The loss, coupled with the cost of the input power. Input from solar would be much more viable than from a nuc plant due to huge cost kw cost difference. It'll be interesting to see this mature.
After short short research I’m seeing around 50% efficient which is significantly less than lithium ion at 90%. However the cost to produce the thermal batteries is significantly less. So like most things in energy the solution is probably a combination of a lot of different things
For those interested in reading, the Department of Energy recently published an article ("Achieving the Promise of Low-Cost Long Duration Energy Storage", Aug 24) discussing a bunch of grid-scale energy storage technologies, including thermal energy storage, and what can be done to bring down costs.
Note our primary customers are heavy industrial facilities that require 24/7 heat, not electricity. That heat is currently being produced by natural gas-fired boilers that in some cases have been operating uninterrupted for decades. We take intermittent power that is low cost, or even negative cost during hours of overgeneration and curtailment, and convert that to the high temperature heat that industrials need. Industry is the largest emitter of CO2 and 74% of industry's emissions come from heat, not electricity, to drive industrial processes.
The issue with renewables is that they cut into the profits of fossil fuel generators. California is constantly hitting overproduction in energy due to solar panels but can't inject that energy into the grid because it'll hurt shareholder feelings by driving down energy costs. Instead we sell that overabundance to nearby states. Renewables won't kick off if we keep prioritizing profits.
We've had 200MWhs+ of customer project announcements this year after our first commercial pilot in 2022. We've also partnered with some of the world's largest energy developers on 3GWhs+ of deployment partnerships. Keep in mind, the solar industry and lithium ion storage industry was much, much slower to reach the same scale and capacity.
@@rondoenergy4228 , yet the exponential curve of solar/wind and LFP battery systems in the past couple of years has blown every cost analyst's projections out of the water. We need all the energy storage options that make sense. We should use thermal energy storage for thermal energy demand and battery energy storage for electricity demand.
So old fashioned 'storage heaters' are back. In the old days cheap electricity was used to heat bricks inside a heater which then would release the heat during the small hours in the house.
Aren't there already salt or liquid sodium battries that just heat up salt to the point it melts and stores it. Apparently it loses like 0.5⁰c every day....how good is this compared to that
I thinks its more expensive and more corrosive to store and its high in maintenance the last time I saw they used sand cheaper but may be less efficient
It think these bricks just happen to be cheaper and most cost effective. Especially to provide heat in the form of steam for industrial processes. Providing a large heat sink allows a factory to get steam 24hrs while being only supplied by intermittent renewables. This makes sense.
@@JorvsUchihaCorrect. There are big sand batteries in use in Finland. The good thing is that they use the "cheap" sand that isn't used in concrete also. They're indeed cheap, but the energy conversion costs are rather substantial.
Like, in theory you could replace every boiler with this tech. My factory has two big ones running at all times to heat 45k lb aqueous batches up from room temp to 200 deg for reaction. Rather than run a boiler off natural gas, we could store peak energy during the day and release it throughout the day as needed as superheated steam.
Now you're thinkin in power, why use electrical systems or gas when you can use a simple up front investment to have a continuos supply with low costs of replacement and maintenance? If you cut things off at the source and give people a relatively profitable alternative, you can nip adoption issues In the bud.
если вы вместо газового котла поставите ПГУ - это окажется дешевле. а если добавить низкотемпературный конденсатный контур - это окажется еще и выгодно. 200 градусов вы не получите никаким способом кроме прямой конверсии. слишком дорого все такие варианты получаются, тепло по цене электричества
Yeah, it's called a fireplace with a brick surround. Turning that heat into electricity is not efficient, though. This is not a replacement for "normal batteries," as they're trying to claim.
The BEST way is to use Geothermal energy but current technologies have problems drilling down far enough. Iceland is OK because it is near the surface. If successful geothermal could power the WHOLE WORLD with LIMITLESS energy.
Two thirds of energy is thrown away. There are two types of energy here. Thermal Energy. Electrical Energy. Thermal is cheap. Electric is expensive. Electricity can convert to thermal. But only about a third of thermal can be converted to electrical. This is an extremely inefficient way of storing energy.
True, but if it is cheap enough or safe enough or flexible enough (not saying it is) then the inefficiency might not be a major issue. It is an important variable to consider tho... One of many variables...
@@desiv1170 only 20ish% of our grid is coming from solar and wind, imagine a 66% lose of power on that because we decided to go all in on thermal batteries and store electricity in the worst way possible.
@@ghost25killer Hyperbole much? It's not "the worst way possible.." 🙂It's just not as efficient as some others. Which is important to know, but there are many variables to consider for what is a good technology for a chosen use case; efficiency is just one of those variables. Does it mean this isn't the right choice? Maybe. Maybe not.
really happy to see this for a lot of reasons, including that lithium is limited and mining it is problematic, so if we can reduce the situations where it's needed, that's better. all the more-so for grid-scale projects which are enormous. also love how clean this process is.
It's an interesting tech. If you're using it to get electricity back, you of course suffer some additional losses in going back from heat. However there are so many uses where it's the heat that is needed. Industry especially. But also others. There is somewhere in Europe (don't recall where) where they are testing a system like this for a municipality. They use a steam system for heating houses & other structures during the winter. Using the heat directly lowers the loses & in their case they simply tap into existing infrastructure.
This was how some houses in England would heat. They had thermal mass under the floors and heated it at night when there was not the demand from industry and kept the coal plants running. Now there is less industry and now there is extra wind at times.
