Should Christians Accept the Trinity? A Conversation with Dale Tuggy

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  • Опубліковано 6 жов 2024
  • Should Christians accept the doctrine of the Trinity? Not according to philosopher Dale Tuggy. In this episode, Tuggy explains and defends his unitarian understanding of the doctrine of God.
    Dale's book "What is the Trinity?" amzn.to/3QFu4Pp (promoted link)
    Dale's book with Chris Date "Is Jesus Human and Not Divine?" amzn.to/3oVb1ET (promoted link)
    Trinities Podcast: trinities.org/...

КОМЕНТАРІ • 329

  • @billschlegel1
    @billschlegel1 2 роки тому +21

    Thanks for the interview. Dale does a great job explaining the biblical view. Like the Apostle Paul wrote: God "desires all people to be saved and to come to the KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH. For there is ONE GOD, and there is one mediator between God and men, A MAN Christ Jesus" 1 Timothy 2:4-5

    • @jamestomas3783
      @jamestomas3783 2 роки тому +3

      Oh please,Jesus is Yahweh, and God is Tri-une.

    • @billschlegel1
      @billschlegel1 2 роки тому +1

      @@jamestomas3783 That would mean the Tri-une God is Jesus's God, Yahweh's God.

    • @jamestomas3783
      @jamestomas3783 2 роки тому +2

      @@billschlegel1
      No, because the incarnation we have what normally are two natures, this would equal two people, but we don't have that with Jesus, because Jesus the WORD WHICH IS GOD (John 1:1), he ........ *"BECAME FLESH (John 1:14)"*
      So two natures became one person instead of two persons. This is the hypostatic union. For that reason, Jesus in his human nature is not subservient to his divine nature nor is his divine nature a God over his human nature, because these two natures are the same one person. Yet the two natures never merged.
      However the Father is a distinct person from the Son, so Jesus in his human nature has a God, his Father because Jeremiah 32:27 says that Yahweh is the God of all flesh. Remember, all three persons are distinct.

    • @Justadudeman22
      @Justadudeman22 Рік тому

      @@jamestomas3783 that only means that God spoke flesh into existence.

    • @Justadudeman22
      @Justadudeman22 Рік тому

      @@jamestomas3783 His name is not Yahweh .... You can see in Genesis after Abraham is saved from sacrificing his son what His name is . And Jesus' true name is Yeshuah. Not Yahoohuah like the yahoooooo song . Lol crazy . Yahoowah lol what . Crazy .

  • @paulmussell9036
    @paulmussell9036 2 роки тому +8

    I really enjoyed this conversation. I appreciated the friendly manner, the good questions, and the clarity of the responses.

  • @johnturner170
    @johnturner170 Рік тому +2

    Fascinating discussion. I still hold to the Trinity, but it does us all good to hear different views. Thank you.

  • @GeoffNelson
    @GeoffNelson Рік тому

    I've never seen Mr. Rouser before, but what a pleasure. Asking thoughtful questions and listening to the answers. Wonderful conversation.

  • @JosephSmith-ph4xr
    @JosephSmith-ph4xr 4 місяці тому +1

    The vast majority of 'Christians' already accept the doctrine of the Trinity, even if they can't explain it or find it in the Bible. The idea that the first believers in Jesus were Jews who saw Jesus as the promised Jewish messiah, the Christ the Son of God, seems to have passed them by.
    YHWH had not fallen out of use in NT times.

  • @julianhansen3717
    @julianhansen3717 2 роки тому +7

    Christian’s should denounce the Trinity because it’s a false doctrine. I’m real follower of Jesus Christ who believes that Yahweh is the only true God

    • @Lucas-ix8bg
      @Lucas-ix8bg 2 роки тому

      The Bible lays down the foundation of the doctrine from the very beginning.
      In Genesis 1:1 it says in the beginning Gods (plural) created the heavens and the earth. The Hebrew word Elohim is plural.
      Genesis1:26 then the Gods(Elohim) said "let us make man in our image, in our likeness..'

  • @michaell1425
    @michaell1425 Рік тому

    Great interview. Dr. Rauser was wonderfully tolerant and respectful. Dale expertly answered all questions.

  • @loleki737
    @loleki737 4 місяці тому +1

    Thank you, gentlemen.

