I love Steve Grossman saying, "I was relieved when Ammon and Kate did the route so I wouldn't have to waste time debunking their claims." Like he could have ever climbed Wings of Steel. What a loser.
Steve Grossman (as portrayed in this documentary) is the distillation of everything wrong with the climbing community concentrated in to one person. I am so glad that him and his type are at the end of their direct influence over the sport and there is space for the next generation to step in and move the sport forward independent of these elitist assholes with an over inflated sense of self importance. Good riddance, Steve and his lot... Rest In Peace Ammon.
I'm totally on the side of Richard and Mark in this one. I've experienced the dark side of cliquishness in the Valley. I've had gear stolen, shit in front of my tent, and being shunned, thank goodness never a fight. Mainly one summer in late 70s after several other good seasons with no problems. That summer, all my partners ended up being mostly Squamish guys and Austrian and German. I was told, being a climber from the PNW, that I didn't belong there. Steve Grossman who I normally respect was a real dick in this story. Isn't it interesting how Ammon (and Kate) get so much credit for doing such a gusty difficult climb and Richard and Mark were just evil noobs. Lets get this straight, first ascents will almost inevitably take way longer than any repeats so the fact that they took so long is BS as a criticism. Grossman, it seems, would only be satisfied either with their deaths or them begging for his personal forgiveness and kiss his ***.
Yeah Grossman sounds like a real loser. I really haven't heard of this happening in any other climbing area. I really think it reflects badly on the people involved and you can guess who they are. Big props to Gabe McNeely,. what a dude.
The cliquishness is worldwide. I started climbing 3 years ago, so I’m basically an nooby outsider still looking in. I don’t like what I’ve seen so far. The egos and the judgmental personalities are nauseating.
Fuck Steve. I mean that. I started in the 80's and never went to Yosemite back then because of this kinda bs. All anyone had to say was good luck, boys. Good on Ammon!
So I'm learning that no matter what extreme sport you personally choose to participate in, there will always be a "Steve," a selfish bully who looks down on people with less experience than him, or people new to a certain area as if he didn't have to start somewhere himself. You'd think after all these years that he would have matured and realized how wrong he was for treating those 2 poor climbers the way he did, but the dude literally couldn't even talk about how badly they were treated without grinning, like he totally supported it and would do the same thing again tomorrow to anyone he decides isn't worthy. Makes me fucking sick, dude is a gatekeeping bully, and seemingly proud of it. People like that can literally completely break a newbies spirit, and make them feel unwanted to the point where they give up all together. Same thing happened when I started whitewater kayaking. A person with 20 years of experience would decide that I didn't belong on a particular river, talk to the community about it, and suddenly nobody ever wants to paddle with you again despite how open you are about being a beginner and wanting to improve. I absolutely fucking despise people like that...
I am a surfer first and foremost, but I've climbed enough, and been lucky enough, to have had some exposure to a few climbers who, though they wouldn't admit it, were at an elite level in the sport. I must say that I did catch a whiff of the territorial/ethics thing, not on the receiving end but hearing the chatter around the campfire among the good climbers about this and that. I would also be asked about surfing's localism phenomenon, and I struggled to find parallels amongst the climbers. I always had the opinion that if resources in rock climbing became as scarce as they are in surfing, then climbers would behave the same way and climbing areas would have localism too. Of course the climbers would reject this notion, with the position that climbers are often stewards of nature, had ethics, were more respectful and peaceful, and so on. So I had to chuckle when Hans Florine mentioned surfing... To me, what went on around the first ascent is substantially and entirely identical to surf localism. It is cliquish thuggish behavior that goes far beyond what would be appropriate to the reasons they give to justify their actions. There's a difference between telling someone they're being unsafe or disrespectful of ethics, and using those virtuous motivators as excuses to choose to dislike and exclude outsiders. Most of the time the things that are done are far beyond appropriate for their given reason. You'll have a few real bullies surrounded by a large crew of simpering enablers who just want to belong. Hearing Steve Grossman talk about the route getting chopped reminded me of so many of the simpering enabler type I've known surfing. They wouldn't start anything or lead the threat but they'd be there in the background chattering. And later when they talked about their big goon friend pushing around that kook from down south or whatever, and saying yeah they were being unsafe and in the way, they would all have the same smirk Steve had. Like he was really thinking about the funny stuff that was said around the campfire after the guys that chopped the route got back. Thank goodness I learned long ago that these groups who claim things of nature as their own have built among themselves towers without foundations, and are best ignored.
When you add reincarnation/rebirth to this localism equation you can understand why they turn so petty and their world so small. Imagine Steve looping on births in the same region again and again!
Never did. Never would attempt, but I was always fascinated by climbing. The gang mentality (“we own this rock”) thing caught me by surprise. Very engaging documentary.
They ruin a lot of extreme sports, I don’t understand why gate keeping is such a problem I’m extreme sports. It’s like their being selfish and don’t want to share.
