After 30+ games of this gem, all I can say that all the stuff (shuffling, upkeep,...) becomes second nature. I just love the game. To have it as a casual game, absolutely no... If you're going to play it a lot, go for it. That's my take.
Agreed. It's an investment (more time than money), but those willing to put in the time will probably feel it's worth it. And honestly, if I was at a different point in my life and had more free time, or if I didn't have a UA-cam channel, maybe I'd be open to playing these more often.
@JD Silas The only difference is the complexity level. Overall, the nations in the Legends box offer more variety and complexity. If you plan to play primarily solo, I'd go with Legends as long as you don't mind the added complexity. If you plan to play with other people and you'll be teaching it to new players a lot, Classics might be the better option. You can't go wrong with either one though.
Superb review. Really top notch. The popularity of these games is so surprising given all of the issues you have raised. Not that it isn't a good game, it's just the hurdles to find the enjoyment are pretty high and many. It totally is a game that you simply have to commit to playing it 5-10 times in a row in order to internalize it and internalize how a faction is intended to function...what is it trying to do and what makes for a "good move". In a solo game if you have obstacles....it's just not going to get played for many of us. I just set up the game and this time I'm committed to powering through 3+ games in a row to see if I can get those hurdles low enough. It's worth mentioning how much after release support the designers have given the game. Nigel and David are outstanding in this regard.
Thanks, Mike! You're absolutely right about Nigel and David - they deserve a lot of credit for how many comments they've responded to on the BGG forums and just how present they've been. That sort of thing goes a long way. Anyway, I hope this next round of games goes better for you. And if not, then if you decide to get rid of the game you can at least feel good about having given it a real shot to get past those hurdles. I'm certainly happy I played it as much as I did and saw what I got to see... even if I'm not quite ready to jump back in any time soon.
Recently had my first play of Legends at 2P the other day and loved it! I’ve now ordered Classics too. We do frequently play long games so that is not a big barrier for us. Found it slightly fiddly but not disproportionately compared to other games, and for how much I enjoyed it. Will see if it has staying power but for now I’m looking forward to tabling it some more.
Right on! Honestly I'm happy to hear that, and I would never want my review to sway people to not try the game if they think they would like it. If I had a small collection and/or a lot more time I'd probably be fine with all the down time and fiddly stuff, but for where I'm at in my life right now it's just not a game that I really have the time to dive into as much as I'd need to fully appreciate it. I'm glad you're enjoying it though, going through all the nations for the first time is the best part. Thanks for watching! - Carlo
I love these games - and have all the same hurdles. End of the day though, for me, the play overcomes the problems for me. Even scoring is pretty fast now that I have it internalized (the bot is VERY straightforward to score, just tricky for some nations as the player).
The scoring definitely got quicker for me after multiple plays, but I still didn't find it all that satisfying to just count up all the points on cards and tokens and then just have that surprise reveal to see who wins.
What a fantastic breakdown Carlo. Im happy to have watched this because this was pretty high up on my « to try » list, but I can definitely relate to a lot of the drawbacks you mentioned being issues for me too. It’s unfortunate because I do agree that what this system promised seemed to be amazing and right up my alley
Thanks, Louis! Definitely still worth trying if either A) you think there's a chance you'll like it enough to maybe get your own copy and really play it a lot, or B) you just want to see some unique stuff.
I've read the manual twice, saw some videos how to play it, even made the setup but my brain hasn't made click yet. I wrapped everything back in the box and still have to try to play it 10 months later.
Yeah, it's an odd one. I also didn't really get it after reading the rules and watching a video. I kind of had to fumble through a game while referencing the rulebook before it made sense... and even then I was still checking the rulebook on my 3rd and 4th play. It's a lot to keep track of. I really wish they'd make an app or a version for Steam.
I really wanted to like these games, and ultimately I felt the same as you. I liked the different AI for each civ, but it was too unwieldy for me and I ended up reselling them. However, a *great* game that I can't recommend enough that's close to Imperium but just better is Pax Pamir 2nd edition. You should try it if you have the opportunity!