@@rondoenergy4228my brother in law bought a house couple of years ago and now he built up walls of clay inside and plaster the outside also with clay. It looks very beautiful and the feeling/climate inside the very nice. Unfortunately the ceiling was already pretty low so he couldn't put floor heating in it and use a heat pump. Hopefully he will put some solar panels on the roof in the future to make it really nice
@@larryc1616 electricity is a higher form of energy, heat is the lowest. that's why heat to electricity (ex coal to electricity) is only 25-30% efficient whereas electricity to heat is 100% efficient. Can also use electricity with heat pumps to get a cheat 400% efficiency
@@A3Kr0n the problem with hot rock or similar technology that you have energy as heat so you can use it as it is or you will get losses then you convert it to electricity, no mention that this conversion will be quite difficult to control because it will be not constant and of course this conversion will cost money. With melted salt technology you have electricity in the output. For humanity electricity is the most important and most consumable energy form. This hot rock energy technology I see using only in factories where you need direct heat in production and also in the cold cities where central heating system is used. But in winter you have low sun exposure and not so much wind...
Thermal energy storage is vitally important in the global energy transition. Many residential and industrial processes directly use heat. At home there is hot water and home heating which is a big part of a home's energy budget. As price of home batteries are still high, there is an opportunity to store heat for later use from the grid electricity (or better rooftop solar) and use it later thus relieving the grid of peak demand loads when everyone wanting it: evening time (duck curve), winter storms, etc. As the video pointed at 5:18, a pound of bricks stores more energy than pound of lithium batteries, and at a significantly lower price too. On a larger scale, the world uses about 620-exajoules of energy annually. Only some 100-exajoules of it is electricity. The rest is basically a type of heat from internal combustion engines, jet engines, building HVAC, and industrial processes like manufacturing steel & concrete.
In the Isentropic process a gas like argon is kept in 2 gravel stores differentially, hot 500c and cold -160c using a gas turbine pump system. When electricity is available it spins up the turbine that pumps argon gas from the cold side to the hot side. When electricity is needed, the process is reversed. The round trip eff is said to be about 75%. The company behind it was built by a turbine engineer with UK gov support, when the company folded it was taken over by Nottingham University, search In another approach that has similar efficiency, air is frozen with steel tanks containing the liquified air and a sand store holds the captured compression heat. When the heat is used to recover the air from the liquified air, the system recovers electrical energy at about 50-60% eff.
The answer is the storage must be what the land provide. If alot of water, then water batteries, if sand then molten sand batteries. One is not the answer.
Very cool. Please install at every substation in the world. For my house basement I am thinking 4" of foam R20 covered by a sheet of concrete board with electric heating coils throughout smothered in self levelling grout covered by another layer of concrete board reheated by 30 solar PV panels installed near vertically along my central Canadian fence.
We are selling heat to our customers, not electricity. We are 98% efficient electricity-in to heat-out. Our customers are purchasing heat from us to replace gas-fired boilers that generate heat 24/7.
There was a similar hype about space-based solar panel technology, because European scientists said it was easy to create. Yet the energy loss due to the transfer process is too big
The energy loss for thermal storage in bricks and the like is about 30-41%, so it definitely has tradeoffs compared to batteries but for excess cheap energy it's not terrible.
Great video highlighting the potential of thermal batteries! However, it misses the game-changing role of cold energy storage, especially in hotter climates where cooling can consume up to 70% of electricity. Technologies like EnergiVault from O-Hx provide rapid discharge capabilities, cutting costs and emissions while meeting peak cooling demands. Cold energy storage is a vital and disruptive part of the energy transition! 🌍❄
After I raised up to 325k trading with her I bought a new House and a car here in the states also paid for my son's surgery (Oscar). Glory to God.shalom.
China is literally destroying America in the green energy race. 60% of global green energy is China. America is taxing Chinese solar panels because they can't even keep up.
It goes without saying that this video wouldn't even exist if China had not moved the needle while everyone else slept. It must be interesting to you because you're braindead
Seems this tech solves a problem for power plants and not directly for the general public. So it’s easy to see why it’s not as widely known. It sounds promising though.
Power plants can be retrofit with Rondo to drive steam turbines with zero carbon heat from intermittent renewables instead of 24/7 natural gas. However, our primary customers require heat as heat -- not as electricity.
Here's the thing you need to know about heat/thermal storage. Converting electricity onto heat and storing it is a 99% efficient process. It's converting the heat back into electricity is were you're gonna take the hit in the efficiency. Thanks to the 2nd law of thermodynamics, would be lucky to get an efficiency better then 35%. Thermal storage has it's place, like storing heat for heating you home during off peek times. Your hot water tank is a prime example of a thermal battery, storing anywhere from 70 to 100kw of energy, many power companies in exchange for cheaper rates, will install a remote control device on you HW tank to turn it off during peek times. Just don't expect to turn all that hot water back in electricity any time soon. Thermal storage has it's place, but trying to use it to store electricity? Ya! That's nothing but a pipe dream.
This could be somewhat useful for district heating systems. Through the day there is typically times when there might be a little bit too much power being produced. If you could have this connected to the grid and it just took that power and converted it to heat then during peak times the heat could be used. The grid operators would most likely just give that extra power for free since it would save them some headaches. Obviously that would only work in areas where they have excess power from time to time like grids with a lot of renewables. If the grid has natural gas power plants for baseload they want to keep those running so even if the power isnt free it would be extremely cheap and with a system like this it could be turned off and on quickly to follow the load.
You're missing the idea. It's not about running a heat engine to convert back to electricity. They are using this to supply process heat in industries so that at times of peak load, more valuable electricity doesn't need to be wasted on process heat.
We are selling heat, as heat, directly to industrial customers to replace or eliminate gas-fired boilers that generate heat. We can also deploy combined heat and power solutions, but our primary customers are purchasing heat.
Unless thermal batteries are 10-100x cheaper, they have no commercial chance vs electric batteries. 5-10 years feom now sodium batteries are likely to be 10x cheaper than now. Mass production beats all! Looks like thermals are also scaling though. So best of luck to them!
An RHB is about 5-10X lower-cost than Li-Ion for the same amount of energy storage -- however note that we are primarily selling HEAT to customers, not electricity. 74% of industrial emissions come from heat -- NOT electricity. Thanks for the kind words!
