In my experience, recordings determine quite a bit. My stereo is in one position and the only adjustments to it while listening, is volume. Some recordings sound as if they're outside of the room, fill the room, expand the room, etc. If someone isn't getting any of that, it may be their speaker setup or listening position.
To achieve height on your speakers; Tweak the height of the speaker so that; vocalists stand in front of you when you listen (your eyes closed). Anything recorded 'higher'then the vocalist should be heard on top of the vocalist. Also diffusion on the first reflection points of the ceiling will improve that significantly.
Great explanation. Floors and ground are usually the closest most reflective thing to us. The brain can be very good at picking up subtle delays and frequencies.
I think the vertical height of your speakers can drastically affect the stereo image/soundstage. On my 3-way Infinity Kappa 7.1's, I like to have the midrange even with my ears at seated height with the tweeters slightly above my ears. So I have them sitting on about 5" stands to achieve that height. I also made special 21" stands for my Dahlquist DQ-10's so they sit at ear height as well.
The vertical height is determined entirely by the position of the tweeters (and maybe midranges if they are present) since they carry the spatial cues. Simply, they set where the soundstage originates perceptually.
As far as height itself, that is actually an illusion created by the limited resolving ability of the auditory center with respect to elevation. Not a bad thing or all the instruments would be in a line like headphones.
@@mysock351C unless of course your speaker tweeter perform better off axis (vertically). The same reason some people don't like to point their speakers in towards the listener and leave the speaker facing straight ahead.
Yes Jim, that method of driver placement in relation to your ears is what I really prefer also. It just seems to produce the most "3- dimensional" image and soundstage that way.
Paul, I think 4:58 was the first time I literally laughed at one of your videos. Your dedication to explaining your point is unmatched. Thanks for going the extra mile.
I imported 7 pairs of different models ESS speakers in 1995 and kept one pair of AMT 1D's for myself. My old Beomaster 3000-2 did not have enough umphh for those 2 monsters and I looked for more powerful amplification. I first got a NAD 214/216 combo but it did not sit well, so I got hold of a Valve Audio "Black Widow" hybrid tube power amp and borrowed a Sonic Frontiers SFL1 pre-amp....what a difference.!!! The NAD combo sounded like mono....no soundstage whatsoever. The hybrid combo opened up like magic, a huge deep and wide soundstage like a circus.!!! My first test was with the EMI set of records of "Die Fledermaus" with Anneliese Rothenberger, the main soprano. The imaging on that recording was incredible. The Proprius CD Antiphone Blues(saxophone snd pipe organ), just as good with the sax playing high, just off the centre to the right and the organ surrounding the front of the room. I could not believe that was possible with 2 different power amps. Needless to say, I kept the Black Widow, had my Beomaster 3000-2 modified with pre-amp out sockets as temporary pre and waited 4 years for the SFL1 to be released from liquidation stock(at a quarter of the original price) and that is the combination I still use today.
when you finally do hit that holographic soundstage with full tangible depth, and width out past the now invisible speakers, it's a truly breathtaking thing.
Paul, congrats! Great piece of knowledge! Great and easy way of shareing knowledge. But as I'm owning just a streamer, CD way set up will be not possible by me. Is there any chance to get on-line version of Step by Step Set-up
I think you're right about frequency and height. I once made a ringer from a recording of a hummingbird that I had. I had recorded the original in 24 bits at 192kh, but sampled it for the ringer using a spectrographic be view. I noticed that most of the bird's audio was between 4kh and 7kh, so I just sampled those frequencies. Even though the ringer was a much lower sample rate it came out great, but when you play the thing it always sounds like it's overhead. Even if I'm looking down at the phone In my lap! I was amazed.
Thanks Paul , I’ve just experienced this and mine was attributed to the amp I use making the difference . My accuphase P300 amp creates the holographic sound and when I sent it in for service I had to use my Yamaha MX-1 amp , the Yamaha sounds good but lacked any kind of depth or say that holographic sound . We just got the accuphase back yesterday and I’m back to happy town listening with music that sounds like it’s floating around in space instead of just sound coming from the left or right .
When your music comes from left and right either your speaker placement is dumb or your speakers are crap - just because a crap amplifier with distortion masks it don't solve the problem
Speaker quality and placement makes a big difference. My Ohm Walsh speakers (which work best close to the wall behind them ) have been praised for the width depth and height of the sound with the speakers disappearing . Their tweeters point toward the center of the room and up which helps with the height of the sound they project.