  • @greglogan7706
    @greglogan7706 2 роки тому +4

    Randall,
    I have appreciated a fair bit of your podcasts re the Alisa Childers gig. Thanks for those efforts (despite the fact that I reject the notion that there is even such a thing as "progressive Christianity").
    That being said, re the topic at hand -
    The easiest way to expose the hypostatic union - hence, trinitarian theology, is to focus on the anhypostasis - the denial of the human fundamental that you, I and EVERY man possesses.
    In the traditional model (the hypostatic model), there is NO man - merely an impersonal human nature actuated by some sort of deity...
    A pitiful grotesquerie that really dishonors Jesus of Nazareth and the effort He made..😥😥

  • @gleon1602
    @gleon1602 Рік тому +1

    Overall, I really enjoyed this conversation (I'm a Trinitarian). My only complaint is that Dale rambles a bit too much

  • @-Pierre
    @-Pierre 2 місяці тому +1

    *Bible verses showing that the Father and the Holy Spirit are united in Jesus Christ bodily, which means that there is a Biblical Trinity; The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit united 3 as 1:*
    *John 14:10-11*
    so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
    *John 10:30*
    30 *I* and *my Father* are *one.*
    *2 Corinthians 4:19*
    19 *namely, that God was in Christ* reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their transgressions against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
    *Matthew 3:16*
    16 When *He* had been baptized, *Jesus* came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and *He* saw *the Spirit of God* descending like a dove and alighting *upon Him.*
    *Colossians 2:9*
    9 For *in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.*
    *Colossians 1:19*
    19 For it pleased *the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;*
    *1 john 5:7*
    7 For there are *three* that bear record in heaven, *the Father* , *the Word* , and *the Holy Ghost* : and *these three are one.*
    *Matthew 28:19*
    19 Go ye *therefore* , and teach all nations, baptizing them *in the name of the Father* , and of *the Son,* and of *the Holy Ghost:*
    *1 Peter 1:2*
    2 elect *according to* the foreknowledge of *God the Father* , through sanctification of *the Spirit,* unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of *Jesus Christ* : Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
    But also other examples found in the book of Genesis where God describes Himself in the *plural* :
    *Genesis 1:26*
    26 And *God* said, *let us* make man in *our image*
    *Genesis 3:22*
    22 And *the Lord God said,* Behold, the man is become as *one of us*
    *Isaiah 48:16*
    16 “Come near to Me, hear this:
    I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
    From the time that it was, *I was there.*
    And now the *Lord God and His Spirit*
    *Have sent Me.”*

  • @bds8715
    @bds8715 2 роки тому +2

    'Used to be a professor'? I hope Dale Tuggy can write books freely like David Bentley Hart

  • @colinpurssey9875
    @colinpurssey9875 4 місяці тому

    Impressive guest . Speaks well .

  • @haze1123
    @haze1123 Рік тому

    Great talk. Thanks, gentlemen.

  • @darinhouston1009
    @darinhouston1009 2 роки тому +1

    To my understanding John 16:13 should not be a proof-text for the inspiration of tradition in the early church - it was not said by the apostles to the early church - it was said by Christ to his apostles which should give us a proof-text for the inspiration and authority of scripture, not Tradition. It may be true that the spirit guides the rest of us into truth but not as reliably and not with the same authority. And it begs the question of "which" council you choose to follow - also that the earliest church can't fairly be seen as clearly trinitarian even at Nicea. Even later councils denied Nicea's Christology.

    • @darinhouston1009
      @darinhouston1009 2 роки тому

      @Thoska Brah Suggesting Nicea was trinitarian is simply wrong. No serious scholar believes Nicea even addressed the "third person" at all - that was addressed at Constantinople something like 50 years later - not just made more explicit. Nicea (on theology at least) was solely interested in the christological question. Nonetheless, there were a number of intervening councils which were strongly and less strongly Arian. Including several in Sirmium with a far more diverse and larger contingency from both the East and the West. Most are unaware how limited Nicea was in representation and how political it was being driven by a pagan Constantine or how pagan the influences were at Nicea (such as the concept of homousious itself). Nor are they aware that after Constantine that Constantius was strongly Arian and that Athanasius was even exiled at one point while Arius was returned from exile and "cleared" of his accusations. The simplistic story that this has always been the clear teaching of the church is just wrong. Burning unorthodox teachings (and their proponents) has "cleansed" history somewhat but there are signs of the effort if anyone is willing to look. (I guess this was the first "cancel culture" and "misinformation" campaign.

  • @annieBBL24
    @annieBBL24 4 місяці тому

    grateful for Dale Tuggy. He's got the wherewithal to take down James White who isn't always an honest debater.

