Awesome, just what I was waiting for. I will say that I'm interested to know where you're getting your list of archetypes, as I didn't see all of them on the list of Jungian archetypes that a quick google gave me. Do you have a paper source I missed in all your video text? Conveniently, though, I think your video explained exactly the point I was trying to make about Maid and Heir on your last video without actually saying so: Maids and Heirs are both *made of* their Aspect. They Create it, increasing life/health or time/dead people or wind/freedom or obfuscation/non-information in another or the world around them, but they also Become it: John obviously Becomes the wind and Becomes an entity that exists unbound by the material world of the comic. Equius is Made of Void and the narrative and everyone who can manage it deliberately ignores him (except Nepeta who I guess is Giving him some Identity). Aradia is Made of Time and Becomes an embodiment of Thanatos, the process of death that's part of the Time Aspect. Jane is Made of Life and resurrects herself and everything around her just because of what she *is* rather than what she sets out to *do* (which is part of why her character arc is so deeply unsatisfying but oh well). I don't know what you call this archetype, but I contend that Maids and Heirs share it. (That said, the notion of an Heir as a Magician does resonate with me a lot more now that you've explained them as an inheritor of magical power - like Dungeons & Dragons Sorcerers. That makes John's magician shtick make a lot more sense, especially since he gets a lot of it from a tome inherited from a kinda-sorta-ancestor. I can see roping them in with the Seers/Mages/Witches from that perspective.) As for Sylphs, I more or less explained why I think they're Passive Witches on the last video. I see Sylphs Manipulating and changing Aspects in others and around them, rather than creating their Aspect in their actual actions in the comic, and Witches and Sylphs live apart from society and are basically Wise Magical Nature Things in stories - along with Seers and Mages which are less slanted toward "lives in a shack/tree" but still tend to live isolated existences apart from society. That's actually a big reason why I don't think Maid and Sylph are the same Archetype: the Maids we see, like the Heirs, all have a very specific place in society, one that they have to either accept or deny over the course of their journey. John feels stifled by his middle class suburbanite "Kid" role and is still unfulfilled in the Credits because he never really found a satisfactory way to grow past it OR accept it. Jane is a multibillionaire Crockercorp heiress and she is completely aware of that, being forced into that role and then, after being freed from it, re-acquiring it and making it her own, accepting it in the most self-actualizing way possible. Aradia is constantly reminded of her place in troll society (mostly by Equius, who is of course 100% committed to his own social role), ignores it, and is ludicrously unhappy until she embraces a *different* role - a mythical one inherited from her Ancestor. Porrim, of course, rejects her role completely, but she never had a shot at fulfilling her destiny, so she takes on the role of educating her successor with aplomb instead. Meanwhile, Sylphs tend to be as apart from society as Witches are. Witches' familiars keep them isolated (Jade's loyalty to Bec, Damara's loyalty to English, and Feferi's duty to Gl'bgoly'b), whereas Sylphs are isolated by a solitary duty (Kanaya) or just isolatingly weird social factors (both Kanaya and Aranea). Anyway this went on very, very, very long but good video and very educational. I'll save rehashing which is passive between Knight and Page for another day. I honestly think in that case it's just a matter of point of view.
I only very loosely touched on this in the Class video, so it warrants mentioning again. I think Hussie borrowed the *concept* of Archetypes from Jung, but not the Archetypes themselves. That said, I'd say the Classpects most closely resemble the Archetype model of one of Jung's modern successors: Dr. Carol S. Pearson. She developed a model of 12 Heroic archetypes, meant for both marketing and self-improvement purposes, and you can find descriptions of them on her website: www.carolspearson.com/about/assessments-for-discovering-the-archetypes-active-in-your-life-and-work/ But the Hero Titles differ from those, too. I've drawn these Archetypes, as best I can, from Homestuck itself. Maid and Sylph are both described/presented as fairies, and Witches and Heirs are both described/presented as Magicians. Which brings me to your pairings of the classes. See, I think the parallels you're drawing between maid and heir and sylph and witch are, for the most part, very much there. I think it's quite likely the Classes are interwoven and interrelated, just like the Aspects. That said, I think there's some nuances where I disagree with your reading of Maids. For example, Aradia's depressed and miserable, but not really because of society--she makes it super clear she really doesn't care. Aradia's fatalism stems from her relationship to Time, and the inevitability of the awful time loop they're all caught in. VERY sweet catch at Aradia embodying the Thanatos instinct, because you're completely correct and I hadn't thought of her that way at all. I'd been linking the Horrorterrors to the Thanatos instinct, which is apt, since it's pretty much stated she's largely under their thrall. Roleplay also comes into this. Vriska, for example, stresses the verb "Create" and "Make" when she roleplays as Mindfang, who is a Sylph. She MAKES Tavros have happy thoughts, and she creates Bec Noir to claim responsibility for him. Etc. As for Heirs "becoming" their Aspect, I agree with you that there's overlap. But I'd say John's relationship to that becoming is pretty different from the Fairies' in some key ways. Mostly I'd say John's "becoming" most strongly resembles Jade's. Jade, like John, essentially "Becomes one" with Space, inheriting from Bec the ability to be aware of and teleport to basically all physical locations. John does the same thing with the narrative of the comic, becoming able to teleport anywhere in causality. There's a bunch of other similarities, but this is quite enough dissertation for one comment, lmao. I've posted links to essays on the subject in the video descriptions of the Class video, as a heads up. Sorry for the long reply!
Thank you again for the reply, and the link! Wow, look at that spirograph flower favicon. You may be on to something here, even if I'm not a big fan of personality tests with that many registered trademarks in the name. I'll have a read, and I'll definitely check out the links on your class video, too. I'm gonna try to address your points briefly just because I misphrased one or two things and then I'm going to let everyone else have their words back. Testing gave me "Rogue of Light" on my first try so I shouldn't just monopolize all the informational analysis and synthesis for myself, probably. First of all regarding Aradia, you are correct. She doesn't care whether she fits society when she's alive, but she *does* respond to Equius's kinky screwing around with it with (justified) rage, and she's not a real enthusiast about Sburb's assigned role for her either. She's not really 0k with it, is what I'm saying. It's only after their game ends and she god-tiers and *makes* her own role, an explicitly mythic one, that she's happy, and it's like flipping a switch. It took me a long time to understand Aradia since she has such divergent personality presentation, but ultimately it comes down to the fact that she's always put into a role in spite of her wishes early on, and finds fulfillment filling a mythic archetype she actually resonates with. I'm vaguely with you on Roleplay if only because the narrative goes so far out of its way to talk about it with the trolls (and because we've all gamed with Vriska. You know who I'm talking about.) I guess...I can see Mindfang (and Aranea and Vriska's Mindfang persona) Creating ideas, but all three iterations of this character also heavily emphasize, and I quote verbatim, MANIPUL8ION. That's an inherited, blood-based ability for Vriska, but it's one she inherited *from* the post-Scratch version of the Sylph of Light, and one Aranea herself is a past master at. Aranea's our only god-tier Sylph, so that's really the main thing that points me toward Sylphs as a Manipulation class aside from the connotations of the word connecting it to the Witch. Finally, I'm beginning to rethink the Becoming thing. Maybe everyone is supposed to become an embodiment of their alignment? All the Light heroes become sources of Light (information, luck), all the Space heroes grow to embody creative potential and/or literal space, Roxy becomes one with the Void when she's got that ring or her snooze on...yeah I'm rethinking this part of my argument, I'll get back to you.
Definitely do! As for the Roleplay stuff, these posts that haven't made their way onto Tumblr yet may clarify my position, and talk about Sylphs a bit, too--particularly Kanaya, but also some of Mindfang's Sylph imagery Through Vriska. Solid point with her focus on Manipul8ion, though, that does give me pause: revolutionaryduelist.tumblr.com/post/168807489002/live-action-roleplay-and-the-impact-of-ancestors revolutionaryduelist.tumblr.com/post/168837029462/live-action-roleplay-and-the-impact-of-ancestors
nerdorama009 I just wanted to say I agree about Sylphs being passive witches. At one point Jade asked Kanaya what the difference between the two is, and basically shrugged and said I dunno, I think they're just more magical or something. I interpreted that as meaning passive. So are witches stage 1 active, or stage 3?
I do recall that and that was my initial hint, although I don't usually bring it up as evidence since Kanaya later dismisses that comparison as facetious. Heck for all I know Hussie originally intended Sylphs to be Passive Witches but later swapped them with Heirs. That would explain a lot of the confusion. I can't speak to tiers of passivity directly because I'm still not super convinced of what Active and Passive mean *exactly*, but I do think that Sylphs would belong to the magical quartet with Witches, Mages, and Seers, and Heirs would belong to the royal quartet with Maids, Princes, and Bards. I guess per oD's chart that would make Sylphs + and Heirs +++, but I'm not 100% confident in that correlation.
what a lot of people probably aren't going to tell you is that the VISUAL design of these videos is top notch. i've taken to treating youtube like a podcast site lately for all the value people's visuals add to their visual essays, but i feel like simply listening to your essay instead of also viewing it leaves me lacking a lot of the meaning and quality of the argument. well done.
With the introduction of *The Ultimate Self* in The Epilogues and in Fast^2 Homestuck^2, I think we're going to see Archetypes becoming much more pronounced in the plot. Actually, I think that The Ultimate Self *is* a connection to one's archetype, and it's where a character becomes such an archetype that they stop being a person. And I think it's the Jungian Archetypes specifically! The "becoming less of a person" is pretty self-evident, as two of our Ultimate Characters had to become robots just to attain their Ultimate Stage, while the other described how he once was drowning in himself, but then "became the water." Ultimate People aren't as human and real as they used to be, and become extensions of the plot and the story. That's why all three of them abandoned building and maintaining relationships in service of furthering the narrative. But more than just being agents of the narrative, they fall into their Archetypical roles for the story. Specifically, the 12 Jungian archetypes, and I've got a good idea of which ones: • Dirk becomes the Ruler, associated with Control. He exerts his influence over the narrative, and has a tendency towards micromanagement. The Ruler is one of three archetypes (Ruler, Artist, and Caregiver) associated with providing structure to the world, and in this way he provides structure to the plot by narrating it. As a Heart player, his role Control manifests as controlling *people themselves.* And as both a ruler and destroyer, his Ultimate Self manifests as a villain. An antagonist. Where once he cared about morality and being a good person and doing right by his friends, he has since given up on all that. Now he's fallen into his role in the story, no longer thinking about his own needs or the needs of others. He's become so fictional that needs don't even register to him like they used to. • Rose has become the Sage, associated with Knowledge. This meshes well with her class, the Seer, but her class adds an element of Seeing and observing. And while a Ruler focuses on providing structure, a Sage goes on a spiritual journey. A spiritual journey is where one seeks learning or reconciliation through enLightenment, so she's taken the passive role of observation - she watches and Sees, accumulating knowledge. And because Light has to do with relevance, she's observing the events that are most relevant to the plot. She doesn't act or engage; she doesn't struggle with her passive role at all, as she has moves beyond struggle. People struggle, but she is hee Ultimate Self, a machine that serves and observes the plot. Where once she had a wife and a variety of relationships, she abandoned those with her humanity to just... watch the plot go by. She's on a journey, and her journey is just to sit and watch. • Dave is the Hero, associated with Mastery. We haven't seen Ultimate Dave do much, so we don't know how he'll express Mastery, or how that will interact with his class as a Knight or his aspect of Time. We *do* have a good idea of his role in the story though - he's going to slay the dragon. Kill the monster. Defeat the evil. (He's gonna cut off Dirk's head, y'all.) It wasn't outright stated, but I'm confident that's his goal, and the Hero symbolism has been so strong with him throughout the story that I really can't see him being anything other than a hero. Anyway, before he Digivolved into Ultimate, Dave was struggling with his sexuality and his unexplored but very requited feelings for Karkat. He was experiencing a human struggle due to his needs and desires. But when he filled his meter and unlocked his Ultimate, that ended. No longer did he struggle with his sexuality. No longer did he struggle with his feelings, wants, or needs. He evolved past struggle. Which is why he promptly abandoned the timeline to go after Dirk. Even though he didn't question his sexuality, and his feelings no longer caused him conflict, he didn't go to Karkat. He didn't *need* to because love and happiness were no longer things that Davebot yearns for. All he needs now is to further the plot, so he abandoned his timeline and chased after Dirk. Rather than provide structure or go on a spiritual journey, a Hero wants to leave their mark. And being a Hero with an antagonist in front of him, I know how he plans on doing that. • Although we didn't get any direct confirmation that jade!Calliope is her Ultimate Self, I kinda want to consider it, just in case. The strongest archetype for her would be the Creator, or the Artist, due to her artistic skill. Much like the Ruler, the Artist is known for providing structure, and this can be seen in how Calliope gives the story structure by narrating, allowing the readers to engage with it. And as a Muse, she fits well with the Artist. However, the Artist's keyword is innovation, and she doesn't actively innovate at all - in fact she makes it her duty to *not* innovate, and tries not to interfere with the plot at all. But perhaps it's her Musehood and Spaceyness that come into play here - a Muse is the most passive class, after all, so perhaps she is instead inviting others to innovate in her place. And Space, being the aspect of the setting and the world, is demonstrated in how she's more willing to interfere with the setting than with the characters - like when she tried to get Dirk with collapsing rubble. It also kind of shows itself in how, in the Candy timeline (which she had to herself) the setting and worldbuilding became more interesting. There were rebellions, wars, empires, and a great hole in the sky (a direct result of Calliope's actions) that ghosts were falling through. Her presence, however inactive she may have been, made the setting vastly more unique and innovative than it was in her absence. But also... she was isolated and uncaring. She didn't seek out companionship, and barely registered Aradia's presence. She also didn't care much about anything beyond the plot and her power struggle with Dirk (though there were some cute moments with her supporting the other Calliopes, but her feelings were very quiet and unpronounced, and these moments stood out for their unusual moments of characterness, which contrasted Calliope's usual removed personality.) I'm sort of just spitballing here, but so far I think it checks out. Now I'm gonna go see if i can predict who's next to use their Ult by looking at the Jungian archetypes.