No one home but you, late at night darkness, favorite whisky in hand, favorite music playing, warmth of a log fire burning in the hearth. Sound stage improved 100%.
I already knew that's what you were going to (have to) be talking about in this video topic, as me myself improving, designing or redesigning, and building MANY speakers over the decades, I have noticed that exact thing; as the tweeters/treble is more detailed and "airy", and it has a smoother and more complete >10KHz and higher frequency response, the overall speaker system as a whole seems to have better "height" definition between different instruments and vocals, and I discovered years ago that the "height" dimension most definitely CAN be acheived utilizing extremely good mids and tweeter drivers and associated crossover components, (and NO, you DON'T actually NEED "Dolby Atmos", OR totally separate "height" speakers in your setup in order to acheive the (agreed) height ILLUSION in the stereo image), but all that you truly DO need in order to acheive that is really great sound quality speakers with excellent tweeters and associated treble detail, (having the same level of detail from the mids is helpful to the overall stereo image too of course, but most importantly, having that detail from the tweeters especially, is absolutely essential), in order to acheive that "height" dimension illusion... Unfortunately not very many "normal level" "stock" speakers can ever properly display this height illusion, mainly and usually due to tweeter mounting flange edge and front baffle diffractions and reflections, crappy grills that "mask" the sound with a "veil", and especially due to most "ordinary" quality level speakers using really cheap quality crossover capacitors in most cases. (especially if they are using electrolytic capacitors, as those are pretty much total garbage for sound quality!) BTW, I really like the description of your new book about "the speaker" specifically, as having really awesome speakers is most definitely the MOST important, "first step" to achieving truly great sound quality from your stereo/audio/video system! It sounds to me like I maybe could've added some valuable ideas and info to your book on that topic!... Although as far as the more "technical" side of things go with speakers, that's what you have Chris Brunhaver for, right? (I will be sure to request to have a few hour long discussion with him on various speaker topics if I ever get to come up to Colorado and visit your headquarters! I would love that!) Anyway, it sounds like I just might have to get your second book too, especially if I come to visit your plant, as I'm sure your new book has plenty of greatly valuable info and additional insight to add to my existing knowledge of speakers!
Hey thanks for another great video just wondering have you or anyone around you in the recording business notice that a lot of recordings are biased to the left?
There's a YT video out there ("The Art Of Mixing (A Arte da Mixagem) - David Gibson") that goes into great detail, like over 2.5 hours of detail, about Mixing. Even though it's long, it's worth watching especially the first hour(?). It is quite entertaining but it does also get quite technical - mixing wise (which is also interesting stuff to be aware of). In any case David covers most of the imaging fundamentals up front and, at about the 20 minute mark, says the speakers' ceiling is limited to the height of the top of the speakers but goes down to the floor (due to the base). He says, control of the height is via the frequency (not very convincing to me but there you go, maybe I've an overly active imagination?).
There is one famous example of a loudspeaker with the tweeter located at the bottom: the Dynaudio Consequence. This speaker was considered a reference at the time it was sold. Unfortunately I never had the chance to listen to them.
I have those SAME speakers on that desk lol. Now, if your talking height, I can add that Martin Logan has that off to a tee for any number of reasons. My dealer just opened a HUGE full range audio shop with three dedicated, isolated listening spaces (the min-splits are behind the listener area on the rear wall). One room has the Martin Logan NEOLITH flagship!, I will be spending a day there, it's like going to an audio show!
I have my Elac Carinas dialed in pretty well (speakers appear to be off while behind them is magnificent) however the vocals sound as if one foot from floor. Any advice? I took the spikes off the back to lean them back with some improvement.
Discovered it with a complete hack of a system in a small room as a teenager, transparent speakers. Small pair of jamo's i think. Fiarly sure i had coathangers for one of the interconnects 🤣 Spent hours playing with the stereo image as it was so tuneable
Makes sense. One more consideration- look to nature and we have certain species of owls that have tremendous depth perception in their hearing. It turns out, they have one ear slightly higher than the other. This allows for not only left right information but up down too. As we move our heads - tweeter is up and woofer is down - I think we perceive it too.
height can come from a binaural frequency response effect. our ear shape results in different sound coloring depending on if a sound comes from below, above , in fron or behind us. this coloring can be baked into a sound coming from the front like a stereo system, and teh result gives height and proximity. this way a mono recording can have height and proximity to, with echo giving lateral proximity. only the left right diffferenciation is missing. i have an old recording of elvis jailhouse rock in mono, when played back it is nearly as spaceous as stereo. witha small trick of boosting the trebble on one speaker and boosting the bass on the other there is a fake stereo seperation, with elvis in the center.
