Thanks so much for watching. If you guys are interested in leaning more about bikes with these different systems, feel free to check out the link in the video description! ✌
As always an informative video. One benefit you neglected to mention about the IGH (geared or CVT) is a single chain line which keeps a chain in a straight line, no bending between high & low gears.
+1 for Enviolo +2 for Rolhoff well done Chris i like these videos. Owning both transmissions in separate ebikes your descriptions are spot on, my Enviolo bike tows the dog trailer almost everywhere it goes. I use the R&M Rolhoff for general recreational riding as the new Bosch CX motor is such an upgrade over the previous generation.
Good information as usual. thanks Chris. Two things to add: 1. There are other internal gears than Rohloff and Enviolo out there in the market. But all of them are limited to 50Nm torque, hence the can‘t be combined with the stronger motors. Exception is the Shimano 5 speed, but it has a small range. My wife and I are above 50 and the performance motor for us was a must. We want to enjoy effortless riding even in hilly sections. 2. For my wife I bought a Riese&Mueller Culture with external gear in order to save some money. That was the wrong decission!🤢 For my wife every stop seems to come as a surprise and she is used to shift gears at stand still. Still after a year. I regret not having ordere the Enviolo. The additional internal friction is more than off set by the performance motor and the user experiance is superb.
Michael Gladbacher I’m riding a Giant Dailytour E+1 with Yamaha motor, Gates Carbon belt and Nexus IGH with Revoshift at 60Nm. Fantastic set up and bike. Not one single review on the internet and it’s a fantastic commuter.
Phil, I value your opinion. But I can assure you that life is not black and white.Keeping fit is important, but this does not mean that you have to train all the time and exclusively. My wife and I enjoy cycling effortlessly through fields and vineyards, then to a restaurant without sweating, and then perhaps riding a single trail through the forest back home. The Ebike is a tool that enables us to cycle together even over longer distances and a strong motor is a fun factor.
I happened to be in the market for a r&m bike, when UA-cam started suggesting your channel. Got everything and more i needed to know from your videos! Now Im happy to say, my bike is underway! Thanks for that, keep up the good work and stay safe.
@@Propelbikes I went for the multicharger vario. I wanted a bike to comfortably commute to work. But i fly drones as a hobby so being able to go out with all my gear was the seller for me.
Tom Whitby I absolutely agree. I’m fed up with washing, brushing, degreasing and re-greasing chains, cassettes and chain rings! I’m looking forward to testing an Enviolo + belt on a R&M Delite or Superdelite.
@@ruirodtube I started my bike search with "Belt-Driven EMTB" and that's how I found the R&M Superdelite I just ordered. Chris's reviews were really useful in the search and I actually order at the beginning of lockdown as something to look forward to when this crisis is over!!
@@Propelbikes Thanks - I am still in the market for a FOLDING belt drive compact commuter bike like the Gocycle to take on the train. Any recommendations? Carbo bikes are the closest I've seen...but I don't know the brand...
My biggest problem is that I don’t weight the importance of the drivetrain decision high enough to find an ebike that I like that also has the drivetrain that I like. I want a folding ebike with an extremely low step through frame with a belt drive with internal gearing. That bike doesn’t exist yet as far as I know.
With the Enviolo hub, you can shift under load when you have the motor turned off or in eco, but if you have the motor in turbo, you cannot shift under load and do need to stop pedaling for a hundred milliseconds or so, so that the motor can disengage before you can shift. Pretty easy and fun, but worth noting.
We've had bikes with derailleurs, Enviolo and Rohloff E-14. Each has their merits as you suggest. One plus for the Rohloff E-14 over the Enviolo, is I find it a little easier to disconnect if I have to remove the rear wheel to fix a flat tire. On the Enviolo, you have to disconnect the shift cables. The Rohloff E-14 requires you to unplug a connector on an electronic communication cable. A little easier, but you do need to be careful to keep that cable connector free of dirt or moisture while it is unplugged.
I assume you have the rohloff with electronic shifting. I have read somewhere the connector was not great and one guy cat the cable a little further alone put a more robust waterproof connector in. Do you notice the efficiency enviolo vs rohloff?
@@EdgeMasterPro Yes, the E-14 is the electronic version of the Rohloff. The electrical connector is a little fiddly, but it works. Just have to be careful to disconnect it before you go yanking off the wheel. I much prefer the Rohloff to the Enviolo. Both because the Rohloff makes pulling the wheel off the bike easier, but also because the Rohloff has less drag when pedaling. The Enviolo is great for a novice rider though, as it is easy to shift.
There's a funny development with e-bikes in the Netherlands, the amount of e-bikes sales have increased by more then 300% since the beginning of COVID. And most consumers here buy an internal hub, Nexus being the most popular. But a 7 or 8 speed Shimano hub is just too many gears to go through since our country has practically no hills, the Shimano 5 speed hub you mentioned in the video is now the most popular hub for e-bikes in the Netherlands.
If you aren't a sportive or rough terrain rider but looking for a clean, realiable, low maintenance drive I would always go with an internal gear hub and belt drive. Same for commuters and all year long distance riders. That lost of efficiency is easyly compensate by support of electric motor. Having Gates CDX belt drive together with punch resistance tires all I've to do is once a year oil bath maintenance on Nexus i8 hub and control air pressure from time to time. Meanwhile the belt has 13000 km and looks to be ready for the next 13000 (8000 mls.)
In the seventies to change gear you hand to reach for the gear level which was mounted on the frame and feel for each gear. Thumb and trigger is a massive improvement Having a 400% range on the rear cogs is further better as you do away with the front 3 rings.
Never mind the 1970s. They linger all throughout the 1980s. Gear level has to be precise or the chain would not be properly aligned with the gears, causing a loss in efficiency and you get all kinds of noise from the friction. Turn the level too quickly and you would drop the chain completely off. I sure hate having to stop somewhere and get your fingers black trying to get the chain back on. Now I would never go back to the derailleur system. I would prefer the internal hub, especially the CVT and love the Gates Carbon belt drive.
With time you're getting used to the downtube shifters, you learn to feel and hear the chain, when it catches the next gear, and there is no damage to the chain. It's a kind of balance with the mechanics of your bike. Obviously more modern tech is much more comfortable and user friendly.
Cool video! We just had a similar discussion with friends few days ago but with additional variable: mid drive vs. rear drive. I switched to internal gear mostly because of maintenence. I ride in winter, so mud and salt was damaging derallieur all the time. Now I have two systems: a) Shimano Nexus 8 + chain (Bullitt); b) NuVinci + belt (Butchers). I like the second combination a lot but it is useless when my battery is out of juice :) With chain you can still pedal quite effectively without motor.
Pretty sure it's not because of the belt. It's because of the hub. I have heard the nuvinci has a significant drag. Like mushy feeling especially on low gears. I have ridden for years a belt drive with old Sach duomatic hub and it has close to zero added resistance. I also had an ebike with belt and nexus i5 hub and that had significant resistance which turned into horrible resistance in the cold climate.
On my old, non-electric bike i have a Fichtel & Sachs derailleur / internal hub combo with grip shift (I think an equivalent system is avaliable from SRAM). Always liked it.
I wish there were more internal hubs on the market. I hope we see a resurgence in this segment, it’s a critical piece for quality low cost city ebikes.
Great review, nicely done ... thank you. I ride a mountain bike and love it. Having used a derailleur system most of my life (I'm 50+) I'm very used to it and it's second nature to me. My wife on the other hand is used to a no speeds. She did learn to use a derailleur but I just got her a Specialized Turbo Como 5.0 with the automatic Enviolo and she loves it. No need to put much thought into it, just set your cadence and go; it shifts up and down by itself. I enjoy riding her bike as well, it's a whole different feeling. I can force it to shift by my peddle cadence. It takes getting used to but it's kind of fun. BUT ... for my mountain bike, derailleur all the way.
With ebikes, it seems to me that the question of the number of gears is not as relevant any more. Since you have the motor power mode to assist you while riding uphill, why cares with a very low gear ratio for instance?
Thanks for the very clear explanation and comparison between the different drive systems. In my experience the Enviolo 380 has a bias towards higher speeds for flat or downhill riding and unfortunately it doesn’t offer sufficiently low gears for steep climbs. But when combining the Enviolo with an electric motor you can select more support from the motor to compensate the lack of lower gears. Would you agree?
I think it really all boils down to the gear ratio. The N380 can easily be adapted to have a lower gear available with a large cog in the rear or a smaller one upfront.
The bias you are talking about is all about implementation by the bike's manufacturer. My 20" wheel folding bike (non-electric) from 'Bike Friday' (US manufacturer in Oregon), has a bias towards the lower gear. I purchased this in 2013 with the NuVinci N360 CVT (Continuous Variable Transmission) internal hub with the Gates Carbon belt drive. NuVinci is their original name. Now they changed it to Enviolo. I can climb a crazy hill with that bike. I often ride on a dirt trail climbing all sorts of a steep hill. I love the analog functionality of CVT despite taking a hit on its efficiency (about 10%) compared to a digital/step system internal hub. I'm sure you can take your bike to a bike repair shop to have the cog/crankset gear teeth replace to change the bias toward the lower gear range. Keep in mind that doing this will limit your high gear range where you can't go as fast as you will reach your maximum cadence RPM sooner.