Perfect way to end the year: listen to nerd talk. -not sarcastic I seriously love this- Okay, but this video did seriously help me with a struggle I had with my results on my EZodiac test. I got Scoro/Sagio, the blueblood, Dersitian Heart player signs, but I still felt I should've gotten Rage, since Rage players are those seeking the truth, and will seek to tear down those systems that defy it-- not that Heart doesn't fit, and I don't do everything _merely_ for the truth, but I do rather seek to take down old, antiquated ways of thinking, and methods of living, and all that, something that ties into my beliefs-- which also fits the role of the royalty/destructive classes. Fuck. I'm a Prince of Heart, son of a bitch, I can't escape having a lot in common with Dirk no matter how hard I try.
I think a lot of the specifics on the archetypes given (like witches being linked to familiars) is likely true but the way it's described it sounds more like a mechanic rather than the prophecy that is laid out by an aspect. From your description it sounded like Witches have familiars because they are a witch, and therefore they have some kind of animal embodiment of their power, when it would make more sense with the prophetic nature of the titles for witches to just happen to have them. (I know that isn't really easy to say and be brief for this introduction I'm just saying.) Also, your description on why Pages are active and Knights are active makes a lot of sense. I always figured we just didn't know enough about either to make a judgement since all we really knew from direct statements in the comic were that Pages have a lot of untapped potential that takes a long time to access. Not doing much for a long time but having a powerful profound impact on the world sounds passive, but developing that potential could be considered active. I think framing it more in the selfish vs selfless way you did makes a lot more sense. One last thing, I think a lot of what you say about the Royals makes sense for the Princes and I guess Cronos too, but to Gamzee? It seemed like he was more of an uncaring agent of chaos and servant to Lord English than someone performing actions out of extreme hubris. I like Tex Talks' interpretation that his character loses faith in "the plot" and so he allows and furthers the decay of the story. His actions don't seem selfish or focused on the benefit of himself and so I don't really think his trollicide is really him adopting an active role either. On a side note I like how in the same way that the magic-y classes are related to the scientific method, the comic itself constantly struggles with whether or not magic just just magic or a form of science. Much of Homestuck likes to toy with two opposites coexisting in reality, like how two seemingly contradictory thoughts can both exist.
Odd, I think UA-cam ate my second, much longer reply. 1) I understand the criticism that these descriptions seem overly mechanical, and it makes more sense that witches "Just Happen" to have their familiars. I think that's true, in a way, but I guess I regard the situation as a kind of paradox. The Witches are Witches because of who they are, and who they are is in many ways shaped by their Familiars as a constant force in their lives. And they have those familiars in the first place because they fit into the archetype of the Witch. Jung considered the Archetypes as sorts of base templates or platonic ideals of individuals, and I think that's what we see with the Classes, basically. Feferi, Jade, and Damara all share these key symbolic images in common, as does anyone who chooses to adopt the role of the Witch with enough fervor, such as Rose. (I've written further on Rose's Witch roleplay here: revolutionaryduelist.tumblr.com/post/168876986437/so-when-rose-went-grimdark-she-was-role-playing-a ) 2) As for Gamzee, the key takeaway for me is less about extreme hubris and more about his status as explicit Royalty. Both Fuschiabloods--Meenah and Feferi-- abdicate their thrones, renouncing royal status. That leaves the violetbloods and the purplebloods as the only castes with a claim to aristocratic/noble birth, and they seem to be linked in a traditional seadweller/landweller rivalry. The Mirthful Messiahs also worship Lord English and, according to Porrim, are the actual shadow rulers of Alternia and Beforus, since ultimately it's LE and DS who are the boss, not the Empress. Hence, Gamzee's destruction is linked to his highblood status. More writing on that subject here: ( revolutionaryduelist.tumblr.com/post/166199070732/unifying-myths-princebard-royalty ) And finally, I agree Gamzee's not behaving selfishly in his Prince roleplay---rather, I think he's switching verb uses. Where a Bard "Invites destruction" passively, a Prince simply destroys, and Gamzee definitely destroys pretty actively during his horrorstuck binge. He's also incredibly unstable, as makes sense for a very Passive class roleplaying a very Active one. More on that here: revolutionaryduelist.tumblr.com/post/168837029462/live-action-roleplay-and-the-impact-of-ancestors Thanks for the thoughtful comment! :B
Actually, Gamzee's hubris could be seen in his servitude to Lord English. During horrorstruck, he says; (TC: AS A DESCENDANT OF THE HIGH MOTHERFUCKIN SUBJUGGLATORS. TC: we are higher than you, brother. TC: WE ARE HIGHER THAN MOTHERFUCKIN EVERYBODY.) This actually shows us that in his head, being a Subjugglator, a servant of Lord English, makes him superior to everyone else. And as we see in Game Over, he has no problem killing Karkat, someone who he was once Morails with, and even does it with a smile, as if Karkat was merely a pest. He does everything out of loyalty to Lord English (And that servitude is what allows him to claim to be superior to everyone). Gamzee is a servant to Lord English, but that is also his hubris.
this helped me in a dnd campaign just now so my friend wanted to be a homebrew troll race and used an extended zodiac symbol for his character he was life derse and we used his spells in dnd (warlock) to deduce he would be a heir so we have a heir of life along with an asgurdian sorcerer and a dragonborn fighter. so thank you for posting this video
This is so frustrating. I've been trying to figure out what I am for years, but every time I end up with something different. A lot of classes have descriptions that apply to me and the same goes for aspects.
Yes princes are arrogant sometimes but my friend has called princes that are able to control them selves "healthy princes" as the "unhealthy" ones are the ones that have little or no control over their actions I am a prince of blood and you handled princes and bards accurately I'm just inserting some of my experience with this
I hadn't really thought about the visual parallels among classes before this. It's nifty and it could eventually help sort out a solid schema of the classes relations to one another, but I'm not sure I'm entirely comfortable leaning on it without having all of those mirrored panels in front of me. The first thing I googled came up with flipped images of Dream Jade and Aradia Bot smacking the shit out of their respective Heirs. I don't know what relation between Witches and Maids that might reflect, so it's not terribly useful on it's own. With twelve classes/aspects and with astrological concepts in play, I feel a dodecagon is the most natural way to visualize the relations between them. The problem being that there are so many uncertain variables and possible relations that it's hard to say where any one piece of information fits.
I can't believe I missed this comment somehow! It's worth noting that, while visual parallelism is indeed useful, it does not account for my entire approach when it comes to figuring this stuff out. I came to my views by looking at the Classpects from lots of angles--in particular stressing the search for the unknown classes' Key Verbs, and exclusive referencing. This gets pretty complicated when taking roleplay into account, but it gets simpler if you try to track how successful a character is at achieving a task in relation to an Archetype, or how happy they are while adopting said Archetype as a persona. For example: Contrast Kanaya and Tavros during Act 5, in their respective attempts to be "Fairy God Trolls" as they attempt to act as Patron Trolls for Rose and Jade, respectively. Only Kanaya succeeds at this, however--Tavros fails at being Jade's patron troll and ends up replaced by Karkat instead. Furthermore, during Kanaya's pesterlog, she mentions using the Alchemiter to *Make* Eridan a magic wand, referencing both her key verb and Sylph's "magical" nature. Tavros' pesterlog is the one where he attempts to imitate Vriska to some extent, and he's influenced by her at a time when she herself is roleplaying a Sylph quite intensely. The difference between Kanaya and Tavros is that Kanaya succeeds when linked to fairydom. Vriska is arguably successful at being a fairy in some ways, but only with intensely negative consequences--her biggest act of successful creation is...making Bec Noir. So. Yeah. To boot, Vriska is both unhappy with herself for being unable to be a Sylph, and so desensitized to her own feelings and natural desires in her intense that she's pretty much delusional. While not directly, a lot of that self-delusion comes from her subsuming her self-image in Mindfang's, which is why she experiences such a crisis when confronted with that delusion from the outside in Aranea--a Sylph who becomes inspired to act like a Thief. Examples like this one litter the story, and I am not entirely sure I'm doing this one justice here. But I wanted to give it a crack and try to express how I approach the text.
Do you view these instances of cross class roleplay as distinct from more inversion-y behavior? If so, do you find that they point towards a different relation between the classes than the active/passive pairings or the direct opposition of inversion? For clarity, I'm not behind BKEW level over-applied (nega-god-tier) inversion theory. However, with with all the other Jungian influences and some really substantial examples in the text, I read it as Homestuck's way of handling the idea of the shadow self. Uncomfortable traits/tendencies/roles that must be acknowledged, reconciled, and utilized in the course of self actualization; but manifest most overtly in unhealthy situations where self actualization is frustrated or subverted. So with that said what do we make of the patron troll situations? Kanaya makes it work to the best of her abilities. Though it could be argued that giving Rose Space wasn't a great strategy. Tavros gets plays the role, he just sucks at it. He comes off as a fairy for a bit and saves Jade's life, but he also kills her dad. (A mark for Thief/Rogue/whatever of Blood depending on how the class relations shake out) Vriska's fairy god troll efforts are all very Thief of Light as far as I can recall. Taking the spotlight as Tex Talks puts it. Her Fairy interactions with Tavros are a bit tragic because with that as her basic nature there's no way that she can give him relevance. Terezi's trolling almost too convenient from a classpect analysis perspective. Seer v Witch is the already the most/only substantial inversion we see and the first thing she does is indulge a stupid impulse, take advantage of John's trusting nature, and create a doomed timeline that spits out Davesprite and some alt-self memories for Rose. Then her interactions with Dave are more or less in line with her natural classpect. With Karkat there's so much material that I'm not sure I have anything I want to say bad enough to put that on the table. Not that I'd mind if you have any points you'd like to make about him. It's just that I'm not eager to dig through all that much shouty text to fact check myself when there are easier things to chat about. I've been staring at this for way too long now and I don't know if there's any end point I wanted to make. I'd just delete it but I figure even if it's not entirely coherent it's more likely to contain something of interest for you than no post at all.
