Marci Shore - What is worth dying for? Maidan Showed what Ukrainians are Ready to Risk for Freedom.
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- Опубліковано 27 чер 2024
- Marci Shore asks the vital question:
What is worth dying for? While the world watched the uprising on the Maidan as an episode in geopolitics, those in Ukraine during the extraordinary winter of 2013-14 lived the revolution as an existential transformation: the blurring of night and day, the loss of a sense of time, the sudden disappearance of fear, the imperative to make choices. The Maidan was an illumination of the human capacity for natality, the ability to act, to begin anew at this moment. It was the turning point without which Ukrainian resistance to the full-scale Russian invasion cannot be understood.
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Marci Shore is an American professor of intellectual history at Yale University, where she specializes in the history of literary and political engagement with Marxism and phenomenology. Marci is author of Caviar and Ashes: A Warsaw Generation's Life and Death in Marxism, 1918-1968, and of The Taste of Ashes, a study of the presence of the communist and Nazi past in today's Eastern Europe. But today we will be discussing her most recent book, about the Revolution of Dignity - The Ukrainian Night: An Intimate History of Revolution.
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LINKS:
/ marci_shore
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marci_S...
jackson.yale.edu/person/marci...
history.yale.edu/people/marci...
yalebooks.co.uk/book/97803002...
www.ukrainianworldcongress.or...
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BOOKS:
The Taste of Ashes
The Ukrainian Night: An Intimate History of Revolution
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Yet another great interview, Jonathan!
I first came across Marci Shore while listening to Timothy Snyder's lectures about Ukraine. Her capacity to engage her students with the human aspects of historical events really resonated with me.
Each interview you do, whilst increasing my overall understanding of what is happening, & why, raises more & more questions about the path forward for future generations.
I feel more assured & increasingly optimistic that Ukraine WILL overcome the tyranny of "ruskiy mir" because their recent history really has forged them to be the nation that will never give up their freedom & will always look out for each other.
Yes, they need some support to get there sooner rather than later but every blow they receive increases the resolve of all Ukrainians of every generation & it SHOULD increase our resolve to stand alongside them until the russian system of tyranny is forced to implode catastrophically.
Ukraine MUST win - Ukrainians have so much to teach us!
До перемоги і далі!✌️
СЛАВА УКРАЇНІ! 🇺🇦
Great interview.
The greediness and selfishness of a central government always provoke the member states to revolt.
Slava Ukraine.
Support from Indonesia.
My friend just had her reposting of M. Shore's CNN article on the heroism of Ukraine and nihilism of Mike Johnson downgraded in FB, likely due to unpleasant photographs of a bombed Kyiv.
It is so refreshing to see that being an intellectual and expressing moral clarity in our relativist, it's-all-good, every story-has-2-sides society does not have to be a contadiction in terms.
Dr Shore and her husband Timothy Snyder should go down in textbooks as the heroes of this hour, unafraid to speak out against the horrors of the Kremlin's actions.
What a thoughtful and interesting historian. Thank you !
I suspect that being a psychologist in Russia is a demoralizing profession. That was a great interview lots to think about. 💙💛
Top shelf interviews. Impressed with the consistent quality.
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Thank you Jonathan! I learn so much from your show, you always ask the right questions, and then let your guest answer! Much respect to you!
I listened to Timothy Snyder's lectures on Ukraine and Marci Shore gave the one on Maidan, and I found it the most compelling as she made it so real! Thanks for having her on the podcast.
The idea that instability of the 1990s is the root cause of Putinism doesn’t hold water if compared to Ukraine. I lived through 1990s in Ukraine. It was absolutely awful. It felt like the end of times, as if the fabric of everything that’s familiar and dear to your heart is being yanked from under your feet. It was the time of excruciating poverty, personal humiliation's, hopelessness.
So why did Ukraine chose freedom while Russia chose tyranny? National character matters.
So true. Ukranians are individualists and do not put up with tyrany
@@mariafoster7388 Zelenskiy broke all his elections promisses, closed all opposing media, banned opposing parties, canceled the elections and now abuducting people on the streets and sends them to the front line to die against their will.