I remember some speakers that were known for great imaging. They were the Spica TC-50. Image was very wide but height sounded like it was no more than 1 inch.
I had recently acquired a pair of Polk SDA-1C and it is producing soundstage that my old DCM simple cannot even imagine of thinking to recreate. I had a session to compare back to back with two album, Diana Krall "The Girl in the Other Room" and Pink Floyd "Dark Side of the Moon" on both CD and 33 1/2. While there are tonal difference with the piano hammer and jazz guitar in the Krall's album between the CD and LP; the width and height on the LP of Dark Side is so much bigger than the CD. Granted, the CD is the latest 2011 remastering, but I assumed the latest edition of the LP uses the same remaster. I always believed that digital contains much greater details of data than a vinyl records could ever hold, but this was the first time that it makes me think, "are records do sound better?" Cool old Hong Kong bills in the work space by the way.
I think you are right and it has something in common with what Paul said that it is a game of phases. Our ear shell is build in a way it reconizes change of phase and show us physical height of source. It is by reflections inside which are affecting the spectrum . If such phase shift is incorporated in recording it could be adequately recognized by ear. Mystery for me is how it is created in recording. Interestingly usualy I do not hear it in solist solo studio recordings - sibilants sound just stright in front But in lot other instruments they can come from up and down and back and ahead For me LP vinyl has true phase/frequency information If it is copyed stright to CD then for me both are equal With digital mixing or mastering I doubt if it preserves original detalis of phases I do not expect it is created by positioning of tweeter because actually I use only single common driver for all and it creates virtually sopranos in surprising way even up to celing so it must be in recordings but surely not in all. There is another factor - in room damping of sopranos prevail in lower half of room and less where are flat walls and ceiling may be it causes that we hear virtual source of sopranos like amplified with height. Because it never shows opposite way.
It's interesting how our brains have evolved from Caveman days to a modern manipulation into our "Mancave" days where we're trying to reprogram them for the illusion found in our entertainment, instead of self preservation from being eaten or finding our food. 🐅 🥥🍖😂 But anyway, height seems to be purposely mixed in, or inadvertently mixed in. Live recordings have mics around the venue and stage that capture some of these effects of the singer, instruments, space, and audience. As you have said is also done in the studio by mic positioning. This all gets mixed in. In my case I have Sopra No 3s in a room with roughly 12 foot vaulted ceilings, and man I get the sense of hight there. But the quality of my electronics I have learned brings the effects out more too as I found when I upgraded them. Yes first it's the speaker placement, but if the CD player, preamp, and etc aren't capable of presenting the info to the speakers then it won't be there. As a side note I don't know if height is what reviewers interpret as air?🤔 But in our family room we have Kanta No 2's with 9 ft ceilings and an open concept layout where the family room is open to the breakfast area and kitchen. There the sound has more lateral dispersion and less height and depth because the speakers are only 3ft way from the front wall because it's a living space with furniture and you know a family. If not I'd be murdered. Lol The highs still sparkle but not like the Sopras in the vaulted ceiling room and both have a Beryllium tweeters, but in different executions. It's still a large room but not like where the Kantas are. When we listen to Freya Ridings Live at St. Pancras Old Church on the two systems, both are enjoyable, but the height of the venue can be distinguished and appreciated more so along with other aspects of the sound stage in the room with the vaulted ceilings. And honestly the recording is okay and I say this with a grain of salt because I can tell it wasn't mixed evenly. On some tracks her voice is more prominent. Maybe it changed based on how close or farther away she was from her vocal microphone, or they just winged it. Nonetheless still a wonderful recording that my caveman brain allows my "Mancave" brain and heart to enjoy. 😘
I own dynaudio confidence 5s and they have the best imaging and height. I also have evidence at another home and they make big sound but confidence 5 were the best . The 5s just had no bass below 45 hz…
Positioning a pair of dbx Soundfield 1a's and tweaking the phase-shifting crossover control that comes with them, can produce a startlingly wide soundstage. It is nowhere near "purist" ...but it is fun!
Its sad that as measurements get better the soundstage gets worse. On book shelf speakers the best image height I heard was on a modded pair of Totem Mani 2s. The room was heavily treated and they added the McShane ambience recovery concept to it. And Maggies.