I think the classes are framed as existential complements--Fairies and Royals have contrasting verbs, etc. So my model is pretty similar to BKEW's, except that I think "Serve" better contrasts "Steal", and of course I flip the Knight/Page alignments. I'm not confident this covers all the nuance in the scale, but I think it's good enough to work with until I've got a more firm grasp on canon's intent as to exactly what the scale is. That said, I don't really think "Inversion Theory" as such is a part of the story. I think Aspect "inversions" happen pretty often in Homestuck, and usually the Aspect "Switch" is to a complementary Aspect. But that doesn't seem to be a hard rule, and Hiveswap complicates the system considerably. Xefros is a Rage player, but in Act 1 thinks largely in terms of Time. And Joey is linked to Light and Life, above and beyond other Aspects. More importantly, though, I think Aspect shifts happen as a result of characters strongly embracing or being forced into roles that aren't true to their own natures. So Roleplay is the cause, and Aspect "inversion" or "switching" is the effect, in many ways. I don't think Rose ends up acting as a Witch because Witches happen to be the natural inverse of a Seer. I think she ends up acting like a Witch because she's emulating her Mom--who it's noted Rose doesn't really understand--and trying to take power by living out her interest in Wizards and magic. The emphasis isn't on the pairs as natural opposites that one will automatically "switch" to if distressed enough, but rather on the ways that role models/stories/archetypal images come into the minds of and affect the individual player. You're right that Vriska is still a Thief of Light through and through, even in the midst of roleplay. I view roleplay more like the characters "adding" roles rather than switching--the player's core tendencies and instincts always shine through, and that means that depending on their original Class, the characters will have different affinities/degrees of success at roleplaying other Classes. "Stealing" is a pretty different behavior from "Making", and Vriska proves thoroughly ineffective at the latter as a result. Contrast with a case like Eridan, who is already a highly Active destroyer, roleplaying an active Witch class and channeling his destructive tendencies into magic that he...only uses to destroy. Eridan adopts the role and the behavior (he changes his own mind about what constitutes "Hope" in the session, to his own benefit), and though he's undoubtedly more effective at the mimicry than Vriska, his core instincts still shine through. So Rose is still acting like a Seer as she roleplays a Witch--sending boys on quests, writing and delivering prophetic texts, etc. To boot, since she's forcing herself to behave more Actively, she's occasionally referenced as a Mage, too--"fakeMage pinkscarf", etc. Just like Vriska, her core classpect isn't removed due to embracing the Witch role--it's only complicated. Similarly, I think there's a stronger argument that Terezi is roleplaying a Knight, not a Witch--she internalizes the image of a Knight from Redglare, takes an interest in Knight players as a rule, and is put in a positon to echo both Dave (in Seer: Ascend) and Redglare (in taking down Mindfang at the GHB's request) when she works to bring Vriska to justice. PHEW, this was a lot. Sorry! I'm really looking forward to exploring these closer case studies in more accessible video form one by one, so I got a bit excited when you asked, haha :D
So there's one bit in particular here that I'd like to prod at because I feel like making it explicit makes any analysis of classpects easier. None of this is really causal within the narrative. Given the flexibility of the aspects and all of the powerful artifacts in the game, a character with no particular background or predisposition could theoretically do anything regardless of their hero title. The hero titles and their extended interpretations are kinda like patterns predicting what a character's roles and manifestations of power will be without actually constraining them. SBURB grants the titles, quests, powers, etc. that give the base classpects in-world significance, but I take all the extensions as meta-narrative. Homestuck can be awfully committed to its meta-narrative so I find inversion appealing as another pretty pattern. Doc Scratch doesn't manipulate Rose to get her to act as an X of Void. Doc Scratch manipulates Rose and from the outside we see an interesting relation between how that plays out and her Skaia ordained role. I look forward to your video on roleplaying. Even if there's not a consistent pattern in what classes roleplay one another, the examples sound nifty.
I've been struggling with 1 thing: The Passivity/Activity of the Heir/Witch Class pairing. As "One who Changes ____", I find that using the definition of "self-directed change" for active changer, and "other-directed change" for the passive changer, we have more examples in canon of the Heirs changing themselves directly (John Egbert literally changing his body into Breath, Mituna Captor changing his own fate by dooming himself to save his party, Equius Zahhak changing his corporeality and turning into Void) and of Witches changing their aspects for everybody else's benefit (Jade Harley changing locations and scale to save others' planets and session, Feferi changing the way that Life works by inciting the Horrorterrors to grant dead players Dream Bubbles to reside in, Damara Megido aiding in the establishment of the Grand Alpha Time Loop that is the Birth of Lord English, which deeply affects how others experience Time). Maybe my definitions of Active & Passive classes is wrong, but currently, that is what seems to make sense. I will acknowledge that Heirs seem to transition in a more Passive role towards late-game, when they change their aspect to save others (John using freedom from the narrative to rewrite events and change the canon, Mituna's act of self-sacrifice also saved his party from Doom), but I don't think that is because the Heir is a Passive class, but instead that the self-directed changes that Heirs engage with tend to affect others by proxy. What do you think?
Pretty much all this stuff is written down in some way on Medium or Tumblr, yeah. I went ahead and added links to the basic arguments for the Archetypes to the description of this video. Hope you enjoy!
I know my question will mostly likely not be answered, but there’s no harm in asking So when you say that mage and seers perform “miracles” what exactly does that entail? Does that mean a mage/seer of light could perform a miracle and get the ultimate roll of luck ? Or a mage of hope performing a miracle that literally brings there hopes and dreams into existence? The term miracle is so broad and vast it could mean a lot of things And is the miracle done through magic or by sheer will power, or both ?
This is a good question! I was asked this on Tumblr as well, so I'll copy paste my answer from there: I tried to express this point back in the Force & Flow essays, but I’m not sure I succeded, so I’m glad for the chance to revisit it! I think I can answer your first question with the second. The range of a “miracle” is essentially the same as the range of “magic”, a concept that canonically applies to Heirs, Witches, Maids and Sylphs. image EB: how do you know about jegus? do you even know what that is? AG: I have no idea! It's something Terezi has 8een saying non stop for some reason. AG: It is weirdly infectious. AG: What is it, some sort of human profanity? EB: no. well, yeah kind of. EB: it is a misspelling of an adult male bearded human, who was magic. Jesus’ story is imported into Homestuck in the story of the Signless-a Seer. When Jesus comes up, John describes him as magic-just as he later describes himself, Jade, and Rose in the midst of her Witch roleplay. (And yes, this does mean the Jegus meme had a payoff in the form of classpect exposition.) image DAVE: (arent you magic or something) DAVE: (are you still magic or is your superpower now just talking a lot and wearing orange) DAVE: (why dont you use your magics to wake her up) DAVE: (arent you kinda curious to talk to her) DAVE: (like find out what her deal is) ROSE: (Yes.) ROSE: (But I don't think I know that spell.) DAVE: (hey what even is magic anyway) DAVE: (like are spells real like when you do magic are you actualy doing legit spells like the dipshits in harry potter) DAVE: (babbling up some false baloney ass latin) ROSE: (Not really?) DAVE: (i knew it what a load of shit that all is) ROSE: (What?) DAVE: (spells and shit) ROSE: (Um. Ok?) Later on, Rose seems to more or less figure out how to roleplay a wizard. But when Dave thinks to ask, she makes it clear what she’s doing isn’t exactly casting spells in the typical sense. Which makes sense, because Prophets aren’t typically thought of as being magic per se. If you think about it, the miracles Jesus performs aren’t really that different from what we might imagine wizards could do. What makes them different is a matter of emphasis. Wizards are regularly linked to knowledge, just like prophets are. Hence the concept of the “wizard’s spellbook”. But for magicians, knowledge is typically a means to an end, it’s an answer to “how” the magic is performed. Prophets also do magic, but for them the emphasis is on the knowledge itself as opposed to the spellbook. A Prophet like Jesus or Moses would typically claim their magic wouldn’t happen at all, but for their faith in and knowledge of their divine Source-God. Just trade in the figure of “God” for the Seer/Mage’s Aspect (the Aspects are inherently divine-coded anyway, given that they’re basically Aeons), and there you go. Any kind of magic you can think of a Prophet doing through their Aspect is something I believe reasonably falls under their purview. I’d simply put just as much of an emphasis on what the Prophet might end up saying as a result of their Aspect’s influence, which is probably even more interesting. Do their prophecies concern/affect/benefit primarily themselves or others? How does their Aspect influence what message they have to give, and how they deliver it? A particular nuance to the pair might be a penchant for resurrections/raising others from the dead, particularly in ways that might otherwise seem impossible. Sollux pulls this off for himself by half-ghosting, while Terezi pulls it off for Vriska by guiding John’s choices. Hopefully this helps? Let me know what you think!
Haha, yeah that was me on tumblr as well. I honestly didn’t think you would answer the question, so I also asked it here. But still thanks so much for the explanation ^w^
I always interpreted seer and mage classes to the next impact. Seer:use the reality to know their aspect. Mage:use their aspect to know reality. When I say reality I mean their knowledge,perspective,direction and goal,seer choose option to move with reality,mage make their own option and see were their leave them.
So, I suppose I'm a Derse Sylph of Time. I've been mulling over all of the roles for a while, trying to figure out where I was. Passive, Active, Knight Prince, etc. But, when we came to the fairy types, and it was explained that they are, basically bipolar, I realized I'm a Sylph. Because Maid is a female only class, Sylph is inevitably where I fall. One who makes Time, or makes through Time, for others. This... sings to how I spend so much time TRYING to entertain others. Through UA-cam. Through Voice Acting. And though my intentions can sometimes feel selfish, as I worry for my own future, inevitably, my objective is to make others happy regardless of that.
I have been attempting to find myself a proper classpect for a good amount of time now. I believe myself to be a Time player, as I hold many of the traits described on the Extended Zodiac for the aspect. I also have found myself drawn torwards characters in the comic under the aspect (Dave and Aradia in particular), although I'm unsure whether that matters. However, I also have several traits of a Space player. I'm rather creative and compassionate, and, despite the fact that I can barely work without it, I am not very good at making music (that's not a Spacey trait, just the lack of a Time trait). I have a tendancy to completely and totally "destroy" my own time by packing my schedule very tightly. Despite this, I don't steal or destroy anybody else's time, as I am very seldom late. I don't believe myself a Prince or Bard due to the fact that I'm a more flexible person when it comes to being active or passive, and I am not particularly arrogant. Please help. I identify under the sign of Aquaries, sign of the Heroic, if that helps at all.
"This video doesn't cover the master classes, lord and muse" Right off the bat that leaves me in the lurch... I'm a guy, but personality tests seem to insist... I'm a muse... And I'm a mind aspect so naturally I'm going a bit nuts over the potential implications of this. CONTEXT: I took the extended zodiac quiz and was labeled Aquaza, the politic. (Aquarius, dersite, Mind aspect). I then took a very in depth personality quiz and it placed me in the most passive class on the spectrum, the Muse. However, Muse is reserved for women only, so unless I want to take a step WAY off center, I can't have a class even CLOSE to the one I seem to match (Next step up the passive/active scale stands in DRASTIC power contradiction one way or the other)
I'm gonna agree with eI here. Word of God on the matter is that gender isn't really a block here, and I myself am finding myself flirting with Maid as much as Mage, lately. That said, I do have plenty of writing on Lord and Muse out there, if you're interested. It was just too much to cram into this little video, since Calliope and Caliborn's classpects impact my reading of...literally every single page of Homestuck, and explaining why would have ballooned this video's length.
If you ask me, gender is at best a bias in class assignment, not an absolute. I also think Calliope was projecting quite a bit when she described gender assignments, since she's very focused on her own female-ness as a way to distance herself from Caliborn, just has he focused on his male-ness as a way to distance himself from her. And to generally be a tool.
Yep! It's also worth noting that Homestuck challenges biological essentialism at every step. Lots of characters grapple with different kinds of "limits" they believe are placed on them or others by their inherent biology, and especially in the endgame, Homestuck makes it a point to knock those preconceptions down. The Hemospectrum is the most obvious example, but there's also all the struggles with LGBT identity among the human cast, or John realizing he can experience black romance, or Calliope herself assuming she "can't" feel Red romance emotions because of her species, and then ending up with Roxy. Calliope, like everyone else in the cast, makes assumptions about biological sex and what it determines about your potential. So I'd say say there's canonical grounding for the idea that she was misunderstanding Classpects in this specific regard.
I find classpects very interesting, when i was a child i most likely was a heir or hope, which got twisted as i grew because of reasons (still a hope player) and my powers were clear, or at least the passive effect on people. I once had a physical manifestation of the powers: one time i was close to death literal angels helped me, i did not see them (eyes closed) but i felt their tiny hands and then an actual adult-sized angel which i saw but i cant remember any details of them (such as face) getting me out of the situation, they were all gone once i was fine and i wasnt weirded out by that for some reason (or i dont remember being weirded out).
I said this to say that classpects not only mean personalities but also true powers, may them be just passive or actually physical at times, though the second rare it -aparently- exists. There also are powers that are explicit, controlable or not, for example: a doom/heart person that can interact with ghosts in some way (Now, this doesnt mean all doom/hearts players are able to, and those players might not be the ones that can irl, i know one person that can interact with ghosts but just because they were slightly famous in my country, i do not know their classpect and im mostly theorizing but i guess you can get the point)
Despite how much information on the classes I read, I find it particularly frustrating as to which one resonates most with me. A majority of them hold traits that resemble my thoughts and behaviors. I feel like I'm looking for an answer that doesn't exist. Same goes for the aspects.
well, I am curious now What´s your classpect and how does it define you? Example. i´m a Mage of Blood, I know, and know through blood My conection with others helps me learn, grow as a person and upping my funcionality as a person with asperger, all my life has been that way and i don´t plan to stop learning
I have asperger's too. I am a page of light. I am not sure if the role is active or passive. It may depend on the context. But i know that my personal growth seemed to be slower than other people in many settings (social, school and self-growth ) But manage to find a lot of untapped potential in my capacities as a late bloomer. On my light aspect I also am able to have knowledge that no other people are able to see because i had to take other path in life than everyone takes to be able to reach my potential. I worked a lot on myself in my life to have what everyone seemed to have, but it made me open minded to see alternate possibilities to gain growth and knowledge. Seeing the angle other people does not see.