If you’re living in steep terrain, the Rohloff is a must. Don’t make the same mistake like me and destroy your expensive Bosch motor by the insufficient gears on a common drivetrain. Plus, no maintenance. How cool is that?
Really pleased you've started the channel, I currently run a Gazelle with Hub which is great however I recently rode a similar bike with the same motor mated to DERAILLEUR, wow couldn't believe how much more responsive the derailleur was when accelerating. Also I do struggle up the hills with the hub as gears don't offer the cadence required.
A big one he doesn't mention is Pinion, the German gearbox system with a wider more even range than Rohloff. Pinion / Gates is my current #1 fitness all purpose all weather choice with a Priority 600. In an ebike that forces a hub drive system with plenty of good options. The point about chains and derailleur maintenance and cost is well worth considering, especially with the big extra stress of an ebike. I'm on my third chain / cassette combo in 7,000 miles of ebike riding and I'm really getting tired of paying for them and dealing with the sloppiness when they get worn. More so after the Gates/Pinion experience. For Rohloff you'll find it much easier to fit into any number of traditional and custom frames. Where I am, close to the old Paramount shop with Gunnar / Waterford you have any number of Rohloff choices. No Pinion as it requires a custom BB frame build.
The Pinion is a great system, but it’s largely unavailable here in the US. I also haven’t found too many quality hub motor setups here in the US which would be required to make the Pinion more viable. Some brands in Europe have paired the Pinion with a Goswiss motor, but they are now no longer available. I think some other viable options would be Xion since you kind of need advanced internal torque sensing inside the motor. There aren’t too many motors with these specs on the market and there are none in the US unfortunately.
@@Propelbikes Here's a great example desiknio.com/pinionclassic/ In the US unplugged there's CoMotion as a big one along with Zerode for off road zerodebikes.com/bikes And of course in NYC Priorty
@@Propelbikes You sure won't have any problems if you're shopping for them in Germany - other than making up your mind and paying for them pinion.eu/en/e-bikes/
There is also the pinion gearbox. It is an interesting option if you want a more powerfull rear hub motor and internal gears. The Bosch performance line speed is somewhat underpowered to maintain the highest speed with headwind or uphill.
I have Derailleur geared and internally geared bikes and do maintenance on both, but overall, I prefer Internally geared for all the reasons you mention. Additionally, Derailleur gear maintenance increases dramatically during winter months as they readily attract dirt, increasing chain and sprocket wear unless cleaned and lubricated after every ride. I also find gear changing operation is more susceptible to temperature changes, requiring fine tuning of cable tension between chilly days (1C - 3C) Vs warmer days (9C - 10C). I plan to buy an electrical bike, and I will go for internally geared hub with belt drive. The other advantage of this configuration is the front "chain" wheel and rear sprocket are always correctly aligned, further reducing wear. This is rarely the case with Derailleur gears due to the nature of how you select gears, and though the gear change mechanism is mechanically simple in operation, it is quite crude by today's standards.
Please cover affordable systems. We’re all out here trying to find a reasonably light, IGH, belt drive with mid-engine. Reasonable power and reasonable battery AH/range/weight. Rohloff and Reise & Muller are stratospherically priced systems. The options are either underpowered motors and limited range motors or they’re too heavy. What is the right belt driven Enviolo and optimal mid-drive motor with decent range battery under 60lbs and under $3000.?
I gotta admit, I've never had a long period where my derailleurs shifting has been seamless, apart from when I first had it. I've spent ages trying to get it right, cleaned, re-cabled, tuned and I always end up being haunted by shifting niggles, I get by but I hate it. When i got on a Moustache in France last year i couldn't beleive how smooth the shifting was. The Rohloff is too expensive for my budget. Heck, you can buy two decent road bikes for the price of one Rohloff hub!!! So the Enviolo is looking like the main contender atm when i do eventually plumb for it
I’m trying to decided between the Tern HSD S+ and the Riese & Muller Tinker HS. My main concern is that the Tern has the enviolo 380 sport hub and the Tinker has a derailleur. I live in Colorado and after reading reviews on the Tern, I’m concerned that the enviolo might struggle with the some of the hills (not off-roading, just commuting on paved roads). Can you give me any advice?
Thanks for a good review Chris. I've been looking into internally geared hubs for a while now and have also been considering the Shimano alfIne 11 which is similar to the Rohlof but is cheaper and offers a 409% gear range. Do you have a view on these or is it simply down to not being a product you stock?
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it! The Alfine is a great hub, but it can’t handle more than 50Nm of torque. This is okay for many users, but many new motors are 60+ Nm and they don’t play nicely with that hub.
I did own a bike with an Alfine 11 and I put about 5,000 miles (8,000 km) on it. I did encounter a couple of issues with the Alfine 11's strength and durability under hard conditions. I had the hub's seals fail at 1,000 miles and leak out the oil. I also had the disk brake rotor flange shear off the hub body in a panic stop. Also, if you look at the torque limitation of the Alfine 11, you will find you cannot install a chainring and rear cog combination that would provide low gearing - not an issue in flat terrain and less of a concern on an e-bike, but if you live in hilly terrain, possibly a concern. With our Rohloff E-14, we have over 3,000 miles and it feels much more durable.
When I was a kid, 55 years ago, I had a Raleigh 3 speed "English" Racer. It had a 3 speed "Sturmey Archer" internally geared hub. Great bike for its day. Although it was only 3 speeds I could ride it anywhere and never had to worry about a complex derailleur gearing system. It was a simple, rugged, and reliable gearing system. A Do they still make basic 3 speed internally geared bike wheels? If so are they used on electric bikes? For most everyday riding 3 speeds on an electric should be all that's needed and it would certainly be much less expensive than most other internally geared systems. I would also choose a modern belt drive for reliability and low maintenance. One issue with internal gearing on an electric bike is that that a hub motor can't be an option.
Hi I’m buying an ebike from China that has a Sturmey Archer internal gear hub a gates belt drive and a bfang 750/1000 watt motor, should be here in May, like you say low / no maintenance reliable cheap, ticks all the boxes for me.
I used to hate those 3 speed Sturmey Archer hubs because the linkages always broke, the hub itself though was strong enough for all the abuse we as kids gave our bikes!
Brompton folding bikes uses a 3-speed Sturmey Archer hub on their 3-speed and 6-speed versions ( 3 internal hub + 2 speed derailleur). The hubs are now made in Taiwan, not the UK though. They also have an electric version with their own motor.
Very helpful reviews, Chris, in both style and content. Much appreciated. My Questions: - with the 2021 GSD Cargo motor support topping out at 20mph is there much point in the top end extended gear range of the Rohloff vs Enviolo as those top gears only come into play at speeds that are + 20mph when the 85# bike + cargo etc would be hard work to pedal with no assist unless aided by gravity, is that so? - As an older person (64)planning on riding into old age my gut tells me the twist control of the Enviolo would be harder to manage? Impressions? And lastly: why no Cargo speed motors on the GSD? If not on them then what are they putting them on? Thanks.
Hi I like your review,I'm Jerry when I here a message from electric bike review they seem to complain about the parts in the components of a electric bike that don't belong to them that bad for the bike shop that is trying to sell there product.so if I were you .I would watch and here what they are telling about your electric bike.but I'm glad your cindy doing it yourself thank you.
I commute to work with a road bike about 20 round trip. I average right around 17 mpg. I'd like to shorten my time with an Ebike, but am not sure if pre-made ebikes from big companies will meet my needs. I know class 3 bikes can support up to 28mph and then the motor drops out, but I regularly already go that fast on slight hills. Any ideas what system would be best? I like the idea of a belt drive, but there aren't too many class 3 belt drive bikes out there. I think a big front ring paired with bafang motor could easily manage. I just don't want to spin out on the flats or downhill. Any thoughts?
Thanks Chris for this great tutorial! I have three different uses for biking : internal hub enviolo + carbon gates which I found great for my commuting to work (a little less than 10miles one way), we have a "pino tandem" from Hase bikes with the derailleur XLR which is amazing but hard for my wife to use, especially on such a big bike to ride, takes a lot of attention as you said when stopping. And we will receive soon the Birdy from R&M with derailleur as we both have a public transport use combined with biking here in Belgium. Do you consider electronic shifting a good option either for mountain bike owners as you recommend derailleur/Rohloff or for my personal use of tandem or Birdy (but I have not tried yet and it is already a budget!) ? I did try once at the great "Ronde van Vlaanderen" a road cyclist tour from a friend and it was very light/efficient/handy in that purpose.
