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IT'S JUST A DUCT DETECTOR
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- Опубліковано 29 лис 2023
- They really are not that bad yet so many people are totally confused by them...
Duct detector simplified - • DUCT DETECTORS EXPLAINED
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A thing which always amazes me in these videos that it seems that in USA every wire goes inside a neatly pulled conduit when surface mounted but inside dropped ceiling etc nothing is ever mounted to anything and everything just hangs freely. Same goes for most of the stuff inside those AC-unit, most of the wires just hangs freely without any fixed mounting points.
If you can't normally see it then it's not a problem.
@@SuburbanDon It's a pure mess and a big nightmare to techs whenever something must be tracked/fixed on those dropped ceilings ... electrical, water lines, ac conduits, lighting, all free-fliying around ... a very big NO-NO on Europe.
@@SuburbanDon "Not a problem"
@@rbetancor I believe it. I used to work in electronics and it's still my hobby and I could never create or leave a mess like this.
I'm guessing you're from India?
"Come with mee...and you'll bee...in a world...of OSHA violations" Got me laughing hard at 3AM.😂😂
When using that pull string, you should pull in a new one.
I can believe the alarm techs don’t carry those 5 cent resistors. They should have a ton of them.
Depends on the company, some alarm corps/techs are cheap hacks
Being a low voltage life safety and fire system tech and seeing this video is probably my favorite. Some duct detectors are an absolute pain to get to some times. So moving them is much better for everyone involved 😂
I worked in HVAC for over 20 years in a very old industrial plant . Many itinerations of equipment and controls . Three generations of building controls . Smoke detectors were forever getting contaminated and obsolete. Good luck.
“Exercise” likely refers to standard testing, called exerciser tests, that physically operate emergency systems to verify readiness. For example, standby generators/automatic transfer switches periodically conduct exerciser tests that consist of starting the generator and running it for 15-30 minutes and these also consist of activating the contactor if it is a “loaded” test.
Being unable to reach them, because they were hidden in the ceiling, they just went "fail" automatically, instead of even trying?
@@ICountFrom0 Is that a surprise?
You should pull anophter pull string in at the same time
🙋♂️ I do have a question. While it might seam dumb I was taught the only dumb question is the one you don’t ask. Since where you are at you have to deal with extremely dusty sand conditions. We all know no matter what is said or what is done , no system is 100% dust tight/prof . So my question is we are moving the smoke detector sensor from down stairs in the ceiling to up on the roof. Will or can the sand make a difference with the sensor being closer to the source of dust/sand? I do know as far as the “smoke” as long as the system is in operation mode it doesn’t matter where the smoke sensor is in the system. Thanks an appreciate your videos even an old dog like me can always learn new tricks a new things. 😊
You should call the county and ask the inspector to show you how you should get back there. Thx o you very much. I always appreciate and enjoy your videos
Those installers were really thinking about the next guy with that pull string. Its nice to see that stuff actually happen cause it never happens to me lol
I always do it - and then you have someone come along like this, who uses the string to pull a wire, and doesn't replace the string....
Very helpful explanation video on duct smoke alarm. I’m a rookie on this type of troubleshooting I just did work with a smoke alarm yesterday and I was lost. Thank you to this video I understand a lot now. I’ll keep watching your videos on this topic, you gained a new subscriber. 👍🏻👏🏻
I have an advantage with duct detectors, I worked for an alarm company before I started HVAC
Chris all along I thought you and Brian Orr from hvac school were one in the same. Dudes are extremely knowledgeable so that’s a 👍🏽👍🏽
Yeah you actually are not alone on that thought, several people have made that mistake. Bryan is a much smarter dude than I
Man you really are a savior, literally cannot find anywhere where they say you can mix up the tubes, happy that you said it lol
I just realized it's a fire alarm inside of a fancy housing with a circuit board.
Why do something simply if you can over-design it and screw the customer out of more money ?
Surprisingly enough, the housing isn't even that expensive, at least with the addressable units.
