Fitting Stay Alive Capacitors at Chadwick Model Railway | 116.
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- Опубліковано 27 вер 2024
- Fitting a Stay Alive Capacitor at Chadwick Model Railway.
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Perfect timing, I can watch this while ‘doing’ my work so I’m not bored out of my mind.
Your not a surgeon are you Dan?
Same, home school sucks
@@edwardmortimer2150 It sure does
@@ChadwickModelRailway 0
This is a fun watch for model railway and electronics nerd.
I suggest for help in the soldering and ensuring no dry joints get a soldering iron stand to hold the iron when not needing it. More importantly these come with a sponge so that when you start up you can steam clean your iron, even when working on a DMU! And a quick clean between each joint to remove flux residues and black gunk. Also it is better to tin the pads with a little heat, flow should be good into each corner thanks to the gold plating, you should not transfer solder via the iron as this degrades the flux
Hi John, the stand and cleaning pad are both dust out of shot. But you make some good points. Regards Charlie
Nice to see not everyone wants to rip you off, by providing good service encourages further purchases etc at a loss to those not wanting to help. Another good quality, honest and easy to follow video.
Thanks Kev, that’s very kind of you to say so.
Hello Charles, I just went searching on "Stay Alive Capacitors For Model Railways". I was shocked at the ridiculous prices for what is a capacitor or two set on a circuit board. These components are not expensive. All they do is sit across the power supply, charge up and discharge when the power is removed, they are a passive device.
As for that company saying you can only use their brand of "stay alive" well what a croc. I would suggest any modelers out there, to consult with any fellow modelers who happen to be electronic enthusiasts or professionals who can help. I don't like seeing people get ripped off, because they are not familiar with electronic components.
A fair point SS. SA’s might be a luxury for some but for 0-4-0 modellers, they can be a life saver.
@@ChadwickModelRailway Yes, and this why if there are any modelers with electronic expertise, then maybe they can help others and save people money.
Thirty four pounds for a capacitor that costs just a few pence is just robbery, from my perspective.
@@channelsixtysix066 You can easily add simple capacitors (with a resistor and diode to limit charge current) for a pound or two. But I suspect the 3-wire stay alives you’re describing use multiple SuperCaps, which are closer to small batteries in function and are a lot more expensive. Those are switched by the third (white) wire so are not entirely passive devices. Simple capacitor stay alives are so low cost that it probably isn’t worth their while making and selling. If you need help with simple capacitor stay alives, let me know.
Miniturisation (spelling??) over the years is so helpful. I tried this about 30 years ago with some resistors, caps, diodes etc from my junk box and no dcc (what!!!!) and just the homemade 12V DC transistor controller. Yep it worked but the cover didn't fit. The capacitor itself was 40mm long by about 15 mm in diameter. !!!!! I gave up. Now my layout is down and I am looking at moving to DCC on a new layout. Chip numbers etc are going to be hard to remember. Thanks Charlie for your videos. I couldn't understand what "stay alive" was until I saw you fitted one. My first meeting at a club is this week. Apprehensive to say the least.
Good luck Phil, clubs can be difficult for the first couple of visits. Regards Charlie
Thank you Charlie for your videos, they are very interesting ! I wish they had been available 20 years ago when I was actively involved in building a swiss style HO layout, complete with two Spirals, two Reverse Loops and Lenz DCC ! Your videos have shown me just how many mistakes I made and how I could have avoided many of them. A real modeling education.
I’m so pleased that you enjoy the channel. I do try and keep it varied.
Regards Charlie
The original intent of a stay-alive was for sound decoders. Every time you hit an electrical dark spot, your sound decoder would reboot and thus play the "startup" sequence when power came back to the loco. With a stay alive, you could ride over that area, while keeping power to the decoder so it wouldn't reboot.
Yes very true. I had to do this with my original Hornby Class 08. The sound loss was dreadful.
Regards Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway looked to me there was a slight hesitation when power was pulled.
I really appreciate the non-edited reference to notes... don’t know whether it’s the ‘professional amateur’ or the ‘amateur professional’ but it’s just right.
It’s honesty and accuracy that matter in my book (excuse the pun).
Or perhaps an enthusiastic amateur!
@@ChadwickModelRailway an enthusiastic professional amateur. And a top bloke.
Charlie, When it comes to modal railways there's nothing new under the sun. In 1968 the magazine Modal Railway News had a 2-part article from Pendon Museum about their coaching stock and the problems they had with the light's flickering in the carriages.To correct this problem they were installing a Capacitor into the van part of a Brake coach. They then wired the whole " rake" upto the the brake van and cured the lighting problems. If I remember correctly the Capacitor was more industrial in size than the versions we have today.Cheers, Chris Perry.
What a great comment Chris.
Regards Charlie
Excellent video as always Charlie, and very helpful. As an engineer new to this malarkey, your videos on technical aspects of rail modelling are incredibly helpful!