Thanks for your detailed comment. Sounds like we have similar taste in bikes. Many people do opt for electronic shifting for mountain biking which has its advantages. It’s not really possible to retrofit the E-14, but it’s easier to retrofit electronic shifting on the derailleur.
Thanks for this great video! Have you experienced any reliability issues with the Enviolo CVT? Is it a robust and durable system, or do you see a lot of warranty claims?
Soooo informative - great video - thank you! 🙏🏽 Most manufacturer websites skimp on this kind of info so this is really helpful for filling in the gaps. 😀👍🏽
Very informative review. I recently was in the market for an eBike and wanted one with a belt drive and internal gears. However, the dealer advised me against that because of the difficulty of removing the wheel to repair punctures. I ended up with an excellent eBike with conventionally derailleur gears thereby saving myself a lot of money, around £1,500. However, was he right about the difficulty of removing rear wheels with hub gears?
The effort to remove the wheel varies widely depending on the bike and hub manufacturer. Most we work with make it really easy. The key thing is to not have to tension the belt after removing the wheel, this is a poor way to design a bike from my perspective.
No mention of Nexus / Revoshift which I’ve find really good so far with Gates Carbon belt. And very affordable. I have it with the Yamaha 60Nm syncdrive and I’ve been really impressed. All this on a Giant Dailytour E+1 which a fantastic commuter bike. Not one single written review on the net.
The Nexus is definitely a great hub provided you don’t put too much torque into it. It’s rated for 50Nm so it’s not as popular here. I think it’s a great setup for a city environment though.
Love the video! I am planning of purchasing either the Gazelle Ultimate T10, or the Ultimate C380 with the Enviolo hub for commuting to work. I live in Vancouver, BC, where it often rains, and work at a university called SFU on Burnaby Mountain (an elevation of 1096 feet). Which of the two bikes would you recommend? Thanks.
Bonjour, j'ai acquis un R&M avec Rohloff E14, cela fait la troisième fois que j'ai un problème de connexion électrique, plus important les uns que les autres, à continer, je pense que je vais passer à la commande par câbles. le système parait fragile pour un usage tout chemin.
E-bike goes with a carbon drive, internal gears and disc brakes. Everything else is a fail because you want as maintenance free as it gets. Also, continual variable gears are the future just need to have auto gear down when breaking. Meanwhile the Rohloff internal hub is very nice.
You have the most useful video I found on this topic (and other great videos). I tried a new R&M Enviolo 380 HS bike and I found the highest gear too low to get to top speed! According to the R&M website with Enviolo 380 as the highest gear (9.54m) vs Derailleur (8.36m) and Rohloff (9.3m). In your experience is this true? Or does the inefficiency make the Derailleur or Rohloff better. Thanks in advance.
Thank you! Glad you enjoy! You definitely need to pedal a little harder on the Enviolo to get to 28 due to the lower efficiency. I still think it’s worth it though. If you want the easiest time to hit 28 the Derailleur and Rohloff are a little better, but Enviolo is still the most popular. I think the new Gen 4 software also improves this.
Chris, great video, great information. I very much appreciate your down-to-earth, relaxed, informative style. Have you had an opportunity yet or do you have plans to evaluate the Kindernay hub on an e-bike with a Gates carbon drive?
Question, I am planning to buy a Supercharger 2 HS (45km/h version). Is it true that the Enviolo system generally blocks around 35-38km/h? Is it true that the only option is to go with derailleur or Rohlof to be able to reach the 45km/h? I do not have the budget for the Rohlof, really hesitating between the external & the enviolo... any advice? I do 100km per week in average. Many thx for your answer :)
What did you end up with? I can lease a high speed bike through my employee but I'm torn between Enviolo and Rohlof.. Not reaching 45km/h would be a dealbreaker for sure, but if the Enviolo gets there I'm fine with it. Cheers.
on an electric bike, 3 speeds are all that is needed : low, mid and high gear. the engine will fill the gaps. 7-8 are far too many; the Rohloff serves no purpose for an everyday urban bicycle. A good old, reliable and maintenance-free Sturmey Archer, and a chainring/pinion carefully selected and you're good to go. even on a Nexus 7 you will use 1st, 4th and 7th an that's it.
Hi. I have an Iron Horse Tango Tandem that I'd like an internal hub, so as to have a coaster brake. I'd like to have an mid-motor for it also. Is there a good pairing you could suggest? Thanks.
Bill we'd love to recommend a aftermarket system, but there are none I can give our stamp on at the moment. I would recommend checking out the electricbikereview.com forum and see what others have experienced with kits.
Just got a Cannonale Tesoro Manits very confused by the manual shifting, it is true that you should never shift when you are in assist mode and peddling?
This covers the features and use but nobody talks about reliability and longevity. Ebikes get ridden more often and further so it would be good to know which systems are bullet proof over the long haul.
In my experience the Bosch motor is the most reliable motor system, this is the main reason why we focus on this motor in our shop. For the hubs, I’ve found the internal hubs generally have great reliability provided they are used within the specifications.
Thanks for the video! Wondering if you could use a Sturmey Archer kick back 2 speed hub with mid mount motor? Bafang bbshd is what i am buying. I like the idea of no cable
Hi Chris, this video is very helpful. I spoke to a cargo bike shop near me and they told me the cables with the Enviolo hub tend to freeze in the winter. What’s your experience with this, is there anything that can be done to prevent it?
Have you ever used a shimano nexus 8 speed internal gear hub with a mid mounted motor? Do you think it will hold up well with the extra torque a electric motor can supply? Thanks
Roland, the Shimano Nexus 8 speed is an awesome hub. Just don’t use it with a motor with a torque rating over 50Nm and without some sort of shift protection either Bosch with the software torque based shift detection or other systems with a physical cut-off switch. Otherwise it will perform excellent and provide a good low maintenance solution.
I've got good experiance with the Nexus 8 using a Brose motor and Gates CDX belt in all seasons. Now after 17000 km when just switched into 4th gear sometimes it can't manage the torque. As I don't need the 4th gear often I will wait for next 5000 km maintenance intervall. If the problem proceeds I will replace Nexus with same type. Exchange should be easy when reuse the old hub hull. By its cost a lifetime of 20000 km is just fine with me.
I have a riece muller nevo gt 2022, I find it great,one thing is that when upgrades occur, they are not compatible With one prior, For example , my cycle was ordered December 2022, came January 2023, and my kiox computer has upgraded to model 300.not compatable. This is only one item that upsets me. Only by purchasing a new bike, can one get the new upgradings Regards Michael green
@@Propelbikes the 10% translate then in the same proportion in the lifespan of the battery and daily autonomy. Thanks for this video. As usual, very informative and wo emotion
External gears exposure to dirt water is a constant problem, along with wear on everything. Internal are not exposed to the elements except for the chain. With the belt you're even better off! It's a no brainer!
a pity you're not talking about gears other than enviolo and rolhof. I drive a Pinion gearbox with belt drive. The best choice when driving long distance on a daily bases.
Thank you for the awesome, very informative video. Do u know if Rohloff is working on a internally geared hub combined with a rear hub motor? I am interested in a all wheel drive, dual battery, commuter bike to replace a car. I would like to get to commute speed of 50mph, in order to shorten my commute times, as the distances travel are quite far and I need the speed to keep up with ICE vehicle traffic.
what you're looking for I think the Pinion Gearbox is the best, (but expensive) since it has the largest gear range available at more than 600%, but you'll still need to have a cog ratio on the drivetrain if you want to be able to pedal effectively at 50mph.
Thanks for the video, very informative! Quick question regarding the N380 vs Rohloff: do you know what the final gear ratio on each of these are? Which one would have the higher theoretical top speed, given the same amount of pedalling?
The Rohloff has the widest gear range. Even wider than some derailleur system. You will get a higher top speed on the Rohloff for the same amount of pedaling simply because the gear range of the Rohloff is so much wider than the N380. I'm currently using the NuVinci N360 on my Bike Friday Silk folding bike purchased in 2013. You can read some of my replies (see anything above from here). You should at least try riding a bike equipped with a CVT. It is unbelievably smooth with virtually no clicks, no vibration, no sound at all, and it is instantaneous. Most people who tried riding my bike described as surreal. That is the only cool thing about CVT. Too bad the don't make it with something even wider than the 380%. If you want speed and climb steep hills, go with the Rohloff. It is also lighter and about 10% more energy-efficient compared to the NuVinci. The penalty on the Rohloff: super expensive and you will still get all that clicks noise and can feel the tiny vibration from the gear change. I test rode San Diego's FLX Blade 2.0 electric mountain bike equipped with the Rohloff and Gates Carbon Belt drive just about 3 weeks ago. The smoothness of the CVT is no comparison.
The 10% efficiency penalty is pretty massive. That’s 10% capacity gone from your battery regardless of its health. If your pedals with zero assist it’s like a 10% weight penalties on inclines. I guess city commuting worth the cash. Good to remember some people have put 300,000km on Rohloff hubs you can always reuse the hub on a new bike be it e bike or not in the future. I really would like to rest ride both. Here in Australia not so lucky with choice and test ride I don’t mean a 3 minute ride around the block.
