unironically though the added difficulty for aerial pressure is kind of necessary. Otherwise space animals would be even more braindead than they already are
You have to react to different timings based on shield vs hit vs whiff and shield tilt and your own movement, it is significantly deeper than people give it credit for
Dude, you should really check out Rivals of Aether. One of the biggest things I’ve seen against L-cancelling being removed is how it could lead to the skill gap being so low that lower level play wouldn’t have to care at all about the safety of their aerials. This is seen in ultimate, where there’s a ton of lower level players that get mad over players seemingly mashing aerials that otherwise wouldn’t be safe in previous games, unless L-cancelled. Rivals of Aether, however, finds a really good medium between these two mechanics. Rivals of Aether does its version of L-cancelling automatically called hit cancelling, which automatically makes it better than the physically draining system of Melee’s L-cancelling, but it only activated when you actually land an aerial. If you whiff an aerial, it has extra landing frames called whiff lag. This allows for both a more insane combo game provided by L-cancelling, while keeping the precise spacing game that Ultimate players feel are lacking, all the while not being a physical boundary with play. I was gonna comment anyways to help the algorithm, but I just wanted to spread more about Rivals of Aether.
I don't really get the argument about auto-L-cancel leading to "the skill gap being so low that lower level play wouldn’t have to care at all about the safety of their aerials." Is the argument that low level players should have more recovery on their aerials so that other low level players can whiff punish them? (by that logic, the RoA system whould make whiff punihsing too easy in high level play) Or are they just saying that L-cancels make aerials too safe in general? This is just blatantly untrue since the people who can L-cancel consistently still care about the safety of aerials. I don't think it makes sense to compare it to Ultimate either. It's not a lack of L-cancel which makes aerials in Ultimate safe, it's just the frame data. Whoever told you that L-cancels are nessecary to make aerials unsafe might have no idea what they're talking about.
Here's my take on this "skill gap" problem. All players have some indeterminate amount, let's say X, time to spend learning the game. L-canceling takes Y amount of time(also varies player to player) out of that pie to learn, therefore reducing the amount of time players can spend on other skills. If it doesn't exist, all it does is make it so that players who would have invested time into learning it, learn other arguably more important or more interesting skills instead. Higher level players are still gonna be way ahead of low level players, only they'll be better than them at different skills, instead of an arbitrary execution check.
The only cases where L-Cancelling actually has any significant influence is against Ice Climbers who intentionally mess with your timing in order to get a punish out of the longer lag. But yeah it's just a generally unneeded input with zero drawbacks unless you fully press L or R for some reason and risk locking yourself out of teching
It's not one-dimensional, it checks awareness and there are scenarios where you can miss the L-cancel depending on what your opponent does or doesn't do. You can try covering for those with multiple shield presses, like an OS. There's even subtle stuff like not using analog L-cancel to not get locked out of tech, so there's definitely a lot more meat on the bones than you give it credit
An idea I had for Granblue meter would be that if you try to use a special move while it's on cooldown, you'll still perform it and reset the counter, but you'll also consume a bit of meter. Normal specials will drain, let's say, 20% meter and EX moves will drain 30-40. And these could be adjusted depending on the character. This actually helps newer players who might struggle with using their specials and remembering their cooldowns correctly, whilst giving experienced players new comvo possibilities at risk of lower damage and no access to a super.
It's not even like it wouldn't work with the game, there are plenty of characters in Granblue Fantasy that have mechanics that use their "meter" (charge bar in the gacha).
I love how you used a match that you won as an example for the crappy mechanic. It goes to show that even if you win you still think it's unfair, and it doesn't make you sound like someone who's salty about it
In Rivals of Aether, they replaced L cancelling with hitfalling, which is the ability to instantly fastfall when an aerial connects with an opponent regardless of how high you are in your jump.
hitfalling is pretty one dimensional. you either use it for better combos or if the combo doesn't call for it then you don't use it. It's fun and a good skill check that makes the game faster paced, and I think the difficulty is reasonable, but it does nothing for the neutral game and uses no resources, except maybe height, but there would be almost no reason to hitfall offstage. Also no shields in Rivals so you cant choose if you want to cross up with no hitfall or hitfall and make a potentially unsafe move safe.
@@williamtownsend8679 Ori hitfall dair into bash offstage can kill some characters as early as 0, as for the rest of your response it's fair and I agree with some of it.
Parry also does have a down side. If your opponent thinks you're going to parry, they can just not attack, and either wait a moment first or go for a throw. Then you can counter this by empty jumping. Thus, there's a lot of depth there. L-Cancelling on the other hand is solely a skill-check with no other usefulness.
I like how he mentioned L-cancelling but not brawl's tripping. props to edd for not going for the lowest hanging fruit, but instead making some damn good content
I really challenge anyone to find Jimbulus in this one, I hid him reeeeeaaaaaallll good... P.S. As this is a video with a couple hot takes to say the least, Im down for any civil discussion and am likely to reply to your comments and questions as long as you word them constructively!
During the Skullgirls open beta, a lot of one dimensional execution checks were squashed purposefully. Painwheel used to have better flight frame data out of specials, leading to nail fly cancels becoming the default way to fly. Flight from normals was adjusted to compensate and remove the need for it, while still nerfing one of the only disagreeable things it enabled. Rebalancing a game to reduce the need for one dimensional complex execution checks is a good thing.
So actually L-canceling does matter in a few niche situations, since the timing for L-cancels changes slightly depending on if you hit, miss, or hit a shield. This means that you sometimes have to read the situation correctly to time it correctly. 9/10 though it's an unnecessary skill check though, and I personally think Melee would be better without it. (As a non-Melee player.)
I was going to comment with pretty much this. At face value, it does look like a mechanic which only exists to execution test, but there actually is some nuance to the point where you have to make a read to actually hit your L-cancel.
It gives you less end lag on your moves while landing its useful for moves that have exuberant amount of end lag on landing like link down air. But besides that it's not needed at all for higher level play unless your playing a spacie an crave getting those down air shine loops
@@dylanmckay984 The problem with the mechanic isn't that you always L cancel at the same time, the problem is that you L cancel every aerial, every time. The timing changing in different situations doesn't make it any less one dimensional.
This doesn’t change it from being one dimensional, there’s never a reason to not go for an L cancel, in these situations even if you mess up due to the timing the only risk you face is the exact same risk you would’ve faced if you didn’t attempt an L cancel at all. The allegory to sf3s party is a perfect analogy, imagine if instead of pressing forward to parry you just had to press a party button once and if you mistimed it you would just get a regular block but if you timed it right you would get a parry. There is no reason for you NOT to attempt a party and therefore is meaningless. Sure your opponent can mix up their timing and you might mess up your parry but you will suffer no more consequence than if you never tried at all. Its a zero sum game where l canceling will always result in an advantage regardless if you hit it or not and not l canceling will always result in disadvantage
L-Canceling is the natural evolution of Pandora Mode. Sacrifice your hands for more frame advantage. In all seriousness, I like Danger Time in theory. It's really really hype and hype is important in fighting games. While it seems like Strive won't have DT, I think it would be cool if it could be triggered somehow. Maybe if you clash with full risk gauge, you can do a Roman Cancel and start DT. High risk, high reward mode to be in, but it removes the risk gauge from the one who started it. I didn't play enough GG REV2 to know if this is stupid, but I love the heart attack that comes with a DT activation.
random things are never good for competetive (with few exceptions of characters which are really random [faust], but they are so random, that random is the norm), if you want a semi random Danger mechanic, then all you need to do is use an equation that goes like this: 1. less health = 1,1x chance of danger for every 10% health left 2. every clash = 1,5x chance of danger 3. base danger chance = 1% this way you can at least gauge when Danger will happen and you can even try to force it/play around it.
@@leonardo9259 nah as in i want the concrete opinions so i can directly talk against them rather than what the video says because i feel i could be reading into someone elses argument there
Hey there, some minor things about L canceling from a Melee maniac: 1. Since L-cancel has a 7 frame window and some moves have more than 7 frames of hitstop, there are situations where you have to choose which timing window you're going for. Would you rather have faster recovery on hit/block or faster recovery on whiff? 2. The shield button is also used for teching and has a 40 frame cooldown period after the tech window. This means that if you get hit by something that knocks you down when you were about to land you will be unable to tech the knockdown. 3. One alternative to L-canceling is auto-cancels, which don't require you to block but has other drawbacks, so it does make a minor difference on the risk/reward for L-cancel vs auto-cancel. 4. I don't think L-canceling is a major contributor towards hand injury since it is generally about the right hand where the thumb has to move very quickly from the Y button to the B button or C stick (unless you're using claw grip). 5. I'm not sure that having faster landing recovery would make the game more enjoyable to casual players. It may in fact do the opposite. I'm not saying L canceling is a good mechanic, I think it sucks that it bothers some people, but it's technically incorrect to say that it's always better to go for the L-cancel and I'm too pedantic not to write a comment about it.
Honestly I really like danger time, it's a batshit insane mechanic that is always hype to get even though it can easily lead to a match getting completely changed. It is a bad mechanic if you see the game as an entirely competitive game that is all about who's more skilled, but god damn its so fun, the interactions during danger time are always so cool and a breath of fresh air
just came of the recipe book video, just want to say its amazing how far your content has come in such a short period of time! The increase in audio quality hit like a well cushioned truck. Thank you for creating a top tier UA-cam channel to nag my friends to watch and to binge during lockdown!
Removing L cancelling does a few things I think you're overlooking: 1. Disproportionately buffs fox and falco, since they are the characters that typically arial the most in their pressure. 2. Removes mind games around shield tilting, and some ice climbers double shield mix-ups 3. Removes a reason people miss techs. Full press L cancelling puts you into tech lockout, and leaves you vulnerable to certain follow-ups. Ultimately, you remove some of the decision-making at top level, and buff two of the strongest characters. I don't think that is worth lowering the skill floor at the end of the day.
They could then: 1. Buff the other characters so they have more aerial ability or nerf Fox and Falco (preferably the former). 2. and 3. Add lag for missed L-cancels (more than normal landing) I think L-Canceling has potential to be a good mechanic, but the way Melee does it leaves much to be desired.
Love the video but two quick notes on LCanceling. 1. It is not the sole reason for hand injury rather the game has high apm regardless. I seriously messed up my right hand playing melee, yet I personally LCancel with my left. 2. The enemy can mixup the required timing needed to LCancel by flashing light shield or spot dodging which adds to mind games of when and how to LCancel. You can still hate LCanceling, but to say it is nothing by a harmful skill check is not completely accurate.
I can't think of a worse way to create a skill gap than requiring an extra button to perform the same moves. It kind of implies the game isn't deep enough for the "good" players to overcome bad players having access to the same options. Fixing a problem that shouldn't exist, basically.
I feel like the Skullgirls Mobile “UNBLOCKABLE” super mechanic is ridiculous. I remember once I had landed a combo with 56% HP remaining as Filia and my opponent was playing Annie with 8% HP. He wakes up on “Photobop”, an unblockable super that deals 25% damage & sets up for combos, proceeded to land a basic string, and won the game. One way this could be fixed is by just not having unblockables exist in the first place. Another way is make them all leave opponents in non-damageable positions.
Jesus me 10 months ago was fat AND knew nothing about l canceling. It isn't teching. It's hitting a button for 1 or 2 frames each time you do an aerial.
A common argument for L-cancelling I hear is that the defender can tilt their shield up or down to offset the offenders L-cancel timing and get better frame advantage. In this way, L-cancelling is more like a 1.5 dimensional mechanic, and even then, shield tilting is the mechanic doing the interesting part of the interaction.