It's a smoke detector.
There always in a place you really never want to be, was always happier when the detectors were located in the unit
i
Pull extra red wire when you pull out pull string , then tape pull string on side of extra red wire , and pull back extra into attic so pull string is available for the next time .
I like your videos! It is nice to see you don't bullshit. Been subscribed almost a year . Learning a lot. Not a hvac person but where I live we have to do a lot of southern engineering! Keep up the good work! What you show us you never know how much it can help us.
Thank you from a old shade tree mechanic!
Austin...is special. They want the duct detectors parallel with the air stream, before the first tap/branch, and the sample tube MUST be the closest tube to the air stream.
Oh, and in the supply...for some reason.
the duct detector works almost identically to the water detectors we use in our Server rooms. basically a normally open contact that closes when water is detected.
how does water get into a server room?
@@cliveramsbotty6077condensate from the CRAC units
@@cliveramsbotty6077 AC units failing the drainage. Happened to a client of mine. Burned down 100k€ of hardware. We didn't choose where the AC Split unit were installed, we just found one one day (client did it on his own). Suffice to say after the failure, the AC split was moved.
@@cliveramsbotty6077Broken central heating pipes, fresh/grey/brown water pipes, cooling pipes.... Not to mention asteroid impacts.😁
@@cliveramsbotty6077 Condensate from the evaporator coil. Most common single complaint we have on package units in the cooling season. Can even have this problem with mini-splits because in a commercial setting you almost always have to pump the condensate water up to a drain.
If it was up to me, the HVAC Building Code/Federal Law would require all Duct Detectors to be mounted in the HVAC unit itself (the way Chris installed the new ones in this video) so they are EASILY accessible in the event of a problem...
Unfortunately, it isn't up to me...
Damn it!!!
😄😁😆😅😂🤣
Also, since it isn't interstate commerce, they can't really do it federally.
You pulled a new string with the red wire, right? Always pull replacement pull-string for the next pull.
If I had them I would have but I didn't this time however we will be putting some in the trucks for future use
@@HVACRVIDEOS Fire Alarm guy here. If you don't have an actual string, I usually pull in some cheap wire or scrap wire in with it. That being said I assume you would've done the same if you had it. I don't know what kind of parts or equipment Mechanical guys keep on their trucks. I am usually overflowing with small useless reels or boxes with less that 100 feet of cable in them.
It’s weird that those detectors were in the ducts since most Lennox unit have them in the unit from factory
Fire Systems Engineer here. Howdy. So according to the the local AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction) they can require whatever they want. A lot of times they require us to install our own duct detector to trip our system or monitor a conventional duct detector installed by the HVAC company. I have yet in my area to run into a situation where an HVAC unit had a pre-installed detector in the unit. I didn't even know that some HVAC units come with pre-installed Duct Smokes. Good to know!
Which Lennox line would that be?
The New Lennox RTUs with M4 Core Boards have them in return duct from factory . Also can purchase them with both installed in supply and duct
@@johnniem19thanks man
So just got the downstairs HVAC fixed yesterday after 2 1/2 years lol.. Finally got a tech that actually knew what he was doing and got it up and running while he waited for a wiring adapter kit (that may not actually be needed), and thats just from a 22 year old tech mind you, pretty impressive for his age..
A while ago i asked around why a HVAC company's employees would quote $7K to replace a high pressure switch for a residential heat pump, i finally got that answer yesterday. And it basically comes down to if the old system used R22, which after he explained it made sense. so yeah lol.
Hvacr gear makes the ladies smile
Great Video. Thank you for sharing
Did not know you liked diesel creek great info bud thanks
@HVACR VIDEOS Can you program the HVAC to accept an active low trigger signal instead of an active high to trigger the duct detector alarm contact? If you can using a Normally closed relay contact would be a better option and here is why.
When you use an active low the HVAC sees a high all the time so when it goes low in the event of an alarm condition or wire break it'll fault out. It effectively doubles as an alarm detection and diagnostic tool.