Just a hint on technique for beginners (I have been soldering electronics for 45 years). Wipe the iron tip clean on a damp sponge. Tin _both_ parts to be soldered. Apply heat with the iron until the part is up to temperature, then melt solder onto the part, not the iron. Hold the tinned wire to the tinned pad, heat both with the iron and make the joint. If you need a touch more solder, add it to the opposite side of the joint to where you hold the iron, and let the solder flow through the joint towards the iron. Remove the iron and hold the wire still for a second while the solder solidifies. When you’ve finished soldering for a time, melt a little solder onto the iron tip to protect it from oxidation, but wipe that off before soldering again.
I’m so pleased you enjoyed the videos, Mark, and many thanks for your advice. Regards, Charlie
Charlie, Nicely explained and demonstrated. Being an old clanky any videos on electronics are much appreciated.
That’s very nice of you to say so Kevin. Regards Charlie
I bought a 2nd hand 3MT last year and found out the hard way that it had a stay alive in it. I dont understand how, but the thing keeps going for around 10 seconds, sometimes more. I had a short circuit and the power cut out but the MT carried on.....and on. I quickly took it off the track and put it on the floor, and it kept on going! It's not a problem to me now as I know it's there and manage it accordingly but at the time I thought I had bought a possessed loco! Great video as usual Charlie. Thanks.
A great comment Wayne. That’s the problem with capacitors with only two cables. If you noticed mine had three, and therefore had managed to power and will stop when you hit the emergency stop button. Furthermore, you can turn down the amount of time that it will run.. Regards Charlie
In America I believe those are mostly used in large cities mostly on either coast with Chicago being the exception. Historically when they were introduced cars and buses also were introduced and allowed more freedom. So in most of America EMUs don’t exist. We model what we experienced (however I believe the PPR GG1 and the DRG Flying Goose are tres chic). Still doesn’t mean that you didn’t produce yet another stellar video. Crack on (by the way what the hell does that mean anyway). Cheers was the West side of the pond!
Thanks Ken for a US view of the subject.
@@ChadwickModelRailwayFor a short while in the 20th century we had what were called “Inter-Urbana.”’ A single car used for transporting people and goods short distances. GM (buses) drove them (no pun intended) out of business. It is still a part of American railroad history.
what an enjoyable sense of humor.... really enjoyed this (thank you)
Thanks Kev, regards Charlie
I don't do DCC but I find that there is always something to learn from your videos. Excellent work keep it up.
Thanks Gordon, I’m so pleased that you found it interesting. Regards Charlie
Yes to the home made stay alive please
It’s on the list Ed.
It's not just Bachmann not marking their pins. Last night I fitted sound to a Roco, Heljan and an MCK loco. NONE of them had any pin numbering. I guessed the first 2 right but had to swap the last one around. Not bad considering the odds. Now the MCK runs perfectly, the Roco runs but has no sound (could be the speaker) and the Heljan doesn't run at all (never has before) although the sound chip is recognized and programs OK (maybe I damaged it by trying to send DCC through it without a DCC chip before). Onwards and upwards as Charlie would say... (something to look at tonight - yay). Still a great show you are putting together!
I’m so pleased that you enjoy the channel. Sadly there are very few manufacturers who produce decent technical data for us to follow! Regards Charlie
Been following your excellent videos Charlie and they have rekindled my boyhood love of trains. Have decided to build a layout but only have 4.5m x 2.0m so nothing to elaborate. Things have developed so the technology will be a real challenge!
It’s great to have you back on board Richard. Regards Charlie
Cool....I have a few esu version clasic sound chips which are over 20 years old...still work fine..no big deal if its not a v4 v5 ...stil sound to my ears...
Nice install on the cap...
Thanks Hovermotion, I’m so pleased that you found it interesting. Regards Charlie.
One of the best tools for removing body clips is a feeler gauge. They are used for car sparkplug gaps. I normally use 2 together.
A great tip Philip. I had thought of using them. Regards Charlie
Stay alive are great, the bigger the capacitor the better
But does yours stop when you press the emergency stop button? Regards Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway depends on the setting on the chip and the size of the capacitor , but I have had now problems with stopping
Hello Charlie! Thanks for the great video. Another one on home made stay alives would be nice indeed, thank you very much!
Then I will Certainly tackle it in a week or two. Regards Charlie
Thanks Charlie. It has been interesting even though I am not into DCC. As far as dis-assembling and re-assembling locos, I made a total bodge of a 2P when taking the body off and managed to break the wires for the front bogie pick ups.
I totally understand Don. I seem incapable of dismantling your logo without ending up with a bag of broken bits! So please don’t feel that you’re alone on this one, regards Charlie
"Ah, ah, ah, ah, stay-alives, stay-alives".
Not your favourite commodity then Bill? Regards Charlie
I sense a Bee-Gees fan.
Me thinks Charlie missed the link.
🤣
Not at first Bill, bit of a Tragedy!
Always enjoy your videos Charlie. Thank you.
Thank you Charles, it’s great to have you on board. Regards Charlie
I've been building my own for a while. Works great. I use it both for lights in passenger cars, tail lights, and on decoders.
I’m clearly behind the curve on this one Doc. Regards Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway Since I switched to DCC, I tried to DIY as much as possible. Arduinos, servos, LEDs, resistors and capacitors.