The nail in the heart of that argument is "Remove L-cancelling and then make it so you have increased landing lag if you hit a shield on the way to the ground."
something that I think is often left out of l-cancel discussion is how there are ways that the person being attacked can change the l-cancel timing for the opponents aerials with the variable amounts of hit stop different ways of interacting with the aerial provide. For example l-cancels need slightly different timings depending on if the move whiffs, is powershielded, is shielded normally, or connects. by mixing up these you can make the l-cancel harder for your opponent and possibly get a punish if they miss one, you see this used especially by icies players who can use their two different shields to make significant changes in when the l-cancel window is. L-canceling also provides the same kind of decision making that more difficult combos do in other fighters, like in sfiv someone might do a less damaging combo because they don't want to risk missing a 1f link, someone might to choose to approach with an aerial that is easier to l-cancel or with something that requires no l-cancel to avoid missing a cancel and being unsafe on shield. Anyway, loved the video man. Sorry for leaving such a long comment but I hadn't seen anyone else bring up this point in the comments yet.
as someone who hated L cancelling and played smash 4 for years (yikes) before picking up melee because L cancelling scary, this is a good comment and L cancelling is a good and deep mechanic also if you're into melee enough to be getting injured from hitting the L button too much its not that hard to remove the spring or whatever. with the amount of box controllers and general remapping on the horizon as well, the arguments against L cancelling get worse and worse imo
@@sixthchildren Keyboard melee is also a great solution if you don't have the hand dexterity to safely use a gcc. In fact I would recommend it over gcc to most people starting out since gccs are often expensive and inconsistent, while most people already have a decent keyboard. Since currently all tourneys are being held online over slippi it's completely legal and skill on it carries over to a frame1 for eventual in-person tourneys.
Great comment dude, someone else mentioned the tech input lock out in addition to this but we can't have enough Meleeheads here especially ones who are willing to recommend alternative controllers.
Skybound Gauge: Tie its functions to EX special moves that cost 25% meter and open up new ways to use it. You can use an EX special move while in cooldown for an added 25% meter. Carry over 50% of the meter you had from the previous round to the next round. Danger Time: Get rid of it. Make Mortal Counters tied to hits where RISC is over 50%, without the extra 20% damage bonus. L-cancelling: Don't speed up the endlag if your attack is blocked or hits an intangible/invulnerable opponent.
I’ll preface this by saying I’m not a big fan of GBFV and I agree that the super meter is boring for how simple it is. All that having been said, I believe it was intentional that it’s so simple. From the super meter to the one button special moves to the relatively simple design of (most of) the roster, the game is designed to be easy for beginners. There’s another game that’s even more beginner friendly (Fantasy Strike) that has the meter fill automatically over the course of a round (and carries over between them) with two uses. Ground super and air super. While I wouldn’t want most games to have their super meter be like GBFV, I think it’s fine in the context of the game.
Also relates to how granblue meter works. You gain gauge from other allied supers and attacking on your turn. I'd say they should give auto combos higher meter gain, give everyone 200% meter cap, so they can cash out like crazy and have more super offers.
I haven’t played guilty gear myself, but the danger mechanic seems very interesting. It turns something that would have reset neutral into an intense scramble for a hit.
Strive is prolly gonna be my first guilty gear game, and I was thinking I'd probably main giovanna, but that time stop looks fUCKIN SPICY. Love time manipulation. Also there's something so funny about hitting your opponent with these huge, dramatic special moves when they're frozen.
@@sleepinbelle9627 Its very cool. Strive has made me very excited for characters that I would never really consider in any other GG game, like Milia (she got a new starter guide!!) and Zato especially!
L cancelling is great. Hand problems are not an argument against it as a mechanic, only an argument for placing it on a different button or designing more ergonomic controllers. There are loads of arbitrary execution checks in games. Theres no reason to take those out, it's what separates video games from chess. Just like tight link windows for combos in conventional fighters. You have to time it properly depending on if you hit, whiff, or hit shield. Yes, it takes practice, and will be a barrier for entry for new players. That's not a bad thing. It's one of the things that makes games satisfying to learn as you literally have tangibly better frame data as you improve. The feeling of learning how to do it consistently over time is great and you just take that feeling away when you strip away these "pointless" skill checks.
@@sbevenine2055 just like kbd or requiring electrics to be a just frame input in tekken, or difficult links in street fighter. Should we not have any execution requirements in games since they apparently add no depth? Could just play a card game instead no?
@@tongpoo8985 the thing about the EWGF is that it's an extremely good move that needs a execution or else it's broken, removing L cancelling and making every move have less lag wouldn't change the game at all
@@sbevenine2055 you lock damaging combos and tight punishes behind Lcancelling too just like ewgf, not sure what your point is. You could remove combos from fighting games and just do the max damage and knockdown situation youd get off any starter hit instantly. It's a video game, it's supposed to be fun, and execution is fun. If all you want is depth, you could just go play a card game.
@@sbevenine2055 at the top level people hit their ewgf almost everytime, just like pros in melee l cancel almost everytime. Ewgf basically is arbitrary as l cancelling, but they keep it because its impressive, feels good, and takes a lot of skill to do consistently. Theres no reason to regular wind god fist as it's worse than ewgf in every way so it doesnt add any "depth" to the game either.
L cancelling is kind of a risk at times for the approacher cause you gotta predict if youre going to not delay the L cancel on whiff or delay it depending on the hitlag/shield stun plus height which can include shield tilting which adds a lot of variables On the surface it def seems pointless but theres more factors than there seems, the only time Id def be pro auto L cancel is Project+ cause that game buffers through the other variables making it actually pointless there To throw it out there Im an advocate for Pro Auto L cancel Project+ but there is an arguement for it in Melee at least And on another note while L cancel does contribute to bad hand health its honestly not as bad as the rest of the shit you have to do to move around optimally especially with space animals.
I agree what the guy says about L canceling and that it's one dimensional, I'm also pro L cancel removal since I like it when disabled people can play games, so you can guess I am an advocate for accessibility as well but... I think hand gymnastics and the pains and problems that come with it, including but not limited to rsi should be accepted as a risk you take when participating. It is technically a physical sport. And like any physical sport, there are inevitably going to be dangers to the participants and their physical health. Basketball, Football, Soccer, literal physical violence sports like Boxing, etc.. But that might just be me. A fighting game where little to no physical skill is required isn't a fighting game. Its a turn based strategy game. I play rhythm games, and that genre is purely about testing physical capabilities such as reaction time, reflexes, hand eye coordination, and most prominently dexterity. That might play into my confused position on the matter.
First I would like to compliment you for the really nice video, the point you bring up it's really interesting. That said, I shall proceed to rant about L cancel not being a one dimentional mechanic at all. In a vacuum it actually is, but the opponent can interact in multiple ways with your attempt at L canceling, he can for example tilt his shield to mess up your timing or, if he reads your move, can Smack you out of the move and try to force a tech situation that will be harder because you will probably miss tech because of your L cancel input. Those are just 2 that came on top in my mind, but there sure are many more that more experienced players than me could point out. Fact is, even at top level of play L canceling is not always a given and top player miss their's sometimes. Removing L cancel is a good idea for hand issues you pointed out and also it's a somewhat awkward input for beginners, that said you cannot just simply "auto L cancel" everything, in some games work, in some doesn't, but truth is, doing that removes depth. For example, in smash 4 every aerial is super limited in uses because of the high lag they have, while vice versa in ultimate they still are pretty one-dimensional but they also make wiff punishing almost impossible, expecially on reaction. So far only rivals of eather and Rushdown Revolt have managed to pull out something actually good by removing L cancel. The first has a mechanic that reduces lags of moves that connect with the opponent and to me it's a really good way to solve a problem, it doesn't add much depth but makes the games really good in many ways. Rushdown Revolt has an air dash mechanic, and while unique and interesting it doesn't look to solve the hand pain problem while also making the game somewhat repetitive. There is still ton of space for experimentation in this department, but simply removing L cancel it's the wrong way to go imo. But again, I find really good that you talked about this in this video, as a fg fan and a platform fighters fan I really like seeing the two world connect. Thank for coming to my Ted talk
Eddventure, as an Axl Low main, do you think Axl Low has become high tier (at last), because he stole Dio's the "WoRLdo", or is he high tier regularless? Something, something, one-dimensional
I think our time of prosperity is coming, Ill say that at the very least. I ALWAYS wanted axl to have his reality bending powers in his moveset so I am so Hyped for this change, and I think that allowing him to get a full combo off of a counterpoke with his newly redifined zoner toolkit is going to be VERY STRONG. Imagine trying to get in on a zoner, you get poked out, and youre back at step one. Against Axl now, you get poked, eat 50% and are knocked down in the corner, then back at step one. Short answer: Yes.
@@eddventure6214 Thank you, the SystemArk Gods, now we can swaht those Leo players out of the sky! Thank you, Eddventure for the reply, Axl Low players are few are and far between.
Regarding L-canceling, as others have said, it's not purely a mechanics check: you have to be aware of whether it hits, whiffs, or gets shielding to adjust your timing. So I don't know if I would consider it 1 dimension. Maybe 1.5? I would certainly like to see some some experimentation, maybe high level exhibitions with auto L-canceling turned on, and I'm glad that most of the Melee inspired games on PC seem to be foregoing it. Happy to see the shout out for P+!
So I've played melee for a really fucking long time, was PR'ed for a bit, and I still think l-canceling is an arbitrary tech skill check that just creates a barrier to new players without providing any interesting choice. The answer to "should I L cancel" is always yes. And yeah man, hand pain is real.
heck, when even the basic decision to shield has at least some decisions behind it (it isn't a perfect defense, and gives up frame advantage when you do it wrong) and its rote but not really readable. for an example of something rote but readable, most pressure strings work.
L cancelling is relevant for shield mix-ups. A great example is Falcon's knee, which has different L cancel timings on whiff than on hit. If your opponent spot dodges knee you have to L cancel early which means you have to be paying attention for a hit confirm. I agree that melee would be much better without L cancelling but it is relevant at high level play.
Just came across this video, and I want to point out something regarding GBVS's Skybound Art gauge. The reason it's so 1-dimensional is actually a drawback to the meter being too faithful to how the charge bar works in the original game itself. Majority of the time it is only used for "Ougi" which is basically the equivalent to supers here, however there are SOME exceptions. Unfortunately, those exceptions are character specific and nothing system-wide, like Ferry's Hinrichten super, which is based on her skill that does "guaranteed triple attack" (hence why you can chain any normals into each other up to 3 times) which uses up 100% of the bar for everyone. Stuff like that is converted basically into supers as well into this game. However, once again, this is CHARACTER-SPECIFIC, which is why only Ferry has it. Now, one suggestion you made which I agree they can implement without breaking the game's faithfulness to the original game is being able to carry over the meter into the next round. This also happens in "multi-battle" quests, where the meter carries over to the next battle in the browser game. This can be applied here too so it baffles me as to why they didn't do it here between rounds (they even call them Battles too!) I think this is strictly because it's ArcSys, as they don't believe in meter carry-over AT ALL for some reason (P4A/P4U, Guilty Gear, BlazBlue, etc). It's really dumb and I think is the main reason why this isn't a thing in GBVS either. I think the meter carry-over should be a thing for sure. So yeah, I don't think they'll change anything else due to how much they want to be faithful to the original browser game. Besides the meter carry-over, don't expect much else. At MOST, expect newer characters/DLC coming in with skills that could possibly use up meter too (maybe like their EX versions?).
THANK YOU, I've always thought L-cancelling was an unnecessary, 1-dimensional mechanic...no one agreed with me when I tried to say it, Melee fans will NOT let you criticize the game at all holy crap And thanks for the Danger Time explanation too, I've had it happen but could never figure out why it was happening or what it meant.