Some recordings place mics hanging from the ceiling. When placed within a relatively reverberant acoustic,there will be phase delays relative to the source of direct information.This can come from multiple reflective sources within the environment and the choice of microphones contribute to this aswell. A degree of phase trickery may be deployed by the engineer to help to create some of this effect. How well the system recovers this information is key to uncoding the message for the listener and reproducing the effect within the home.
@@maxcavalera8434 Hi Max. I own Roger Waters' "Amused to death " .Sting's "The soul cages" is another .I was bought the Sting album years ago and find it a little patchy musically,although I like the Waters album all the way through. Some of the Living stereo recordings supposedly used pipes around the microphones in an effort to produce a more direct ,sharply focussed image. Speaker polar response is similar in this respect, some with narrower "beaming" and others much broader,which brings the effect of the room into the equation more at higher frequencies.
There are some great studies on how the brains and our expectations alter and filter sound. I suspect that if you have great speakers set up, with a good 2 channel 2 speaker sound stage, that there is nothing in the stereo image that could make the guitar seem to be below the vocals or the drums to be above them. That is your brain at work, placing your expectations into the mix. Heck...just make a recording of your voice, sitting in the room where you are, and then play it back. You will discover the recording has all kinds of sounds you weren't hearing when you recorded it. Air conditioning, fans, the refrigerator, traffic, all kinds of stuff. Your brain filters much of them out.
Height 'perception' in a recording is achieved with reverb....many instances the reverb is barely perceivable. I see several comments here referencing mixing and recording engineering.
@@geddylee501 I leave the speakers where they are and dig a 1.3m trench in my lounge room for my couch to slide in. Dont forget to remove the legs on your coffee table.
Sorry Paul, must correct your geography. Belfast is the capital of Northern Ireland. The capital of Ireland (The Republic of Ireland if you prefer) is Dublin.
Until ya hear it ya won't understand, most people will never experience it , most of us "Boomers " have ALL heard it but don't remember , because of the crap that's been pushed on us ,/ disposed of our good systems for crap , & nowone understands unless they come over and hear your system And then they remember, & how many people are you going to entertain? I've given up making converts ,got my few and we enjoy each other's systems
Hi Paul, it seems you start to loose some memories of the 80´s when you say that "you have never seen a speaker with the tweeter down below". Take for example the Dynaudio Consequence which had the tweeter down and the bass on top, like a "normal" speaker turned upside down. Just sayin...
ROTFLMAO!!! 1:25 It is obvious by this explanation that indeed Paul's "brain ain't workin all that well". That part where he talks about how the frequencies change as you get closer to the floor, and how the higher frequencies are higher in the room. I laughed so hard when I heard that!. Then that part about how higher frequencies are recorded higher in the recording studio. Sure that's why recording studios record pianos sitting on their sides with the higher keys pointed toward the ceiling and hang cymbals from the ceiling. OMG!!! That is just too funny. There are plenty of videos on UA-cam that show how recording engineers manage to create soundscapes while keeping all the instruments on the ground. There are also plenty of videos that will explain the difference between binaural and stereo recordings, as well. If you want to have a good laugh then watch this video, otherwise if you actually take this stuff seriously then you might want to do some research on the topic.
In my experience, recordings determine quite a bit. My stereo is in one position and the only adjustments to it while listening, is volume. Some recordings sound as if they're outside of the room, fill the room, expand the room, etc. If someone isn't getting any of that, it may be their speaker setup or listening position.
Just lay down on the floor while listening to your stereo. That will give you height
stereo soundstage.
Your videos are a few minutes of respite from the mad, mad world outside. Thanks for the hard work
To achieve height on your speakers; Tweak the height of the speaker so that; vocalists stand in front of you when you listen (your eyes closed). Anything recorded 'higher'then the vocalist should be heard on top of the vocalist.
Also diffusion on the first reflection points of the ceiling will improve that significantly.
Great explanation. Floors and ground are usually the closest most reflective thing to us. The brain can be very good at picking up subtle delays and frequencies.
I think the vertical height of your speakers can drastically affect the stereo image/soundstage. On my 3-way Infinity Kappa 7.1's, I like to have the midrange even with my ears at seated height with the tweeters slightly above my ears. So I have them sitting on about 5" stands to achieve that height. I also made special 21" stands for my Dahlquist DQ-10's so they sit at ear height as well.