I've been wanting to try Pax Pamir for a while but I haven't come across anyone in-person who owns it, and it's not something I want to try digitally for the first time. Hopefully one day soon!
This is super helpful! I just learned about horizons and I’m way more interested in the factions in that game. But I wonder if it’s fixed some of these grapes you’ve had with the original two. Thank you so much for the in-depth look seems so much of my alley, but I think I need to hear more about the third version
Thanks, Reggie! For what it's worth, I hear Horizons addressed SOME of my issues by clarifying the rulebook and generally smoothing out some of those obstacles, but overall I think it's like 90-95% the same (aside from the new factions and that one new mechanic to increase player interaction). I really wish they'd make a digital version. I looked into Horizons and briefly thought about getting it too but for me, personally, it doesn't fix enough of my issues. If you have the time and patience to slog through the games and spend all that time calculating scores it might be worth it for you. Definitely worth at least trying if you know someone who has a copy!
Initially I was a bit wary of the complexity but then I managed to play two factions twice and it is a great game. Does go on for quite a bit but I did come away enjoying it. The value of the 8 different factions is immense for the price. Its just one of the games that I think you need to play the same factions for a few times for then to move onto the next but I fully understand your points which are all valid
Yeah, it's a great game but with so many factions to play I didn't want to stick with the same one for too long. And the setup and teardown and counting the scores at the end are still barriers for me. I really wish they'd make an app!
Yes I agree especially counting the end score. I printed my own insert and dividers and that’s speeds up setup a little. I now use an app that does the scores for me otherwise scoring is a little challenging but I agree with everything you say
Never dove into this but I’d did with MC, JOTL and currently Frosthaven. All two handed. Yes, there is much faff and fiddle. I truly appreciate the long form critique. Most complex games deserve it and older games, ones that have stood the test of time, most definitely so
No problem! And that's not a bad idea, because by then it'll come with some minor rules updates too, along with the 14 new nations, and some replacement cards for Classics/Legends.
Good and fair review. I think I may see if my FLGS has a copy in their library I can try. Then decide from there whether or not it's worth the perchase.
That's a great idea. There are very few instances where I'd recommend an instant buy for a game like this. If you do end up trying it, let me know what you think on Discord!
I really, really enjoyed this game but because of the complex and difficult rules and the way that each civ plays so differently I have struggled to get it back to the table. It's definitely a keeper for me but I need to commit to playing it a couple of times back to back because of the prep work to get it to the table.
Definitely - if you can invest the time to learn the system well, I think you'll be rewarded for it. I just don't have that kind of time right now, otherwise I'd have to stop playing pretty much everything else for a while.
This game seems far too complex for me to enjoy, but I enjoyed learning about it nonetheless. The Overview, Pros, Cons, Comparisons/Alternatives had a nice flow.
I find it truly baffling that Osprey botched this so badly. It's a great game system and they have amazing art for it. They did a great job with products like Undaunted so this should have been an easy win. Hoping they listen to criticism and re-release the game as a second edition or big box version with updated rulebooks, better tokens, better card quality...
It's such a massive project, I don't blame them for not getting it all right, but it does feel like a bit of a missed opportunity to capitalize on something pretty special.
Hey there :) loved the review . Would you mind sharing your story in a few sentenced ? What I mean is, I am possibly somewhere where you were, when started the hobby. Not huge fan on dice and luck , I've naturally grown fond of the deckbuilding genre ( star realms, ascension,race for the galaxy ). But i think it's time to level up and move on. But not really which way to go. The worker placement ? X4 ? roll n write ? I have no clue what would be a natural progression for me. ( i've recently enjoyed spaceshipped , it's neat how much of a clever game can fit into 18 cards ). So any details on how it went for you , would be much appreciated.