L-canceling was intentional, but it wasn't meant to be used as much as it is now. It was in 64 in the form of z-canceling, where it canceled ALL of your lag, and then that was transfered over to melee where it only cancels half. It was originally put in the game so you could get to your shield faster after landing with an aerial, but the leniency of the system allowed it to be used for better frame data alone.
you forgot to bring up the argument that while it IS just a skill check, it has a little bit more to it - colliding with something (your opponent/a shield/an attack/a projectile), which changes the cancel timing window completely and might mess up your cancel. it still mostly hurts only low level players, but it's still the biggest argument for not removing L-canceling so it should've been mentioned (edit: also falling timings combined with the selection between normal falling, fast falling and double jumping. I still accept your argument that it's one dimensional but those are crucial points in the discussion, this is not just a simple "movement speed go brrr") (another pretty important edit: YOU MUST NOT L CANCEL WHILE EDGE CANCELING AERIAL ATTACKS, it'll make you air dodge into nothing most of the time, so it adds another layer to the mechanic - if you are going for the edge cancel, you should not L cancel, but if the edge cancel fails you'll have the move's full ending lag) (LAST EDIT: I still do agree that at least 90% of L-cancel executions are automatic and one dimensional, just saying that those things should be addressed in the video) also this mech alone does not make people's hands hurt, I'd argue that its removal won't lead to better controller conditions in a significant way if anything the way it hurts melee the most is having new players - instead of focusing on how the fighting engine works and your char's best options, you are somewhat distracted by this skill check which might lead newcomers to quit I think a more knowledgeable POV would make your argument against L canceling stronger my dumb text wall aside, great video!
In terms of some of the arguments about canceling, there are some arguments that can be fleshed out comparing them to other genres. From what I can tell, melee apm is usually in the ballpark of 250-450 based on ‘how fast is armada/westballz’ which is on the high end comparable to sc apm which can get upwards of 550. In terms of hand issues, these are mostly minimized in Starcraft since the keyboard/mouse can be more easy on the hands especially using altered key binds while a controller doesn’t offer the same ease, but alternate sticks like the hit box are fine for this. And in terms of the mechanic being always useful and something that is just a raw input check, this could be viewed in a similar way to how in sc1 workers don’t auto mine when created and required manual input to start or the smaller max amount of units you can control compared to sc2. Even though these are things that are ‘always optimal to be done in the same way every time’ their existence enabled players to differentiate themselves in what they spend mental energy focusing on be it optimizing micro or getting a strong macro going, adding these additional mechanics like l canceling that even though they in and of themselves aren’t super deep and always have a best option, the decision by the player on if they’re putting the action high on their mental stack and doing it every time vs focusing on something else for and alternative advantage is interesting if the game is deep enough
I am not a competitive fighting game player. But I really like understanding them mechanically, even if I don't wanna play at a high level(it just stresses me out), so I always appreciate videos like this one. You're taking the time to acknowledge that just because people enjoy certain games doesn't mean there isn't something that fails to work in them. I think people get so lost in the word "casual" that they forget that even wanting to play a game requires it making sense to you. I just want more games that attempt to pull the player in with mechanics that are so integral that you naturally adapt to using them. These mechanics feel like they aren't trying very hard to work with the player. Instead, they tell me to "get gud" and just adapt to the struggle. It can make getting into a new fg so much more taxing.
Good luck dude, it is a struggle between obtuse games and communities that can't help with your learning at times. I don't think Ed's video is spot on with L-Cancels in particular but his content is still a great way to get familiar with different scenes and quirks.
L canceling being removed would technically have an effect on even top level play since our data suggests even the best players miss it enough to be somewhat significant but I'd argue that doesn't change much and it's still a negative effect on the game
Under Night has one of the most interesting and fun system mechanics in fighting games. Managing your meter AND your GRD bar is super rewarding. You can spend meter to try and snatch the cycle at the last second, but it also leaves you vulnerable. Winning the cycle gives you a damage buff (Vorpal) and access to Chain Shift, sort of like an RC that also converts your current GRD back into meter. It also lets you dead angle or veil off (like a burst) without breaking your GRD, but it forces you out of Vorpal. You can also gain GRD by Shielding moves instead of blocking - but if your opponent hits you while shielding you get your GRD broken and lose the cycle + access to your D button uses. It creates this really fun back and forth between players and it's honestly a huge reason why the game stuck with me
I think another role to consider in the parry/just defend type options in comparison to the l-cancel is the idea of doing something on offense and doing something on defense. When doing something on defense your best option has to be done as a reaction to you opponent and a read on their habits and play style. When it's offense based it's just a knowledge and input barrier to learning the game, there might be "counter play" around it to make it more difficult to do but you never not wanna try to do it at least.
I feel like the idea of having moves would use meter in Granblue would work really well and make sense because in the gacha there are abilities that use that same mechanic
If they just added metered versions of moves, the meter would essentially become similar to Third Strikes. They could even go all in on that idea and make different length meters with different amounts of stocks for different characters.
The grandblue one reminds me of Castlevania Judgment, where you just have to use your special as soon as you got it because it is the most damage you can get and you need to charge it again as soon as possible
Well thats not really the case. Sometimes you'll hold it for an optimal payout, a reversal, or a punish option in neutral. Rarely do I see one hit into super unless it will kill, or bring the foe close to a chip kill situation.
If L-cancels were the reason for people having hand problems, they wouldn't be able to play any game that requires pressing buttons, because that's all it really is, you press L. They develop hand problems because of all of the other much harder mechanics, so that problem wouldn't be fixed.
I'd also wager that a fair share (or rather most) of the hand issues stems from the Gamecube Controller itself. It's no way near as ergonomic as a Fight Stick, which is exactly why you see more and more players switch to one.
Its not that L cancels are the sole reason for hand problems in melee, its just they contribute to them by adding more inputs and of course more inputs is more straining than fewer inputs
I can definitely understand your point about Granblue's Super Meter. I think the specials having cooldowns adds a bit more depth to the game where it comes to strategizing when you want to use your EX specials, but at the same time, it renders your meter useless aside from getting a high damage move you can use once the meter is full.
I definitely agree with you about L-cancelling, but if I remember correctly there is a niche risk vs. reward payoff that sometimes comes into effect when L-cancelling. Teching in melee, (An invaluable knockdown option) is performed by pressing L, R or Z within a few frames before hitting the ground, in order to add a skill check, the game will not check L, R, or Z presses within a certain window of each other to hit the tech, so spamming won't work for teching. These buttons used to tech are also the same as the ones used to L-cancel, and will trigger the lockout. Thus if I go for an ariel and attempt to L-cancel it, but whiff and get punished within that window, I am now locked out of teching for a set ammount of time, and an opponent who knows this can use it to get a jab-reset on me. This is a very niche micro application however, and I agree that the game would benefit with its removal.
I think your argument against L-cancelling can be made against motion inputs as well. Motion inputs essentially put a skill check on whether or not you can do a move. L-cancelling is the same thing. It's a mechanic that is there to add depth to the game and give an advantage to skilled players. If you remove it would lower the skill ceiling. I think L-cancelling should stay as a mechanic (although I'm still not that happy that it causes physical injuries)
there are not enough buttons and decent button combinations on a controller to remove motion inputs without kind of inherently messing with the amount of options the player has
I think your logic behind L canceling is fundamentally flawed, because it ignores the complexity the execution barrier actually provides. For example, we can compare it to Clean Hits, a mechanic seen in many fighting games. Clean Hits work by giving a move bonus properties if you connect it at a specific spacing and/or timing. Many times, there is no reason to not go for a Clean Hit were possible. It is almost always a strict upgrade. However, this is because the Clean Hit requires the player to have good execution to land them consistently, in exchange for an extremely high reward if done properly. An example of this is Sol's Sidewinder in GGAC+R. This aerial punch cannot be combo'd after normally unless you spend meter to RC it. However it has a Clean Hit point that causes it to do more damage and force a wallbounce with a tremendous amount of hitstun, allowing you to combo after it anywhere on the screen. This forms the foundation of Sidewinder Loops, a high level combo route that requires the Sol player to continually adjust for character weight and screen position to make sure they keep getting the Clean Hit. Basically the point is that writing L Canceling off as a bad mechanic because it's "simply an execution barrier" ignores the reasons why that barrier may exist in the first place. A lot of aerials when L canceled are extremely safe or even plus on shield, and that's your reward for passing the execution barrier successfully. The real issue with it is that the reward is completely lopsided and has no alternative. With the aforementioned Sol example, if you can't consistently nail Clean Hit Sidewinders, you can always just do a simpler combo that's more consistent but gives up damage. In Melee, the only alternative to L canceling is to simply not do it, which is always a downgrade. If there was an alternative to L canceling, such as an abundance of aerials that were inherently safe on shield without L canceling, but not as safe as moves that could be L canceled, the mechanic would be fine.
While the ky player got "unlucky" by having danger time activate and him jumping, he should have fd'd in the air, that's on him at that point. While random danger time is pretty wild it does add further decision making especially right after the countdown. A lot of people aren't a fan and i don't think it's great but i do think it puts everyone at an even playing field. Both clashing, getting 25 meter and you can choose to defend immediately or mash again.
1 L canceling is fun 2 your L cancel timing changes depending on whether you whiff, hit the opponent, or hit their shield. If the opponent dodges your attack when u thought it would hit them, or they shield last second, and you dont adjust your L cancel timing, you get punished. So it does add depth 3 L canceling has the melee spirit
I've been playing smash for upwards of 5 years now and I've dabbled in more of the "mainline" FGC(GG, SF, etc.) for about a year, and the one thing I want to see from the FGC in general is a platform fighter with meter. You could have L-cancelling back as less laggy alternative to landing aerials which requires a bit of meter to perform every time, have supers and EX moves like how smash tried to implement Final Smash meter, have pushblocking to escape shield pressure, etc. etc., it would just be really cool and I wish there was a good platform fighter with meter.
DBFighterz is a good example of a 1-dimensional mechanic in a way that is covered well by the Granblue Versus example. It requires a lot of setup, holding onto 7 bars for some stupid reason, and landing a basic autocombo. While it adds hype to casual games between two newbies, it's so hard to even think of achieving that it's better to just ignore the mechanic outright.
L-cancelling does add one thing to gameplay. L-cancel punishes. I understand that seems unlikely and I'm not a fan of L-cancelling (cause I suck), but people punish dropped L-cancels all the time in bracket even at top level.
5:30 He had 3+ full seconds to decide what to do, and he chose the worst option without really thinking and was punished for a bad mistake. What's the issue again? He isn't stupid, if he cared he would start considering his best options during danger time in the future as it is a real mechanic worth practicing. Even though it's uncommon you should practice it if you want to be good because of how volitile it is. The training mode even has tools for this too.
In terms of execution barriers, I personally see L-Cancels in a similar group to IADs. Personally I was never able to do IADs well in GGXrd and personally find that I avoid doing IAD combos since I can't get the height consistent, leaving to my combo dropping. While I never played Melee, this seems like a very similar L-Cancel skill check as its something you need to do to be competitive. But a good example of a game that fixed IADs for me was BBTAG which added a quick IAD command. For reference by pressing 2 buttons your character would either IAD forward or back, depending on stick position (neutral or forward did a forward IAD, and back did a back IAD). This helped me a ton when doing combos and controlling space in BBTAG and allowed for some great pressure. Personally I sit in the camp of "Fighting Games are for everyone". And in this regard I like seeing any execution barriers reduced from play. When players get out of how to use their character and instead get to focus on the flow of the match, the quicker they start enjoying a game instead of fumbling while their foe destroys them. Guilty Gear Xrd is a tough game but I actually recommend it to new players due to how it handles the tutorial now where its more minigame focused than walls of text. Personally I go back to some of the mini games like the blocking one where it sends wave after wave of Jack-O minions that you need to block. And while GGXrd is a complex game, you don't need a lot of knowledge to play it. All you need to play is how to move, your attacks and maybe a few simple combos. When I was playing it with friends, the game was an arms race of who learned mechanics. From FD brakes to bait moves, to reject guard as a parry and even got to the point where we were doing complex Oki plays to trap certain reversals.
