It’s cool how you pointed out how the frequency changes as the motor speeds up and slows down. Power plants use something similar to a circuit breaker but instead of tripping when too much power goes through it. it will trip if the frequency raises or lowers too much because the rest of the grid is connected that frequency (60hz here) and if the grid goes below 59.8hz (I think) all of them will start switching offline. That’s Part of the problem Texas had during the winter power outage.
I believe that larger and higher end generators use electronic controlled governors that “look at” output to maintain 60hz. Others just set the governor to x rpm and as load increases the throttle opens more to maintain the set rpm. The engine that you are using has a governor that maintains what you set the speed to, you just need to find the sweet spot. I’d like to see what a 30 tooth engine pulley would do.
I believe the name of the device that controls the speed of the engine is called a "engine governor ". There are a lot of ways in witch they work the most basic one is the one on a steam engine it has two large metal balls spinning the faster they spin the more centrifugal motion pulls the engine governor in and out controlling the throttle valve on the steam intake.
Hi, The Generator you have is designed for a direct drive or a PTO (Power Take Off) setup. Side loading that front shaft (without some kind of Support Bearing) will break that front Bearing.
The frequency on a gas generator set is maintained by the mechanical governor inside the engine; it's essentially a fly weight setup on the inside and then some springs to balance it out on the outside, the net result is that the balance of forces between the fly weights and the springs determines the RPM of the engine, too fast and the fly weights pull the throttle closed, too slow and the springs open it up. Typically there is a screw on the throttle linkage that allows fine adjustment of the governor tension to set the desired engine RPM, which is usually set inline with the engines power band. In addition to all that, there is usually a solenoid that forces the throttle to the idle setting when their is no load on the generator to safe fuel, I'm not sure how it sense that though.
The engine governor lever on the side of the engine crankcase likely has holes at different distances from the lever axis shaft, to provide more or less force to a linkage rod that operates the throttle butterfly on the carb. A governor works to close the throttle by opposing a spring tension to open the throttle fully. The tension on that throttle opening spring is adjustable to set the rpm at which the governor force from the running engine developed on linkage rod from the governor lever is equal to the tension force of the throttle opening spring. Increasing rpm of the engine increases force on the linkage causing closing of the throttle to reduce the rpm until rpm lowers to balance the forces between the governor linkage rod and the tension on the throttle opening spring. The governor works as a mechanical regulator to maintain constant engine rpm under different loads, reducing or increasing throttle as needed to maintain the set rpm. The mechanical governor output lever and carburetor linkage and spring are a manufacturer matched system using parts that should work correctly if the engine loading is within the design limits and the mixtures are set correctly on the carburetor and the fuel and other operating parameters are normal. The throttle speed lever applies increasing tension that works to open the throttle fully while it is the governor that actively closes the throttle by its separate rpm increased force on a linkage rod to the carburetor butterfly. There are usually several springs and linkages and if any springs are missing or slipped from their attachment locations the governor will not work properly. These mechanical governors work best in the middle range of power where the throttle has most range of response. A 1.3 to 1 ratio or 1.4 to 1 for the engine to generator would seem about right. Larger pulleys and an idler pulley would eliminate the belt drumming.
I believe on a grid tie inverter it’s called an island protect that senses if there’s electricity coming in from the outlet before putting power back into the grid. I’ve got one running off of solar panels.
At 3:40 you are incorrect, your engine as well as basically all "small engines" has a centrifugal regulator(Regulator arm is clearly seen over the pull starter in the original video, the sound when you change the RPM makes it very obvious for me too) integrated into the engine. This same system is used on all generators I've operated(No inverter ones), but the generators for obvious reasons doesn't have a "user controlled" "RPM-lever". I'm quite sure your engine when running with the "RPM-lever" at max setting should run at around 3600 RPM(There is usually a screw for adjusting the max position), this is standard on many small engines and things that uses them. By the way some months ago I saw a UA-cam-video about adjust the Hz of a generator and the RPM(And Hz) got slightly higher when under load(Not sure how much load it was.), I suspect that the higher airflow around the more open throttle valve(After the regulator dealt with the initial RPM dip) may try to force the throttle more open. But yeah this behaviour is quite unintuitive to be honest! Logically the RPM should simply just drop a tiny bit with load and the regulator just holds the throttle a bit more open at that lower RPM. Wonder if your engine have this weird behaviour? Edit : Apparently it is called a "centrifugal governor" in English and not "centrifugal regulator", but it is called centrifugalregulator in Swedish and I'm a Swede so... Yeah...