That's tough to say. Many gamers prefer to play gradually more complex games but that's not the case for me. Even after almost 1000 plays of Race for the Galaxy, it's still one of the best games I've ever played, and many heavier games don't live up to the hype for me. But if you're looking to see what else is out there and you want games with tough decisions that take many plays to get good at, I would suggest you try some of these: Agricola, Keyflower, Hansa Teutonica, Innovation, Modern Art, The Estates, Res Arcana, Tigris & Euphrates, Babylonia, Ginkgopolis, Renature, Winter Kingdom, etc. If you like deck-builders I would suggest The Quest for El Dorado, Aeon's End, and Dominion. I've also heard good things about Tyrants of the Underdark but I haven't played it yet. I haven't really played any 4X games but I've heard great things about Eclipse, if you want a sci-fi one. Plenty of other games I haven't played but have heard great things about, like Brass, Age of Steam, Barrage, Caylus (or Caylus 1303), Troyes... For me, I really like games that have simple rules but a lot of depth. So even small card games like Battle Line and Arboretum are amazing.
To be honest, after four plays of Classics (1v1) I have dropped my rating to a 6/10. The game just lacks fun in the long run. It has some very original ideas and it's beautiful, but the constant upkeep it forces on players, the sameyness of card effects and the length combined with low player interaction were too much for me to accept. There are numerous games in this genre I'd rather play instead. Imperium: Classics was an ambitious attempt that unfortunately didn't fully deliver on what it promissed. I'd play Innovation or Glory to Rome any day over this.
I think I'd land somewhere around a 6 too, maybe 6.5. If it were a digital game or somehow didn't have all the admin stuff, I think the core game itself could go as high as 8 or 8.5 for me, depending how much Horizons improves the game.
I have heard mixed reviews on this game. Some people love it and say the AI(s) is/are amazing. Some people say it's as complicated as crap and does not play well. I am intrigued, but don't know if I want to pull the trigger.
It's such an interesting game and I wanted so badly to love it, but even after multiple plays the upkeep/admin is just too much. And the scoring at the end is cumbersome and underwhelming. It all depends on your level of tolerance for fiddliness, and how much time you're okay with spending doing stuff that isn't actually PLAYING the game. Lots of shuffling, sorting between games, scoring takes a while, running the bot, etc... after around 10 games I was still never able to play a full game without referring back to the rulebook multiple times. I seriously hope they make a digital version one day.
The tedium of setup and tear down in deck builders is the reason why I can’t own them physically. There are some great deck builders out there, but the only way I can truly enjoy them is through tabletop simulator with scripting that automated the setup and negates the test down. Having to go through all the cards to reset them before or after every game just sucks big time. I like deck building as a mechanic but it’s gotta be a minor mechanic for me to enjoy it such as Dune Imperium where the decks never get big enough to be annoying to tear down at the end.
I totally agree. Even Dominion which I've played a bunch in person doesn't hold a candle to the digital versions which script everything. Seriously, they need to make more apps and Steam versions of these games. Slay the Spire is soooo good as a PC game. I would play these Imperium games a LOT if they were digital.
Ive tried 3 times to play this solo. I can get through 1 turn...but that's it. It's so overly complicated. I appreciate some people like it. But I hate this game.
It's pretty rough to get started, it doesn't help that the rulebooks weren't the greatest. I had to read the rules multiple times and watch a couple of playthroughs before getting started, and even then I had to keep checking the rules more while playing. Apparently they've addressed some of these issues with the newest version (Horizons) along with an updated rulebook, but it's not enough for me to want to revisit it.
My opinion was that it was very tedious. Which is a very frustrating assessment of an empire building game. Lol building an empire IS tedious. Problem is, I want a game that's enjoyable and fun. This game is like a desk job in the accounting department. Lots of important things need to be done. This gives you a sense of accomplishment, but at what cost? I always want a nap after trying this game.
What are your thoughts on the Imperium games while playing solo?
What about with other players? Which do you prefer?
After 30+ games of this gem, all I can say that all the stuff (shuffling, upkeep,...) becomes second nature. I just love the game. To have it as a casual game, absolutely no... If you're going to play it a lot, go for it. That's my take.
If you could only get one, would your recommend legends or classics? :)
@@1n1ee I only have Classic. I chose that one because of the nations. Vikings, Greeks, Romans, Celts... All of my favorites are in there.