The problem with thermal energy storage is that it makes so much sense and requires so little knowledge to do it well , it shouldn't be a money maker. Probably any beginning engineering student should be able to sketch out a working design on a napkin The thermal batteries in this video are the wrong way because it highlights the drawbacks of thermal energy storage which isn't the storage itself but the conversion and transfer from some other form of energy to thermal and then later to electricity losses can be unacceptably high. I understand the Chinese are going sing Stirling engines to convert thermal to electricity which is one good solution. Americans apparently aren't satisfied and are trying to invent another solution and one has been high output thermistors On the input side, any solar concentrator farm is already dealing with high temp heat as the primary form of energy so a simple solution could be to simply expand the reservoir of solution flowing through the system typically molten sodium As briefly mentioned in the video, the properties, systems and materials used to manage heat are widely known and some hundreds of years old using very cheap materials. Some of those principles are in every water heater and building a/c system. Metropolitan storage of thermal energy can be very cheap and materials often found in common stores
Hey -- quick correction -- our customers are primarily purchasing heat from us -- not electricity. So we are not experiencing losses from converting heat back to electricity. We are 98% efficient electricity-in to heat-out -- and customers are replacing their gas-fired boilers that produce heat with Rondo Heat Batteries for that very same heat. Molten salt is not a safe solution for factories where safety is paramount, and mirrors require a lot of space to deploy that factories don't have. You experience a lot of efficiency loss transferring heat over distances compared to generating that heat, safely, at the heart of the factory.
Energy storage is the key, once that problem is solved then Wind and Solar will be unstoppable...BUT it will take a LOT of energy storage and the technology needs to build and grow to get where it needs to be.
I can't wait for that holy grail battery to become the predominant source of energy storage. Whatever it is they need to hurry up and get things moving. I stop counting the number of new innovative battery technology that can become the holy grail standard for energy storage. 😎💯💪🏾👍🏾
Benar ini adalah teknologi baru yang hebat bahwa kapasitas daya dari baterai bisa menjangkau simpanan maksimum daya yang sangat besar untuk perangkat yang portable. Apalagi jika masih bisa di naikkan dengan perangkat yang berfungsi menaikkan tegangan pasti penggunaan daya sangat lebih efisien
@@tklasson that's not "steel manufacturing" though. Might as well say it can power rockets to land on the moon if SpaceX heats up their warehouse with it. Steel manufacturing is a particularly important topic for greenhouse emissions, and it shouldn't just be thrown in the bucket of "well, they heat the cubicles with it". The temperature needed for steel is directly incompatible with many/most/almost all green heating technologies. The only reasonably viable one that I know of right now is burning hydrogen
A school not far from me was built with a thermal thermos. It captures heat during the summer months, and discharge it in winter. This is sand based afik
Even better if you use it just for central heating, because then you wouldn't be converting it back to electricity, but directly warming up water. Then it becomes very efficient and the only loss is when storing the thermal energy.
Okay well since you’re already using heat just go the opposite way and chill the thing way down make it into superconducting material to keep electrons rotating forever until you need to use it.
How about using the electricity to pump water to an uphill state during the peak production and regenerating electricity by the way of hydroelectric power via letting the water stream down.
There’s nothing novel about this, other than the economics related to cheap renewable electricity. I’ve been using my electric water heater as a thermal battery for years. 220V timers are quite cheap and easy to install inline with a water heater - just set the on-time to periods in the day when your grid is heavy on renewables (10am-3pm here in Arizona). Electric water heaters are so well insulated that you will only lose about 5-10 degrees off of your set temperature after about 20 hours.
How would batteries like this perform in extreme cold temperatures and winter climates. I've had so many problems with the new battery for my car that I've bought to replace and it only seemed to have had problems in cold weather 🤔
Basically the characteristics of these batteries is that they are huge, heavy, and cheap. They are way worse than lithium batteries in terms of efficiency and how long they can hold energy but that doesn’t matter when the energy is renewable and the batteries are 10% of the cost
In whole video they are not telling how this heat energy will turn back into electricity. This is probably to heat up manufacturing materials. I don't see how this can work in residential setup.
We primarily sell heat (hot air or steam) to customers who use natural gas to generate heat to drive their processes -- not electricity. Heat alone (not electricity) is responsible for 74% of industrial emissions. We are 98% efficient electricity-in to heat-out. Right now we are focused on the largest consumers of energy in the world -- heavy industrials. There are other companies that are working on heat batteries at smaller scale for residentials. We also can do a combined heat and power solution at very high efficiencies.
@@SSModi852 In residential settings thermal batteries can provide district heating for neighborhoods or apartment buildings...heat exchangers create steam & & feed directly into radiators in houses & apartments.
We're 98% efficient electricity-in to heat-out -- and we sell HEAT to customers who need heat, not electricity. We operate 24/7/365, just like industrial-scale gas-fired boilers do. Charging for 4-6 hours per day to sell heat 24/7.
@@rondoenergy4228bollocks. 98% efficiency is impossible... Unless you're ∆T is very low, you are going to have significantly higher thermal loses to the environment, even if the reservoir and pipes are extremely well insulated. Either you are lying or have very dodgy data
This has nothing to do with the introduction of renewables and everything to do with how energy is traded and the use of fossil fuels. Energy is traded at the price of the currently most expensive source of electricity on the grid. So say a peaker coal or gas station is switched on then the price will be set by the price of those fossil fuels irrespective of how much renewables is currently in use and the price of those fossil fuels has gone up. In order for us to see the benefits of renewables we need to rid our grids from the older more expensive technologies or in the short term put solar on your roof. However that depends on what state you are in as for example in California I think it is, they have started to put penalties on roof top solar, as they are generating too much solar on off peak times and don’t yet have enough storage to soak up the excess and as more people put more solar on their roofs the grid providers demand for electricity drops and they still have expensive base load stations (such as Nuclear) that cannot be easily switched on or off, that must be paid for. So they discourage more people from putting solar on their roofs, to prevent more electricity from going to waste and keep demand for the base stations steady. The transition is difficult but not impossible for the grids but the inflationary price of electricity is not because of renewables, though many will tell you otherwise.