@@tomdiets5079 I'm retired at more than one [multiple] 'extreme sports'. We can pass on the LORE (tips and wrinkles, myths and legends), but we are not 'the' LAW (Dictators). I'm out of Paintball, Bungee, Skates and SkateBoards, occasionally I found myself relieved that safety (ropes especially) was a 'thing' in other things I dabbled with that I'm NOT considered expert in, so, yes, there is always going to be a better opinion on every decision you make ... after the fact, but watch out always for anyone EARNING A LIVING out of being an 'expert' on things they haven't actually got a proven [to peers] record in.
exactly I'm going fishing to be safe not stuffing fish with wieghts to win a tournament that guy smiling all the time would so I'll keep an eye 👁🗨 out
It's always nice to see petty jealousies get put to rest. Respect to both parties of climbers for persevering and achieving their objective. Some people are talkers and some people are doers.
The harassment they received is the kind of harassment you receive from a bunch of losers who think they are in a position of authority. That so call historian in reality is the chief loser.
I’m not a climber or mountaineer, but have participated in my share of extreme sports through my lifetime. I admit before I knew anything about it I was astounded by Honnold’s‘s first free solo, and therefore got very hooked on the observer level and started watching these videos. My take away from a non-participant perspective. I would add that the whole Yosemite world would be 1000 times better if everyone were more supportive of each other rather than acting arrogant and saying “I was here first, and you have no right to be here.” Bottom line is, anyone who has the courage and fortitude and skill to climb that rock has the right to be there.
This Grossman, some self-styled "historian", issuing a fatwa against Jensen snd Smith claiming they had to obey his and his sect claiming they hadn't shown enough respect by not doing the "correct" prearation is a piece of shit.
Out of curiosity do you know anything about Grossman, outside of the way he unfortunately presents himself in this film? And yes I will be the first to point out that he comes across very poorly in his comments and his clear deep seated, long held onto, resentment over dog knows what in this film (he may very well be playing the part of the "villian" for the sake of dramatic tension in the film to make it seem more compelling, granted its well known that these are in fact his deeply held beliefs and opinions about this incident).
I was a total novice on El Cap once and was jugging slowly/inefficiently out of a belay station on the Nose when Hans Florine (the 2020s version with gray hair) and his partner jetted up to the anchor I just left. He looked at me, smiled and said "you gotta get faster with that". Honestly if I got to that skill level, some of it might get to my head and I wouldn't be so kind to a slow gumby jeopardizing my NIAD ascent. Hans really is a super nice guy and emblematic of modern climbers (kind and non-confrontational). Steve, on the other hand, represents a mentality that has thankfully died off in the Valley. There are enough climbers out here that you can't possibly know everyone, and no one person has enough influence to shit on/cut down the ropes of another.
27:45 climbing south seas as a first successful wall is nuts! For those who aren't familiar with it, it is an A4 route that starts in the alcove, near where the Free Dawn Wall starts (just as a reference point) and as such is very committing given the steep nature of the start.
Climbing is such a soulful experience, I can't understand anyone who would treat a fellow climber with violence and animosity. It's an art when people climb. Fuck the "local" mentality.
Grossman is a disappointment. Typical bully. Find yourself in a 'community' and then protect your membership in that community by viciously keeping others out. What gives you the right to decide who gets to climb any rock they want in a national park? These parks, and the rocks in them, belong to all Americans.
I wanna agree but some people slam up some pretty heinous insecure routes with some mega dodgey installed protection. So I can get some of it if that was the case at the time you don't want people dying attempting to do a route and trusting pro they shouldn't especially considering it is more than locals climbing in yosemite. I don't necessarily agree with bullying but this doc felt like everyone involved had crazy inflated ego's they way they talked about themselves.
Locals who can’t stand that “outsiders” didn’t ask for permission. Typical horse sh!t found in local climbing communities. The locals couldn’t stand that outsiders were able to do this route without “local” ownership permission. Steve Grossman single-handedly caused this entire incident. His arrogance, self-importance, and Yosemite god-complex is the real problem. There’s no doubt in my mind that he was one of the three that chopped the route initially.
This guy Steve is mentally ill. He's consumed 40 years of his life hating over a lie he told himself. It appears that his entire identity revolves around that. To me, it strongly suggests that Steve has thrown away his entire life over envy and jealously. He come off like a very disturbed man to me.
43:23 I understand an incredibly idealistic young person, who is unbelievably naive due to a lack of life experience, having this attitude about two other people’s lives… but guy has got be 60 & he’s still this irrationally upset? I can’t figure out if he really is that pathetic, or if still having that kind of hatred at his age over (let’s be really honest here) a goddamned rock, is just incredibly sad.
I enjoyed this film. Didn't get the Grossman vibe at all. What's the big deal? I am a surfer and I get it when a good wave is forming and people compete to get it. The rock is just sitting there. You can wait five minutes and do the climb with no need to compete. People criticize surfing but they don't understand the fleeting nature of it and the forced time table of Go Now or miss it. Sometimes that leads to crashes and poor choices in the heat of the moment. I love climbing because it is the opposite. Just wait a little bit and the climb is all yours. Some people I will never understand. Ron Kauk comes off as such a cool thoughtful guy. I have met him and he is exactly that, a total cool cat. Grossman could learn a thing or two from him.