Just saying with my 80s non index top shifters I can shift top to bottom gear on a 5/6/7 speed instantly so long as teeth are profiled... And to to the middle quite easily, it's just moving one at a time that's difficult compared to modern shifters but for urban use not as important I find.
Hi Chris! thanks for the informations. I want to ask something. Which electric motor and chain system do we need on a delivery bike in a cities such as Amsterdam or UK and for example for uber eats or for deliveroo? And which one is more efficient and low cost too for delivery bikes?
I think there are some different bikes available in Amsterdam or the UK. I would consider getting a Bosch motor due to its reliability. It would be nice to have a belt and an internal hub, but they will add to the cost. If I was doing that job I would consider spending a bit more upfront though to improve reliability and service intervals.
Great review. Thanks for making great video for us. I have seen a lot of videos about rohloff speedhub and nuvinci mechanical hub. But I cannot find a really great video for enviolo automatiq. Can you make a good video for enviolo automatiq?
Damn, I just got a Nexus 3 to pair with my BBSHD thinking it was going to be okay. I'm not hotrodding anything, but seems like I may have issues coming my way.
I’ve owned two bikes fitted with the Rolhoff 14 speed hub love the convenience of them over derailleur system but I think derailleur is more efficient in my experience
If it is ebike and you are going to do a lot of mileage belt drive is no-brainer. Less maintenance is a blessing but for those who ride from time to time it would mean some extra money without significant benefits.
Derailleur is very efficient and light, rohloff has a very wide range and belt, enviolo has a belt and not enough shifting range + shifting is annoying. Chain or rohloff is the way to go.
I've owned a Bosch powered speed pedelec with a Nuvinci 360 and Gates Carbon Drive but currently own an ebike with a hub motor and conventional derailleur gears. Other than the Gates Carbon drive, which I became a fan of I do prefer the latter arrangement on my present bike. The Nuvinci 360 of my first e-bike began to seep oil not long after its purchase, this was addressed but a while later the issue re-emerged. In respect to a speed pedelec the Nuvinci 360 didn't quite have the ratio to match its higher speed. I do appreciate though its ratio has since increased to 380 percent, but I'm willing to bet that this would not make much of a difference. Ideally I'd love to have or try a 14 speed Rohloff mated to a Carbon drive, but that set up is expensive and only certain manufacturers offer such a thing, particularly over varying types of e-bikes, so well done Reise and Muller here! I'm happy with my current set up, the hub motor is quieter and more powerful than any Bosch offering, but admittedly I haven't tried their Gen 4 motors, it also doesn't resist free-pedalling like my first e-bike did to some extent. The conventional deraileur system is also set up with enough range to keep up with my bike's higher speed too, but most importantly it's easy to address should any problem occur and keeps the bike in a sensible price bracket in the first instance. So unless I could reasonably afford the top stuff I'd now always opt for something familiar every time.
Good feedback. It’s interesting that you had the leaking issue. This is very very rare with the new 380 version. I can understand the concern about efficiency though. Rohloff is an amazing setup and I highly recommend trying the new Gen 4 motor. I think you will appreciate the improvements.
@@Propelbikes Thanks for the reply. When I had the leaking issue I did look into the matter and realised I was not alone in having experienced it, but I'm glad to hear that this has pretty much been ironed out with the new 380 version. As a comparison I would like to try a 4th Gen motor in respect to my first e-bike, especially if it was mated to 14 speed Rohloff and Gates Drive! It would not be fair performance-wise to compare it my current ride which is far quicker than an s-pedelec and I do realise I'm flying under the radar with this, but I was with the s-pedelec and anyway I'd still get 'roadies' take me on that! My current ride is this - www.back2green.ch/produkt/blue-xtr-speciale-3-1-2/
Anyone who ever owned a e-bike with center motor, should realize that a belt drive is superiour to chain in most regards. If you drive it in any amount of milage, know how many chains and sprockets you go trough. Rohloff gear is the best internal gear made....so far...only con, is the price. I sell ebikes.
Propel Electric Bikes i like it too, but the handle is not suitable for ppl with weak hands, some elderly find it difficult to change. But funktionality of the gear itsself is good
Propel Electric Bikes i like it too, but the handle is not suitable for ppl with weak hands, some elderly find it difficult to change. But funktionality of the gear itsself is good
\\\New Subscriber/// What an excellent video; Great stuff . I'm very new to the E-bike market, however I am trying to get as much information as possible to crunch the numbers in order to pick my new/first ebike to commute to work "sometimes" and for leisurely rides from time to time. I want POWER because I'm old and very large so I need comfort torque reliability and functionality in the bike. I am aware that this will not be a cheap package, but I would really appreciate your help in giving me options that I may not be aware of from my research. At present, the bikes on my short list are; Specialised Vado 4.0, and 5.0 2022, Cube Kathmandu Hybrid Pro 625 2022, Cannondale Tesoro Neo X 3, Haibike Trekking 10 i625 2021, Raleigh Centros CB 2022 Hub, Ridgeback Advance 3 2022,. Now I know it's practically impossible for you to choose for me, however can you whittle this list down and/or add a bike which is not on this list which I should be considering... Thank you very much for your help. Martin.
Hi I have a kalkhoff Sahel 8speed internal hub failed 3000 miles, would not recommend kalkhoff very bad customer service.They are so big a company they don’t care about,after sales,just new, after that your on your own.Darby cycles own most bike manufacturers.
Sorry to hear you had such trouble. Was your dealer able to assist you? They should be able to get some help from Shimano on that issue. That would be the standard protocol. There is also required service overtime on that hub.
Propel Electric Bikes Thankyou for your reply,Yes I did eventually get help from shimano,But I also had one new electric motor fitted under warranty,Then I had problems with that,just after the gears were fixed ,which they said was out of warranty,so I payed 650£ and had to wait January to April.So with the gears and motor I lost all faith in kalkhoff,sorry but that’s it.many thank malcolm
Thanks so much for watching.
If you guys are interested in leaning more about bikes with these different systems, feel free to check out the link in the video description! ✌
As always an informative video. One benefit you neglected to mention about the IGH (geared or CVT) is a single chain line which keeps a chain in a straight line, no bending between high & low gears.
Great point for sure! Thanks for mentioning it
+1 for Enviolo +2 for Rolhoff well done Chris i like these videos. Owning both transmissions in separate ebikes your descriptions are spot on, my Enviolo bike tows the dog trailer almost everywhere it goes. I use the R&M Rolhoff for general recreational riding as the new Bosch CX motor is such an upgrade over the previous generation.
Awesome feedback! I totally agree and it must be nice to have those options at home. Sounds like you know how to have fun! :)
Good information as usual. thanks Chris.
Two things to add:
1. There are other internal gears than Rohloff and Enviolo out there in the market. But all of them are limited to 50Nm torque, hence the can‘t be combined with the stronger motors. Exception is the Shimano 5 speed, but it has a small range.
My wife and I are above 50 and the performance motor for us was a must. We want to enjoy effortless riding even in hilly sections.
2. For my wife I bought a Riese&Mueller Culture with external gear in order to save some money.
That was the wrong decission!🤢
For my wife every stop seems to come as a surprise and she is used to shift gears at stand still. Still after a year.
I regret not having ordere the Enviolo. The additional internal friction is more than off set by the performance motor and the user experiance is superb.
Michael Gladbacher I’m riding a Giant Dailytour E+1 with Yamaha motor, Gates Carbon belt and Nexus IGH with Revoshift at 60Nm. Fantastic set up and bike. Not one single review on the internet and it’s a fantastic commuter.
Phil,
I value your opinion. But I can assure you that life is not black and white.Keeping fit is important, but this does not mean that you have to train all the time and exclusively.
My wife and I enjoy cycling effortlessly through fields and vineyards, then to a restaurant without sweating, and then perhaps riding a single trail through the forest back home. The Ebike is a tool that enables us to cycle together even over longer distances and a strong motor is a fun factor.
I happened to be in the market for a r&m bike, when UA-cam started suggesting your channel. Got everything and more i needed to know from your videos! Now Im happy to say, my bike is underway! Thanks for that, keep up the good work and stay safe.
Awesome! Happy I was able to assist! Can I ask which bike you chose and why?
@@Propelbikes I went for the multicharger vario. I wanted a bike to comfortably commute to work. But i fly drones as a hobby so being able to go out with all my gear was the seller for me.
Super cool! The Multicharger is an awesome bike for sure!
It’s all about the Gates carbon belt drive for me...no noise..no maintenance and no mess....
Tom Whitby I absolutely agree. I’m fed up with washing, brushing, degreasing and re-greasing chains, cassettes and chain rings!
I’m looking forward to testing an Enviolo + belt on a R&M Delite or Superdelite.
I hate chain maintenance so yes it’s all about getting rid of the chain.
