the legal complications of multiple spouses would be massive! i mean you just have to look at messy divorces to see just how confusing even a divorce between 2 people can get, when you throw a few more in the mix, it can get proper trippy!
In the early days of the church a man would actually be told that he could support more than one wife, and that they should marry again. These men often married single mothers who had a hard time supporting their families.
Polygamy was instituted in the early days of the church to take care of women who could not ordinarily do so (such as widows with children) and to keep the church together in its early days. If you are interested then you can read an article that the church published on why it was started, and why they stopped it (because if we wanted to keep doing it, we would despite the law, but we don't).
I love Stephen's point here. And to answer his question, I'm pretty sure it's religion that's responsible for that strange dichotomy. Honestly, I don't believe our species is supposed to be monogamous. Too many signs. The fact that even in the most religious groups who have a strong belief in family and monogamy have a very high rate of divorce, cheating, etc shows me that there's something maybe is unsuitable about monogamy with humans. Just a thought.
@osco4311 - One problem with that theory. Polygamy began BEFORE they were driven out of several states. They didn't abolish polygamy in Utah because it was "no longer vital for survival". They abolished polygamy because Mormon leaders wanted Utah to become a state. In order to become a state they were required by the Federal Government to abandon polygamy, which is illegal in the United States. They became polygamists because Joseph Smith had a mistress, Lucinda Pendelton Harris. Not to survive.
Polygamy is illegal because marriage is written into the law. IMO marriage should have nothing to do with the law. Let anyone marry whomever they wish, so long as that person consents and isn't related to them.
The general reason that can be given is that most governments stick to age old legislation created in the time of prudish and old-fashioned morals. I can't speak for Britain or America, but in Australia, the government sticks to the Marriage Act of 1961 which states "a union of a man and a woman to the exclusion of all others". To change that legislation you need a referendum. I would assume that Britain and America quite possibly follows a similar process. I may be wrong though.
@tankgirl73 It's actually the reason that Utah wasn't accepted as a state for so long. The social stigma against polygamy was so strong that no one would risk their political careers by supporting them.
Polygamy's only a major issue due to romantic love. Until a couple of centuries ago, it was an economic arrangement. Churches made funny rules in the 13th century, but it was still an arrangement.
I actually read an article where a native South American woman was married with two men. I think it was from Peru or Chile. This was normal in their society, if I remember the article correctly.
Though Joseph Smith did in fact have multiple wives he only had children with Emma Smith, who was his first wife. Also, people who were eager to marry more than one woman were not allowed to.
Marriage is only a legal contract. It is not illegal to have a private ceremony and then live together with lots of people. It is only illegal to make several contracts.
@BeigeFunk Many reasons actually. For one, children born in polygamous households tend to have lower quality of lives due to the lack of a strong fatherly presence (especially since the masculine member of the household has to spread his time across all his different sub-families). Lack of money and resources to care for every member of the family (which can be many in these cases) can also be another problem. It is a matter of rights, mostly. Children and wives have reduced rights.
Though I do agree if its just one person, or a couple people doing it in a society, its not an issue. But if a decent percentage of the population does it, it changes the whole male-female relationship system.
That's the problem - it becomes a power issue if a man has several wives. If it were, say, 3 or 4 people all married to each other in a mutual relationship then you might have a point.
Most laws are results-based, not morality-based (seeing as morals are relative and results are not.) Honestly, the illegality comes from the legal headache of it: if you have two wives, how does everything work with taxes? If one wife is abusive, who gets the kids? Are they joined with you and your other wife? What if the other wife disagrees? Much easier to say "if you love them, and they love you, fine. Just don't get married, or pick one."
@SBFloppie Thats the point and the problem with holy books, you can interpret them to say just about whatever you want at the time you want, for whatever reason you want. Not forgetting the direct contradictions in many parts of both the books you brought up.
Polygamy is illegal for insurance and inheritance reasons. Things could get complicated if a man had two wives, and one of those wives had three husbands, and two of those husbands also had three wives, who also may have had multiple husbands... It just makes tracing the family too crazy. But in theory, it shouldn't be criminal to LOVE whomever you want, as long as you're all consenting adults. But insurance and inheritance would need to be nailed down carefully.
@BeigeFunk When Christianity still held a huge hold over local governments the practice was outlawed at the state level by everyone. That's the reason that Utah was denied permission to enter the US. The federal Govt. wanted the large number of Mormons there to denounce polygamy because of immense pressure by the states before it could join.
ok, the point i am trying to make is not that it is wrong, i am not commenting on the ethics of polygamy, my point is more about civil law than criminal law, i suppose the main point is it is a difference in connotations, it is more a case of you cannot do it because of of the structure of a marriage in the eyes of the law, as opposed to you cannot do it because it is forbidden, if that makes more sense.
