This Scene Breaks a Character
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- Опубліковано 8 вер 2024
- For those of you who'd rather read than watch, here is the full essay in text form, complete with links and footnotes:
www.shamusyoun...
My 25 part retrospective on Spider-Man:
www.shamusyoun...
So Mary Jane needs to talk to a scientist, wh - hm... well... before we get to that, first we need to talk about Parallel Universes.
A web swing is a web swing. You can't say it's only a half.
@@QuothTheRavenclaw11 Classic.
x 2
completing spiderman ps4 with 0x A presses
You know, I'm something of a scientist myself.
If your Silver Sable rant would be half as quality as this one, then I'd definitely like to see it.
It's on his blog, which has tons of awesome reading on a variety of subjects. Well worth reading.
Play the Silver Lining DLC almost everybody agreed it improves the character.
@@themadtitan7603 is it better than the first two DLC? I personally really disliked the first two and just never got around to playing Silver Lining.
@@Shadowfire204 Yes, definitely imo, a lot of reviews said that it's what the first two should've been and because of it people now like the PS4 version of Sable, finally ends the Screwball arc (thank God), and features a surprise return.
@@morgansinclair6318 What's his blog's name if you don't mind ?
"Now if you're done interrupting me..." I died laughing
rip
F
That one really got me to trust him, I had a proper laugh
Lmaoooo
That was some nice subtle foreshadowing about the actual problem he was gearing up to rant about; blaming "us" for something "we" didn't do is precisely the issue with the cutscene.
Dat's some smart writing.
Idk, "dumb bullies" who are "irrational, dim-witted, and mean" are exactly how I'd describe new york journalists
How id describe New Yorkers in general
Afiant 愛 how I’d describe New York
WilkerZin I mean, there’s some nice beaches in Cali
But yeah, New York can just go
@WilkerZin For fucks sake don't just say New York, it's the retarded city, not the rest of us up state
American Journalism as a whole
This make me want to read a story told from the villains perspective where the villain wins because the hero was overwhelmed by personal and mental problems.
Anti-Nihilist _ Well that would just be a really boring read. If the hero is the one who's facing problems then why would we see it from the villians prespective?
@@tieuucanh8958 it'd be one of those stories where the villain had to win in order to become a bigger threat so even bigger situations or stakes can form in a future story or arc.
It'd be less annoying to see the hero suffer from the villains perspective and you'd be able to see some villain on villain interactions and perhaps you'd get a decent explanation why the villain didn't take full advantage of the hero's problems to actually kill him/her.
@Miguel Gudino thats basically 95% of the plot of that Dreamworks Animation movie Megamind.
@@tieuucanh8958 It'd make a great comedy. Especially an absurdist comedy.
Tiêu Đức Anh
There are different problems people face outside of the grief we usually see the heroes deal with.
In Tolkien’s writings, the villains (Morgoth and Sauron) are actually more interesting than the heroes because they have their own problems. They don’t have to deal with responsibility but they do have to interact with others while knowing they are an exception to every rule, they don’t have to deal with grief but they can be paranoid of working with others considering they can be killed or enslaved by their subjects.
Also, main heroes are kind of annoying: magine going on a streak of dominating a city or becoming the lead crime boss for an entire generation only for a random guy to consistently slander you and destroy millions of dollars of your private military’s property. Or in Sauron’s case; you nearly dominate the world in a 4D chess move until a fucking Hobbit crawls out of his hole just to throw your soul into a volcano and ending your reign through the act of God tripping a guy and making him fall. I don’t know about you, but I’d be pissed off at the protagonists too.
*says MJ's attitude reminds us of an antagonist*
*MJ wears green in this*
*90% of Spider-man villains wear green*
Makes sense lol
ILLUMINATI CONFIRMED!!!?
Now that you mention it...
Wait....that’s a strangely good point a lot of spidey villains do wear green lol.
Maybe it was intended from the start that Spider-Man and his villains would be Christmas color themed?
Actually makes sense. Spidey wears red and green is on the opposite side of the color wheel, thus thematically used as its opposite.
Batman isn't using his detective mode anymore because he's D E A D
I don't think so
Antonio Escobar *Allegedly
I don't think he's actually dead. I feel like he faked his death
@@DeadpoolLIFE69 yeah yeah ik, but like, comedic purposes
Or so the Germans would have us believe...
Uncle Ben died?! D:
I know! He should have given a spoiler warning first.
Knowing marvel probably is not final...I mean, the Clones are back every now and then!
They should have put him in rice. Oh wait, they did!
@@morgansinclair6318 Uncle Ben, a rice!
:3
You spoiled the whole story for me
Maybe it's confirmation bias but watching the cinematic it really feels like you have the right instinct. Spidey says something like "I guess it wasn't a sabre soldier", which makes sense if he only saw the gun, assumed a soldier was about to shoot MJ, and went in a-punching, and the way the scientist guy slowly falls on his arm only works if he was only knocked out. If you look at his falling down animation his eyes are already closed too, whereas he should be wide eyed panicking.
In addition, Spidey has his hands up in a combat stance with fists balled when the camera cuts back to him.
I rewatched the scene after reading this and you are 100% right, looks like he was knocked out before he hit the ground.
@@kethran6730 no he doesn't. Rewatch the scene. He balls them up, but you can clearly see they're at his sides before balling up. You can watch him bring them up from his sides and ball them. Somewhere around 5:50 should do the trick.