Agreed. It's an investment (more time than money), but those willing to put in the time will probably feel it's worth it. And honestly, if I was at a different point in my life and had more free time, or if I didn't have a UA-cam channel, maybe I'd be open to playing these more often.
@JD Silas The only difference is the complexity level. Overall, the nations in the Legends box offer more variety and complexity. If you plan to play primarily solo, I'd go with Legends as long as you don't mind the added complexity. If you plan to play with other people and you'll be teaching it to new players a lot, Classics might be the better option. You can't go wrong with either one though.
@@AllYouCanBoard gotcha! Thanks for the responses!
Superb review. Really top notch. The popularity of these games is so surprising given all of the issues you have raised. Not that it isn't a good game, it's just the hurdles to find the enjoyment are pretty high and many. It totally is a game that you simply have to commit to playing it 5-10 times in a row in order to internalize it and internalize how a faction is intended to function...what is it trying to do and what makes for a "good move". In a solo game if you have obstacles....it's just not going to get played for many of us. I just set up the game and this time I'm committed to powering through 3+ games in a row to see if I can get those hurdles low enough. It's worth mentioning how much after release support the designers have given the game. Nigel and David are outstanding in this regard.
Thanks, Mike! You're absolutely right about Nigel and David - they deserve a lot of credit for how many comments they've responded to on the BGG forums and just how present they've been. That sort of thing goes a long way. Anyway, I hope this next round of games goes better for you. And if not, then if you decide to get rid of the game you can at least feel good about having given it a real shot to get past those hurdles. I'm certainly happy I played it as much as I did and saw what I got to see... even if I'm not quite ready to jump back in any time soon.
Recently had my first play of Legends at 2P the other day and loved it! I’ve now ordered Classics too. We do frequently play long games so that is not a big barrier for us. Found it slightly fiddly but not disproportionately compared to other games, and for how much I enjoyed it. Will see if it has staying power but for now I’m looking forward to tabling it some more.
Right on! Honestly I'm happy to hear that, and I would never want my review to sway people to not try the game if they think they would like it. If I had a small collection and/or a lot more time I'd probably be fine with all the down time and fiddly stuff, but for where I'm at in my life right now it's just not a game that I really have the time to dive into as much as I'd need to fully appreciate it. I'm glad you're enjoying it though, going through all the nations for the first time is the best part. Thanks for watching!
- Carlo
I love these games - and have all the same hurdles. End of the day though, for me, the play overcomes the problems for me. Even scoring is pretty fast now that I have it internalized (the bot is VERY straightforward to score, just tricky for some nations as the player).
The scoring definitely got quicker for me after multiple plays, but I still didn't find it all that satisfying to just count up all the points on cards and tokens and then just have that surprise reveal to see who wins.
What a fantastic breakdown Carlo. Im happy to have watched this because this was pretty high up on my « to try » list, but I can definitely relate to a lot of the drawbacks you mentioned being issues for me too. It’s unfortunate because I do agree that what this system promised seemed to be amazing and right up my alley
Thanks, Louis! Definitely still worth trying if either A) you think there's a chance you'll like it enough to maybe get your own copy and really play it a lot, or B) you just want to see some unique stuff.
Great review, thank you!
I've read the manual twice, saw some videos how to play it, even made the setup but my brain hasn't made click yet.
I wrapped everything back in the box and still have to try to play it 10 months later.
Yeah, it's an odd one. I also didn't really get it after reading the rules and watching a video. I kind of had to fumble through a game while referencing the rulebook before it made sense... and even then I was still checking the rulebook on my 3rd and 4th play. It's a lot to keep track of. I really wish they'd make an app or a version for Steam.
I really wanted to like these games, and ultimately I felt the same as you. I liked the different AI for each civ, but it was too unwieldy for me and I ended up reselling them. However, a *great* game that I can't recommend enough that's close to Imperium but just better is Pax Pamir 2nd edition. You should try it if you have the opportunity!
I've been wanting to try Pax Pamir for a while but I haven't come across anyone in-person who owns it, and it's not something I want to try digitally for the first time. Hopefully one day soon!