  • @greglogan7706
    @greglogan7706 2 роки тому +1

    Randall,
    I have to compliment you on the very even handed very civil very respectful discourse that you had with Dr Tuggy....
    Dr Tuggy not surprisingly maintained that same spirit just because that's who he is ( unless he gets beat up on then sometimes he'll occasionally briefly lose that composure but he has to be beat pretty hard...😖

  • @MONOTHEISMUS
    @MONOTHEISMUS 4 місяці тому

    Great interview

  • @joncopeland
    @joncopeland 2 роки тому

    Good interview. Enjoyed it.

  • @darinhouston1009
    @darinhouston1009 2 роки тому +3

    The way I see the triadic passages is a recognition that there is a triadic reality to the gospel message - the messianic reality is triadic in concept -- not in three persons - but instead that there is God in heaven, and now the man who was on earth, and the spirit being the way the Father interacts with Jesus (and us) to enable the Messiah to be our mediator and is the power that saves us and empowered Jesus. And in that way, that is how we receive the spirit also. We are baptized into that relationship and thereafter have that same reality as believers. We are in Jesus and (as such) have that same relationship with the Father through the spirit as Jesus did.

  • @joshualynch9168
    @joshualynch9168 2 роки тому +2

    To Dales point, it makes no sense to say that you're saved once you accept Christ without knowing "Jesus is God" and once you have the "full revelation" and deny it you're out. It seems to me that's adding to the gospel. Paul has some very stern words for those who add to the gospel.

  • @greglogan7706
    @greglogan7706 2 роки тому +1

    I would approach substantiating some understanding of the spirit of God by avoiding the 2 or 3 beloved cherry picked proof texts of trinitarians by advocating looking at ALL the text related to the spirit from Genesis to Revelation from which certain profound features can be identified such as the spirit of God is never seen in heaven and the spirit of God is never seen in the eschaton
    This gives us some clue at least of what the authors were understanding even though they are never specific as to what the spirit of God is.... because the focus seems to be on what the spirit of God does

  • @dandydina9237
    @dandydina9237 9 місяців тому

    Worship of God the Father is latreou while that of Jesus is proskuneuo.

  • @Kenji17171
    @Kenji17171 2 роки тому +2

    Do you have any doubts on trinity?

    • @shamuscrawford
      @shamuscrawford 2 роки тому +1

      No

    • @Randal_Rauser
      @Randal_Rauser  2 роки тому +7

      I have no substantive doubts in the fundamental correctness of the orthodox church's confession. But there are many questions in how to work out the theology of it into a Trinity theory.

    • @TheMorning_Son
      @TheMorning_Son 2 роки тому +2

      It's mainly the christology. I did make videos exposing that flaw. With God's help of course.

    • @greglogan7706
      @greglogan7706 2 роки тому

      @@TheMorning_Son
      The easiest way to expose the hypostatic union is to focus on the anhypostasis - the denial of the human fundamental that would make a man.
      There is NO man in the hypostatic union - only an impersonal human nature actuated by some sort of deity...
      A pitiful grotesquerie and really dishonors Jesus of Nazareth...😥😥

    • @josephmusembikyalo5580
      @josephmusembikyalo5580 2 роки тому +1

      Where is the triangle trinity in the bible

  • @antiochapostolicministries
    @antiochapostolicministries 4 місяці тому

    Bless the Lord, O' my soul! I am so thankful for revelation of Jesus Christ as conveyed by the Prophet Isaiah in Isaiah 9:6,
    "For unto us a child is born (we agree that this is JESUS), unto us a son is given (again he's speaking of JESUS!): and the government shall be upon his shoulder (the reveal of JESUS in His Millenial reign as Christ that is to come!): and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor (descriptions of JESUS!), The mighty God (what you say? That's JESUS!!), The everlasting Father (there it is! JESUS!!), The Prince of Peace (that's nobody BUT JESUS!!)."
    There's no need for further dissections, reinterpretations, additions or subtractions! GOD has spoken concerning who He is, and let the church say AMEN!!!

    • @trevorsimpson4784
      @trevorsimpson4784 4 місяці тому

      Jesus is the Mighty God? The Everlasting Father? Think again.