In societies where polygamy is common. There becomes a recurring problem. Say your a 30 year old male looking for a wife. Since many men have more then one wife odds are there are no 30 year old woman still available to marry. So you'd have to find a much younger wife. Since every male is competing for younger wifes, their availibility drops too.. So then you gotta go even younger. Why many polygamist societies end up with child marriages.
You've gone so far as to analyze census data? I'm impressed! Did the ages match up? Where the males present old enough to care or provide for the females, or was it simply more 8 year old boys than 8 year old girls?
Me being a Mormon, I can accuratly say that the church is actually against polygamy. I know that sounds wierd, but the early saints were told to marry multiple women in order to raise a people, also that a lot of men died in the early church. So polygamy was a way to make sure the women were not alone.
@Varoonmg He said "consenting", and what you describe is not actual consent. I agree with Beigefunk, because quite frankly the only reasons the government outlaws it is because religions tell them to.
You misunderstand: Joseph Smith did NOT get revelation that said he could marry many women. Joseph Smith got revelation that told his WIFE that he could marry many women.
If polygamy is done in small numbers, i.e. 3 consenting adults who love each other, FFM or MMF, is it immoral? Housing is expensive these days. Three incomes would make housing affordable and allow for some otherwise unaffordable extras. And lots of women have children from multiple partners. Why not legitimize it?
When a group has been driven out of several states, the men and boys killed, and it at least one state (Missouri) it be formally legalized (The Extermination Order), it kind of makes sense for a man on the frontier to take in other women rather than they having to fend for themselves in the desert. When it was no longer vital for survival it could be safely abolished. There are still fringe groups calling themselves Mormon who do fairly raise the mistress question though.
Pointless fact: Did you know the guy who created Wonder Woman lived with 2 women? By all accounts the 3 of them were very happy... Mind you, he was a weird fucker anyway.
I think Polygamy could be something beautiful entirely, if it wasn't for it being very rare. For example 3 people who all three love one another, instead of it becoming 1 person loving two others, and the two others accepting one another to be with the first person (Harems). Not saying it doesn't happen, just saying I find it distasteful when people misuse the word for sexual deviation or excuse for infidelity. There is bad in each idea of love, and often due to someone misusing it for own gain.
@BeigeFunk I am not an expert but I believe that gov'nt got involved when reports started showing up about girls as young as 13-15 being married to men as old as 40-45, and the men haveing more than one of these girls. this, though legal, seems, to most, to be wrong. if polugamy worked the way Sephan sugests it would be great... but to often it doesn't work out that way.
@BeigeFunk i probabably has something to do with when tax benifits get in the picture.. If everyone could marry everyone and pay less i guess that would be quite weird. Im not sure though, just a thought that that might be a problem. Otherwise its fine by me to have as many husbands or wives as you want.
he asks why we think it's such a horrible thing like incest. why do we think incest is such a horrible thing? now sure, inbreeding is quite harmful, but sex and even a relationship could work fine. adopt when you want a kid and then where's the harm?
..... I've never seen a society where woman have multiple husbands, Think I heard of one in Africa in a national geographic magazine I read years ago... Where as the polygamous societies where men marry multiple woman have populations in the millions. And I've been to those societies, and lived there. Also if Woman marry multiple males, you get the exact same issue except the age of the woman would go up, and the boys they marry would get younger and younger, its the same problem
@tankgirl73 Ya the people who still practised it were told to leave the church but they just set up their own little religion and still take the Mormon name but they have nothing to do with the real Morman church. Thats were the confusion comes in.
Well if its only, or mainly males that are marrying multiple females, or mainly females marrying multiple males. This creates a mathematical problem. Because most population are only 51-53% female. Just look at any polygamist society, there is always a race to the bottom in finding available woman. So the woman get married younger, and younger, and the age of the men increases.
@BeigeFunk Because marriage is a lawful contract, and Gov't can intervene in matters of law. I'm not saying its right that they do, don't get me wrong. I agree that since it is a choice and people don't get hurt by it, then it should be legal.
Not mainstream Mormons. The LDS church hasn't permitted plural marriage since the late 19th century. Utah is probably the one state that looks to prosecute plural marriage the most. Now the FLDS church which is a small branch that broke away from the main church in the 1930s allows multiple wives but with stipulations. The FLDS church is often regarded as a cult where the LDS church is not.