"Ukranians are individualists and do not put up with tyrany" - concluded a very smart person.
You guys will eat anything. ANYTHING.
Thank you, Jonathan, for this excellent conversation with Marci Shore. She and Timothy Snyder have educated me a lot regarding Ukraine's history and current situation. I really admire both, not only for being great historians, but also for their humanity as well as advocacy for Ukraine.
🇺🇦 Перемоги і миру всім українцям! 🇺🇦
Thank you for interviewing Professor Shore! I loved her book! It was wonderful! The fight for democracy is truly being led by the warrior Ukrainians!!! The US should take notice.
Thank you to Marci Shore and Jonathan Fink for your excellent interview. Greetings from Western Europe ❤️🇺🇦🇪🇺🇺🇦❤️.
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What a great guest and what a sensational interview! Marci Shore’s final words in this conversation can only be underlined: “TYRANNY IS NOT GOING TO WIN”!!!
Thank you! Interesting and informative. Prof Shore is insightful and inspirational, always a delight to listen to, even when dealing with topics that are anything but delightful. (And you were very good too! 🙂)
Thank you. Enjoyed every moment. Amazing guest. Hope you bring her back again.
You have amazing guests and you have been a great host. Thanks for your work, interest in Ukraine and your support. It’s great that you really give space to your guests and let the interviews go where their intetests are but still shape them with well prepared questions; I like how you can tune into different aspects and points of view where your guests are at comfortable. Also thanks for inviting Ukrainian voices so often and voices of people trusted by Ukrainians like Marci Shore.
From Poland:
The "threshold" for compassion diminishes in a directly proportional way at the 2000-km from the East-West Ukrainian border. Hear me out:
The door of where my family lives here in PL (our building) is +/- 450km from Lviv where ruzzian missiles are flying by.
Here? Even my Mother-in-Law (totally apoliticized) understands the fact "dat ruzzian game" since 2009. NOT 2014 or 2022! Since 2009.
Wrong... since the 1980's. Read history here? I know that you do. The comment is for "others"...
About my women's grandma? She did not have to. Grandma lived it.
Maybe also because she's a Pole? My best guess it that the Ukrainians have a similar History vis-a-vis ruzzia...
But when we hear that just before Easter, Da ruzzian kiril, da big kahuna of da ruzzian orthodox Church declared a ruzzian "holy war" against the West?
Well... Maybe that's a sign of a civilization debacle to come in ruzzia?
Ain't no religious! But I also remind people that:
It's really eazy to talk.
In all respect and love from Poland, perspective is sometimes lacking in the West.
And your Intervewee is 100% correct: In the late 1990's, we all wanted to believed F. Fukuyama with "the end of history and the last man".
I sure did!
In 2024?
F it and let's deal with the fact that ruzzia HATES our Democracies.
Such comments gives me hope that there's people who see current situation clear. Thank you! Hope more people in democratically countries realized that!
Since long before the 1980s actually.
Russism is a special form of misanthropic ideology based on great-power chauvinism, complete lack of spirituality, and immorality. It differs from the well-known forms of fascism, racism, nationalism, in its particular cruelty, both to man and to nature ... Possessing a slave psychology, it parasitizes using false history, on occupied territories and oppressed peoples.
unfortunately here in eastern europe history is more difficult to deal with than in other parts of the world but deal we must.
Im a subscriber and regular listener.. Really appreciate the intelligence that you bring to the "public square" re: Ukraine and this infernal war. This particular conversation was a balm to me.. Thank you.
Excellent interview! Thanks Jonathan, Marci! 😊
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always with the best conversations, Jonathan! we appreciate you.
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Very good interview! Thank you both.
Love this interview. This is my kind of professor - sharp, knowledgeable, and a true humanist.
No.
Fascinating discussion, and as a psychotherapist who find that the historical experience that she is discussing about Ukraine, how I look at my life and my patience lives. Thank you.
What an insightful interview 👍👍👍👍 Thankyou Johnathon xx Thankyou Marci Shore 👍👍👍👍 God Bless .. SLAVA UKRAINE 🙏🇺🇦🙏
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So many layers to this fascinating interview. Re: Russian inter-generatioal trauma. Solzhenitsyn once said; "Why was Germany allowed to prosecute its evil doers and Russia is not... what kind of disasterous path lies ahead of us if we do not have the chance to purge ourselves of that putrefaction rotting inside our body? What then can Russia teach the world?"