  • @AstariahJW
    @AstariahJW 4 місяці тому

    Jehovah God is almighty and jesus is his son
    2 distinct individuals in heaven
    Jesus is Gods first created angelic son

  • @DaddyBooneDon
    @DaddyBooneDon 2 роки тому +1

    I get the Unitarian position, but I see 2 glaring problems. 1) The deity of Christ is so clear that we have to wrestle with the nature of Biblical Monotheism, and 2) I'm very uncomfortable with making Jesus a lesser god like the Gnostics did. This leads to idolatry, literally worshipping the creation.

    • @EnglishMike
      @EnglishMike 2 роки тому +3

      I'm not well versed in unitarianism but Tuggy says that Jesus isn't a deity at all, lesser or otherwise.

    • @DaddyBooneDon
      @DaddyBooneDon 2 роки тому

      @@EnglishMike we know Tuggy's position, but where do you land in this discussion?

    • @DaddyBooneDon
      @DaddyBooneDon 2 роки тому +1

      @@ChristianRescue Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am."

    • @greglogan7706
      @greglogan7706 2 роки тому

      @@DaddyBooneDon
      Jesus said Eat my body....
      Can you please tell me how Jesus tastes...??? Beef? Venison... well, hopefully not pork...🙂

    • @purpleatit1
      @purpleatit1 2 роки тому +1

      It can indeed be difficult to think outside one's own doctrinal box.
      On worship, we need the biblical understanding where acceptance of superiority by bowing etc is translated contextually as worship but only bowing when it is a king.
      God says, don't bow to idols, bow only to me. He doesn't say, don't bow to the king!
      In one passage the Jews 'worship' God and his king in one action.
      When one honours God's appointed king, who acts on God's behalf, then we honour God.
      1 Chronicles 29:20
      King James Version
      20 And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the Lord your God. And all the congregation blessed the Lord God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the Lord, and the king.

  • @pabloandres6179
    @pabloandres6179 4 місяці тому

    Randal are you dense? Set up a debate between SAM SHAMOUN and Dale Tuggy. Have you not seen tuggy destroyed by Rogers?

  • @Kenji17171
    @Kenji17171 20 годин тому

    11:00

  • @josephmusembikyalo5580
    @josephmusembikyalo5580 2 роки тому

    There's nothing like trinity of devine , since the beginning son of man has been seen by Abraham ref; Genesis 18:1,Daniel 7:13 Isaiah 9:6 Mathew 28:19 revelation 5:1...God the father son and the holy spirit is a name of one God, three naming of person in Jews calture I assume.yaweh is Almighty able to appear to us as a burning 🔥 exodus15:3 man of war, spirit etc

  • @williamtolbert5011
    @williamtolbert5011 Рік тому +1

    God the Father is not the Author of Confession, but man is. Most worlding are not Specialist in the world of the Spiritual especially when it comes to the Bible definition of Spirit. I am a Biblical Unitarian belief Christian who is an SDA orthodox in living.

  • @michaell1425
    @michaell1425 Рік тому

    Dr. Tuggy blithely speaking of people "going to hell" was surprising and disappointing for someone of his knowledge and insight into the bible and theology. Hopefully he at least does not mean by "hell" (not a biblical term) eternal conscious torment. The Bible and good reason of course teach temporary punishment leading ultimately to salvation for all (see for example 1 Cor 15:20-28). And even if that is not certain, it is certain that God will not torment any soul forever.

    • @cc3775
      @cc3775 Рік тому

      Usually if someone talks about people going to hell that’s what they mean. I agree and hope he really doesn’t understand it that way.

    • @ABC123jd
      @ABC123jd 8 місяців тому

      I believe Tuggy affirms conditional immortality. The Bible does not teach temporary punishment, but eternal punishment (Mat 25:46). But that punishment is death, not torment (Rom 6:23).

    • @michaell1425
      @michaell1425 8 місяців тому

      @@ABC123jd I hope Dr. Tuggy is a conditionalist as you say. As far as what the Bible teaches I once agreed with you, but not anymore. Have you studied the case for temporary punishment being the biblical position?

    • @ABC123jd
      @ABC123jd 8 місяців тому

      @@michaell1425 I've looked into universalism, but I'm not convinced.

    • @michaell1425
      @michaell1425 8 місяців тому

      @@ABC123jd what have you read?

  • @thehumanjesus
    @thehumanjesus 2 роки тому

    Does the “pre-human” or “Preexistence” view of some unitarians also qualify as “docetic”?

  • @franciscogutierrez3095
    @franciscogutierrez3095 5 місяців тому +1

    The trinity is clearly polytheism, I don't care how they slide it! If Jesus is God, his father is God and the holy spirit is God, the total is 3 Gods!

