Since the delegation from London Transport went to New York,mayhaps they saw the never built Independent Subway plans! There were express services and a fairly decent coverage of otherwise nonconnected areas in Brooklyn and Queens! Pity that those lines never saw the light of day,as the current map,still has gaping holes in the fabric of the City's transit! Thank you,Jago,for the information and insight 🙏! Thank you 😇 😊!
I find it interesting that London has taken so long to looking at the bigger picture, and express lines never really took off, until Crossrail/Elizabeth/PurpleTrain came along...I would love to see more RER type lines in London in future, with lots of future proofing, as regards capacity..Just think, if it wasnt for WW2, we may have had a far bigger network, if these and other lines had actually got built...
My ultimate dream for London is joining up Overgroud lines/suburban lines on opposite sites of Central London with tunnels connecting them up. In time you can have the Watford DC line through running to the C2C or the Lea Valley Lines through running to the Sutton Loop or any such example. Crossrails 3/4/5 and onwards.
Doubt if many more deep level lines will be built through central London as running out of space, parts of the Elizabeth Line only has a few centimetres clearance through the maze of existing tunnels.
Express tube lines came about in a roundabout way, the Thameslink is an express version of the Northern line from London Bridge and Elephant & Castle to Kentish Town, and the Elizabeth line is an express version of the Central line
Remember my father talking about the tube being extended to near Waltham Abbey when we lived there all those years ago. This must have been what he was thinking of so thanks for clearing up a bit of a mystery.
Interesting that they never planned a link from Chingford to Enfield Town as a loop. Given the development of the North Circular, it's hard to argue that there isn't a demand for transport across and around greater London (as the Elizabeth Line appears to demonstrate).
Might be a difficult route with a large reservoir in between!. Long ago, when I was much younger, missing the last train to Brimsdown and even the later trains via Southbury and even Enfield Town the last option was the very late service to Chingford and a long walk.
I grew up in Enfield and used the railway from Enfield Town a lot. It's a nice little line. I should have added that when I first used it it was steam hauled by 060 tank engines. There, now you know roughly how old I am...
In the early 1920s, services on the Enfield, Chingford and Walthamstow lines were revamped to reduce journey times and turnaround times at each end. To help speed up boarding times the various classes of coach had different coloured stripes over the doors and windows. This colourful appearance caused the new arrangements to be nicknamed "The Jazz Service". Prophetic, that! (JA[go h]AZZ[ard] - geddit??!)
All your videos are fantastic. You obviously do a lot of research to put them together. And another pleasing aspect of them is your voice. It's always a pleasure to watch and listen to them. Take care and keep them coming. Thank you.
Thanks for unearthing this! I've often felt that the Liverpool St to Chingford/Cheshunt/Enfield lines were rather awkwardly tacked on to the tube/overground network. If the desire to connect them up to a southern terminus should re-surface (after the trauma of the Elizabeth line has passed) I'd suggest that a better match for them would be with the Wimbledon suburban lines from Waterloo, connecting via rebuilt Waterloo & City tunnels, with extra stations at Blackfriars (for Thameslink) and Shoreditch (for the OG East London line). Given Elizabeth line quality signalling, three services, each 8 trains per hour, could run e.g. Enfield to Epsom, Chingford to Kingston (& Shepperton), Cheshunt to Hampton Ct (or maybe Effingham). Plenty of tube connections to the West End en route.
I used to use turkey street a lot in the 90’s. Before all the upgrades to it. It was a really dangerous station back in the day, tucked away from the high streets of enfield. You had to have your wits about you.
Thanks very much for this video, Jago. Very interesting to see the evolution of what eventually became the Victoria Line, and the Tottenham Court Road to Liverpool Street stretch of the Elizabeth Line. Back in November I had great fun taking a train on the Great Eastern leg from Stratford to Cheshunt, and then the Overground from Cheshunt to Seven Sisters. I then took the tube from Seven Sisters to Walthamstow Central (never having been on that section of the Victoria Line before), before disembarking, and taking the Overground to Chingford. Curiosity suitably satisfied, I now just have the Enfield Town leg of the Overground to explore. So fascinating to see where the surface railways can take you in and around London. Thanks again for the video shedding light on this 👏🏾❤
You get the feeling that the General Manager of Railways, John Pattinson-Thomas, was a Cleese-like figure, very tall, with a little clipped moustache and a bowler hat. Much more respectable than our old friend CTY
Tube figures as Monty Python characters... I like it. Graham Chapman - James Staats Forbes Michael Palin - Charles Holden Terry Jones - Frank Pick Eric Idle - Charles Tyson Yerkes
An outer reach to Hitchin, Wow..... If only it had happened.... It could have been the North Herts equivalent of the Metropolitan line way out in rural Buckinghamshire !!