Cool - would like to see how well various electronics work at different frequencies. I guess old record players, cassette tape decks, clocks and things would run fast or slow. And curious to see how electronics would do - ie just how dependent their design is on the source frequency.
I have always assumed that they used an air-vane governor, like your lawnmower, or something similar. Your linear actuator idea would be a great alternative. An F/V converter, connected to a PID could easily control the throttle.
I always have a hard time understanding how the ground wire works when there are different references, if you ever have the opportunity to go into detail on that on a video I would love to learn. Awesome video, great insights!
First a bit of background thinking? The concept of "ground" is a stumbling block when you are dealing with sensitive instrumentation. Here's the thing: there is no single "ground' as we're taught by the tradesmen. That is, even in the ground (the earth) itself, if there is a flow of current, there is necessarily a voltage along with that current. This means what you thought was a zero, is now a tiny number. Perhaps a big number depending on the impedance through which the current flows. It's just Ohms law, but with the recognition that even within a block of copper, if there are currents within the block, there will be voltages across it in the direction of the current. Copper is very conductive, so the voltages will be very small, but they will be there! Now, considser a a circuit built with wires, all having different diameters and lengths and a "shape" of your network of ground wires. If you can get access to a really really good high sensitivity differential input osciliscope, wow, this will open your eyes. It is not trivial to get true measurements, but if you can do it just once it's worth seeing. Consider a circuit with a microprocessor energizing a decent sized relay. At the moment the relay is energized (and deenergized) a big change ocurrs in the current. If this current is shared by the "ground" of your uP, you can trigger all sorts of anomalous behavior. Somebody needs to do a video on this, it screws up all sorts of new engineers. Ground is not ground!
Most modern generators are inverter devices - generating the correct frequency is electronic, regardless of generator speed. The same applies to Grid Tie Inverters.
Try it off grid thats how I use my generator as back up we turn off the income grid and then we are not back feeding into grid! Works great for our use!
If you want to power electronic devices - USE the generator to charge a battery bank connected to a split phase inverter - then you will not fry your electronics.
1) at 2:28, if the output (leaving the alternator) is full-wave rectified DC then its zero hz. !!!!!! 2) at 2:47, yup. there is a MECHANICAL LOAD, in an alternator; if/when a load is present in the output circuit.!!! consequently, the under-LOAD engine rpms Must be 'matched' to the loaded rpms of the alt. 3) at 6:14, WRONG. it is CORRECT for a prime mover (gas OR electric) to have MECHANICAL ADVANTAGE over the load; that means REDUCTION, not rpm step-up.!!! 4) at 7:00, 10:00, yup. volts are NOT power.!!!
Hi , The Engine has a Mechanical Governor. (!!! Must Maintain 60 HERTZ ! _ In the U.S.A. ! 50 HERTZ IN EURO ) !!!! Your needs For Power, You Have to Size/ Capacity ( Continuus KW Power ,,, NOT PEAK POWER KW OUTPUT ! ) To run what You What To Run . If You Run at a " Lower Hz You Are Going To Burn UP Something !!!!! Low Mega Hertz = Low Voltage!!!! Electronic Equipment ( Really Anything Today can not Tolerate This) . Remember ! It Takes Three (3) Times The Power TO START A MOTOR . There are " Power Requirement Charts" on the Internet ( Also Most Generators Sold ) . ! "Peak Rated Power " Is that Split Second Of Power TO START ANYTHING ! Not CONTINUE RUNNING !
Then nothing new would ever exist anywhere. If one already knows what will happen, it's not new. Best example I can think of is all the fusion reactors coming online.
It’s cool how you pointed out how the frequency changes as the motor speeds up and slows down. Power plants use something similar to a circuit breaker but instead of tripping when too much power goes through it. it will trip if the frequency raises or lowers too much because the rest of the grid is connected that frequency (60hz here) and if the grid goes below 59.8hz (I think) all of them will start switching offline. That’s Part of the problem Texas had during the winter power outage.