I must be missing something… why does Grossman seem to believe that his viewpoint means anything or that anyone should care an iota whether he ‘respects’ them? He has nothing to do with this climb - has he achieved anything noteworthy in climbing at all? His ‘historian’ moniker also seems to be self-appointed, presumably on the basis that he remembers climbing-related things from a long time ago, which is not what an actual historian is. He appears to have no academic footprint, in any field, anywhere.
He also might have considered keeping a bottle of water nearby during his interview; his sticky teeth and lips detract considerably from his already unpleasant presentation. And he's the antithesis of fun.
Total respect for the people who have climbed the route. The rest? Insecure posers. No body owns these faces. As long as damage is not being done you either can, or cannot, see a line. You either can, or cannot climb the line. The rest is schoolyard politics.
It’s seems to me, that it’s a free rock anyone can climb. For the clique of the valley climbers I say,kick rocks, you don’t own El Cap…they can climb anything, anyway…
I would add that the whole Yosemite world would be 1000 times better if everyone were more supportive of each other rather than acting arrogant and saying “I was here first, and you have no right to be here.” Bottom line is, anyone who has the courage and fortitude and skill to climb that rock has the right to be there.
Aww someone’s poor ego got shattered. If it was so important, why didn’t Steve go prove his theory 30 years ago. Instead he let it eat brain cells all that time.
I've been climbing my entire life, I first came to Yosemite (from Norway) in 1981, and on that visit I used a _single_ placement comparable to what both the first and second ascensionists had to do for _every_ move on that slab. The route was on Quarter Domes and I needed a single piece of aid to reach into the bottom of a perfect splitter crack, so the only option I found was the smallest size RP, placed sideways between two quartz crystals on the surface. It did hold my weight (I'm 59 kg), but when my climbing partner Dag (who was about 3 kg heavier) followed, the RP came out. I'm just trying to image doing stuff as insecure as that, for move after move and pitch after pitch, and I realize that I really cannot image what kind of mental fortitude that would require.
John Bachar once offered 10k to any climber that could follow him around for a day. Steve, I’m sure the climbing community could rustle up 20k for you to do the 3rd ascent of Wings of Steel-without drilling of course. It would be good so you can get your facts straight, from a historical perspective.
After watching Alex Honnold Docs. For 2 days... I can't understand the petty b.s. of some holes drilled in a mountain big enough that their route may never be repeated...
Gabe would make a good movie star , someone should offer him a role . He certainly has all the attributes of a screen icon. Cool dudes those brothers , that’s for sure.
Jealousy is an ugly trait, no one owns anything especially not other people! If you disagree with their method just move along and do it yr way, yr own route. Get over yrselfs😂 big babies.
I understand that there are people who are extremely negative, envious, violent, dishonest ............... but I don't understand how it is possible for the majority of people in one climbing community to take on such a character and abuse two people just because they are good climbers and mind their own business. Is this typical of the American climbing community, or things like this have happened elsewhere?
Eh from what I hear these guys drilled over 100 hook placements into the face and installed dodgey pro intentionally to make an intentionally dangerous climb and really aren't the bastion of noble climbing representatives this "documentary" tries to paint them as. There are reasons why people don't apply for permits for this route even over 30 years later.
I’ve read enough climbing history to know (a) what’s considered “unethical” in one generation-say, aid-climbing by the use of pitons (and, later, bolts)-is usually accepted by the next generation, and (b) new-generation climbers generally have the grace _not_ to deride earlier climbers because the latter couldn’t do climbs in as good style as modern climbers can. The _Wings of Steel_ kerfuffle shows just how far one can be out of touch with the history.
Wow...I had no idea what small-minded snobs some of these 'big wall climbers' can be. Can't they just be happy for someone else's success? It's just a sport, not a religion. Get over yourself.
Lol all these old timer gate keepers literally kept the sport from progressing. Props to them for shitting on all those guys and sending the fcking route. All those idiots couldn't dream of sending that thing.
In the end , what was highlighted is that the two men that ascended it for the first time are honest good humans , well done And that Steve Grossman is flawed human who suffers immensely living in his own , a skin that is full of malice , jealousy, anger and lies
the dick mesuring contest that went on and on on Supertopo for years finally got a break when El Cap Pirate did the second ascent but Steve G never shut up and continued to prove he was the king of jerks at his chosen profession of gatekeeper of his inflated ego. Before the Pirate flew to the great beyond he also did an amazing job of holding his shit together after nearly severing a foot on his other jump that did not end well yet in hindsight not as bad as his l final flight RIP Ammon
People find excuses not to climb a route. Curiously, most routes that are avoided are desperate, be they beautiful or ugly. Not like this climb is isolated way out in the back country. This stuff about outsider and insider is total crap. Anyone trying a climb is a CLIMBER.
This is the embarrassing part of extreme sports, the people that do them are these chill acting people acting that try and put off this live and let live attitude but they totally don’t live by this motto.