Excellent interview, like other interviews. Feeling very lucky to have this chance to see these streams. Questions and answers are great indeed. Many thanks
Is there any other channel with such an endless cornucopia of deep insight?
Impressive quality interview!
Good day from France. Slava Ukraini !
❤I so wanted this interview to continue for hours. It seemed as if it ended abruptly. Thank you!
Shocking but no surprise. Interesting interview!
Interesting discussion Jonathan. Slava Ukraini.
Thank you, Jonathan. Slava Ukraini 🇺🇦
Very nice interview. Thanks. This compilation of perspectives fleshes out understanding.
Marci Shore words at end of interview provided the words for me to post on @Pontifex, Pray for Ukraine and know Ukrainians have a courage stronger than a white flag, Ukrainian flag is blue and yellow, know and understand that the temporary occupation by Russia is a reign of terror, that no negotiation with the reign of terror is possible.
She was terrific,enjoyed listening to her.
Great interview
What a fantastic talk!! So much knowledge and love for these countries of these two makes an excellent ground for exploring the history, current situation and future. Please listen end marinate. There is hope
Thank you for your profound content
*_Ukraine’s agency and will to fight are assets of historical proportions that should not be taken for granted._*
_ The West’s advantage is not permanent. Ukrainian lives and the Western advantage over Russia are the costs of US and Western decision-making delays. The erosion of the West’s capability to counter the Russian threat will be proportionate to the delays in the Western realization of the threat itself._
Great interview, thanks!
I really appreciate Marci Shore’s view. Her account of Maidan in her book was incredible. I first came acrosd her in Timothy Snyder’s lecture series and immediately bought her book and it’s an amazing read (although important to say, it’s a personal view, a great and important account but perhaps not completely universal, but no less deep and humane).
I really like how in this interview and elsewhere she resists essentialising people, Russians and Ukrainians. While I think there is something to how culture shapes people, we should always remember there’s a tandem between culture and institutions and that culture can change profoundly with different institutions (East and West Germany, and North and South Korea are the strongest examples); however, it’s also true that once a certain culture develops, it does shape the kinds of institutions that are possible and that people choose. Yet, precisely that’s why, even if analytically it can be correct, normatively it’s still a better idea not to essentialise culture, to give people the freedom to change and build a better society. I don’t expect Ukrainians to do this for Russians, and I detest Russians and Westerners who expect Ukrainians to save both Ukraine and Russia (many Ukrainians nonetheless do a lot of good stuff for Russia… like defeating its dictator…), people expect impossible from the Ukrainians - and I think they are certainly right when they warn us that it’s not just Putin and that there are deep systemic problems in the Russian society. But perhaps describing the history, as Marci Shore does so well, is the best solution: describe what happened in the past and is happening now, but also allow different things to happen in the future. I like Marci’s constant reminders that history is full of contingencies and human agency: that’s a hopeful message that I certainly can get behind.
Bravo 👏 👏👏🙇♀️👍👍
Very insightful
Great interview. It’s amazing how similar her presentation (framing, tone, sequencing) is to her husband Timothy Snyder. Both are incredibly powerful in their own right.
So many good interviews. Every one encourages me to make connections and provides so much inspiration. Hearing about how the news of torture etc in the Donbass turned Ukraine more and more to the West. Putin drove Ukraine away.
I think she, like many liberal thinkers, undervalues the power/impact of culture and cultural narratives. In saying she doesn’t want to “essentialize” she’s essentially rejecting “culture,” which is objectively silly if you just step back and look at the full spectrum of human history, experience, and resulting enduring cultural & civic identities around the world.
When she speaks of tolerance to violence, look at the Tajik suspects in the Crocus attacks. I have no words except that the display of these men seems to be prelude to something worse.
Timothy Snyder interview coming soon? 🤔🤞🫠🤗🙏🙏🙏
Regarding oh how horrible it was for the Russians the 90s: how come it wasn’t as horrible for the other republics? And wasn’t Russia killing Chechens by the hundreds of thousands in the 90s?