I believe that larger and higher end generators use electronic controlled governors that “look at” output to maintain 60hz. Others just set the governor to x rpm and as load increases the throttle opens more to maintain the set rpm. The engine that you are using has a governor that maintains what you set the speed to, you just need to find the sweet spot. I’d like to see what a 30 tooth engine pulley would do.
I believe the name of the device that controls the speed of the engine is called a "engine governor ". There are a lot of ways in witch they work the most basic one is the one on a steam engine it has two large metal balls spinning the faster they spin the more centrifugal motion pulls the engine governor in and out controlling the throttle valve on the steam intake.
This has way too little views considering the quality. Thanks for making this!
Hi, The Generator you have is designed for a direct drive or a PTO (Power Take Off) setup.
Side loading that front shaft (without some kind of Support Bearing) will break that front Bearing.
The frequency on a gas generator set is maintained by the mechanical governor inside the engine; it's essentially a fly weight setup on the inside and then some springs to balance it out on the outside, the net result is that the balance of forces between the fly weights and the springs determines the RPM of the engine, too fast and the fly weights pull the throttle closed, too slow and the springs open it up. Typically there is a screw on the throttle linkage that allows fine adjustment of the governor tension to set the desired engine RPM, which is usually set inline with the engines power band.
In addition to all that, there is usually a solenoid that forces the throttle to the idle setting when their is no load on the generator to safe fuel, I'm not sure how it sense that though.
Awesome, thanks!
The engine governor lever on the side of the engine crankcase likely has
holes at different distances from the lever axis shaft, to provide more or
less force to a linkage rod that operates the throttle butterfly on the carb.
A governor works to close the throttle by opposing a spring tension to open
the throttle fully. The tension on that throttle opening spring is adjustable to
set the rpm at which the governor force from the running engine developed on
linkage rod from the governor lever is equal to the tension force of the throttle
opening spring. Increasing rpm of the engine increases force on the linkage
causing closing of the throttle to reduce the rpm until rpm lowers to balance
the forces between the governor linkage rod and the tension on the throttle
opening spring. The governor works as a mechanical regulator to maintain
constant engine rpm under different loads, reducing or increasing throttle
as needed to maintain the set rpm. The mechanical governor output lever
and carburetor linkage and spring are a manufacturer matched system
using parts that should work correctly if the engine loading is within the
design limits and the mixtures are set correctly on the carburetor and the
fuel and other operating parameters are normal. The throttle speed lever
applies increasing tension that works to open the throttle fully while it
is the governor that actively closes the throttle by its separate rpm
increased force on a linkage rod to the carburetor butterfly. There are
usually several springs and linkages and if any springs are missing
or slipped from their attachment locations the governor will not work
properly. These mechanical governors work best in the middle range
of power where the throttle has most range of response. A 1.3 to 1
ratio or 1.4 to 1 for the engine to generator would seem about right.
Larger pulleys and an idler pulley would eliminate the belt drumming.
Wow that belt was whipping around lol. I was waiting for BUILDs2 to come out when I seen the first video.
I believe on a grid tie inverter it’s called an island protect that senses if there’s electricity coming in from the outlet before putting power back into the grid. I’ve got one running off of solar panels.
I am waiting for old stuffs to test on it on different frequencies.
At 3:40 you are incorrect, your engine as well as basically all "small engines" has a centrifugal regulator(Regulator arm is clearly seen over the pull starter in the original video, the sound when you change the RPM makes it very obvious for me too) integrated into the engine.
This same system is used on all generators I've operated(No inverter ones), but the generators for obvious reasons doesn't have a "user controlled" "RPM-lever".
I'm quite sure your engine when running with the "RPM-lever" at max setting should run at around 3600 RPM(There is usually a screw for adjusting the max position), this is standard on many small engines and things that uses them.
By the way some months ago I saw a UA-cam-video about adjust the Hz of a generator and the RPM(And Hz) got slightly higher when under load(Not sure how much load it was.), I suspect that the higher airflow around the more open throttle valve(After the regulator dealt with the initial RPM dip) may try to force the throttle more open.
But yeah this behaviour is quite unintuitive to be honest!
Logically the RPM should simply just drop a tiny bit with load and the regulator just holds the throttle a bit more open at that lower RPM.
Wonder if your engine have this weird behaviour?
Edit : Apparently it is called a "centrifugal governor" in English and not "centrifugal regulator", but it is called centrifugalregulator in Swedish and I'm a Swede so... Yeah...