The vertical height is determined entirely by the position of the tweeters (and maybe midranges if they are present) since they carry the spatial cues. Simply, they set where the soundstage originates perceptually.
As far as height itself, that is actually an illusion created by the limited resolving ability of the auditory center with respect to elevation. Not a bad thing or all the instruments would be in a line like headphones.
@@mysock351C unless of course your speaker tweeter perform better off axis (vertically). The same reason some people don't like to point their speakers in towards the listener and leave the speaker facing straight ahead.
Yes Jim, that method of driver placement in relation to your ears is what I really prefer also. It just seems to produce the most "3- dimensional" image and soundstage that way.
Paul, I think 4:58 was the first time I literally laughed at one of your videos. Your dedication to explaining your point is unmatched. Thanks for going the extra mile.
Loved it too. It's so great that he's willing to demonstrate his points 😀
I imported 7 pairs of different models ESS speakers in 1995 and kept one pair of AMT 1D's for myself. My old Beomaster 3000-2 did not have enough umphh for those 2 monsters and I looked for more powerful amplification. I first got a NAD 214/216 combo but it did not sit well, so I got hold of a Valve Audio "Black Widow" hybrid tube power amp and borrowed a Sonic Frontiers SFL1 pre-amp....what a difference.!!! The NAD combo sounded like mono....no soundstage whatsoever. The hybrid combo opened up like magic, a huge deep and wide soundstage like a circus.!!! My first test was with the EMI set of records of "Die Fledermaus" with Anneliese Rothenberger, the main soprano. The imaging on that recording was incredible. The Proprius CD Antiphone Blues(saxophone snd pipe organ), just as good with the sax playing high, just off the centre to the right and the organ surrounding the front of the room. I could not believe that was possible with 2 different power amps. Needless to say, I kept the Black Widow, had my Beomaster 3000-2 modified with pre-amp out sockets as temporary pre and waited 4 years for the SFL1 to be released from liquidation stock(at a quarter of the original price) and that is the combination I still use today.
when you finally do hit that holographic soundstage with full tangible depth, and width out past the now invisible speakers, it's a truly breathtaking thing.
Paul, congrats! Great piece of knowledge! Great and easy way of shareing knowledge. But as I'm owning just a streamer, CD way set up will be not possible by me. Is there any chance to get on-line version of Step by Step Set-up
I think you're right about frequency and height. I once made a ringer from a recording of a hummingbird that I had. I had recorded the original in 24 bits at 192kh, but sampled it for the ringer using a spectrographic be view.
I noticed that most of the bird's audio was between 4kh and 7kh, so I just sampled those frequencies. Even though the ringer was a much lower sample rate it came out great, but when you play the thing it always sounds like it's overhead. Even if I'm looking down at the phone In my lap! I was amazed.
Thanks Paul , I’ve just experienced this and mine was attributed to the amp I use making the difference . My accuphase P300 amp creates the holographic sound and when I sent it in for service I had to use my Yamaha MX-1 amp , the Yamaha sounds good but lacked any kind of depth or say that holographic sound . We just got the accuphase back yesterday and I’m back to happy town listening with music that sounds like it’s floating around in space instead of just sound coming from the left or right .
When your music comes from left and right either your speaker placement is dumb or your speakers are crap - just because a crap amplifier with distortion masks it don't solve the problem
Speaker quality and placement makes a big difference. My Ohm Walsh speakers (which work best close to the wall behind them ) have been praised for the width depth and height of the sound with the speakers disappearing . Their tweeters point toward the center of the room and up which helps with the height of the sound they project.
No one home but you, late at night darkness, favorite whisky in hand, favorite music playing, warmth of a log fire burning in the hearth. Sound stage improved 100%.
I already knew that's what you were going to (have to) be talking about in this video topic, as me myself improving, designing or redesigning, and building MANY speakers over the decades, I have noticed that exact thing; as the tweeters/treble is more detailed and "airy", and it has a smoother and more complete >10KHz and higher frequency response, the overall speaker system as a whole seems to have better "height" definition between different instruments and vocals, and I discovered years ago that the "height" dimension most definitely CAN be acheived utilizing extremely good mids and tweeter drivers and associated crossover components, (and NO, you DON'T actually NEED "Dolby Atmos", OR totally separate "height" speakers in your setup in order to acheive the (agreed) height ILLUSION in the stereo image), but all that you truly DO need in order to acheive that is really great sound quality speakers with excellent tweeters and associated treble detail, (having the same level of detail from the mids is helpful to the overall stereo image too of course, but most importantly, having that detail from the tweeters especially, is absolutely essential), in order to acheive that "height" dimension illusion...