Steven Belchamber it’s called fainting
@@Randomninja47 Yeah. He's just wincing
Spiderman’s “detective vision” is his spidey senses it definitely makes more sense than detective vision
Jack F, and unlike Batman Spider-Man makes his own gadgets like Tim Drake does, so it makes no sense on why he compared Spider-Man’s Spider-Sense to Batman’s Detective Vision from the Arkham games even though the Spider-Sense has been around since the 60’s.
Except the detective vision clearly comes from the lenses of the mask. Not from his powers.
His Spidey Sense warns him when there's danger nearby or if something is gonna happen. It doesn't allow him to see through walls and outline who's friend and foe...
I think, Shamus called it "detective vision", because it visually looks like it and make very little sense as a "spidey senses".
i think in the game it's stated to be an ar scanner.
I think its his lenses on his mask
The game's really fun up until it turns into Mary Gear Solid: The Phantom Jane
Sounds like you enjoyed it, the developers notes exactly how much you liked those missions, and they game you alot more! Have fun!
honestly just because she acts totally irrationally and bullies him despite him doing nothing wrong, some people act exactly like this. so I can't exactly call it bad writing, just makes her not the greatest of characters.
The point is, that while yes, some people are really like this, they are people that we the audience don't like, and don't want to like. So if you take a character that, as an author, you want the audience to like... and make them unlikable... you have failed as a writer.
Realism is not an excuse. Reality is stranger than fiction, because fiction is supposed to make sense.
Oh hi deadwing
Dad is that you
"It's not bad writing, it's just bad writing"
Fieari Kei'lin
Hold up,
But the game is aware of this. MJ in this game later apologizes to Peter and they both agree that they did mistakes on the relationship
I have never cared for this sort of lois lane type trope where a character uses their connection to the hero as a means to live an extra dangerous life. By changing MJs character the dynamic has actually changed. Before mj would be in danger solely because of her relationship with spiderman. Loving peter was the risk she was willing to take and thus peter was duty bound to protect her as the source of said danger.
In this universe it implied that peter protects her because as you said hes pathologically driven to do so. But more importantly mj goes out seeking danger for a scoop and events ensue *that require spiderman to save her* . As demonstrated by the gun in her face and no means of escape. If spiderman wasnt there shed have been shafted. Shes tired of peter saving her but if she was a good investigative journalist she wouldnt need the saving.
i think this relationship has evolved from the one you're talking about, MJ has known Spider-man for 8 years now, it would have started off with her loving him and being at risk because of that but i think eventually she also wants to do her own thing as well, hence become a reporter
and its not like she actively searched for danger to infiltrate, Fisk's museum and the Grand Central Terminal she was only looking around before shit hits the ceiling, and most of the other times she's inflitrated places she's informed spiderman about what she was planning on doing which he gives the go-ahead, like Osborne's suite
MJ never loved Peter.
@@kasumintailmon well you clearly didn't play the game
Investigative journalists are regularly putting themselves in danger and regularly have their lives threatened... Especially if they're good at their jobs
@@scorpiOHscorpiHO exactly, there's lists of journalists joining cults and disguising themselves in terrorist groups to expose cruelty so a journalist going undercover in a hero/villain dominated world doesn't sound too out there
Shamus Young died on Wednesday, June 15th, 2022, at 3am, of cardiac arrest. He is greatly missed by family, friends, colleagues, and his audience.
The MJ changes were a bit... On one hand, we changed everything about this character you love. On the other hand, you now get to play really boring stealth sections with her. Wooooooh
Ratchet & Clank also spliced the high-octane action of Ratchet with the boring "use the right commands" puzzles of Clank, but at least those games were called Ratchet & Clank. Who asked for crouchwalky distraction segments in Spider-Man of all games?
Exactly. They also changed her into nothing new. Shes a smart talking reporter type now but not even an interesting one. Shes a discount Lois Lane, discount Piper, hell, a discount April O'Neil
Never finished the game thanks to the awful MJ sections
I really have no idea who wants to play as a normal human.....in a fucking Spiderman game....who gave the green light on that?
Repent! You art not woke!
Seriously. This game was cool but it had some REEEEALY bad filler content.
if the scene was changed from spidey conking out the guy, the player getting mad at him after spending so much time in the stealth section would perfectly parallel how MJ feels,
and so the reason she would be mad would be much more believable to the player, since THEY just experienced the same amount of work be undone instantly just like she did.
We know why Peter did what he did, and it was still an honest mistake, but it would actually be a better choice to keep the punch in.
Not to mention that the scientist has a face so punchable that he would make Steven Universe look manly.
I have my money on some moral choice aka "but spiderman cannot just punch a good guy, take it away".
I would argue that the "angry playtester" was the desired outcome, because without it, the player would automatically side with spidey, without even considering the other side of the story. Which is exactly what happened.
I think the problem here is that people generally absorb video games differently than how they absorb stories in other media. It's considered acceptable for the protagonist of a story to irritate the reader by making an obviously stupid decision or one that's contrary to their own interests because the reader is meant to feel that frustration toward the subject of a story they're not a part of. In video games that's considered unacceptable for the reasons Shamus gave in this video. Fundamentally the problem is that gamers, or at least most gamers, are unwilling to accept a dumb story moment from a player character for the sake of a story. It's perturbing to see their own story disrupted in that way.
You're almost certainly right about the punch being cut: The insert of the guy tripping when his shoe clips through the world's dumbest floor is a static shot with only that one leg in it, and his ankle doesn't even bend.
@@GoogleUser-wf8mt We're talking about the same guy who a) thought Mary Jane was a terrorist and b) decided to still point his gun at her after he realized she wasn't. Who's to say he wouldn't have tripped anyway? He's clearly not very bright.