@Strathpeffer Junction has a great video about DIY keepalives. He does it exactly like I do. ua-cam.com/video/S2BmPiurl-0/v-deo.html
Thank you that was useful to know, hadn't thought about the need to fit the stay alives but after the explanation and demo can see the benefits
I’m so pleased that you found it interesting Chris. Regards Charlie
I fitted a Zimo MX648R which fits in the decoder square above the motor, a sugar cube speaker underneath trimming some of the components slightly to make space and a Digitrains 6-18sec stay alive in the first set of seats out of sight. Very reliable running. More stay alive flexibility with Zimo sound decoders. Enjoyed the video as always.
Thanks for letting me know Simon. If you press your Emergency Stop, does it keep going?
@@ChadwickModelRailway
Hi Charlie, I've got a Gaugemaster wireless system and yes it stopped straight away but the sound obviously kept going. I'm happy to send you pictures of the installation if your are interested.
Keep alive's do look handy.
Yes very, for poor design issues.
You stay alive forever Charlie, great informative entertainment. Love it!
You’re too kind David.
I like the Gaugemaster decoder & stay Alive due to them having a plug and socket arrangement for connecting the two together (no soldering)
You’re clearly not a lover of soldering then Richard. Regards Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway I have to solder every day at work so try to do as little as possible at home
Now that makes sense.
US modeler here. I feel stay alive capacitor packs are essential for sound units. Sound quickly goes from being a good thing to a bad thing if the sound keeps cutting out while switching a seldom used spur. While there are some downsides, they seem minor issues compared to the huge upside of having them in your locomotives. Having one in a small sound equipped switch engine working a complex industrial trackage is a night and day difference versus not having a stay alive. I've been making my own custom capacitor packs for older decoders that do not have dedicated plugs or connections for stay alive packs. There is a lot of documentation online about where you can make the connections. And it really does make for a world of difference on the older decoders.
I think you’re bang on the money FF. I need to go through my loco fleet one of the time and upgrade to decent stay alives . Regards, Charlie
Having only one modern loco that was DCC ready (easy fit). And a Hornby 0-6-0 DCC fitted. The rest of my locos were just DC, so I had to wire them, learnt a lot especially how not to do it, ruined a couple of decoders. But I’m better with it now, don’t know which decoders are good, bad or ugly though lol. But I’m learning. Great video though, loved how you unintentionally broke the plastic parts it’s so easy to do.
I’m so pleased that you found it interesting Barry. Yes, taking these things apart is fraught with the possibility of damaging them. Something I feel obliged to do! Regards Charlie
Charlie. Yes please would like to know more, especially as I'm starting to looking to standardise chips etc. Info, as offered, on producing a 'home made' stay alive would be most interesting and informative from my point of view, please.
Rest assured Bob, the research is coming together. Regards, Charlie
Another great video, thanks Charlie. You must need a steady hand for those soldering jobs
Thanks William, I do find soldering electronic circuit boards difficult.
Regards Charlie.
Very helpful Charlie. The irony is that for we steam guys the locos most likely to need stay alives are probably the smallest and least likely to have much space. So size is important. To answer your question about future videos one on Zimo would be very welcome. Also DCC Concepts - who of course also now make Rails decoders so any info on compatibility would also be welcome. And Digitrax decoders? Thanks again and keep up the good work.
I’m so pleased that you found it interesting Barry. Yes I will revisit decoders again in the not too distant future. Regards Charlie
Another great video full of info. I recently went to American O scale, their stay alive are 9V rechargeable batteries mounted in the loco.
Now that’s a great idea RR
Hello again Charlie, yet another video where I know nothing about what is going on, it reminds me of when I would watch The Open University before the kids programs started 😅👍🏻
I seriously wondered if anyone was going to offer me slimline salad dressing with this one. Still great to watch though.
I’m sorry the video wasn’t to everyone’s taste. Regards Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway no, it was fine 👍🏻👍🏻
@@ChadwickModelRailway It's great to watch something that's a bit above my head, it just encourages more learning!
Hi Charlie, a most informative video on stay alive capacitors ,this as cleared up a few questions for me .A few weeks ago when making your hillside ,you placed some flexible fencing along the top edge of the rock face, you were not sure where you got them from ,just a quick line to tell you that they can be obtained from PECO, NUMBER LK -85 flexible field fencing 1080 mm long for around £5 .I do enjoy your videos and I love the humour in presenting it, look forward to the next one. Regards Kevin.
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed the videos Kevin. Yes I have also found the Peco number regarding the fencing. Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie I'm using a mixture of Dcc Chips including Two dreaded Hornby TTs Chips
but as I'm on a budget if i convert a Dc ready Loco to Dcc I use Laisdcc Chips with Stay alives in both 8 pin and 21 Pin Chips for their price they all work well and give me over 5 Seconds of running time.
Will check the Timing later when i get the chance as my Layout is covered in Scenic Building. materials .I Know we never finish building.