@@ruirodtube I started my bike search with "Belt-Driven EMTB" and that's how I found the R&M Superdelite I just ordered. Chris's reviews were really useful in the search and I actually order at the beginning of lockdown as something to look forward to when this crisis is over!!
That’s awesome! I’m sure you’re going to love it! Stay safe!
@@Propelbikes Thanks - I am still in the market for a FOLDING belt drive compact commuter bike like the Gocycle to take on the train. Any recommendations? Carbo bikes are the closest I've seen...but I don't know the brand...
My biggest problem is that I don’t weight the importance of the drivetrain decision high enough to find an ebike that I like that also has the drivetrain that I like.
I want a folding ebike with an extremely low step through frame with a belt drive with internal gearing. That bike doesn’t exist yet as far as I know.
With the Enviolo hub, you can shift under load when you have the motor turned off or in eco, but if you have the motor in turbo, you cannot shift under load and do need to stop pedaling for a hundred milliseconds or so, so that the motor can disengage before you can shift. Pretty easy and fun, but worth noting.
Great feedback Tony! Thanks for sharing
Great video, Good to see an honest review and thoughts of the different systems
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it!
We've had bikes with derailleurs, Enviolo and Rohloff E-14. Each has their merits as you suggest. One plus for the Rohloff E-14 over the Enviolo, is I find it a little easier to disconnect if I have to remove the rear wheel to fix a flat tire. On the Enviolo, you have to disconnect the shift cables. The Rohloff E-14 requires you to unplug a connector on an electronic communication cable. A little easier, but you do need to be careful to keep that cable connector free of dirt or moisture while it is unplugged.
I assume you have the rohloff with electronic shifting. I have read somewhere the connector was not great and one guy cat the cable a little further alone put a more robust waterproof connector in.
Do you notice the efficiency enviolo vs rohloff?
@@EdgeMasterPro Yes, the E-14 is the electronic version of the Rohloff. The electrical connector is a little fiddly, but it works. Just have to be careful to disconnect it before you go yanking off the wheel.
I much prefer the Rohloff to the Enviolo. Both because the Rohloff makes pulling the wheel off the bike easier, but also because the Rohloff has less drag when pedaling. The Enviolo is great for a novice rider though, as it is easy to shift.
There's a funny development with e-bikes in the Netherlands, the amount of e-bikes sales have increased by more then 300% since the beginning of COVID.
And most consumers here buy an internal hub, Nexus being the most popular. But a 7 or 8 speed Shimano hub is just too many gears to go through since our country has practically no hills, the Shimano 5 speed hub you mentioned in the video is now the most popular hub for e-bikes in the Netherlands.
If you aren't a sportive or rough terrain rider but looking for a clean, realiable, low maintenance drive I would always go with an internal gear hub and belt drive. Same for commuters and all year long distance riders. That lost of efficiency is easyly compensate by support of electric motor.
Having Gates CDX belt drive together with punch resistance tires all I've to do is once a year oil bath maintenance on Nexus i8 hub and control air pressure from time to time. Meanwhile the belt has 13000 km and looks to be ready for the next 13000 (8000 mls.)
Great feedback Michael! Thanks for sharing this
In the seventies to change gear you hand to reach for the gear level which was mounted on the frame and feel for each gear. Thumb and trigger is a massive improvement Having a 400% range on the rear cogs is further better as you do away with the front 3 rings.
As someone who isn’t very coordinated I’m glad that this system was replaced with the trigger shifters.
Never mind the 1970s. They linger all throughout the 1980s. Gear level has to be precise or the chain would not be properly aligned with the gears, causing a loss in efficiency and you get all kinds of noise from the friction. Turn the level too quickly and you would drop the chain completely off. I sure hate having to stop somewhere and get your fingers black trying to get the chain back on. Now I would never go back to the derailleur system. I would prefer the internal hub, especially the CVT and love the Gates Carbon belt drive.
With time you're getting used to the downtube shifters, you learn to feel and hear the chain, when it catches the next gear, and there is no damage to the chain. It's a kind of balance with the mechanics of your bike. Obviously more modern tech is much more comfortable and user friendly.
You do the best explaining of bike stuff. Thanks
An excellent overview of available options for gearing thank you.
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it! :)
Great video as usual! I won't be buying another derailleur equiped bike ever again.
Cool video! We just had a similar discussion with friends few days ago but with additional variable: mid drive vs. rear drive. I switched to internal gear mostly because of maintenence. I ride in winter, so mud and salt was damaging derallieur all the time. Now I have two systems: a) Shimano Nexus 8 + chain (Bullitt); b) NuVinci + belt (Butchers). I like the second combination a lot but it is useless when my battery is out of juice :) With chain you can still pedal quite effectively without motor.
Great feedback! Definitely something to consider. Thanks for sharing your personal experience
Pretty sure it's not because of the belt. It's because of the hub. I have heard the nuvinci has a significant drag. Like mushy feeling especially on low gears. I have ridden for years a belt drive with old Sach duomatic hub and it has close to zero added resistance. I also had an ebike with belt and nexus i5 hub and that had significant resistance which turned into horrible resistance in the cold climate.
On my old, non-electric bike i have a Fichtel & Sachs derailleur / internal hub combo with grip shift (I think an equivalent system is avaliable from SRAM). Always liked it.
I wish there were more internal hubs on the market. I hope we see a resurgence in this segment, it’s a critical piece for quality low cost city ebikes.
Great review, nicely done ... thank you. I ride a mountain bike and love it. Having used a derailleur system most of my life (I'm 50+) I'm very used to it and it's second nature to me. My wife on the other hand is used to a no speeds. She did learn to use a derailleur but I just got her a Specialized Turbo Como 5.0 with the automatic Enviolo and she loves it. No need to put much thought into it, just set your cadence and go; it shifts up and down by itself. I enjoy riding her bike as well, it's a whole different feeling. I can force it to shift by my peddle cadence. It takes getting used to but it's kind of fun. BUT ... for my mountain bike, derailleur all the way.
With ebikes, it seems to me that the question of the number of gears is not as relevant any more. Since you have the motor power mode to assist you while riding uphill, why cares with a very low gear ratio for instance?
Thanks for the very clear explanation and comparison between the different drive systems.
In my experience the Enviolo 380 has a bias towards higher speeds for flat or downhill riding and unfortunately it doesn’t offer sufficiently low gears for steep climbs. But when combining the Enviolo with an electric motor you can select more support from the motor to compensate the lack of lower gears. Would you agree?
I think it really all boils down to the gear ratio. The N380 can easily be adapted to have a lower gear available with a large cog in the rear or a smaller one upfront.
The bias you are talking about is all about implementation by the bike's manufacturer. My 20" wheel folding bike (non-electric) from 'Bike Friday' (US manufacturer in Oregon), has a bias towards the lower gear. I purchased this in 2013 with the NuVinci N360 CVT (Continuous Variable Transmission) internal hub with the Gates Carbon belt drive. NuVinci is their original name. Now they changed it to Enviolo. I can climb a crazy hill with that bike. I often ride on a dirt trail climbing all sorts of a steep hill. I love the analog functionality of CVT despite taking a hit on its efficiency (about 10%) compared to a digital/step system internal hub. I'm sure you can take your bike to a bike repair shop to have the cog/crankset gear teeth replace to change the bias toward the lower gear range. Keep in mind that doing this will limit your high gear range where you can't go as fast as you will reach your maximum cadence RPM sooner.
thxs for the derailleur update, next pls do an update on the state of no flat tires..
Great feedback! I will work on it
If you’re living in steep terrain, the Rohloff is a must.
Don’t make the same mistake like me and destroy your expensive Bosch motor by the insufficient gears on a common drivetrain.
Plus, no maintenance. How cool is that?
Really pleased you've started the channel, I currently run a Gazelle with Hub which is great however I recently rode a similar bike with the same motor mated to DERAILLEUR, wow couldn't believe how much more responsive the derailleur was when accelerating. Also I do struggle up the hills with the hub as gears don't offer the cadence required.
Thanks for sharing your experience. You could consider changing your gear ratio if you need a lower gear for climbing.
A big one he doesn't mention is Pinion, the German gearbox system with a wider more even range than Rohloff. Pinion / Gates is my current #1 fitness all purpose all weather choice with a Priority 600. In an ebike that forces a hub drive system with plenty of good options. The point about chains and derailleur maintenance and cost is well worth considering, especially with the big extra stress of an ebike. I'm on my third chain / cassette combo in 7,000 miles of ebike riding and I'm really getting tired of paying for them and dealing with the sloppiness when they get worn. More so after the Gates/Pinion experience. For Rohloff you'll find it much easier to fit into any number of traditional and custom frames. Where I am, close to the old Paramount shop with Gunnar / Waterford you have any number of Rohloff choices. No Pinion as it requires a custom BB frame build.