But with the normally open circuit, it is looking for a high trigger to fault out but if a wire breaks you'll never know except when a test is done.
Lastly, not sure if this is feasible since there seems to be limited space is to keep sensing voltages (below 48V) separated from higher voltages such as 110V and main Power 208/230/460V. Ideally, you'd want all three voltages separated from each other to reduce electrical noise issues.
Hope you wrote on the old detectors "NOT IN USE" across the front covers.
That was nice of you to pull in another pull string when you pulled the other one out...... lol
I found out with those duct detectors when there’s an issue we plan on upgrading the whole system. All new alarms all new wiring and all new keypads on rooftop units. We try to get them in the unit on the roof not in the drop ceilings in the drop ceilings, we put marks on the tiles and we write a map for all to view and the electrical.
Thought I had a tough day in the field today
If you pull with a string, ALWAYS run another string with the new wire, as you pull out the old string!
Duct detectors still confuse me. I will eventually understand them. Good video Chris.
Hey u got a wonkavator in that tool bag?! Good job Chris.
Love the song Chris, it's is so absolutely true
Looks like a OD! We do the same thing here in Texas.
The old d 4120 1 and 15 dasey chain make sure you break indoor blower
Only 4! trips to the customer to fix this issue... Ghehehe i feel your pain. Bill them
System sensor is very reliable
Ive actually never seen one in the unit cabinet, every one ive seen has been in supply and return plenum. After 22 years,still learning new things is my point
I like to mount them so one side is in the return and the other in the supply air. On the outside of the squirrel cage when it will fit. Higher pressure on the supply side so it is samples the air after the blower motor and belts. I see them trip from loose belts most of the time.
lol, i wish hvac guys had to deal with these. i know sometimes they are provided with new units, but once installed they are my problem. if they have to be installed, at least let the fire alarm contractor provide them with the rest of the system.
I always find myself doing someone’s else’s job just like you had to. lol.
The fact you sang the osha violation song cracked me up
this system appears to be the older type of monitoring system where each device is not assigned an address (meaning these are physical zones where a single loop is a zone instead of the newer type where all monitoring devices are on a single loop and the zone is assigned in the software). while I can't tell the exact model you have, I am guessing supervisory will trip if the detector is removed or has a broken connection/power loss (a trouble condition). basically that point is there to signal that protection is lost or the unit has been tampered with to make it inoperative.
Critter and dust will be kept out of new control box as well as wire retention, always use a wire cord grip connector .
"Will not exercise." If I were to speculate, I would think this meant that it will not go into alarm and shut down the unit when tested?
4:55 - Love the song! And quite appropriate. I'm definitely not comfortable with those cut duct straps!
By the way, the phrase isn't "nip it in the butt," it's "nip it in the bud." Essentially cutting off the bud of a flower before it has the chance to bloom. 🤪 It's a common mistake.
totally get where you are coming from when getting the other company to terminate and verify working smoke system. LIABILITY is everything when it comes to safety systems. i'm in facilities and there is a duct detector issue with a worn damper motor actuating randomly but we cant replace it. its in the alarm service contract to repair/replace those. like the fact you did all you could to streamline the work but it went out the window when the ball got dropped.
Nice work, can you share some of the wiring configuration for those smoke detectors, and how to troubleshooting them, thanks.
Here you go ua-cam.com/video/rRiym06Whzg/v-deo.htmlsi=CG7e47-uVLSYlwtN
It's true that there are a variety of duct detector designs and I've seen most of them. It's fairly important to fully understand how the unit you're working with functions. None of them are that complicated.
One difference apart from how they're wired to work is that some are ionization type smoke detectors and some are photo electric. The ionization types are more sensitive to dust accumulation than the photo electric and need to be blown out with compressed gas of some sort periodically.
Those cut duct straps could be quite risky.
Machine won't exercise. Kick it into shape 🦵🏻
I somehow knew you were going to say that the alarm company did a no-show on you. Sorry that happened. So many people are not a follow through like you and I are.