There are those who can't who teach, and then there are those who can't teach but make up a bunch of nonsensical rules to impede others, IOW Steve. I'm sorry, are you really going to remember how many holes you drilled on a first ascent?
I’Wow, if ever someone grew in to their name is Steve GROSSman. What a thoroughly unpleasant, bitter, lonely man he comes across as. Get a life and move on . Congrats two all the climbers on the first and second assent and shame on those who tried to cause them harm and danger - they should have been banned from climbing worldwide, you don’t need people like that it what is already a dangerous sport. Oh and I’m no climber, just a human being who enjoys watching and learning about climbing and who isn’t monstrous to other humans.
Because literally no one really climbs the dawn wall. It is almost a blank slate and the route caldwell took. Took like one of the best climbers months to finish. This is on the most popular wall with the most popular routes and is a literal death trap. Like there was shit all the way round but these dudes really aren't any better like this doc tries to paint.
OMG Who Cares! It's a Goddamn Rock that people climb. Who gives a shit how its done. All the shit goin on in this world and this is the crap people are worried about.
I am cursed to do just about every hobby. Most people obsess over 1-2 hobbies but I rotate non stop. What I know is anything that has this level of dedication where it becomes someone’s entire identity you then have terrible behavior more often. Anything that is dangerous , cave diving , motorcycles, climbing , it’s always got this larger group of douche bags attached to it.
Agree. I don't know anything about the story and it completely didn't make sense. Very poorly explained documentary. What was the controversy.? What a lame video.
Thank you, very few seem to understand this. I was there,lived in camp4,on the rescue site. The narratives in their book and this movie leave out very key details, and in doing so, the two have been able to smear the entire rescue team, etc. And of course, the person who pooped on their ropes after chopping their first two pitches gets praised for apologizing while others who had nothing to do with that get smeared to this day.
@@johnwaters4566 Yep. I was there, I lived in Yosemite for a very long time, 8 years on rescue site. The real story of how it all blew up into a controversy hasn't been in the public domain. Even the SuperTopo threads never had the actual explanation of how and why it got ugly. I know, and it's pretty simple.
Honestly, they evidently didn’t want to make it about their religion or they would have said something about this, they did say that they didn’t climb on the sabbath. It’s not being prejudice because they aren’t talking about other religions they just decided to not bring up religion because it’s a freaking climbing documentary. If you think this is religious prejudice I think you need to relax and stop thinking everyone and everything is about religion, not everyone lives like you and I’m saying this as a religious person myself.
I was repeating an explanation of why they were disliked and ostracized by the regular climbing community and why their climb was considered by the community as illegitimate
The way Steve reminisces about the poor treatment of Richard and Mark with a smile on his face says a lot about him
Dudes a prick
I love Steve Grossman saying, "I was relieved when Ammon and Kate did the route so I wouldn't have to waste time debunking their claims." Like he could have ever climbed Wings of Steel. What a loser.
Steve Grossman (as portrayed in this documentary) is the distillation of everything wrong with the climbing community concentrated in to one person. I am so glad that him and his type are at the end of their direct influence over the sport and there is space for the next generation to step in and move the sport forward independent of these elitist assholes with an over inflated sense of self importance.
Good riddance, Steve and his lot... Rest In Peace Ammon.
Steve is really like that, I’ve read his forum posts before Ammon climbed the route
His surname is entirely appropriate for his character and appearance.
RIP, Ammon. I miss you, my friend!
5:52 No Steve Grossman, your pathologies of aggression, self-importance and entitlement are what caused trouble on this climb.
Steve, you never would have climbed this…
I'm totally on the side of Richard and Mark in this one. I've experienced the dark side of cliquishness in the Valley. I've had gear stolen, shit in front of my tent, and being shunned, thank goodness never a fight. Mainly one summer in late 70s after several other good seasons with no problems. That summer, all my partners ended up being mostly Squamish guys and Austrian and German. I was told, being a climber from the PNW, that I didn't belong there. Steve Grossman who I normally respect was a real dick in this story. Isn't it interesting how Ammon (and Kate) get so much credit for doing such a gusty difficult climb and Richard and Mark were just evil noobs. Lets get this straight, first ascents will almost inevitably take way longer than any repeats so the fact that they took so long is BS as a criticism. Grossman, it seems, would only be satisfied either with their deaths or them begging for his personal forgiveness and kiss his ***.
Yeah Grossman sounds like a real loser. I really haven't heard of this happening in any other climbing area. I really think it reflects badly on the people involved and you can guess who they are. Big props to Gabe McNeely,. what a dude.
Agreed, that Grossman is a piece of work.
When is Steve Grossman going to apologize?
Sad,but true.I understand respect for traditional styles in certain areas,but if your vision is true,just do it.
The cliquishness is worldwide. I started climbing 3 years ago, so I’m basically an nooby outsider still looking in. I don’t like what I’ve seen so far. The egos and the judgmental personalities are nauseating.