I love to think I'm a Seer/Maid of Space. Seers learn passively just as me:I love knowledge and learning new things,but almost always just wait for it to happen,without actually searching myself. I feel connection to Space,cuz I'm planning to be a medstudent,love science and art ,fashion and drawings are my great passion. Seer's prime contest is to become a master nerd in their aspect and I love the idea I can be super smart in biology ,lmao. I feel connected to Maids as they're known to start off as passive and too relying on others,so that hits me there. I also strongly relate to Rogue of Light as I'm WAY too lucky irl.
Dude I just discovered your channel but holy hell it's amazing. The ammount of detail and depth you go into discussing Homestuck is incredible, and even a Homestuck veteran like myself learns something new with each of your videos, which should both tell you the true depths of Homestuck and how informative and throught out your videos are. Great content mate, keep up the HS content for all of those still rolling around in this grey-body-paint-stained trash can that we call home! (because we're stuck here :p)
I've seen people describe the page as someone who serves/serves through [aspect] for themselves, yet call the page passive, also theres the assumption that passive=weak (extremely wrong) similarly they describe knights as ones who use [aspect] for others yet still call them active
By watching all three parts, I've determined that I'm either a Seer of Hope or a Page of Heart... it's awfully hard to tell. I'll probably just take the aspect and class tests as a tiebreaker. Or watch some of you HSL videos that I sawa bout a page of heart and a seer of hope.
So I had a shower thought this morning in regards to Heirs as Passive Manipulators and Sylphs as Passive Creators: gender bias. Prefacing this with a reminder that I think Calliope's thoughts on class-gender-bias are colored heavily by her own personal views on gender and how she and Caliborn identify as opposites of each other, that doesn't mean it's not a valid way to compare classes. Specifically what I thought of is that the Creation classes are obviously opposite of Destruction classes, right? And in Calliope's assessment, both Prince and Bard are classes with a heavy if not exclusive "male" bias. So it would make sense that the Creation classes are ones with a heavy if not exclusive "female" bias, which fits both Maid and Sylph as we see in the comic, but *not* Heir. It's circumstantial evidence and relies on something I consider unreliable narration, but Hussie *does* love his symmetry. Between this and mentally equating "Heir" to "D&D Sorcerer" as you do, I am now pretty much on the edge between my initial view of Heir and Sylph vs. yours.
The only thing I think you got wrong is the part about all knights trying to get their teammates to trust them. Karkat only did that because he was a knight of the blood aspect. Apart from that, great video!
Latula spends most of her energy on supporting Mituna, and Dave definitely takes responsibility for his friends' well-being. I agree Karkat takes a particular focus on relationships as the Blood player, but it's explicitly stated that Latula puts up her "R4D G1RL" persona for others' benefit, and Dave similarly uses his cool kid persona to teach John stuff/get people to let him help them with stuff. The emphasis isn't necessarily on trust in terms of leadership, like Karkat. It's more about making themselves seem independent and capable, capacities they devote to benefit others often.
what would be a familiar for a Witch if Heart? I realized that this fits me more than Witch of Breath and having a second me makes more sense loOOL okay now I wanna be a Maid hHHHH a bEAR since bears are used as emotional support and love
Awesome video,OptimisticDuelist,I really enjoy your videos,but I want to add something about godtier system. I don't know if you know,but actually god tier system or something very similar to it was taken from a novel called "Lord of Light" by Roger Zelazny.Where are aspects too,but main characters use attributes instead of classes. Here is a link en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_Light, I just want to hear your opinion,and sorry about my bad English if I wrote something wrong,I'm not english speaking.
Wow, this is fascinating. I definitely see the parallels here, but I'm not sure if that's because Homestuck borrows from this book in particular or if it's because both works draw on similar sources. The control of resources/knowledge/technology and the search for freedom/enlightenment are both fairly universal quests in mythology, after all! Stargate has a somewhat similar plot as well, with Egyptian deities taking on the antagonistic role as opposed to Hindu ones. I will definitely, definitely be checking this book out though--if Homestuck ever references it in canon, it could represent another breakthrough in understanding the comic, so I always look into leads like this one. Thanks a ton, this is awesome!
I agree with how you paired the classes together, but I don’t see how a Knight can be a passive class. In the comic, you see Dave exploiting his aspect of time to preserve himself via time warping. Furthermore, he is in more of a combat-centric role, which makes him active as a result. On the contrary, Jake as a Page shows the opposite once he started the game. He does not actively use his aspect’s powers unlike Dave. Essentially, Jake was inert until Aranea unlocked his potential. Dave already tapped into his powers alone. Overall, Knights in real life tend to be in the front lines fighting (active) whereas Pages assist the Knight with trivial duties such as armor maintenance (passive). It appears that Knights are active classes and Pages are passive classes.
It's worth mentioning that I considered Knights Active for a pretty long time, and still think it's somewhat debatable. My biggest reason for bringing up this reading early is that I really couldn't disagree more with that characterization of Jake, who I consider one of the most dynamic and nuanced characters in the cast. I've covered the reasons why extensively on Tumblr and Medium, but we'll be touching on it in video form eventually. We'll be touching on my reading of Pages and Knights pretty soon, as we talk about Xefros in Hiveswap, so hopefully I'll get across my meaning in more detail then!
The Active/Passive scalings refer more to the class's expected role in the story- whether they're driving, or reacting to, events. The Knights we got to see (Including Latula) were all presented with situations and had to either react actively or play along passively- this makes them closer to the center of the grid, but it doesn't change that the knights were still consistently more reactive presences than driving forces.
Noticed how Dave fucking hates himself for actively using time travel and feels much more comfortable using it to help out Jade w/the frogs. Also how Horuss uses void to literally void out Rufioh's breakup.
the only thing I gotta correct you which I'm sure you've already gotten corrected on a ton before in the comments is that the knight and page passive/active thing is switched. pages are a passive class and vice versa for knights. but idk if you had said before that these are your own ideas for the classes. other than this, great video!!!
OD's written quite a bit about that, actually. I used to think the same exact thing until I read it myself. I would find the links to it but I... kind of forgot where they were. Whoops.
They are my own ideas for the classes, but only insofar as that's the reading of them I've gathered from the text. Basically, I lean towards reading Pages as Active because they primarily act for their own benefit, while Knights generally act for the benefit of others. But mostly I feel like it's up for debate, and will adjust my position if Hiveswap makes things clear one way or another. This seems at least possible, if not likely, since Xefros seems to be linked to both Knights and Pages. I have written out my thoughts on this stuff further on Medium and Tumblr, and hopefully the upcoming video on Xefros will stir that particular conversation in earnest here on UA-cam. Glad you enjoyed the video! :B
Honestly if you ask me, Xefros feels... very Page-y. Kind of a doormat -sadly,- the poor kid just hasn't lived to the potential of his own revolutionary aspect... yet.
Sorry, I didn't get a chance to answer you on Tumblr, haha! I don't know that they have one, since they don't really feature in the comic. If I had to hazard a guess, maybe...the Nic?
The way you've defined active and passive you can't have servant as a metaclass. Service is passive and you can't have an active class in a pair defined by being passive.
I disagree, but I can see why you feel that way. It's worth noting that I mostly chose the name "Servant" because I thought it captured the nuance of "Warrior" as well as the more specific symbols of "Civil Servant" or "Butler", but I think it's also pretty effective to use "Warrior" as the Archetype for this pair. I do think it's possible Knight and Page, as a pair, tend toward more Passive behavior. But the reason I set Pages apart as Active here is that they invite others to Serve them rather than exclusively acting as servants themselves, for the Pages' benefit. So Jake inspires Jane, Roxy and Dirk to serve him/help him with stuff, Tavros inspires the same in Terezi, Kanaya, Equius, Aradia, and even Vriska in various ways, and Xefros does so with Dammek and Joey in short order.
im still confused of what my class is. i took the extended zodiac test and got libsces, sign of the enhancer (teal, drese dreamer, and player of life) im not sure if i should take the got tier quiz again (ive taken it a lot because i find this to be fascinating, but every time i take it i get rage as my aspect). i really wish hussie would just give us the answers so we dont have to speculate because the current classes dont seem it enhance anything the way i think. what do you think? (edit: i did the got tier quiz again and got page of life, im fine with that)
Hello, I have always liked your videos and your publications. And I would like to translate them into Spanish so that people who do not know English, but likes of homestuck can see you. Of course, I want your approval first PD: it's too late here, so don't expect a good english grammar and that :")
Why was Condense shown durning The Magicians part? Like Meenah, she's the Thief of Life, not a Witch, who would be Feferi both on Alternia and Beforus. I mean, if I remember correctly, Dirk and Roxy referred to Condescension as "The Batter witch", but she isn't ACTUALLY a Witch This is confusing...
I loved this hunk of the series though im confused as to the consistency of the fan class test as i took the jungian archetype test and recieved the innocent as my true self but taking your friends test i got the prince of the nobility archetype this concerns me( it also concerns me as my aspect test i got aquasci or life 8|)
Haha I mean, I'm not claiming the class test is canonical or particularly based off Jungian archetypes. My understanding is that the modern Pearson model of Archetypes has it's own dedicated testing instrument, but that is in no way it! A friend of mine just happened to be making a new Class test quiz, and I thought people might find it fun while they wait for the canon one :)
Did you mean to have another [Tactical Omission] at 3:38, and just missed that one? Also, I'd like to repeat a request from another commenter on a previous video of yours: consider slowing down the edits, to give the viewer more time to absorb the images being shown and how they relate to your script.
Nope, I just missed it. And good to know that you still felt it was too fast. I'm always trying to get a sense for optimal pacing as I keep making videos, so it's handy to know which way I should be adjusting. Thanks!
And right after I made that comment, I saw where another commenter on this video said they loved the pace, so there clearly seems to be a variety of preferences for speed of presentation.
is there a chart available of the brief descriptions of the classes in this video? like the "does ____ blank for ___"? i really like the ones specifically in this video. if there's one for the aspects, too, please send
I’m still confused to why Heir fits the magician archetype in your opinion. Because Condey’s change of Jane’s role? That doesn’t immediately pair them up
Omitting Muse and Lord? :( That means we'll never get to talk about the 'Invocation to the Muse' or the connections to Classical Mythology and Creation myths.
Maids are associated with being forced into service to their Aspect early on, but successful Maids seem to always overcome that subjugation and free themselves to follow their own pursuits. Porrim talks about that dynamic pretty succintly, if I recall. In other words, for Knights and Pages, service comes naturally to their natures. For Maids it is an obstacle to be overcome, and when embraced, only on their own terms, because of their own desires.
IIIIII have one question, c-can Knights be girls or something. Like in the comic, latula is a Knight but, it is special that latula is a Knight? Or no?
It's not particularly special. According to WoG, gender doesn't actually matter for the Class assignment, so if certain classes tip towards certain genders, that's only a bias.
Awesome, just what I was waiting for. I will say that I'm interested to know where you're getting your list of archetypes, as I didn't see all of them on the list of Jungian archetypes that a quick google gave me. Do you have a paper source I missed in all your video text?
Conveniently, though, I think your video explained exactly the point I was trying to make about Maid and Heir on your last video without actually saying so: Maids and Heirs are both *made of* their Aspect. They Create it, increasing life/health or time/dead people or wind/freedom or obfuscation/non-information in another or the world around them, but they also Become it: John obviously Becomes the wind and Becomes an entity that exists unbound by the material world of the comic. Equius is Made of Void and the narrative and everyone who can manage it deliberately ignores him (except Nepeta who I guess is Giving him some Identity). Aradia is Made of Time and Becomes an embodiment of Thanatos, the process of death that's part of the Time Aspect. Jane is Made of Life and resurrects herself and everything around her just because of what she *is* rather than what she sets out to *do* (which is part of why her character arc is so deeply unsatisfying but oh well). I don't know what you call this archetype, but I contend that Maids and Heirs share it.
(That said, the notion of an Heir as a Magician does resonate with me a lot more now that you've explained them as an inheritor of magical power - like Dungeons & Dragons Sorcerers. That makes John's magician shtick make a lot more sense, especially since he gets a lot of it from a tome inherited from a kinda-sorta-ancestor. I can see roping them in with the Seers/Mages/Witches from that perspective.)
As for Sylphs, I more or less explained why I think they're Passive Witches on the last video. I see Sylphs Manipulating and changing Aspects in others and around them, rather than creating their Aspect in their actual actions in the comic, and Witches and Sylphs live apart from society and are basically Wise Magical Nature Things in stories - along with Seers and Mages which are less slanted toward "lives in a shack/tree" but still tend to live isolated existences apart from society. That's actually a big reason why I don't think Maid and Sylph are the same Archetype: the Maids we see, like the Heirs, all have a very specific place in society, one that they have to either accept or deny over the course of their journey. John feels stifled by his middle class suburbanite "Kid" role and is still unfulfilled in the Credits because he never really found a satisfactory way to grow past it OR accept it. Jane is a multibillionaire Crockercorp heiress and she is completely aware of that, being forced into that role and then, after being freed from it, re-acquiring it and making it her own, accepting it in the most self-actualizing way possible. Aradia is constantly reminded of her place in troll society (mostly by Equius, who is of course 100% committed to his own social role), ignores it, and is ludicrously unhappy until she embraces a *different* role - a mythical one inherited from her Ancestor. Porrim, of course, rejects her role completely, but she never had a shot at fulfilling her destiny, so she takes on the role of educating her successor with aplomb instead. Meanwhile, Sylphs tend to be as apart from society as Witches are. Witches' familiars keep them isolated (Jade's loyalty to Bec, Damara's loyalty to English, and Feferi's duty to Gl'bgoly'b), whereas Sylphs are isolated by a solitary duty (Kanaya) or just isolatingly weird social factors (both Kanaya and Aranea).
