit.
Well, actually, the Phocian schism still existed in 867, therefore, the two churches were oficially separated
It might be worth comparing the depiction of Orthodox between CK2 and 3, as in ck2, the Pentarchy and holy sites are separate. Mt. Athos is a holy site IIRC, and there’s a special system in place that makes the Bishops of the Pentarchy sites into the religious head for the Orthodox realms in the geographical areas unless they are Kingdom-tier plus, at which point their court priests become the realm’s Patriarch akin to a new autocephalous branch.
Edit: clarity
I think slavs pagan religion "slovensko" is interesting to maje video about too. Tho there probably would be a lot of problems in finding information about them
I think that Damascus would have been a reaaaaaally good place, mostly because of Saint John Damascene
Now I'm really curious with stuff like "Dualists".
Like "Mandeaism", which, despite having the "Christian Syncretism" tenet, shares its holy sites with "Sabianism" (which has Islamic Syncretism). But, "Valentinianism" and "Sethianism" (including the rest, technically) share more "Western" sites- mainly, Vaticano. Heck, even "Priscillianism" with a really interesting split of 2 Hispanic Iberian Holy Sites and 3 African/Arabic Holy Sites.
I presume these Dualists cults/faiths may be more obscure (in terms of finding info on them), even fellow Abrahamic "Milete" faith, than faiths like Orthodoxy or Catholicism.
Just an interesting thought
Unifying Orthodox and Catholics on that CK2+ mod caused so many problems especially after holy fury came out
Could you do the coptic holy sites in a future video?
We‘ll look into it!
You can make Ash'iri next ( mainstream sunnis)
I really can’t wait for Slavic Holly sites ❤❤🥰
How well is the Knights Templar portrayed in CK3?
Djvari is indeed very cool monastery, but there is another even bigger and more speciall monastic building in mtskheta called svetitskhoveli cathedrall, in orthodox tradition it is stated that cathedrall houses the holy tunic of jesus, with other christian relics, for that reason mtskheta is also reffered to as second jerusalem
Very interesting, thank you for the input!
In ck2, the patriarchs of rome, antioch, alexandria, Jerusalem DID exist I think they will add them back in a future dlc about the byzantine empire
Whats the music called in the backround?
In Ck2 Mt Athos was a holy site for Eastern Orthodox if I remember right.
As for the problem of schism existing before 1054, the best solution imo would be to remake "catholicism" and "orthodoxy" into "Latin rite" and "Greek rite" and implement separate mechanic of how close they would be to each other, influenced by dynamic event. If close enough, they would consider each other "Righteus" to signify they are in communion. It it goes low enough, they would go "Astray" (and possibly rename to their "standard" names), with possiblity to even go "Hostile" or go back to more good relations. In truth, there was no clear "we're in the irreversible schism" moment. The modern day state of relationship between the Churches is the consequence of the multiple events that started way before 1054 and continued way after that.
how about Nestorianism/the Church of the East for the next video on holy sites? They have one in India iirc
Like I said on the last videos comment section, i believe Corinth, Ephesus and Damascus should be holy sites. Also maybe they could at regional holy sites for different kingdoms/empires or cultural groups like Nidaros for Scandinavia or Linidsfarne for Britannia.
I don't think already separating the churches in the 867 start is inaccurate, as there had already been schisms between east and west leading up to the great schism. Look up the Photian schism.
Pls do Coptic Holy sites
We‘ll look into it at some point!
"Women and most animals are banned from Mount Athos by religious tradition" Where did they get goat milk then? From a male goats... 🤨
This is a joke.
Hahaha good question. But I guess they allow female goats?
One nit pick is that Jvari Monastery is pronounced with J, J as in Just and Jvari means Cross, great video nonetheless ❤❤❤
Thank you for the feedback :)
Only one correction: The Catholics split from the One True Church, nit we from them
A point of semantics, but the truth nonetheless
well only natural you cover the copts next (Coptic)
mount athos should at least be a special building!
Yes!