Cheaper than bricks is the Sand battery Silo. Uses completely cheap common Sand and heat's IT and store's IT. No need for insulation. Just use more Sand. The Sand battery is better.
This could be game changing, but again there is probably some drawbacks with this technology to, against lithium ion batteries and other technologies like liquid sodium or salt batteries.
WHY NOT JUST MAKE THERMAL POWER PLANTS IN EVERY CITY!? Earth is full of heat, y’all, 1000ft below or higher. Pipe down, pipe up. This is an expensive red herring
The process would require electricity since thermal pipes can t passively transfer heat down below towards a cool surface without significant energy loss.
@ You must have skipped elementary science class. Water goes down because of gravity, steam goes up because of heat and conduction/convection. The system would generate largely net positive energy. Iceland is powered by 90% geothermal electricity. Look it up
Heat is a degraded form of energy. The turbine coupled to the system to re-transform into electricity requires a low temperatue point, a heat exchanger an a turbine . The total energy yield of such a system is limited bu the Carnot rule: 30% likely, to 50% in some specific conditions. An electrical battery has a conversion yield of 90%.
In my opinion, most efficient and effective will be mercury based technologies. These technologies were used centuries ago and almost forgotten in our days. Forgotten, because mercury based technologies do provide electrical energy independence in different levels. Technologies, such as golden mercury, do need modern time science to be developed. In many technical areas we see today representation of very complicated and expensive tech., instead of simple and cheaper tech. I could be related to will of control and bully less rich countries, make those countries compete and waist more money on inefficient technologies or, simply, buy those tech.😊
Except, wind power is has very low efficiency, is very difficult to repair, and once the product is useless, it goes to the dump. The answer is small, efficient, nuclear plants.
1) Ditch conventional EVs 2) Normalize hydrogen EVs (FCEV) 3) Utilize renewable sources to generate hydrogen through electrolysis and store the captured H2 gas. Stored H2 won't degrade over time unlike batteries, and the efficiency is up to 80%.
What is the energy loss in the process? That’s probably the most important point not addressed
The loss, coupled with the cost of the input power. Input from solar would be much more viable than from a nuc plant due to huge cost kw cost difference. It'll be interesting to see this mature.
Shhh you’ll scare away all the tech illiterate potential wealthy investors with your logical questions
I hope we can solve this one day. But I imagine there’s a 35% energy loss in the process
@@MrKrinkleKirnk Yeah ... especially w/ some guy in there talking about weeks & even made some month claims. Loss there has to be steep.
After short short research I’m seeing around 50% efficient which is significantly less than lithium ion at 90%. However the cost to produce the thermal batteries is significantly less. So like most things in energy the solution is probably a combination of a lot of different things
For those interested in reading, the Department of Energy recently published an article ("Achieving the Promise of Low-Cost Long Duration Energy Storage", Aug 24) discussing a bunch of grid-scale energy storage technologies, including thermal energy storage, and what can be done to bring down costs.
Note our primary customers are heavy industrial facilities that require 24/7 heat, not electricity. That heat is currently being produced by natural gas-fired boilers that in some cases have been operating uninterrupted for decades. We take intermittent power that is low cost, or even negative cost during hours of overgeneration and curtailment, and convert that to the high temperature heat that industrials need. Industry is the largest emitter of CO2 and 74% of industry's emissions come from heat, not electricity, to drive industrial processes.
While heating the planet.. Or, how the irony mountain grows every day
Thank you! Used ChatGPT to summarize as it was 51 pages! woof.
You’re so cool for this
Thank you
The issue with renewables is that they cut into the profits of fossil fuel generators.
California is constantly hitting overproduction in energy due to solar panels but can't inject that energy into the grid because it'll hurt shareholder feelings by driving down energy costs.
Instead we sell that overabundance to nearby states.
Renewables won't kick off if we keep prioritizing profits.
This is wrong…. When solar all generate power at the same time, it drives the cost down and solar investors don’t recoup their costs.
Thank you for the info
Seeing the UA-cam recommended videos dating 5 years back right under this video speaking directly about these same batteries.
We've had 200MWhs+ of customer project announcements this year after our first commercial pilot in 2022. We've also partnered with some of the world's largest energy developers on 3GWhs+ of deployment partnerships. Keep in mind, the solar industry and lithium ion storage industry was much, much slower to reach the same scale and capacity.
@@rondoenergy4228 , yet the exponential curve of solar/wind and LFP battery systems in the past couple of years has blown every cost analyst's projections out of the water. We need all the energy storage options that make sense. We should use thermal energy storage for thermal energy demand and battery energy storage for electricity demand.
I'm always curious about newer technologies. Thanks CNBC
So old fashioned 'storage heaters' are back. In the old days cheap electricity was used to heat bricks inside a heater which then would release the heat during the small hours in the house.
Yep! Similar to that but at industrial scale.
Thank you for the info
Aren't there already salt or liquid sodium battries that just heat up salt to the point it melts and stores it. Apparently it loses like 0.5⁰c every day....how good is this compared to that
Probably more cost effective
I thinks its more expensive and more corrosive to store and its high in maintenance
the last time I saw they used sand cheaper but may be less efficient
I heard of it. The one near Las Vegas uses light to heat salt and use that heat to transform into electricity.
It think these bricks just happen to be cheaper and most cost effective. Especially to provide heat in the form of steam for industrial processes. Providing a large heat sink allows a factory to get steam 24hrs while being only supplied by intermittent renewables. This makes sense.