Hi Jay, Did you know that the installation of LT roundels on the Overground lines breaks the law ? Under the Railways Act 1993, passengers were supposed to see the BR Double Arrow logo so they would know their tickets are valid. This is why Tweedbank has a BR logo, yet it reopened long after BR had gone.
Interesting but I was hoping for a bit more content about the Chingford line. Actually steam was still in use until 1963 as it took a while to get the electric rolling stock into service to fill the timetable between Liverpool St. & Chingford.
It is interesting that TfL has gone from bolting British Rail branchlines onto deep level tubes, to absorbing those branchlines into London Overground, and continuing to run full size trains. I'm guessing that the next stage of public transport infrastructure is going to be about revisiting that deep-level District Line idea and building full-size tube lines, that hook up to branchlines and free up mainline capacity. I think that, in the future, London Overground lines, we have today, will have routes similar to Crossrail 2, and people will be talking about widening the old deep level tube tunnels, to allow the rest of the network to catch up.
Better still, build it to UIC standard! The Paris R E R has double decker trains, twelve coaches long. That really provides capacity for a growing number of passengers.
This fanciful ‘Tale From Da Tube’ kept me occupied as I was waiting in my local ‘Subway’ diner/restaurant for some orders to clear. Really helped pass da time 🕰️.
When Liv St first opened there was a rail connection from platform 1 to the metropolitan line. I don't think it was ever used operationally, and the last traces of it were removed when liv St was rebuilt. Old liv St users may recall that platform 1 was much longer than its neighbours.
The only traces left are the filled in tunnel portal on the Met Lines. Used to be visible, on the west side of Liverpool St Met before recent works blocked it from view.
Hasn't Crossrail 1 already paid for itself within a year of it opening? If that isn't more than enough reason to get the ball rolling on Crossrail 2 ASAP then idk what else would be...
@@lordgemini2376the rest if the country would kick off if that happened without other parts of the country getting an upgraded services. Yes, CR2 would be useful. But have you tried travelling the equivalent distance (say between Abbey Wood and Heathrow) in the North? Its Overcrowded, old trains that if you are lucky happen once or twice an hour.
@@timw.8452 almost the entirety of the work so far on that project has been located around Manchester, rather than where it's generally agreed that's it's more needed on the Yorkshire side of the link. Manchester like London seems to get a larger share of any financing that comes the Norths way. Where Sheffield and Leeds are only given money for smaller projects. Leeds has been turned down numerous times for transport projects,local rail travel in South Yorkshire is still on 50 year old trains, with signalling restricting increase of services, when longer trains and more frequent services are needed and have been needed for over 15 years.
I think ultimately his idea (bar Palace Gates) was absolutely correct in identifying a demand for trains. Its just that building a tube line for most of it was unneeded. The Chingford-Liverpool Street - Enfield/Cheshunt loop as electrified overground worked perfectly well. The Victoria line filled the demand for those needing to get deeper into city then Liverpool Street. I'm super familiar with this as I've been using the Chingford-Liverpool Street line (and the Victoria via Walthamstow Central) for... 30 years of my 35 year life! Like all trains.... we moan and gripe about it, but it is ultimately fantastic compared to most places in the world.
For the automatic train operation on the Victoria line. looks like they were able to get that from New York City Times Square Grand Central Terminal shuttle before the fire that destroyed the automatic train operation there
One feels that the Chingford branch might have been usefully converted into a tube line; even the upper end might work as a Victoria Line extension. The service isn't really frequent enough. Quick quiz; which two adjacent suburban stations on a main line in London have no service between them at all? Answer; Clapton and Tottenham Hale, because the former is only served by Chingford branch trains. Means that local connectivity in the area isn't great. To connect, say, to Stansted Airport, you have to take a bus or walk to the reopened Lea Bridge.
Mr Jago, ar 4:40 you started to sound like”the book” from Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy. I’m surprised that the plans weren’t buried in peat for 3 months and recycled as fire-lighters! 😊
We'll just have to hope he doesn't go the whole H2G2 hog, and make the accompanying videos too fast to take in properly! (That's the TV series "book" I'm referring to, not the one in the less appealing 2005 movie.)
Going back few weeks ago. TfL wants to rename some of the London Overground lines from May next year but I don’t think it would be renamed and to have new colour schemes. And of course the proposed Crossrail 2 to be built that would extend to New Highgate and the proposed eastern extension to Epping taking over the Central Line. Or to Chingford taking over the London Overground Chingford line via Dalston and Clapton. Or perhaps the Waterloo & City Line could of extend from Bank to Chingford and Enfield Town and from Waterloo to Putney and Richmond.