  • @JudeOne3Four
    @JudeOne3Four 2 роки тому +2

    Malachi 2:10 Have we not all ONE FATHER? Has not ONE GOD created us? No, No, No Malachi don't you know that one means three and three means one?🤦‍♀
    Trinity means three in unity. Three *what* in unity? 3 gods, period, It doesn't matter how you slice it. The Bible DOES NOT teach polytheism nor mysticism. The God of Israel is 1 Person just like the first man He created in His *own* image and likeness.

  • @NC-vz6ui
    @NC-vz6ui 2 роки тому

    I looked up the beliefs of the Church of God General Conference and didn't find it compelling. It's seems like they just believe in the Trinity without stating they believe in the Trinity. I may just be confused. It's like they believe Jesus was a human with divine power given to him by God. A Demigod or half god because they still believe in a virgin birth. Anyways, I find this interesting because I was raised Trinitarian Pentecostal and we always had a debate going with Oneness Pentecostals.

    • @jaredmatthews1561
      @jaredmatthews1561 2 роки тому

      yeah, i think you discribed their belief correctly. i think the important thing is that they believe Jesus was created

    • @nathanlamse5159
      @nathanlamse5159 2 роки тому +1

      Jesus isn't a demigod or half God in unitarianism. He's a man.

    • @greglogan7706
      @greglogan7706 2 роки тому +2

      @@nathanlamse5159
      Just as Jesus Himself stated in Jn8.40 -
      "Why do you seek to kill ME - a MAN - who has told you the truth that He has heard from GOD"
      Hard to miss...🙂🙂

    • @purpleatit1
      @purpleatit1 2 роки тому

      If you were looking at the right page, then I'd suggest that you are just confused by it.
      The majority biblical unitarian position, (can't speak for the Arian position), is that Jesus was a form of special creation - a second Adam. But just a man, all the same. A man who struggled, but managed to live up to the idea of being made in God's image - where Adam failed.
      A man through whom God did great works, and shared great words.
      “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know-
      Acts 2:22 ESV
      Having achieved all of that, even to the defining moment of the cross, Jesus has now been raised to great power and responsibility. Sitting at God's right hand. Still a man, but a glorified man.
      We believe that Jesus leads the way, that we too will be raised in glory and inherit the same body as him.
      We shall be like him.
      'Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.
      1 John 3:2 ESV

    • @NC-vz6ui
      @NC-vz6ui 2 роки тому

      @@purpleatit1 Thank you for sharing your beliefs with me. That makes more sense to me now. So you don't take the passages when Jesus says I and the Father are one or if you seen me, you've the seen the Father as literal, but more of an achievement status?

  • @benjpope6949
    @benjpope6949 2 роки тому

    Hi Randall,
    If a new Christian asked you who Jesus is/was and why he is important to the Christian faith, how would you answer?
    I mean would you describe Jesus as God incarnate or a human with divine attributes?

    • @Randal_Rauser
      @Randal_Rauser  2 роки тому +2

      The level of specificity I would use would depend on the context and the person (e.g. a layperson vs. an academic; a testimony vs. an academic dialogue). I wouldn't say "human with divine attributes" but "God-Man" or "theanthropic" or "incarnate Son" would be fine.

    • @benjpope6949
      @benjpope6949 2 роки тому +1

      @@Randal_Rauser Thank you Dr Rauser, what is your main objection to unitarianism?
      Also, how would you respond to the phrase "God came down and became human"?

    • @Randal_Rauser
      @Randal_Rauser  2 роки тому +3

      @@benjpope6949 Thanks for the questions. But addressing my problems with unitarianism go beyond the forum of UA-cam comments. I'm happy to say God the Son became a human.

    • @Alamoboxing
      @Alamoboxing 2 роки тому +1

      ​@@Randal_Rauser Son never was God...

    • @jonostake
      @jonostake 2 роки тому

      @@Alamoboxing if you say so

  • @virtualfreedomseekers
    @virtualfreedomseekers 2 роки тому

    Taken from Jewish Voice website: "We believe that Jesus is the Messiah (Yeshua HaMashiach), God Himself in the form of man." Today this blows my mind.