Unfortunately not very many "normal level" "stock" speakers can ever properly display this height illusion, mainly and usually due to tweeter mounting flange edge and front baffle diffractions and reflections, crappy grills that "mask" the sound with a "veil", and especially due to most "ordinary" quality level speakers using really cheap quality crossover capacitors in most cases. (especially if they are using electrolytic capacitors, as those are pretty much total garbage for sound quality!)
BTW, I really like the description of your new book about "the speaker" specifically, as having really awesome speakers is most definitely the MOST important, "first step" to achieving truly great sound quality from your stereo/audio/video system! It sounds to me like I maybe could've added some valuable ideas and info to your book on that topic!... Although as far as the more "technical" side of things go with speakers, that's what you have Chris Brunhaver for, right? (I will be sure to request to have a few hour long discussion with him on various speaker topics if I ever get to come up to Colorado and visit your headquarters! I would love that!)
Anyway, it sounds like I just might have to get your second book too, especially if I come to visit your plant, as I'm sure your new book has plenty of greatly valuable info and additional insight to add to my existing knowledge of speakers!
Hey thanks for another great video just wondering have you or anyone around you in the recording business notice that a lot of recordings are biased to the left?
There's a YT video out there ("The Art Of Mixing (A Arte da Mixagem) - David Gibson") that goes into great detail, like over 2.5 hours of detail, about Mixing. Even though it's long, it's worth watching especially the first hour(?). It is quite entertaining but it does also get quite technical - mixing wise (which is also interesting stuff to be aware of).
In any case David covers most of the imaging fundamentals up front and, at about the 20 minute mark, says the speakers' ceiling is limited to the height of the top of the speakers but goes down to the floor (due to the base). He says, control of the height is via the frequency (not very convincing to me but there you go, maybe I've an overly active imagination?).
There is one famous example of a loudspeaker with the tweeter located at the bottom: the Dynaudio Consequence. This speaker was considered a reference at the time it was sold. Unfortunately I never had the chance to listen to them.
Thank u Paul
I have those SAME speakers on that desk lol.
Now, if your talking height, I can add that Martin Logan has that off to a tee for any number of reasons. My dealer just opened a HUGE full range audio shop with three dedicated, isolated listening spaces (the min-splits are behind the listener area on the rear wall).
One room has the Martin Logan NEOLITH flagship!, I will be spending a day there, it's like going to an audio show!
I have my Elac Carinas dialed in pretty well (speakers appear to be off while behind them is magnificent) however the vocals sound as if one foot from floor. Any advice? I took the spikes off the back to lean them back with some improvement.
Discovered it with a complete hack of a system in a small room as a teenager, transparent speakers. Small pair of jamo's i think. Fiarly sure i had coathangers for one of the interconnects 🤣 Spent hours playing with the stereo image as it was so tuneable
Only hifi can get us to crawl on the floor and stand on chairs talking to ourselves 😂
The Dynaudio Consequence is a five way speaker with the woofer at the top and tweeter at the bottom.
Makes sense. One more consideration- look to nature and we have certain species of owls that have tremendous depth perception in their hearing. It turns out, they have one ear slightly higher than the other. This allows for not only left right information but up down too. As we move our heads - tweeter is up and woofer is down - I think we perceive it too.
height can come from a binaural frequency response effect. our ear shape results in different sound coloring depending on if a sound comes from below, above , in fron or behind us. this coloring can be baked into a sound coming from the front like a stereo system, and teh result gives height and proximity.
this way a mono recording can have height and proximity to, with echo giving lateral proximity. only the left right diffferenciation is missing.
i have an old recording of elvis jailhouse rock in mono, when played back it is nearly as spaceous as stereo. witha small trick of boosting the trebble on one speaker and boosting the bass on the other there is a fake stereo seperation, with elvis in the center.
The nearer you can get your tweeters and mids equidistant from the floor and ceiling the better the results.
I remember some speakers that were known for great imaging. They were the Spica TC-50. Image was very wide but height sounded like it was no more than 1 inch.