Duct detectors are often wired incorrectly. Many people don’t actually wire power, whether 24v or 115v, the damn things!
The trouble and supervisory contacts are "reversed" so that they're fail-safe - in order for the relay to send the "normal" signal, the detector must be powered up and holding the relay coil on. Usually used to signal "trouble" or "supervisory" at the fire alarm panel (either directly or by proxy via monitor module(s)). In the event of a total loss of power, or failure of the relay itself, the contacts will then switch, and send a trouble to the panel, which will still be working on battery power even if the whole building is out.
Most fire alarm panels have an internal trouble relay that works the same way, so that even if the panel itself has some sort of internal fault and loses all ability to send signals, the dialer can still get notified that "something is wrong" when the relay switches off, and call a problem in to monitoring.
We always pulled in a pull string for future use. New or old.
Have you come across BMS (Building Management System) in your line of work? BMS Equipment from companies like Honeywell, Siemens, Trend and Tridium. Honeywell funnily enough now owns both Trend and Tridium.
Boom in right at the publish!
I always love that song called OSHA violation
Amazes me when I see exhaust within 4 to 6 feet of the fresh air economizer intakes
So whats the procedure for working on RTU when these are fitted..do you have to inform the fire detection company Prior to work ?
What in the spaghetti were them conduits in the ceiling space 🤣🤣
I wouldn't want to access some of those detectors if I was loaded up with arthritis.
Not handicap accessible
Alarm companies are always a huge hassle to work with. Seems like their work requirement is "pulse"
Theres nothing more frustrating than watching another company drop the ball on a project.
Who would have ever thought there would be Duct Detectors ? 🤔👍
My new hvacr tech do your self a favor get a hvacr something
I hope you sent your Bill for your Time for the No Call-No Show to the Alarm Company...
They screwed the Proverbial Pooch so they should be paying for your wasted time...
What they mean by it won't exercise is either it won't trip when they test it or it will trip but not reset. I work for a school system and one of the ahus on the roof has a return duct smoke that won't trip, they come out annually to test, this is the third year in a row that that one duct smoke failed to "exercise" lol. Wouldn't you think that would be pretty high up on our schools list of must fix asap? We are not allowed to change them out I was told. Something with our contract I guess. Makes no sense to me but I've put in at least 15 to 20 work orders for that one and still remains. We also have a 10 inch sprinkler main backflow that's been pissing water out all over my mechanical room for 4 years now. Thing that pisses me off about that is there's a service tag on it that says pass for the last 4 years as well. How does that pass? It's leaking over 100 gallons a day easily onto my floor with hw heating pumps 3 feet away,the base of those pumps are surrounded in water 24/7. Not hurting the pumps but rotting out the base for sure. No one cares. At all
D4120 units are not UL listed for separation. There are other models that interconnect via Cat-5 cable. As a seasoned Alarm tech, I’d walk after seeing your butchered installation.
I’m always looking to improve my skills, how could I have done this job better? I’m genuinely asking for your suggestions so I can better myself?
@@HVACRVIDEOSCan a user separate a co-located
InnovairFlex model to use it as a sensor or
power board component only?
We understand that customers would have to overcome differ-
ent constraints during installation. As a result, System Sensor has
designed the detector that provides a flexible footprint for mount-
ing options for your various applications. However, the co-located
model was not designed nor tested to be used as a sensor or power
component only. Thus, System Sensor does not recommend nor
support separating the co-located model to be used as a sensor or
power board component only.
Customers can purchase the following individual components
(available only for 4-wire conventional model) as needed:
• D4S - Sensor component only
• D4P120 - Power board component only
Please contact your local rep or regional sales manager for any
additional information.
Looks like System Sensor is aware of the need for separation.
I would have just installed the entire unit where you placed the detector housing on the suction side of the fan where you had it. Only need the monitoring pair from the FA, NC pair for fan shut down and low voltage power.