  • @sbd7589
    @sbd7589 2 роки тому

    To answer the question Randal asked around 42:00, Christianity WAS true when it was purely monotheistic in nature around the time of Christ. BECAUSE the unitarian/monotheistic message in it was corrupted so heavily, God corrected the deviation with Islam. This is the simple explanation that my Christian friends need to consider seriously. Study Islam, study the Qur'an and study the life of the Prophet Muhammad and you'll be able to see very clearly that the pure monotheism that Jesus preached and the truth lies within it.

  • @benbockelman6125
    @benbockelman6125 2 роки тому

    To me the doctrine of the incarnation is an important part of Christianity because it shows God in self giving love rather than sending someone else to do his work. God being willing to suffer in creation seems to give me hope that there is a reason for all the evil in the world.

    • @purpleatit1
      @purpleatit1 2 роки тому +1

      God so loved the world that he gave his only son, so that we might have life.
      I wouldn't want to add to that, or change that by making it about God suffering and dying. Let's stick to scripture, which tells us that God only has immortality - which by definition means - can't die.

    • @benbockelman6125
      @benbockelman6125 2 роки тому

      @@purpleatit1 How do you know what scripture is?

    • @purpleatit1
      @purpleatit1 2 роки тому

      @@benbockelman6125 There is an element of faith - that God preserved his word in essential form.
      There is also an element of searching for treasure and understanding.
      So I accept that God preserved the important documents, partly because they were valued by men of faith and discernment.
      They were copied many times, and thus susceptible to, mainly, accidentally being inaccurately copied. But even then, we can compare the different families of copies and see those inadvertent changes.
      So best to use the more modern literal translations, but with a modern concordance and textual reference in hand. These allow one to see the alternative textual choices and translation choices.
      There is evident a natural bias towards the orthodox doctrines being chosen during translation.
      But I don't support the idea of production of biblical unitarian translations, as one is just playing bias against bias.
      Better, for me, to see the choices and have these in mind while reading specific passages.
      (I'm not sure if this is the answer you were looking for or expecting. )

    • @cc3775
      @cc3775 Рік тому +1

      Man sinned against God, man must make amends.

  • @trevorsimpson4784
    @trevorsimpson4784 4 місяці тому

    Unitarianism and Sabbath keeping are matching doctrines. They are very Scriptural. .

  • @euston2216
    @euston2216 2 роки тому

    Jesus' Father is not a different person than Jesus. Jesus' Father is Jesus himself, in a different level of existence.

    • @thehumanjesus
      @thehumanjesus 2 роки тому +1

      Schizo Alert!

    • @euston2216
      @euston2216 2 роки тому

      @@thehumanjesus
      *TRINITARIANISM:* The Father compelled his personally distinct, "eternally begotten" Son to suffer and die against that personally distinct Son's own will ("NOT MY WILL, but thine, be done"). Child sacrifice.

      *UNITARIANISM:* The Father compelled his personally distinct, "human only" Son to suffer and die against that personally distinct Son's own will ("NOT MY WILL, but thine, be done"). Child sacrifice.

      *BIBLE TRUTH:* The Father - whose name has been revealed to be JESUS, the name which is above _every_ name - "came down from heaven" (without leaving heaven) and manifested himself on earth as _his own_ flesh-and-blood Son, and compelled _himself_ to suffer and die amidst a genuine "internal" conflict of wills: "let this cup [of suffering] pass from me" was the will of the Father manifest in the flesh (i.e., the Son), but the will of the same Father who "fills heaven and earth" was for the cup of suffering to _not_ pass. Two wills, one unipersonal, omnipotent SELF-sacrificing Spirit: JESUS.

      _"Greater LOVE hath no man than this, that a man lay down _*_HIS life_*_ for his friends."_ (John 15:13)

    • @cc3775
      @cc3775 Рік тому

      Where is that in scripture?