I think it’s important to look at the context l cancelling is in too Since it was originally supposed to be a sort of hidden feature to get a leg up on your friends twenty years ago when it was made, and the game was never actually designed to be played nearly as fast as it currently is being played
its worth noting that L-cancelling is probably an unintentional exploit rather than a game mechanic, since it was removed from every smash game since, replacing it with standard landing lag. Still, it shouldn't have to exist, and playing on a modded version of melee where moves are L-cancelled automatically would be awesome.
I personally think BlazBlue's Drive Mechanic, which is a unique action for each character is the greatest fighting game mechanic as it allows for more diversity in the cast. In fact I'd argue that BlazBlue Central Fiction is arguably just as complex as Guilty Gear XRD Revelator, with the game like Revelator having legacy skill, meaning if you haven't stuck with the game since the original back in 2008 you have a MASSIVE hill to climb in learning frame data for each character's normals, gatlings, and overall mobility options that can be used on offense and neutral. Then there are the game's plentiful system mechanics, such as having a half a dozen options on defense that you need to master such as having four ways to block based on specific scenarios for example, and the game having a multitude of wake up options with each having a specific use, and that's not even going into the Drive mechanic, which is a unique action for each character, which there are OVER 35 of, which MOST of the cast plays VASTLY DIFFERENT from each other. Mainline BlazBlue games were HUGE in japan, with it being popular in many Japanese arcades, and as Obama stated in a podcast with Blasted Salami that the series had at one point been up there even with the almighty Tekken in terms of popularity. With many veterans like Dogura ( who is one of the best players in Guilty Gear who uses Slayer) and Fenrich ( who is arguably the best BB player, and currently one the best in DBFZ) representing the series for a long time . Sadly, The series just never took off over here in the west. However, the lack of popularity nationwide doesn't equate to the game's quality.The fact that is arguably the most unique AND complex 2D fighter on the market, but isn't talked about hardly at all in the west was always baffling to me. Especially when I read comments, and watch videos of people in the FGC complaining about how boring fighting games have gotten recently, or how easy it has become and yet will refuse to give the game a try. Thankfully, that seems to be changing, for instance Lord Knight, a tournament player who plays a variety of different fighting games recently made a fighting game tier list and put BBCF near the top, as well as popular GG content creators like Obama saying on a podcast that BBCF is arguably just as hard as Guilty Gear. For those who want to see high level game play in order to get a grasp of how hype this game can potentially be for you, I'd recommend a video titled "BlazBlue: Chrono Phantasma Grand Finals - Evo 2014" on youtube, and while the game represented there is not Central Fiction, I think it works, since Central Fiction is more of an evolution of Chrono Phantasma any way. Other channel's include "Burst Recap" and "Jourdal" for more high level Japanese play. . Finally, BB TAG and mainline BlazBlue games are two SEPARATE things all together, with BBTAG having it's own set of rules with the system mechanics, and SIMPLIFYING ALL of the characters. It's for these reasons that you can't approach BlazBlue Central Fiction in the same way that you would BBTAG.
I understand what you're saying about L-canceling and I don't disagree about it's one dimensionality in gameplay. But when you say it detracts from the overall game experience, ultimately that's just your opinion. What I like about Melee is that it's arbitrarily hard, that I get to press so many buttons and have to if I want to excel at the game. It reminds me of the argument around Starcraft 1 and Starcraft 2 and the difference in your ability and the difficulty involved in controlling your army (only being able to select up to 12 units at a time vs being able to select as many units as you have produced).
I'll be honest my biggest gripe with just blocking is that theres very few moments when you don't want to be going for it because normally the worst case scenario is you normal block.
IIRC instant block builds extra risk and also makes you more vulnerable to tick throws meaning that if you use it too often you could get it baited out and also take heavy damage for it, so i think you really only want to IB if you know you can get a punish out of it since if the string is gonna be airtight anyways it might be better to fd to push them out of range, or ib the last hit or where there could be a gap so that you don't crank your risc guage
Now if he had talked about the clutch button from Slap City as an example of a good mechanic we'd be here all day because it's a great addition to a plataform fighter
That could be interesting, but I fear it would make it even more frustrating (imagine clashing, then having to scramble to escape a corner, and failing, taking all the damage from your attempted escape as well as the danger time damage) good idea nonetheless!
With your danger time example, I don't think that was unfair at all. You threw out a button to get the opponent off you. Danger time activated, at this point you're in the corner and your opponent had the advantage. But they gave it up by jumping - a bad call in the situation regardless of danger time. That is a mistake on their part. Had they kept up the offense, it would have simply strengthened their position
Well, X isnt exactly 1D. You can pop it early to maintain momentum, or you could pop it from a move thats normally tricky to combo from like Haggar sweep, or you could pop it on a blocked super to save your ass/set up a mixup, or you could pop it on your last character to try and turn the tides. Sure, it can lead to some really lopsided matches and busted characters, but I wouldn't go as far as to call it 1D.
It really feels like arguments to keep L-cancelling as extra complex only exist to stroke medium tier players' egos (as it gives them a substantial advantage over beginners). In a high level of play, simplifying the mechanic has no real impact as high level players have close to a 99% hit rate with using it. As people have said, the time taken to master L-cencelling would just go into a different mechanic. Also, do people seriously think L-cancelling and parrying are similar dimensional mechanics? Because the SEVERAL differences were IMMEDIATELY obvious to me.
My favorite execution check in a game is playing as Setsuka/aPat in the Soul Series (soul blade, soul edge, souls calibur 1-6). In SCV, for example, Alpha Patroklos is very intentionally designed to be at the top of the tier list. BUT at the cost of git gud. What makes aPat the best in SCV are the various safe on block and plus on block attacks, high damage low meter combos (without the use of a wall or meter you have options to hit confirm into 50% + damage combos with attacks that are very safe on block), safe block strings and pressure to break someone’s guard, etc etc. just a LOT of ways to apply pressure and damage that theoretically there is no counter to. And this is all fair because of the high level of execution required to pull this off compared to someone like Nightmare (IMO the easiest character execution wise to play). He has several just frame attacks. And the more high damaging combos require a great deal of just frame attacks with different timings to be pulled off. Many of these combos become INSANELY unsafe when they’re dropped because a player didn’t do the just frame correctly. E.g. 2143 [aB], 2143 [aB] is a combo (and combo ended) with insanely fast start up. If you don’t input the half pretzel motion nor the aB fast enough you get the slightly slower version with less damage and reach and the combo doesn’t work. And this gives the opponent a free combo because of the massive end lag for that move. For the just frame to work the move needs to be done as fast as possible. So... Frame 1: 2 Frame 2: 1 Frame 3: 4 Frame 4: 3+a Frame 5: B Then near the end of that you actually have to buffer the 214 part of the move so you’re pressing 3+a on the first frame you can act, and then B on the very next frame. There’s also 3:B:B:, 3:B:B: and super long combos. That I’m fine with because it’s specific to that character and he’s not that much higher on the tier list to make other characters unviable because of fatigue.
I knew Melee would be in this video. I like L canceling because to me, it feels good to do. But yeah, it's a dumb mechanic. I kinda wish missed L cancel's were punished with added frame lag. But that wouldn't fix the hand pain problem.
L-canceling allows for defensive mixups, as shielding an aerial changes l-cancel timing, making offensive pressure harder. I agree on your point about hand health though.
L cancelling is actually a really important thing, by pressing the shield button to L cancel you also lock yourself out of teching since there's a fail window or more likely you force yourself to tech something in a way you normally wouldn't want to. As much as you want to believe it's 1-dimensional it really isn't, and it's also not a universally good thing to ignore it either since that doesn't help Peach since she has float cancels and a generally low apm and the same goes for Marth who's main tech limitations come from knowing tipper spacings and pivoting. If you're doing a punish then yeah L-cancels are 1-dimensional cause certain combos only really work because of the reduced endlag but it's not so simple to just go "this mechanic has no purpose"
Plus I've played the series for over a decade competitively with zero problems. The reason players like M2K and Hax have problems is repetitive strain injuries, doing the same thing 7000 times a day is gonna mess you up but if you stretch and take breaks it's basically never an issue. Only hand problems I get are when it's a cold venue
![Comeback Mechanics (In Games [Mostly Fighting Games])](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YsnLYxXESds/mqdefault.jpg)
![Comeback Mechanics (In Games [Mostly Fighting Games])](/img/tr.png)
Listen, l canceling isn’t 1 demential; you’re trading your real life health for advantage in a video game.
Thats big brain strategy
demential 😂😂
unironically though the added difficulty for aerial pressure is kind of necessary. Otherwise space animals would be even more braindead than they already are
Fair trade off
You have to react to different timings based on shield vs hit vs whiff and shield tilt and your own movement, it is significantly deeper than people give it credit for
In the words of daisuke in regards to danger time, "tough shit it's my game"
It's perfect
it's also gone in strive
@@bodacious12 So is most meter options, gatlings and other mechanics. Whats your point?
@@freshlymemed5680 that he gone back to his word, thats why
@@freshlymemed5680 that daisuke is a COWARD
Dude, you should really check out Rivals of Aether. One of the biggest things I’ve seen against L-cancelling being removed is how it could lead to the skill gap being so low that lower level play wouldn’t have to care at all about the safety of their aerials. This is seen in ultimate, where there’s a ton of lower level players that get mad over players seemingly mashing aerials that otherwise wouldn’t be safe in previous games, unless L-cancelled. Rivals of Aether, however, finds a really good medium between these two mechanics. Rivals of Aether does its version of L-cancelling automatically called hit cancelling, which automatically makes it better than the physically draining system of Melee’s L-cancelling, but it only activated when you actually land an aerial. If you whiff an aerial, it has extra landing frames called whiff lag. This allows for both a more insane combo game provided by L-cancelling, while keeping the precise spacing game that Ultimate players feel are lacking, all the while not being a physical boundary with play. I was gonna comment anyways to help the algorithm, but I just wanted to spread more about Rivals of Aether.
I actually do enjoy RoA quite a bit, I play Ranno in it!
@@eddventure6214 rivals gang
I don't really get the argument about auto-L-cancel leading to "the skill gap being so low that lower level play wouldn’t have to care at all about the safety of their aerials." Is the argument that low level players should have more recovery on their aerials so that other low level players can whiff punish them? (by that logic, the RoA system whould make whiff punihsing too easy in high level play)
Or are they just saying that L-cancels make aerials too safe in general? This is just blatantly untrue since the people who can L-cancel consistently still care about the safety of aerials. I don't think it makes sense to compare it to Ultimate either. It's not a lack of L-cancel which makes aerials in Ultimate safe, it's just the frame data.
Whoever told you that L-cancels are nessecary to make aerials unsafe might have no idea what they're talking about.
Here's my take on this "skill gap" problem. All players have some indeterminate amount, let's say X, time to spend learning the game. L-canceling takes Y amount of time(also varies player to player) out of that pie to learn, therefore reducing the amount of time players can spend on other skills. If it doesn't exist, all it does is make it so that players who would have invested time into learning it, learn other arguably more important or more interesting skills instead. Higher level players are still gonna be way ahead of low level players, only they'll be better than them at different skills, instead of an arbitrary execution check.