@@GoogleUser-wf8mt Except that, _again,_ a lunatic was pointing a gun at her. Even if he had no intention of shooting, it could have gone off accidentally (because. _again,_ the guy was a nervous wreck). Spider-Man was completely justified in intervening. I'd argue MJ wouldn't be justified in her reaction even if the cutscene had happened as Shamus describes the original could be.
@@GoogleUser-wf8mt Perhaps on the moment. It doesn't justify that she keeps being mad at it for days.
@@GoogleUser-wf8mt
She stays too mad at a mistake. I wouldn't even call it overprotective. Person is getting gun pointed at them and hero stops that. Wether its MJ or Jake from state farm the hero was just being a hero.
While I loved this game and 100%’d within 3 days,I can agree with all your points. The scene is extremely stupid in the fact he’s being blamed for an idiot tripping on himself
he did startle him, and she apologized later tho no?
hiitoast242 yea but he jumped in his face with a guy that thinks he is about to die someone ripping a gun out of his hand that’s his only protection and looking up to have someone jump in ur face ur would get spooked and fall it’s natural instinct she has the right to be pissed I don’t like her in this game but come on it was peters fault
@@mamba4186 exactly, its good story telling in my opinion
I think the main problem here is that Standish held a gun,his spider sense triggered if you noticed. When he was on the roof Standish just put the gun down. This game has really good parts and some bad parts and I’m saying this as a guy who waited 3 years and did legitimately everything in the game
hiitoast242 ok be honest if u had a gun for protection and someone snuck in ur tent while there are people trying to kill you btw they can be possessed by anyone so u don’t know who is who then all of the sudden the gun is ripped out of ur hand and u look up and someone’s in ur face I’m sorry no matter how hard and tough u are ur gonna get startled u take a step back and ur foot hits something and u trip all in the matter of a second so no time to stop and think the story telling was amazing in this game no good no bad every scene contributed to the story and didn’t feel forced felt like a Spider-Man story coming all together
With Mary Jane in the game, they seem to have decided to combine her with Betty Brant. Both Spider-Man love interests, but he actually succeeds in a relationship with Mary Jane, so she's good for the plot they wanted, but Betty is the reporter (well, secretary for the newspaper, but you can easily change that to reporter and nobody would bat an eye). So, plop the red hair and the name Mary Jane onto Betty Brant and there you go.
Would love to see a popular adaptation of Mary Jane which treats her the way she is in the comics. There are interesting things to do with her without making her Gwen Stacy or Betty or whatever.
Side note: I've seen it said that part of the beauty of full-fledged stealth _games_ is the frantic attempt at damage control if you _do_ get spotted. And yet _forced stealth sections_ are almost always over the instant someone notices you.
I'd definitely be up for hearing about silver sable. I know nothing about the game (don't own a PS4) but really enjoyed the break down of the MJ scene in this vid.
Same
Same
Same
Same
Same
I feel like making the player play as her in half-assed industry standard slow stealth missions only make people hate the character even more.
i don't hate MJ, I think she's quite good as a character, but the stealth missions can always be improved on
True plus I don’t find it believable that she keeps sliding past supposedly ‘best in the world ‘ security with little to no issues
@@SlickSkuddy do you also find it believable that you can massacre a 100 people in GTA, hide for a few minutes then have police completely forget your existence? me neither
also Sable and her men are all retarded, so it doesn't go outside the realm of possibility
Problematist stealth combat is made to be slow tho I seriously find people impatient I didn’t found these totally shit I loved the change in pacing actually
@@Booogiemancousin69 i agree, the missions are there to remind the player how vulnerable we are as powerless humans
you could compare the stealth missions to playing as Ellie in the first Last of Us game
If someone jumped through the roof after I’ve been attacked I’d probably jump back aswell no matter who it is
Jay Murray yeah but this guy was a idiot
MJ was insufferable in this game. The core of her conflict with Peter was that he was "overprotective", except we're never shown him being OVERprotective. At multiple points in the story, MJ inserts herself into situations way over her head where her life is LITERALLY in danger and Peter has to swing in to rescue her from certain death. That's not being overprotective. That's a regular, healthy level of protecting the person you love. Rather than being GRATEFUL for Peter repeatedly saving her life, she gets pissy with him for looking out for her. It's not endearing. It just makes you want to slap some sense into her, and scream at Peter to stop apologizing for doing the right thing and maybe find someone more deserving and appreciative of his care.
Combine that with the side-character stealth sections being boring as hell (nobody buys a Spider-Man game to play BestValue Metal Gear as Mary Jane), and it really combined to make her thoroughly unlikeable.
Shamus, hearing you rant about things is 87% of the reason I watch your videos and read your blog. So yes, a video ranting about a random character in a ps4 exclusive game from 2 years ago that I haven't played and probably never will is definitely a go for me!
10:58 Rocksteady? Not Insomniac?
@Le Rana I'm not complaining, I genuinely asking if he really meant to say Rocksteady here
@@chasny4588 well, the full essay on his blog also says Rocksteady. So I think he really meant to say that.
@@chasny4588 It's a mistake that has since been corrected on the blog's version: "For some reason I had Rocksteady, not Insomniac in the script. I don’t how I never caught that in editing. Maybe it’s because my next script talks about the Batman games. Oh well. Now that mistake is part of the video and people can correct me on it. FOREVER."
Time to make "This word BREAKS an Analysis"
@WilkerZin N.. No..
Well, technically......Green Goblin didn't kill Gwen....
OH *SNAP*
Would love to hear the Silver Sable rant.