Would the Liverpool Street to Tottenham Court Road line really have run via Camden Town?! (3:10) That seems a huge deviation ... and it might have been far more useful to serve Kings Cross and Euston. Farringdon or Holborn sound much more sensible ... the former of course now being the Elizabeth Line route.
I’d much rather ride a mainline train to Cheshunt than a tube train. I used to love the ride between Broxbourne and Liverpool Street, my favourite London terminus with its delightful electromechanical signboard. I’d need a time machine today.
Are my ears deceiving me? I could have sworn you said that the new tunnel through central London would run from Liverpool St through Camden Town, Tottenham Court Rd and Piccadilly Circus to Victoria. _Camden Town???_ That sort of detour wouldn't make it a very effective express route!
do you agree that although post 1930 new lines have been hammered by bureaucracy that a lot of sensible decisions have been made from Yerkee's onwards and that most of the mistakes belong to the 19th Century?
Along with the Victoria, I guess it's nice that this section of the Lea Valley Lines did eventually become a part of the Overground. In some small way the plan was realised. It's interesting that something like this was dreamt up; it definitely speaks to a newfound optimism for London's transport at the time. 5:53 Honestly, is this not part of why the Northern Line is somewhat infamous for issues in running it? It's by far the most complicated line and that absolutely has caused problems before. There is absolutely value in rapid transit lines like these, where trains might come every 2 minutes, being made streamlined and simple as a general rule; fewer branches and loops, and what not. Great video!
I too was puzzled at 3:09 with the idea of running a tunnel from Liverpool St up to Camden and then back down to Tottenham Ct Rd an onwards to Victoria. The Liverpool St - TCR - Piccadilly Circus - Victoria makes sense, but that detour to Camden and turn around not so sure!
@@JagoHazzard If we "brought back" the Fleet Line, it could have the abandoned Charring Cross Station platforms, from the Jubilee Line and could maybe then go somewhere else (instead of via Paddington). Victoria, then Old Oak Common might be a way to fill the thing up from Day 1.
I noticed that your video ended at “ST JAMES STREET”. Has that station endured the same name spelling controversy as “ST JAMES’ / ST JAMES’S” station in central London?
Four termini on one end and two on the other? Sounds a bit like the District Line, with Seven Sisters as the new Earl's Court (more or less). Maybe it could have worked as two lines, one from Moorgate terminating at, for example, Enfield Town and Cheshunt, and one from Victoria to Palace Gates and Chingford. But that line from Moorgate to Palace Gates seems like a particularly big question mark... or maybe that's just how the map is drawn.
An interesting film record of the past is NORTH WOOLWICH to PALACE GATES steam train ride 1960 on the Alan Snowdon Archive channel (If I may be permitted to suggest this ?)
A second line, rather than a branch, would be the way to go. The 90 second railway plan, that the Victoria Line manager brought in was all about simplifying the railway as much as possible. They even had to get rid of the trains that turned back part-way up the route, as that was slowing things down a bit.
Im sure I remember seeing direct trains between 7 sisters and stratford in the days of pre eurostar. Cannot find it anymore though? Did it suddenly close or is video to come on this....🤷♂️🙂
He made a video about that subject 3 months ago: "Naming the Overground Lines, and why £4 million actually isn't that much". He also made a video about doing the same for the DLR 2 weeks ago "Should the DLR lines get their own identities?".
I'm a decided fan of the Northern Heights scheme, which I mourn greatly, but this Chingford/Cheshunt-Victoria project sounds well overfangled. Luckily it got resolved more sensibly.
How would you run an "Express" train on a two-track underground line? Building "passing sidings" would require widening the tube's footprint. Switching the Express around slower trains on a two-track system would delay opposing trains. I would appreciate a video exploring how the Tube runs Express trains today.
You should do the "Crane Line". Transport for London asked the historian Nicholas Crane to submit a proposal for a new tube line, more as a courtesy than anything else. Then Transport for London's top bods took a look at it. And they liked it. The proposal is still at Transport for London's head office, marked "For possible implementation"!
Wait, the route from Liverpool Street to Victoria was to be via Camden Town, Tottenham Court Road and Piccadilly Circus? That does not make any damn sense. Anyway within the context of the various southward Moorgate extensions of the Northern City (like say to Mansion House / Cannon Street, etc), how plausible would it have been to reroute mainline services to Liverpool Street onto a new route towards a Moorgate through station southwards similar to the 1913 Metropolitan scheme for a Northern City connection from Old Street to Liverpool Street?
Extending the Jubilee at Stratford is extremely difficult (and expensive) since no provisions were made for a future extension. Apart from going through a hall and ending up in Westfield, the passenger flows through the station are already a nightmare and would become even worse.
@@Tonydjjokerit you lost me there, what junction?? I'm talking about Stratford station, are you familiar with the station, the location of the Jubilee platforms, the halls in front of them, the buildings ahead in that direction, and the passenger flows through the station?