@@JorvsUchihaCorrect. There are big sand batteries in use in Finland. The good thing is that they use the "cheap" sand that isn't used in concrete also. They're indeed cheap, but the energy conversion costs are rather substantial.
All this is new 😊🌞😊 combining forces of wind, solar, with thermal storage 🌿 great news!
Great video, we will need more battery solutions for the future grid
Storing energy as heat is such an interesting concept! 🔥
Like, in theory you could replace every boiler with this tech. My factory has two big ones running at all times to heat 45k lb aqueous batches up from room temp to 200 deg for reaction. Rather than run a boiler off natural gas, we could store peak energy during the day and release it throughout the day as needed as superheated steam.
Now you're thinkin in power, why use electrical systems or gas when you can use a simple up front investment to have a continuos supply with low costs of replacement and maintenance? If you cut things off at the source and give people a relatively profitable alternative, you can nip adoption issues In the bud.
Yes!
Yes this!
And using the heat directly should make for the least loss of heat in transfer. or ?
@@Hippida Yes, it should be a direct energy transfer from the battery to the steam water supply.
если вы вместо газового котла поставите ПГУ - это окажется дешевле. а если добавить низкотемпературный конденсатный контур - это окажется еще и выгодно.
200 градусов вы не получите никаким способом кроме прямой конверсии. слишком дорого все такие варианты получаются, тепло по цене электричества
another excellent report CNBC, keep up the good work...👍
NO... this is typical journalism to influence share prices.
This method seems very accessible and easy for anyone with the knowledge how to make
Yeah, it's called a fireplace with a brick surround. Turning that heat into electricity is not efficient, though. This is not a replacement for "normal batteries," as they're trying to claim.
This is a really interesting innovation! Thanks for the coverage CNBC!!
These type of videos gives me hope
That it is able to deliver steam on a constant basis is HUGELY attractive.
The best way is to pump water up a dam and use it later or to desalinate the water and put it into lakes and reservoirs
This is not a way to decarbonize heavy industrials that need heat -- not electricity.
The BEST way is to use Geothermal energy but current technologies have problems drilling down far enough. Iceland is OK because it is near the surface. If successful geothermal could power the WHOLE WORLD with LIMITLESS energy.
Two thirds of energy is thrown away. There are two types of energy here. Thermal Energy. Electrical Energy. Thermal is cheap. Electric is expensive. Electricity can convert to thermal. But only about a third of thermal can be converted to electrical. This is an extremely inefficient way of storing energy.
True, but if it is cheap enough or safe enough or flexible enough (not saying it is) then the inefficiency might not be a major issue.
It is an important variable to consider tho... One of many variables...
But its a great way to store heat, & many hard to decarbonize industrial processes could benefit from it.
@@desiv1170 only 20ish% of our grid is coming from solar and wind, imagine a 66% lose of power on that because we decided to go all in on thermal batteries and store electricity in the worst way possible.
If you watched the video, they clearly indicate the focus on industrial uses with an emphasis on heat.
@@ghost25killer Hyperbole much?
It's not "the worst way possible.." 🙂It's just not as efficient as some others. Which is important to know, but there are many variables to consider for what is a good technology for a chosen use case; efficiency is just one of those variables.
Does it mean this isn't the right choice? Maybe. Maybe not.
Very interesting concept! I hope it turns out to be a viable method for widespread use.
really happy to see this for a lot of reasons, including that lithium is limited and mining it is problematic, so if we can reduce the situations where it's needed, that's better. all the more-so for grid-scale projects which are enormous. also love how clean this process is.
when I heard anything that is un-pure but still can do some incredible things, I will consider it over promising.
Storing cheap energy and selling it when it's expensive is a no-brainer.
Buy low, sell high?
Storage is the problem though, u lose heat over a short period of time
It's an interesting tech. If you're using it to get electricity back, you of course suffer some additional losses in going back from heat. However there are so many uses where it's the heat that is needed. Industry especially. But also others. There is somewhere in Europe (don't recall where) where they are testing a system like this for a municipality. They use a steam system for heating houses & other structures during the winter. Using the heat directly lowers the loses & in their case they simply tap into existing infrastructure.
Yep! We primarily sell heat to customers, but also have announced projects that are in a combined heat and power configuration.
This is genius ❤
Rondo it's what power plants crave
Yes!
This was how some houses in England would heat. They had thermal mass under the floors and heated it at night when there was not the demand from industry and kept the coal plants running. Now there is less industry and now there is extra wind at times.
Yes!
@@rondoenergy4228my brother in law bought a house couple of years ago and now he built up walls of clay inside and plaster the outside also with clay. It looks very beautiful and the feeling/climate inside the very nice. Unfortunately the ceiling was already pretty low so he couldn't put floor heating in it and use a heat pump. Hopefully he will put some solar panels on the roof in the future to make it really nice
We need large scale now.
The piece seems to ignore Sodium-ion batteries, which are mostly made from......salt.
For large commercial applications, using sand, rocks, concrete, graphite are much cheaper
@@larryc1616 electricity is a higher form of energy, heat is the lowest.
that's why heat to electricity (ex coal to electricity) is only 25-30% efficient whereas electricity to heat is 100% efficient. Can also use electricity with heat pumps to get a cheat 400% efficiency
They are ignoring it. Because ths video is not about that.
This is about hot rocks, not hot salt.
@@A3Kr0n the problem with hot rock or similar technology that you have energy as heat so you can use it as it is or you will get losses then you convert it to electricity, no mention that this conversion will be quite difficult to control because it will be not constant and of course this conversion will cost money. With melted salt technology you have electricity in the output. For humanity electricity is the most important and most consumable energy form. This hot rock energy technology I see using only in factories where you need direct heat in production and also in the cold cities where central heating system is used. But in winter you have low sun exposure and not so much wind...