@BeigeFunk because humans are produced in 1:1 ratio(actually there are slightly more men than women(biologically that is, ignoring sex selective abortion)), in these polygamous communities a great many boys and young men are thrown out simply so that the elders can marry the girls and keep a sex ratio they like. Is that moral?
perhaps because there is less driving it to become accepted. people can't help their sexuality and denying them happiness based on something beyond their control is bad, but with polygamy the person has to already have a partner for another to be added, so they've already found happiness and now want more. giving people what they need is a priority, giving people who already have what they need what they also want is not a priority.
Sorry, but that's simply not accurate. Joseph Smith began practicing polygamy sometime around 1833, long before any of that trouble started. And, if you look at the census data, there were always (slightly) more men than women in Utah for the entire time polygamy was officially condoned.
the legal complications of multiple spouses would be massive! i mean you just have to look at messy divorces to see just how confusing even a divorce between 2 people can get, when you throw a few more in the mix, it can get proper trippy!
In the early days of the church a man would actually be told that he could support more than one wife, and that they should marry again. These men often married single mothers who had a hard time supporting their families.
Polygamy was instituted in the early days of the church to take care of women who could not ordinarily do so (such as widows with children) and to keep the church together in its early days. If you are interested then you can read an article that the church published on why it was started, and why they stopped it (because if we wanted to keep doing it, we would despite the law, but we don't).
I love Stephen's point here. And to answer his question, I'm pretty sure it's religion that's responsible for that strange dichotomy. Honestly, I don't believe our species is supposed to be monogamous. Too many signs. The fact that even in the most religious groups who have a strong belief in family and monogamy have a very high rate of divorce, cheating, etc shows me that there's something maybe is unsuitable about monogamy with humans. Just a thought.
@osco4311 - One problem with that theory. Polygamy began BEFORE they were driven out of several states. They didn't abolish polygamy in Utah because it was "no longer vital for survival". They abolished polygamy because Mormon leaders wanted Utah to become a state. In order to become a state they were required by the Federal Government to abandon polygamy, which is illegal in the United States. They became polygamists because Joseph Smith had a mistress, Lucinda Pendelton Harris. Not to survive.
I'm surprised the Govt. hasn't allowed it and then found a way to tax it
Polygamy is illegal because marriage is written into the law. IMO marriage should have nothing to do with the law. Let anyone marry whomever they wish, so long as that person consents and isn't related to them.
The general reason that can be given is that most governments stick to age old legislation created in the time of prudish and old-fashioned morals. I can't speak for Britain or America, but in Australia, the government sticks to the Marriage Act of 1961 which states "a union of a man and a woman to the exclusion of all others". To change that legislation you need a referendum. I would assume that Britain and America quite possibly follows a similar process. I may be wrong though.
In pretty much every country where polygamy is legal it's only one husband and several wives.
@tankgirl73 It's actually the reason that Utah wasn't accepted as a state for so long. The social stigma against polygamy was so strong that no one would risk their political careers by supporting them.
A few minutes ago I was listening to Radio 4's the Unbelievable Truth...
Polygamy's only a major issue due to romantic love. Until a couple of centuries ago, it was an economic arrangement. Churches made funny rules in the 13th century, but it was still an arrangement.
I always thought a few referred to between 2 and 5, several applied 6 -10 and many was beyond that,,,
I actually read an article where a native South American woman was married with two men. I think it was from Peru or Chile. This was normal in their society, if I remember the article correctly.
Though Joseph Smith did in fact have multiple wives he only had children with Emma Smith, who was his first wife. Also, people who were eager to marry more than one woman were not allowed to.
A Suffusion of Yellow.
Irony is that, while I watch this, the "feaured video" is on of the "... and I'm a Mormon" videos :P
Marriage is only a legal contract. It is not illegal to have a private ceremony and then live together with lots of people. It is only illegal to make several contracts.
@tankgirl73 The decision to not practice polygamy was a "Divine Revalation" as well -_-
@BeigeFunk Many reasons actually. For one, children born in polygamous households tend to have lower quality of lives due to the lack of a strong fatherly presence (especially since the masculine member of the household has to spread his time across all his different sub-families). Lack of money and resources to care for every member of the family (which can be many in these cases) can also be another problem. It is a matter of rights, mostly. Children and wives have reduced rights.
Though I do agree if its just one person, or a couple people doing it in a society, its not an issue. But if a decent percentage of the population does it, it changes the whole male-female relationship system.