I have now replaced my Gaugemaster Omni Chip with a Laisdcc 4 function chip with the Very Small Stay Alive in my New 08 Bachmann the performance is far better no matter how much I played with the Cv's on the Gaugemaster Dcc Chip.I can now get 6 seconds of Stay Alive straight out of the Box.
Hope this helps
A sound plan Chris.
As always, a lot of very good information given here, thanks Charlie.
From my experience:
- ESU & Zimo decoders are electrically pretty robust. Despite occasionally getting the connections wrong, I've never actually destroyed one.
- The 'joy' of 12 inches of Stay Alive on the Test Track, quickly turns to dismay when it derails on the layout and demolishes 12 inches of painstakingly made lineside scenery! Keep the distance as short as possible to just get over the 'bad bits' on the track. Remember too that, the train also 'stays alive' after you've hit the Emergency Stop on the controller.
- If you want 'fun running trains' rather than 'fun with electrical experiments' use the Stay Alive from the manufacturer of the decoder.
- you made three references to the inadequacies of manufacturer's Instructions, this "gets my goat" too. The 'Big Three' are the worst and there's no excuse for it
I’m so pleased you found it interesting Brian. Of course adjusting the amount of time that the stay alive runs is only achievable on the capacitors with three cables. I am unsure whether you are right about the stop command halting the locos progress but I will certainly check it out. Regards Charlie
Yes, home made stay alives would be good.
I've made some huge capacity versions that should take my loco nearly a metre.
It's more a just in case basis rather than really needing it.
That’s great news. Which decoders have you attached them to?
Regards Charlie
Best presentation on Keep Alives thus far! Most of my fleet have either the ESU or the TCS versions.
Glad you enjoyed it E50.
Hi Charlie,
Always valuable to view your videos.
My setup is DC, involving several InsulFrog points. My main track layout only requires engines to move forward, despite there being four different routes that they can take, by means of adjusting the points with a pseudo random Arduino program.
I have one steam engine, which I love, but which is temperamental when crossing points. I decided to forfait its ability to go backwards, in order to enhance its ability to go forward.
To this end, I cut the positive wire to the Motor & inserted 2 (40V 1A) Schottky Diodes in series
(Pickup - + x - + Motor), this allows positive power only to go to the motor, with a voltage drop of 0.4 volts, which is not critical on my layout. I then connected 3 (16V 470μF) Tantalum Capacitors in parallel, with the positive side joined to "x", (the midpoint between the two Schottky Diodes) and the Negative side, joined directly to the Negative side of the Motor.
When put together neatly on a piece of circuit board, it makes a 25X10X5mm circuit, which is easy enough to find a home for, and will drive the engine for about 20mm.
If you feel inclined to mention this on your channel, I would be more than happy for you to do so,
Arthur
That’s absolutely fascinating Arthur. I do hope to mention it when I do my next stay alive video. Regards Charlie
Charlie yes please more info on Stay Alives please
It’s on the list John
Hi Charlie,
Another great, informative (and fun) video....so glad I didn't see an edit with a plastered finger after the scalpel came out!
It does strike me however, that the more advancements away from DC to DCC one goes, whilst some issues are solved new issues requiring new technologies crop up 😂 all of which leads to more complicated set ups and of course, more things to go wrong.
That being said, when it all works as it should, the results of being able to have realistic signalling and multiple trains running at different speeds and directions does bring the real life to the layout.
Really looking forward to seeing your layout progress further and see how it works in all it's glory!
Cheers,
Derek.
Thanks Derek, what a heartwarming comment. Regards Charlie
Great video Charlie. Thinking of doing the same to all of my loco's. Just have to figure out which one for each of them. Lol.
Clearly no small task William. Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie, some months ago I watched a video by Strathpepher Junction on how to install 'Stay alive' units on the TTS decoders, I was interested as I have some, they may be basic but are adequate for my garden layout. In the video drawings are produced to show the connection points on the chips.
I can confirm that the information is accurate as I have installed self-made stay-alive's in some of my loco's with good results, the chap who run the Junction has also shown how to make a simple Stay-alive, I used a diagram on one of DCC Concepts data sheets which used super capacitors, very effective. I do have a number of Hatton's decoders on loco's which are not going to be converted to sound and I am going to bight the bullet and have a delve into the circuitry to find where I can connect a stay-alive. Thanks once again for a very interesting and thought provoking video.
Thanks for the info Peter. I shall check out the video and save the diagrams.
Regards Charlie
I like to put keepalives in my switchers for better slow speed running over switchers. Usually don’t need much keepalive time on the cv settings to get the job done at most I use one second.
Thanks for the info MM.
Swann Morton. That's a new one on me. Looks more like a sword than a scalpel compared to our little Exacto blades.
I'd like to see stay alives do away with the need to power frogs altogether someday. Enjoy!
An interesting point Frank. Regards Charlie
Yes Charlie, I'd be interested in the home made Stay Alive units, as I was thinking of building my own than buying a pricey unit. The components alone if you shop around for the same cost would build a few Stay Alive units. Especially if have a lot of loco's etc that you wish to fit them on.