So, to summarise, the minutes of the meeting went like this. "Good morning. We have money to extend. Where do you want to go?" "Chingford, Cheshunt and Palace Gales." "We have no money to extend. See you in the next meeting."
As a local resident on this imaginary line that was never to be, makes me sad to think what could have been. The current 2tph on the Cheshunt route and even Greater Anglia's routes is quite annoying, having to plan what time to leave, and from which station, every time I take a train into Central London. No "turn up and go" fanciness here 🙁 When Crossrail 2 got shelved, that was another moment of utter sadness from me.
As a long-time commuter on the chingford line I know that electrification (I can remember that happening!) and coming under TfL were the two best things that ever happened to it. I can't imagine that joining it to the underground could ever work; sounds like something BoJo might have dreamt up
Did you see those seats at 6:08? Why those colours and that pattern? Maybe you could investigate the history of underground train's upholstery for us, Jago!
Someone on another site once commented that if you look at that pattern and allow your eyes to go out of focus, a 3-D image of the LT roundel will appear. Like those "Magic Eye" books that were so popular once upon a time.
Jago generally doesn't do South of Morden, Maidstone might be tolerable but Melbourne would be pushing it. He would have to do a course in Vlocity, Xtrapolis, Harris cars and N stock, not to mention Myki and regional fast rail and grade separated crossings.
Since the delegation from London Transport went to New York,mayhaps they saw the never built Independent Subway plans! There were express services and a fairly decent coverage of otherwise nonconnected areas in Brooklyn and Queens! Pity that those lines never saw the light of day,as the current map,still has gaping holes in the fabric of the City's transit! Thank you,Jago,for the information and insight 🙏! Thank you 😇 😊!
I find it interesting that London has taken so long to looking at the bigger picture, and express lines never really took off, until Crossrail/Elizabeth/PurpleTrain came along...I would love to see more RER type lines in London in future, with lots of future proofing, as regards capacity..Just think, if it wasnt for WW2, we may have had a far bigger network, if these and other lines had actually got built...
My ultimate dream for London is joining up Overgroud lines/suburban lines on opposite sites of Central London with tunnels connecting them up. In time you can have the Watford DC line through running to the C2C or the Lea Valley Lines through running to the Sutton Loop or any such example. Crossrails 3/4/5 and onwards.
@@lordgemini2376 that gets my vote! Sadly, it will probably be 50 years hence...(When I will be 112!)
Campaign for Crossrail 2, like this comment to sign.
Ah yes The RER
Doubt if many more deep level lines will be built through central London as running out of space, parts of the Elizabeth Line only has a few centimetres clearance through the maze of existing tunnels.
Me and some of my mates used to access and play along the old Palace Gates branch.
Express tube lines came about in a roundabout way, the Thameslink is an express version of the Northern line from London Bridge and Elephant & Castle to Kentish Town, and the Elizabeth line is an express version of the Central line
And in some ways the Victoria Line is like a shortcut line of the Northern Line section from Stockwell to Euston!
The Victoria line was designed to improve connectivity, all stations apart from one (looking at you, Pimlico) are interchanges of one sort or another.
Thameslink is national rail
@@StrikingAlexaI know that, but its still an express version of the city branch of the northern line and also helps the Circle line
I thank the new works programme for supplying Jago with so many videos of content even though they didn’t seem to ever achieve much!
Remember my father talking about the tube being extended to near Waltham Abbey when we lived there all those years ago. This must have been what he was thinking of so thanks for clearing up a bit of a mystery.
Interesting that they never planned a link from Chingford to Enfield Town as a loop. Given the development of the North Circular, it's hard to argue that there isn't a demand for transport across and around greater London (as the Elizabeth Line appears to demonstrate).
Might be a difficult route with a large reservoir in between!. Long ago, when I was much younger, missing the last train to Brimsdown and even the later trains via Southbury and even Enfield Town the last option was the very late service to Chingford and a long walk.
I grew up in Enfield and used the railway from Enfield Town a lot. It's a nice little line.
I should have added that when I first used it it was steam hauled by 060 tank engines. There, now you know roughly how old I am...
I love me some Sunday Jago videos. Nice treat on a Sunday morning.
Thanks once more. Your explanation about the history of the underground is absolutely amazing
In the early 1920s, services on the Enfield, Chingford and Walthamstow lines were revamped to reduce journey times and turnaround times at each end. To help speed up boarding times the various classes of coach had different coloured stripes over the doors and windows. This colourful appearance caused the new arrangements to be nicknamed "The Jazz Service". Prophetic, that! (JA[go h]AZZ[ard] - geddit??!)