Anyway this went on very, very, very long but good video and very educational. I'll save rehashing which is passive between Knight and Page for another day. I honestly think in that case it's just a matter of point of view.
I only very loosely touched on this in the Class video, so it warrants mentioning again. I think Hussie borrowed the *concept* of Archetypes from Jung, but not the Archetypes themselves. That said, I'd say the Classpects most closely resemble the Archetype model of one of Jung's modern successors: Dr. Carol S. Pearson.
She developed a model of 12 Heroic archetypes, meant for both marketing and self-improvement purposes, and you can find descriptions of them on her website: www.carolspearson.com/about/assessments-for-discovering-the-archetypes-active-in-your-life-and-work/
But the Hero Titles differ from those, too. I've drawn these Archetypes, as best I can, from Homestuck itself.
Maid and Sylph are both described/presented as fairies, and Witches and Heirs are both described/presented as Magicians. Which brings me to your pairings of the classes.
See, I think the parallels you're drawing between maid and heir and sylph and witch are, for the most part, very much there. I think it's quite likely the Classes are interwoven and interrelated, just like the Aspects. That said, I think there's some nuances where I disagree with your reading of Maids.
For example, Aradia's depressed and miserable, but not really because of society--she makes it super clear she really doesn't care. Aradia's fatalism stems from her relationship to Time, and the inevitability of the awful time loop they're all caught in.
VERY sweet catch at Aradia embodying the Thanatos instinct, because you're completely correct and I hadn't thought of her that way at all. I'd been linking the Horrorterrors to the Thanatos instinct, which is apt, since it's pretty much stated she's largely under their thrall.
Roleplay also comes into this. Vriska, for example, stresses the verb "Create" and "Make" when she roleplays as Mindfang, who is a Sylph. She MAKES Tavros have happy thoughts, and she creates Bec Noir to claim responsibility for him. Etc.
As for Heirs "becoming" their Aspect, I agree with you that there's overlap. But I'd say John's relationship to that becoming is pretty different from the Fairies' in some key ways. Mostly I'd say John's "becoming" most strongly resembles Jade's. Jade, like John, essentially "Becomes one" with Space, inheriting from Bec the ability to be aware of and teleport to basically all physical locations. John does the same thing with the narrative of the comic, becoming able to teleport anywhere in causality.
There's a bunch of other similarities, but this is quite enough dissertation for one comment, lmao. I've posted links to essays on the subject in the video descriptions of the Class video, as a heads up. Sorry for the long reply!
Thank you again for the reply, and the link! Wow, look at that spirograph flower favicon. You may be on to something here, even if I'm not a big fan of personality tests with that many registered trademarks in the name. I'll have a read, and I'll definitely check out the links on your class video, too. I'm gonna try to address your points briefly just because I misphrased one or two things and then I'm going to let everyone else have their words back. Testing gave me "Rogue of Light" on my first try so I shouldn't just monopolize all the informational analysis and synthesis for myself, probably.
First of all regarding Aradia, you are correct. She doesn't care whether she fits society when she's alive, but she *does* respond to Equius's kinky screwing around with it with (justified) rage, and she's not a real enthusiast about Sburb's assigned role for her either. She's not really 0k with it, is what I'm saying. It's only after their game ends and she god-tiers and *makes* her own role, an explicitly mythic one, that she's happy, and it's like flipping a switch. It took me a long time to understand Aradia since she has such divergent personality presentation, but ultimately it comes down to the fact that she's always put into a role in spite of her wishes early on, and finds fulfillment filling a mythic archetype she actually resonates with.
I'm vaguely with you on Roleplay if only because the narrative goes so far out of its way to talk about it with the trolls (and because we've all gamed with Vriska. You know who I'm talking about.) I guess...I can see Mindfang (and Aranea and Vriska's Mindfang persona) Creating ideas, but all three iterations of this character also heavily emphasize, and I quote verbatim, MANIPUL8ION. That's an inherited, blood-based ability for Vriska, but it's one she inherited *from* the post-Scratch version of the Sylph of Light, and one Aranea herself is a past master at. Aranea's our only god-tier Sylph, so that's really the main thing that points me toward Sylphs as a Manipulation class aside from the connotations of the word connecting it to the Witch.
Finally, I'm beginning to rethink the Becoming thing. Maybe everyone is supposed to become an embodiment of their alignment? All the Light heroes become sources of Light (information, luck), all the Space heroes grow to embody creative potential and/or literal space, Roxy becomes one with the Void when she's got that ring or her snooze on...yeah I'm rethinking this part of my argument, I'll get back to you.
Definitely do! As for the Roleplay stuff, these posts that haven't made their way onto Tumblr yet may clarify my position, and talk about Sylphs a bit, too--particularly Kanaya, but also some of Mindfang's Sylph imagery Through Vriska. Solid point with her focus on Manipul8ion, though, that does give me pause:
revolutionaryduelist.tumblr.com/post/168807489002/live-action-roleplay-and-the-impact-of-ancestors
revolutionaryduelist.tumblr.com/post/168837029462/live-action-roleplay-and-the-impact-of-ancestors
nerdorama009 I just wanted to say I agree about Sylphs being passive witches. At one point Jade asked Kanaya what the difference between the two is, and basically shrugged and said I dunno, I think they're just more magical or something. I interpreted that as meaning passive. So are witches stage 1 active, or stage 3?
I do recall that and that was my initial hint, although I don't usually bring it up as evidence since Kanaya later dismisses that comparison as facetious. Heck for all I know Hussie originally intended Sylphs to be Passive Witches but later swapped them with Heirs. That would explain a lot of the confusion.
I can't speak to tiers of passivity directly because I'm still not super convinced of what Active and Passive mean *exactly*, but I do think that Sylphs would belong to the magical quartet with Witches, Mages, and Seers, and Heirs would belong to the royal quartet with Maids, Princes, and Bards. I guess per oD's chart that would make Sylphs + and Heirs +++, but I'm not 100% confident in that correlation.
Let Kanaya Say [Tactical Omission]
Kanaya the vampire fashion queen
[Tactical Omission]
what a lot of people probably aren't going to tell you is that the VISUAL design of these videos is top notch. i've taken to treating youtube like a podcast site lately for all the value people's visuals add to their visual essays, but i feel like simply listening to your essay instead of also viewing it leaves me lacking a lot of the meaning and quality of the argument. well done.
Thanks a ton! I try pretty hard to make these videos as interesting and layered as possible across the board, so this means a lot to hear :)
With the introduction of *The Ultimate Self* in The Epilogues and in Fast^2 Homestuck^2, I think we're going to see Archetypes becoming much more pronounced in the plot. Actually, I think that The Ultimate Self *is* a connection to one's archetype, and it's where a character becomes such an archetype that they stop being a person. And I think it's the Jungian Archetypes specifically!
The "becoming less of a person" is pretty self-evident, as two of our Ultimate Characters had to become robots just to attain their Ultimate Stage, while the other described how he once was drowning in himself, but then "became the water." Ultimate People aren't as human and real as they used to be, and become extensions of the plot and the story. That's why all three of them abandoned building and maintaining relationships in service of furthering the narrative.
But more than just being agents of the narrative, they fall into their Archetypical roles for the story. Specifically, the 12 Jungian archetypes, and I've got a good idea of which ones:
• Dirk becomes the Ruler, associated with Control. He exerts his influence over the narrative, and has a tendency towards micromanagement. The Ruler is one of three archetypes (Ruler, Artist, and Caregiver) associated with providing structure to the world, and in this way he provides structure to the plot by narrating it. As a Heart player, his role Control manifests as controlling *people themselves.* And as both a ruler and destroyer, his Ultimate Self manifests as a villain. An antagonist. Where once he cared about morality and being a good person and doing right by his friends, he has since given up on all that. Now he's fallen into his role in the story, no longer thinking about his own needs or the needs of others. He's become so fictional that needs don't even register to him like they used to.
• Rose has become the Sage, associated with Knowledge. This meshes well with her class, the Seer, but her class adds an element of Seeing and observing. And while a Ruler focuses on providing structure, a Sage goes on a spiritual journey. A spiritual journey is where one seeks learning or reconciliation through enLightenment, so she's taken the passive role of observation - she watches and Sees, accumulating knowledge. And because Light has to do with relevance, she's observing the events that are most relevant to the plot. She doesn't act or engage; she doesn't struggle with her passive role at all, as she has moves beyond struggle. People struggle, but she is hee Ultimate Self, a machine that serves and observes the plot. Where once she had a wife and a variety of relationships, she abandoned those with her humanity to just... watch the plot go by. She's on a journey, and her journey is just to sit and watch.
• Dave is the Hero, associated with Mastery. We haven't seen Ultimate Dave do much, so we don't know how he'll express Mastery, or how that will interact with his class as a Knight or his aspect of Time. We *do* have a good idea of his role in the story though - he's going to slay the dragon. Kill the monster. Defeat the evil. (He's gonna cut off Dirk's head, y'all.) It wasn't outright stated, but I'm confident that's his goal, and the Hero symbolism has been so strong with him throughout the story that I really can't see him being anything other than a hero.
Anyway, before he Digivolved into Ultimate, Dave was struggling with his sexuality and his unexplored but very requited feelings for Karkat. He was experiencing a human struggle due to his needs and desires. But when he filled his meter and unlocked his Ultimate, that ended. No longer did he struggle with his sexuality. No longer did he struggle with his feelings, wants, or needs. He evolved past struggle.
Which is why he promptly abandoned the timeline to go after Dirk. Even though he didn't question his sexuality, and his feelings no longer caused him conflict, he didn't go to Karkat. He didn't *need* to because love and happiness were no longer things that Davebot yearns for. All he needs now is to further the plot, so he abandoned his timeline and chased after Dirk. Rather than provide structure or go on a spiritual journey, a Hero wants to leave their mark. And being a Hero with an antagonist in front of him, I know how he plans on doing that.
• Although we didn't get any direct confirmation that jade!Calliope is her Ultimate Self, I kinda want to consider it, just in case. The strongest archetype for her would be the Creator, or the Artist, due to her artistic skill. Much like the Ruler, the Artist is known for providing structure, and this can be seen in how Calliope gives the story structure by narrating, allowing the readers to engage with it. And as a Muse, she fits well with the Artist. However, the Artist's keyword is innovation, and she doesn't actively innovate at all - in fact she makes it her duty to *not* innovate, and tries not to interfere with the plot at all. But perhaps it's her Musehood and Spaceyness that come into play here - a Muse is the most passive class, after all, so perhaps she is instead inviting others to innovate in her place. And Space, being the aspect of the setting and the world, is demonstrated in how she's more willing to interfere with the setting than with the characters - like when she tried to get Dirk with collapsing rubble. It also kind of shows itself in how, in the Candy timeline (which she had to herself) the setting and worldbuilding became more interesting. There were rebellions, wars, empires, and a great hole in the sky (a direct result of Calliope's actions) that ghosts were falling through. Her presence, however inactive she may have been, made the setting vastly more unique and innovative than it was in her absence. But also... she was isolated and uncaring. She didn't seek out companionship, and barely registered Aradia's presence. She also didn't care much about anything beyond the plot and her power struggle with Dirk (though there were some cute moments with her supporting the other Calliopes, but her feelings were very quiet and unpronounced, and these moments stood out for their unusual moments of characterness, which contrasted Calliope's usual removed personality.)
I'm sort of just spitballing here, but so far I think it checks out. Now I'm gonna go see if i can predict who's next to use their Ult by looking at the Jungian archetypes.
Best end of the Year Gift EVER!!!
Perfect way to end the year: listen to nerd talk. -not sarcastic I seriously love this-
Okay, but this video did seriously help me with a struggle I had with my results on my EZodiac test. I got Scoro/Sagio, the blueblood, Dersitian Heart player signs, but I still felt I should've gotten Rage, since Rage players are those seeking the truth, and will seek to tear down those systems that defy it-- not that Heart doesn't fit, and I don't do everything _merely_ for the truth, but I do rather seek to take down old, antiquated ways of thinking, and methods of living, and all that, something that ties into my beliefs-- which also fits the role of the royalty/destructive classes.
Fuck.
I'm a Prince of Heart, son of a bitch, I can't escape having a lot in common with Dirk no matter how hard I try.
That's a good problem to have. Dirk's a good kid :B
A good kid with a ton of potential to end up really bad, from what we know so far.