Jack Coleman, Green Goblin killed Gwen Stacy in the main 616 Universe until they brought over Miles Morales and Spider-Gwen from the Ultimate Universe.
@@RoronoaZoro-ur6hr It was Spidey's web that broke Gwen's neck. Green Goblin only threw her.
Unknown User, Gwen Stacy would have died even if Spider-Man hadn’t tried catching her with his web, and that was the point of the Death of the Gwen Stacy comic.
@@RoronoaZoro-ur6hr yeah, but he *did* snap her regardless. Which was the point of the OP's comment.
@@RoronoaZoro-ur6hr It was honestly just a joke made for no other reason than to be tasteless. Hence the emphasis on the word snap.
3:50 "modesty prevents me from describing the other gross and humiliating changes which are thankfully hidden by my costume", hahaha A class writing, love it
They really just should have made MJ Gwen Stacy in this game, it would have made a lot more sense.
Just say you want her to die tragically.
@@GermanKinsmen It would have been up to the developers if they wanted to do the whole Gwen Stacy death story, but it seems like they wanted to save Green Goblin for a possible sequel with how they handled Norman Osborn, so we wouldn't have gotten that in this game anyway.
Also, your username is exactly what every version of Gwen Stacy thinks the moment they're added to anything spiderman.
@WilkerZin for the sake of name recognition of course, except general audiences would still be more familiar with Gwen Stacy due to the Andrew Garfield movies.
Making it Mary Jane only really appeals to straight up comic fans and fans of the Raimi movies, both of whom can tell full well that this isn't the same character.
WilkerZin they didn’t bastardize MJ for woke culture, lmao. They did so for gameplay
Tyes Price nope, because there are Miles Morales sneaky bits, too. They just could have all been Miles instead of giving some of them to MJ
“Silver Sable is a disaster in this game”
All I did was nod
I could see why he thought she worked for the demons. She was a young women who just got past highly trained agents
She's like Donna from That 70s Show. Gets mad at Eric all the time for things that sometimes aren't all his fault. Playing the me me me game.
Donna easily managed to be the most irritating character in the show with her antics. She would even get mad at Eric for things Kelso does or says and just attribute it to her boyfriend because idk he's a boy and kelso's friend?
@@blues4509 How about the Seth Green episodes? Why? Idiot ball*
@@t2farlop3zzz77 Honestly almost dropped the show at that point. Now when I choose to watch it again I omit those episodes lol
@@blues4509 It's definitely the lowest point imo
I feel like spidey's 'mistake' is acting off what he knows even when he has her on comms. All parties truly did the best they could, but humans are stupid, and prone to blaming each other. I found this scene entirely believable, since as much as we like to claim we are creatures of logic, we aren't. Maybe I just wasn't bothered because I enjoyed listening to the dialogue in the guard section.
It doesn't really matter what's believable and what isn't.
What matters is the intention of the scene and what it achieved. The intention was not to make players hate a central character (MJ).
@Snow White Exceptions do not disprove the rule.
Also, a character's actions/attitude being unbelievable is not the only reason to dislike a character.
I dislike MJ for being unreasonable.
@Snow White If most people dislike her, that's a problem. A few people not disliking her does not mean that problem isn't there, which is what you seemed to be trying to do with your statement.
As for MJ being unreasonable, she clearly is. Peter saw her being held at gunpoint. How the hell was he supposed to act? Furthermore, it's not like he punched Standish. The guy tripped over his own feet.
Calling Pete overprotective because he intervenes when she (a normal human with no combat skills) is being held at gunpoint *is unreasonable.* Not wanting someone to do clearly suicidal acts (she clearly dies if you fail the stealth missions) is *not overprotective.* A normal human with no training or skills sneaking into a military base where the soldiers *will kill on sight* is nothing if not suicidal.
MJ is not brave, she's fucking insane, or borderline retarded. Probably both.
@Snow White If a scene makes a lot of people hate someone in it, and that wasn't the intention, that is, objectively, bad writing. The writer didn't convey what they were trying to convey.
It's not the job of journalists to break the law. It's not the job of journalists to risk their lives.
You may point out people like war reporters, but even that job is significantly less risky (and also not breaking the law) than what MJ does. I also never said it was 'reckless thrill seeking', just that she's either insane or stupid.
How the hell was Pete supposed to know she was talking down Standish? The guy still had his gun pointed at her, for crying out loud!
He did nothing wrong. Of course he'd be worried about someone he cares for putting their life in great danger. Of course he'd go and check up on her. Of course, when he saw someone *pointing a gun at her* he'd intervene.
MJ was in danger every second she spent in that military camp. It's a fucking military camp after all. The guards would shoot her on sight. Standish had a fucking gun pointed at her (gun safety 101 is that you don't point a gun at someone you don't intend to kill in case of misfires). The fact that she safely made it to Standish *is irrelevant.* She could have been easily spotted and killed. Furthermore, she would still have had to make it out of the camp. Who's to say she wouldn't have been spotted then?
MJ has no training in any kind of skill that could help her. Pete has no reason to believe that she'll be fine sneaking through a military camp. What she does is *suicidal.*
@Snow White
Yeah, I'm repeating myself because there's multiple points that you either *aren't* addressing (not even tacitly accepting) or you're just twisting into a strawman.
There's a *massive* difference between accompanying people trained to kill professionally in areas that are dangerous and potentially meeting people who want to kill the people you're accompanying (people who are not focusing on you since you aren't a threat and who may not kill you even if they do capture you) and sneaking, by *yourself,* into a military camp where you will be shot on sight, without any training that would assist you in this task.