Steve is an embarrassment to the sport of climbing.
yup total d bag
Fuck Steve. I mean that. I started in the 80's and never went to Yosemite back then because of this kinda bs. All anyone had to say was good luck, boys. Good on Ammon!
Steve comes over as an arrogant elitist, who feels he owns it all, not a good look
I’ve heard many a story about him leaving bags of his poop on the cliff face.
That attitude is truly sickening.
So I'm learning that no matter what extreme sport you personally choose to participate in, there will always be a "Steve," a selfish bully who looks down on people with less experience than him, or people new to a certain area as if he didn't have to start somewhere himself. You'd think after all these years that he would have matured and realized how wrong he was for treating those 2 poor climbers the way he did, but the dude literally couldn't even talk about how badly they were treated without grinning, like he totally supported it and would do the same thing again tomorrow to anyone he decides isn't worthy. Makes me fucking sick, dude is a gatekeeping bully, and seemingly proud of it. People like that can literally completely break a newbies spirit, and make them feel unwanted to the point where they give up all together. Same thing happened when I started whitewater kayaking. A person with 20 years of experience would decide that I didn't belong on a particular river, talk to the community about it, and suddenly nobody ever wants to paddle with you again despite how open you are about being a beginner and wanting to improve. I absolutely fucking despise people like that...
I am a surfer first and foremost, but I've climbed enough, and been lucky enough, to have had some exposure to a few climbers who, though they wouldn't admit it, were at an elite level in the sport. I must say that I did catch a whiff of the territorial/ethics thing, not on the receiving end but hearing the chatter around the campfire among the good climbers about this and that. I would also be asked about surfing's localism phenomenon, and I struggled to find parallels amongst the climbers. I always had the opinion that if resources in rock climbing became as scarce as they are in surfing, then climbers would behave the same way and climbing areas would have localism too. Of course the climbers would reject this notion, with the position that climbers are often stewards of nature, had ethics, were more respectful and peaceful, and so on. So I had to chuckle when Hans Florine mentioned surfing... To me, what went on around the first ascent is substantially and entirely identical to surf localism. It is cliquish thuggish behavior that goes far beyond what would be appropriate to the reasons they give to justify their actions. There's a difference between telling someone they're being unsafe or disrespectful of ethics, and using those virtuous motivators as excuses to choose to dislike and exclude outsiders. Most of the time the things that are done are far beyond appropriate for their given reason. You'll have a few real bullies surrounded by a large crew of simpering enablers who just want to belong. Hearing Steve Grossman talk about the route getting chopped reminded me of so many of the simpering enabler type I've known surfing. They wouldn't start anything or lead the threat but they'd be there in the background chattering. And later when they talked about their big goon friend pushing around that kook from down south or whatever, and saying yeah they were being unsafe and in the way, they would all have the same smirk Steve had. Like he was really thinking about the funny stuff that was said around the campfire after the guys that chopped the route got back. Thank goodness I learned long ago that these groups who claim things of nature as their own have built among themselves towers without foundations, and are best ignored.
When you add reincarnation/rebirth to this localism equation you can understand why they turn so petty and their world so small. Imagine Steve looping on births in the same region again and again!
I don't think the surfing analogy holds in this case since noone was climbing it.
Never did. Never would attempt, but I was always fascinated by climbing. The gang mentality (“we own this rock”) thing caught me by surprise. Very engaging documentary.
I can't stand gate keepers like Steve Grossman. They totally put people off to different sports.
They ruin a lot of extreme sports, I don’t understand why gate keeping is such a problem I’m extreme sports. It’s like their being selfish and don’t want to share.
@@tomdiets5079 I'm retired at more than one [multiple] 'extreme sports'. We can pass on the LORE (tips and wrinkles, myths and legends), but we are not 'the' LAW (Dictators).
I'm out of Paintball, Bungee, Skates and SkateBoards, occasionally I found myself relieved that safety (ropes especially) was a 'thing' in other things I dabbled with that I'm NOT considered expert in, so, yes, there is always going to be a better opinion on every decision you make ... after the fact, but watch out always for anyone EARNING A LIVING out of being an 'expert' on things they haven't actually got a proven [to peers] record in.
sounds like a real prick must be from the comments I guess I won't have a beer with that guy reputation means something
me to and I just started watching this fuck that guy 😅
exactly I'm going fishing to be safe not stuffing fish with wieghts to win a tournament that guy smiling all the time would so I'll keep an eye 👁🗨 out
It's always nice to see petty jealousies get put to rest. Respect to both parties of climbers for persevering and achieving their objective. Some people are talkers and some people are doers.
Ammon's brother seems like a nice dude
The harassment they received is the kind of harassment you receive from a bunch of losers who think they are in a position of authority. That so call historian in reality is the chief loser.
He's like a foamer of rock climbing lol
Richard and mark definitely didn’t deserve that. Seems like locals were just pretty insecure.
Steve Grossman, what a tool. They owe you nothing.
steve grossman could never climb wings if steel
I’m not a climber or mountaineer, but have participated in my share of extreme sports through my lifetime. I admit before I knew anything about it I was astounded by Honnold’s‘s first free solo, and therefore got very hooked on the observer level and started watching these videos.