I truly wish that the Catholic holy sites were they pentarchy, I love larping and setting up Kingdom Tier “Patriarchates” by having bishops control them and changing the names of the Kingdom to “See of Mark” instead of Egypt for example
The irony 2:38😂😂😂
Yeah, it would be great if we can work it like in EU4, with the consecration of metrops, but it would be greater with a real pentarchy, 4 bishops. In one of my gameplay I collected all of them 😂 I converted to nestorian after destroying the abbasid so I can place the church of the east bishop in Jerusalem, converted to Apostolic so I can put him in Antioch (okay, both the COE and Church of Armenia would claim antioch, but I think the armenians deserved it more since the COE are mostly assyrians and centered around baghdad since their split and how they aligned more with the Persian rather than the romans. I also vassalized the pope and converted to coptic and put him in Alexandria 😂. I put my patriarch on constantinple and my main duchy is Cairo (Memphis).
yea
Lmao at the mount athos bit.
The Virgin Mary, a woman: "Sweet this place will be my garden"
Bunch of christians: "Aight, no cooties allowed from now on"
I was disappointed by the ck3 implementation of the pentarchy. Autocephalous churches and pentarchs were a neat way of differentiating the religion.
What is Krstjani?
It's Bosnian Christianity. Paradox just doesn't like for faiths and cultures to use the same name. Krstjani is just the old Bosnian word for "Christians".
CK2 did the Pentarchy better, having the actual Pentarchs and all.
Damascus
Should be noted, Orthodox Christianity DID exist prior to the Great Schism, the Roman Catholic Church didnt really come into being properly until 1054
I just have to tell, Filioque is true! And the Papacy too.
Like others have pointed out Kyiv would've been great, but I also want to add Ohrid, it was one of the most if not the most significant cultural and religious places in the Bulgarian Empire.
Kiev, lil bro, Kiev
@@fiddlesticks7245 Kyiv is the Ukrainian way to write it, lil bro.
@@kjaldir1089 It's goofy, especially in this context, as it was called Kiev during this time. Would you also misspell Kievan Rus as "Kyivan Rus"? Fucking weirdo
@@kjaldir1089a language that did not exist at the time this game takes place. Regardless of Ukraine War disputes, Kiev is the English language name for the city. Kiev is also a city important for Russian Orthodox Christians too, not just Ukrainians, considering it is the birthplace of the Russian Orthodox Church. It’s a far more neutral name than people like to give it credit for nowadays.
@@wolliveryoutube First of all if you want to be technical then the name was never spelled in one way. Old East Slavic had names like Києвъ, Къıєвъ, or Кїєвъ so there's no one correct spelling because I can call it Kiv or Kyi and it will be correct for the times. heck I can even call it Kœnugarðr because that's what the ruling class called it. And if you want to be super technical then Church Slavonic called it києвѣ (Kyev).
So if you want the original it's neither Kiev or Kyiv.
Likewise I could say Achris, Achrida, Ἄχριδα, Ὄχριδα, Ochrida or Охрид instead of Ohrid because all of them were used in the same period of time. So stop cherry-picking because I used the modern term for the city.
☦️💯
Excellent video guys. This shoud help me reform my faith to nude warmongers. 👍
first!!
Yaay :D
BOTZES? Khalkintiki? Is that your best pronounciation?
Didn’t Ukraine get its own Patriarch recently, even though Moscow Patriarch contests this?
Not recognized by the majority of the Orthodox world, as due to the Patriarch of Constantinople extending his authority over areas that he has no authority over. He tried the same in N. Macedonia (whose church became recognized only after Serbia recognized it)
Extremely controversial patriarchate that is not recognized by any Orthodox Christians outside of Greece, Alexandria, and certain parts of Ukraine. A very large portion of the Ukrainian population is still loyal to the Moscow Patriarchate.
@@wolliveryoutube stop spreading misinformation
HIB not a good acronym
Catholichs malding rn
It pisses me off so hard that orthodox just get the main christian holy sites as if they were confirmed the correct sect instead of getting some weird stuff like kiev (which with the conversion of the Rus definitely is a city important than orthodox christianity... before that it still makes about as much sense as half the pagan holy sites 😂)
Would you do some for mods like the fallen eagle (late antiquity mod that's fairly accurate)