  • @faezbokair3162
    @faezbokair3162 2 роки тому

    December 25: The Birthday of Mithra and Jesus
    Monday, December 9, 2013
    December 25: The Birthday of the Iranian God, Mithra and Jesus of Nazareth
    by Siamak Adhami, Ph.D.
    "Grass-land magnate Mithra we worship, whose words are correct, who is challenging, has a thousand ears, is well built, has ten thousand eyes, is tall, has a wide outlook, is strong, sleepless, (ever-)waking, whom the warriors worship at (=bending down close to) the manes of their horses, requesting strength for their teams, health for themselves, much watchfulness against antagonists, ability to strike back at enemies, ability to rout lawless, hostile opponents. [Mithra] who is the first supernatural god to approach across the Har_, in front of the immortal swift-horsed sun; who is the first to seize the beautiful gold-painted mountain top; from there the most mighty surveys the whole land inhabited by Iranians, where gallant rulers organize many attacks, where high, sheltering mountains with ample pasture provide solicitous for cattle; where deep lakes stand with surging waves; where navigable rivers rush wide with a swell towards Parutian Iškata, Haraivian Margu, Sogdian Gava, and Chorasmia."
    We began this essay with one of the most beautiful passages (4.3-4) from the Avestan hymn in praise of Mithra as translated by the eminent Iranist Ilya Gershevitch. Mithra was a deity common to at least two branches of Indo-European people, namely Iranians and Indo-Aryans. In addition to the hymn in the Avesta, we are also aware of the presence of the god Mithra or Mithras (Vedic “Mitra”, Middle Persian “Mihr,” and Persian “Mehr”) in the ancient Indian scriptures known as the Rig-Veda (BC 1400). For the ancient Iranians, the god Mithra had two significant functions: he was first and foremost the sun-god whose thousands of eyes spied on every deed and nothing, particularly evil deeds, could escape from his gaze. Secondly, he was the god of contracts. For example, even in late Pahlavi/Middle Persian texts which are concerned with legal and religious matters, there exists a severe crime and sin which is related to the functions of Mithra, i.e., the crime of “mihr_druz_h”(Avestan: miθr_.drujim) which signifies “breaking promise or contract,” and by extension, “perfidy.” Perfidy was classified as one of the most heinous crimes with severe punishment prescribed for the offender. During late antiquity, the worship of Mithra became popular, particularly among Roman soldiers and merchants. The reasons for the popularity of the cult of Mithra among these two groups are easily understood: the martial nature of the hymn can explain the popularity of Mithra among soldiers. Similarly, his reverence by the merchant class is equally clear as he was the god of contracts. It is not unreasonable to think that merchants traversing across ancient commercial highways such as the famed Silk Road in antiquity preferred to conduct business with those whom they trusted and the affiliation with this mysterious fraternity only served to cement the bond between them. The adherents of the Mithraic cult, similar to those of other religions such as Judaism, Christianity,
    and Islam, also held festivals celebrating different aspects of their religion. It appears that the annual celebration held on December 25, the winter solstice, was the most important celebration of the cult; it was believed that Mithra was born on this day, hence “the birthday of the unconquered sun” (Latin: natalis solis invicti). Later, the practices of the cult seem to have gained much in popularity. With the advent of Christianity, a number of pagan practices which could not be abandoned found their way into this new religion. The most significant of these was the identification of the birthday of Jesus, commonly known as Christmas (Old English Cristes maesse: Christ’s mass), with that of the undying Mithra.
    Much has been written on pagan cults in the Roman empire and particular attention has been paid to the cult of Mithra (consult the partial bibliography below). In fact Ernest Renan went as far as stating that “if the growth of Christianity had been halted by some mortal illness, the world would have become Mithraic.” As Walter Burkert points out, Renan may have exaggerated the case as the worship of Mithra belonged to a rather elitist segment of the society. However according to Werner Jaeger, there is no doubt that Mithraism and Manichaeism, two religions with well-established Iranian connections, posed a serious threat to the spread of the new faith which became known as Christianity.
    Further readings on Mithraism: Adhami, Siamak, PAITIMĀNA, Essays in Iranian, Indo-European, and Indian Studies in Honor of HANNS-PETER SCHMIDT. (2003) Mazda Publishers, Costa Mesa, CA. Burkert, Walter. Ancient Mystery Cults. (1987) Cambrdige, MA. Cumont, Franz. (1923) Die Mysterien des Mithras. Leipzig. ____, (1896/99) Textes et monuments figurés aux mystères de Mithra. (2 vv), Brussels. Duchesne-Guillemin, Jacques. (ed.) (1978) Etudes mithraiques.Actes du 2e congrès international.
    Teheran (Acta Iranica 17) Gershevitch, Ilya. (1967) The Avestan Hymn to Mithra. Cambridge. Hinnells, J. R. (ed.) (1975) Mithraic Studies: Proceedings of the First International Congress of Mithraic Studies, I-II, Manchester. Jaeger, Werner. Early Christianity and Greek Paideia. Cambridge, MA. Merkelbach, R. (1982) Weihegrade und Seelenlehre der Mithrasmysterien. Opladen. ____, (1984) Mithras. Meisenheim. Ries, J. (1979) Le culte de Mithra en Orient et en Occident. Louvain-la-Neuve. Turcan, R. (1975) Mithras Platonicus. Leiden (EPRO 47). ____, (1981) Mithra et le mithraisme. Paris.