My take away from a non-participant perspective.
I would add that the whole Yosemite world would be 1000 times better if everyone were more supportive of each other rather than acting arrogant and saying “I was here first, and you have no right to be here.” Bottom line is, anyone who has the courage and fortitude and skill to climb that rock has the right to be there.
This Grossman, some self-styled "historian", issuing a fatwa against Jensen snd Smith claiming they had to obey his and his sect claiming they hadn't shown enough respect by not doing the "correct" prearation is a piece of shit.
Out of curiosity do you know anything about Grossman, outside of the way he unfortunately presents himself in this film? And yes I will be the first to point out that he comes across very poorly in his comments and his clear deep seated, long held onto, resentment over dog knows what in this film (he may very well be playing the part of the "villian" for the sake of dramatic tension in the film to make it seem more compelling, granted its well known that these are in fact his deeply held beliefs and opinions about this incident).
I was a total novice on El Cap once and was jugging slowly/inefficiently out of a belay station on the Nose when Hans Florine (the 2020s version with gray hair) and his partner jetted up to the anchor I just left. He looked at me, smiled and said "you gotta get faster with that". Honestly if I got to that skill level, some of it might get to my head and I wouldn't be so kind to a slow gumby jeopardizing my NIAD ascent. Hans really is a super nice guy and emblematic of modern climbers (kind and non-confrontational). Steve, on the other hand, represents a mentality that has thankfully died off in the Valley. There are enough climbers out here that you can't possibly know everyone, and no one person has enough influence to shit on/cut down the ropes of another.
27:45 climbing south seas as a first successful wall is nuts! For those who aren't familiar with it, it is an A4 route that starts in the alcove, near where the Free Dawn Wall starts (just as a reference point) and as such is very committing given the steep nature of the start.
Climbing is such a soulful experience, I can't understand anyone who would treat a fellow climber with violence and animosity. It's an art when people climb. Fuck the "local" mentality.
Grossman is a disappointment. Typical bully. Find yourself in a 'community' and then protect your membership in that community by viciously keeping others out. What gives you the right to decide who gets to climb any rock they want in a national park? These parks, and the rocks in them, belong to all Americans.
I wanna agree but some people slam up some pretty heinous insecure routes with some mega dodgey installed protection. So I can get some of it if that was the case at the time you don't want people dying attempting to do a route and trusting pro they shouldn't especially considering it is more than locals climbing in yosemite. I don't necessarily agree with bullying but this doc felt like everyone involved had crazy inflated ego's they way they talked about themselves.
Locals who can’t stand that “outsiders” didn’t ask for permission. Typical horse sh!t found in local climbing communities. The locals couldn’t stand that outsiders were able to do this route without “local” ownership permission. Steve Grossman single-handedly caused this entire incident. His arrogance, self-importance, and Yosemite god-complex is the real problem. There’s no doubt in my mind that he was one of the three that chopped the route initially.
Ammon and Lalo must have had a lot of fun as kids running around the hills.
Steve making it hard to watch this.. Im cringing
This guy Steve is mentally ill. He's consumed 40 years of his life hating over a lie he told himself. It appears that his entire identity revolves around that. To me, it strongly suggests that Steve has thrown away his entire life over envy and jealously. He come off like a very disturbed man to me.
That God for people like.Ammon.Who thru big wall climbing,lives life to the fullest.Arhh mates.
Mommy, they’re on my rock again!
Got copletely hooked by this documentary
😉
This is a good documentary. The sound track/score is cool too.
43:23 I understand an incredibly idealistic young person, who is unbelievably naive due to a lack of life experience, having this attitude about two other people’s lives… but guy has got be 60 & he’s still this irrationally upset?
I can’t figure out if he really is that pathetic, or if still having that kind of hatred at his age over (let’s be really honest here) a goddamned rock, is just incredibly sad.
I enjoyed this film. Didn't get the Grossman vibe at all. What's the big deal? I am a surfer and I get it when a good wave is forming and people compete to get it. The rock is just sitting there. You can wait five minutes and do the climb with no need to compete. People criticize surfing but they don't understand the fleeting nature of it and the forced time table of Go Now or miss it. Sometimes that leads to crashes and poor choices in the heat of the moment. I love climbing because it is the opposite. Just wait a little bit and the climb is all yours. Some people I will never understand. Ron Kauk comes off as such a cool thoughtful guy. I have met him and he is exactly that, a total cool cat. Grossman could learn a thing or two from him.
I must be missing something… why does Grossman seem to believe that his viewpoint means anything or that anyone should care an iota whether he ‘respects’ them? He has nothing to do with this climb - has he achieved anything noteworthy in climbing at all?
His ‘historian’ moniker also seems to be self-appointed, presumably on the basis that he remembers climbing-related things from a long time ago, which is not what an actual historian is. He appears to have no academic footprint, in any field, anywhere.
He also might have considered keeping a bottle of water nearby during his interview; his sticky teeth and lips detract considerably from his already unpleasant presentation.