The Pinion is a great system, but it’s largely unavailable here in the US. I also haven’t found too many quality hub motor setups here in the US which would be required to make the Pinion more viable. Some brands in Europe have paired the Pinion with a Goswiss motor, but they are now no longer available. I think some other viable options would be Xion since you kind of need advanced internal torque sensing inside the motor. There aren’t too many motors with these specs on the market and there are none in the US unfortunately.
@@Propelbikes Here's a great example desiknio.com/pinionclassic/ In the US unplugged there's CoMotion as a big one along with Zerode for off road zerodebikes.com/bikes And of course in NYC Priorty
I mean as an ebike. These bikes look great, but we only deal in ebikes. That’s also the focus of this video and discussion.
@@Propelbikes You sure won't have any problems if you're shopping for them in Germany - other than making up your mind and paying for them pinion.eu/en/e-bikes/
I wish we had all the ebike options available in Germany. I’m working on it though ;)
There is also the pinion gearbox. It is an interesting option if you want a more powerfull rear hub motor and internal gears.
The Bosch performance line speed is somewhat underpowered to maintain the highest speed with headwind or uphill.
I have Derailleur geared and internally geared bikes and do maintenance on both, but overall, I prefer Internally geared for all the reasons you mention. Additionally, Derailleur gear maintenance increases dramatically during winter months as they readily attract dirt, increasing chain and sprocket wear unless cleaned and lubricated after every ride. I also find gear changing operation is more susceptible to temperature changes, requiring fine tuning of cable tension between chilly days (1C - 3C) Vs warmer days (9C - 10C). I plan to buy an electrical bike, and I will go for internally geared hub with belt drive. The other advantage of this configuration is the front "chain" wheel and rear sprocket are always correctly aligned, further reducing wear. This is rarely the case with Derailleur gears due to the nature of how you select gears, and though the gear change mechanism is mechanically simple in operation, it is quite crude by today's standards.
Please cover affordable systems. We’re all out here trying to find a reasonably light, IGH, belt drive with mid-engine. Reasonable power and reasonable battery AH/range/weight. Rohloff and Reise & Muller are stratospherically priced systems. The options are either underpowered motors and limited range motors or they’re too heavy. What is the right belt driven Enviolo and optimal mid-drive motor with decent range battery under 60lbs and under $3000.?
I gotta admit, I've never had a long period where my derailleurs shifting has been seamless, apart from when I first had it. I've spent ages trying to get it right, cleaned, re-cabled, tuned and I always end up being haunted by shifting niggles, I get by but I hate it. When i got on a Moustache in France last year i couldn't beleive how smooth the shifting was. The Rohloff is too expensive for my budget. Heck, you can buy two decent road bikes for the price of one Rohloff hub!!! So the Enviolo is looking like the main contender atm when i do eventually plumb for it
Very well thought comparison!
Thanks!
Great vid and well done for doing this ... lots of complicated choices very well explained - thank you.
Thank you! Much appreciated!
I’m trying to decided between the Tern HSD S+ and the Riese & Muller Tinker HS. My main concern is that the Tern has the enviolo 380 sport hub and the Tinker has a derailleur. I live in Colorado and after reading reviews on the Tern, I’m concerned that the enviolo might struggle with the some of the hills (not off-roading, just commuting on paved roads). Can you give me any advice?
i would love to see a build that incorporates derailleur + hub gear in one bike, instead off vs.
Thanks for a good review Chris. I've been looking into internally geared hubs for a while now and have also been considering the Shimano alfIne 11 which is similar to the Rohlof but is cheaper and offers a 409% gear range. Do you have a view on these or is it simply down to not being a product you stock?
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it! The Alfine is a great hub, but it can’t handle more than 50Nm of torque. This is okay for many users, but many new motors are 60+ Nm and they don’t play nicely with that hub.
@@Propelbikes ah that's what I needed to know. You've really helped me with this. Thanks
You got it!
Shimano also has a 9 speed internal hub called Nexus that I've seen combined with Bosch motors.
I did own a bike with an Alfine 11 and I put about 5,000 miles (8,000 km) on it. I did encounter a couple of issues with the Alfine 11's strength and durability under hard conditions. I had the hub's seals fail at 1,000 miles and leak out the oil. I also had the disk brake rotor flange shear off the hub body in a panic stop.
Also, if you look at the torque limitation of the Alfine 11, you will find you cannot install a chainring and rear cog combination that would provide low gearing - not an issue in flat terrain and less of a concern on an e-bike, but if you live in hilly terrain, possibly a concern.
With our Rohloff E-14, we have over 3,000 miles and it feels much more durable.
When I was a kid, 55 years ago, I had a Raleigh 3 speed "English" Racer. It had a 3 speed "Sturmey Archer" internally geared hub. Great bike for its day. Although it was only 3 speeds I could ride it anywhere and never had to worry about a complex derailleur gearing system. It was a simple, rugged, and reliable gearing system. A Do they still make basic 3 speed internally geared bike wheels? If so are they used on electric bikes? For most everyday riding 3 speeds on an electric should be all that's needed and it would certainly be much less expensive than most other internally geared systems. I would also choose a modern belt drive for reliability and low maintenance. One issue with internal gearing on an electric bike is that that a hub motor can't be an option.
Hi I’m buying an ebike from China that has a Sturmey Archer internal gear hub a gates belt drive and a bfang 750/1000 watt motor, should be here in May, like you say low / no maintenance reliable cheap, ticks all the boxes for me.
I used to hate those 3 speed Sturmey Archer hubs because the linkages always broke, the hub itself though was strong enough for all the abuse we as kids gave our bikes!
Brompton folding bikes uses a 3-speed Sturmey Archer hub on their 3-speed and 6-speed versions ( 3 internal hub + 2 speed derailleur). The hubs are now made in Taiwan, not the UK though. They also have an electric version with their own motor.
The brand new VanMoof S3 and X3 use a 4-speed Sturmey Archer!
@@HartmutSchirmacher71 Thanks, I'll take a look. Do you know if they are electric? Do they have belt or chain drive?
Very helpful reviews, Chris, in both style and content. Much appreciated.
My Questions:
- with the 2021 GSD Cargo motor support topping out at 20mph is there much point in the top end extended gear range of the Rohloff vs Enviolo as those top gears only come into play at speeds that are + 20mph when the 85# bike + cargo etc would be hard work to pedal with no assist unless aided by gravity, is that so?
- As an older person (64)planning on riding into old age my gut tells me the twist control of the Enviolo would be harder to manage? Impressions?
And lastly: why no Cargo speed motors on the GSD? If not on them then what are they putting them on?
Thanks.
Hi I like your review,I'm Jerry when I here a message from electric bike review they seem to complain about the parts in the components of a electric bike that don't belong to them that bad for the bike shop that is trying to sell there product.so if I were you .I would watch and here what they are telling about your electric bike.but I'm glad your cindy doing it yourself thank you.
Great feedback! Thanks for sharing Jerry!
12:28 why do you have a license plate on a bicycle?
This was super helpful!
I commute to work with a road bike about 20 round trip. I average right around 17 mpg. I'd like to shorten my time with an Ebike, but am not sure if pre-made ebikes from big companies will meet my needs. I know class 3 bikes can support up to 28mph and then the motor drops out, but I regularly already go that fast on slight hills. Any ideas what system would be best? I like the idea of a belt drive, but there aren't too many class 3 belt drive bikes out there. I think a big front ring paired with bafang motor could easily manage. I just don't want to spin out on the flats or downhill. Any thoughts?
Thanks Chris for this great tutorial! I have three different uses for biking : internal hub enviolo + carbon gates which I found great for my commuting to work (a little less than 10miles one way), we have a "pino tandem" from Hase bikes with the derailleur XLR which is amazing but hard for my wife to use, especially on such a big bike to ride, takes a lot of attention as you said when stopping. And we will receive soon the Birdy from R&M with derailleur as we both have a public transport use combined with biking here in Belgium. Do you consider electronic shifting a good option either for mountain bike owners as you recommend derailleur/Rohloff or for my personal use of tandem or Birdy (but I have not tried yet and it is already a budget!) ? I did try once at the great "Ronde van Vlaanderen" a road cyclist tour from a friend and it was very light/efficient/handy in that purpose.
Thanks for your detailed comment. Sounds like we have similar taste in bikes. Many people do opt for electronic shifting for mountain biking which has its advantages. It’s not really possible to retrofit the E-14, but it’s easier to retrofit electronic shifting on the derailleur.
What is the lifespan om a enviolo, because I read storys about rohloffs with 230.000km or even more. Just curious
Thanks. Good breakdown on the systems
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it!
Thanks for this great video! Have you experienced any reliability issues with the Enviolo CVT? Is it a robust and durable system, or do you see a lot of warranty claims?
It’s proven to be one of the most reliable drivetrains for us. We have very little claims and it’s become one of the most popular option in the store.
@@Propelbikes Thank you!