It's funny that you say she's a war journalist when I specifically pointed out that, in my opinion, even that job isn't as risky as what MJ does.
No, calling her insane or stupid is not the same as saying she's thrill seeking. Reckless, yes, since she is, but not thrill seeking.
Insane means that there's something seriously wrong with her mind. Stupid means she can't fully comprehend the situation.
Yeah, my point is that just because she got through all of that on her own, doesn't mean she can get through the rest. By all logic there's no way she should be as successful as she is in this regard. She's literally a novice at sneaking and yet she's weaving her way through dozens of trained soldiers.
The fact of the matter is that they *aren't* equal. Not in this context. Spiderman can punch people through walls. He can get hit by a car going 80mph can still get up and swing around. MJ is a normal human. She's not even a trained normal human.
When did I say he should get credit for not getting her killed? My point is that from a spectator's point of view (which is what Peter was at that point) she was clearly in danger. He had no way of knowing she'd gotten the situation under control (although logically speaking, since Standish was still pointing his gun at her, she didn't - the gun could always go off accidentally and kill her).
Silver Sabel rant? Yes, please!
I visit Uncle Ben and Aunt May’s graves whenever I load up the game
I'd watch a video about dumb silver sable moment. But then again I'd watch any video of yours, buddy! Keep'em coming, love your "this dumb industry" series. Thanks a lot for the content
I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on the Silver Sable.
Also, one of the reasons Spidey cracks jokes so much is also because he is under a mountain of stress and personal issues. And his jokes help him through that, like he said - 'tension breaker'. If that isn't enough of one reason from someone who has saved your life so much and tries his best to protect an entire CITY, then you'd be.. MJ.
I really don’t like the new MJ. She doesn’t feel like MJ at all. MJ has a lot of depth in the comics and they change it into a character who doesn’t want to be a sidekick and gives us annoying side missions. Way to make her more like able lol
I hate the side quest, but MJ in the game had a lot of depth for what the game length was. A comic is obviously gonna go more in depth because it's a comic, it can put more into it.
Between this and Spider-Man: Far From Home, what's up with this obsessiveness in erasing Mary-Jane's character?
@@lugbzurg8987 Probably cause of the Raimi trilogy.
"None of the developers at Rocksteady"
Don't you mean Insomniac Games?
No he meant rocksteady spiderman is basically arkham asylum during the day
I’m surprised no one has capitalised on the Spider-sona craze caused by Into The Spider-verse and made a game that lets you create your own Spider-person and kick bad guy butt. Or is that just me?
People didn’t really like Spider-Verse for that reason, Venom-Verse proved that
@@hyperion3145 the heck you talking about, spider verse was a REALLY well recieved movie.
@@lifeoflonexia496 he's probably talking about the comics, alot of people don't like that series
Life of Lechaim
I was referring to the comics, hence why I brought up Venom-Verse, unless they made that into a movie too.
While I liked this MJ just as fine, I do not get this idea of changing love-interests into reporters or forcefully involved into plots to make them strong and active when the comicbook MJ is when one of the strongest female characters in Peter's life.
If executed properly, I actually would have been interested in a sub-conflict where MJ is a struggling actress trying to get into the industry and the acting is a way to cover her abusive childhood (is actually a thing in the comics) as much as the action sequences.
I wanna see that silver sable rant. I didnt know what was wrong with her but I could feel it
play the DLC, she's technically an angry idiot who shifts her blame onto others, silver sable being an asshat isn't the problem but its the fact that the game treats her as a super hero even tho she's done more harm then good
Her character arc was pretty good. She changed as a person, and grew on to Peter, which i liked. She was super uptight which got annoying but, you gotta kinda see from her shoes. She was one of those "I am the law, and I will stop crime at any cost" type of characters.
its 7 a.m. over here what am i doing
Joaquín 2:00 Am here
Watching a video on UA-cam. Gramps was watching the morning "news" or listening the radio just the same, nothing new, nothing special.
11:00 "developers at rocksteady"
Insomniac: ok guess we don't exist then
I think this version of MJ took some notes from ultimate comics, so there's nothing new, at least for me.
Yeah tear silver sable a new one XD
This might possibly be the most comprehensive and thorough break-down i have ever watched. Thank you and keep it up!
I have room for a silver sable rant in my life. take me back to 2018 where I rolled my eyes every time she came on screen.
MJ in this game (specifically this cutscene) reminded me SO MUCH of a girl I used to date that I hope the character gets a rewrite for a sequel. Man, playing as a laid back dude with a nagging ex gf was too realistic for me.
Spider-Man was designed to have realistic problems though. Having a realistic reletionship with MJ supports that
Fraser Souris, his relationship with Blackcat is much more realistic in this game than his relationship with Marry Jane.
Heisenbrrg
You: bitches be abusive
Also you: respect women
😆
She dodged a bullet by breaking up with you, she deserved better
@@MybeautifulandamazingPrincess touched a nerve, there!
Mary Jane was already important in the "Ultimate Spider-Man" series. She helped Peter with plenty of things while still retaining a lot of her character. I feel they pushed her a bit too far away from the original MJ in this though.
N Schoenhoft
Ultimate MJ is still not that active in the plot though. She’s there to offer emotional and side support but aside from that, Peter is on his own.
I’d argue the new MJ is a better take on the character because she can also help Peter on the field, be more proactive in the plot.
We shouldn’t stick to old versions for the sake of it
@@FraserSouris Fair enough. I just wish they went and made a new character for those sequences or just used Miles (I think that's his name) more. Or just use Gwen because most the fans already dislike her, so it would only make her character better in the eyes of most.