And he's the antithesis of fun.
Total respect for the people who have climbed the route. The rest? Insecure posers. No body owns these faces. As long as damage is not being done you either can, or cannot, see a line. You either can, or cannot climb the line. The rest is schoolyard politics.
It’s seems to me, that it’s a free rock anyone can climb. For the clique of the valley climbers I say,kick rocks, you don’t own El Cap…they can climb anything, anyway…
I would add that the whole Yosemite world would be 1000 times better if everyone were more supportive of each other rather than acting arrogant and saying “I was here first, and you have no right to be here.” Bottom line is, anyone who has the courage and fortitude and skill to climb that rock has the right to be there.
Aww someone’s poor ego got shattered. If it was so important, why didn’t Steve go prove his theory 30 years ago. Instead he let it eat brain cells all that time.
Thanks for this superb film.
I've been climbing my entire life, I first came to Yosemite (from Norway) in 1981, and on that visit I used a _single_ placement comparable to what both the first and second ascensionists had to do for _every_ move on that slab.
The route was on Quarter Domes and I needed a single piece of aid to reach into the bottom of a perfect splitter crack, so the only option I found was the smallest size RP, placed sideways between two quartz crystals on the surface. It did hold my weight (I'm 59 kg), but when my climbing partner Dag (who was about 3 kg heavier) followed, the RP came out.
I'm just trying to image doing stuff as insecure as that, for move after move and pitch after pitch, and I realize that I really cannot image what kind of mental fortitude that would require.
John Bachar once offered 10k to any climber that could follow him around for a day. Steve, I’m sure the climbing community could rustle up 20k for you to do the 3rd ascent of Wings of Steel-without drilling of course. It would be good so you can get your facts straight, from a historical perspective.
Wow!! Horrible treatment… and sad how they blame the people being disrespected! Smh
As a climber of 15 years I’ve seen allot of gatekeeping, I believe this was a major reason for the backlash they received.
Eric Kohl and the bald guy are totally wrong . No one owns El Cap . Thank god Ammon made it all make sense !!!
Elitist a-holes f up every sport. El Cap is an amazing formation as well as those who have climbed it whether free or aid
Steve Grossman is a waste of earth's gravitational pull.
Not your mountain, Steve lol
So no condemnation of the shit-throwing and bullying bt this Grossman.
After watching Alex Honnold Docs. For 2 days... I can't understand the petty b.s. of some holes drilled in a mountain big enough that their route may never be repeated...
Fantastic film. Brilliantly made story
The balding guy with the earring is still so angry and bitter, it comes as really childish.
Gabe would make a good movie star , someone should offer him a role .
He certainly has all the attributes of a screen icon.
Cool dudes those brothers , that’s for sure.
Jealousy is an ugly trait, no one owns anything especially not other people! If you disagree with their method just move along and do it yr way, yr own route. Get over yrselfs😂 big babies.
I'm just happy to have an El Cap film that "doesn't" include Honnold or Caldwell
I understand that there are people who are extremely negative, envious, violent, dishonest ............... but I don't understand how it is possible for the majority of people in one climbing community to take on such a character and abuse two people just because they are good climbers and mind their own business. Is this typical of the American climbing community, or things like this have happened elsewhere?
Because of elitist weasel turds like Steve Grossman who was probably just jealous of them. That is how he sounds anyhow. 🤣
Eh from what I hear these guys drilled over 100 hook placements into the face and installed dodgey pro intentionally to make an intentionally dangerous climb and really aren't the bastion of noble climbing representatives this "documentary" tries to paint them as. There are reasons why people don't apply for permits for this route even over 30 years later.
I’ve read enough climbing history to know (a) what’s considered “unethical” in one generation-say, aid-climbing by the use of pitons (and, later, bolts)-is usually accepted by the next generation, and (b) new-generation climbers generally have the grace _not_ to deride earlier climbers because the latter couldn’t do climbs in as good style as modern climbers can. The _Wings of Steel_ kerfuffle shows just how far one can be out of touch with the history.
Great documentary
Remarkable video
RIP Ammon
Wow...I had no idea what small-minded snobs some of these 'big wall climbers' can be. Can't they just be happy for someone else's success? It's just a sport, not a religion. Get over yourself.
that UPS driver is a bad ass
Too bad the locals didn't see the vision when Ruchard and Mark chose their line.
Outstanding
SUCHA AN EPIC HISTORY! HAIL WINGS OF STEEL!!!
Amazing.> thank you!
Lol all these old timer gate keepers literally kept the sport from progressing. Props to them for shitting on all those guys and sending the fcking route. All those idiots couldn't dream of sending that thing.
In the end , what was highlighted is that the two men that ascended it for the first time are honest good humans , well done
And that Steve Grossman is flawed human who suffers immensely living in his own , a skin that is full of malice , jealousy, anger and lies
Eh, I would actually look up the entire story and not a biased documentary. Which this 1000% is it leaves out a lot of stuff.
the dick mesuring contest that went on and on on Supertopo for years finally got a break when El Cap Pirate did the second ascent but Steve G never shut up and continued to prove he was the king of jerks at his chosen profession of gatekeeper of his inflated ego.