Thermal energy storage is vitally important in the global energy transition. Many residential and industrial processes directly use heat. At home there is hot water and home heating which is a big part of a home's energy budget. As price of home batteries are still high, there is an opportunity to store heat for later use from the grid electricity (or better rooftop solar) and use it later thus relieving the grid of peak demand loads when everyone wanting it: evening time (duck curve), winter storms, etc.
As the video pointed at 5:18, a pound of bricks stores more energy than pound of lithium batteries, and at a significantly lower price too.
On a larger scale, the world uses about 620-exajoules of energy annually. Only some 100-exajoules of it is electricity. The rest is basically a type of heat from internal combustion engines, jet engines, building HVAC, and industrial processes like manufacturing steel & concrete.
Yes!
In the Isentropic process a gas like argon is kept in 2 gravel stores differentially, hot 500c and cold -160c using a gas turbine pump system. When electricity is available it spins up the turbine that pumps argon gas from the cold side to the hot side. When electricity is needed, the process is reversed. The round trip eff is said to be about 75%. The company behind it was built by a turbine engineer with UK gov support, when the company folded it was taken over by Nottingham University, search
In another approach that has similar efficiency, air is frozen with steel tanks containing the liquified air and a sand store holds the captured compression heat. When the heat is used to recover the air from the liquified air, the system recovers electrical energy at about 50-60% eff.
QuantumScape will be a big winner in this arena
Because of this video 2025 it's gonna be a great year 😊 thanks for sharing those great tips
Good use case using underground heat to heat the batteries then photovoltaic? Savings?
This should be a big part of the future of energy.
Great news for EVs. More affordable electricity. Furthermore USA gains leadership in battery technology.
The answer is the storage must be what the land provide. If alot of water, then water batteries,
if sand then molten sand batteries. One is not the answer.
Very cool. Please install at every substation in the world. For my house basement I am thinking 4" of foam R20 covered by a sheet of concrete board with electric heating coils throughout smothered in self levelling grout covered by another layer of concrete board reheated by 30 solar PV panels installed near vertically along my central Canadian fence.
Can’t wait for a brick battery in my car.
My truck battery is a brick right now at 15F outside.
It's not only for vehicles. It's rather for industrial use
Heat to electricity efficiency is 60% more likely 40% or lower in this case. What's the shipping cost of these batteries? They got to be heavy.
We are selling heat to our customers, not electricity. We are 98% efficient electricity-in to heat-out. Our customers are purchasing heat from us to replace gas-fired boilers that generate heat 24/7.
There was a similar hype about space-based solar panel technology, because European scientists said it was easy to create. Yet the energy loss due to the transfer process is too big
The energy loss for thermal storage in bricks and the like is about 30-41%, so it definitely has tradeoffs compared to batteries but for excess cheap energy it's not terrible.
@@BendsSpace I hope you're right
Great video highlighting the potential of thermal batteries! However, it misses the game-changing role of cold energy storage, especially in hotter climates where cooling can consume up to 70% of electricity. Technologies like EnergiVault from O-Hx provide rapid discharge capabilities, cutting costs and emissions while meeting peak cooling demands. Cold energy storage is a vital and disruptive part of the energy transition! 🌍❄
Great God $75k biweekly changed my mindset and behavior, my goals, my family and l've to say this video has inspired me a lot!!!! ❤️
I'm feeling really motivated.
Could you share some details about the biweekly topic you brought up?
Thanks to my co-worker (Alex) who suggested Ms Kimberly Beth Rosa
She's a licensed broker in the states 🇺🇸
After I raised up to 325k trading with her I bought a new House and a car here in the states also paid for my son's surgery (Oscar). Glory to God.shalom.
WOW 😳I know her too!Miss Kimberly Beth Rosa is a remarkable individual whom has brought immense positivity and inspiration into my life.
Кажется, фантастика. Собирать и хранить тепло и это рентабельно.😮
It’s interesting how videos like these treat China like it doesn’t exist despite its importance
yeah keep it usa or north America china is just wanting to be on spotlight
China is literally destroying America in the green energy race. 60% of global green energy is China. America is taxing Chinese solar panels because they can't even keep up.
It goes without saying that this video wouldn't even exist if China had not moved the needle while everyone else slept. It must be interesting to you because you're braindead
Seems this tech solves a problem for power plants and not directly for the general public. So it’s easy to see why it’s not as widely known. It sounds promising though.
Power plants can be retrofit with Rondo to drive steam turbines with zero carbon heat from intermittent renewables instead of 24/7 natural gas. However, our primary customers require heat as heat -- not as electricity.
if they so cheap why the bills so big? who stealing ?
"almost nobody knows about it". I find it hard to believe that that is the biggest hurdle. If it's cost effective and functional, customers will come.
Here's the thing you need to know about heat/thermal storage. Converting electricity onto heat and storing it is a 99% efficient process. It's converting the heat back into electricity is were you're gonna take the hit in the efficiency. Thanks to the 2nd law of thermodynamics, would be lucky to get an efficiency better then 35%. Thermal storage has it's place, like storing heat for heating you home during off peek times. Your hot water tank is a prime example of a thermal battery, storing anywhere from 70 to 100kw of energy, many power companies in exchange for cheaper rates, will install a remote control device on you HW tank to turn it off during peek times. Just don't expect to turn all that hot water back in electricity any time soon. Thermal storage has it's place, but trying to use it to store electricity? Ya! That's nothing but a pipe dream.
This could be somewhat useful for district heating systems. Through the day there is typically times when there might be a little bit too much power being produced. If you could have this connected to the grid and it just took that power and converted it to heat then during peak times the heat could be used. The grid operators would most likely just give that extra power for free since it would save them some headaches. Obviously that would only work in areas where they have excess power from time to time like grids with a lot of renewables. If the grid has natural gas power plants for baseload they want to keep those running so even if the power isnt free it would be extremely cheap and with a system like this it could be turned off and on quickly to follow the load.
You're missing the idea. It's not about running a heat engine to convert back to electricity. They are using this to supply process heat in industries so that at times of peak load, more valuable electricity doesn't need to be wasted on process heat.