@@eddventure6214 Nice regarding none customs I main ori and ranno
The only cases where L-Cancelling actually has any significant influence is against Ice Climbers who intentionally mess with your timing in order to get a punish out of the longer lag. But yeah it's just a generally unneeded input with zero drawbacks unless you fully press L or R for some reason and risk locking yourself out of teching
But why would I mess with their timing when I could wobble.
@@lilchromie you mess with their timing SO you can wobble them :)
It's not one-dimensional, it checks awareness and there are scenarios where you can miss the L-cancel depending on what your opponent does or doesn't do. You can try covering for those with multiple shield presses, like an OS. There's even subtle stuff like not using analog L-cancel to not get locked out of tech, so there's definitely a lot more meat on the bones than you give it credit
An idea I had for Granblue meter would be that if you try to use a special move while it's on cooldown, you'll still perform it and reset the counter, but you'll also consume a bit of meter. Normal specials will drain, let's say, 20% meter and EX moves will drain 30-40. And these could be adjusted depending on the character. This actually helps newer players who might struggle with using their specials and remembering their cooldowns correctly, whilst giving experienced players new comvo possibilities at risk of lower damage and no access to a super.
oohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I like it
That is a _really_ good idea for how to make combo damage while on cooldown vs meter loss interesting.
It's not even like it wouldn't work with the game, there are plenty of characters in Granblue Fantasy that have mechanics that use their "meter" (charge bar in the gacha).
I like it
Granblue Meter updated wooo
I love how you used a match that you won as an example for the crappy mechanic. It goes to show that even if you win you still think it's unfair, and it doesn't make you sound like someone who's salty about it
In Rivals of Aether, they replaced L cancelling with hitfalling, which is the ability to instantly fastfall when an aerial connects with an opponent regardless of how high you are in your jump.
Don't forget whifflag, which makes it so that if you hit your opponent, the landing lag is basically halved of what it normally is.
@@xtra3678 not just landing lag, lag is reduced on all moves if you hit the opponent with them
hitfalling is pretty one dimensional. you either use it for better combos or if the combo doesn't call for it then you don't use it. It's fun and a good skill check that makes the game faster paced, and I think the difficulty is reasonable, but it does nothing for the neutral game and uses no resources, except maybe height, but there would be almost no reason to hitfall offstage. Also no shields in Rivals so you cant choose if you want to cross up with no hitfall or hitfall and make a potentially unsafe move safe.
@@williamtownsend8679 Ori hitfall dair into bash offstage can kill some characters as early as 0, as for the rest of your response it's fair and I agree with some of it.
I love how Rivals did things with all of this. I really wanna get good at the game cuz of how well all of the stuff is done in the game
Parry also does have a down side. If your opponent thinks you're going to parry, they can just not attack, and either wait a moment first or go for a throw. Then you can counter this by empty jumping. Thus, there's a lot of depth there. L-Cancelling on the other hand is solely a skill-check with no other usefulness.
I like how he mentioned L-cancelling but not brawl's tripping. props to edd for not going for the lowest hanging fruit, but instead making some damn good content
I really challenge anyone to find Jimbulus in this one, I hid him reeeeeaaaaaallll good...
P.S. As this is a video with a couple hot takes to say the least, Im down for any civil discussion and am likely to reply to your comments and questions as long as you word them constructively!
Butt head
I got angry so I’m calling you a slur
Do that and imma hit you with that N word jutsu
I don't see how anyone could disagree. You are practically objectivly correct.
It’s not about the arguments (which were great in my opinion), but the Dio time stop was great.
During the Skullgirls open beta, a lot of one dimensional execution checks were squashed purposefully. Painwheel used to have better flight frame data out of specials, leading to nail fly cancels becoming the default way to fly. Flight from normals was adjusted to compensate and remove the need for it, while still nerfing one of the only disagreeable things it enabled. Rebalancing a game to reduce the need for one dimensional complex execution checks is a good thing.
In the words of ProZD: “ALGORITHMS”
Entergaged metric
So actually L-canceling does matter in a few niche situations, since the timing for L-cancels changes slightly depending on if you hit, miss, or hit a shield. This means that you sometimes have to read the situation correctly to time it correctly.
9/10 though it's an unnecessary skill check though, and I personally think Melee would be better without it. (As a non-Melee player.)
I was going to comment with pretty much this. At face value, it does look like a mechanic which only exists to execution test, but there actually is some nuance to the point where you have to make a read to actually hit your L-cancel.
It gives you less end lag on your moves while landing its useful for moves that have exuberant amount of end lag on landing like link down air. But besides that it's not needed at all for higher level play unless your playing a spacie an crave getting those down air shine loops
@@dylanmckay984 The problem with the mechanic isn't that you always L cancel at the same time, the problem is that you L cancel every aerial, every time. The timing changing in different situations doesn't make it any less one dimensional.
This doesn’t change it from being one dimensional, there’s never a reason to not go for an L cancel, in these situations even if you mess up due to the timing the only risk you face is the exact same risk you would’ve faced if you didn’t attempt an L cancel at all. The allegory to sf3s party is a perfect analogy, imagine if instead of pressing forward to parry you just had to press a party button once and if you mistimed it you would just get a regular block but if you timed it right you would get a parry. There is no reason for you NOT to attempt a party and therefore is meaningless. Sure your opponent can mix up their timing and you might mess up your parry but you will suffer no more consequence than if you never tried at all. Its a zero sum game where l canceling will always result in an advantage regardless if you hit it or not and not l canceling will always result in disadvantage
L-Canceling is the natural evolution of Pandora Mode. Sacrifice your hands for more frame advantage.
In all seriousness, I like Danger Time in theory. It's really really hype and hype is important in fighting games. While it seems like Strive won't have DT, I think it would be cool if it could be triggered somehow. Maybe if you clash with full risk gauge, you can do a Roman Cancel and start DT. High risk, high reward mode to be in, but it removes the risk gauge from the one who started it. I didn't play enough GG REV2 to know if this is stupid, but I love the heart attack that comes with a DT activation.
random things are never good for competetive (with few exceptions of characters which are really random [faust], but they are so random, that random is the norm), if you want a semi random Danger mechanic, then all you need to do is use an equation that goes like this:
1. less health = 1,1x chance of danger for every 10% health left
2. every clash = 1,5x chance of danger
3. base danger chance = 1%
this way you can at least gauge when Danger will happen and you can even try to force it/play around it.
The weaker pros retire, my wrists have been hardened indefinitely from my melee play. Future Eddventure can bite me!
- SmashLadder TOP 500 Fox XON
WOW! its the real Xon! No way! Im sorry for the haram!
*Hand falls off mid waveshine*
Great video, dude.
L-cancelling has always been the barrier for me getting into Melee, it just feels so cumbersome.
and man, FUCK danger time!
It's not even hard
@@nothanksthough nobody said it was, lol
@@samproctor6826 and yet its a barrier somehow
@@nothanksthough An enjoyment barrier not a difficulty one, you trog.
2:21 Inside the right eyeball
How do you guys DO that omg
@@jimmykeffer7401 I played the video in 0.25 speed LOL
What is in the right eyeball i cant zoom. looks slenderman-like
Can't figure out what's in there.
@@AlbertBalbastreMorte it's jimbulas
I've felt the same way about L cancelling for years - glad people are bringing it up.
yo!
what are your problems with it?
@@Isaac-ym8kq did you read the comment? He said he feels the same way
@@leonardo9259 nah as in i want the concrete opinions so i can directly talk against them rather than what the video says because i feel i could be reading into someone elses argument there
@@Isaac-ym8kq oh good point there, fair enough
Hey there, some minor things about L canceling from a Melee maniac:
1. Since L-cancel has a 7 frame window and some moves have more than 7 frames of hitstop, there are situations where you have to choose which timing window you're going for. Would you rather have faster recovery on hit/block or faster recovery on whiff?
2. The shield button is also used for teching and has a 40 frame cooldown period after the tech window. This means that if you get hit by something that knocks you down when you were about to land you will be unable to tech the knockdown.
3. One alternative to L-canceling is auto-cancels, which don't require you to block but has other drawbacks, so it does make a minor difference on the risk/reward for L-cancel vs auto-cancel.
4. I don't think L-canceling is a major contributor towards hand injury since it is generally about the right hand where the thumb has to move very quickly from the Y button to the B button or C stick (unless you're using claw grip).
5. I'm not sure that having faster landing recovery would make the game more enjoyable to casual players. It may in fact do the opposite.
I'm not saying L canceling is a good mechanic, I think it sucks that it bothers some people, but it's technically incorrect to say that it's always better to go for the L-cancel and I'm too pedantic not to write a comment about it.
2 doesnt count because you can just not fully press the shield button (or just z) and the tech lockout window won't happen
@@Sylvergunner Fair enough, thanks for sharing.
Honestly I really like danger time, it's a batshit insane mechanic that is always hype to get even though it can easily lead to a match getting completely changed. It is a bad mechanic if you see the game as an entirely competitive game that is all about who's more skilled, but god damn its so fun, the interactions during danger time are always so cool and a breath of fresh air
Fighting game documentary lovers see Eddventure:
"We will watch your career with great interest"
just came of the recipe book video, just want to say its amazing how far your content has come in such a short period of time! The increase in audio quality hit like a well cushioned truck. Thank you for creating a top tier UA-cam channel to nag my friends to watch and to binge during lockdown!
Removing L cancelling does a few things I think you're overlooking:
1. Disproportionately buffs fox and falco, since they are the characters that typically arial the most in their pressure.
2. Removes mind games around shield tilting, and some ice climbers double shield mix-ups
3. Removes a reason people miss techs. Full press L cancelling puts you into tech lockout, and leaves you vulnerable to certain follow-ups.
Ultimately, you remove some of the decision-making at top level, and buff two of the strongest characters. I don't think that is worth lowering the skill floor at the end of the day.
They could then:
1. Buff the other characters so they have more aerial ability or nerf Fox and Falco (preferably the former).
2. and 3. Add lag for missed L-cancels (more than normal landing)
I think L-Canceling has potential to be a good mechanic, but the way Melee does it leaves much to be desired.
Comments are good for the youtube algorithm.
SO TRUE
then make your comment more constructive. say what you liked about the video or what you didn’t like about the video
@@logandunlap9156 i like the channel overall, he deserves way more subs
@@logandunlap9156 No.
Great videos and streams
Much love~
Love the video but two quick notes on LCanceling.
1. It is not the sole reason for hand injury rather the game has high apm regardless. I seriously messed up my right hand playing melee, yet I personally LCancel with my left.
2. The enemy can mixup the required timing needed to LCancel by flashing light shield or spot dodging which adds to mind games of when and how to LCancel.
You can still hate LCanceling, but to say it is nothing by a harmful skill check is not completely accurate.
I can't think of a worse way to create a skill gap than requiring an extra button to perform the same moves. It kind of implies the game isn't deep enough for the "good" players to overcome bad players having access to the same options. Fixing a problem that shouldn't exist, basically.
I feel like the Skullgirls Mobile “UNBLOCKABLE” super mechanic is ridiculous. I remember once I had landed a combo with 56% HP remaining as Filia and my opponent was playing Annie with 8% HP. He wakes up on “Photobop”, an unblockable super that deals 25% damage & sets up for combos, proceeded to land a basic string, and won the game. One way this could be fixed is by just not having unblockables exist in the first place. Another way is make them all leave opponents in non-damageable positions.
Auto cancelling in SSBU feels much better than L canceling. Imagine trying to tech every time you want to land an aerial.
Jesus me 10 months ago was fat AND knew nothing about l canceling. It isn't teching. It's hitting a button for 1 or 2 frames each time you do an aerial.
A common argument for L-cancelling I hear is that the defender can tilt their shield up or down to offset the offenders L-cancel timing and get better frame advantage. In this way, L-cancelling is more like a 1.5 dimensional mechanic, and even then, shield tilting is the mechanic doing the interesting part of the interaction.