@@ns6438
The problem with those ideas is that they take the focus away from our central heroes and require a major rewrite to even fit in and feel significant. Now instead of MJ or Peter investigating, it's Gwen or Miles or some other character. Miles in particular is already very disconnected from the events of the main plot. You could technically cut him out of this game and lose very little. You'd need to rewrite the stories in every case of these. You'd also be introducing more characters for us to care about and likely divide up what limited screentime they'd get.
Basically, the current situation is the best approach
@@FraserSouris I feel that the problem is that her new personality was too stern and unpleaseant to watch, which is a far cry from her comic personality.
In the comics she was a very upbeat party girl, very witty, and she loves her job as an actress, which compared to Peter who is somewhat shy. That's why their dynamic works.
I get that it makes sense to make her a journalist to make her more involved in the story, but they dont need to do both. They can simply give her the personality we know her to be, while making her a reporter.
@@unknownuser8967 An Upbeat party girl wouldn't really fit with the story of SM2018. Especially about halfway through the game when the threat of the Devil's Breath kicks in. She'd become stern anyway so might as well ake the character consistent.
Besides, as Shemus explained, MJ's personality isn't the problem, it's the scenes
If the punch was a part of this scene, then I assume that it was changed by the suits/executives in a misguided attempt to protect Spiderman's image as a brand/character.
"I don't know any of the writers at Rocksteady" well even if you did I doubt that would help given Insomniac made Spiderman and not Rocksteady
BurningEagle i think it's a joke about how spider-man's gameplay is very similar to the arkham games
I think this guy is stuck in the 80's
I mean MJ has been a reporter in many spiderman products since the original triology
15:00
I don't blame Starlord at all... 100% of the blame goes to Dr. Strange.
Even tho starlord is the reason they lost they literally had the gauntlet off and starlord wanted to hit thanos
I always understood it that she was just annoyed that Peter/Spidey even got involved in any way. That he didn't trust her, didn't think she could do something on her own etc. They establish that pretty well during the story. She blamed him for Standish being knocked out and was frustrated because she couldn't do the interview; not because she wanted to continue interviewing a knocked out person, but because Peter jumped into the tent spooking him just when she was about to get standish to calm down.
Standish seemed idiotically jumpy, sure, but he likely could have been jumpy on a day like that.. And him falling was, well, him just being startled as a reaction. It is possible to get spooked by a friend. Or something surprising. It's not like he had time to realize "oh, look, spidey" and then decided to throw himself to the ground. He reacted to a human jumping in front of him from practically the sky.
Spidey seeing em through the tent; well, yeah, agreed. But he does have supersenses I guess. But that point is valid for sure.
I chalked MJ changes mostly under them not being highschool kids anymore, but admit fully I would've liked a more comic-book-fairhful depiction.
Yes on the Sable rant. I waited the entire game for her to do something smart, but... well, yeah. I haven't played the DLC missions yet so there's hope. But not much.
When a gun flies out of your hand and a man flies at you through a roof I think being a bit startled is okay
Standish is wearing a pink shirt and has a man-bun. He's wearing the girly-man uniform, so I wouldn't exactly peg him as the a paragon of courage. I imagine a light breeze would scare him.
Star Lord’s mistake wasn’t hitting Thanos. It was accidentally smacking Mantis’s hand. She managed to keep Thanos down until Star Lord hit her hand with his pistol.
I thought it was that mantis was feeling what Thanos felt and punching Thanos = punching mantis
Me when I read the title: How dare this man insult my favorite game of the PS4 era?
Me when I realize he’s shitting on MJ: nvm this man makes valid points....
This Guy facts tho
Silver Sable chick was so dumb
She decided to do “good” offscreen, that’s how you know this character sucks
Which is a shame cause this game got so many well written characters, even MJ who I generally dislike is amazing in this game
And can someone explain to me why is the a hole in the tent, like when Spidey saw MJ in trouble there was no hole to be seen in the tent😵
he....
Spidey made the hole...
to get in...
A UFO with WiFi coverage You do know, he didn’t go through the front door, right?
Uhm. Silver stable is a good person, her doing good off screen to not have filler. If we saw her do all the good things people would be mad at the filler. She's in a super high up government protective status, of course she would be a good person, she just doesn't like spiderman, just like the other hundred police officers and that podcast guy (can't remember his name). She hasn't done anything evil at all, besides try to protect city, then obviously got over board because of her desire. She'll stop at nothing to stop crime, and Peter have broken some laws, which makes many see him as a criminal. Do anyone that hate stable actually look at the story or did they just not logical?
@@frangotino but HOW did he make the hole? His webs don't look that powerful.
Did you see Ultimate Spider-Man? Pretty sure that is where they got the inspiration from.
Yeah when Silver Sable enters a scene Spider-Man forgets how to be Spider-Man.
I honestly agree
It's really annoying
Don't see how. He got the drop on her.
Maybe it's just me, but with the way she looks I get the feeling that journalism was something of a fallback for MJ. You know, after her 'big break' in Mass Effect: Andromeda went down the tubes.
The problem with MJ is her job description doesn't entail breaking and entering. She's a regular civilian getting pissed at Spidey for telling her to leave the dangerous business to superheroes who can do more than throw their hands up and shout "No, wait!" When caught.
I really do love hearing about terrible characters ( either implementation or story wise.) Since this was an exclusive and i dont see myself buying a ps4 for 2 or 3 games all i can ask is. WHEN'S Silver Sable GONNA GET BODY SLAMMED INTO INFINITY AND BEYOND MY DUDE?