Before the Pirate flew to the great beyond he also did an amazing job of holding his shit together after nearly severing a foot on his other jump that did not end well yet in hindsight not as bad as his l final flight
RIP Ammon
People find excuses not to climb a route. Curiously, most routes that are avoided are desperate, be they beautiful or ugly. Not like this climb is isolated way out in the back country. This stuff about outsider and insider is total crap. Anyone trying a climb is a CLIMBER.
Reminds me of Baseball purists. Horrible gatekeepers desperately clinging to the idea that their way of thinking is the only right way.
This is the embarrassing part of extreme sports, the people that do them are these chill acting people acting that try and put off this live and let live attitude but they totally don’t live by this motto.
There are those who can't who teach, and then there are those who can't teach but make up a bunch of nonsensical rules to impede others, IOW Steve. I'm sorry, are you really going to remember how many holes you drilled on a first ascent?
So sad. Egos gone wild
steves attitude makes me way more angry than any youtube documentary has a right to what an absolute clown
I’Wow, if ever someone grew in to their name is Steve GROSSman. What a thoroughly unpleasant, bitter, lonely man he comes across as. Get a life and move on . Congrats two all the climbers on the first and second assent and shame on those who tried to cause them harm and danger - they should have been banned from climbing worldwide, you don’t need people like that it what is already a dangerous sport. Oh and I’m no climber, just a human being who enjoys watching and learning about climbing and who isn’t monstrous to other humans.
Ammon!
Misery loves company... evidently Grossman is a double entondre.
There's a lot of poop 💩 involved with this sport, I think I'll stick to bowling.😮
No one had a complaint when Tommy Caldwell spent years bolting and working on the Dawn Wall. No one said a word. Why these guys?
Good question?
Because literally no one really climbs the dawn wall. It is almost a blank slate and the route caldwell took. Took like one of the best climbers months to finish. This is on the most popular wall with the most popular routes and is a literal death trap. Like there was shit all the way round but these dudes really aren't any better like this doc tries to paint.
Free climbing almost everything... but Lynn Hill won by actually free climbing EVERYTHING....
OMG Who Cares! It's a Goddamn Rock that people climb. Who gives a shit how its done. All the shit goin on in this world and this is the crap people are worried about.
I am cursed to do just about every hobby. Most people obsess over 1-2 hobbies but I rotate non stop. What I know is anything that has this level of dedication where it becomes someone’s entire identity you then have terrible behavior more often. Anything that is dangerous , cave diving , motorcycles, climbing , it’s always got this larger group of douche bags attached to it.
If you can't join em' try to beat em' ?
They probably met Alex Honold halfway up doing jumping jacks while eating a sandwich
I couldn't finish this. Babies.
Steve G - embarrassing.
How childish.
someone climbed el cap in 2 hours with no ropes boys... beat that are stop with the drama.
Alex Honnold.
This is a very confusing documentary unless you already know the backstory. Who is “we” and who is who and what did the climbers do wrong?
Agree. I don't know anything about the story and it completely didn't make sense. Very poorly explained documentary. What was the controversy.?
What a lame video.
Thank you, very few seem to understand this.
I was there,lived in camp4,on the rescue site. The narratives in their book and this movie leave out very key details, and in doing so, the two have been able to smear the entire rescue team, etc.
And of course, the person who pooped on their ropes after chopping their first two pitches gets praised for apologizing while others who had nothing to do with that get smeared to this day.
@@johnwaters4566 Yep. I was there, I lived in Yosemite for a very long time, 8 years on rescue site.
The real story of how it all blew up into a controversy hasn't been in the public domain. Even the SuperTopo threads never had the actual explanation of how and why it got ugly.
I know, and it's pretty simple.
So what is it? Tell us.
@ 12:26 gives me pucker flashbacks about hooking
Steve is a foamer
até espuma da boca, parece que esta a cuspir odio 1:07:37 ^^
Foam comes out of his mouth, looks like he is spitting hate 1:07:37 ^^
Envy much?
No way!
No one talks about the religious prejudice? The first ascent pair were Mormons. Ammon was brought up a Mormon.
Seems like a reach idk
If you read the book Camp 4 it talks about how the other climbers thought Mormons were weird
Honestly, they evidently didn’t want to make it about their religion or they would have said something about this, they did say that they didn’t climb on the sabbath. It’s not being prejudice because they aren’t talking about other religions they just decided to not bring up religion because it’s a freaking climbing documentary. If you think this is religious prejudice I think you need to relax and stop thinking everyone and everything is about religion, not everyone lives like you and I’m saying this as a religious person myself.
@@mikes3756well yeah they are weird so what?
I was repeating an explanation of why they were disliked and ostracized by the regular climbing community and why their climb was considered by the community as illegitimate
Can someone please tell me what the girl that was Ammon did?
She keeps saying "we".
She laid down the entire time.
BS imagine you did same to those so called locals