I had recently acquired a pair of Polk SDA-1C and it is producing soundstage that my old DCM simple cannot even imagine of thinking to recreate. I had a session to compare back to back with two album, Diana Krall "The Girl in the Other Room" and Pink Floyd "Dark Side of the Moon" on both CD and 33 1/2. While there are tonal difference with the piano hammer and jazz guitar in the Krall's album between the CD and LP; the width and height on the LP of Dark Side is so much bigger than the CD. Granted, the CD is the latest 2011 remastering, but I assumed the latest edition of the LP uses the same remaster. I always believed that digital contains much greater details of data than a vinyl records could ever hold, but this was the first time that it makes me think, "are records do sound better?"
Cool old Hong Kong bills in the work space by the way.
I think you are right and it has something in common with what Paul said that it is a game of phases.
Our ear shell is build in a way it reconizes change of phase and show us physical height of source. It is by reflections inside which are affecting the spectrum . If such phase shift is incorporated in recording it could be adequately recognized by ear.
Mystery for me is how it is created in recording. Interestingly usualy I do not hear it in solist solo studio recordings - sibilants sound just stright in front But in lot other instruments they can come from up and down and back and ahead
For me LP vinyl has true phase/frequency information If it is copyed stright to CD then for me both are equal With digital mixing or mastering I doubt if it preserves original detalis of phases
I do not expect it is created by positioning of tweeter because actually I use only single common driver for all and it creates virtually sopranos in surprising way even up to celing so it must be in recordings but surely not in all.
There is another factor - in room damping of sopranos prevail in lower half of room and less where are flat walls and ceiling may be it causes that we hear virtual source of sopranos like amplified with height. Because it never shows opposite way.
Thanks!
As a matter of Consequence, would the Dynaudio's not be perfect for music listening while practicing inversion therapy?
My wife still thinks I’m crazy, so the system is focused on me. 🤗
Me too - LMAO
Where can i find more info about part two of the audiophile's guide?
It's interesting how our brains have evolved from Caveman days to a modern manipulation into our "Mancave" days where we're trying to reprogram them for the illusion found in our entertainment, instead of self preservation from being eaten or finding our food. 🐅 🥥🍖😂
But anyway, height seems to be purposely mixed in, or inadvertently mixed in. Live recordings have mics around the venue and stage that capture some of these effects of the singer, instruments, space, and audience. As you have said is also done in the studio by mic positioning. This all gets mixed in. In my case I have Sopra No 3s in a room with roughly 12 foot vaulted ceilings, and man I get the sense of hight there. But the quality of my electronics I have learned brings the effects out more too as I found when I upgraded them. Yes first it's the speaker placement, but if the CD player, preamp, and etc aren't capable of presenting the info to the speakers then it won't be there. As a side note I don't know if height is what reviewers interpret as air?🤔 But in our family room we have Kanta No 2's with 9 ft ceilings and an open concept layout where the family room is open to the breakfast area and kitchen. There the sound has more lateral dispersion and less height and depth because the speakers are only 3ft way from the front wall because it's a living space with furniture and you know a family. If not I'd be murdered. Lol The highs still sparkle but not like the Sopras in the vaulted ceiling room and both have a Beryllium tweeters, but in different executions. It's still a large room but not like where the Kantas are. When we listen to Freya Ridings Live at St. Pancras Old Church on the two systems, both are enjoyable, but the height of the venue can be distinguished and appreciated more so along with other aspects of the sound stage in the room with the vaulted ceilings. And honestly the recording is okay and I say this with a grain of salt because I can tell it wasn't mixed evenly. On some tracks her voice is more prominent. Maybe it changed based on how close or farther away she was from her vocal microphone, or they just winged it. Nonetheless still a wonderful recording that my caveman brain allows my "Mancave" brain and heart to enjoy. 😘
I own dynaudio confidence 5s and they have the best imaging and height. I also have evidence at another home and they make big sound but confidence 5 were the best . The 5s just had no bass below 45 hz…
the thing is paul. your telling the truth..
Thanks Sir for the info
Positioning a pair of dbx Soundfield 1a's and tweaking the phase-shifting crossover control that comes with them, can produce a startlingly wide soundstage. It is nowhere near "purist" ...but it is fun!
Spacial balance.
Belfast, Ireland 🧐
Its sad that as measurements get better the soundstage gets worse. On book shelf speakers the best image height I heard was on a modded pair of Totem Mani 2s. The room was heavily treated and they added the McShane ambience recovery concept to it. And Maggies.
Tweeter at the bottom: JBL 4310 studio monitors. Granted, they were designed to be placed high off the floor.