But also good. >:]
I'm a prince to but of void not heart .
@@optimisticDuelist Hey oD, now that you've read the epilogues do you have anything to say about that comment you made a year back
@@safourgardpa5459 I second this
I think a lot of the specifics on the archetypes given (like witches being linked to familiars) is likely true but the way it's described it sounds more like a mechanic rather than the prophecy that is laid out by an aspect. From your description it sounded like Witches have familiars because they are a witch, and therefore they have some kind of animal embodiment of their power, when it would make more sense with the prophetic nature of the titles for witches to just happen to have them. (I know that isn't really easy to say and be brief for this introduction I'm just saying.)
Also, your description on why Pages are active and Knights are active makes a lot of sense. I always figured we just didn't know enough about either to make a judgement since all we really knew from direct statements in the comic were that Pages have a lot of untapped potential that takes a long time to access. Not doing much for a long time but having a powerful profound impact on the world sounds passive, but developing that potential could be considered active. I think framing it more in the selfish vs selfless way you did makes a lot more sense.
One last thing, I think a lot of what you say about the Royals makes sense for the Princes and I guess Cronos too, but to Gamzee? It seemed like he was more of an uncaring agent of chaos and servant to Lord English than someone performing actions out of extreme hubris. I like Tex Talks' interpretation that his character loses faith in "the plot" and so he allows and furthers the decay of the story. His actions don't seem selfish or focused on the benefit of himself and so I don't really think his trollicide is really him adopting an active role either.
On a side note I like how in the same way that the magic-y classes are related to the scientific method, the comic itself constantly struggles with whether or not magic just just magic or a form of science. Much of Homestuck likes to toy with two opposites coexisting in reality, like how two seemingly contradictory thoughts can both exist.
Odd, I think UA-cam ate my second, much longer reply.
1) I understand the criticism that these descriptions seem overly mechanical, and it makes more sense that witches "Just Happen" to have their familiars. I think that's true, in a way, but I guess I regard the situation as a kind of paradox. The Witches are Witches because of who they are, and who they are is in many ways shaped by their Familiars as a constant force in their lives. And they have those familiars in the first place because they fit into the archetype of the Witch.
Jung considered the Archetypes as sorts of base templates or platonic ideals of individuals, and I think that's what we see with the Classes, basically. Feferi, Jade, and Damara all share these key symbolic images in common, as does anyone who chooses to adopt the role of the Witch with enough fervor, such as Rose. (I've written further on Rose's Witch roleplay here: revolutionaryduelist.tumblr.com/post/168876986437/so-when-rose-went-grimdark-she-was-role-playing-a )
2) As for Gamzee, the key takeaway for me is less about extreme hubris and more about his status as explicit Royalty. Both Fuschiabloods--Meenah and Feferi-- abdicate their thrones, renouncing royal status. That leaves the violetbloods and the purplebloods as the only castes with a claim to aristocratic/noble birth, and they seem to be linked in a traditional seadweller/landweller rivalry.
The Mirthful Messiahs also worship Lord English and, according to Porrim, are the actual shadow rulers of Alternia and Beforus, since ultimately it's LE and DS who are the boss, not the Empress. Hence, Gamzee's destruction is linked to his highblood status.
More writing on that subject here: ( revolutionaryduelist.tumblr.com/post/166199070732/unifying-myths-princebard-royalty )
And finally, I agree Gamzee's not behaving selfishly in his Prince roleplay---rather, I think he's switching verb uses. Where a Bard "Invites destruction" passively, a Prince simply destroys, and Gamzee definitely destroys pretty actively during his horrorstuck binge. He's also incredibly unstable, as makes sense for a very Passive class roleplaying a very Active one.
More on that here: revolutionaryduelist.tumblr.com/post/168837029462/live-action-roleplay-and-the-impact-of-ancestors
Thanks for the thoughtful comment! :B
Actually, Gamzee's hubris could be seen in his servitude to Lord English.
During horrorstruck, he says; (TC: AS A DESCENDANT OF THE HIGH MOTHERFUCKIN SUBJUGGLATORS.
TC: we are higher than you, brother.
TC: WE ARE HIGHER THAN MOTHERFUCKIN EVERYBODY.)
This actually shows us that in his head, being a Subjugglator, a servant of Lord English, makes him superior to everyone else.
And as we see in Game Over, he has no problem killing Karkat, someone who he was once Morails with, and even does it with a smile, as if Karkat was merely a pest. He does everything out of loyalty to Lord English (And that servitude is what allows him to claim to be superior to everyone).
Gamzee is a servant to Lord English, but that is also his hubris.
This came in such a good time omg, time to enjoy
as a page of light ive always thought of my class as passive, but seeing it explained like this made me see it in a different perspective
Holy crap this is so dense. I can’t wait to rewatch this 20 more times : )
i love that “[Tactical Omission]” bleep-out lol
this helped me in a dnd campaign just now
so my friend wanted to be a homebrew troll race and used an extended zodiac symbol for his character
he was life derse and we used his spells in dnd (warlock) to deduce he would be a heir
so we have a heir of life along with an asgurdian sorcerer and a dragonborn fighter.
so thank you for posting this video
This is so frustrating. I've been trying to figure out what I am for years, but every time I end up with something different. A lot of classes have descriptions that apply to me and the same goes for aspects.
Yes princes are arrogant sometimes but my friend has called princes that are able to control them selves "healthy princes" as the "unhealthy" ones are the ones that have little or no control over their actions
I am a prince of blood and you handled princes and bards accurately I'm just inserting some of my experience with this
I hadn't really thought about the visual parallels among classes before this. It's nifty and it could eventually help sort out a solid schema of the classes relations to one another, but I'm not sure I'm entirely comfortable leaning on it without having all of those mirrored panels in front of me. The first thing I googled came up with flipped images of Dream Jade and Aradia Bot smacking the shit out of their respective Heirs. I don't know what relation between Witches and Maids that might reflect, so it's not terribly useful on it's own.
With twelve classes/aspects and with astrological concepts in play, I feel a dodecagon is the most natural way to visualize the relations between them. The problem being that there are so many uncertain variables and possible relations that it's hard to say where any one piece of information fits.
I can't believe I missed this comment somehow! It's worth noting that, while visual parallelism is indeed useful, it does not account for my entire approach when it comes to figuring this stuff out. I came to my views by looking at the Classpects from lots of angles--in particular stressing the search for the unknown classes' Key Verbs, and exclusive referencing.
This gets pretty complicated when taking roleplay into account, but it gets simpler if you try to track how successful a character is at achieving a task in relation to an Archetype, or how happy they are while adopting said Archetype as a persona.
For example: Contrast Kanaya and Tavros during Act 5, in their respective attempts to be "Fairy God Trolls" as they attempt to act as Patron Trolls for Rose and Jade, respectively. Only Kanaya succeeds at this, however--Tavros fails at being Jade's patron troll and ends up replaced by Karkat instead.
Furthermore, during Kanaya's pesterlog, she mentions using the Alchemiter to *Make* Eridan a magic wand, referencing both her key verb and Sylph's "magical" nature. Tavros' pesterlog is the one where he attempts to imitate Vriska to some extent, and he's influenced by her at a time when she herself is roleplaying a Sylph quite intensely.
The difference between Kanaya and Tavros is that Kanaya succeeds when linked to fairydom. Vriska is arguably successful at being a fairy in some ways, but only with intensely negative consequences--her biggest act of successful creation is...making Bec Noir. So. Yeah.
To boot, Vriska is both unhappy with herself for being unable to be a Sylph, and so desensitized to her own feelings and natural desires in her intense that she's pretty much delusional. While not directly, a lot of that self-delusion comes from her subsuming her self-image in Mindfang's, which is why she experiences such a crisis when confronted with that delusion from the outside in Aranea--a Sylph who becomes inspired to act like a Thief.
Examples like this one litter the story, and I am not entirely sure I'm doing this one justice here. But I wanted to give it a crack and try to express how I approach the text.
Do you view these instances of cross class roleplay as distinct from more inversion-y behavior? If so, do you find that they point towards a different relation between the classes than the active/passive pairings or the direct opposition of inversion?
For clarity, I'm not behind BKEW level over-applied (nega-god-tier) inversion theory. However, with with all the other Jungian influences and some really substantial examples in the text, I read it as Homestuck's way of handling the idea of the shadow self. Uncomfortable traits/tendencies/roles that must be acknowledged, reconciled, and utilized in the course of self actualization; but manifest most overtly in unhealthy situations where self actualization is frustrated or subverted.
So with that said what do we make of the patron troll situations?
Kanaya makes it work to the best of her abilities. Though it could be argued that giving Rose Space wasn't a great strategy.
Tavros gets plays the role, he just sucks at it. He comes off as a fairy for a bit and saves Jade's life, but he also kills her dad. (A mark for Thief/Rogue/whatever of Blood depending on how the class relations shake out)
Vriska's fairy god troll efforts are all very Thief of Light as far as I can recall. Taking the spotlight as Tex Talks puts it. Her Fairy interactions with Tavros are a bit tragic because with that as her basic nature there's no way that she can give him relevance.
Terezi's trolling almost too convenient from a classpect analysis perspective. Seer v Witch is the already the most/only substantial inversion we see and the first thing she does is indulge a stupid impulse, take advantage of John's trusting nature, and create a doomed timeline that spits out Davesprite and some alt-self memories for Rose. Then her interactions with Dave are more or less in line with her natural classpect.
With Karkat there's so much material that I'm not sure I have anything I want to say bad enough to put that on the table. Not that I'd mind if you have any points you'd like to make about him. It's just that I'm not eager to dig through all that much shouty text to fact check myself when there are easier things to chat about.
I've been staring at this for way too long now and I don't know if there's any end point I wanted to make. I'd just delete it but I figure even if it's not entirely coherent it's more likely to contain something of interest for you than no post at all.
I think the classes are framed as existential complements--Fairies and Royals have contrasting verbs, etc. So my model is pretty similar to BKEW's, except that I think "Serve" better contrasts "Steal", and of course I flip the Knight/Page alignments. I'm not confident this covers all the nuance in the scale, but I think it's good enough to work with until I've got a more firm grasp on canon's intent as to exactly what the scale is.
That said, I don't really think "Inversion Theory" as such is a part of the story. I think Aspect "inversions" happen pretty often in Homestuck, and usually the Aspect "Switch" is to a complementary Aspect.
But that doesn't seem to be a hard rule, and Hiveswap complicates the system considerably. Xefros is a Rage player, but in Act 1 thinks largely in terms of Time. And Joey is linked to Light and Life, above and beyond other Aspects.
More importantly, though, I think Aspect shifts happen as a result of characters strongly embracing or being forced into roles that aren't true to their own natures. So Roleplay is the cause, and Aspect "inversion" or "switching" is the effect, in many ways.
I don't think Rose ends up acting as a Witch because Witches happen to be the natural inverse of a Seer.
I think she ends up acting like a Witch because she's emulating her Mom--who it's noted Rose doesn't really understand--and trying to take power by living out her interest in Wizards and magic.
The emphasis isn't on the pairs as natural opposites that one will automatically "switch" to if distressed enough, but rather on the ways that role models/stories/archetypal images come into the minds of and affect the individual player.
You're right that Vriska is still a Thief of Light through and through, even in the midst of roleplay.
I view roleplay more like the characters "adding" roles rather than switching--the player's core tendencies and instincts always shine through, and that means that depending on their original Class, the characters will have different affinities/degrees of success at roleplaying other Classes.
"Stealing" is a pretty different behavior from "Making", and Vriska proves thoroughly ineffective at the latter as a result. Contrast with a case like Eridan, who is already a highly Active destroyer, roleplaying an active Witch class and channeling his destructive tendencies into magic that he...only uses to destroy.
Eridan adopts the role and the behavior (he changes his own mind about what constitutes "Hope" in the session, to his own benefit), and though he's undoubtedly more effective at the mimicry than Vriska, his core instincts still shine through.
So Rose is still acting like a Seer as she roleplays a Witch--sending boys on quests, writing and delivering prophetic texts, etc. To boot, since she's forcing herself to behave more Actively, she's occasionally referenced as a Mage, too--"fakeMage pinkscarf", etc. Just like Vriska, her core classpect isn't removed due to embracing the Witch role--it's only complicated.
Similarly, I think there's a stronger argument that Terezi is roleplaying a Knight, not a Witch--she internalizes the image of a Knight from Redglare, takes an interest in Knight players as a rule, and is put in a positon to echo both Dave (in Seer: Ascend) and Redglare (in taking down Mindfang at the GHB's request) when she works to bring Vriska to justice.