It's on the list John, Regards Charlie
what a faf Charlie couldn’t be bothered personally 😂😂😂😂❤️
But this DMU was useless otherwise Robert.
Hey charlie,
i have fitted sound in a couple of these DMUs now. If you were to revisit it, the best way i have found is to fit a ESU sugarcube speaker in the underframe.
When painted matte black they arent noticeable and you can feed the wires back up through the chassis to connect onto the decoder.
The speaker being outside of the bodyshell will allow it to sound much clearer aswell as not being visible.
stay alive wise - another option for ESU are the Train-O-Matic stay alives (pretty much the same as the ESU version)
They use the same 3 wire setup as the ESU powerpack and are very easy to setup with a couple CVs whilst being cheaper.
CV113 i believe set at the max (255) should give you about 3-4 seconds
The 2 wire stay alives such as lais can be used but the loco will mess about when programming which is a pain.
Remember also that for the Loksound V3.5 you need a 100 ohm speaker - difficult to find a goodun these days!
Good vid, cheers
Eric
A very interesting comment Eric. I must confess I wouldn’t mind a photo of the underside of that DMU with the sugar cube speaker fitted. Perhaps you could email me one to
Chadwickmodelrsileay @ gmail. Com.
Also what is the ESU part number for that speaker? Regards Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway check your facebook bud 👍🏼
Very helpful, thanks for this. A follow up would be splendid I wonder if they produce a stay alive for my grey matter... 😀
If only David.
thanks Charlie, another interesting video and yes, it is a pain when sound locos stall for a second and have to go through the full stiert up cycle.
regards
Gareth
I totally agree Gareth, which is what let me down this path to start with. Regards Charlie
If I may give you some advise: Next time you want to solder a wire to a copper pad (like the pads on the decoder), first apply some tin to the pad you want to solder. It will make life much easier, because the tin will "catch" the wire you want to solder on the pad, and the soldering itself will be much smoother and better :)
A good tip SW, regards Charlie
Great to see you again.. as always very informative..take care, like your pause after " however" lol
I’m so pleased that you found it interesting David. Regards Charlie
Another great one! Looking forward to more on stay alives, Charlie.
Thanks Michael, I shall revisit this subject in greater depth. Regards Charlie
Good job with the soldering, and not letting out the magic smoke! As an aside, the use of clips to attach loco bodies to chassis drives me nuts! Great for the assembly line, but so risky later on... Bring back screws.
Hi Chris, I totally agree with you, regards Charlie
Great vid Charlie, someone beat me to it with the "Staying Alive " Bee Fees gag. Tradgety. Regards Terry.
Sorry, but I cant think of a smug reply ...... yet.
Incredible how the hobby has evolved Charlie. I remember my first layout as a teenager, my Mum and Dad bought me a freight train set, my Grandparents bought me a passenger train set too. I put them both together to make one layout- it really was a "Mash-of-two-sets" !!!!!
For those looking for help in making DIY stay alives, and fitting them to decoders not normally intended for them, the Strathpeffer Junction channel has a two-part video series clearly showing what is needed, and how to go about it. If Charlie has made a video on this I’ve been unable to find it, but as an experienced electronics design engineer Charlie I would be pleased to guide you in making good recommendations to your viewers.
Thanks Mark, can I take you up on this offer in about a months time mate. Regards, Charlie
I use 680uf capacitors with a 1n40007 diode and 100ohm resistor, and repurpose the CAB light switch under the loco to CAP to switch it on and off
Now that clearly was a great idea. Regards Charlie
Repurposing the switch is a super idea! If you can get hold of 1N5819 Schottky diodes, they will perform a little better than the 1N4007s. Less voltage drop during discharge.
Hi Charlie
Fitting a stay alive to a Zimo chip with sound would be good. I have one to fit to a class 20 which as I am sure you know does not have a lot of room. The instructions are not good really for the connections for the speaker, and the stay alive. Great video as usual, thank you and keep safe.
Ian
That’s not always the case Ian. As I hopefully explained, ESU do explain in their manuals exactly how to solder on the stay alive capacitor.
I will attempt to fit the Zimo but poor technical documentation is unforgivable.
Thank you Charlie. Another very useful video. My slight disappointment was that you weren’t able to use the YouChoos product as that is my preferred decoder. You mentioned the possibility of doing a video on the Zimo decoder and that option has my vote. Thanks again. Tony
Sorry Tony but as you noticed, it just wouldn’t fit. However I have now had it re-blown and it will go into my Falcon a little later, along with the YouChoos capacitor. Regards Charlie
Interesting video Charlie, I enjoy watching your channel especially the technical side, which is beyond some of my understanding but you make it sound really simple to do and explain it very well. Keep up the good work !
I'm so pleased that you enjoyed it LangersTrains. Stay safe. Regards Charlie
I use the lais large stay alive and I get up to about 20 seconds running on the stay alive with soundtraxx sound decoders (not that it ever needs to run that long without track power but it makes a huge difference reducing the jerk on very slow starts on long freights when they first crawl)
When you hit the emergency stop button Steve does the loco still carry on? On the ESU decoders with stay alive, they stop. Regards Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway yes it stops straight away
@@ChadwickModelRailway plus on emergency stop on the sound locos it goes through the full rev back to idle then shutdown procedure
More videos on DIY stay alive please.