The nail in the heart of that argument is "Remove L-cancelling and then make it so you have increased landing lag if you hit a shield on the way to the ground."
something that I think is often left out of l-cancel discussion is how there are ways that the person being attacked can change the l-cancel timing for the opponents aerials with the variable amounts of hit stop different ways of interacting with the aerial provide. For example l-cancels need slightly different timings depending on if the move whiffs, is powershielded, is shielded normally, or connects. by mixing up these you can make the l-cancel harder for your opponent and possibly get a punish if they miss one, you see this used especially by icies players who can use their two different shields to make significant changes in when the l-cancel window is. L-canceling also provides the same kind of decision making that more difficult combos do in other fighters, like in sfiv someone might do a less damaging combo because they don't want to risk missing a 1f link, someone might to choose to approach with an aerial that is easier to l-cancel or with something that requires no l-cancel to avoid missing a cancel and being unsafe on shield.
Anyway, loved the video man. Sorry for leaving such a long comment but I hadn't seen anyone else bring up this point in the comments yet.
as someone who hated L cancelling and played smash 4 for years (yikes) before picking up melee because L cancelling scary, this is a good comment and L cancelling is a good and deep mechanic
also if you're into melee enough to be getting injured from hitting the L button too much its not that hard to remove the spring or whatever. with the amount of box controllers and general remapping on the horizon as well, the arguments against L cancelling get worse and worse imo
I was going to comment something similar, so thank you for saving me the embarrassment of trying to word my thoughts
@@sixthchildren Keyboard melee is also a great solution if you don't have the hand dexterity to safely use a gcc. In fact I would recommend it over gcc to most people starting out since gccs are often expensive and inconsistent, while most people already have a decent keyboard. Since currently all tourneys are being held online over slippi it's completely legal and skill on it carries over to a frame1 for eventual in-person tourneys.
Great comment dude, someone else mentioned the tech input lock out in addition to this but we can't have enough Meleeheads here especially ones who are willing to recommend alternative controllers.
Skybound Gauge: Tie its functions to EX special moves that cost 25% meter and open up new ways to use it. You can use an EX special move while in cooldown for an added 25% meter. Carry over 50% of the meter you had from the previous round to the next round.
Danger Time: Get rid of it. Make Mortal Counters tied to hits where RISC is over 50%, without the extra 20% damage bonus.
L-cancelling: Don't speed up the endlag if your attack is blocked or hits an intangible/invulnerable opponent.
I’ll preface this by saying I’m not a big fan of GBFV and I agree that the super meter is boring for how simple it is. All that having been said, I believe it was intentional that it’s so simple. From the super meter to the one button special moves to the relatively simple design of (most of) the roster, the game is designed to be easy for beginners. There’s another game that’s even more beginner friendly (Fantasy Strike) that has the meter fill automatically over the course of a round (and carries over between them) with two uses. Ground super and air super. While I wouldn’t want most games to have their super meter be like GBFV, I think it’s fine in the context of the game.
Also relates to how granblue meter works. You gain gauge from other allied supers and attacking on your turn. I'd say they should give auto combos higher meter gain, give everyone 200% meter cap, so they can cash out like crazy and have more super offers.
I haven’t played guilty gear myself, but the danger mechanic seems very interesting. It turns something that would have reset neutral into an intense scramble for a hit.
Just wanna say that you're cool for playing Axl, Axl mains rise up we've got time stop now lol
Strive is prolly gonna be my first guilty gear game, and I was thinking I'd probably main giovanna, but that time stop looks fUCKIN SPICY. Love time manipulation. Also there's something so funny about hitting your opponent with these huge, dramatic special moves when they're frozen.
@@sleepinbelle9627 Its very cool. Strive has made me very excited for characters that I would never really consider in any other GG game, like Milia (she got a new starter guide!!) and Zato especially!
Don't mess with us Zappa/bedman mains. We're not fucking getting in
Yes, we shall use ZA WARU- I mean the power of England my good friends
L cancelling is great. Hand problems are not an argument against it as a mechanic, only an argument for placing it on a different button or designing more ergonomic controllers. There are loads of arbitrary execution checks in games. Theres no reason to take those out, it's what separates video games from chess. Just like tight link windows for combos in conventional fighters. You have to time it properly depending on if you hit, whiff, or hit shield. Yes, it takes practice, and will be a barrier for entry for new players. That's not a bad thing. It's one of the things that makes games satisfying to learn as you literally have tangibly better frame data as you improve. The feeling of learning how to do it consistently over time is great and you just take that feeling away when you strip away these "pointless" skill checks.
But it's so one dimentional and it doesn't depth to the game at all
@@sbevenine2055 just like kbd or requiring electrics to be a just frame input in tekken, or difficult links in street fighter. Should we not have any execution requirements in games since they apparently add no depth? Could just play a card game instead no?
@@tongpoo8985 the thing about the EWGF is that it's an extremely good move that needs a execution or else it's broken, removing L cancelling and making every move have less lag wouldn't change the game at all
@@sbevenine2055 you lock damaging combos and tight punishes behind Lcancelling too just like ewgf, not sure what your point is. You could remove combos from fighting games and just do the max damage and knockdown situation youd get off any starter hit instantly. It's a video game, it's supposed to be fun, and execution is fun. If all you want is depth, you could just go play a card game.
@@sbevenine2055 at the top level people hit their ewgf almost everytime, just like pros in melee l cancel almost everytime. Ewgf basically is arbitrary as l cancelling, but they keep it because its impressive, feels good, and takes a lot of skill to do consistently. Theres no reason to regular wind god fist as it's worse than ewgf in every way so it doesnt add any "depth" to the game either.
L cancelling is kind of a risk at times for the approacher cause you gotta predict if youre going to not delay the L cancel on whiff or delay it depending on the hitlag/shield stun plus height which can include shield tilting which adds a lot of variables
On the surface it def seems pointless but theres more factors than there seems, the only time Id def be pro auto L cancel is Project+ cause that game buffers through the other variables making it actually pointless there
To throw it out there Im an advocate for Pro Auto L cancel Project+ but there is an arguement for it in Melee at least
And on another note while L cancel does contribute to bad hand health its honestly not as bad as the rest of the shit you have to do to move around optimally especially with space animals.
I agree what the guy says about L canceling and that it's one dimensional, I'm also pro L cancel removal since I like it when disabled people can play games, so you can guess I am an advocate for accessibility as well but...
I think hand gymnastics and the pains and problems that come with it, including but not limited to rsi should be accepted as a risk you take when participating.
It is technically a physical sport. And like any physical sport, there are inevitably going to be dangers to the participants and their physical health. Basketball, Football, Soccer, literal physical violence sports like Boxing, etc..
But that might just be me.
A fighting game where little to no physical skill is required isn't a fighting game. Its a turn based strategy game.
I play rhythm games, and that genre is purely about testing physical capabilities such as reaction time, reflexes, hand eye coordination, and most prominently dexterity.
That might play into my confused position on the matter.
thanks for advertising p+. i love it so much at a casual pace
You deserve way more subscribers man
First I would like to compliment you for the really nice video, the point you bring up it's really interesting. That said, I shall proceed to rant about L cancel not being a one dimentional mechanic at all. In a vacuum it actually is, but the opponent can interact in multiple ways with your attempt at L canceling, he can for example tilt his shield to mess up your timing or, if he reads your move, can Smack you out of the move and try to force a tech situation that will be harder because you will probably miss tech because of your L cancel input. Those are just 2 that came on top in my mind, but there sure are many more that more experienced players than me could point out. Fact is, even at top level of play L canceling is not always a given and top player miss their's sometimes.
Removing L cancel is a good idea for hand issues you pointed out and also it's a somewhat awkward input for beginners, that said you cannot just simply "auto L cancel" everything, in some games work, in some doesn't, but truth is, doing that removes depth. For example, in smash 4 every aerial is super limited in uses because of the high lag they have, while vice versa in ultimate they still are pretty one-dimensional but they also make wiff punishing almost impossible, expecially on reaction. So far only rivals of eather and Rushdown Revolt have managed to pull out something actually good by removing L cancel. The first has a mechanic that reduces lags of moves that connect with the opponent and to me it's a really good way to solve a problem, it doesn't add much depth but makes the games really good in many ways.
Rushdown Revolt has an air dash mechanic, and while unique and interesting it doesn't look to solve the hand pain problem while also making the game somewhat repetitive.
There is still ton of space for experimentation in this department, but simply removing L cancel it's the wrong way to go imo.
But again, I find really good that you talked about this in this video, as a fg fan and a platform fighters fan I really like seeing the two world connect.
Thank for coming to my Ted talk
Out of every mechanic discussed, I completely understand not enjoying danger time, but I genuinely think out of them it’s Fun.
Loving the video essays! I really appreciate the thoughtful analysis of exactly why certain mechanics work or don't
Eddventure, as an Axl Low main, do you think Axl Low has become high tier (at last), because he stole Dio's the "WoRLdo", or is he high tier regularless? Something, something, one-dimensional
I think our time of prosperity is coming, Ill say that at the very least. I ALWAYS wanted axl to have his reality bending powers in his moveset so I am so Hyped for this change, and I think that allowing him to get a full combo off of a counterpoke with his newly redifined zoner toolkit is going to be VERY STRONG. Imagine trying to get in on a zoner, you get poked out, and youre back at step one. Against Axl now, you get poked, eat 50% and are knocked down in the corner, then back at step one. Short answer: Yes.
@@eddventure6214 Thank you, the SystemArk Gods, now we can swaht those Leo players out of the sky! Thank you, Eddventure for the reply, Axl Low players are few are and far between.
Regarding L-canceling, as others have said, it's not purely a mechanics check: you have to be aware of whether it hits, whiffs, or gets shielding to adjust your timing. So I don't know if I would consider it 1 dimension. Maybe 1.5? I would certainly like to see some some experimentation, maybe high level exhibitions with auto L-canceling turned on, and I'm glad that most of the Melee inspired games on PC seem to be foregoing it.
Happy to see the shout out for P+!
So I've played melee for a really fucking long time, was PR'ed for a bit, and I still think l-canceling is an arbitrary tech skill check that just creates a barrier to new players without providing any interesting choice. The answer to "should I L cancel" is always yes. And yeah man, hand pain is real.
heck, when even the basic decision to shield has at least some decisions behind it (it isn't a perfect defense, and gives up frame advantage when you do it wrong) and its rote but not really readable.
for an example of something rote but readable, most pressure strings work.
L cancelling is relevant for shield mix-ups. A great example is Falcon's knee, which has different L cancel timings on whiff than on hit. If your opponent spot dodges knee you have to L cancel early which means you have to be paying attention for a hit confirm.
I agree that melee would be much better without L cancelling but it is relevant at high level play.
Just came across this video, and I want to point out something regarding GBVS's Skybound Art gauge.
The reason it's so 1-dimensional is actually a drawback to the meter being too faithful to how the charge bar works in the original game itself. Majority of the time it is only used for "Ougi" which is basically the equivalent to supers here, however there are SOME exceptions. Unfortunately, those exceptions are character specific and nothing system-wide, like Ferry's Hinrichten super, which is based on her skill that does "guaranteed triple attack" (hence why you can chain any normals into each other up to 3 times) which uses up 100% of the bar for everyone. Stuff like that is converted basically into supers as well into this game. However, once again, this is CHARACTER-SPECIFIC, which is why only Ferry has it.