PHEW, this was a lot. Sorry! I'm really looking forward to exploring these closer case studies in more accessible video form one by one, so I got a bit excited when you asked, haha :D
So there's one bit in particular here that I'd like to prod at because I feel like making it explicit makes any analysis of classpects easier. None of this is really causal within the narrative. Given the flexibility of the aspects and all of the powerful artifacts in the game, a character with no particular background or predisposition could theoretically do anything regardless of their hero title. The hero titles and their extended interpretations are kinda like patterns predicting what a character's roles and manifestations of power will be without actually constraining them. SBURB grants the titles, quests, powers, etc. that give the base classpects in-world significance, but I take all the extensions as meta-narrative.
Homestuck can be awfully committed to its meta-narrative so I find inversion appealing as another pretty pattern.
Doc Scratch doesn't manipulate Rose to get her to act as an X of Void. Doc Scratch manipulates Rose and from the outside we see an interesting relation between how that plays out and her Skaia ordained role.
I look forward to your video on roleplaying. Even if there's not a consistent pattern in what classes roleplay one another, the examples sound nifty.
This is genuinely spectacular work
I've been struggling with 1 thing: The Passivity/Activity of the Heir/Witch Class pairing. As "One who Changes ____", I find that using the definition of "self-directed change" for active changer, and "other-directed change" for the passive changer, we have more examples in canon of the Heirs changing themselves directly (John Egbert literally changing his body into Breath, Mituna Captor changing his own fate by dooming himself to save his party, Equius Zahhak changing his corporeality and turning into Void) and of Witches changing their aspects for everybody else's benefit (Jade Harley changing locations and scale to save others' planets and session, Feferi changing the way that Life works by inciting the Horrorterrors to grant dead players Dream Bubbles to reside in, Damara Megido aiding in the establishment of the Grand Alpha Time Loop that is the Birth of Lord English, which deeply affects how others experience Time). Maybe my definitions of Active & Passive classes is wrong, but currently, that is what seems to make sense. I will acknowledge that Heirs seem to transition in a more Passive role towards late-game, when they change their aspect to save others (John using freedom from the narrative to rewrite events and change the canon, Mituna's act of self-sacrifice also saved his party from Doom), but I don't think that is because the Heir is a Passive class, but instead that the self-directed changes that Heirs engage with tend to affect others by proxy. What do you think?
so this popped up in my recommended and i am pleasantly surprised
Pretty cool my dude! All of these videos are fantastic
Please tell me you wrote this down in a script form and posted it somewhere, this is too informative to just have on video format!
Pretty much all this stuff is written down in some way on Medium or Tumblr, yeah. I went ahead and added links to the basic arguments for the Archetypes to the description of this video. Hope you enjoy!
Thanks for the late present of this year
Always a pleasure!
I know my question will mostly likely not be answered, but there’s no harm in asking
So when you say that mage and seers perform “miracles” what exactly does that entail? Does that mean a mage/seer of light could perform a miracle and get the ultimate roll of luck ? Or a mage of hope performing a miracle that literally brings there hopes and dreams into existence?
The term miracle is so broad and vast it could mean a lot of things
And is the miracle done through magic or by sheer will power, or both ?
This is a good question! I was asked this on Tumblr as well, so I'll copy paste my answer from there:
I tried to express this point back in the Force & Flow essays, but I’m not sure I succeded, so I’m glad for the chance to revisit it! I think I can answer your first question with the second. The range of a “miracle” is essentially the same as the range of “magic”, a concept that canonically applies to Heirs, Witches, Maids and Sylphs.
image
EB: how do you know about jegus? do you even know what that is?
AG: I have no idea! It's something Terezi has 8een saying non stop for some reason.
AG: It is weirdly infectious.
AG: What is it, some sort of human profanity?
EB: no. well, yeah kind of.
EB: it is a misspelling of an adult male bearded human, who was magic.
Jesus’ story is imported into Homestuck in the story of the Signless-a Seer.
When Jesus comes up, John describes him as magic-just as he later describes himself, Jade, and Rose in the midst of her Witch roleplay. (And yes, this does mean the Jegus meme had a payoff in the form of classpect exposition.)
image
DAVE: (arent you magic or something)
DAVE: (are you still magic or is your superpower now just talking a lot and wearing orange)
DAVE: (why dont you use your magics to wake her up)
DAVE: (arent you kinda curious to talk to her)
DAVE: (like find out what her deal is)
ROSE: (Yes.)
ROSE: (But I don't think I know that spell.)
DAVE: (hey what even is magic anyway)
DAVE: (like are spells real like when you do magic are you actualy doing legit spells like the dipshits in harry potter)
DAVE: (babbling up some false baloney ass latin)
ROSE: (Not really?)
DAVE: (i knew it what a load of shit that all is)
ROSE: (What?)
DAVE: (spells and shit)
ROSE: (Um. Ok?)
Later on, Rose seems to more or less figure out how to roleplay a wizard. But when Dave thinks to ask, she makes it clear what she’s doing isn’t exactly casting spells in the typical sense.
Which makes sense, because Prophets aren’t typically thought of as being magic per se. If you think about it, the miracles Jesus performs aren’t really that different from what we might imagine wizards could do.
What makes them different is a matter of emphasis. Wizards are regularly linked to knowledge, just like prophets are. Hence the concept of the “wizard’s spellbook”. But for magicians, knowledge is typically a means to an end, it’s an answer to “how” the magic is performed.
Prophets also do magic, but for them the emphasis is on the knowledge itself as opposed to the spellbook. A Prophet like Jesus or Moses would typically claim their magic wouldn’t happen at all, but for their faith in and knowledge of their divine Source-God.
Just trade in the figure of “God” for the Seer/Mage’s Aspect (the Aspects are inherently divine-coded anyway, given that they’re basically Aeons), and there you go. Any kind of magic you can think of a Prophet doing through their Aspect is something I believe reasonably falls under their purview.
I’d simply put just as much of an emphasis on what the Prophet might end up saying as a result of their Aspect’s influence, which is probably even more interesting. Do their prophecies concern/affect/benefit primarily themselves or others? How does their Aspect influence what message they have to give, and how they deliver it?
A particular nuance to the pair might be a penchant for resurrections/raising others from the dead, particularly in ways that might otherwise seem impossible. Sollux pulls this off for himself by half-ghosting, while Terezi pulls it off for Vriska by guiding John’s choices.
Hopefully this helps? Let me know what you think!
Haha, yeah that was me on tumblr as well. I honestly didn’t think you would answer the question, so I also asked it here. But still thanks so much for the explanation ^w^
I always interpreted seer and mage classes to the next impact.
Seer:use the reality to know their aspect.
Mage:use their aspect to know reality.
When I say reality I mean their knowledge,perspective,direction and goal,seer choose option to move with reality,mage make their own option and see were their leave them.
This is amazing, keep it up!
So, I suppose I'm a Derse Sylph of Time.
I've been mulling over all of the roles for a while, trying to figure out where I was. Passive, Active, Knight Prince, etc.
But, when we came to the fairy types, and it was explained that they are, basically bipolar, I realized I'm a Sylph. Because Maid is a female only class, Sylph is inevitably where I fall. One who makes Time, or makes through Time, for others.
This... sings to how I spend so much time TRYING to entertain others. Through UA-cam. Through Voice Acting. And though my intentions can sometimes feel selfish, as I worry for my own future, inevitably, my objective is to make others happy regardless of that.
I have been attempting to find myself a proper classpect for a good amount of time now. I believe myself to be a Time player, as I hold many of the traits described on the Extended Zodiac for the aspect. I also have found myself drawn torwards characters in the comic under the aspect (Dave and Aradia in particular), although I'm unsure whether that matters. However, I also have several traits of a Space player. I'm rather creative and compassionate, and, despite the fact that I can barely work without it, I am not very good at making music (that's not a Spacey trait, just the lack of a Time trait). I have a tendancy to completely and totally "destroy" my own time by packing my schedule very tightly. Despite this, I don't steal or destroy anybody else's time, as I am very seldom late. I don't believe myself a Prince or Bard due to the fact that I'm a more flexible person when it comes to being active or passive, and I am not particularly arrogant. Please help.
I identify under the sign of Aquaries, sign of the Heroic, if that helps at all.
"This video does not cover the Lord and Muse."
Me: BUT I AM A MUSE... of life...
This is just me trying to classpect my friends
The fact that i fail at determining such thing with decent accuracy suggests i´m not a seer
Did u succeded?
great as always!
huh, this is a different take. feels pretty well thought out
7:53 did I here that right??? (Also, great video, I love your channel)
Yes, you heard that right.
"This video doesn't cover the master classes, lord and muse"
Right off the bat that leaves me in the lurch... I'm a guy, but personality tests seem to insist... I'm a muse...
And I'm a mind aspect so naturally I'm going a bit nuts over the potential implications of this.
CONTEXT: I took the extended zodiac quiz and was labeled Aquaza, the politic. (Aquarius, dersite, Mind aspect). I then took a very in depth personality quiz and it placed me in the most passive class on the spectrum, the Muse. However, Muse is reserved for women only, so unless I want to take a step WAY off center, I can't have a class even CLOSE to the one I seem to match (Next step up the passive/active scale stands in DRASTIC power contradiction one way or the other)
kankri is a seer which is a female class, there is nothing to worry about
Sylph of Rage
I'm gonna agree with eI here. Word of God on the matter is that gender isn't really a block here, and I myself am finding myself flirting with Maid as much as Mage, lately.
That said, I do have plenty of writing on Lord and Muse out there, if you're interested. It was just too much to cram into this little video, since Calliope and Caliborn's classpects impact my reading of...literally every single page of Homestuck, and explaining why would have ballooned this video's length.
If you ask me, gender is at best a bias in class assignment, not an absolute. I also think Calliope was projecting quite a bit when she described gender assignments, since she's very focused on her own female-ness as a way to distance herself from Caliborn, just has he focused on his male-ness as a way to distance himself from her. And to generally be a tool.
Yep! It's also worth noting that Homestuck challenges biological essentialism at every step. Lots of characters grapple with different kinds of "limits" they believe are placed on them or others by their inherent biology, and especially in the endgame, Homestuck makes it a point to knock those preconceptions down.
The Hemospectrum is the most obvious example, but there's also all the struggles with LGBT identity among the human cast, or John realizing he can experience black romance, or Calliope herself assuming she "can't" feel Red romance emotions because of her species, and then ending up with Roxy.
Calliope, like everyone else in the cast, makes assumptions about biological sex and what it determines about your potential. So I'd say say there's canonical grounding for the idea that she was misunderstanding Classpects in this specific regard.
I find classpects very interesting, when i was a child i most likely was a heir or hope, which got twisted as i grew because of reasons (still a hope player) and my powers were clear, or at least the passive effect on people. I once had a physical manifestation of the powers: one time i was close to death literal angels helped me, i did not see them (eyes closed) but i felt their tiny hands and then an actual adult-sized angel which i saw but i cant remember any details of them (such as face) getting me out of the situation, they were all gone once i was fine and i wasnt weirded out by that for some reason (or i dont remember being weirded out).
I said this to say that classpects not only mean personalities but also true powers, may them be just passive or actually physical at times, though the second rare it -aparently- exists.
There also are powers that are explicit, controlable or not, for example: a doom/heart person that can interact with ghosts in some way
(Now, this doesnt mean all doom/hearts players are able to, and those players might not be the ones that can irl, i know one person that can interact with ghosts but just because they were slightly famous in my country, i do not know their classpect and im mostly theorizing but i guess you can get the point)
Despite how much information on the classes I read, I find it particularly frustrating as to which one resonates most with me. A majority of them hold traits that resemble my thoughts and behaviors. I feel like I'm looking for an answer that doesn't exist. Same goes for the aspects.
I got muse of hope as a prospit dreamer. No video so far has actually described what muse means. Ahhhh
Great video!
well, I am curious now
What´s your classpect and how does it define you?
Example.
i´m a Mage of Blood, I know, and know through blood
My conection with others helps me learn, grow as a person and upping my funcionality as a person with asperger, all my life has been that way and i don´t plan to stop learning
Aye, im a MoB too
I have asperger's too. I am a page of light. I am not sure if the role is active or passive. It may depend on the context. But i know that my personal growth seemed to be slower than other people in many settings (social, school and self-growth ) But manage to find a lot of untapped potential in my capacities as a late bloomer. On my light aspect I also am able to have knowledge that no other people are able to see because i had to take other path in life than everyone takes to be able to reach my potential. I worked a lot on myself in my life to have what everyone seemed to have, but it made me open minded to see alternate possibilities to gain growth and knowledge. Seeing the angle other people does not see.
I love to think I'm a Seer/Maid of Space.
Seers learn passively just as me:I love knowledge and learning new things,but almost always just wait for it to happen,without actually searching myself. I feel connection to Space,cuz I'm planning to be a medstudent,love science and art ,fashion and drawings are my great passion. Seer's prime contest is to become a master nerd in their aspect and I love the idea I can be super smart in biology ,lmao. I feel connected to Maids as they're known to start off as passive and too relying on others,so that hits me there.
I also strongly relate to Rogue of Light as I'm WAY too lucky irl.