Interesting! Well we'll see how effective it is when I load it up! 👍
Cool - would like to see how well various electronics work at different frequencies. I guess old record players, cassette tape decks, clocks and things would run fast or slow. And curious to see how electronics would do - ie just how dependent their design is on the source frequency.
I have always assumed that they used an air-vane governor, like your lawnmower, or something similar. Your linear actuator idea would be a great alternative. An F/V converter, connected to a PID could easily control the throttle.
I always have a hard time understanding how the ground wire works when there are different references, if you ever have the opportunity to go into detail on that on a video I would love to learn. Awesome video, great insights!
First a bit of background thinking? The concept of "ground" is a stumbling block when you are dealing with sensitive instrumentation. Here's the thing: there is no single "ground' as we're taught by the tradesmen. That is, even in the ground (the earth) itself, if there is a flow of current, there is necessarily a voltage along with that current. This means what you thought was a zero, is now a tiny number. Perhaps a big number depending on the impedance through which the current flows. It's just Ohms law, but with the recognition that even within a block of copper, if there are currents within the block, there will be voltages across it in the direction of the current. Copper is very conductive, so the voltages will be very small, but they will be there!
Now, considser a a circuit built with wires, all having different diameters and lengths and a "shape" of your network of ground wires. If you can get access to a really really good high sensitivity differential input osciliscope, wow, this will open your eyes. It is not trivial to get true measurements, but if you can do it just once it's worth seeing. Consider a circuit with a microprocessor energizing a decent sized relay. At the moment the relay is energized (and deenergized) a big change ocurrs in the current. If this current is shared by the "ground" of your uP, you can trigger all sorts of anomalous behavior. Somebody needs to do a video on this, it screws up all sorts of new engineers. Ground is not ground!
Also would be interesting to see how grid tie inverters stay in sync with grid.
Most modern generators are inverter devices - generating the correct frequency is electronic, regardless of generator speed.
The same applies to Grid Tie Inverters.
Try it off grid thats how I use my generator as back up we turn off the income grid and then we are not back feeding into grid! Works great for our use!
Engine has goverenor built in!!
I'd like to see a decent size flywheel added to a generator. The drop on starts should basically not exist.
The govenor on the engine regulated the speed. A electronic govenor would probably be better.
I really appreciate your videos. (Both channels). If I can ever afford to support you on Patreon, I will
Wait are there really no comments yet? This is unexpected.
If you want to power electronic devices - USE the generator to charge a battery bank connected to a split phase inverter - then you will not fry your electronics.
Thank you, really, for your global thinking. It gives me hope to hear Americans actually acknowledging the rest of the planet.
1) at 2:28, if the output (leaving the alternator) is full-wave rectified DC then its zero hz. !!!!!!
2) at 2:47, yup. there is a MECHANICAL LOAD, in an alternator; if/when a load is present in the output circuit.!!! consequently, the under-LOAD engine rpms Must be 'matched' to the loaded rpms of the alt.
3) at 6:14, WRONG. it is CORRECT for a prime mover (gas OR electric) to have MECHANICAL ADVANTAGE over the load; that means REDUCTION, not rpm step-up.!!!
4) at 7:00, 10:00, yup. volts are NOT power.!!!
Hi , The Engine has a Mechanical Governor. (!!! Must Maintain 60 HERTZ ! _ In the U.S.A. ! 50 HERTZ IN EURO ) !!!! Your needs For Power, You Have to Size/ Capacity ( Continuus KW Power ,,, NOT PEAK POWER KW OUTPUT ! ) To run what You What To Run . If You Run at a " Lower Hz You Are Going To Burn UP Something !!!!! Low Mega Hertz = Low Voltage!!!! Electronic Equipment ( Really Anything Today can not
Tolerate This) .
Remember ! It Takes Three (3) Times The Power TO START A MOTOR .
There are " Power Requirement Charts" on the Internet ( Also Most Generators Sold ) .
! "Peak Rated Power " Is that Split Second Of Power TO START ANYTHING ! Not CONTINUE RUNNING !
If you don't know what your doing, then you probably shouldn't be doing it.
Then nothing new would ever exist anywhere. If one already knows what will happen, it's not new. Best example I can think of is all the fusion reactors coming online.