I think if spiderman flew that fast at me, busting through the ceiling with the initial intention of beating me up, I would also fall backwards in fear.
Honestly most of my annoyance with MJ was just her being completely unreasonable in general of course Spider-Man protects her he's a superhero and she is a squishy defenseless human who doesn't even carry so much as a Glock for protection yet she decides to be active in a situation that not only involves super-powered terrorists but a Sci-Fi paramilitary group and has the gall to pretend he's being overprotective for no good reason
And her being unreasonable and acting like he is being unreasonable just makes me examine the Dynamic she wants them to have she wants to be his partner but they can't contribute equally not only is Peter the one with the superpowers but he's far more intelligent than she is his mind his powers and his Tech make him far more competent at investigation than she is the only thing she can contribute is a press pass which doesn't really matter considering how Adept Peter is at stealth sure she's necessary at times when he needs a civilian plant but she doesn't do anything that he can't do a hundred times better
If Spider-Man hadn't busted through that tent and scared him he wouldn't have fallen over himself
Obviously, this was exposed to be the "evidence to the claim" concerning the argument of spiderman being "over protective". In this game, Mary Jane is a dumb girl that walks into an area full of armed men just so she can get a " story". When they had her get onto spiderman, the story was basically saying that it was morally wrong for spiderman to be concerned with her being killed by gunshot wounds, and it's morally ok for someone to run into a drug dealers house just to take some pictures with no authority at all. Mary Jane comes off as a dumb ungrateful b*** all for the sake of including a "strong independent women". You know what women I did enjoy in this game? The black-haired girl that was in the police force. She was useful and didn't play the " im a strong women card".
Before playing game: MJ is my favorite.
After playing game: why isnt spiderman dating black cat?
I truly did dislike MJ in the game for reasons mentioned in the video, but also because for some reason they decided it was a good idea to make her look like the default female player character from the Mass Effect Andromeda.
No offense to any models for game characters, but that specific face will be remembered as the unintentional mascot of that game's fuck ups.
Personally, it would’ve been more justified for the punch if Standish had sable armor on to protect him and when spider man punched him because he thought he was a sable agent due to the armor, it could seem more justified than what we got
Holy hell yeah do the Silver Sable one. That scene, the exact one you showed with the helicopter jump, I sighed outloud when that happened.
Why tho?
@@The_G_Edits It's a scene that, in an attempt to show the player how 'cool and competent' this new character is, makes the main character fall for something that, rightfully, they should never fall for.
It's having Spider-Man job so that Silver Sable looks like a big bad ass.
Considering we play as Spider-Man, that pisses off us as players as we know full-well how contrived it is.
God... I learned last week Shamus is no longer with us...
Wished he could have takled Spider-Man 2 and it's odd choices.
So Long Fellow Nerd
Honestly, which I know people are going to be pissed when I say this, but Peter Parker really is just a beta male. Funny too, because he’s an adult in this game and he still hasn’t outgrown his teenage self. I can see why MJ broke up with him before the game starts.
Honestly, I mean I like Peter parker in this game, but at the same time, he wasn't mature enough for a relationship and was slightly annoying, there were times I would just shake my head in disappointment (not very often) from him doing or saying the immature things. I get that kinda what his character supposed to be, which i like how he grew.up at the end yet still peter parker as a whole.
We all know how much we want to play as normal boring woman in a game named Spiderman.
I think the MJ changes were pointless when they could have just made the character Betty Brant instead, she was Peter's first girlfriend, and she worked for the Bugle, granted she was a secretary, but thats still a relatively minor change.
Exactly
I just pretended that the silver sable was Malory Archer and it helped me through it
>>audience have very limited patience for plot that rely on idiocy
>>146% of plots ever made rely on idiocy, even 12 angry men
12 Angry Men's conflic comes more from bigotry, group pressure and laziness than idiocy specifically.
@@Zestrayswede
>> bigotry, group pressure and laziness
i like your vocabulary, you know so mane different synonyms for "idiocy"
if you are not ready for apologicing for something you didn't do, you are not ready for a relationship, sadly. :(
My enitre playthrough of this game had me quetioning why Peter doesn't just get with Blackcat. Also glad to know I'm not the only one that hated all the Silver Sable cutscenes so go for it.
The game had to ignore everything in the story to give silver sable a chance to shine... You know, sexism anti-sexism.
Syrus7sk, it would made much more logical sense to having Spider-Man ending up with Blackcat than Marry Jane in this game because there’s plenty of Spider suits where you’re not Peter Parker where they could have taken the route of having Spider-Man killing Hamerhead and his goons like in the comics that don’t involve Peter Parker, (Spider-Man), and then they’d be a happy couple at the end of the game.
Light Yagami Jeez thank fuck you didn’t write this game. That’s all terrible.
I can't believe that this game was released 2 Years ago.Time sure flies by
Video starts at 4:17 and ends far before 21:35
Can't wait for the Spider-man breakfast cereal game lol
I'm not sure why you're thinking everyone to act rationally all of the time.
Standish is panicked. Mary Jane is annoyed that Peter didn't trust that she wouldn't get herself killed. She isn't supposed to have a good reason to be upset at Peter - like Spider-Man punching Standish.
She's spent years with Peter being selfless and she wasn't OK sitting on the sidelines. I think her frustration works in that moment - she's lashing out at the lack of trust. I liked that they weren't afraid to show that Mary Jane wasn't entirely in the right - she loves Peter, she wants to help him, and she's kind of being unreasonable about it. I think that helps the end of the arc when they're willing to fully trust eachother's competency and intentions.