All your videos are fantastic. You obviously do a lot of research to put them together. And another pleasing aspect of them is your voice. It's always a pleasure to watch and listen to them. Take care and keep them coming. Thank you.
So nice to see a story on hidden histories. Also, can’t wait for the ‘several other stories’.
Thanks for unearthing this! I've often felt that the Liverpool St to Chingford/Cheshunt/Enfield lines were rather awkwardly tacked on to the tube/overground network. If the desire to connect them up to a southern terminus should re-surface (after the trauma of the Elizabeth line has passed) I'd suggest that a better match for them would be with the Wimbledon suburban lines from Waterloo, connecting via rebuilt Waterloo & City tunnels, with extra stations at Blackfriars (for Thameslink) and Shoreditch (for the OG East London line). Given Elizabeth line quality signalling, three services, each 8 trains per hour, could run e.g. Enfield to Epsom, Chingford to Kingston (& Shepperton), Cheshunt to Hampton Ct (or maybe Effingham). Plenty of tube connections to the West End en route.
And thanks again Jago. Very interesting as usual 👍
6:08 I was shocked to see Turkey Street - and delighted to find it’s a real station, albeit on the overground!
Possibly the best-named station on the London map.
I used to use turkey street a lot in the 90’s. Before all the upgrades to it. It was a really dangerous station back in the day, tucked away from the high streets of enfield. You had to have your wits about you.
@@TerraFirmaTyger
it has a touch of Istanbul perhaps.
@@JagoHazzard Needs to be part of a video on stations with bird names - and their etymology!
@@JagoHazzard
A hot place on 25 December.
Thanks, as a small boy I collected engine numbers on the Chingford line and for a while commuted on it.
Debating whether to watch a bit of Wimbledon, or a Jago Hazzard video, you won Jago - Game set and match!
Thanks very much for this video, Jago. Very interesting to see the evolution of what eventually became the Victoria Line, and the Tottenham Court Road to Liverpool Street stretch of the Elizabeth Line. Back in November I had great fun taking a train on the Great Eastern leg from Stratford to Cheshunt, and then the Overground from Cheshunt to Seven Sisters. I then took the tube from Seven Sisters to Walthamstow Central (never having been on that section of the Victoria Line before), before disembarking, and taking the Overground to Chingford. Curiosity suitably satisfied, I now just have the Enfield Town leg of the Overground to explore. So fascinating to see where the surface railways can take you in and around London. Thanks again for the video shedding light on this 👏🏾❤
I certainly require much needed relief from my eastern and western extremities, an express section up the middle would be most helpful
Not a gastric bypass surely.
You get the feeling that the General Manager of Railways, John Pattinson-Thomas, was a Cleese-like figure, very tall, with a little clipped moustache and a bowler hat. Much more respectable than our old friend CTY
Tube figures as Monty Python characters... I like it.
Graham Chapman - James Staats Forbes
Michael Palin - Charles Holden
Terry Jones - Frank Pick
Eric Idle - Charles Tyson Yerkes
@camenbert5837 this is only genius !
An outer reach to Hitchin, Wow..... If only it had happened.... It could have been the North Herts equivalent of the Metropolitan line way out in rural Buckinghamshire !!
I've not been out to Enfield on the train in years. Will have to put that right.
Hi Jay, Did you know that the installation of LT roundels on the Overground lines breaks the law ? Under the Railways Act 1993, passengers were supposed to see the BR Double Arrow logo so they would know their tickets are valid. This is why Tweedbank has a BR logo, yet it reopened long after BR had gone.
Interesting but I was hoping for a bit more content about the Chingford line. Actually steam was still in use until 1963 as it took a while to get the electric rolling stock into service to fill the timetable between Liverpool St. & Chingford.
Jago could you do a video on the various ideas to build new tram lines in London?
It’s a bit surreal to think my local branch (Edmonton) could’ve been an Underground Line instead. Wow.
Always enjoy your stories of what might have been .. also looking forward to your take on Euston station situation.
It is interesting that TfL has gone from bolting British Rail branchlines onto deep level tubes, to absorbing those branchlines into London Overground, and continuing to run full size trains.
I'm guessing that the next stage of public transport infrastructure is going to be about revisiting that deep-level District Line idea and building full-size tube lines, that hook up to branchlines and free up mainline capacity.
I think that, in the future, London Overground lines, we have today, will have routes similar to Crossrail 2, and people will be talking about widening the old deep level tube tunnels, to allow the rest of the network to catch up.
Better still, build it to UIC standard!
The Paris R E R has double decker trains, twelve coaches long.
That really provides capacity for a growing number of passengers.
Pffft! British Rail had a patent for a flying saucer...
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_flying_saucer
🍻On the right track! Clever word-play always makes my day. Thank you!