This is where the argument between HVAC techs and Fire Alarm techs begins. Duct detector requirements or lack there of are dictated under Mechanical Code. NFPA72 provides a definition of duct detectors and their use, “To prevent the spread of smoke...” and when duct detectors are present and there is a building fire alarm system, then the fire alarm system shall monitor for alarm and trouble and provide a visual and audible notification of either condition at the FACP.
As for wiring these up, super simple, just need to wire for supervision as well because the alarm contacts for the fire alarm are not fail safe. Examples being cover off the detector body, loss of power, dirty detector. That being said you are a very good HVAC tech and I enjoy your videos. I could not do your job same as you couldn’t do mine. NICET Level IV Fire Alarm Systems, NICET Level 2 Special Hazards, NICET Level 2 Water Based Systems.
Our local fire alarm companies will not install the detectors they only monitor them, if the detectors need to be installed and or replaced they call us to do the work. And if you watch my other duct detector videos I talk about wiring in the trouble contacts just didn’t mention it in this one
The detectors also come factory installed already separated in several HVAC manufacturers package unit… York, and Lennox both offer factor installed d4120 detectors that are separated. I realize that this specific detector doesn’t say you can separate it but in my opinion that is just BS. If I order the Lennox factory installed detectors that ate meant to be separated they are identical to the 4120 …. But I hear and understand what you are both saying and mean no disrespect
Ive installed duct detectors, was an addressable system and had to do a class b loop which everything would have to basically be wired going back to the devices to monitor the SLC loop from and too the panel, id rather wire conventional systems which is not so bad, always pain either way you do it
Aren't you describing a class A loop? Don't class B loops require an EOL?
@@the_1drummajorno they don't require a EOLR on an addressable SLC loop.. they are monitored by the module communication, if one device is disconnected, it will send an invalid reply to the set address of the device its at, the NAC circuits are the only ones that need eolr, initiating devices such as addressable to conventional require EOLR to monitor the connected conventional device such as a pull, smoke, heat
Odd, I never got a notification for this. So here's a comment to fight the algorithm.
OMG. what a conduit mess. This would never pass a inspection here in Norway. I have never seen such a mess before anywhere....
Wire spaghetti 🍝
Do you have recommendations for where and how to look into info for duct detectors? And fire panels? Those systems freak me out. Do you put them into test anytime you do anything with the system so that they wouldnt trigger a fire department call if something went wrong? The few times I've cleaned them I have the panel put into test mode just in case because it freaks me out so much but dont know how necessary that is.
How does a pass inspection?…. doesn’t everything electrical have to have access to it, I know if it was 120 V it would
The "other side" of your 120VAC is Neutral not common.
Always tie another string to the wire you pull. That way the next guy has a string also. Might be you.
hhahahahahhaha...'a world of osha violations...." Nice WW callback sir......NJ
@20:45, not enough resistors?!?!?!? They are like 5 cents each ! It is unacceptable for them to run out of those...
bruh everyone at my shop is mystified by these things, meanwhile i have a red folder with documentation for every one i have ever installed or worked on, Even without that the terminals are labled pretty damn obviously...
What an absolute mess! 😂
Lets go Robert
Have you ever had to deal with addressable detectors?
Thumbs up
Red „Duck detector“ at first 🦆
Must think skinny thoughts!
Ladies choice
The amount of these damn duct detectors I've had to install in the last few months has been ridiculous and I've had to fix them after the electricians have played with them
Primus and the chocolate factory
No damn way that's a Lennox
Do these find many ducks in there? 🦆
hahaha i hate these things and what a location LOL geez
I think everybody should live in a bubble surrounded in water. That way nobody can start a fire. And take away all gas and electric appliances. Shit some idiot will still manage to start a fire.
WHAT?
Its a bloody disgrace thats what it is 😂
Thats literally just a normal detector in a different case
All that horrid metal conduit.🙄
ua-cam.com/video/jD83QaWy8LI/v-deo.html HAHA LOL greatest video ever, nice reference
Will not exercise means it's a lazy bum and doesn't wanna get off the couch hahaha