Soooo informative - great video - thank you! 🙏🏽 Most manufacturer websites skimp on this kind of info so this is really helpful for filling in the gaps. 😀👍🏽
Very informative review. I recently was in the market for an eBike and wanted one with a belt drive and internal gears. However, the dealer advised me against that because of the difficulty of removing the wheel to repair punctures. I ended up with an excellent eBike with conventionally derailleur gears thereby saving myself a lot of money, around £1,500. However, was he right about the difficulty of removing rear wheels with hub gears?
The effort to remove the wheel varies widely depending on the bike and hub manufacturer. Most we work with make it really easy. The key thing is to not have to tension the belt after removing the wheel, this is a poor way to design a bike from my perspective.
can you pls list the bicycles showed in the video?? thank you
No mention of Nexus / Revoshift which I’ve find really good so far with Gates Carbon belt. And very affordable. I have it with the Yamaha 60Nm syncdrive and I’ve been really impressed. All this on a Giant Dailytour E+1 which a fantastic commuter bike. Not one single written review on the net.
The Nexus is definitely a great hub provided you don’t put too much torque into it. It’s rated for 50Nm so it’s not as popular here. I think it’s a great setup for a city environment though.
Love the video! I am planning of purchasing either the Gazelle Ultimate T10, or the Ultimate C380 with the Enviolo hub for commuting to work. I live in Vancouver, BC, where it often rains, and work at a university called SFU on Burnaby Mountain (an elevation of 1096 feet). Which of the two bikes would you recommend? Thanks.
Bonjour, j'ai acquis un R&M avec Rohloff E14, cela fait la troisième fois que j'ai un problème de connexion électrique, plus important les uns que les autres, à continer, je pense que je vais passer à la commande par câbles. le système parait fragile pour un usage tout chemin.
E-bike goes with a carbon drive, internal gears and disc brakes. Everything else is a fail because you want as maintenance free as it gets. Also, continual variable gears are the future just need to have auto gear down when breaking. Meanwhile the Rohloff internal hub is very nice.
Very useful thanks. Have been eying up an R&M Supercharger 2 and was never sure what the different gear options meant.
Glad you enjoyed it! What are you thinking about with the drivetrain?
I'm looking at a Supercharger2 Vario HS.
Can you reach 28 mph using the Enviolo system with that bike?
It is the price of the internal gear that is the biggest problem for me. I want to put it on my winter e-bike.
You have the most useful video I found on this topic (and other great videos). I tried a new R&M Enviolo 380 HS bike and I found the highest gear too low to get to top speed! According to the R&M website with Enviolo 380 as the highest gear (9.54m) vs Derailleur (8.36m) and Rohloff (9.3m). In your experience is this true? Or does the inefficiency make the Derailleur or Rohloff better. Thanks in advance.
Thank you! Glad you enjoy! You definitely need to pedal a little harder on the Enviolo to get to 28 due to the lower efficiency. I still think it’s worth it though. If you want the easiest time to hit 28 the Derailleur and Rohloff are a little better, but Enviolo is still the most popular. I think the new Gen 4 software also improves this.
Chris, great video, great information. I very much appreciate your down-to-earth, relaxed, informative style. Have you had an opportunity yet or do you have plans to evaluate the Kindernay hub on an e-bike with a Gates carbon drive?
Question, I am planning to buy a Supercharger 2 HS (45km/h version). Is it true that the Enviolo system generally blocks around 35-38km/h? Is it true that the only option is to go with derailleur or Rohlof to be able to reach the 45km/h? I do not have the budget for the Rohlof, really hesitating between the external & the enviolo... any advice? I do 100km per week in average. Many thx for your answer :)
What did you end up with? I can lease a high speed bike through my employee but I'm torn between Enviolo and Rohlof.. Not reaching 45km/h would be a dealbreaker for sure, but if the Enviolo gets there I'm fine with it.
Cheers.
Do you think that I can fit a Rohloff / Nexus with belt in a bike that originally has traditional gear? Like the new Bianchi E-Omnia?
on an electric bike, 3 speeds are all that is needed : low, mid and high gear. the engine will fill the gaps.
7-8 are far too many; the Rohloff serves no purpose for an everyday urban bicycle.
A good old, reliable and maintenance-free Sturmey Archer, and a chainring/pinion carefully selected and you're good to go.
even on a Nexus 7 you will use 1st, 4th and 7th an that's it.
Hi. I have an Iron Horse Tango Tandem that I'd like an internal hub, so as to have a coaster brake. I'd like to have an mid-motor for it also. Is there a good pairing you could suggest? Thanks.
Bill we'd love to recommend a aftermarket system, but there are none I can give our stamp on at the moment. I would recommend checking out the electricbikereview.com forum and see what others have experienced with kits.
Just got a Cannonale Tesoro Manits very confused by the manual shifting, it is true that you should never shift when you are in assist mode and peddling?
What was the reasoning for dismissing the shimano offerings? They are well reviewed and affordable.
They only support 50Nm of torque and the motors they recommend are 65-85Nm.
This covers the features and use but nobody talks about reliability and longevity. Ebikes get ridden more often and further so it would be good to know which systems are bullet proof over the long haul.
In my experience the Bosch motor is the most reliable motor system, this is the main reason why we focus on this motor in our shop. For the hubs, I’ve found the internal hubs generally have great reliability provided they are used within the specifications.
Thanks for a very informative vlog.
Is the Enviolo hub going to be ok on the hills?
Thanks for the video! Wondering if you could use a Sturmey Archer kick back 2 speed hub with mid mount motor? Bafang bbshd is what i am buying. I like the idea of no cable
Hi Chris, this video is very helpful. I spoke to a cargo bike shop near me and they told me the cables with the Enviolo hub tend to freeze in the winter. What’s your experience with this, is there anything that can be done to prevent it?
This can happen, but it’s usually with a big dip in the routing. You can pack the cables and shifter mechanism with grease to prevent this.
Which IGH can handle 1500watts mid drive?
Have you ever used a shimano nexus 8 speed internal gear hub with a mid mounted motor? Do you think it will hold up well with the extra torque a electric motor can supply? Thanks
Roland, the Shimano Nexus 8 speed is an awesome hub. Just don’t use it with a motor with a torque rating over 50Nm and without some sort of shift protection either Bosch with the software torque based shift detection or other systems with a physical cut-off switch. Otherwise it will perform excellent and provide a good low maintenance solution.
It's fine, I have a ebike with a Yamaha engine that produces 80nm of torque and a Nexus 8, and after 4 years and almost 8000km of use it shifts good.
I've got good experiance with the Nexus 8 using a Brose motor and Gates CDX belt in all seasons. Now after 17000 km when just switched into 4th gear sometimes it can't manage the torque. As I don't need the 4th gear often I will wait for next 5000 km maintenance intervall. If the problem proceeds I will replace Nexus with same type. Exchange should be easy when reuse the old hub hull. By its cost a lifetime of 20000 km is just fine with me.
I have a riece muller nevo gt 2022, I find it great,one thing is that when upgrades occur, they are not compatible
With one prior,
For example , my cycle was ordered December 2022, came January 2023, and my kiox computer has upgraded to model 300.not compatable.
This is only one item that upsets me.
Only by purchasing a new bike, can one get the new upgradings
Regards Michael green
If a chain/der. System is 99.%, how would the belt drive internal hubs match up? Do you lose 10% with enviolo? Love the videos!
You do lose about 10% efficiency in comparison. For some this is important, but most feel it’s not that critical considering you have a motor.
Propel Electric Bikes the rohloff is close to der tho?
You lose very little in the Rohloff hub.
@@Propelbikes the 10% translate then in the same proportion in the lifespan of the battery and daily autonomy. Thanks for this video. As usual, very informative and wo emotion
what electric bikes are currently available with the Enviolo hub
I would recommend looking at Riese & Müller as they have many bikes with the Enviolo hub. You can see them on our website at propelbikes.com
Priority has one with a Gates belt
Thanks for the video. Does anyone know why the Rohloff IGH is not compatible with the Bosch/CIBO SmartphoneHub?
External gears exposure to dirt water is a constant problem, along with wear on everything. Internal are not exposed to the elements except for the chain. With the belt you're even better off! It's a no brainer!
a pity you're not talking about gears other than enviolo and rolhof. I drive a Pinion gearbox with belt drive. The best choice when driving long distance on a daily bases.
Pinion doesn't work with mid drive.
Thanks Chris your my man,keep smiling .😀👋👍🏿👊
Thanks Jerry! I’m doing my best! I hope you do the same :)
Thank you for the awesome, very informative video. Do u know if Rohloff is working on a internally geared hub combined with a rear hub motor? I am interested in a all wheel drive, dual battery, commuter bike to replace a car. I would like to get to commute speed of 50mph, in order to shorten my commute times, as the distances travel are quite far and I need the speed to keep up with ICE vehicle traffic.
what you're looking for I think the Pinion Gearbox is the best, (but expensive) since it has the largest gear range available at more than 600%, but you'll still need to have a cog ratio on the drivetrain if you want to be able to pedal effectively at 50mph.