That's the problem - it becomes a power issue if a man has several wives. If it were, say, 3 or 4 people all married to each other in a mutual relationship then you might have a point.
Most laws are results-based, not morality-based (seeing as morals are relative and results are not.) Honestly, the illegality comes from the legal headache of it: if you have two wives, how does everything work with taxes? If one wife is abusive, who gets the kids? Are they joined with you and your other wife? What if the other wife disagrees? Much easier to say "if you love them, and they love you, fine. Just don't get married, or pick one."
@SBFloppie Thats the point and the problem with holy books, you can interpret them to say just about whatever you want at the time you want, for whatever reason you want. Not forgetting the direct contradictions in many parts of both the books you brought up.
Polygamy is illegal for insurance and inheritance reasons. Things could get complicated if a man had two wives, and one of those wives had three husbands, and two of those husbands also had three wives, who also may have had multiple husbands... It just makes tracing the family too crazy.
But in theory, it shouldn't be criminal to LOVE whomever you want, as long as you're all consenting adults. But insurance and inheritance would need to be nailed down carefully.
@WakingLife55 If it's the same house, would there be one, two or poly bedrooms?
Polyandry is where a woman marries multiple men.
polygyny is where a man marries multiple women.
polygamy is the gender neutral term.
@BeigeFunk When Christianity still held a huge hold over local governments the practice was outlawed at the state level by everyone. That's the reason that Utah was denied permission to enter the US. The federal Govt. wanted the large number of Mormons there to denounce polygamy because of immense pressure by the states before it could join.
You could say "A throng"
I'm LDS (mormon) - we laughed ourselves silly at this :D
ok, the point i am trying to make is not that it is wrong, i am not commenting on the ethics of polygamy, my point is more about civil law than criminal law, i suppose the main point is it is a difference in connotations, it is more a case of you cannot do it because of of the structure of a marriage in the eyes of the law, as opposed to you cannot do it because it is forbidden, if that makes more sense.
Well I've ended up in the QI part of UA-cam again
So long A levels......
In societies where polygamy is common. There becomes a recurring problem. Say your a 30 year old male looking for a wife. Since many men have more then one wife odds are there are no 30 year old woman still available to marry. So you'd have to find a much younger wife. Since every male is competing for younger wifes, their availibility drops too.. So then you gotta go even younger.
Why many polygamist societies end up with child marriages.
@acr08807 That is ridiculous. Where would you get such a ridiculous idea?
You've gone so far as to analyze census data? I'm impressed! Did the ages match up? Where the males present old enough to care or provide for the females, or was it simply more 8 year old boys than 8 year old girls?
Me being a Mormon, I can accuratly say that the church is actually against polygamy. I know that sounds wierd, but the early saints were told to marry multiple women in order to raise a people, also that a lot of men died in the early church. So polygamy was a way to make sure the women were not alone.
'cause having more than one wife is just to much damn work.
I bet there are many women who would settle for a polygamist relationship with David.
We have serial monogamy here in America. Sad really!
In Nepal it's one wife two men.
Pretty sure I'm not talking about those countries.
Which episode was this? I want to watch it all and see Doctor Who's David Tennant some more.
Ironic the off to the side there's a features mormon video
@Varoonmg He said "consenting", and what you describe is not actual consent.
I agree with Beigefunk, because quite frankly the only reasons the government outlaws it is because religions tell them to.
sigh i did mix it up dint i?
@MaximPodolsky because telling people what they can and can't do up to the point that you're telling them how to dress is terrifyingly totalitarian.
You misunderstand: Joseph Smith did NOT get revelation that said he could marry many women. Joseph Smith got revelation that told his WIFE that he could marry many women.
If polygamy is done in small numbers, i.e. 3 consenting adults who love each other, FFM or MMF, is it immoral? Housing is expensive these days. Three incomes would make housing affordable and allow for some otherwise unaffordable extras. And lots of women have children from multiple partners. Why not legitimize it?
i wouldn't say my point was that it would cost more money, so much as one of how do you agree who gets what, how much and why?
And what does Dr. Who think of Polygamy?
When a group has been driven out of several states, the men and boys killed, and it at least one state (Missouri) it be formally legalized (The Extermination Order), it kind of makes sense for a man on the frontier to take in other women rather than they having to fend for themselves in the desert. When it was no longer vital for survival it could be safely abolished.
There are still fringe groups calling themselves Mormon who do fairly raise the mistress question though.