This is super helpful! I just learned about horizons and I’m way more interested in the factions in that game. But I wonder if it’s fixed some of these grapes you’ve had with the original two. Thank you so much for the in-depth look seems so much of my alley, but I think I need to hear more about the third version
Thanks, Reggie! For what it's worth, I hear Horizons addressed SOME of my issues by clarifying the rulebook and generally smoothing out some of those obstacles, but overall I think it's like 90-95% the same (aside from the new factions and that one new mechanic to increase player interaction).
I really wish they'd make a digital version. I looked into Horizons and briefly thought about getting it too but for me, personally, it doesn't fix enough of my issues. If you have the time and patience to slog through the games and spend all that time calculating scores it might be worth it for you. Definitely worth at least trying if you know someone who has a copy!
Initially I was a bit wary of the complexity but then I managed to play two factions twice and it is a great game. Does go on for quite a bit but I did come away enjoying it. The value of the 8 different factions is immense for the price. Its just one of the games that I think you need to play the same factions for a few times for then to move onto the next but I fully understand your points which are all valid
Yeah, it's a great game but with so many factions to play I didn't want to stick with the same one for too long. And the setup and teardown and counting the scores at the end are still barriers for me. I really wish they'd make an app!
Yes I agree especially counting the end score. I printed my own insert and dividers and that’s speeds up setup a little. I now use an app that does the scores for me otherwise scoring is a little challenging but I agree with everything you say
Never dove into this but I’d did with MC, JOTL and currently Frosthaven. All two handed. Yes, there is much faff and fiddle.
I truly appreciate the long form critique. Most complex games deserve it and older games, ones that have stood the test of time, most definitely so
As always, thanks for the comment, JJE. Glad you're enjoying these more in-depth reviews.
Thank you for the great review! I think I will wait for Horizons now.
No problem! And that's not a bad idea, because by then it'll come with some minor rules updates too, along with the 14 new nations, and some replacement cards for Classics/Legends.
Good and fair review. I think I may see if my FLGS has a copy in their library I can try. Then decide from there whether or not it's worth the perchase.
That's a great idea. There are very few instances where I'd recommend an instant buy for a game like this. If you do end up trying it, let me know what you think on Discord!
@@AllYouCanBoard Will do.
I really, really enjoyed this game but because of the complex and difficult rules and the way that each civ plays so differently I have struggled to get it back to the table. It's definitely a keeper for me but I need to commit to playing it a couple of times back to back because of the prep work to get it to the table.
Definitely - if you can invest the time to learn the system well, I think you'll be rewarded for it. I just don't have that kind of time right now, otherwise I'd have to stop playing pretty much everything else for a while.
This game seems far too complex for me to enjoy, but I enjoyed learning about it nonetheless. The Overview, Pros, Cons, Comparisons/Alternatives had a nice flow.
I find it truly baffling that Osprey botched this so badly. It's a great game system and they have amazing art for it. They did a great job with products like Undaunted so this should have been an easy win. Hoping they listen to criticism and re-release the game as a second edition or big box version with updated rulebooks, better tokens, better card quality...
It's such a massive project, I don't blame them for not getting it all right, but it does feel like a bit of a missed opportunity to capitalize on something pretty special.
Hey there :) loved the review . Would you mind sharing your story in a few sentenced ? What I mean is, I am possibly somewhere where you were, when started the hobby. Not huge fan on dice and luck , I've naturally grown fond of the deckbuilding genre ( star realms, ascension,race for the galaxy ). But i think it's time to level up and move on. But not really which way to go. The worker placement ? X4 ? roll n write ? I have no clue what would be a natural progression for me. ( i've recently enjoyed spaceshipped , it's neat how much of a clever game can fit into 18 cards ). So any details on how it went for you , would be much appreciated.
That's tough to say. Many gamers prefer to play gradually more complex games but that's not the case for me. Even after almost 1000 plays of Race for the Galaxy, it's still one of the best games I've ever played, and many heavier games don't live up to the hype for me.