  • @lesmen4
    @lesmen4 2 роки тому

    Threre are so many miracles happening in Catholic/Orthodox church attest the divinity of Christ equal to Father
    ,

    • @darinhouston1009
      @darinhouston1009 2 роки тому

      How do miracles in the church attest to the divinity of Christ or that he is equal to the Father? The apostles performed miracles to attest to the power of and to the glory of the Father, didn't they?

    • @lesmen4
      @lesmen4 2 роки тому

      @@darinhouston1009
      Apostles performed miracles in the name of Jesus. Jesus performed miracles by himself.
      There are many things Jesus said or did in his human nature to dierct people to God ( that is himself ) and what they should do to please God.

    • @darinhouston1009
      @darinhouston1009 2 роки тому +1

      @@lesmen4 Jesus performed miracles by the power of the Spirit to the glory of the Father.

    • @darinhouston1009
      @darinhouston1009 2 роки тому

      In fact there were occasions where a town's faith was insufficient for him to be able to perform them. So it sure doesn't sound like an inherent power as God of the Universe.

    • @lesmen4
      @lesmen4 2 роки тому

      @@darinhouston1009 Thats the same Spirit Jesus sent over desciples after resurrection and the same glory rests with Jesus' devine Nature too as Father. Jesus mission was not of performing countless miracles ( may be he did, but not recorded ) but to offer himself as sacrifice for our sins.

  • @The-DO
    @The-DO 2 роки тому +1

    The Father said: I am alpha & omega
    Jesus in the book of revelation said: I am alpha and omega.
    Jesus is God or he is a liar.
    Dale Tuggy thinks Jesus is a liar.
    Stay away from Dale

    • @darinhouston1009
      @darinhouston1009 2 роки тому +1

      There are other arguments in this topic. But, if they both said they were the "bees knees" would that make them the same person? First and Last, Beginning and End, and Alpha and Omega are all three slightly different things - they share a theme in common but it is an unprovable presupposition that this is some sort of title for Yahweh or that everything Yahweh may have said about himself is only attributable to him in every possible context.

    • @The-DO
      @The-DO 2 роки тому

      @@darinhouston1009 When I asked a Jehova's False Witness on the street: "When Jesus said: I am Alpha and Omega. Is he God or is he a liar?"
      He tried to explain that I (me) am alpha and omega also! x_x
      I have a beggining and I have an end - but I am NOT the alpha & omega.
      My car has a beginning & an end, but it's not alpha and omega.
      2. I guess it's super normal for a normal man to say: "[Jesus said] All power is given to me in heaven and in earth" (Mat 28)
      3. Jesus used the personal name of God "I am". "Before Abraham was I AM"
      4. Granville Sharp Rule debunks United Pentecostals, Sibelianism, Arianism (basically every strange cult that denies trinity)

    • @thehumanjesus
      @thehumanjesus 2 роки тому +2

      Keep reading to Rev 1:18 “I am the living one. I was dead, and behold, now I am alive forever and ever!” How can God die?

    • @The-DO
      @The-DO 2 роки тому

      @@thehumanjesus RC Sproul has a wonderful preaching on the "death of God".
      God can't die. If God dies everything disappeared instantly.
      Atonement required a perfect human ("one sinless man worth more than all sinfull humanity, that's why Jesus could die for all" - Jacob Prasch)
      Human manifestiatian could die but not even that could be kept in the grave (Acts 2:24 death could not keep him in its grip.)
      Jesus is 100% God and 100% man
      The Bible is 100% God and 100% man.
      (In the same way as 2 of hearts is 100% compatible with 3, 4 & 5 of hearts as well as 100% compatible with 2 of diamonds, 2 of clubs and so forth - I apologize for my stupid card illuatration. But I hope this can be helpful)

    • @darinhouston1009
      @darinhouston1009 2 роки тому

      Seriously, if they were this offended and concerned that their rituals and habits had been changed and curious what it meant for them, do you not think such a claim would have rocked their strict monotheist world? I typically don't lend much to arguments from silence, but this is the most appropriate place in history for it to mean something.

  • @Mooseouma
    @Mooseouma 2 роки тому +1

    Trinity?! I don't think so.

  • @MichaelTheophilus906
    @MichaelTheophilus906 3 місяці тому

    Thank you, Dale.