(also: 10:59, maybe you would get a reply if you sent those love letters to Insomniac).
MJ: Why do you always think you need to save me when I go directly into a supervillain hideout?
Spider-Man: I dunno, MJ, maybe because YOU DON’T HAVE ANY POWERS?!
Just switch Mary Jane with Black Cat and I think those sections would improve. She's not strong enough to take out an entire enemy base
Anti-Nihilist _, I agree with you entirely it would have made the game much better if Miles Morales, (Spider-Man), was an alternate costume that you get from beating all the main/DLC stories, and it would have been much better if Blackcat was a playable character instead of Mary Jane and Miles Morales.
I don’t see how it’s dumb that a game is exclusive. If exclusives didn’t exist then there might as well be one console with no competition where they can do whatever they want to us because we don’t have other options.
Geez... Now I have to like Cher, too?!?! The UA-cam Algorithm gods are sooooo demanding.
Being an actress doesn't exclude her from the story. As a matter of fact, that would be even better for her involvement in the story. What better for story and characters than a character who only interacts with the world via speech and behavior?
Making 'Actress MJ' a significant part of the plot would almost definitely require warping logic in order to keep bringing her into the plot again in a believable way. I'm not sure if that makes sense, but basically, 'Journalist MJ' doesn't need the plot to come to her, she goes out seeking danger and because of that gets herself involved in the plot. It's probably possible to do something similar with 'Actress MJ', but it's simply a lot more believable with MJ being a journalist, as not only does she have a personal reason to get herself into danger, but a career-based one.
@@jadelee4404 I can't speak for this specific game because I don't know enough about the plot/s but unless she's a one-dimensional valley girl hollywood actress there's plenty of ways you could fit a minmaxed CHA focused character into basically any plot. Actresses don't just act then go home, you know. Actors and actresses and models etc at all levels get themselves into very interesting situations with the rich and powerful IRL and in fantasy. I don't see any reason an actress couldn't possibly find herself amongst many spiderman villains unless, again, she's one dimensional and only cares about acting (which is definitely, definitely not how real actors behave).
@@TheTrueValkyrie66 That's a good point, and there are some villains in the game where that could easily work. In the scene talked about in the video above however, she would only be able to be involved by sneaking around like she does as a journalist. Of course, like you said, she could just have a personal reason for doing so, unrelated to being an actress, such as wanting to help spider-man by getting information. I've also seen people suggest just getting a different character to do those scenes rather than MJ, which could work as well I guess.
@@jadelee4404 I see your point, actress mj would definitely not fit into the story as-is, especially since it was written with journo mj in mind. I think that if the story was written with actress mj in mind they could have retained the same characters and setpieces and overall the "same" story, with some modifications as to some whys and hows.
For example, I don't know the exact nature of Sable's org but we could definitely have an actress involved with this apparent paramlitary/security firm since she would probably be a world traveller who needs security and get herself wrapped up in the plot via curiosity, morality, etc.
@@TheTrueValkyrie66 Yeah I wanted to say that they could fit her into the story with some modifications but didn't know how to word it lol. In the end I prefer the dynamic between spider-man being a hero/vigilante and MJ being a journalist, but I understand why fans of the old MJ miss it.
I agree completely but it's not just this one scene. She acts like an emotional child in pretty much every interaction snapping at him for every little thing. She even makes that cringe comment about not being made of glass. She just comes across as dislikable with a severe inferiority complex.
She's honestly the worst part about the game. Silver sable is appallingly written true but like you said I'm your other video she barely affects the plot. Mary Jane is obnoxiously forced into the plot where it's completely unnecessary.
Yea I agree Silver Sable part was a joke for Spider-man needs to stand against Silver Sable.
Oh, Great Allmighty Algorithm, by engaging with this video, I SUMMON THEE! May this video gain many views, and may it never leave people's Recommended tabs!
Let it be so!
Yeeea ALGORITHM GANG Woop Woop!
I've played through that part like a week ago and you are correct. The spiderman leaps into the tent and it looks like he is about to punch him (the fly pose, etc) but then he weirdly lands 10cm in front of the guy and the guy falls. It felt weird and afterward nothing really made sense. With the punch, it would make sense and I would argue that the playtesters weren't at fault, because their possible dissatisfaction would mirror the MJ one perfectly well and would actually make it easier for the player to dislike what spidey did (even though it absolutely makes sense from the spiderman perspective). I have my money on some moral choice aka "but spiderman cannot just punch a good guy, take it away". That detail aside, you are on point with this. It really breaks their dynamic and the whole arc for no reason.
as someone who has had some very dumb relationship fights in his time, MJ becoming a bully despite Peter apologizing for a minor mishap is actually very realistic.
(you're probably right about the punch though)
The downside of having literally rock-hard triceps.
"Comes off as irrational, dimwitted, and mean" "Occupation: journalist" Yup, everything checks out to me.
Don't see anything wrong with MJ here.
15:32 no. Being enraged over the death of a loved one, knowing they were murdered isn't immature at all. It's a natural reaction and fueled by the fact that he loved Gamora. I would be worried if he hadn't had freaked out
Litten Fire well, when the lives of everyone else you care about (and the whole universe) are on the line, it is immature. Saying it isn’t is just plain silly. Immature? Yes. Understandable however, is a different story. Cause it is understandable. I get why he did that. But it also was a foolish mistake, that could’ve avoided the deaths of a bunch of people, and saved the world from years of pain and suffering.