We are selling heat, as heat, directly to industrial customers to replace or eliminate gas-fired boilers that generate heat. We can also deploy combined heat and power solutions, but our primary customers are purchasing heat.
@@rondoenergy4228great, do you use these clay bricks?
Then just triple the amount of heat batteries. They’re 1/10th the price per pound compared to battery cells.
This gives me hope even though there is none
Unless thermal batteries are 10-100x cheaper, they have no commercial chance vs electric batteries. 5-10 years feom now sodium batteries are likely to be 10x cheaper than now. Mass production beats all! Looks like thermals are also scaling though. So best of luck to them!
An RHB is about 5-10X lower-cost than Li-Ion for the same amount of energy storage -- however note that we are primarily selling HEAT to customers, not electricity. 74% of industrial emissions come from heat -- NOT electricity. Thanks for the kind words!
Stores them as Heat,
Something else to blame global warming on,
The problem with thermal energy storage is that it makes so much sense and requires so little knowledge to do it well , it shouldn't be a money maker. Probably any beginning engineering student should be able to sketch out a working design on a napkin
The thermal batteries in this video are the wrong way because it highlights the drawbacks of thermal energy storage which isn't the storage itself but the conversion and transfer from some other form of energy to thermal and then later to electricity losses can be unacceptably high.
I understand the Chinese are going sing Stirling engines to convert thermal to electricity which is one good solution. Americans apparently aren't satisfied and are trying to invent another solution and one has been high output thermistors
On the input side, any solar concentrator farm is already dealing with high temp heat as the primary form of energy so a simple solution could be to simply expand the reservoir of solution flowing through the system typically molten sodium
As briefly mentioned in the video, the properties, systems and materials used to manage heat are widely known and some hundreds of years old using very cheap materials. Some of those principles are in every water heater and building a/c system.
Metropolitan storage of thermal energy can be very cheap and materials often found in common stores
Hey -- quick correction -- our customers are primarily purchasing heat from us -- not electricity. So we are not experiencing losses from converting heat back to electricity. We are 98% efficient electricity-in to heat-out -- and customers are replacing their gas-fired boilers that produce heat with Rondo Heat Batteries for that very same heat. Molten salt is not a safe solution for factories where safety is paramount, and mirrors require a lot of space to deploy that factories don't have. You experience a lot of efficiency loss transferring heat over distances compared to generating that heat, safely, at the heart of the factory.
Energy storage is the key, once that problem is solved then Wind and Solar will be unstoppable...BUT it will take a LOT of energy storage and the technology needs to build and grow to get where it needs to be.
I can't wait for that holy grail battery to become the predominant source of energy storage. Whatever it is they need to hurry up and get things moving. I stop counting the number of new innovative battery technology that can become the holy grail standard for energy storage. 😎💯💪🏾👍🏾
To think this kind of hot brick have an advantage in cement is crazy.
Rondo, it's what steel plants crave
Benar ini adalah teknologi baru yang hebat bahwa kapasitas daya dari baterai bisa menjangkau simpanan maksimum daya yang sangat besar untuk perangkat yang portable. Apalagi jika masih bisa di naikkan dengan perangkat yang berfungsi menaikkan tegangan pasti penggunaan daya sangat lebih efisien
What is the efficiency of thermal batteries? What is the cost per watt hour? They missed a key point in this article.
Thank you¡¡
Nuclear baseload with this on top would be epic
Yes!
Steel is mentioned multiple times, but I don’t see how this could be used for manufacturing steel
Usuage of the heat generated to later power the plant
@@tklasson that's not "steel manufacturing" though. Might as well say it can power rockets to land on the moon if SpaceX heats up their warehouse with it. Steel manufacturing is a particularly important topic for greenhouse emissions, and it shouldn't just be thrown in the bucket of "well, they heat the cubicles with it". The temperature needed for steel is directly incompatible with many/most/almost all green heating technologies. The only reasonably viable one that I know of right now is burning hydrogen
A school not far from me was built with a thermal thermos. It captures heat during the summer months, and discharge it in winter. This is sand based afik
Thermal Batteries are Good for Largescale Applications and Highway Networks.
Lithium or Sodium Batteries are Good for Microgrids.
Yes the tech seems simple but probably there is a catch, a critical engineering challenge that is not letting this tech flying.
Hots rocks are going to save the planet. I'm satisfied. Back to whatever.
Even better if you use it just for central heating, because then you wouldn't be converting it back to electricity, but directly warming up water. Then it becomes very efficient and the only loss is when storing the thermal energy.
Okay well since you’re already using heat just go the opposite way and chill the thing way down make it into superconducting material to keep electrons rotating forever until you need to use it.
How about using the electricity to pump water to an uphill state during the peak production and regenerating electricity by the way of hydroelectric power via letting the water stream down.
There’s nothing novel about this, other than the economics related to cheap renewable electricity. I’ve been using my electric water heater as a thermal battery for years. 220V timers are quite cheap and easy to install inline with a water heater - just set the on-time to periods in the day when your grid is heavy on renewables (10am-3pm here in Arizona). Electric water heaters are so well insulated that you will only lose about 5-10 degrees off of your set temperature after about 20 hours.
How does this compare to Flow batteries?
How would batteries like this perform in extreme cold temperatures and winter climates. I've had so many problems with the new battery for my car that I've bought to replace and it only seemed to have had problems in cold weather 🤔
Can this work without subsidies?
Yes!
How about water heating for a suburb??? Much cheaper, easier to transport form of energy storage
What happened to nano batteries?
Basically the characteristics of these batteries is that they are huge, heavy, and cheap. They are way worse than lithium batteries in terms of efficiency and how long they can hold energy but that doesn’t matter when the energy is renewable and the batteries are 10% of the cost
the energy loss is absolutely massive on just the conversion alone
In whole video they are not telling how this heat energy will turn back into electricity. This is probably to heat up manufacturing materials. I don't see how this can work in residential setup.