Greetings from Finland! I did buy yesterday Atala B-Tour ebike which have internal gears
Thanks for the video, very informative! Quick question regarding the N380 vs Rohloff: do you know what the final gear ratio on each of these are? Which one would have the higher theoretical top speed, given the same amount of pedalling?
The Rohloff has the widest gear range. Even wider than some derailleur system. You will get a higher top speed on the Rohloff for the same amount of pedaling simply because the gear range of the Rohloff is so much wider than the N380. I'm currently using the NuVinci N360 on my Bike Friday Silk folding bike purchased in 2013. You can read some of my replies (see anything above from here). You should at least try riding a bike equipped with a CVT. It is unbelievably smooth with virtually no clicks, no vibration, no sound at all, and it is instantaneous. Most people who tried riding my bike described as surreal. That is the only cool thing about CVT. Too bad the don't make it with something even wider than the 380%. If you want speed and climb steep hills, go with the Rohloff. It is also lighter and about 10% more energy-efficient compared to the NuVinci. The penalty on the Rohloff: super expensive and you will still get all that clicks noise and can feel the tiny vibration from the gear change. I test rode San Diego's FLX Blade 2.0 electric mountain bike equipped with the Rohloff and Gates Carbon Belt drive just about 3 weeks ago. The smoothness of the CVT is no comparison.
The 10% efficiency penalty is pretty massive. That’s 10% capacity gone from your battery regardless of its health. If your pedals with zero assist it’s like a 10% weight penalties on inclines. I guess city commuting worth the cash. Good to remember some people have put 300,000km on Rohloff hubs you can always reuse the hub on a new bike be it e bike or not in the future. I really would like to rest ride both. Here in Australia not so lucky with choice and test ride I don’t mean a 3 minute ride around the block.
Just saying with my 80s non index top shifters I can shift top to bottom gear on a 5/6/7 speed instantly so long as teeth are profiled... And to to the middle quite easily, it's just moving one at a time that's difficult compared to modern shifters but for urban use not as important I find.
Hi Chris! thanks for the informations. I want to ask something. Which electric motor and chain system do we need on a delivery bike in a cities such as Amsterdam or UK and for example for uber eats or for deliveroo? And which one is more efficient and low cost too for delivery bikes?
I think there are some different bikes available in Amsterdam or the UK. I would consider getting a Bosch motor due to its reliability. It would be nice to have a belt and an internal hub, but they will add to the cost. If I was doing that job I would consider spending a bit more upfront though to improve reliability and service intervals.
Great review. Thanks for making great video for us. I have seen a lot of videos about rohloff speedhub and nuvinci mechanical hub.
But I cannot find a really great video for enviolo automatiq. Can you make a good video for enviolo automatiq?
internal gears and belt drive for me
Great way to go!
I broke a Nexus 3 IGH with a Luna BBS02. after about 500 miles it just gave up.
Yeah, those hubs aren’t made for that much torque.
Damn, I just got a Nexus 3 to pair with my BBSHD thinking it was going to be okay. I'm not hotrodding anything, but seems like I may have issues coming my way.
I’ve owned two bikes fitted with the Rolhoff 14 speed hub love the convenience of them over derailleur system but I think derailleur is more efficient in my experience
Rohloff is definitely in a class of its own.
If it is ebike and you are going to do a lot of mileage belt drive is no-brainer. Less maintenance is a blessing but for those who ride from time to time it would mean some extra money without significant benefits.
I love my Rohloff; I think about refitting my other bikes with Rohloff.
What's the cost of Enviolo cvt and to Roller hub
The Enviolo hub is about $300 and the Rohloff is about $1500 not including the electronic shifting.
@@Propelbikes I always thought Enviolo CVT to be expensive as its most advanced n seamless. Iam prototyping my mid geared semi recumbent in India..
Derailleur is very efficient and light, rohloff has a very wide range and belt, enviolo has a belt and not enough shifting range + shifting is annoying. Chain or rohloff is the way to go.
This video should be updated for Pinion. Look at the new Homage 5/ Delite 5 with new MGU.
Great...thanks
I've owned a Bosch powered speed pedelec with a Nuvinci 360 and Gates Carbon Drive but currently own an ebike with a hub motor and conventional derailleur gears. Other than the Gates Carbon drive, which I became a fan of I do prefer the latter arrangement on my present bike. The Nuvinci 360 of my first e-bike began to seep oil not long after its purchase, this was addressed but a while later the issue re-emerged. In respect to a speed pedelec the Nuvinci 360 didn't quite have the ratio to match its higher speed. I do appreciate though its ratio has since increased to 380 percent, but I'm willing to bet that this would not make much of a difference. Ideally I'd love to have or try a 14 speed Rohloff mated to a Carbon drive, but that set up is expensive and only certain manufacturers offer such a thing, particularly over varying types of e-bikes, so well done Reise and Muller here! I'm happy with my current set up, the hub motor is quieter and more powerful than any Bosch offering, but admittedly I haven't tried their Gen 4 motors, it also doesn't resist free-pedalling like my first e-bike did to some extent. The conventional deraileur system is also set up with enough range to keep up with my bike's higher speed too, but most importantly it's easy to address should any problem occur and keeps the bike in a sensible price bracket in the first instance.
So unless I could reasonably afford the top stuff I'd now always opt for something familiar every time.
Good feedback. It’s interesting that you had the leaking issue. This is very very rare with the new 380 version. I can understand the concern about efficiency though. Rohloff is an amazing setup and I highly recommend trying the new Gen 4 motor. I think you will appreciate the improvements.
@@Propelbikes Thanks for the reply. When I had the leaking issue I did look into the matter and realised I was not alone in having experienced it, but I'm glad to hear that this has pretty much been ironed out with the new 380 version. As a comparison I would like to try a 4th Gen motor in respect to my first e-bike, especially if it was mated to 14 speed Rohloff and Gates Drive! It would not be fair performance-wise to compare it my current ride which is far quicker than an s-pedelec and I do realise I'm flying under the radar with this, but I was with the s-pedelec and anyway I'd still get 'roadies' take me on that! My current ride is this - www.back2green.ch/produkt/blue-xtr-speciale-3-1-2/
Anyone who ever owned a e-bike with center motor, should realize that a belt drive is superiour to chain in most regards. If you drive it in any amount of milage, know how many chains and sprockets you go trough. Rohloff gear is the best internal gear made....so far...only con, is the price. I sell ebikes.
The Rohloff is awesome! But I’m also a really big fan of Enviolo for its ease of use.
Propel Electric Bikes i like it too, but the handle is not suitable for ppl with weak hands, some elderly find it difficult to change. But funktionality of the gear itsself is good
Propel Electric Bikes i like it too, but the handle is not suitable for ppl with weak hands, some elderly find it difficult to change. But funktionality of the gear itsself is good
Clear as mud.
Back in the day, a 10 speed. Most all bikes are factory cassette in rear. Today
\\\New Subscriber/// What an excellent video; Great stuff . I'm very new to the E-bike market, however I am trying to get as much information as possible to crunch the numbers in order to pick my new/first ebike to commute to work "sometimes" and for leisurely rides from time to time. I want POWER because I'm old and very large so I need comfort torque reliability and functionality in the bike. I am aware that this will not be a cheap package, but I would really appreciate your help in giving me options that I may not be aware of from my research.
At present, the bikes on my short list are; Specialised Vado 4.0, and 5.0 2022, Cube Kathmandu Hybrid Pro 625 2022, Cannondale Tesoro Neo X 3, Haibike Trekking 10 i625 2021, Raleigh Centros CB 2022 Hub, Ridgeback Advance 3 2022,.
Now I know it's practically impossible for you to choose for me, however can you whittle this list down and/or add a bike which is not on this list which I should be considering...
Thank you very much for your help.
Martin.
Sorry, but I think you are referencing “percent” gear range, vice “degree”.
HEY CHRIS, THE ENVIOLO PAIRED WITH GATES BELT DRIVE IA AN EASY NO-BRAINER. HOWEVER, WIFE PAIRING WELL, THAT'S A LITTLE MORE COMPLICATED. LOL
I agree with this statement from experience
Hi I have a kalkhoff Sahel 8speed internal hub failed 3000 miles, would not recommend kalkhoff very bad customer service.They are so big a company they don’t care about,after sales,just new, after that your on your own.Darby cycles own most bike manufacturers.
Sorry to hear you had such trouble. Was your dealer able to assist you? They should be able to get some help from Shimano on that issue. That would be the standard protocol. There is also required service overtime on that hub.
Propel Electric Bikes Thankyou for your reply,Yes I did eventually get help from shimano,But I also had one new electric motor fitted under warranty,Then I had problems with that,just after the gears were fixed ,which they said was out of warranty,so I payed 650£ and had to wait January to April.So with the gears and motor I lost all faith in kalkhoff,sorry but that’s it.many thank malcolm
single speed front is a cheat on the money
Not sure if I understand this?