I know exactly what you are talking about paul !!
Some recordings place mics hanging from the ceiling. When placed within a relatively reverberant acoustic,there will be phase delays relative to the source of direct information.This can come from multiple reflective sources within the environment and the choice of microphones contribute to this aswell. A degree of phase trickery may be deployed by the engineer to help to create some of this effect. How well the system recovers this information is key to uncoding the message for the listener and reproducing the effect within the home.
In short. Listen to Rodger waters amused to death. Q sound is what your trying to explain.
@@maxcavalera8434 Hi Max. I own Roger Waters' "Amused to death " .Sting's "The soul cages" is another .I was bought the Sting album years ago and find it a little patchy musically,although I like the Waters album all the way through. Some of the Living stereo recordings supposedly used pipes around the microphones in an effort to produce a more direct ,sharply focussed image. Speaker polar response is similar in this respect, some with narrower "beaming" and others much broader,which brings the effect of the room into the equation more at higher frequencies.
There are some great studies on how the brains and our expectations alter and filter sound. I suspect that if you have great speakers set up, with a good 2 channel 2 speaker sound stage, that there is nothing in the stereo image that could make the guitar seem to be below the vocals or the drums to be above them. That is your brain at work, placing your expectations into the mix.
Heck...just make a recording of your voice, sitting in the room where you are, and then play it back. You will discover the recording has all kinds of sounds you weren't hearing when you recorded it. Air conditioning, fans, the refrigerator, traffic, all kinds of stuff. Your brain filters much of them out.
Now I understood what imaging means in English
Height 'perception' in a recording is achieved with reverb....many instances the reverb is barely perceivable. I see several comments here referencing mixing and recording engineering.
my ar m1s have the rweeter at the bottom.
It's Magic
3D audio is much better than stereo
Stereo can do 3D - it depends on instruments but some harmonics in low range fill room around listener as instrument wraps listener
one wat to get a taller image is simply get a pair of one of the taller models made by magnapan
The only real way to listen is by having tall like source open baffle arrays ( like the IRSV system ...
Rake the speakers
8khz
Lol it called hight speakers lol I'm referring to atmos sound
Put the speakers on the coffee table?
And where to put the coffee ? :)
@@geddylee501
I leave the speakers where they are and dig a 1.3m trench in my lounge room for my couch to slide in.
Dont forget to remove the legs on your coffee table.
@@PetraKann lol
one way,i meant
Sorry Paul, must correct your geography. Belfast is the capital of Northern Ireland. The capital of Ireland (The Republic of Ireland if you prefer) is Dublin.
Until ya hear it ya won't understand, most people will never experience it , most of us "Boomers " have ALL heard it but don't remember , because of the crap that's been pushed on us ,/ disposed of our good systems for crap , & nowone understands unless they come over and hear your system And then they remember, & how many people are you going to entertain? I've given up making converts ,got my few and we enjoy each other's systems
Hi Paul, it seems you start to loose some memories of the 80´s when you say that "you have never seen a speaker with the tweeter down below". Take for example the Dynaudio Consequence which had the tweeter down and the bass on top, like a "normal" speaker turned upside down. Just sayin...
ROTFLMAO!!!
1:25 It is obvious by this explanation that indeed Paul's "brain ain't workin all that well".
That part where he talks about how the frequencies change as you get closer to the floor, and how the higher frequencies are higher in the room.
I laughed so hard when I heard that!.
Then that part about how higher frequencies are recorded higher in the recording studio.
Sure that's why recording studios record pianos sitting on their sides with the higher keys pointed toward the ceiling and hang cymbals from the ceiling.
OMG!!! That is just too funny.
There are plenty of videos on UA-cam that show how recording engineers manage to create soundscapes while keeping all the instruments on the ground.
There are also plenty of videos that will explain the difference between binaural and stereo recordings, as well.
If you want to have a good laugh then watch this video, otherwise if you actually take this stuff seriously then you might want to do some research on the topic.
Stereo image.
2nd! daaamn it I hate you Roderick! XD
Ah SECOND, congratulations on this performance you get 🥈🏆🍾🥂👏🇺🇸 You were fast to click !
FIRST again Yes yes yes I get 🥇🏆🍾🥂👏🇳🇱 and everlasting fame ! I was so fast to click!
3:34 "you don't have to spend any money". I call BS as you would *never* give the book & CD out gratis!
Classy response.