Now, one suggestion you made which I agree they can implement without breaking the game's faithfulness to the original game is being able to carry over the meter into the next round. This also happens in "multi-battle" quests, where the meter carries over to the next battle in the browser game. This can be applied here too so it baffles me as to why they didn't do it here between rounds (they even call them Battles too!) I think this is strictly because it's ArcSys, as they don't believe in meter carry-over AT ALL for some reason (P4A/P4U, Guilty Gear, BlazBlue, etc). It's really dumb and I think is the main reason why this isn't a thing in GBVS either. I think the meter carry-over should be a thing for sure.
So yeah, I don't think they'll change anything else due to how much they want to be faithful to the original browser game. Besides the meter carry-over, don't expect much else. At MOST, expect newer characters/DLC coming in with skills that could possibly use up meter too (maybe like their EX versions?).
THANK YOU, I've always thought L-cancelling was an unnecessary, 1-dimensional mechanic...no one agreed with me when I tried to say it, Melee fans will NOT let you criticize the game at all holy crap
And thanks for the Danger Time explanation too, I've had it happen but could never figure out why it was happening or what it meant.
I always thought L-cancelling was closer to a bug since it wasn't really an intentional mechanic
L-canceling was intentional, but it wasn't meant to be used as much as it is now. It was in 64 in the form of z-canceling, where it canceled ALL of your lag, and then that was transfered over to melee where it only cancels half.
It was originally put in the game so you could get to your shield faster after landing with an aerial, but the leniency of the system allowed it to be used for better frame data alone.
great vid man and you get 100 more points for useing birthday train
you forgot to bring up the argument that while it IS just a skill check, it has a little bit more to it - colliding with something (your opponent/a shield/an attack/a projectile), which changes the cancel timing window completely and might mess up your cancel. it still mostly hurts only low level players, but it's still the biggest argument for not removing L-canceling so it should've been mentioned (edit: also falling timings combined with the selection between normal falling, fast falling and double jumping. I still accept your argument that it's one dimensional but those are crucial points in the discussion, this is not just a simple "movement speed go brrr")
(another pretty important edit: YOU MUST NOT L CANCEL WHILE EDGE CANCELING AERIAL ATTACKS, it'll make you air dodge into nothing most of the time, so it adds another layer to the mechanic - if you are going for the edge cancel, you should not L cancel, but if the edge cancel fails you'll have the move's full ending lag)
(LAST EDIT: I still do agree that at least 90% of L-cancel executions are automatic and one dimensional, just saying that those things should be addressed in the video)
also this mech alone does not make people's hands hurt, I'd argue that its removal won't lead to better controller conditions in a significant way
if anything the way it hurts melee the most is having new players - instead of focusing on how the fighting engine works and your char's best options, you are somewhat distracted by this skill check which might lead newcomers to quit
I think a more knowledgeable POV would make your argument against L canceling stronger
my dumb text wall aside, great video!
Excellent video. They keep getting better.
In terms of some of the arguments about canceling, there are some arguments that can be fleshed out comparing them to other genres. From what I can tell, melee apm is usually in the ballpark of 250-450 based on ‘how fast is armada/westballz’ which is on the high end comparable to sc apm which can get upwards of 550. In terms of hand issues, these are mostly minimized in Starcraft since the keyboard/mouse can be more easy on the hands especially using altered key binds while a controller doesn’t offer the same ease, but alternate sticks like the hit box are fine for this.
And in terms of the mechanic being always useful and something that is just a raw input check, this could be viewed in a similar way to how in sc1 workers don’t auto mine when created and required manual input to start or the smaller max amount of units you can control compared to sc2. Even though these are things that are ‘always optimal to be done in the same way every time’ their existence enabled players to differentiate themselves in what they spend mental energy focusing on be it optimizing micro or getting a strong macro going, adding these additional mechanics like l canceling that even though they in and of themselves aren’t super deep and always have a best option, the decision by the player on if they’re putting the action high on their mental stack and doing it every time vs focusing on something else for and alternative advantage is interesting if the game is deep enough
I am not a competitive fighting game player. But I really like understanding them mechanically, even if I don't wanna play at a high level(it just stresses me out), so I always appreciate videos like this one. You're taking the time to acknowledge that just because people enjoy certain games doesn't mean there isn't something that fails to work in them.
I think people get so lost in the word "casual" that they forget that even wanting to play a game requires it making sense to you. I just want more games that attempt to pull the player in with mechanics that are so integral that you naturally adapt to using them. These mechanics feel like they aren't trying very hard to work with the player. Instead, they tell me to "get gud" and just adapt to the struggle. It can make getting into a new fg so much more taxing.
Good luck dude, it is a struggle between obtuse games and communities that can't help with your learning at times.
I don't think Ed's video is spot on with L-Cancels in particular but his content is still a great way to get familiar with different scenes and quirks.
L canceling being removed would technically have an effect on even top level play since our data suggests even the best players miss it enough to be somewhat significant but I'd argue that doesn't change much and it's still a negative effect on the game
Under Night has one of the most interesting and fun system mechanics in fighting games. Managing your meter AND your GRD bar is super rewarding. You can spend meter to try and snatch the cycle at the last second, but it also leaves you vulnerable. Winning the cycle gives you a damage buff (Vorpal) and access to Chain Shift, sort of like an RC that also converts your current GRD back into meter. It also lets you dead angle or veil off (like a burst) without breaking your GRD, but it forces you out of Vorpal. You can also gain GRD by Shielding moves instead of blocking - but if your opponent hits you while shielding you get your GRD broken and lose the cycle + access to your D button uses. It creates this really fun back and forth between players and it's honestly a huge reason why the game stuck with me
I think another role to consider in the parry/just defend type options in comparison to the l-cancel is the idea of doing something on offense and doing something on defense. When doing something on defense your best option has to be done as a reaction to you opponent and a read on their habits and play style. When it's offense based it's just a knowledge and input barrier to learning the game, there might be "counter play" around it to make it more difficult to do but you never not wanna try to do it at least.
Not true, you will be force to tech if you get punish before you land
I feel like the idea of having moves would use meter in Granblue would work really well and make sense because in the gacha there are abilities that use that same mechanic
If they just added metered versions of moves, the meter would essentially become similar to Third Strikes. They could even go all in on that idea and make different length meters with different amounts of stocks for different characters.
Makes a lot of sense this was a really informative video thanks great content man
The grandblue one reminds me of Castlevania Judgment, where you just have to use your special as soon as you got it because it is the most damage you can get and you need to charge it again as soon as possible
Well thats not really the case. Sometimes you'll hold it for an optimal payout, a reversal, or a punish option in neutral. Rarely do I see one hit into super unless it will kill, or bring the foe close to a chip kill situation.
Just recently discovered your channel. Theres so much good content!
*Mentions Smash*
Oh, time for tripping!
*Goes into L-Canceling and its physical detriments.*
I… I was not expecting that.
I wish for only one thing, and that is cancel using 50% meter.
Then they can start fixing the meter gain and I'd be happy playing this game forever.
If L-cancels were the reason for people having hand problems, they wouldn't be able to play any game that requires pressing buttons, because that's all it really is, you press L. They develop hand problems because of all of the other much harder mechanics, so that problem wouldn't be fixed.
I'd also wager that a fair share (or rather most) of the hand issues stems from the Gamecube Controller itself. It's no way near as ergonomic as a Fight Stick, which is exactly why you see more and more players switch to one.
Its not that L cancels are the sole reason for hand problems in melee, its just they contribute to them by adding more inputs and of course more inputs is more straining than fewer inputs
@@Nordanix I’m praying the new Panda Global controller fixes this
This is a great video. I love the idea of EX Unique attacks in GBVS, and I really hope they consider adding that in the future.
I can definitely understand your point about Granblue's Super Meter. I think the specials having cooldowns adds a bit more depth to the game where it comes to strategizing when you want to use your EX specials, but at the same time, it renders your meter useless aside from getting a high damage move you can use once the meter is full.
I definitely agree with you about L-cancelling, but if I remember correctly there is a niche risk vs. reward payoff that sometimes comes into effect when L-cancelling. Teching in melee, (An invaluable knockdown option) is performed by pressing L, R or Z within a few frames before hitting the ground, in order to add a skill check, the game will not check L, R, or Z presses within a certain window of each other to hit the tech, so spamming won't work for teching. These buttons used to tech are also the same as the ones used to L-cancel, and will trigger the lockout. Thus if I go for an ariel and attempt to L-cancel it, but whiff and get punished within that window, I am now locked out of teching for a set ammount of time, and an opponent who knows this can use it to get a jab-reset on me. This is a very niche micro application however, and I agree that the game would benefit with its removal.
Honestly think this was a great video. It was very detailed thanks for making it.
I think your argument against L-cancelling can be made against motion inputs as well. Motion inputs essentially put a skill check on whether or not you can do a move. L-cancelling is the same thing. It's a mechanic that is there to add depth to the game and give an advantage to skilled players. If you remove it would lower the skill ceiling. I think L-cancelling should stay as a mechanic (although I'm still not that happy that it causes physical injuries)
there are not enough buttons and decent button combinations on a controller to remove motion inputs without kind of inherently messing with the amount of options the player has
I think your logic behind L canceling is fundamentally flawed, because it ignores the complexity the execution barrier actually provides. For example, we can compare it to Clean Hits, a mechanic seen in many fighting games. Clean Hits work by giving a move bonus properties if you connect it at a specific spacing and/or timing. Many times, there is no reason to not go for a Clean Hit were possible. It is almost always a strict upgrade. However, this is because the Clean Hit requires the player to have good execution to land them consistently, in exchange for an extremely high reward if done properly. An example of this is Sol's Sidewinder in GGAC+R. This aerial punch cannot be combo'd after normally unless you spend meter to RC it. However it has a Clean Hit point that causes it to do more damage and force a wallbounce with a tremendous amount of hitstun, allowing you to combo after it anywhere on the screen. This forms the foundation of Sidewinder Loops, a high level combo route that requires the Sol player to continually adjust for character weight and screen position to make sure they keep getting the Clean Hit.
Basically the point is that writing L Canceling off as a bad mechanic because it's "simply an execution barrier" ignores the reasons why that barrier may exist in the first place. A lot of aerials when L canceled are extremely safe or even plus on shield, and that's your reward for passing the execution barrier successfully. The real issue with it is that the reward is completely lopsided and has no alternative. With the aforementioned Sol example, if you can't consistently nail Clean Hit Sidewinders, you can always just do a simpler combo that's more consistent but gives up damage. In Melee, the only alternative to L canceling is to simply not do it, which is always a downgrade. If there was an alternative to L canceling, such as an abundance of aerials that were inherently safe on shield without L canceling, but not as safe as moves that could be L canceled, the mechanic would be fine.
the infamous 0 dimensional mechanic: mortal kombat’s stance switch button
While the ky player got "unlucky" by having danger time activate and him jumping, he should have fd'd in the air, that's on him at that point. While random danger time is pretty wild it does add further decision making especially right after the countdown. A lot of people aren't a fan and i don't think it's great but i do think it puts everyone at an even playing field. Both clashing, getting 25 meter and you can choose to defend immediately or mash again.
1 L canceling is fun
2 your L cancel timing changes depending on whether you whiff, hit the opponent, or hit their shield. If the opponent dodges your attack when u thought it would hit them, or they shield last second, and you dont adjust your L cancel timing, you get punished. So it does add depth
3 L canceling has the melee spirit
I've been playing smash for upwards of 5 years now and I've dabbled in more of the "mainline" FGC(GG, SF, etc.) for about a year, and the one thing I want to see from the FGC in general is a platform fighter with meter. You could have L-cancelling back as less laggy alternative to landing aerials which requires a bit of meter to perform every time, have supers and EX moves like how smash tried to implement Final Smash meter, have pushblocking to escape shield pressure, etc. etc., it would just be really cool and I wish there was a good platform fighter with meter.
DBFighterz is a good example of a 1-dimensional mechanic in a way that is covered well by the Granblue Versus example.