We primarily sell heat (hot air or steam) to customers who use natural gas to generate heat to drive their processes -- not electricity. Heat alone (not electricity) is responsible for 74% of industrial emissions. We are 98% efficient electricity-in to heat-out. Right now we are focused on the largest consumers of energy in the world -- heavy industrials. There are other companies that are working on heat batteries at smaller scale for residentials. We also can do a combined heat and power solution at very high efficiencies.
@@SSModi852 In residential settings thermal batteries can provide district heating for neighborhoods or apartment buildings...heat exchangers create steam & & feed directly into radiators in houses & apartments.
It is safe to use and sustainable for the long run?
they say you can't store ac but it allreasy been done in old tv(CRT) screens some times it pays to look back
Hold on, why are these manufactured on the opposite side of the world's biggest ocean? Do we have a lack of clay in the ground?
Salt works allot better.
BS........energy losses to big .......they don't say for how long can that stored energy last until becomes zero
We're 98% efficient electricity-in to heat-out -- and we sell HEAT to customers who need heat, not electricity. We operate 24/7/365, just like industrial-scale gas-fired boilers do. Charging for 4-6 hours per day to sell heat 24/7.
@@rondoenergy4228bollocks. 98% efficiency is impossible... Unless you're ∆T is very low, you are going to have significantly higher thermal loses to the environment, even if the reservoir and pipes are extremely well insulated.
Either you are lying or have very dodgy data
it stores heat, but can it be used to store and output electricity. because that what is needed to replace batteries.
Electricity long distance transport is a good way to solve the problem of supply/demand.
Trapping heat for a longer period?
People talk about cheap energy, but my bills are going up every year
This has nothing to do with the introduction of renewables and everything to do with how energy is traded and the use of fossil fuels. Energy is traded at the price of the currently most expensive source of electricity on the grid. So say a peaker coal or gas station is switched on then the price will be set by the price of those fossil fuels irrespective of how much renewables is currently in use and the price of those fossil fuels has gone up. In order for us to see the benefits of renewables we need to rid our grids from the older more expensive technologies or in the short term put solar on your roof. However that depends on what state you are in as for example in California I think it is, they have started to put penalties on roof top solar, as they are generating too much solar on off peak times and don’t yet have enough storage to soak up the excess and as more people put more solar on their roofs the grid providers demand for electricity drops and they still have expensive base load stations (such as Nuclear) that cannot be easily switched on or off, that must be paid for. So they discourage more people from putting solar on their roofs, to prevent more electricity from going to waste and keep demand for the base stations steady. The transition is difficult but not impossible for the grids but the inflationary price of electricity is not because of renewables, though many will tell you otherwise.
Get solar panels thrn
Cheap energy, as in getting cheaper to produce and store. Nothing to do with you, might some day.
Cheaper than bricks is the Sand battery Silo. Uses completely cheap common Sand and heat's IT and store's IT. No need for insulation. Just use more Sand. The Sand battery is better.
Sand batteries are great, but they can't achieve the high temperatures required for many industrial processes.
This could be game changing, but again there is probably some drawbacks with this technology to, against lithium ion batteries and other technologies like liquid sodium or salt batteries.
The wealth transfer is in the fact that BlackRock can invest in these up and coming energy-technology companies and I cannot.
Could you use thermal battery bricks in home construction?
WHY NOT JUST MAKE THERMAL POWER PLANTS IN EVERY CITY!? Earth is full of heat, y’all, 1000ft below or higher. Pipe down, pipe up. This is an expensive red herring
Conservatives and fossil fuel industry will block it.
@@larryc1616 bet the dems are against it too. None of the politicians want real change; especially nothing that could lead to utopia
The process would require electricity since thermal pipes can t passively transfer heat down below towards a cool surface without significant energy loss.
@ You must have skipped elementary science class. Water goes down because of gravity, steam goes up because of heat and conduction/convection. The system would generate largely net positive energy. Iceland is powered by 90% geothermal electricity. Look it up
have to wait years before things evolve
I can image a fictional universe of a futuristic stone age.
Heat is a degraded form of energy. The turbine coupled to the system to re-transform into electricity requires a low temperatue point, a heat exchanger an a turbine . The total energy yield of such a system is limited bu the Carnot rule: 30% likely, to 50% in some specific conditions. An electrical battery has a conversion yield of 90%.
"steel and baby food."
In my opinion, most efficient and effective will be mercury based technologies. These technologies were used centuries ago and almost forgotten in our days. Forgotten, because mercury based technologies do provide electrical energy independence in different levels. Technologies, such as golden mercury, do need modern time science to be developed. In many technical areas we see today representation of very complicated and expensive tech., instead of simple and cheaper tech. I could be related to will of control and bully less rich countries, make those countries compete and waist more money on inefficient technologies or, simply, buy those tech.😊
Except, wind power is has very low efficiency, is very difficult to repair, and once the product is useless, it goes to the dump. The answer is small, efficient, nuclear plants.
Rondo Heat Batteries can accept all forms of electricity to generate the lowest-cost heat available, lower-cost than status quo gas-fired heat.
how does it compare with concentrated solar-heat technology what was invented long ago?
1) Ditch conventional EVs
2) Normalize hydrogen EVs (FCEV)
3) Utilize renewable sources to generate hydrogen through electrolysis and store the captured H2 gas.
Stored H2 won't degrade over time unlike batteries, and the efficiency is up to 80%.
Storage is great but that doesn’t address growing demand. The only way we’ll keep up with demand is nuclear energy.
Growing demand from what exactly? These LLM processing datacenters?
@ yes
As long as you don’t build wind turbines near oceans, apparently it makes whales go crazy due to vibration or frequency
Yep the vibration seams to effect some battery car jockeys also.
@@0Aus idk.