Dude I just discovered your channel but holy hell it's amazing. The ammount of detail and depth you go into discussing Homestuck is incredible, and even a Homestuck veteran like myself learns something new with each of your videos, which should both tell you the true depths of Homestuck and how informative and throught out your videos are. Great content mate, keep up the HS content for all of those still rolling around in this grey-body-paint-stained trash can that we call home! (because we're stuck here :p)
I've seen people describe the page as someone who serves/serves through [aspect] for themselves, yet call the page passive, also theres the assumption that passive=weak (extremely wrong) similarly they describe knights as ones who use [aspect] for others yet still call them active
Good job!
By watching all three parts, I've determined that I'm either a Seer of Hope or a Page of Heart... it's awfully hard to tell. I'll probably just take the aspect and class tests as a tiebreaker. Or watch some of you HSL videos that I sawa bout a page of heart and a seer of hope.
MY TRANSLATION IS FINALLY OUT, YEAH
tem alguns erros ortográficos e comi umas letras, vou ver se corrijo
So I had a shower thought this morning in regards to Heirs as Passive Manipulators and Sylphs as Passive Creators: gender bias. Prefacing this with a reminder that I think Calliope's thoughts on class-gender-bias are colored heavily by her own personal views on gender and how she and Caliborn identify as opposites of each other, that doesn't mean it's not a valid way to compare classes.
Specifically what I thought of is that the Creation classes are obviously opposite of Destruction classes, right? And in Calliope's assessment, both Prince and Bard are classes with a heavy if not exclusive "male" bias. So it would make sense that the Creation classes are ones with a heavy if not exclusive "female" bias, which fits both Maid and Sylph as we see in the comic, but *not* Heir.
It's circumstantial evidence and relies on something I consider unreliable narration, but Hussie *does* love his symmetry. Between this and mentally equating "Heir" to "D&D Sorcerer" as you do, I am now pretty much on the edge between my initial view of Heir and Sylph vs. yours.
that was so much, it was too much "brain explodes"
The only thing I think you got wrong is the part about all knights trying to get their teammates to trust them. Karkat only did that because he was a knight of the blood aspect. Apart from that, great video!
Latula spends most of her energy on supporting Mituna, and Dave definitely takes responsibility for his friends' well-being. I agree Karkat takes a particular focus on relationships as the Blood player, but it's explicitly stated that Latula puts up her "R4D G1RL" persona for others' benefit, and Dave similarly uses his cool kid persona to teach John stuff/get people to let him help them with stuff. The emphasis isn't necessarily on trust in terms of leadership, like Karkat. It's more about making themselves seem independent and capable, capacities they devote to benefit others often.
Oh yeah, I didn't consider that, sorry.
what would be a familiar for a Witch if Heart? I realized that this fits me more than Witch of Breath and having a second me makes more sense loOOL
okay now I wanna be a Maid hHHHH
a bEAR since bears are used as emotional support and love
They actuslly fit
Awesome video,OptimisticDuelist,I really enjoy your videos,but I want to add something about godtier system.
I don't know if you know,but actually god tier system or something very similar to it was taken from a novel called "Lord of Light" by Roger Zelazny.Where are aspects too,but main characters use attributes instead of classes. Here is a link en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_Light, I just want to hear your opinion,and sorry about my bad English if I wrote something wrong,I'm not english speaking.
Wow, this is fascinating. I definitely see the parallels here, but I'm not sure if that's because Homestuck borrows from this book in particular or if it's because both works draw on similar sources. The control of resources/knowledge/technology and the search for freedom/enlightenment are both fairly universal quests in mythology, after all! Stargate has a somewhat similar plot as well, with Egyptian deities taking on the antagonistic role as opposed to Hindu ones.
I will definitely, definitely be checking this book out though--if Homestuck ever references it in canon, it could represent another breakthrough in understanding the comic, so I always look into leads like this one. Thanks a ton, this is awesome!
I'm very glad if it helped you, and thank you very much for such great videos, I find them interesting and easy understandable.
I agree with how you paired the classes together, but I don’t see how a Knight can be a passive class. In the comic, you see Dave exploiting his aspect of time to preserve himself via time warping. Furthermore, he is in more of a combat-centric role, which makes him active as a result. On the contrary, Jake as a Page shows the opposite once he started the game. He does not actively use his aspect’s powers unlike Dave. Essentially, Jake was inert until Aranea unlocked his potential. Dave already tapped into his powers alone. Overall, Knights in real life tend to be in the front lines fighting (active) whereas Pages assist the Knight with trivial duties such as armor maintenance (passive). It appears that Knights are active classes and Pages are passive classes.
It's worth mentioning that I considered Knights Active for a pretty long time, and still think it's somewhat debatable. My biggest reason for bringing up this reading early is that I really couldn't disagree more with that characterization of Jake, who I consider one of the most dynamic and nuanced characters in the cast. I've covered the reasons why extensively on Tumblr and Medium, but we'll be touching on it in video form eventually. We'll be touching on my reading of Pages and Knights pretty soon, as we talk about Xefros in Hiveswap, so hopefully I'll get across my meaning in more detail then!
The Active/Passive scalings refer more to the class's expected role in the story- whether they're driving, or reacting to, events. The Knights we got to see (Including Latula) were all presented with situations and had to either react actively or play along passively- this makes them closer to the center of the grid, but it doesn't change that the knights were still consistently more reactive presences than driving forces.
Noticed how Dave fucking hates himself for actively using time travel and feels much more comfortable using it to help out Jade w/the frogs. Also how Horuss uses void to literally void out Rufioh's breakup.
Sylph of Heart.
the only thing I gotta correct you which I'm sure you've already gotten corrected on a ton before in the comments is that the knight and page passive/active thing is switched. pages are a passive class and vice versa for knights. but idk if you had said before that these are your own ideas for the classes. other than this, great video!!!
prince oliver thats only a popular fanon theory, it hasnt been confirmed
twiinapocalyp2e2
*silently waits till Hussie reveals the classes*
OD's written quite a bit about that, actually. I used to think the same exact thing until I read it myself. I would find the links to it but I... kind of forgot where they were. Whoops.
They are my own ideas for the classes, but only insofar as that's the reading of them I've gathered from the text. Basically, I lean towards reading Pages as Active because they primarily act for their own benefit, while Knights generally act for the benefit of others. But mostly I feel like it's up for debate, and will adjust my position if Hiveswap makes things clear one way or another. This seems at least possible, if not likely, since Xefros seems to be linked to both Knights and Pages.
I have written out my thoughts on this stuff further on Medium and Tumblr, and hopefully the upcoming video on Xefros will stir that particular conversation in earnest here on UA-cam. Glad you enjoyed the video! :B
Honestly if you ask me, Xefros feels... very Page-y. Kind of a doormat -sadly,- the poor kid just hasn't lived to the potential of his own revolutionary aspect... yet.
good video duelist but what is the waste and gent class Archetypes
Sorry, I didn't get a chance to answer you on Tumblr, haha! I don't know that they have one, since they don't really feature in the comic. If I had to hazard a guess, maybe...the Nic?
ok
The way you've defined active and passive you can't have servant as a metaclass. Service is passive and you can't have an active class in a pair defined by being passive.
I disagree, but I can see why you feel that way. It's worth noting that I mostly chose the name "Servant" because I thought it captured the nuance of "Warrior" as well as the more specific symbols of "Civil Servant" or "Butler", but I think it's also pretty effective to use "Warrior" as the Archetype for this pair.
I do think it's possible Knight and Page, as a pair, tend toward more Passive behavior. But the reason I set Pages apart as Active here is that they invite others to Serve them rather than exclusively acting as servants themselves, for the Pages' benefit. So Jake inspires Jane, Roxy and Dirk to serve him/help him with stuff, Tavros inspires the same in Terezi, Kanaya, Equius, Aradia, and even Vriska in various ways, and Xefros does so with Dammek and Joey in short order.
aquapio with the knight of space. dats meeeeeeee
im still confused of what my class is. i took the extended zodiac test and got libsces, sign of the enhancer (teal, drese dreamer, and player of life)
im not sure if i should take the got tier quiz again (ive taken it a lot because i find this to be fascinating, but every time i take it i get rage as my aspect). i really wish hussie would just give us the answers so we dont have to speculate because the current classes dont seem it enhance anything the way i think.
what do you think?
(edit: i did the got tier quiz again and got page of life, im fine with that)
just wanted to let you know that the link you have for the Steal/Serve duos links to the Create and Destroy page.
Whoooops!!! Thanks for the sweet catch, it's updated now :D
Hello, I have always liked your videos and your publications. And I would like to translate them into Spanish so that people who do not know English, but likes of homestuck can see you. Of course, I want your approval first
PD: it's too late here, so don't expect a good english grammar and that :")
From reading the comics is it true Hussie said there is no gendered class other than master classes?
Why was Condense shown durning The Magicians part? Like Meenah, she's the Thief of Life, not a Witch, who would be Feferi both on Alternia and Beforus. I mean, if I remember correctly, Dirk and Roxy referred to Condescension as "The Batter witch", but she isn't ACTUALLY a Witch
This is confusing...
Here, this video I did answers your question! ua-cam.com/video/bEDauuZ9434/v-deo.html
So basically HomeStuck is The New Bible
I am the Sylph of Blood
I loved this hunk of the series though im confused as to the consistency of the fan class test as i took the jungian archetype test and recieved the innocent as my true self but taking your friends test i got the prince of the nobility archetype this concerns me( it also concerns me as my aspect test i got aquasci or life 8|)
Haha I mean, I'm not claiming the class test is canonical or particularly based off Jungian archetypes. My understanding is that the modern Pearson model of Archetypes has it's own dedicated testing instrument, but that is in no way it! A friend of mine just happened to be making a new Class test quiz, and I thought people might find it fun while they wait for the canon one :)
optimistic Duelist it was and i do find a destroyer class appropriate for me its just a fun outcome
Hey it’s me Emilio!
Did you mean to have another [Tactical Omission] at 3:38, and just missed that one?
Also, I'd like to repeat a request from another commenter on a previous video of yours: consider slowing down the edits, to give the viewer more time to absorb the images being shown and how they relate to your script.
Nope, I just missed it. And good to know that you still felt it was too fast. I'm always trying to get a sense for optimal pacing as I keep making videos, so it's handy to know which way I should be adjusting. Thanks!
And right after I made that comment, I saw where another commenter on this video said they loved the pace, so there clearly seems to be a variety of preferences for speed of presentation.
is there a chart available of the brief descriptions of the classes in this video? like the "does ____ blank for ___"? i really like the ones specifically in this video. if there's one for the aspects, too, please send
My little brother is the Bard of Void...... Should I be scared of him?
So I'm doing a bit of creative writing featuring a knight of heart, anyone have any idea on just what kinds of powers they'd have?
I’m still confused to why Heir fits the magician archetype in your opinion. Because Condey’s change of Jane’s role? That doesn’t immediately pair them up
medium.com/@RoseOfNobility/force-and-flow-know-and-change-6ea05e3e00e8
I can SERIOUSLY not tell if i am a seer or a sylph of life.
How come you censor the f-bombs but not the fairy image?
One is art, the other is language. After all l, the pen is mightier than the paintbrush.
CSDragon
They're already covered ._.
I'm apparently a lord of life. What does that mean?
Omitting Muse and Lord? :( That means we'll never get to talk about the 'Invocation to the Muse' or the connections to Classical Mythology and Creation myths.
I'll cover Lord and Muse eventually, I just felt they necessitated their own video. Too much to talk about.
I'm bard of mind
My friends are
Heir of rage
Theif of heart
Heir of doom>fucking hacker<
Witch of hope
I think our team is fuqed
I'm squinting suspiciously at the fact that one of your archetypes is "servant", and yet it does not include the Maid class.
Maids are associated with being forced into service to their Aspect early on, but successful Maids seem to always overcome that subjugation and free themselves to follow their own pursuits. Porrim talks about that dynamic pretty succintly, if I recall. In other words, for Knights and Pages, service comes naturally to their natures. For Maids it is an obstacle to be overcome, and when embraced, only on their own terms, because of their own desires.
took the classpect quiz and got maid of hope....as a boy. is that even a thing?
IIIIII have one question, c-can Knights be girls or something. Like in the comic, latula is a Knight but, it is special that latula is a Knight? Or no?
It's not particularly special. According to WoG, gender doesn't actually matter for the Class assignment, so if certain classes tip towards certain genders, that's only a bias.
optimistic Duelist oh cool. Cuz I did a godteir class survey and I came up as a Knight. So I was kinda just wondering and all.
:3
WHERE ARE THE SUBS IN SPANISH? PLS... Some words i can't understand :c
Is a male character allowed to be a witch?
Yes.
thanks mate.
1K likes: only 2 dislikes.
Anyone want to help Utopia B4s Vs GGlv50
Shit you just made me hate tavros
can you just go slower
you literaly destroyed all space from your words
I'm a prince of void