It requires a lot of setup, holding onto 7 bars for some stupid reason, and landing a basic autocombo. While it adds hype to casual games between two newbies, it's so hard to even think of achieving that it's better to just ignore the mechanic outright.
L-cancelling does add one thing to gameplay. L-cancel punishes. I understand that seems unlikely and I'm not a fan of L-cancelling (cause I suck), but people punish dropped L-cancels all the time in bracket even at top level.
5:30
He had 3+ full seconds to decide what to do, and he chose the worst option without really thinking and was punished for a bad mistake. What's the issue again? He isn't stupid, if he cared he would start considering his best options during danger time in the future as it is a real mechanic worth practicing.
Even though it's uncommon you should practice it if you want to be good because of how volitile it is. The training mode even has tools for this too.
I mean, that's kind of irrelevant to the point in his video. That being that it can unfairly turn the tide of a match on basically a coin flip.
In terms of execution barriers, I personally see L-Cancels in a similar group to IADs. Personally I was never able to do IADs well in GGXrd and personally find that I avoid doing IAD combos since I can't get the height consistent, leaving to my combo dropping. While I never played Melee, this seems like a very similar L-Cancel skill check as its something you need to do to be competitive. But a good example of a game that fixed IADs for me was BBTAG which added a quick IAD command. For reference by pressing 2 buttons your character would either IAD forward or back, depending on stick position (neutral or forward did a forward IAD, and back did a back IAD). This helped me a ton when doing combos and controlling space in BBTAG and allowed for some great pressure.
Personally I sit in the camp of "Fighting Games are for everyone". And in this regard I like seeing any execution barriers reduced from play. When players get out of how to use their character and instead get to focus on the flow of the match, the quicker they start enjoying a game instead of fumbling while their foe destroys them. Guilty Gear Xrd is a tough game but I actually recommend it to new players due to how it handles the tutorial now where its more minigame focused than walls of text. Personally I go back to some of the mini games like the blocking one where it sends wave after wave of Jack-O minions that you need to block. And while GGXrd is a complex game, you don't need a lot of knowledge to play it. All you need to play is how to move, your attacks and maybe a few simple combos. When I was playing it with friends, the game was an arms race of who learned mechanics. From FD brakes to bait moves, to reject guard as a parry and even got to the point where we were doing complex Oki plays to trap certain reversals.
I think it’s important to look at the context l cancelling is in too
Since it was originally supposed to be a sort of hidden feature to get a leg up on your friends twenty years ago when it was made, and the game was never actually designed to be played nearly as fast as it currently is being played
1 thing L canceling will always give melee...
*you can hear the bois playing it from a mile away*
its worth noting that L-cancelling is probably an unintentional exploit rather than a game mechanic, since it was removed from every smash game since, replacing it with standard landing lag. Still, it shouldn't have to exist, and playing on a modded version of melee where moves are L-cancelled automatically would be awesome.
I personally think BlazBlue's Drive Mechanic, which is a unique action for each character is the greatest fighting game mechanic as it allows for more diversity in the cast. In fact I'd argue that BlazBlue Central Fiction is arguably just as complex as Guilty Gear XRD Revelator, with the game like Revelator having legacy skill, meaning if you haven't stuck with the game since the original back in 2008 you have a MASSIVE hill to climb in learning frame data for each character's normals, gatlings, and overall mobility options that can be used on offense and neutral. Then there are the game's plentiful system mechanics, such as having a half a dozen options on defense that you need to master such as having four ways to block based on specific scenarios for example, and the game having a multitude of wake up options with each having a specific use, and that's not even going into the Drive mechanic, which is a unique action for each character, which there are OVER 35 of, which MOST of the cast plays VASTLY DIFFERENT from each other. Mainline BlazBlue games were HUGE in japan, with it being popular in many Japanese arcades, and as Obama stated in a podcast with Blasted Salami that the series had at one point been up there even with the almighty Tekken in terms of popularity. With many veterans like Dogura ( who is one of the best players in Guilty Gear who uses Slayer) and Fenrich ( who is arguably the best BB player, and currently one the best in DBFZ) representing the series for a long time . Sadly, The series just never took off over here in the west. However, the lack of popularity nationwide doesn't equate to the game's quality.The fact that is arguably the most unique AND complex 2D fighter on the market, but isn't talked about hardly at all in the west was always baffling to me. Especially when I read comments, and watch videos of people in the FGC complaining about how boring fighting games have gotten recently, or how easy it has become and yet will refuse to give the game a try. Thankfully, that seems to be changing, for instance Lord Knight, a tournament player who plays a variety of different fighting games recently made a fighting game tier list and put BBCF near the top, as well as popular GG content creators like Obama saying on a podcast that BBCF is arguably just as hard as Guilty Gear. For those who want to see high level game play in order to get a grasp of how hype this game can potentially be for you, I'd recommend a video titled "BlazBlue: Chrono Phantasma Grand Finals - Evo 2014" on youtube, and while the game represented there is not Central Fiction, I think it works, since Central Fiction is more of an evolution of Chrono Phantasma any way. Other channel's include "Burst Recap" and "Jourdal" for more high level Japanese play.
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Finally, BB TAG and mainline BlazBlue games are two SEPARATE things all together, with BBTAG having it's own set of rules with the system mechanics, and SIMPLIFYING ALL of the characters. It's for these reasons that you can't approach BlazBlue Central Fiction in the same way that you would BBTAG.
I understand what you're saying about L-canceling and I don't disagree about it's one dimensionality in gameplay.
But when you say it detracts from the overall game experience, ultimately that's just your opinion. What I like about Melee is that it's arbitrarily hard, that I get to press so many buttons and have to if I want to excel at the game.
It reminds me of the argument around Starcraft 1 and Starcraft 2 and the difference in your ability and the difficulty involved in controlling your army (only being able to select up to 12 units at a time vs being able to select as many units as you have produced).
I'll be honest my biggest gripe with just blocking is that theres very few moments when you don't want to be going for it because normally the worst case scenario is you normal block.
IIRC instant block builds extra risk and also makes you more vulnerable to tick throws meaning that if you use it too often you could get it baited out and also take heavy damage for it, so i think you really only want to IB if you know you can get a punish out of it since if the string is gonna be airtight anyways it might be better to fd to push them out of range, or ib the last hit or where there could be a gap so that you don't crank your risc guage
hey guys its me chim bingly from the last video, sadly I'm not in this one... ill talk to eddventure about that one.........
Now if he had talked about the clutch button from Slap City as an example of a good mechanic
we'd be here all day because it's a great addition to a plataform fighter
I was so confused about what you said about GBFVS meter until I checked the date this was posted
This was a good video and I'd like to see one of you covering good fighting game mechanics
I was going to say that in order to fix danger time JUST MAKE IT TIED TO A COUNTER GOING DOWN TIL ACTIVATION
That could be interesting, but I fear it would make it even more frustrating (imagine clashing, then having to scramble to escape a corner, and failing, taking all the damage from your attempted escape as well as the danger time damage) good idea nonetheless!
@@eddventure6214 what i mean is the counter is how many clashes it takes to go into danger time, not a seconds til danger time is activated
@@brokenwing51 Ah, that makes sense, and that could help with the feeling of helplessness during a danger time, so good idea!
i want a xrd mod that replaces danger time with the tf2 critical hit pop up and sound effect
This video was so good, that it convinced me to subscribe!
That said... I can't wait for the squeal about GOOD fighting game mechanics!
Squidwards using my stick in the thumbnail!
With your danger time example, I don't think that was unfair at all. You threw out a button to get the opponent off you. Danger time activated, at this point you're in the corner and your opponent had the advantage. But they gave it up by jumping - a bad call in the situation regardless of danger time. That is a mistake on their part. Had they kept up the offense, it would have simply strengthened their position
I am surprised X Factor was not on here but I am assuming this is because it will be on a future video. Keep up the good word Edd! : ^ )
Well, X isnt exactly 1D. You can pop it early to maintain momentum, or you could pop it from a move thats normally tricky to combo from like Haggar sweep, or you could pop it on a blocked super to save your ass/set up a mixup, or you could pop it on your last character to try and turn the tides. Sure, it can lead to some really lopsided matches and busted characters, but I wouldn't go as far as to call it 1D.
@@dekuskrub2154 I see what you mean. Good to know others think differently.
It really feels like arguments to keep L-cancelling as extra complex only exist to stroke medium tier players' egos (as it gives them a substantial advantage over beginners). In a high level of play, simplifying the mechanic has no real impact as high level players have close to a 99% hit rate with using it. As people have said, the time taken to master L-cencelling would just go into a different mechanic.
Also, do people seriously think L-cancelling and parrying are similar dimensional mechanics? Because the SEVERAL differences were IMMEDIATELY obvious to me.
My favorite execution check in a game is playing as Setsuka/aPat in the Soul Series (soul blade, soul edge, souls calibur 1-6).
In SCV, for example, Alpha Patroklos is very intentionally designed to be at the top of the tier list. BUT at the cost of git gud.
What makes aPat the best in SCV are the various safe on block and plus on block attacks, high damage low meter combos (without the use of a wall or meter you have options to hit confirm into 50% + damage combos with attacks that are very safe on block), safe block strings and pressure to break someone’s guard, etc etc. just a LOT of ways to apply pressure and damage that theoretically there is no counter to.
And this is all fair because of the high level of execution required to pull this off compared to someone like Nightmare (IMO the easiest character execution wise to play).
He has several just frame attacks. And the more high damaging combos require a great deal of just frame attacks with different timings to be pulled off.
Many of these combos become INSANELY unsafe when they’re dropped because a player didn’t do the just frame correctly.
E.g. 2143 [aB], 2143 [aB] is a combo (and combo ended) with insanely fast start up. If you don’t input the half pretzel motion nor the aB fast enough you get the slightly slower version with less damage and reach and the combo doesn’t work. And this gives the opponent a free combo because of the massive end lag for that move.
For the just frame to work the move needs to be done as fast as possible. So...
Frame 1: 2
Frame 2: 1
Frame 3: 4
Frame 4: 3+a
Frame 5: B
Then near the end of that you actually have to buffer the 214 part of the move so you’re pressing 3+a on the first frame you can act, and then B on the very next frame.
There’s also 3:B:B:, 3:B:B: and super long combos.
That I’m fine with because it’s specific to that character and he’s not that much higher on the tier list to make other characters unviable because of fatigue.
I knew Melee would be in this video. I like L canceling because to me, it feels good to do. But yeah, it's a dumb mechanic.
I kinda wish missed L cancel's were punished with added frame lag. But that wouldn't fix the hand pain problem.
Nice Video! I love 2D Fighting Games Mechanics and i have even some ideas for my Game! This Video really helped.
L-canceling allows for defensive mixups, as shielding an aerial changes l-cancel timing, making offensive pressure harder. I agree on your point about hand health though.
L cancelling is actually a really important thing, by pressing the shield button to L cancel you also lock yourself out of teching since there's a fail window or more likely you force yourself to tech something in a way you normally wouldn't want to. As much as you want to believe it's 1-dimensional it really isn't, and it's also not a universally good thing to ignore it either since that doesn't help Peach since she has float cancels and a generally low apm and the same goes for Marth who's main tech limitations come from knowing tipper spacings and pivoting. If you're doing a punish then yeah L-cancels are 1-dimensional cause certain combos only really work because of the reduced endlag but it's not so simple to just go "this mechanic has no purpose"
Plus I've played the series for over a decade competitively with zero problems. The reason players like M2K and Hax have problems is repetitive strain injuries, doing the same thing 7000 times a day is gonna mess you up but if you stretch and take breaks it's basically never an issue. Only hand problems I get are when it's a cold venue