Pointless fact: Did you know the guy who created Wonder Woman lived with 2 women?
By all accounts the 3 of them were very happy... Mind you, he was a weird fucker anyway.
@BeigeFunk Likely, for the same reason why gay marriage still isn't legal, because some holy book states it has to be between 1 man and 1 woman.
I think Polygamy could be something beautiful entirely, if it wasn't for it being very rare. For example 3 people who all three love one another, instead of it becoming 1 person loving two others, and the two others accepting one another to be with the first person (Harems). Not saying it doesn't happen, just saying I find it distasteful when people misuse the word for sexual deviation or excuse for infidelity. There is bad in each idea of love, and often due to someone misusing it for own gain.
@BeigeFunk I am not an expert but I believe that gov'nt got involved when reports started showing up about girls as young as 13-15 being married to men as old as 40-45, and the men haveing more than one of these girls. this, though legal, seems, to most, to be wrong. if polugamy worked the way Sephan sugests it would be great... but to often it doesn't work out that way.
too bad realy that everyone is too old to have made the: IT'S OVER 9000!
joke. i can see allan doing that :P
Oooh, what country is that?
Um... No. Those are the Amish. the Mormon church even has a few websites and a tv channel.
yup
What episode is this from?
@BeigeFunk i probabably has something to do with when tax benifits get in the picture.. If everyone could marry everyone and pay less i guess that would be quite weird. Im not sure though, just a thought that that might be a problem. Otherwise its fine by me to have as many husbands or wives as you want.
Polygamy, bigamy, etc, know what the true punishment is? Many mother-in-laws.
he asks why we think it's such a horrible thing like incest.
why do we think incest is such a horrible thing? now sure, inbreeding is quite harmful, but sex and even a relationship could work fine. adopt when you want a kid and then where's the harm?
..... I've never seen a society where woman have multiple husbands, Think I heard of one in Africa in a national geographic magazine I read years ago...
Where as the polygamous societies where men marry multiple woman have populations in the millions. And I've been to those societies, and lived there.
Also if Woman marry multiple males, you get the exact same issue except the age of the woman would go up, and the boys they marry would get younger and younger, its the same problem
@tankgirl73 Ya the people who still practised it were told to leave the church but they just set up their own little religion and still take the Mormon name but they have nothing to do with the real Morman church. Thats were the confusion comes in.
Well if its only, or mainly males that are marrying multiple females, or mainly females marrying multiple males.
This creates a mathematical problem. Because most population are only 51-53% female.
Just look at any polygamist society, there is always a race to the bottom in finding available woman. So the woman get married younger, and younger, and the age of the men increases.
Ooooooh as soon as you allow polygamy people will be marrying animals and inanimate objects... Good! I hope they are very happy together.
Actually no.
Google Amish.
@BeigeFunk Because marriage is a lawful contract, and Gov't can intervene in matters of law. I'm not saying its right that they do, don't get me wrong. I agree that since it is a choice and people don't get hurt by it, then it should be legal.
uhmm mormons do practice having multiple wives
Not mainstream Mormons. The LDS church hasn't permitted plural marriage since the late 19th century. Utah is probably the one state that looks to prosecute plural marriage the most. Now the FLDS church which is a small branch that broke away from the main church in the 1930s allows multiple wives but with stipulations. The FLDS church is often regarded as a cult where the LDS church is not.
@BeigeFunk because humans are produced in 1:1 ratio(actually there are slightly more men than women(biologically that is, ignoring sex selective abortion)), in these polygamous communities a great many boys and young men are thrown out simply so that the elders can marry the girls and keep a sex ratio they like. Is that moral?
there is a lot of polygamy in the bible
@acr08807 No. They don't. I am a Mormon. Trust me.
@enlightendbel Except it doesn't. Mulitple wives were common the Bible and the Quran.
why is heteronormativity bad but monogamy-normativity good?
perhaps because there is less driving it to become accepted. people can't help their sexuality and denying them happiness based on something beyond their control is bad, but with polygamy the person has to already have a partner for another to be added, so they've already found happiness and now want more. giving people what they need is a priority, giving people who already have what they need what they also want is not a priority.
Sorry, but that's simply not accurate.
Joseph Smith began practicing polygamy sometime around 1833, long before any of that trouble started. And, if you look at the census data, there were always (slightly) more men than women in Utah for the entire time polygamy was officially condoned.
Cheating is not polygamy. Stephen sounds like muslims. Bad bad bad.
Implying only males can have multiple wives and not vice versa. Your argument is flawed.