It was probably at least as bad for the other republics also. At least russia then (not now) kept its foreign contacts. Those breakaway parts did not have those as everything had been directed to go through russia.
I really appreciate Shore's academic precision in describing the phenomenon she's looking into, it really helps understand her thought processes. However, I have a bit of a disagreement about her description of the nineties in Russia and the level of chaos, and the degree to which that weighed on people's choice of freedom vs. security. While the 90's were definitely really crazy in Russia, there were quite a lot of people who did improve their standard of living (not just the oligarchs) especially as the decade progressed. I think many peoples' memories of those times have been influenced by Putin's propaganda, to the point that fear of returning to that chaos might really be more of a post hoc rationalization of the Russian peoples' passivity in the face of the Putin regime.
The Ukrainian Night: An Intimate History of Revolution BOOK by Marci Shore
What is worth dying for? A vivid and intimate account of the Ukrainian Revolution, the rare moment when the political became the existential Grounded in the true stories of activists and soldiers, parents and children, those in Ukraine during the extraordinary winter of 2013-14 lived the revolution as an existential transformation, the sudden disappearance of fear, the imperative to make choices.
A vivid and intimate account of the Ukrainian Revolution, the rare moment when the political became the existential, while the world watched the uprising on the Maidan as an episode in geopolitics
All post-Soviet societies have changed enormously in the past thirty years except Russia. Moscow is stuck in the 1930s, or is it 1730s?
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Jonathan: there is an echo in your room. It makes it unpleasent to listen to with headphones
Oh. Maybe a better microphone could fix that. Unfortunately I can’t change rooms - as the others are probably more echoey…
Love her and her husband Tim Schneider
I'm...dubious of the initial claim that the Soviet Union was a grand experiment in social engineering. I feel it more reasonable to apply that label to the Russian Revolution - ie: the movement that killed the Tzar and founded the various Soviets to run things collectively. The one that was hijacked by the Bolshevik faction, forced to vote control over to Lenin and his minions under what is at least a very strong implication that they would be shot otherwise. The one that was largely represented by the White Russians in the ensuing civil war, as the other factions quite reasonably didn't consider this to be a fair voting process.
(And yes, Stalin is definitely worse than Lenin. But Lenin is Stalin Lite, not Marx-in-practice. Just another strong man willing to kill to assert dominance over his own people. Stalin just turned the murderous dictator dial up to...hopefully somewhere around the highest level we'll ever see.)
She makes so many good points...."issues about masculinity are destroying the world"--so true! In that same vein, it's been pointed out that Navalny was much more attractive (and taller) than Putin. Funny that the short and botoxed dictator could never even say Navalny's name out loud. Smells like jealousy to me!
Also about Elite very important
And Kyiv didn't have Ksenophobia as much....as in Moscow they looked at us from top to bottom and corrected our Russian language...and they still do it overseas in the west when you come upon Russians in their 50s 60s.....ignorant but not cause they wanted to be ignorant.....Soviet mentality did its work very very well...even all other 14 former republics still have people which are very ignorant beyond believe and of a Soviet mentality 😢
Out at 30 seeing Crimea as a holiday destination for Russia.no challenge. Intellectual ?
A Channel that us in cognitive decline.
*Free Russian journalist Antonina Favorskaya!!!*
And American journalist Evan Gershkovich.
Poor, defenseless Russians. They are so unic in their struggles during the Soviet time. That's why we need to understand and forgive them everything.
This is an ironic comment, I hope? Nothing excuses their behaviour in Ukraine. Nothing.
Jonathan is amazing.. his razor sharp insight & clear understanding of military conflict, in particular regarding the Russian invasion of Ukraine. He has a memorized & detailed knowledge of both Russia's and Ukraine's combat abilities.. troop losses numbers/logistics/positions.. and his assessments covering the entire front are impeccable! Also is his accurate comprehension of geopolitics & history throughout the entire region. Wish there were more of his kind in the war-blogger/podcast arena
Great interview!
Destruction for the sake of destruction. The russian way of life. They disgust me.