This fanciful ‘Tale From Da Tube’ kept me occupied as I was waiting in my local ‘Subway’ diner/restaurant for some orders to clear. Really helped pass da time 🕰️.
When Liv St first opened there was a rail connection from platform 1 to the metropolitan line. I don't think it was ever used operationally, and the last traces of it were removed when liv St was rebuilt. Old liv St users may recall that platform 1 was much longer than its neighbours.
The only traces left are the filled in tunnel portal on the Met Lines. Used to be visible, on the west side of Liverpool St Met before recent works blocked it from view.
The fully built ‘Tale From Da Tube’ to Chingford, Enfield, Cheshunt and Palace Gates courtesy of Sir. Jago Hazzard!
Sounds very similar to Crossrail 2, which shows there's probably a strong case for building such a line.
Hasn't Crossrail 1 already paid for itself within a year of it opening? If that isn't more than enough reason to get the ball rolling on Crossrail 2 ASAP then idk what else would be...
@@lordgemini2376the rest if the country would kick off if that happened without other parts of the country getting an upgraded services.
Yes, CR2 would be useful. But have you tried travelling the equivalent distance (say between Abbey Wood and Heathrow) in the North? Its Overcrowded, old trains that if you are lucky happen once or twice an hour.
@@paintedpilgrim I notice you don't mention the huge trans-pennine route upgrade which is proceeding as I type.
@@timw.8452 almost the entirety of the work so far on that project has been located around Manchester, rather than where it's generally agreed that's it's more needed on the Yorkshire side of the link.
Manchester like London seems to get a larger share of any financing that comes the Norths way.
Where Sheffield and Leeds are only given money for smaller projects. Leeds has been turned down numerous times for transport projects,local rail travel in South Yorkshire is still on 50 year old trains, with signalling restricting increase of services, when longer trains and more frequent services are needed and have been needed for over 15 years.
@@paintedpilgrimWork has been going on between Leeds and Huddersfield, Stalybridge and Manchester, York to Leeds.
I think ultimately his idea (bar Palace Gates) was absolutely correct in identifying a demand for trains. Its just that building a tube line for most of it was unneeded. The Chingford-Liverpool Street - Enfield/Cheshunt loop as electrified overground worked perfectly well. The Victoria line filled the demand for those needing to get deeper into city then Liverpool Street. I'm super familiar with this as I've been using the Chingford-Liverpool Street line (and the Victoria via Walthamstow Central) for... 30 years of my 35 year life! Like all trains.... we moan and gripe about it, but it is ultimately fantastic compared to most places in the world.
For the automatic train operation on the Victoria line. looks like they were able to get that from New York City Times Square Grand Central Terminal shuttle before the fire that destroyed the automatic train operation there
One feels that the Chingford branch might have been usefully converted into a tube line; even the upper end might work as a Victoria Line extension. The service isn't really frequent enough. Quick quiz; which two adjacent suburban stations on a main line in London have no service between them at all? Answer; Clapton and Tottenham Hale, because the former is only served by Chingford branch trains. Means that local connectivity in the area isn't great. To connect, say, to Stansted Airport, you have to take a bus or walk to the reopened Lea Bridge.
Mr Jago, ar 4:40 you started to sound like”the book” from Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy. I’m surprised that the plans weren’t buried in peat for 3 months and recycled as fire-lighters! 😊
We'll just have to hope he doesn't go the whole H2G2 hog, and make the accompanying videos too fast to take in properly! (That's the TV series "book" I'm referring to, not the one in the less appealing 2005 movie.)
Going back few weeks ago. TfL wants to rename some of the London Overground lines from May next year but I don’t think it would be renamed and to have new colour schemes. And of course the proposed Crossrail 2 to be built that would extend to New Highgate and the proposed eastern extension to Epping taking over the Central Line.
Or to Chingford taking over the London Overground Chingford line via Dalston and Clapton. Or perhaps the Waterloo & City Line could of extend from Bank to Chingford and Enfield Town and from Waterloo to Putney and Richmond.
Would the Liverpool Street to Tottenham Court Road line really have run via Camden Town?! (3:10) That seems a huge deviation ... and it might have been far more useful to serve Kings Cross and Euston. Farringdon or Holborn sound much more sensible ... the former of course now being the Elizabeth Line route.
Been digging through the comments to find something thinking the same as me! Seems an odd route
I’d much rather ride a mainline train to Cheshunt than a tube train. I used to love the ride between Broxbourne and Liverpool Street, my favourite London terminus with its delightful electromechanical signboard. I’d need a time machine today.
Are my ears deceiving me? I could have sworn you said that the new tunnel through central London would run from Liverpool St through Camden Town, Tottenham Court Rd and Piccadilly Circus to Victoria.
_Camden Town???_ That sort of detour wouldn't make it a very effective express route!