Okay Vic, it’s on the list
Interesting. I use stay-alives a lot, but I don't uise them for DMUs - I find that I get good reliability just by electrically connecting the two (or three) carriages together. I have an N gauge version of this very DMU and use the described technique on that to give good performance.
I’m pleased that you have good conductivity James, sadly not me in this case.
@@ChadwickModelRailway Gosh, you don't find that even inter-connecting the pickups on the two carriages by inter-vehicle electrical connexions produces reliable running...?
I don't know about that oarticula model but some bachmann DMUs have a pop out section in some of the seats for fitting speakers but it does remove some of the seats in the middle of the coach
Thanks Daniel, but I think this one is too old. Regards Charlie
Another reason for stay alive: Railcom simply works better. The decoder needs power to send signals "back". If it has this extra buffer, the timing regime of the "back-channel" works better, because of proper and not half backed ACKs. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Command_Control#RailCom Modern decoders can send back all kinds of data.
An interesting point Stephan, thank you, regards Charlie
A video on home made stay alive's would be great. I'm in the middle of making a home made 15000uF stay alive with a Zimo MX600R for my 35+ year old Hornby APT. Hoping it will make it run better over points at slow speed!
@David curtis because a home made one cost me about £4 or $5 and it’s a little bit of a challenge to make something rather than just buy it ready made. If you blow it up you haven’t wasted so much money.
@David curtis I was using a £20 Zimo chip in a 35 year old Hornby APT from my childhood. I think if you are converting old locos with a cheap decoder why spend as much again on a stay alive?
@David curtis I did. You said you didn’t know why people would want to make their own stay alive. I just gave you an example why. I’m sorry if I’m not allowed to use a cheap decoder in my train.
@@cramhurst4543 I'm with you. I've made a half dozen for lighted coaches for minimal cost. Good work Charley. Please do give one on home mades. I'm always looking to improve, even if its from the other side of the world
It's on the list David
Great video, as always
Thanks Edward, it’s great to have you on board
I have a couple of rather old tank engines I did a DCC conversion on, and they have a bit of a wobble to the point where they occasionally lose connection with the track. Their stopping and starting is a bit annoying and obvious, and one of them even blew the DCC decoder due to these stopstarts.
After watching this, I'm thinking these two would be ideal candidates for a stay alive circuit. The decoders I installed are Hornby R8249, so there are no official stay alive for them, but there is some info on the internet on how to make and install your own to it.
Producing your own stay alive capacitors isn’t really that difficult. The real problem is understanding where to solder them onto the decoder. That’s the information that you need to acquire from the manufacturer. Regards Charlie
Well, as mentioned, the Hornby R8249 doesn't officially support a stay alive circuit. From what I can tell looking at the circuit board, and some basic information I managed to find on the internet, the Red and Black wires connected to the wheel pickup feed into 2 parts of the circuit. The DCC signal decoder, and into a Bridge Rectifier to make a DC voltage (which we can presume powers everything).
All information I've found suggests you need to connect your "stay alive" across the DC output of the bridge rectifier.
The stay alive consisting of a capacitor (or several), with a Charging resistor (about 100 ohms, as not to draw too much current to charge the capacitor), and discharge diode (to allow everything to draw as much current as it wants). Other components (such as a zener diode across the capacitor to limit maximum voltage, or a high value resistor across the capacitor to discharge it when you're done using it) are optional.
As an electronic engineer, this all makes sense to me.
On the other side of the channel this would have been filled to the brim with electronics in both halves and cost at least 3 times as much...
How much space does the other part have inside to hide stuff in it? You could use a multi wire electrical coupler and use the other half for extra pickups and the capacitor pack. This would also free up the function decoder on that side.
Also, a Plux22 or Plux16 connector allows putting the capacitor anywhere on the pcb, so if you have one of these check the manual if one is fitted already
A very interesting comment IVO. I shall certainly look into the plux angle.
Cheers Charlie!
I'm so pleased that you enjoyed it Warren. Stay safe. Regards Charlie
Tha is Charlie for another great video
Thanks Jade, I’m so pleased that you found it interesting. Regards Charlie
Yes please make a video about home made stay-alives.
Okay mate, it’s on the list.
Is it not a matter of time before stay alives will be already installed by the factories and we merely pay that much more for locos with it ? Boy, nothing irks me more than stall-outs; more than even a derail ! Nice demo though. Thanks from Los Angeles. M
I think you’re right Mark, it’s just a matter of time really. Regards Charlie
Great video Charlie. Great information as well. I am tempted to go dcc but I only have an 8 ft by 4ft layout.