But if you're looking to see what else is out there and you want games with tough decisions that take many plays to get good at, I would suggest you try some of these: Agricola, Keyflower, Hansa Teutonica, Innovation, Modern Art, The Estates, Res Arcana, Tigris & Euphrates, Babylonia, Ginkgopolis, Renature, Winter Kingdom, etc.
If you like deck-builders I would suggest The Quest for El Dorado, Aeon's End, and Dominion. I've also heard good things about Tyrants of the Underdark but I haven't played it yet.
I haven't really played any 4X games but I've heard great things about Eclipse, if you want a sci-fi one.
Plenty of other games I haven't played but have heard great things about, like Brass, Age of Steam, Barrage, Caylus (or Caylus 1303), Troyes...
For me, I really like games that have simple rules but a lot of depth. So even small card games like Battle Line and Arboretum are amazing.
To be honest, after four plays of Classics (1v1) I have dropped my rating to a 6/10. The game just lacks fun in the long run. It has some very original ideas and it's beautiful, but the constant upkeep it forces on players, the sameyness of card effects and the length combined with low player interaction were too much for me to accept. There are numerous games in this genre I'd rather play instead. Imperium: Classics was an ambitious attempt that unfortunately didn't fully deliver on what it promissed. I'd play Innovation or Glory to Rome any day over this.
I’m with you.
I traded it for another game 😁
I think I'd land somewhere around a 6 too, maybe 6.5. If it were a digital game or somehow didn't have all the admin stuff, I think the core game itself could go as high as 8 or 8.5 for me, depending how much Horizons improves the game.
I have heard mixed reviews on this game. Some people love it and say the AI(s) is/are amazing. Some people say it's as complicated as crap and does not play well. I am intrigued, but don't know if I want to pull the trigger.
It's such an interesting game and I wanted so badly to love it, but even after multiple plays the upkeep/admin is just too much. And the scoring at the end is cumbersome and underwhelming.
It all depends on your level of tolerance for fiddliness, and how much time you're okay with spending doing stuff that isn't actually PLAYING the game. Lots of shuffling, sorting between games, scoring takes a while, running the bot, etc... after around 10 games I was still never able to play a full game without referring back to the rulebook multiple times.
I seriously hope they make a digital version one day.
The tedium of setup and tear down in deck builders is the reason why I can’t own them physically. There are some great deck builders out there, but the only way I can truly enjoy them is through tabletop simulator with scripting that automated the setup and negates the test down. Having to go through all the cards to reset them before or after every game just sucks big time. I like deck building as a mechanic but it’s gotta be a minor mechanic for me to enjoy it such as Dune Imperium where the decks never get big enough to be annoying to tear down at the end.
I totally agree. Even Dominion which I've played a bunch in person doesn't hold a candle to the digital versions which script everything.
Seriously, they need to make more apps and Steam versions of these games. Slay the Spire is soooo good as a PC game. I would play these Imperium games a LOT if they were digital.
Ive tried 3 times to play this solo. I can get through 1 turn...but that's it. It's so overly complicated. I appreciate some people like it. But I hate this game.
It's pretty rough to get started, it doesn't help that the rulebooks weren't the greatest. I had to read the rules multiple times and watch a couple of playthroughs before getting started, and even then I had to keep checking the rules more while playing.
Apparently they've addressed some of these issues with the newest version (Horizons) along with an updated rulebook, but it's not enough for me to want to revisit it.
Carlo, seems Canada is the place to be if you like board games. Would've been nice to have a webchat some time (not for UA-cam that is).
It really is, Per. Long, cold winters are perfect for sitting inside playing games.
My opinion was that it was very tedious. Which is a very frustrating assessment of an empire building game. Lol building an empire IS tedious.
Problem is, I want a game that's enjoyable and fun. This game is like a desk job in the accounting department. Lots of important things need to be done. This gives you a sense of accomplishment, but at what cost? I always want a nap after trying this game.
Haha, yup. I still feel like a digital version would make it less nap-inducing.
Sleeve the cards!
Well it's either that or get rid of the game... to play any longer and further ruin the cards would be a shame.