So many opportunities missed. A bit like underground trains, there'll be another one along in a minute. 🤣🤣
do you agree that although post 1930 new lines have been hammered by bureaucracy that a lot of sensible decisions have been made from Yerkee's onwards and that most of the mistakes belong to the 19th Century?
Cracking video sir, did not know about the express tube line between Liverpool Street and Tottenham Court Road?
Along with the Victoria, I guess it's nice that this section of the Lea Valley Lines did eventually become a part of the Overground. In some small way the plan was realised. It's interesting that something like this was dreamt up; it definitely speaks to a newfound optimism for London's transport at the time.
5:53 Honestly, is this not part of why the Northern Line is somewhat infamous for issues in running it? It's by far the most complicated line and that absolutely has caused problems before. There is absolutely value in rapid transit lines like these, where trains might come every 2 minutes, being made streamlined and simple as a general rule; fewer branches and loops, and what not.
Great video!
I too was puzzled at 3:09 with the idea of running a tunnel from Liverpool St up to Camden and then back down to Tottenham Ct Rd an onwards to Victoria. The Liverpool St - TCR - Piccadilly Circus - Victoria makes sense, but that detour to Camden and turn around not so sure!
What “never built” line do you think would made the biggest difference & should be reconsidered?
I think the early versions of the Fleet Line could have changed East and South East London completely.
@@JagoHazzard If we "brought back" the Fleet Line, it could have the abandoned Charring Cross Station platforms, from the Jubilee Line and could maybe then go somewhere else (instead of via Paddington). Victoria, then Old Oak Common might be a way to fill the thing up from Day 1.
@@JagoHazzardNorthern Heights would have been nice, and the Bakerloo Line extension, if it ever happens.
Thanks
And thank you!
I noticed that your video ended at “ST JAMES STREET”. Has that station endured the same name spelling controversy as “ST JAMES’ / ST JAMES’S” station in central London?
Four termini on one end and two on the other? Sounds a bit like the District Line, with Seven Sisters as the new Earl's Court (more or less). Maybe it could have worked as two lines, one from Moorgate terminating at, for example, Enfield Town and Cheshunt, and one from Victoria to Palace Gates and Chingford. But that line from Moorgate to Palace Gates seems like a particularly big question mark... or maybe that's just how the map is drawn.
Do one please for Hall Farm Curve
Keep them going Jago
An interesting film record of the past is NORTH WOOLWICH to PALACE GATES steam train ride 1960 on the Alan Snowdon Archive channel (If I may be permitted to suggest this ?)
If I remember right, there was a wartime link built between Palace Gates and the main line, occasionally used by coal trains. Irrelevant, I know.
4:53 Hitchin? They were going to run deep-level tube stock 35 miles up the ECML, presumably from Finsbury Park?
Always fascinating, thanks. Are there any more plans afoot beyond Crossrail 2?
"He was 'on the right track.'"
...Because what would a Jago Hazzard video be without the obligatory Dad joke?
Splitting the Victoria at Victoria to go to Liverpool Street and Beyond looks it could have been sensible.
A second line, rather than a branch, would be the way to go. The 90 second railway plan, that the Victoria Line manager brought in was all about simplifying the railway as much as possible. They even had to get rid of the trains that turned back part-way up the route, as that was slowing things down a bit.
With hindsight, they should've kept it as Hoe Street. I see big tourist bucks potential... the t-shirt sales alone would pay for Crossrail 2!
"Flushed with success." Perhaps foreshadowing of a story of a different type of London underground?
Im sure I remember seeing direct trains between 7 sisters and stratford in the days of pre eurostar. Cannot find it anymore though? Did it suddenly close or is video to come on this....🤷♂️🙂
You could also put the expensive crouch endline between fins park and Highgate "as one that never happened"
An Alexandra palace station right at the top of that hill raises so many questions
You _might_ say "on the right track", but I couldn't possibly comment.
Can’t wait for AI Jago narration
1:44 There's no need to bring General Patton into this
What do you think of the naming of the lines next year?
He made a video about that subject 3 months ago: "Naming the Overground Lines, and why £4 million actually isn't that much".
He also made a video about doing the same for the DLR 2 weeks ago "Should the DLR lines get their own identities?".
@@f.g.9466 Not even needed to change names, just costs money, again TFL ideas, they cant even run a bath and Sadiq Khan cant run a tap
But jago, isn’t that just the overground?
I'm a decided fan of the Northern Heights scheme, which I mourn greatly, but this Chingford/Cheshunt-Victoria project sounds well overfangled. Luckily it got resolved more sensibly.
“This would take multiple other videos”
You just know that Jago has those ready 😂😂
'Relief route to my Central Line'
🤔
Paging Dr. Freud.