All in good time mate, regards Charlie
Hi Guys. I am 71, and last year moved to N Gauge DCC for just that reason. The layout is just 5 feet by 2.5 feet due to space restrictions but I have a complex station and hidden storage yard with sound locos, signalling and computer control. The loco performance is fantastic with realistic length trains and although my eyesight and dexterity is not what it was, I can manage and have great fun and a worthwhile hobby. I love your videos too Charlie. I would do anything for an 8x4 baseboard. :-). Keith
Nice work yet again! Charlie can you please do some more actual layout updates? I think they're the real 'meat' of our model railway hobby. Thanks! Rgds, Joachim
I try to keep the subject varied JP, something for everyone. Regards Charlie
Interesting that ESU think you would find the space for a large capacitor, and then decrease the time that it can support the decoder.
But I did notice that the shorter time ended cleanly, whereas the longer (longest?) time faded into brown-out, so that might be a reason.
Very useful interested in different stay-alive brands, designs, and costs, so more videos on those, please.
I’m so pleased that you found it interesting Tom. The 3 wire capacitors have the adjustable time facility which scores well in my books.
@@ChadwickModelRailway It doesn’t have to be on a decoder to be tested; many people use them on coaches to avoid light flicker. Easier to install and compare, and because of the constant load, relative assessment is also easier.
But, yes, seeing them installed (on similar locos) will be great. (I have a number of Terriers you could use... ;) )
Cheeky!
Hi having a go at making your own sounds good no pun intended
Then it’s on the list BVR
Charlie that was a real goodun. Or you could say "Power Packed" installment. I think you played to a capacitor crowd! You really get us thinking about these things and I for one always find it useful info.
One thing I noted that you mentioned was the term "pico farad". I'm not a wiggly amp type of chap but did you mean micro farad? Sorry to be picky. Cheers Will.
Yes will, and you’re not the 1st to notice either!
Poor service from the decoder suppliers who wouldn't help you out with Blowing an older chip! Well done Legomanbiffo for coming to the rescue!
Yes, it was a welcome development.
Charlie, Yet another good video. However it is for a limited group I feel (which I am not a part) I really enjoy watching your videos (even this one) I learn so much from them. Hopefully I will live long enough to be able to reprogram chips going into N scale engines. However I believe that the odds are in the favor of the grim reaper and the tax man (not enough time nor money).
Not to worry Ken, the next one is fiddle yard building. Regards Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway Regardless you are quite entertaining. Looking forward to fiddling around.
Another great video Charlie. Can you make a video showing how to add a suitable "keep alive" capacitor to the ESU Loksound v3.5?
I shall check out the decoder and see if it’s feasible.
Thanks Charlie for an interesting video as always, I do enjoy your projects and often able to take some useful guidance from them. As it happens, I have very recently (a couple of weeks ago) purchased and fitted my first stay alive. James at DCC Train Automation recommended a Train-o-Matic decoder and a stay alive to go with it. It’s the first time I’ve used a product from this company, and I have to say, I’m very impressed. I fitted them into a Heljan Class 33 and the performance is perfect from my point of view. Though I am wondering in retrospect, if I did really need a stay alive in this loco, but the point of the exercise was trying to get a loco set up successfully in iTrain as I’ve been having problems with the trains that I’ve so far tried to set up using various decoders, Hornby, DCC Concepts, ESU. All with varying amounts of success (or not !). But setting up this Heljan loco in iTrain with the Train-o-Matic decoder went like a dream - text book stuff as it were, this is a bit of a personal breakthrough and so I’ll need to rethink my decoder strategy for locos that I’ve already fitted with those various other decoders in the past. And for the record, I’d be interested in seeing a video about home made stay alive for when I get around to DCC fitting my “retro” locomotives from the stables of the likes of Lima, Hornby etc. But I do agree that it’s the right way to go to combine a decoder and stay alive from a single manufacturer. For me, that’s very likely to mean Train-o-Matic, at least for now ! Oh and one last comment, why do manufacturers make it so damn difficult to attach a stay alive by wrapping the solder pads in hard plastic ? I understand why they need to wrap the decoders to insulate and protect the components (don’t have a problem with that) but there really must be a better way to be able to connect a stay alive. I see DCC Concepts are soon to offer a plug in solution, surely that’s the way forward. Or maybe manufacturers could provide a plug in point for stay alives on the loco PCB. Sorry, just one more point ! I really struggled to find enough space in the Heljan Class 33 to be able to fit the stay alive and had to cut open the plastic insulation to fold the capacitor away from the stay alive PCB to reduce the overall height. Not ideal, but otherwise it simply wasn’t going to fit ! Manufacturers please note ! Stay safe Charlie.
Great comments Bryan. If you press your emergency stop, does your Class 33 keep going?
Hi Charlie, I’ve just popped down to my Model Railway room to do some experimenting for you. Firstly, I tried running the loco and hitting the red button - it did run on but not by much. Then I got a piece of track, joined it to the end of my current build with a rail joiner to one track only, so the section of track was unpowered. I ran the loco at a scale speed of approximately 40mph so that a sudden stop wouldn’t cause it to slide along the track by inertia. As the last axle ran into the unpowered section of track, it continued to run for about 75mm. I then looked at the manual for the Train-o-Matic Power Pack fitted to my Class 33 and found that, by adjusting CV123, the stay alive can be set to anything up to 4 seconds. So I set the CV to 128 which should give about 1 second stay alive. I ran the loco again at about 40mph onto the dead track section, this time it ran on for a mind blowing 256mm ! Goodness only knows what would happen if I set it to 4 seconds 🤣 Incidentally, I also tried the experiment with the headcode lights on - the effect was to reduce the run on distance from 256mm to about 170mm. Given that I’d never run the loco without the lights on, I suppose that’s the expected general distance I’ll get with CV123 set to 128 when running light engine. I intend to eventually run it with my 4-TC rake, will be interesting to see what difference it makes. I’ve recorded a little video to send you, but not sure how to get it to you. Fun stuff Charlie, and this Train-o-Matic kit is pretty impressive, I can’t recommend it enough ! Will definitely be getting more of these. The next train I’ll try is my Hornby 2-BIL unit that currently only has a Hornby decoder, I’ve been having problems getting it set up in iTrain, so look forward to seeing what improvements I can get. Take care mate.
Trains, Tech,, and tinker
But aren’t they lovely. Regards Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway yeah they are,thats what you could call these kind of videos, Trains,Tech, and Tinker 😁
Ver 3.5 I thought sounded good with the undersize speaker. I heard worse where the diesel sounds like a jet airplane, major reason I didn't go overboard with sound in my engines.
Rest assured John, they are getting better.
Loving the content. Just have a video idea: could you do a full layout tour because I can't find one on your Channel and it would be very helpful to understand what you're working on? Thank you 😊
Hi Wizz, my latest videos do contain the track plan which should help you to visualise the completed layout.
I would love to see a DIY on stay alive.
It’s on the list Gary.
@22:18 ahh, is the lady up front riding naked? LOL That brings a new preceptive to British rail.
No just a flesh toned one-piece jump suit.😜
And the old chestnut, you need a poor performer to test the track (worst case) so you can be happy the rest of the fleet will work ok.
A fair point and I have a few!
Charlie, Larry Puckett (The DCC Guy on UA-cam) did a video on making his own stay alives two months ago.
Thanks Mark, yes I have seen Larry’s videos. I shall also tackle making my own, but not attached to decent decoders!
Thanks Charlie. That took a bit more concentration from me to follow than usual, as it took me a while to figure out what the issue was in the first place. Still not sure I've got it. Is it that performance from that DMU was so poor, you felt it needed a stayalive, but you couldn't find room for the speaker and the capacitor, so had to take out the sound chip, and put it a new chip, to which you could then attach the stayalive?
I'd always assumed (being from a DC background) that the stayalive in a DCC loco just went between the pickups and the chip: I hadn't realised that the stayalive was actually programmable through the chip's CVs. That's rather cool! Strange that chip manufacturers don't make connecting stayalives easier: e.g. with plugs & sockets, or at least just leaving the connection tabs where you solder it to exposed, so you don't have to go through that carving off the shinkwrap plastic palaver.
I also now want to know what all the other tabs on that chip are for - clearly they must be there for you to solder on more wires for more gizmos.
I’m so pleased that you find it interesting Andrew. The extra tabs can be used for more lighting functions et cetera. Your assumptions on how the video progressed are correct, without room for the speaker I simply went for a decoder with the stay alive capacitor. Regards Charlie
Have you had a look at the Rails Of Sheffield's DCC Concepts decoder with 'Stay Alive' all fitted on one chip?
Sounds a good idea! I'm a little surprised that they can miniaturise a capacitor sufficiently to fit it on a chip - and if they can make capacitors that small, why doesn't the stayalive that Charlie's fitted have one that's smaller.
The issue with the DCC Concepts. decoder with stay alive, is that the power isn’t managed. This can really lead to difficulties when programming unless you switch off the stay alive. Also, your locos can’t conduct the uncouple shuffle, as the DCC Concepts decoders aren’t capable of these more advanced functions. Regards Charlie
That you for that information
Hi Charlie
Many thanks for another excellent video from your good humoured self. I really like the look of your Rolling Road and would like to know what make that is as I'm looking for one right now.
Thanks. Ray
It’s made by Zeller and is available from DCC Train Automation
Thanks, Charlie. I would be interested in anything regarding stayalives, particularly "home-made" ones. I have very limited finances - I can't even aford £30 for a brake van - so would like to see how feasable it would be for me to fit stay alives to my locos... I use ZTC by the way and none of my chips are newer than sixteen years old: I can't afford new ones!
Now you need to find out where on your chips, a stay-alive can be soldered it to. Regards Charlie
Hi great video, I have a couple of dead spots on my track which has now been ballasted etc. I don’t have a sound car but will a stay alive allow my castle class stop my loco from stuttering. I am a newbie and this is my first layout .
Thanks for your videos I have enjoyed them immensely.
It should do Antony, but I would be more interested in why are you have the dead spots and try to cure those first. Regards Charlie
Of course we would like a vlog on DIY stay alive. Why would you ever think differently? Over to you!
Challenge excepted Leonard, stay tuned