How would you run an "Express" train on a two-track underground line? Building "passing sidings" would require widening the tube's footprint. Switching the Express around slower trains on a two-track system would delay opposing trains. I would appreciate a video exploring how the Tube runs Express trains today.
Always been a bugbear of mine they busy Chingford in Waltham Forest has never been on the Tube.
Liverpool Street to Tottenham Court Road via Camden?? That seems a bit of detour. I can see why the Elizabeth Line just goes via Farringdon.
All the way to Hitchin? That would have been some journey!
5:00 Overground, Underground, Walthamstow Central …
To be fair, there is the Metropolitan Line/Jubilee Line "thing".
You should do the "Crane Line". Transport for London asked the historian Nicholas Crane to submit a proposal for a new tube line, more as a courtesy than anything else. Then Transport for London's top bods took a look at it. And they liked it. The proposal is still at Transport for London's head office, marked "For possible implementation"!
Wait, the route from Liverpool Street to Victoria was to be via Camden Town, Tottenham Court Road and Piccadilly Circus? That does not make any damn sense. Anyway within the context of the various southward Moorgate extensions of the Northern City (like say to Mansion House / Cannon Street, etc), how plausible would it have been to reroute mainline services to Liverpool Street onto a new route towards a Moorgate through station southwards similar to the 1913 Metropolitan scheme for a Northern City connection from Old Street to Liverpool Street?
I still think that Chingford and Enfield Town can still be part of the tube. Extend the Jubilee and Piccadilly lines in two stages!
Extending the Jubilee at Stratford is extremely difficult (and expensive) since no provisions were made for a future extension. Apart from going through a hall and ending up in Westfield, the passenger flows through the station are already a nightmare and would become even worse.
@@f.g.9466 Not really, If it goes to Clapton and surfaces near the junction, it won't be that difficult!
@@Tonydjjokerit you lost me there, what junction?? I'm talking about Stratford station, are you familiar with the station, the location of the Jubilee platforms, the halls in front of them, the buildings ahead in that direction, and the passenger flows through the station?
@@f.g.9466 I'm talking about Clacton. If you drill under Stratford then this will solve the problem.
@@Tonydjjokerit if you drill under Stratford where do you join the current track of the Jubilee?
Must have been an Arsenal home game on when he shot this 🤔
If this is praise for the London Passenger Transport Board era 1933-1947, and beyond, and the Overground, long may it be heaped.
Very good 🙂🚂🚂🚂
Isn't crossrail 2 ultimately going to do something similar too?
(6.07) Turkey Street, is that overground or now part of the "EL".
That’s Overground.
I never heard of it!
So, to summarise, the minutes of the meeting went like this. "Good morning. We have money to extend. Where do you want to go?" "Chingford, Cheshunt and Palace Gales." "We have no money to extend. See you in the next meeting."
As a local resident on this imaginary line that was never to be, makes me sad to think what could have been. The current 2tph on the Cheshunt route and even Greater Anglia's routes is quite annoying, having to plan what time to leave, and from which station, every time I take a train into Central London. No "turn up and go" fanciness here 🙁 When Crossrail 2 got shelved, that was another moment of utter sadness from me.
did i see on that closing statement a station sign saying " turkey street "???? 6.08
You did. Maybe a subject for a Christmas special?
As a long-time commuter on the chingford line I know that electrification (I can remember that happening!) and coming under TfL were the two best things that ever happened to it. I can't imagine that joining it to the underground could ever work; sounds like something BoJo might have dreamt up
Yet another North London line. Yes we need d that.
The lines were already there.
Did you see those seats at 6:08? Why those colours and that pattern? Maybe you could investigate the history of underground train's upholstery for us, Jago!
Someone on another site once commented that if you look at that pattern and allow your eyes to go out of focus, a 3-D image of the LT roundel will appear. Like those "Magic Eye" books that were so popular once upon a time.
they seem to have spent far more time and money debating and planning things than they every spent on actually constructing
plus ça change
Very interesting video 2x👍
Angel Road now Meridian Water
Everything rail must be a grid to be effective
01:33 That isn't an N7, is it? The boiler looks too small, to me. I thought only N7s went to Chingford.
That's a Great Eastern 0-4-4T of some description
@@AndreiTupolev
Yes, definitely not, then. It must a very old photo, I think. Cheers ;)
Jago, your opinion on Melbourne?
Jago generally doesn't do South of Morden, Maidstone might be tolerable but Melbourne would be pushing it.
He would have to do a course in Vlocity, Xtrapolis, Harris cars and N stock, not to mention Myki and regional fast rail and grade separated crossings.
Other, gone to nowhere tales, please
This must be the only tube video that does not mention Yerkes.
Aw Tony, did you HAVE to?😡